assassination

[uncut echo]

Living is a healer mechanic

[static glacier]

the issue with being tanky is this

it's only valuable up to the point where you can actually survive

past that further tankiness has little value, I guess it lets your healer dps a bit more

[royal lantern]

eh, not even that much tbh

[grizzled jay]

warlock not dying is also a pretty big factor into why they are stackable for prog. they don't just randomly die a lot of times.

[royal lantern]

like, you gotta remember

when people drop, healers will use aoe heals regardless

[static glacier]

in raid it's different, im talking about m+

[royal lantern]

no matter if everyone is at 40% or if 3people are at 50% and the rest is 40%

[static glacier]

in raid being omega tanky is super good, lets you deal with certain mechanics / saves mana for healers / saves defensives for hardest phases of the fight where others might have to blow them early etc

[oak sky]

Lone wolf is fire wtf fuck pets

[royal lantern]

m+ is funny aswell, cus healer dont even have THAT much healing requirment

its like

low keys are hell cus people are apes

[grizzled jay]

add a talent that makes assassination not use bleeds or poisons

[oak sky]

Theres more in some of the new keys for sure

[royal lantern]

15-20 is most easy cus people actually kick stuff

[static glacier]

he said conceptually, gameplay wise it's the best thing ever. but the concept of a hunter without a pet is a little sadge

[royal lantern]

25+ it doesnt matter again cus people get 1shot killed

[nocturne current]

low and high

[static glacier]

in sl legit anything below 15 was cursed

[grizzled jay]

bro people don't stop being apes just cause they doin 25s

[static glacier]

the difficulty curve for keys is a bell shape

[royal lantern]

like, high keys is funny in a healer PoV, you can only heal un-avoidable dmg anyway (and thats throwing aoe heals into the group) cus avoidable stuff just means somone is dead

[oak sky]

I dont really agree necessarily, the gimmicks are big pet hunter, melee hunter, no pet hunter

[static glacier]

well reverse bell

[static glacier]

MM was never no pet hunter, it was sniper hunter

they just chose to make it that thankfully

[grizzled jay]

MM's identity for like 4 expansions was "sit still to deal increased damage". Then randomly they decided "let's just move that to "never have a pet" xd"

[static glacier]

thank you devs for lone wolf and lonely winter 🙏

[royal lantern]

all wow players are apes and sniff glue

every single one of them

us included

[grizzled jay]

especially RWF raiders

[royal lantern]

only WHAT kind of ape and the kind of glue we sniff is different

[nocturne current]

I can make you a best off +25 fails

from people dying to spear in grimrails

to ppl dying to tower in junkyard

[royal lantern]

tbf, that fking tower in junkyard endboss is buggy af

[oak sky]

I would say in general a higher % of players in high keys know the dungeon mechanics

[royal lantern]

i had it multiple times that i run up, start hacking, and after ~10seconds i get tp down without a bot near me

[oak sky]

Doesnt mean they never fuck them up

[royal lantern]

^

doing mistakes is normal

except for me, im perfect

[nocturne current]

same

[oak sky]

Low keys people just dont know whats going on because they never get punished for anything

[silver mango]

I see this Exsanguinate - DO NOT CAST IT DURING DEATHMARK in the pins

[nocturne current]

goes +25 lower, sry dont know this theater

[silver mango]

why no

[burnt latch]

Ask me any mechanic, I wont know how it works

[silver mango]

why not*

[royal lantern]

-sub and outlaw rogues when they skip cheat death for 0,0002%dps and suddenly are dead all the time

[burnt latch]

mechanics are for casuals

[oak sky]

[royal lantern]

[uncut echo]

Deathmark is a bleed @silver mango

[royal lantern]

cus you half the duration of deathmark

[uncut echo]

Exsang halves bleeds

[royal lantern]

you litearlly take 50%of your major dmg cd's duration away

exsang btw

nice ability desing

[silver mango]

shouldnt it make it do the same damage but just faster

[royal lantern]

now look at kingsbane

or like, anything that involves deathmark

its not about the dmg only lmao

you also have insane energy reg with it etc...

and you cut all of that in half

to do the same dmg

[balmy condor]

yeah, the deathmark dot that's worth 1% of your dps does the same damage but faster

[royal lantern]

cus exsang just means "you do same dmg faster"

[balmy condor]

but you also lose the duplicated bleeds

and the duplicated poison

[silver mango]

the duplicated bleeds give you more energy?

[royal lantern]

yes? thats how venomous wounds work?

[silver mango]

i thought it just duplicated the damage and not the actual debuff

[uncut echo]

Venomous wounfd

[balmy condor]

they are 2 indentical copies

[royal lantern]

it duplicates the dots with all the benefits

[balmy condor]

2 garrotes, 2 ruptures

exactly the same

[silver mango]

oh i see

ty

[uncut echo]

Yeyeyeye

[hollow river]

We can press a button incorrectly to actively negate a bunch of our damage

[balmy condor]

and just so we're aware exactly how bad it is to exsang during deathmark

[hollow river]

[balmy condor]

it is worse to exsang in deathmark

than it would be to simply never press exsang

[hollow river]

Even just once over 5min?

[silver mango]

is it even worth taking?

[royal lantern]

nice ability btw

[balmy condor]

exsang is a capstone level talent

[uncut echo]

Exsang is our best talent point

[hollow river]

[uncut echo]

Or close to

[royal lantern]

you will play the abomination that is exsang in every content, no matter the situation

🙂

[balmy condor]

it's the 3rd strongest talent on the entire tree

[oak sky]

Whats better

[burnt latch]

Gotcha, never press deathmark

[oak sky]

Vw and deathmark?

[balmy condor]

kingsbane and dtb

[oak sky]

Oh duh

[silver mango]

[royal lantern]

the real 2000IQ play

[hollow river]

[silver mango]

are you supposed to exsang before deathmark

[balmy condor]

well I guess deathmark is also slightly stronger

[hollow river]

Y

[silver mango]

or just use at a completely different time

[balmy condor]

so it's the 4th best

[uncut echo]

Just before

[hollow river]

You use it on CD

[balmy condor]

yeh you use before in opener

[hollow river]

As long as you don’t press it during DM

[balmy condor]

and then on cooldown forever

[silver mango]

okay thank you

[royal lantern]

on pull you use it directly before you use dm, after that on CD

[hollow river]

My first gcd is going to be exsanguinate because, you know, logic.

It can’t be a bad ability if it does nothing

[royal lantern]

how much fun is it to make sims with and without exsang whisp

cus you know that a good amount of people will probs refuse to pick that shit talent

[balmy condor]

not very

[royal lantern]

god

cant wait for 10.1 and it getting removed

[sour sand]

lol

[royal lantern]

DONT TAKE MY HOPE AWAY

[hollow river]

Sub has embraced secret tech being good. Embrace exsanguinate

[quaint sequoia]

here's to hoping it's not that long even

[royal lantern]

sec tech is a dmg finisher

[nocturne current]

[sour sand]

you can use sec tech once each dance window

[nocturne current]

u guys like hemo

[royal lantern]

its litearlly just "it does dmg, we use it cus it does more dmg then eviscerate"

thats not even close to the same thing that exsang is lol

[nocturne current]

only i have secret techs

[torn atlas]

Are people actually expecting it to be removed at this point, or just copium?

[uncut echo]

If we take exsang in all forms of content, turning it into your bleeds do their damage 15% faster would be perfect

[sour sand]

does the 45 sec exang line up with anything?

[torn atlas]

Echoing reprimand

[sour sand]

oh god

[royal lantern]

eh, realz IS aware that the talent is controversial to extremely hated

so dunno

dev is aware gives some hope

[torn atlas]

With launch in 3 days tho?

[royal lantern]

thats why i said 10.1

🙂

🙂

[uncut echo]

No it wont be launch removed

[torn atlas]

They've been aware it's controversial since alpha

[uncut echo]

Since legion my king

[royal lantern]

its been controversial since legion

[nocturne current]

im sure realz is using it

[torn atlas]

So it's all cope

[royal lantern]

its just that for the majority of alpha/beta exsang was somewhat of a meme

and ignored

it a more recent development where we realised that its gonna be a must pick for everything

[torn atlas]

Or is the expectation that tuning will happen or 10.1 tierset will make it less desirable?

[balmy condor]

we have no expectation

[sour sand]

didn't he also make momentum a must pick for everything for DH

the one that DH's hated

[uncut echo]

Way less eggregious now

[torn atlas]

Yeah that's what I was looking for 🤣
Wasn't sure if people serious or memeing

[royal lantern]

im peak coping

[sour sand]

well at least neither are as bad as mindspike

[balmy condor]

I think the general vibe in here is rework or delete, but we're just crying about it

we have no idea what blizzard wants

but I think it's pretty fucking ridiculous to just have a capstone in the 4th row of your talents

and considering assassination is kinda overtuned atm

[nocturne current]

The only I think I don't like about Exsa, honestly, is just the fact that I don't like to have an ability that speeds down the bleeds that I just put down on the target. I like the bleeds lasting as long as possible so I can finally throw some fun envenoms or whatever.

Nothing like that feeling of refreshing pandemic and knowing you don't have to worry about bleeds for another 30 sec

• all the snapshotting bullshit associated with it that fries my brain midfight

[balmy condor]

if we get nerfs and exsang isn't on the nerf list

[royal lantern]

dreadblades for the majority of alpha/beta

[balmy condor]

I'm gonna fucking lose my shit

[uncut echo]

Overtuned is a bit high brow

We're on the high end of st

Not overtuned

[nocturne current]

Make Exsanguinate extend bleeds or some other shit instead

[spice spire]

Please no

[royal lantern]

please yes

[balmy condor]

we're like 10-15% ahead of most specs in the game. I guess if that's "high end" to you, then sure

[spice spire]

I don’t want him to lose his shit?

[uncut echo]

Most, but not all

[thorny pond]

what does "exsanguinate" mean on dictionary.com?

[uncut echo]

We're not EN shadow priest

Or CN Fire

[balmy condor]

that is a terrible take

[sour sand]

lol

damn gonna start practicing on beta assasin

[balmy condor]

"look, there's like 2 other specs that are also overtuned, that means none of them are"

thats stupid

[uncut echo]

It's not two

???

[grizzled jay]

i hope sin ST gets nerfed but Exsang gets buffed in compensation

[balmy condor]

I mean it pretty much is at this point

[royal lantern]

i hope you step on lego and burn your mouth when eating something hot

[nocturne current]

wanna bet thats whats gonna happen

[uncut echo]

If that's the case then I'll concede. But from initial reports we were higher end, not anomalously so

[balmy condor]

assassination, havoc and.................????????

[sour sand]

The code in the faq dont work for assassin

the ST codes

[royal lantern]

but yeha, assa st will get a small hit down

[uncut echo]

It was fire, boomie and demo

[dire lake]

Poor Whispyr is getting a stroke if that happens

[sour sand]

Fuu sheet

[balmy condor]

fire is unplayable what

[uncut echo]

Was

[nocturne current]

undertuned boomies

[uncut echo]

W a s

[balmy condor]

okay

so why

are you saying specs

that aren't good

in a discussion about specs that are good

[sour sand]

somsone update the code

[royal lantern]

problem is gonna be: will the ST it has then still make it a worthwhile pick, or is it not relevant then cus you could also just play sub/outlaw who then do probs almost the same st without the aoe problems

[balmy condor]

you have the sheet in front of you, read the bottom of it

[oak sky]

Isnt unholy good

[uncut echo]

Correct, but not as good as sin and co

[balmy condor]

it's not dummy good

[uncut echo]

It's high end about the outliers

Below*

The outliers

[sour sand]

aww shit echoing reprimand screw that

[nocturne current]

indeed

[royal lantern]

ER and exsang for all content

[sour sand]

alrightg back to sub

[royal lantern]

[dire lake]

Back to outlaw I guess

[uncut echo]

I'm with you Whispyr. I can agree the spec needs a slight pat on the wrist

[royal lantern]

no controversial things btw

[uncut echo]

But I'm hoping it's exsang along with you but we know it won't be

[royal lantern]

agree aswell, but it also need some help with other stuff

[balmy condor]

literally if exsang just gets dragged back into line with other talents

we would be fine

[uncut echo]

Correct

But it won't

[balmy condor]

idk bout that

[uncut echo]

I'm saying it won't because I'm complete doomer over it

[balmy condor]

I don't think blizzard is comfortable with a 9% talent hanging out on the middle of the tree

[uncut echo]

And I wanna be pleasantly surprised

They'll revert zoldyck and nerf vw to 3 energy

Inc

[balmy condor]

exsang 2 min cooldown, kingsbane 10% buff

and then no touchy

[spice spire]

[uncut echo]

2 min exsang cd?

So we repeat opener every dm?

[balmy condor]

how else you gonna nerf exsang

[uncut echo]

I think I like this.

Delete it

Lol

[balmy condor]

3 days before expansion yeh

[royal lantern]

15min cd

[uncut echo]

Yeah

[royal lantern]

so you never touch it after the opener again

[silver mango]

u can only use it on pull

[uncut echo]

3 days before launch

[balmy condor]

let me sim how good exsang is with a 2 min cd

[dire lake]

Make exsang like that: you press it, you die

[uncut echo]

We have time

It'd probably be absurd

Because it's paired with dm

[spice spire]

DN*

[royal lantern]

suck DN

[solid mica]

Warlocks had their time in the sun now its ours, #nonerfgang

[dark token]

Make exang speed up bleeds by 10000% but it's 1 hr cd

Use it to drop some insta bleeds in opener and forget about it for the rest of the fight or dungeon

[spice spire]

Say less pal

But gimme a week, it’s a holy month

[nocturne current]

We heard all Rogues feedback regarding the Exsanguinate talent, so we decided to revise this mixed feelings talent with something the players might enjoy more.

Thus, we're have replaced it instead with the Expose Armor ability.

[dark token]

New talent: exanguishate. 37 second CD. Speeds up bleed tick rate by 25%

[quaint sequoia]

I would rather be bottom dps than having to use exsang tbh

[solid mica]

Do you have any ballpark idea of how much ST you would lose in an m+ setup taking 2 shivs and ttb over blindside and doomblade whispyr?

[dark token]

Hmm perhaps sim it

[solid mica]

Now THAT is a fried take

Didnt think beta sims worked unless you did some advanced stuff i definetely dont know how to do, at work as well

[uncut echo]

Turn it into a passive

[solid mica]

Dont really need like an actual concrete number just a ballpark

[uncut echo]

It's literally less bloat for buttons

[solid mica]

Like is it terrible

[nocturne current]

I guess it depends on the week and how much uptime u have on execute

i cant see being much of a deal in fortified

[balmy condor]

losing blindside means you lose kingsbane so I'm gonna say like probably 10+%

[sour sand]

RIP

[nocturne current]

probably even more for high tyrannical no?

[balmy condor]

yeh

that's the + part

[uncut echo]

You get a result on the 2m exang whispyr?

[balmy condor]

I'm double checking the numbers

cause I'm struggling to believe the result

but I guess this is accurate

exsang is worth more than kingsbane smile

[nocturne current]

Jeez.

[solid mica]

I meant instead of that take ttb on ur way to kingsbane or am i missing something

[uncut echo]

Jfc we're almost hitting 100k

[balmy condor]

oh yeh that's like maybe a couple %

[balmy condor]

high end

[uncut echo]

Btw

Nah you're right mb

[balmy condor]

:)

kisses and hugs

[solid mica]

Thanks, was thinking maybe it would be worth for more prio in actual packs and a little more juice on kb but a little worse kn straight st

[uncut echo]

3.5% is a nice nerf tho

[balmy condor]

yeh it's still 4% better than any alternative

[uncut echo]

And it smooths out rotation?

[balmy condor]

exsanguinate is so fucking cracked man

lets find out when it's bad

[uncut echo]

Like my issues with exsang begin and end with fitting it in anyhwere else outside of opener

Sim it at 50% increase, 2 min cd

[balmy condor]

the speed increase is not easy to sim

[uncut echo]

Ahh

[balmy condor]

that's a difficult number to change

[uncut echo]

I see

[balmy condor]

I can try it though

and see if it puked

[uncut echo]

No worries if you can't

[balmy condor]

very cool

[uncut echo]

LOL

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[balmy condor]

1 cast of exsang better than a legendary from shadowlands

[uncut echo]

I'M CRYING HOLY SHIT

[balmy condor]

super sick

[drifting cloud]

how is that even possible

[dire lake]

No way

[balmy condor]

295690

dont mind that

[spice spire]

@balmy condor do not sim this, but grudgematch (4p) versus Exsang. But not on dm bleed itself

Am I fried

[balmy condor]

how do I add old tier bonuses in

[nocturne current]

tag wow dev here now, fast

[drifting cloud]

youre approaching the deep end again

[spice spire]

Please don’t sim it

[uncut echo]

Bruh 4pc would be absurd

If it worked

It's exsang how we want it

[solid mica]

Gettin' nerfed aint nice, starting to sound like OL chat begging for DB nerf till they got it. Now its just not good and nothing else changed besides less dispatch dam

[balmy condor]

I don't think the spell ID's would even point to the right spells

[uncut echo]

Have you ever casted exsang

[balmy condor]

help

[uncut echo]

Nah

NAH

[balmy condor]

I'm telling you

[dire lake]

Pls stop this madness

[balmy condor]

exsang is fucking stupid dumb strong

it's a capstone

[dusk turret]

Lmaooo

[uncut echo]

I mean I'd ping realz my guy

[dusk turret]

Rip

[uncut echo]

Lmfao

We made our own nerf

[solid mica]

Yes

[balmy condor]

we nerfed exsang in 2 places and it's still not good enough

[uncut echo]

I'm sorry for your loss

[balmy condor]

let me make sure that these are correct

cause like

wtf

[uncut echo]

Dumb question, but do you think you could build a creeping death sim to satisfy my curiosity? Pls don't bother if it's too much work

I've never fucked with sims like that before

[quaint sequoia]

what's creeping death?

[balmy condor]

I'm assuming not a rogue skill

[uncut echo]

Affliction talent that causes their dots to expire 15% faster

[balmy condor]

yeh

that's not gonna work chief

[uncut echo]

Np

I advocate for exsang to be turned into that

[green harbor]

feral druid got a talent nerfed due to it's position in the tree, maybe the same happens here

[quaint sequoia]

why do ppl want our bleed to run faster

[uncut echo]

More dam

[quaint sequoia]

reapplying bleeds aint fun

[uncut echo]

More energy

[celest helm]

we dont need more energy

[uncut echo]

Correct

But we also don't need esang either

But here we are

[balmy condor]

I mean..... 2.85 casts in a 5 min sim, 2 min cooldown, same usage as deathmark

[quaint sequoia]

they can increase tickrate without lowering duration tho

[balmy condor]

takes 12 seconds for the exsang dot to run out

that's 24/2

24 is max pandemic garrote

hmmmm

[uncut echo]

So logically 18 seconds right

[balmy condor]

oh wait no this doesn't vanish on pull

it's 18 seconds

the 50% worked

[uncut echo]

So its stronger

Than sims reported

Because it didnt imp gar for dm

[balmy condor]

yeh so this is doing what it's supposed to

no its working as intended

[uncut echo]

Nice

[balmy condor]

the original profile doesn't vanish on pull either

so the comparison is apples to apples

[uncut echo]

It vanish garggote exsang dm right?

[balmy condor]

that's what we're recommending

[uncut echo]

Ye

Makes sense

[balmy condor]

but technically if you're squeezing the last bit of juice out

it's not optimal

but then it desyncs everything and causes a mess

[uncut echo]

Ye nty fuck that

[balmy condor]

what if it's 40%

where's the breakpoint

oh

it's lower than I thought

[thorny pond]

what is it boy?

[dire lake]

25%?

[balmy condor]

well 30% was still 0.4% better

so now I need to run the sim again

[dire lake]

[balmy condor]

looks like it's around 25%

maybe like 22%

[thorny pond]

oh goody, the gap is closing

[balmy condor]

but yeah,

at 30% speed 2 min cooldown

you would still perma pick exsang

[ember mural]

[balmy condor]

super cool and epic

[thorny pond]

Did you factor in the rube constant, Whispyr?

[balmy condor]

I did not

but I did factor in the real tears I'm crying on my keyboard

[simple hornet]

oh are we trying to see how they could nerf exsang to make it in line with alternatives?

[thorny pond]

If you factor that in, then the trolls leave you alone forever because it'll show exsang is bad

[dire lake]

Looks like a reroll angle at this point

[balmy condor]

yes

[thorny pond]

just multiple the exsang coeff by -1

[balmy condor]

the answer is you either make it like a 10 min cooldown

or you slow down the effect to about 25% with a 2 min cooldown

[simple hornet]

what if they make it refresh your bleeds and then accelerate

copium

[balmy condor]

wdym

like it maxes the duration

on its own?

[simple hornet]

yeah

ahaha

[balmy condor]

we're trying to nerf the ability bud

not buff

[simple hornet]

ik just making jokes, interested to see what they do end up doing

just thinking what they could do to make exsang not uncomfortable to play

[fleet whale]

Well i guess a simple nerf would be to make exsang just 50% bleed increase

[simple hornet]

(aside from nerfing it to allow alternatives)

[balmy condor]

yeh but that wouldn't actually do anything

[fleet whale]

another move that i'm sure would be unpopular on this disc
is to make deathmark a choice node with vendetta
if deathmark is making exsang strong

[balmy condor]

it's a full 7.5% better than any alternative

deathmark is not making it strong

it's helping

but the main reason is simply just bleeds are good now

[uncut echo]

Exsang is used on cd

Without dm

[balmy condor]

obv if it gets nerfed to 2 min or 1 min

you would sync

cause it already does it naturally

[uncut echo]

Which increases power

[balmy condor]

but right now dm is a non-issue

and also the sim lowkey is doing that all on its own for the nerfed versions

cause it's a good noodle

[fleet whale]

you could remove bleeds from mastery again

[spice spire]

[balmy condor]

that sounds like a quick way to kill sin m+ forever

lets do it

[uncut echo]

You could also delete sin

[spice spire]

Brethren?

[fleet whale]

and replace CT with a poison aoe finisher

[balmy condor]

I mean he just suggested a 40% nerf to sin aoe

[fleet whale]

have venomous wounds deal nature damage again

like in pre legion

[balmy condor]

yeah

[uncut echo]

Or delete exsang

[balmy condor]

what if we just

[spice spire]

This going out of pocket

[balmy condor]

reworked all of sin

to be not sin

and then we can get rid of one problematic talent

so true

if sin was completely different from now in 17 ways

then exsang probably isn't good

[uncut echo]

Based

Varolyn, we have what we have rn

[balmy condor]

good convo

[uncut echo]

The problem child here is exsang

We're discussing reasonable ways to fix that

[fleet whale]

well of course blizz could just remove it

and replace it with some other button

[uncut echo]

It legit doesnt need to be there period

If it was a blabk spot we'd be top dam still

[quaint sequoia]

or with a passive, we get to many keybinds at it is

[fleet whale]

but i also dont' have high hopes of blizz removing exsang
I mean Rune of Power is still in the game for Christ sake lol

[uncut echo]

Exsang as a spell is the 4th most powerful spell in the tree. Behind KB, dtb and dm

[balmy condor]

well

my sims are sorta going back and forth

on whether KB is really better

[uncut echo]

_>

[balmy condor]

I think it might be an error margin issue

[uncut echo]

We digress

[fleet whale]

I blame 8.3 for exsang still being in the game

[uncut echo]

It's an EGGREGIOUS design outlier

Oh god ramlu is typing

Inc off topic

[balmy condor]

famlu

[vernal adder]

Kb sounds cooler on name basis

[uncut echo]

🍆

And it is cooler

[fleet whale]

how about we replace exsang with....
Blood of the Enemy! lol

[vernal adder]

So its better than exsang

[fleet whale]

but yeah do you think blizz will address the potential button bloat problem that sin may face in DF?

[uncut echo]

Realz already has

Well, he's addressed exsang at least

Let me not misinform

[fleet whale]

cause the meta spec has a lot of short cds

[uncut echo]

He's addressed exsang and the class tree in a lackluster position

[fleet whale]

Tea, ER, exsang, KB, SBS, shiv... that's a lot of mini cds in one spec

[vernal adder]

I like pressing buttons but damn

[fleet whale]

plus you may also spec into gouge for utility

I hope CT isn't used in ST

[uncut echo]

It isnt

Fuck tea

Fuck exsang

Er is fine I guess

Sbs is meh city

@balmy condor does sbs get affected by our mastery?

[thorny pond]

CT gets maintained in ST if you have it

[fleet whale]

I mean would you ever select in a ST raid fight

[thorny pond]

afaik, no

[spice spire]

Yes

[uncut echo]

Nice

[solid mica]

You realize if they nerf exang, theyre probably not going to randomly buff something else up to take its place, and were just going to do less dam right?

[dire lake]

We would still clap most specs

[uncut echo]

We need

To do

Less dam

[fleet whale]

It's not always about damage

[royal lantern]

good Trade

[balmy condor]

that's literally fine, we're 10% ahead of everything

well

most everything

except the other things

[uncut echo]

FeelsHavoc

[balmy condor]

which are also 10% ahead of everything

[royal lantern]

and then a wild aoe appears

[uncut echo]

[fleet whale]

how about the lizard wizards

[uncut echo]

Fuck scalies

[royal lantern]

god i wish

[uncut echo]

Ayo?

[fleet whale]

I'm actually having fun playing them tbh though I hate how the dragon form doesn't really wear armor

and they wear mail, so even in human form, not many good options

[spice spire]

Brother?

[thorny pond]

Think you want my guild's discord

[royal lantern]

why make furry/scalie comment when im around man

they are just asking for it

[dire lake]

He got his priorities. Don’t judge him

[spice spire]

Is this actual lore

[uncut echo]

I'm going havoc

[spice spire]

[uncut echo]

I cant handle this cringe

I dont have wrists for sin binds

[vernal adder]

Go warlock

[thorny pond]

get a better mouse

[uncut echo]

Can't my friend won't let me

[spice spire]

W-why not

Or wait

Is that to go warlock

[thorny pond]

he needs his wrists for his friend, duh

[spice spire]

She, but I legit thought it was to the “getting a better mouse”

[royal lantern]

huh

[thorny pond]

Apologies, but my point is valid

the razer naga has been great so far for sin rogue

[spice spire]

Just use 1-9

[vernal adder]

I got 5 extra buttons on my g502 mouse, but 3 is used for media controlls

[royal lantern]

click

[spice spire]

I thought it was a meme unsure what reality is rn

[thorny pond]

I can't make that comment vaguely sexual George

[royal lantern]

yes

no

[spice spire]

Oh noted, I feel like infinitely more an asshole

[royal lantern]

maybe

[solid mica]

Somethings gotta be on top, i couldnt really justify ever asking for buffs if i asked for nerfs when were actually juiced, even if it is cringe gameplay

[spice spire]

Also I unironically click sprint and evasion

[royal lantern]

i click pots

and shroud

[spice spire]

Pots were on 6, unsure now

Oh yeah I do shroud too

I’m a psychopath

[uncut echo]

Ye I cant go warlock

Because they play warlock forever and we push keys

[thorny pond]

But with the economy that way it is, puts on Gamestop

[uncut echo]

Even if warlock is my fave class

[spice spire]

It’s your what

[neon kindle]

ahri...

[uncut echo]

[vernal adder]

Buy dance pad. Kb+pad

[neon kindle]

i thought u were cool

[uncut echo]

I am cool

[neon kindle]

not according to this

[uncut echo]

Warlocks are fucking based

[spice spire]

Friendship with ahri ended, ramlu is my best friend now 🤝

[vernal adder]

[uncut echo]

Ramlu fused me with everyone I basically am RAMLU

[gusty mirage]

shoulda always been

ramlu bis

[spice spire]

That’s true

[uncut echo]

Fuck you man

[spice spire]

Nah ramlu a goat tho

No shame in losing to him

[uncut echo]

I mean all fax no printer

[spice spire]

But warlock

[uncut echo]

Bruh Ive not play lock since wod

[spice spire]

At least I didn’t actually make the meme

**unlike @gusty mirage **

[uncut echo]

Oxi h8s me

[vernal adder]

Unlucky

[spice spire]

#assassination message

Man legit brought out mspaint

[uncut echo]

Ye you got wasted

Oof size large

[spice spire]

It stings to this day

[ember mural]

he made one for me too

[spice spire]

Ik I can’t find it

[ember mural]

i can but its mean

[uncut echo]

[ember mural]

[uncut echo]

Lmfao

[ember mural]

there it is

[spice spire]

How the fuck

[thorny pond]

George, you can be my best fren

[spice spire]

Ty mister beach patrol

[hollow river]

George is already my best friend

[spice spire]

But he’s my best friend wtf

[uncut echo]

I have no fren

[hollow river]

[spice spire]

Everyone here is a friend wtf do You mean dude

[hollow river]

[spice spire]

Anyway

[hollow river]

[spice spire]

Shiv during kb windows blah blah

[uncut echo]

Exsang bad

[vernal adder]

Im makin pizza today, come over

[uncut echo]

Ooooo omw

[spice spire]

Omw my way!

[vernal adder]

Might be sausage pizza so watch out

[spice spire]

[ember mural]

[spice spire]

[uncut echo]

What if

We had pasta too

[vernal adder]

[uncut echo]

I make the best pasta

All from scratch

[spice spire]

Please tell me you have a roller or something

[vernal adder]

Some torttelini

[spice spire]

Like a machine

[uncut echo]

I also grow my herbs

Kitchen aid!

[spice spire]

Because handmade pasta I made once

And never again

[uncut echo]

But sometimes I do it oldschool

[spice spire]

Old school is rough buddy

[uncut echo]

If I want to suffer for a sin I committed earlier in the week

[spice spire]

Almost as rough as a world with exsanguinate

[uncut echo]

Not wrong

[hollow river]

During or before?

[vernal adder]

Talent is a sin on sin

[spice spire]

Yes

[hollow river]

[spice spire]

Two charges buddy

[grizzled jay]

Sin has 2 charges of Shiv, Sub plays one charge Dance.

[spice spire]

As god intended

Bless up

[vernal adder]

Make sub ER in dance

[spice spire]

That’s cursed

[grizzled jay]

Sub does ER in Dance if you take it

[uncut echo]

Im going to throw up and die

[grizzled jay]

Counts towards Danse Macabre :)

But luckily with current SecTec Danse build, Cold Blood is better than ER.

@uncut echo can i have your pc

[uncut echo]

I7 10700k and a 3080

[grizzled jay]

tyty

[uncut echo]

Sure bb 🥰

[spice spire]

Do not die, pls and ty

[grizzled jay]

appreciate you

death comes for us all George. we can't stop it. the Shadowlands will not be forgotten.

[uncut echo]

Let's get metaphysical

[spice spire]

Buddy I see it over a dozen times a week you don’t have to tell me

[grizzled jay]

wow that's a lot of innocents you are killing

[spice spire]

I’d never hurt another living thing wtf

[grizzled jay]

yeah? well then why do you eat food

checkmate, atheists

[spice spire]

Cuz it’s already dead, get woke buddy

[grizzled jay]

actually that fresh picked tomato you ate was still alive

[spice spire]

[burnt latch]

Dude i hate how well realz has balanced our specs

[gusty mirage]

yeah?

well I hate how cute you are

[burnt latch]

I freaking hate it too

JUST HATE IT

How am I meant to explain to my guild that assa is cracked on a lot of fights so I need daggies but that Outlaw is cracked on the fights that assa isnt so i also need a sword

[neon kindle]

[gusty mirage]

send them my way

[burnt latch]

And then I need to explain how sub might have some scenarios whete its good too

TOO MUCH EXPLAINING FOR A SIMPLE MAN

i was just today having a talk about this

[grizzled jay]

same way we always do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq88AqJsQUQ

[burnt latch]

And for the fights where assa doesnt seem too great, outlaw unironically might be one of the best specs

Actually crazy how good rogue looks atm

[uncut dragon]

So, if I main sin for raid, am I going to need to get a non-dagger and run outlaw for M+? Outlaw always seems too button-pushy for me

[spice spire]

Realz a real(z) one

[grizzled jay]

[spice spire]

You don’t have to, sin is going to be fine unless you’re hard pushing keys

[uncut dragon]

my brain is a low APM brain

[burnt latch]

Assa is fairly high apm in m+ tbf

[spice spire]

But also sin in m+ is fairly high apm until st moments

Mister warcieft leave my brain pls

[burnt latch]

Great minds something something

[spice spire]

Amen

[uncut dragon]

Still trying to sort out openers and cooldowns. Main rotation is fine, but ya I guess if you're multidotting m+ you're going to push a lot of buttons

[hollow river]

You copy and paste this message

It’s just like Fury or Arms being better at certain fights, except we use different weppies

I feel like half my guild didn’t know outlaw could use Veinrippers

[burnt latch]

Also going back to my original problem, it doesnt help that Havoc is looking insane rn, and Enhance is a guaranteed raid spot, so they will 100% get prio over rogue on weapons to beging with. I guess m+ is going to be a very valuable asset for us unless rng procs the guild a lot of weapons from bosses

[true pelican]

i mean rogue is also a guaranteed spot

[burnt latch]

Yes, but youre playing assasination most likely

[hollow river]

Did enhance get a raid buff? Haven’t been keeping up with sham

[burnt latch]

Totems cracked no raids buffs tho

[hollow river]

Oh wft is even better now?

[burnt latch]

Yeah

[hollow river]

Still that’s a nice party buff

That DHs gain 10% from remember

[spice spire]

Mister warcieft are you still korruptio?

[solid mica]

Idk assa has a lot to offer in m+ im kinda excited for it

[burnt latch]

I just feel like its VERY valuable to have an optimized and geared Outlaw rogue in your roster for certain bosses, but im not sure at what cost. You certainly dont want to give a rogue a MH weapon over a DH or enhancer. But it gets interesting when your thinking about Outlaw vs enhancer/dh’s 2nd weapon. If youre only going to play outlaw on one or two bosses, but its REALLY good, but u play enhance + DH on ALL bosses, which is more value. A positive problem

[neon kindle]

IC got the sin community actin up

[burnt latch]

Yes mister

[vernal adder]

finnish only guild?

[spice spire]

It does, but it also has to compete directly with outlaw which does have an easier output IMO

[spice spire]

Gl this tier papi

[burnt latch]

Yeah we’re finnish only

[vernal adder]

juu

[burnt latch]

Thank you sir I hope it goes well for you too!

[hollow river]

I will co-sign any and all petitions to get Mr. Warcieft his MH

[burnt latch]

[solid mica]

Definetely true, if our st can be pretty juiced even in m+ though we might carry thay burden which i wouldnt mind

[spice spire]

That’s what I mean when I say pushing. I mean like, pushing for title

[balmy condor]

pushing P

[burnt latch]

Dude not having direct access to sims from other classes is hurting my brain I need to start doing some Sparkcieft and Felcieft sims to figure out some numbers for item dps gains

But also maybe u just one trick sin all the way

That’d be nice and comfy

[spice spire]

Warciefttwo appreciates it

[solid mica]

Ye i gotchu, thats what im about @spice spire

[burnt latch]

warcieftwo is banned from splits no tier for mr two

[spice spire]

[burnt latch]

Chicieft is the official 2nd model, two and three might face a harsh sentence of renown farming and dailies grinding to feed the homies profession stuff

[balmy condor]

I did some math with jez for inscription requirements

because buzzing/howling runes

and uh

[gusty mirage]

[green harbor]

[hollow river]

Are we all inscriptionists now?

[balmy condor]

yeh so you know how you added sharpening stones to your weapons

[hollow river]

[balmy condor]

in shadowlands

and they added like 0.3% damage

[hollow river]

The rest plz

[balmy condor]

buzzing rune is 2x stronger

[hollow river]

[balmy condor]

misclick mb

[blazing totem]

surely you dont need to have inscription to use them

right?

[balmy condor]

no you don't

but how many inscriptionists do you know

[gusty mirage]

2

[hollow river]

A few actually

[balmy condor]

and now imagine that a full 20 man raid team will need about 60 for every 3-4 hour raid night

[burnt latch]

Just wait till he hears his raid leader calling for a 1 hr raid break so u can split off into 4 m+ groups to farm primal essences because you ran out of them and need the top tier combat potions to beat a tight dps check

[balmy condor]

and mythic+ on top

if you raid 3 days for example, your guild will easily eat 200-300 a week

[green harbor]

they last 2 hours so it would be 40 at most

[balmy condor]

ooooooo

so close

you got 2 daggers bud

[burnt latch]

[balmy condor]

and other classes also have 2 weapons

[burnt latch]

What if we raid 7 days

[blazing totem]

does it stack with sharpening stones? or are those not a thing in DF

[balmy condor]

sharpening stones are a thing

[hollow river]

[balmy condor]

but they're 0.3% worse, per hand

[burnt latch]

[balmy condor]

so they're basically just budget items atm for blacksmiths to shit out and flood the market

[hollow river]

Limit is looking for crafters

[balmy condor]

I'm sure they are

and it's not like this is a rogue only thing

[burnt latch]

Oh and this for those that dont know, is a BOP crafting material that u shove into a cauldron, that gives you r1 combat potions that are quite better than the next best thing. And its only available from that cauldron, with ONLY bop mats

[balmy condor]

those things give haste and crit

everyone fucking loves one of those two

except for like, the weirdest of specs

I'm sure there's some vers/mastery spec somewhere out there

[oak sky]

Bro we're the only class that needs our weapon

[burnt latch]

[balmy condor]

group loot

dagger drop insta rogue

banger

[oak sky]

Yes

[burnt latch]

Oh yeah its not daggers im worried about

[oak sky]

Didnt you say you were playing assassination

[burnt latch]

I wrote about it earlier hold on

[oak sky]

Like outlaw weapon competes

[burnt latch]

.

This

[oak sky]

Yeah thats a fair thought

[balmy condor]

outlaw :/

[burnt latch]

Sadly or happily, depending on where youre coming from, the tuning for our class is so good that for minmaxing purposes ud most likely want to play more than one spec

[balmy condor]

second class spec gets second pick on weapons

logic checks out

outlaw has a special effect weapon from m+ this expac again though

so I think it's kinda okay?

[burnt latch]

Yeah but sadly not S1

[balmy condor]

oof

yeah that's unlucky

idk

group loot also has issues

it's so hard to make a loot system that everyone can agree with

[burnt latch]

Its more of a fun problem to solve this, atleast for me. Gonna talk with the officers and run some sims closer to when this is relevant, and trying to figure out whats the correct decision

Just think its wild that rogue balance tuning is so great right now. Usually u have an optimal spec for the raid, but that spec isnt optimal or even good for all bosses, so u end up playing another spec that sucks less, but isnt great for that fight either. Now we have the option to swap from a spec that might not be good on a fight, to a better spec, and that better spec is most likely going to be optimal, if not very close to for said fight

English is hard but yeah tldr realz is king

[thorn crater]

inscription value through the roof with all the new shit added

• the new deck boxes will shit money

but you need the capital going in

and to grind all reps for all recipes

[dreamy canyon]

I was reading the new Method Assassination guide and notices in the rotation section it's recommended to cast Garrote and Rupture multiple times in ST opener. Can someone explain this to me? I must be missing something.

[balmy condor]

pandemic

[teal bloom]

Exsang

[balmy condor]

it's just to max out pandemic

for exang

[dreamy canyon]

To get max duration before exsang?

[balmy condor]

ye

[celest ruin]

is it worth using throw knife to get 1 cp for the anima charged cp or just wait until you naturally land on it?

[dreamy canyon]

thanks for the answer Whispyr

[balmy condor]

you naturally land on it

[celest ruin]

ty

[half moat]

Ugh playing with Echoing Reprimand 😦

[balmy condor]

if it makes you feel better, you have to press exsanguinate directly after

it's like chasing a shot of laundry detergent with a glass of rat poison

[dreamy canyon]

lmao that really gets my appetite going

[half moat]

See Im one of those wierd people who doesn't mind Exsang though :(. something about ER and that shitty mini game just never felt good to me.

[balmy condor]

I'm the other way around

ER is fine for me

but exsang feels horrendous just being slammed on cooldown

[green harbor]

assa is the only spec i like ER on and i don't mind exsang

[trim zinc]

Er is fine
Sometimes ur like
Er env mut env mut env
Feels god
Exsang is sadge

[torn atlas]

I think I would hate exsang more without ER tbh.

I hated both previously, but together they seem to feel better.

[balmy condor]

that's a pretty interesting take

I haven't heard that one before

[green harbor]

i can see where he's coming from, a 7 combo point pandemic rupture feels like normal duration

[final star]

anyone who says they like exsang is the least sane rogue player

[balmy condor]

real and true

[green harbor]

this, but outlaw instead of exsang

[dense cedar]

they basically don't interact tho wdym

[final star]

all 3 spec enjoyer kpb

[torn atlas]

Don't we ER to 7 point rupt? Maybe I'm playing wrong, but it feels more natural to rotation that they have the same cd timing and naturally flow one into the next.

[dense cedar]

would you delay your exsang if it was to ensure that the combo occurs?

[thorn crater]

cause it allows you for easier reapplication after the expiration?

[weak horizon]

Is it ever worth it to go for the 7 cp rupture in opener for the longer exsang?

[thorn crater]

u always go for the 7 cp rup

before exsang

[weak horizon]

Right, but in the opener isn't it random whether or not I'll hit it? The opener just says rupture er rupture

[thorn crater]

and exsang is just fine. not enjoyable but there are worse things out there imo

?

er proccs CPs 2-5

as empowered

and it gives 2-3 CPs based on crit or not

so its always empowered

[weak horizon]

Oh, I thought it was just randomly one of them not all of them

Must have misread the ER capstone

[dense cedar]

all the extra empowers

are places it can land ye

[thorn crater]

RC gives it to 4 of them

teh capstone under ER

[weak horizon]

I thought the ER capstone just gave you 3 back to back empowrrs

[thorn crater]

just max out ER o nthe tree and use it for yourself you will see how it works

[weak horizon]

Sounds like it just removes the randomness in when you hit the empower then?

[thorn crater]

its prolly better to visually see it than read about it

[weak horizon]

Fair, thanks

[thorn crater]

but also take resounding clarity underneath it

should be self explanatory

just thought to say it too

[weak horizon]

Yep, thanks a bunch guys

[dense cedar]

everyone is really excited to play with Thistle Tea tho

pog gaming

[weak horizon]

Yeah, interested to see how it'll feel at level 70

Can't wait

[thorn crater]

tea is giga

if anything i can see it get knocked down a bit in future patches

[dense cedar]

unlikely imo

[thorn crater]

i mean, it gives so much energy

[dense cedar]

since the gameplay around it isn't too abusive

[thorn crater]

and with all the energy generation we have

[torn atlas]

Aren't we always sending ER prior to exsang, so should never be delaying right?

[thorn crater]

eitehr it will become obsolete, or it is so strong that the energy generation talents will ebcome obsolete

[dense cedar]

depends on ur cp count before er

[thorn crater]

(when ilvls go up and we get more haste everywhere)

[thorn crater]

yes ideally u want exsang to run on 7cp ruptures

[tacit iris]

what do you mean delaying? they're both on a 45s cd right

[thorn crater]

and since they share cd

[dense cedar]

u can have a 4 gcd delay on exsang potentially

worth to consider imo

[thorn crater]

which is good

that way there is no way to fuck up a 7 point rupture

[dense cedar]

the best way to avoid

is literalyl to do a really shit envenom

[thorn crater]

i mean technically u dont have to

u would have to if they were synced to the second

u can just use ER on CD

and choose to ignore it for 4 seconds

but it shouldnt be an issue really

[dense cedar]

just gotta remember energy considerations for it

but otherwise

should be fine

[thorn crater]

u got sbs to fill the cps necessary

[dense cedar]

ah true i suppose

[weak horizon]

Is there ever a world in which it's worth it to take tricks of the trade for m+?

[torn atlas]

Yeah look, I don't have sim perfect game play and I'm not saying I necessarily like ER or like Exsang, just that I prefer them both together because they share a cd timing and one compliments the other.

[thorn crater]

less stress in case of an error to get the rupture maxed in time

i egt you

[dense cedar]

idk about the upcoming m+ rotation but there are sometimes opportunities to help smooth out pulls or get extra dps without risk

[thorn crater]

i dno how blackjack plays out so i cant say for sure

that 30% dmg decrease couldm atter

[dense cedar]

that top section of the tree has some okay swapping potential

[torn atlas]

I was answering a hypothetical question

[balmy condor]

yeh the top section can get changed around

tight spender isn't TOO important in m+ especially

so it's not unreasonable to just drop a point or two to take utility you find important

[torn atlas]

Yeah I do like that aspect of our tree, it has that slight flexibility of what utility you take.

1 extra point to flex around would be nice, but I guess that's the design they're looking for. Keep you wishing you could take just one more talent.

[dense cedar]

the class tree mostly shits the bed the lower half

[thorn crater]

i mena

if we had one more point it would go to lethality

so no flexibility there lol

just make alacrity a 1 pointer and so we can max lethality

Prayge

[balmy condor]

make alacrity and lethality 1 pointers so we can put a point into cold blood

[thorn crater]

what are we gonna do with CB

[balmy condor]

more damage

[burnt latch]

make zoldyk 1 pointer so i can choose my 2x capstones

matter of fact juts give me more points

[torn atlas]

I meant specifically around that top utility end. If it was 1 extra free point anywhere, dps always

[balmy condor]

wdym? you can choose exsang and kingsbane already, do you want a third capstone?

[thorn crater]

fax

[burnt latch]

[thorn crater]

can u imagine

if they put IC where exsang is

and vice versa?

[balmy condor]

it's a bigger loss to talent out of exsanguinate than it is to talent out of kingsbane in single target

unreal

[tacit iris]

can u imagine deleting exsang 😉

[burnt latch]

its funny aswell because u cant fix that talent

like theres no numbers to be tuned there

[balmy condor]

25% faster 2 min cooldown

then it's competitive with alternatives

[thorn crater]

i mean thats giga nerf

[burnt latch]

make it 1min45 so i dont need to worry about deathmark

[thorn crater]

frankly exsang is the reason we are top ST dps

dont @ me

[balmy condor]

yeh well it's 7% better than anything around it