assassination

[vestal wren]

because he did mention changes to raid utility in general, so not sure what that means for rogue

[royal lantern]

sub shroud is 55%MS now!!!!!!!!

[oak sky]

I think in those terms we didnt do too awful, at least we didnt have to talent into our builders and finishers

[vestal wren]

rogue has a low amount of builders

we don't have builders we don't use

(well shuriken toss might be a exception)

[oak sky]

yeah true

but every melee has some kind of throw

even just for a ranged filler

[distant plinth]

is the cos ring still good after the nerf ?

[limber lion]

Not really.

I mean, it's still good and has always been good

but a mecha set probably still beats it.

[whole mason]

still good

not too good or really good or very good

[distant plinth]

mecha rings probably better then?

[whole mason]

sim it?

[oak sky]

pretty sure koji's sims had cos ring like 150-200 dps up

pretty lame

didnt farm it because mecha rings were supposed to be better

[subtle tundra]

well atleast now i wont feel like omega shit

just like shit

[distant plinth]

sims 200 dps lower for me so cba farming it then x)

[fallen raven]

old convo but i like this, it isn't massively mechanically different than just increasing energy regen but it seems like it could be cool for kb builds. might make pooling feel more tactical if you can sustain it for longer with good tea usage rather than it being just another adrenaline rush

[limber lion]

No, Mecha set is better

[plain onyx]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide
Method: https://www.method.gg/guides/assassination-rogue

[near lark]

Is ring nerf on raidbots?

[limber lion]

Yes

[near lark]

Thank you, simming about 100 dps less than my current set, which isabout 50 for the socket

so 50 odd dps difference

That being COS Ring + Leggo > 298 Mecha Set (Only socket in Leggo)

[rotund oak]

cos ring is meh for assa

[vestal wren]

it is still very good

[grizzled jay]

gm

[vestal wren]

gm tmb, how you feeling today?

[indigo ginkgo]

mech ring , with hast or the damage?

[vestal wren]

haste set is the strong one

[indigo ginkgo]

thanks

[grizzled jay]

stayed up too late last night otherwise fine

[brazen zodiac]

how r u feeling fuu

[subtle tundra]

The reason cos finger is stronger is cause you can put leggo on finger and have high ilvl chest

[vestal wren]

i am fine thanks, updated the 3 fight styles for all 3 specs earlier for the ring updates 🙂

varas is not incorrect, switching legendary slot is part of it, but it is not better straight up iirc

[brazen zodiac]

hey thanks for the hard work gamer!

[fallow canopy]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oTipCxmnL2aP1HjwZqRRia balance is restored (?

[limber lion]

Yes

[ebon notch]

ill put my finger somewhere if ur not careful

[subtle tundra]

you are a meanie!
!!!!!!!

[spice spire]

[subtle tundra]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[subtle tundra]

man i wanna pop some assa key pushing

[main solar]

A thought about moving cheat death up the tree. Improved Sap feels very meh, and is also reachable/a forced pick if you decided not to pick up sap/cloak for some reason, but go down the right path. Perhaps move CD up to that spot, and put soothing darkness in its place. That or make Sap baseline, move up cloak/tricks/shadowstep and you can put CD up there somewhere.

but in general, improved sap feels weird. Rushed Setup also reduces its energy as it is, so technically going down the right path and getting imp sap because there's no way around it makes it lose value

Elusiveness also got the Evasion reducing 10% damage taken added to it because you can technically not have feint at all, so there's some precedent to it.

[oak sky]

The bottom line is theres a good amount of waya cheat death can be moved up

I honestly wouldnt mind it being somewhere in the middle if we had more overall connectivity, because then its a point that requires investment but also isn't in a spot where its hard to get to and you commit too much

[cerulean nest]

I wish they would just make a few of our defensives baseline so that we had a couple more points to spend

on the class tree

[empty flame]

I am outlaw right now want to switch to assassin seems like a fun rotation. is it a big difference or people just do outlaw because its cool

[subtle tundra]

People play whats best usually

I play what I like and what's best

[empty flame]

I just hate the outlaw rotation

The random nature of it isn't fun for me or the lego

[royal lantern]

what random nature?

its a normal proc spec

outlaw has a lower dps variance then many specs

[ebon notch]

man wasnt there in CN

the variation in our dps as outlaw was like

4k or something

one of the highest

(maybe not that high but was very high)

[oak sky]

i think outlaw still has relatively high variance actually

not like enhance but rtb buffs definitely have a decent impact

also procs during flag with blunderbuss

[ebon notch]

check shaman

enha specifically

[oak sky]

i said that

[ebon notch]

FUCK

I LITERALLY

[oak sky]

ik shaman is awful but outlaw still has a decent amount of variance no?

[ebon notch]

CANT READ ANYTHING

bro like 3 times in the past 2 days

ive repeated what someone has said just before i type it

like

fuck me

[oak sky]

its all good bro

[grim canopy]

are there any DF assassin streamers?

df alpha

[obtuse robin]

no

not until theres an update to rogue atleast

[toxic quail]

did someone say Shaman?

[oak sky]

whatup

good to see you

[toxic quail]

good to see you baby

[oak sky]

hows the sham been

[toxic quail]

i told the guild im done simping in DF and back to Assa

[oak sky]

from one simp to another

hf with atrophic poison

[toxic quail]

at least its my fucking home

shaman is sick but yeah variance like you said

if i dont get hot hands and fire dogs i do no damage

so im excited to be back to rogue full time

[gusty mirage]

you offering?

[oak sky]

can i watch

[balmy condor]

Bro?

[spice spire]

Bros?

[spare crow]

what is going on haha

[brazen zodiac]

👋

[kindred crescent]

I have found a niche

Assasination may not be the best at packs but damn i pump bosses

[ebon notch]

👀

[subtle tundra]

What if I told you it's not a niche? A good outlaw will pump just as hard on st while also doing better overall

[dawn merlin]

^ pretty much, outlaw becomes oppressive if it has the highest single target

[subtle tundra]

I just hate how much better destro and surv still are over everything else

Cause they benefit so much from haste

So blizz tried to balance them just to not matter

And also demo

And also blood doing obscene dps doesn't help either when you're neck and neck on the meters with the tank

[half skiff]

Is it seeming any better for df?

[subtle tundra]

Yes bcs this is all from borrowed power

[half skiff]

That’s something at least I play outlaw In keys and man I do t realy like the spec much

[viral aurora]

What don't you like about it? I feel like it's the most fun it has been in a while.

[half skiff]

mostly the theme of it just prefer sin and sub but i play outlaw cause its just out right stronger

[gentle gyro]

oooooooh yeah

[half skiff]

grats

[gentle gyro]

tell me I'm wrong

[subtle tundra]

You push for fun 🙂

😔

[gentle gyro]

"fun" and "Karazhan" are not really all that compatible

[subtle tundra]

Hey you can have fun with friends

[gentle gyro]

my friends never set foot into anything above like 10

[sinful cradle]

Upper is fun tho

[gentle gyro]

you say that now because this week is free

next week is going to be funny to watch

[sinful cradle]

Ive liked upper every week

Idk

[gentle gyro]

actually, affixes themselves aren't that bad, but it's tyrannical. 50% of groups will wipe to curator

[sinful cradle]

Maybe just me

[gentle gyro]

don't get me wrong, it's alright. i don't hate Kara itself, but it becomes impossible if someone is incompetent

if someone dies in like workshop, it's whatever, takes a bit longer but you can manage

but a bad player in kara will just deplete your key

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ryN9oAFabhCqSB7meAoPGT

yummy

[limber lion]

Looks good!

[feral rivet]

Curator adds still scale with fortified tho no?

[gusty mirage]

Probably

[gentle gyro]

wait what

do they?

that doesn't seem right

summoned adds should scale with either nothing or the boss affix, not trash

[gusty mirage]

Because it isn’t right. There was a lot of weird instances over the years where that interaction took place

Galv in temple of sethralis in bfa did as well

Tyran would buff him, fort would buff the pillars he spawned

🍝

[ebon notch]

upper is a lot of fun

just blast a fuckload of damage

[stray mural]

I know there’s far less Assa rogues than the other two but this makes me happy. This is the second season in a row that I’ve been numero una assassino

On thrall at least

Not stopping until I’m 2.5 this season, iirc it’s equivalent to 3k last

[drifting cloud]

they dont

[mossy moon]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[burnt latch]

This is one of those ”im pretty sure they do” myths that isnt real

Very much scaling with tyrannical

[balmy condor]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/316923750073499648/1010998455424004137/carnagebuffwhen.gif

[leaden hornet]

CD reduced too plzzz

So many trash in M+ need that at 45-60 secs

[balmy condor]

nah

cd is fine

if anything it needs to be longer to balance it

it's so strong if it hits things

insta getting up all your dots in aoe

is so crazy good

[grizzled jay]

cd is fine because its every other pack in M+

Fire doesn't get combust every pack

[balmy condor]

also depends a lot on the key level

1:30 in high m+ could easily be every pack

minus like a small 2-3 pack waiting for cds

[grizzled jay]

tru

don't think we're gonna have many dungeons like Freehold or Atal anymore where you pull the dungeon in like 3 whole packs lol

[chilly marsh]

i dont think cd is a problem too but range really is

should be bigger to really work

[cursive orchid]

fea priest

[leaden hornet]

I don't think there's anything too strong just make us S tier

[balmy condor]

great take

[brazen zodiac]

good take is good take

sup whisp

[balmy condor]

Sadness mostly

Re-applying to college after covid

It’s terrible

Actually the worst thing I’ve ever done

[oak sky]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/837724110394097704.webp?size=96&quality=lossless

[subtle tundra]

I don't want to feel bad playing m+ :(((

[marble hemlock]

cough

lemme pull up the counter exhibits A to Z

[brazen zodiac]

That sucks

[carmine dawn]

Proud of you

[pure moth]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[limber walrus]

Undergrad or Graduate? Major?

[balmy condor]

undergrad

[limber walrus]

Oof, i just Graduated last May. Good Luck

[dark token]

why is sin less played this season compared to others? didnt seem to be any direct buffs/nerfs to rogue specs to make it worse in comparison

[slim wagon]

are you talking about raids?

[pseudo hamlet]

Outlaw is just more rewarding and better for M+ while in the raids the ST damage is comparable.

[dark token]

no, m+

[slim wagon]

also I think both outlaw and sub gain more than assa from the special weapons in sod (that's me talking out of my ass though)

m+ outlaw and sub are better

and assa is more effort

[oak sky]

Tier set is ass in aoe

[dark token]

yes they have been but it seems to be played even less now

ic

[marble hemlock]

part of me wants to play assa in m+ to see if thats actually true or people are just bad at it like the last 752 times they said assa is bad even though it wasnt

[oak sky]

You just kinda get glued to your vendetta target for 20s and then you do your normal aoe rotation which is barely buffed by the 2p compared to other class tier sets

[marble hemlock]

but then id have to play assa in m+

or rather

id have to play wow

[oak sky]

I didnt think it felt good either

For aoe

I liked the gameplay in 9.0/9.1 enough to still run it but now its not only more effort for less damage its not even rewarding

[slim wagon]

I did not say assa is bad, but more effort

[oak sky]

You didnt

[vestal wren]

dragonflight does remove some of the problems

[marble hemlock]

id probably enjoy assa in m+ more if i didnt have 4pc

[pseudo hamlet]

I don't really remember when Assa was bad, apart from beginning of the 9.0

[oak sky]

100%

[limber lion]

Assa is definitely bad in m+

[marble hemlock]

my point

at least until like

[pseudo hamlet]

Assa is totally viable for m+(did some >20+ this week and it went good), but it's just worse than Outlaw

[marble hemlock]

end of BfA

assa was never actually bad

but people thought it was

[limber lion]

That goes for every single spec in the game though

You can do +20's on any spec

[pseudo hamlet]

yes

[limber lion]

but some are still better than others

[oak sky]

It was plenty good enough until we got the tier set and everyone else got a 30% gain in aoe and we just didnt

[marble hemlock]

assa will always feel worse in keys of that magnitutde imo

[vestal wren]

outlaw was just dominant in bfa

[marble hemlock]

shit just dies too fast

[vestal wren]

it is similar now, subtlety is not bad in m+

[marble hemlock]

so outlaw is obviously feeling stronger

[slim wagon]

I'd argue you can do +30 as assa, but your life would be much less stressful and easy if you did it as outlaw

[vestal wren]

but nobody plays it

[oak sky]

30 junkyard maybe

[marble hemlock]

the one upside of assa in higher keys would be that you actually scale well with haste bounty

while outlaw does not

and haste bounty is op

[ebon lichen]

Sin struggles above 20 just with the dps outlaw can put out for aoe keys. That being said you can still push higher keys if you have a good group. With pugs its going to be rough

[limber lion]

Outlaw just does a lot a lot a lot more damage than assa in 2-5 targets

[marble hemlock]

b-b-b-but its a multidot class, its the cleave king!

[oak sky]

Who knew auto cleave was just better when its buffed to 60%

[viscid spear]

[marble hemlock]

b-b-b-but outlaw will never be viable unless you uncap bladeflurry

[subtle tundra]

Outlaw players when their spec isnt the absolute best at everything

[marble hemlock]

http://puu.sh/JiEgd/ec4a617271.jpg

traitor

gonna have to ask for your badge back

[native belfry]

Guys, should I try our necro on SLG? Or just stick with venth?

[marble hemlock]

you can have it back when youve been clean for 30days

[violet jackal]

Mythic or Heroic?

[native belfry]

Mythic, hc is kinda whatever

[violet jackal]

Not everyone is of the same skill level and it never hurts to specify 🙂

Warcraftlog consensus is pretty down the middle in the top 10 with an overall favoring venthyr

[limber lion]

Necro

[violet jackal]

Necrolord would also be my personal opinion

[limber lion]

If you're super unfamiliar with Necro then you can play Venthyr, it honestly doesn't matter too too much. What matters more is killing the motes and getting to intermission with 2 goliaths every time.

[native belfry]

Sure thing:)

I was also thinking about necro because we can get free CP from constantly spawning adds but then I saw mostly venth on wlogs and got confused

Think most ppl play outlaw there

[limber lion]

Doesn't matter tbf, you'll parse well as long as you get 30-40 stacks of the motes each time and spam your buttons

if you get shitty motes, you're donezo

but yeh, just play whatever you want, the boss is super easy this week.

[marble hemlock]

did they fix the blessing of protection thingy?

[native belfry]

no, it worked yesterday

[limber lion]

Yeh so only need one orb, even easier

:kekg:

sad nitro nonhaver

[gusty mirage]

dw I gotchu

[limber lion]

no

[gusty mirage]

[subtle tundra]

i havent had time to play im literally in greece

omg 😦

[viscid spear]

Calm down Travolta

[spice spire]

That was a good one actually

[brazen zodiac]

lol

[subtle tundra]

i dont get it

please explain to a non-intellectual

[spice spire]

Unsure if serious

[viscid spear]

Do you know a girl named Sandy?

[subtle tundra]

Confused

[viscid spear]

https://tenor.com/view/tell-me-more-summer-nights-grease-john-travolta-olivia-newton-john-gif-26436825

[whole bay]

hey gang

i was wondering if kyrian was viable for assassination

[spice spire]

It’s a movie “Grease”

[spice spire]

It is; however, seal fate is a bit of a trolly thing with it.
I’m sure it’s better with the legendary but it’s generally just better to go venthyr

[whole bay]

ok ok

and with venthyr we go with vigor or deeper stratagem

(i hate marked for death)

[spice spire]

Mfd but if you absolutely refuse, deeper is better

[whole bay]

ok thx haha

and last question, i have scars of infernal strife

are we supposed to sit on 4 stacks

or use the full 5 to blow on adds

[spice spire]

Sit on 4 until the final 30 seconds then send it

[whole bay]

ok ok

even in keys?

[celest ruin]

grevious + scars bleed

[spice spire]

Keys with scars

[whole bay]

oh

i guess we arent supposed to do that haha

[grim dirge]

hey, i have a 246 edge of night, how high must a new wep (not edge) be for an upgrade? (i will get new edge, but need two more weeks for coin)

[vast loom]

just sim it, sims will tell you if its worth it to replace

[stray mural]

I think any 288 beats it. I’m not sure.

[grim dirge]

ait 🙂

thanks

[spice spire]

Like during sod when it was current content 252s were beating 246 eon for me

It’s not as big as you think for sin

But they’re right, sim it

[velvet ridge]

They haven't updated our tree in a hot minute, huh. I guess that means we're perfect 🙂

[gusty mirage]

[vestal wren]

[balmy condor]

[brazen zodiac]

yep we just dandy now

[obtuse robin]

[thorn fjord]

I forgot how old rogues didnt have CP carry over from dead mobs

that shit sucks

[silver umbra]

and then it turned into redirection on a cd

[burnt latch]

hi guys

i hope u all have a wonderful day

and a restful night

[silver umbra]

stage 1 of their rework

that was fun

remember when snd required a target

[thorn fjord]

Awful gameplay LOL

I feel like playing wotlk is just going to annoy me more than anything... if i do decide to play i shouldnt play rogue lol

[silver umbra]

I tested some ptr

its so weird to have so many QOL things undone

I'm like wait what

like just the mount organization stuff/other

but whatever gameplay might make up for it

[spice spire]

You should not

I tried rogue in classic and just couldn’t

[carmine dawn]

Im boosting a rogue tomorrow

Everyone says wrath combat was peak gameplay idk

[slow marsh]

It kind of was for its time but it most definitely won't feel like it unless you've been playing vanilla / BC rogue

If you just go from current to wotlk you're gonna think its pretty shitty cuz I mean it is

[silver umbra]

20 apm insanity

[slow marsh]

It's like people who swear by space invaders and stuff as the greatest games. Context is important

[silver umbra]

afaik not many people play that

but tons still play tetris

[oak sky]

Everyone is dumb and cringe and has rose tinted glasses!

[slow marsh]

Especially people named Andrew

[carmine dawn]

ok but being top dps is also fun

isnt combat the strongest, and DK ofc

[strange python]

Pretty sure warrior was giga by the end

[slow marsh]

warrior because they could take all the best armpen gear from rogues and hunters

also combat wasn't really strong until ICC. Assassination popped off with the new stuff they put in for wrath

[placid pagoda]

best kill order for Council Mythic?

[oak sky]

fsn

[placid pagoda]

for timers etc?

[gusty mirage]

killing spree actually did damage

wild

[carmine dawn]

hi oxi

long time no talk

hope work isn't killing you

[gusty mirage]

yeah I have OT perma muted

blame hataro

[storm onyx]

i remember trial of crusader armor was dps downgrade for assasination

after Ulduar

[gusty mirage]

[oak sky]

he hasnt been around in a while actually

[silver umbra]

you're saying killing spree kills?

[viscid spear]

https://tenor.com/view/people-die-if-they-are-gif-20318194

[silver umbra]

New killing spree kills too. It's just that it kills the user rather than the target

[viscid spear]

uses Killing Spree on Dark Shamans
get to see what under Orgrimmar looks like

[spice spire]

Season one killing spree was truly built diff

[heavy skiff]

!scars

[prisma monolith]

Scars of Fraternal Strife usage:
Stack it up to rune 4. Activate the 5th rune close to the end of the fight, if you can line it up with the last use of your major cooldown.
Note: Runes have negative side effects that can also take you out of stealth.

[woven locust]

Howdy! Was thinking of getting into rogue again, but i know some of the specs have pretty high apm. Any insights on Assa apm?

[balmy condor]

It’s slow and we have like a dozen people every week who complain about it because they think not casting an ability every microsecond of their life is a mistake

(We don’t like those people)

[woven locust]

Coming from feral, so is it the same typa thing? Burst window then you pool / snapshotting bleeds?

[brazen zodiac]

https://tenor.com/view/sweaty-speedrunner-epic-gamer-sweatyspeedrunner-gif-22461398

[balmy condor]

yeah pretty much except we don't have any snapshotting normally (it's either a talent or the current tier set)

so it's just maintain everything, then burst kinda deal

[woven locust]

gotcha! ive got bleed maintenance on lock so it shouldnt be a prob

sounds fun

[drowsy hollow]

I'm super excited to try poison build in df and hopefully poison bomb is finally okay again. I miss it.

Still don't get the fascination with dead ends in all 3 rogue trees. Especially any that are like two utility talents back to back as detour dead end.

[oak sky]

dead ends just make utility and niche abilities more optional

[thorn fox]

I've come to the conclusion that the sin tree needs quite a lot of work.

• It's pretty powerful

• Pathing (left/centre/right lanes, only 2 lane crosses at lvl4/5) means there are few options available.
• Indescriminate carnage is clearly the AOE capstone, but the fan of knives and Crimson Tempest talents are on the left lane
• Generally all 3 point talents are being phased out of other trees. Our row-9 talents should be simplified I think.

Couple of other things I'd like to see:

1. Sepsis on the left side (maybe choice with blindside?)
2. Ability to get Dragon-tempered Blades and another capstone. But there should be options to take only 1 and get more optional power (like blindside, sepsis, serrated bone spike, etc)
3. Make having 2 shivs an actual option. It's pretty much forced. Actually, why do we need 2x shivs?
4. Please be legitimately viable in M+. Why does deathmark have to be a single target talent? Indiscriminate Carnage is good, but what do I do for the other 1.2 minutes?
5. Atrophic Poison could be much lower down the tree. No assassination rogue needs to take that at lvl19. It obviously has to be optional.
6. Maybe some more nodes? Seems to be a bit light on

Most of the feedback so far is that assassination has a nice tree and yeah it seems pretty powerful, but I really think it could use some work.

[simple gyro]

You originally could get two capstones but they added a point to poison bomb to prevent it due to adding kingsbane back

Dragon tempered blades and kingsbane would be a balancing nightmare

[subtle tundra]

When beta df?!?

I want to play

[oak sky]

2 shivs is a thing so we have more flexibility using our shiv for utility if necessary, deathmark is a single target talent presumably because its meant to be a successor to vendetta, which was also a single target cd. in m+ when you don't have carnage, you follow the standard current m+ gameplay of spreading your bleeds to as many targets as possible. atrophic poison might not even be in the final tree, but it being early also lets us have more build flexibility in the event that we have it as a required raid buff. hard agree with you on more nodes, and your other points are pretty reasonable

[hallow sonnet]

"- Indescriminate carnage is clearly the AOE capstone, but the fan of knives and Crimson Tempest talents are on the left lane"

After reading the Mistweaver monk post. I'm not certain I totally hate these things. But it's kind of up in the air.

Like, it is quite an interesting concept that if you want to go "all in" into a concept, or an ability, then if you spread it out through the tree it creates tension. It allows each individual addition to the ability to be much more impactful and interesting.

Putting things to be straight after eachother, like f.ex the SoD talents in the Sub tree. Makes it so that the package has to be balanced and you will never see someone taking just half of it. It's either all or nothing. So it reduces choice for the player as well

[oak sky]

i definitely have a bigger problem with the fok talents being garbage than with them being spread out

and of course all your observations at the top are correct

3 point nodes could become 2 point nodes and then have a new one point talent added in, or some other solution could be made

[hallow sonnet]

Also I feel that one of the things that has happened to a lot of other reviewed spec/classes has been reducing 3pt nodes. Which feels good

[oak sky]

i'm definitely expecting them to disappear

[thorn fox]

Compare the FoK talents to Maim, Mangle and Doomblade..

• Fan of Knives = 15% damage (30% for 5+ targets), 5% crit, +5 yards range
• MM/Doomblade = 15% damage and 30% bleed over 8 seconds.

I don't feel like FoK talents need much. They aren't exciting though.

[fallen raven]

echoing blades pls

[simple gyro]

There was talk about maybe adding pathing off deathmark to lethal dose and vicious venom. That could help out some flexibility.

Like should be possible to get zoldyck and carnage if that happens

[thorn fox]

I think pathing is the biggest problem. You choose a capstone, and you have 6 mandatory talents and 1 choice on the way every time

[oak sky]

pathing is extremely linear yeah

[hallow sonnet]

Saw this talent calc posted

This talent calc. Select a talent and it will light up "All must pick" talents.

Select more, and it will X out those you can't possibly reach with the talent points you have.

So f.ex, if you select a capstone it will light up all 100% needed talents to get there.

[thorn fox]

I'd like to mess around with the optional stuff in world content, when damage doesn't count. There just aren't many options

[hallow sonnet]

https://dftalents.com/rogue/assassination

It visualizes "forced picks"

[thorn fox]

Assassination: Kingsbane and IC = 11 forced talents. Dragon Tempered Blades = 8
Outlaw: Hidden Opportunity + Greenskins = 6 forced talents. Keep it rolling = 11
Sub: The Rotten + Dark Brew = 9 mandatory talents. Shadow Myst = 10

[hallow sonnet]

I think sub is a little bit off there, because they don't have a "1st mandatory talent"

[thorn fox]

I didn't look at how "optional but really mandatory" the other talents on the paths are...

[hallow sonnet]

Like Assassination needs to pick DP no matter which talent they want

[thorn fox]

the point is to show you have choice. Assassination doesn't have as much choice, just because of the pathing of the tree

[limber lion]

How can you miss poison bomb? It's literally nothing but a passive 1% dps talent. You don't play around it at all or do anything with it.

[thorn fox]

I hope we get some news this week. It's been a while

[oak sky]

it was just him working on the havoc tree

no cause for worry

[subtle tundra]

I love random dmg

[hallow sonnet]

Now, I do personally feel that it would be much more fun (and closer to their stated goals) to make a talent tree that's open and full of choice.

But Realz made a comment. His goal was to make each of the Branches feel like a "Package". And making them play very differently. This is the main reason for how linear our trees are.
It makes things easier to balance and can create distinct playstyles around them. And have.. a bit of choice too, but in our case very minor. So you should feel a large change when you swap talents, and not just "moving a little damage from here to there"

My thoughts on this is basically that it sounds fun and could be great. If it wasn't for that all other classes have a ton of choice and agency. That all other classes gets to explore and tweak small things in order to fit the situation. And that it kind of goes against the goals that was stated when talent trees were announced

[oak sky]

i mostly just want more nodes

more cool shit good

[hallow sonnet]

Agree. More nodes. More cool stuff. Less investment into 2/3 talent points.
And ability to choose between more of this new cool stuff

[oak sky]

yep

i dont mind the end of our trees being restrictive at all though

[hallow sonnet]

Ion on Max's stream said basically: Class devs are done with everything they need to do. So from now and out they will only need to focus on talent trees.

This is good news

[oak sky]

and realz just popped in the other day so

we should have changes in the next few weeks

[hallow sonnet]

I honestly feel that if Dragon Tempered Blade + Kingsblade are so problematic to balance together. Then they should be a choice node instead of just preventing the middle Branch being able to get another capstone

[oak sky]

they could also tune the interaction

or remove it

removing it seems unlikely but

[limber lion]

It's not really tuneable tbh by the design of the talents

Either locking it out of reach like they are currently or making it a choice node is pretty much the only play. I like the idea of a choice node personally.

[hallow sonnet]

I guess only way to tune it would be to make kingsblade be 15%/amount of lethal poisons

[limber lion]

But not sure what should replace KB.

[oak sky]

or like make your 2nd lethal poison have a reduced amp on kb

[limber lion]

Because you still want Kingsbane to be good by itself.

[hallow sonnet]

If they are merged, kind of need a 3rd capstone node

[limber lion]

If you tune KB/DTB combo, you'll nerf KB by itself essentially killing the talent.

[hallow sonnet]

I dont think any other spec has just 2 capstones

[oak sky]

it could be a hard execute node

that would work

[limber lion]

KB still needs to be an attractive choice without DTB.

[hallow sonnet]

I mean you can't get KB + DTB currently

[limber lion]

Yes

Exactly

[hallow sonnet]

Ah, ok I see what you mean there

[limber lion]

They can never be allowed to be taken together

[hallow sonnet]

You could change KB to only proc on DP

[limber lion]

It's never going to be an option.

[hallow sonnet]

There's never going to be the case where you run without DP, right?

[limber lion]

No

[hallow sonnet]

Like wound + amplifying or something

[limber lion]

Nah pretty much always DP + something else

[oak sky]

i think the only possible one would be single amp right

with a kb build

but that seems unlikely to be very strong

[limber lion]

I highly, highly doubt we'd do that.

But yeah everything's down to tuning

[oak sky]

yeah that was my point

[limber lion]

But yeah I like the idea of merging DTB/Kingsbane and then having a new 3rd capstone, but not sure which one or if that would work.

Maybe pushing towards the execute niche even more on the left side with Zoldyck already there

[oak sky]

yeah i think that would be a good direction

assuming the choice node is happening ofc

[hallow sonnet]

Dispatch?

[oak sky]

outlaw has that

[hallow sonnet]

I meant the old assassination dispatch

[oak sky]

ik it was an execute thing in mop or something right

[hallow sonnet]

(Which to be fair was very weak towards the end of it's life)

[oak sky]

did it work kinda like blindside

i cant remember what ive heard

[hallow sonnet]

Yeah, could only be used under like 30%.
You could also proc it with blindside

Basically, it was how execute is now. Can use in execute range freely but (later on) had a chance for a proc to be able to use it

[vestal wren]

i didn't know that assassination could reach 2 capstones at the same time

[oak sky]

it "can"

[hallow sonnet]

It can reach left + right

but not any if they want middle

[vestal wren]

yes

[oak sky]

pretty sure you cant make any practical build with 2 capstones

dont quote me on that tho

like if we were to assume pk is good

[vestal wren]

https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/rogue/assassination/BAANVSIEQVChUETNEA

[oak sky]

that doesnt have ct

i cant see a situation where you would skip ct and want carnage

it just seems improbable

extremely improbable

[vestal wren]

true might be worth to change MM to CT

[limber lion]

At least with current tuning you also need all the FoK talents

apparently FoK slaps

but again tuning is WIP

[limber lion]

We won't be playing Amp Poison in m+ either without DTB. I don't think Amp Poison will ever see play unless you take DTB as well.

unless they crank it up to 9000

[oak sky]

especially not in an aoe scenario where you would also want carnage

[hallow sonnet]

I guess KB needs to be really good for you to want it in AoE?

[limber lion]

Well, it depends. If you're planning on taking 3x Zoldyck anyways, then using one point on KB is much more valid

it's a very massive dps gain for a single point

but I'm not too too sure if you want to spend points on getting TTB/Zoldyck in the first place in m+

[hallow sonnet]

More than f.ex bonespike?

[limber lion]

Rather take the FoK talents, SBS and so on

[hallow sonnet]

SBS being pre-req by Doomblade feels weird imo.

Sepsis too

[limber lion]

The thing is that there's a lot of things you want, so you'll likely miss out on TTB and Zoldyck because you need a lot of other stuff.

Yep it's a bit odd

[hallow sonnet]

Well I guess Blindside being prereq by maim mangle also feels really odd

[limber lion]

Doomblade is not exactly an AoE talent, SBS heavily leans towards AoE though

[oak sky]

sepsis kinda makes sense because it heavily leans into lethal dose but sbs tho

maybe for cleave it works

but not really for aoe

[limber lion]

But I think the decision also comes down to wanting to place the super strong talent under the third segment

And to do that there's not too much choice, unless you moved Doomblade somewhere else and replaced it with something else

[hallow sonnet]

I like the Maim, Mangle + Blindside nodes.
They make different abilities interact with eachother.
I think this is good design which a lot of Sub tree is lacking

[limber lion]

All the covenant abilities are pretty much must-haves in every build. They're just really really strong for what they are

and you're not choosing between 4 covenant abilities this time around

[vestal wren]

I think having several talents that you "want" seems good, as you have a decision to make

[hallow sonnet]

Agree

[vestal wren]

i wonder if the extra fok range is a good or a bad thing

[hallow sonnet]

Though it should be because you're filled up on good choices. Not because you've been forced to take a lot of bad choices

[oak sky]

neutral probably

[vestal wren]

probably comes down to dungeon design

[hallow sonnet]

30y diameter is rather huge

[limber lion]

It's 10 yards and 15 yards with the talent

30 yards indeed is super, super large. That's why it's not a thing. :P

[oak sky]

isnt 15 the radius

making 30 the diameter?

[limber lion]

oh right

english barrier

gg

[oak sky]

i basically think its gonna let us do slightly more damage when walking out i guess

[limber lion]

This is probably closer to what we will be playing.

You could snatch Zoldyck, but because it's a 3 point talent a single point doesn't really do anything.

[oak sky]

no improved poison application for fok in aoe? or is it already near 100

[limber lion]

and to get 3 points out of it, you'd need to slap 7 points to get there

[fringe yoke]

is assa rogue really that much better in full ST than the other 2 specs?

[vestal wren]

iron wire

[limber lion]

Either that or Poison Bomb

[oak sky]

right tuning thing

[limber lion]

the best talent in the entire tree lol

for m+

[oak sky]

i love iron wire

makes me feel special

[vestal wren]

yes, could be rly strong esp. with the damage reduction too

[oak sky]

yeah its the same as now

super strong

[limber lion]

No, Assa just can't pad on the motes/adds etc. as much as the other specs

so they focus more on doing damage to the boss

[fringe yoke]

makes sense.. thanks.. i miss playing assa but i dont like the 4set... jsut doesnt feel great for me

[limber lion]

It's not everyone's cup of tea.

[oak sky]

as much fun as ive had the past 2 seasons I'm fine to see it go away for the future

honestly i think i would rather not have overhang on deathmark

[limber lion]

I agree, it's been a really fun mechanic

but I'm all for new stuff every expansion/patch

love when stuff is fresh and new

[grizzled jay]

Isn't the counterpoint here the fact Outlaw itself has a lot of connections that Assassination doesn't? Maybe there's a specific reason but why is Sin the spec that needs "packages" but Outlaw doesn't?

[hallow sonnet]

I feel that sub has even less than sin.
But, I think it's mainly a question about amount of abilities, or mechanics, that each spec has.

Less abilities/mechanics means that there will be more talents relating to the same abilities/mechanics.
Which again leads to pre-requisites making it harder to move between different trees

Here's a few of Realz answers in regards to those.

#subtlety message

#subtlety message

I guess the first one is more self-contained and the other one a bit of a discussion

Another for "Branches"

#subtlety message

[grizzled jay]

Well for example Realz flooded Outlaw with a lot of their legendary effects and existing on-use talents (Greenskins, Ghostly Strike, Blade Rude, Killing Spree, Loaded Dice, Dreadblades) as well as current conduits (Sleight of Hand, Count the Odds, Triple Threat). Feels like Outlaw is keeping a lot of what they have now. It is even getting a fancy new ability (Keep it Rolling).

In comparison, Sin has a single ST Conduit returning and a lot of its talents are by-and-large mostly passive instead of active like Outlaw. The return of KB is nice but surely the tree could be made more connection by having nodes of like WPS or LP exist to connect from left-to-right or right-to-left.

[hallow sonnet]

But if you look at the outlaw tree. They don't have a ton of connectivity either.
It is a lot more than Assassination and Subtlety, for sure. But it's a ton less than plenty other specs

I agree with you, for both sin and sub, a lot of the talents are what I would call unengaging.
As in, by picking a talent - it doesn't increase the amount of decisions you have to make during combat.
It's similar to "left hand side" talents in current WoW. They don't affect your gameplay a lot.

There are some gray zone cases here. Like a talent that increases your energy/cp.
Are these engaging? They don't add any more decision points. But they change the pace you play.
Making you do your "basic" decisions more often

[violet jackal]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[ebon notch]

wdym outlaw aoe rotatoin is the single target rotation

ethics is built in

[hallow sonnet]

Taking SL conduits, as you talked about.
Well-Placed Steel conduit is totally passive.
Every single of the Covenant Conduits are totally passive.
Lethal Poisons is totally passive.
Maim, Mangle has some interaction which is neat. But in practice it's totally passive since you'll have garrote up all the time anyways.
Poisoned Katar is totally passive.

Are these really fun, tension creating and engaging effects that we would want to add in as talents?

[grizzled jay]

My thought was because they are passive they can be used to bridge sides and then the sides themselves can have more active than passive effects. That's clearly the design space Outlaw has at least.

[hallow sonnet]

I would prefer a world where there are more engaging talents. Doesn't need to be all new abilities, but things that allow you to express skill and knowledge if you want to. At the cost of more passive effects.

If we had this, then I feel not being able to easily cross over the trees would feel more "ok". Because then what Realz stated, that each branch playing differently would actually feel different. And not simply just have different damage breakdowns that you only see when you check logs

[drowsy hollow]

Passive isn't necessarily bad if thematic. One of the sub talents I think is amazing is the capstone that changes bleeds and nature into shadow.

[thorn fjord]

Good luck today boiz

[gusty mirage]

Thank you sir. You as well

[thorn fjord]

So sin is top for ST in raid now?

[limber lion]

No

Might have been with the court ring

not anymore

:--)

[viscid spear]

[vestal wren]

all 3 are close, highest simming with optimized gear is outlaw

[gusty mirage]

ily

my boy

[vestal wren]

[gusty mirage]

wild

back to back lol

got the bit band last week

and logic loop this week

[dark crag]

We dropped 2 logic loops in one +22 run with 2 ringless guys

[limber lion]

wtfffffffffffffff

that's insane

that's hot af

🔥

[gusty mirage]

it was that or a 311 chest

which I'd only use in keys as outlul

[limber lion]

I had a 311 neck or a 311 chest last week and I took the neck

if they never changed the court ring, the chest would have been massive giga stonks

glad they did

a lot of people got sick parses already with the bugged ring though

[brazen zodiac]

f

[misty holly]

Has anyone tried using Eye of Command? It seems to sim okay but I worry it's not taking into account stack drops.

[limber lion]

I use it 24/7

it's really good

mouseover macros coming in clutch

[gusty mirage]

I'd have to have seen one drop to use it

unlucky

[misty holly]

Hmm, if I dont use mouseover macros is it bad then?

Im definitely not doing that just for a trinket lol

[limber lion]

No, it's still really really good

[misty holly]

I pretty much have never clicked anything during combat ever. My right mouse button is down 100% of the time

[limber lion]

especially in ST

[misty holly]

learning to play mouseover would be like starting at zero for me

[limber lion]

Same

[violet jackal]

Stacks only drop o. Auto attacks if you are quick and rupture a 2nd and swap back no drop 😎

[brazen zodiac]

😎

[violet jackal]

Also I noticed we really generate stacks hella fast like 2 seconds in 10 stacks fast

[brazen zodiac]

we're just cool 😎

[misty holly]

yeah that is good, fast stacks

Ill probably try it out. Im sure its good for raiding anyways

[limber lion]

You can also apply bleeds at an angle where your character won't melee

Your character only melees in a 45 degree cone in front of your character, but you can apply bleeds at a 90 degree angle

[violet jackal]

My guild thinks I’m crazy when I tell them you can control the algorithm of tab targeting either the angle of your camera

[limber lion]

Quite a common practice in pvp

[gusty mirage]

absolute gamer move

learned that in pvp

in bfa

cheese out an extra few miliseconds from that CC

[limber lion]

Yep

won't break sap until the rupture ticks for the first time

[fallow canopy]

alright I guess

[gusty mirage]

welcome fellow 304 mechagon ring gamer

@limber lion necro sin keys are surprisingly a ton of fun

but I think mastery might be the play over crit or haste

[fallow canopy]

🤝 just the one I needed

[spice spire]

Haste seeks to be the play over crit at the very least.
Haven’t tried mastery

[gusty mirage]

yeah haste is goodish

crit is whatever

we're already at like 40%+ crit anyway

[spice spire]

Crit feels good on venthyr

Feels very good

[gusty mirage]

I want to try mastery

I know we take the L on sudden fractures

but who knows

[spice spire]

I’ll probably try mastery this week

[misty holly]

Am I allowed in the club?

[spice spire]

Interesting theory

[gusty mirage]

close enough

[spice spire]

Protecting bit band

(I’m dead inside)

[gusty mirage]

I want the heal one

at 304

for keys

like unironically

[spice spire]

If you’re behind you heal?

That seems not bad

[gusty mirage]

it's giga good for grievous weeks

[brazen zodiac]

perma leech

[spice spire]

Ye

[gusty mirage]

a buddy of mine doesn't have the haste

so he runs the heal one and it healed for like 800k in a dungeon

lol

I bet you could come up with some degen comps for keys with that ring

[brazen zodiac]

@subtle tundra https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7wmeTjix8uuaXJX8zXxNkd does it seem weird that 304 would beat my EoN in main for m+? (thinkin about the time u mentioned EoN being good in m+)

[limber lion]

No, but what is weird is you not simming it for offhand

[brazen zodiac]

i thought i did

[limber lion]

304 main hand typically beats a 298 main hand

You did not.

[brazen zodiac]

ah i see what you mean now, thanks one sec

just woke up xd

[subtle tundra]

youre welcome!

[gusty mirage]

ty

[brazen zodiac]

yeah sim'd properly, makes more sense now lol. thanks again

[limber lion]

npnp

[brazen zodiac]

im feelin the EoN drop tonight 😎

[subtle tundra]

tomorrow*

cause we based EU

[brazen zodiac]

typical american thinking everyone american zzzzzzz

u gettin it tomorrow for sure varas

[subtle tundra]

i have 2x

[brazen zodiac]

oh

ur cool

[thorn fjord]

major pog @gusty mirage

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kXvtXJYT9Q5ccNj8nDPzru trying to get a 20k+ sim in sin and i keep coming up sooo short 😦

[limber lion]

just use haste tea

:)

[brazen zodiac]

tara in lfr without everbeating

[thorn fjord]

sanctum weeks best weeks

[brazen zodiac]

oh yeah this is fantastic

[limber lion]

gonna miss this weeks raid

feelsbadman'

[spice spire]

How dare you have irl stuff

[limber lion]

actually disgusting

[ebon lichen]

sin boys i need your help. Got a 291 decanter of endless howling in vault however i want to try and get the salvaged fusion amplifier from raid this week. My other choice out of vault is 304 gloves. I do m+ and raid heroic casually this season with the guild. Any ideas which would be the better choice?

[spice spire]

On god dude

A sim would do wonders

[violet jackal]

sim it

[ebon lichen]

stupid question, how do i sim specific items out of my current set up

[spice spire]

Open your vault

/simc

And it takes into account your vault in a top gear sim

[ebon lichen]

do you have to use an add on with this?

[limber lion]

Yes, the simulationcraft addon

and Raidbots.com

[spice spire]

Simulationcraft

[ebon lichen]

gotcha. thank you

[spice spire]

^

[ebon lichen]

will do.

[spice spire]

Yeah it’s better than guess work

Because if we’re wrong it just feels bad

[brazen zodiac]

what u doin this week

[limber lion]

Work

[ebon lichen]

no i apprecaite the info, i had no idea how to sim every item like. I guess my question was more in general about the trinkets. If i should use a vault and just pick up the howling to use instead of the salvaged amplifier. not necessarily dps wise but which would be better playstyle wise for m+. im not trying to min/max every aspect, after i get another EON this week im just going to take whatever is higher out of my vault going forward

[brazen zodiac]

fun

[limber lion]

I would personally value the 304 items over the 291 items.

So I'd take the gloves if you don't have them yet

Much easier to get the decanter later

[timid haven]

So is crit always the coice as ass in keys or does haste have value at some point before very high keys such as 25s

[violet jackal]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[violet jackal]

I think it's Haste always for necrolord but fuu's spreadhseet has a pretty section for this

[limber lion]

Haste in Junkyard, crit everywhere else

[timid haven]

Yeah im Necro

Im lookn at the spreadsheet and it seems pretty close but crit is slightly ahead

Thanks Fuu!

[subtle tundra]

i missed this weeks raid dont worry!

rip 10 mythic tokens

[limber lion]

Yeh and everyone gets 2 dinar items next week and enough upgrade tokens for one

gonna be so behind

sadge

[subtle tundra]

fuu simmed bounties

and if you play necro you go haste

also i can vouch for the haste

it feels good

[timid haven]

Thanks. I was curious cuz i tried haste last week and it felt nice

[subtle tundra]

i played necro with haste in 25s

[timid haven]

Nice then sounds like I was right lol

[subtle tundra]

i mean i havent tried crit

but the numbers said haste

[subtle tundra]

yea feels bad but in a week or two ill just get traded a lot

hopefully

(my raid drops have been fuckin AWFUL)

[vocal lion]

man i hate scars, an good alternative?

[limber lion]

kihra's adrenaline injector

[viscid spear]

Just get that one power that causes you to take less AoE damage, what was it called again...

[vocal lion]

and from raid?

[spice spire]

Uh fusion amp

[violet jackal]

oddly intangible key

[spice spire]

Keep yourself safe

There’s a hit out on the grue tonight

[brazen zodiac]

i think i did haha

got feared into chain stun into another fear, total of like 15+ seconds lmfao

got myself a glass of water and my ass was still cced lmfaoo

[viscid spear]

[vocal lion]

umm i have a 304 dagger and an edge.. should i take another edge of the night?

from dinar*

[spice spire]

Probably with your third to be safe?
But if you don’t have a trinket that you need, that’s a nice place for it

[thorn fjord]

using my second token for vein ripper

feels bad

[spice spire]

Silence yellow name

(This is a joke)

[gusty mirage]

just drop the jailer mh

4head

[thorn fjord]

big 4head

[violet jackal]

My sims show that double edge of night is not the play if you aren't getting a mythic one

[gusty mirage]

yeah that was always the case

even in 9.1

double eon was never the play if you weren't getting mythic

[violet jackal]

yea i was just responding to the above question from deretor

[vocal lion]

16k overall in m+ feels poor to me

[violet jackal]

sounds poor

is your ilvl 300 or above?

[vocal lion]

290

[violet jackal]

still doesn't sound right link sim 🙂

[vocal lion]

give me a sec

[limber lion]

It's not the sim lol...

What do you do on AoE

[vocal lion]

not dugeon slice option?

[limber lion]

I mean it does not matter what your sim looks like

if you're 290 ilvl and only do 16k overall

[violet jackal]

blame the tank, they are probably eating mage food in between pulls 🙂

[vocal lion]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/eFjqBQJsmvhT6bB3wbxmjs

[limber lion]

Again, your sim doesn't tell us anything

Gotta know what you do in the actual dungeon

[vocal lion]

ty for the help

[brazen zodiac]

lol

whats ur aoe rotation friend

[limber lion]

.

[vocal lion]

give me a moment

on phone

[sturdy merlin]

As a french speaker, that back’s name made me laugh

[timid haven]

Do u spam tempest in aoe?

[spice spire]

No

Tempest is a bleed

[timid haven]

didnt think so

someone was tryna arge with me about it lol

[spice spire]

You just kee it up

[sturdy merlin]

It’s just a dot like the others

[timid haven]

Oh i know. He didnt lol

[spice spire]

Iirc, there’s a point where it’s fine to, but really almost never

[violet jackal]

I think it's at 240 targets 🤔

[misty holly]

so gambit?

[violet jackal]

maybe if you pull the whole room at once and lust

[spice spire]

Fish stick prio damage

[sturdy merlin]

Wouldn’t poison bomb be better in a pack like this ?

[limber lion]

never.

[sturdy merlin]

[violet jackal]

I wish

[spice spire]

Did I just hear the forbidden talent?

[sturdy merlin]

I miss it

[spice spire]

[subtle tundra]

get out

ty

[spice spire]

Why tho

[sturdy merlin]

using CT in single target is… idk

[violet jackal]

^

[spice spire]

I like the juggle

I’m bad at it, but I like it

[violet jackal]

I like the splash sounds give me endorphins

[thorn fjord]

Why all the PB hate

I hate using CT period... just let me smash Env

[vocal lion]

FoK, rupture on 2 or 3 targets, CT, and vendetta shiv in the big guy

[slow marsh]

same

[misty holly]

There's a lot of stuff that can influence M+ dps beyond just rotational issue.

smaller pulls less dps

grouping with survival hunters who kill everything in 10 seconds

makes your dots sad

[thorn fjord]

Or

OR

[limber lion]

Yes

[thorn fjord]

you could play Pirate and kill everything in 10 seconds yourself 😛

[subtle tundra]

LOL

[sturdy merlin]

What was the dungeon and the key lvl

[spice spire]

Side not, did you ever get your shit?

[subtle tundra]

outlaw does not do that

thats very copium

[thorn fjord]

It does if you believe

[spice spire]

Where’s the opener garrotes

[vocal lion]

and garrote xD

[thorn fjord]

maybe not 10 seconds... more like 17 seconds

[sturdy merlin]

According to his sim he plays MA

[vocal lion]

always

[spice spire]

Problem A.

Subterfuge is pretty good

Provides utility

[vocal lion]

with Vent too?

[thorn fjord]

makes it feel like we still have SS

oh how I miss SS

[spice spire]

Yes

Always subterfuge in m+

[thorn fjord]

Wait isnt SS coming back in DF?

[spice spire]

4x garrote > Ct > into cycling fok and finishers is a way to keep energy moving, and provides fluidity to pack damage

Yes it is @thorn fjord

[slow marsh]

no =[

[spice spire]

[slow marsh]

might need to file a complaint or something idk how that works

[spice spire]

Yeah

I guarantee you I fucked up somewhere too.
Idk how sending mail is easy as fuck these days

[slow marsh]

Wish I could tell you xD

[violet jackal]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[thorn fjord]

whats in the box

[violet jackal]

I have to wati 3.5 hours to check

[viscid mantle]

!fuu

[spice spire]

6 hours

[vestal wren]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[drowsy hollow]

With those priest class tree changes, I think the kyrian abilities days are numbered. Especially with two specs having their own versions

Priest continues the trend of culling throughput in class trees to focus it in specs.

[main solar]

Wouldn't be surprised to see a completely revamped class tree in that case. The 3 pathways thing doesn't seem like it lends well in a world where the tree is mostly utility

[balmy condor]

also have to remember that it's different developers

and priest isn't a pure dps class

not as easy as saying "well X class did Y so ours must be the same!"

[main solar]

To be fair, there's been multiple classes getting the treatment, including pure dps classes like warlock. But yes, we'll have to wait to see if and when we get an update and it's not a for sure thing.

[storm onyx]

Tbf, ER branch somewhat renders our class tree with 2 choices; Tea is not known for now, so 1 way to go, Assasination wise

[main solar]

Also, Alacrity on alpha confuses me. Obviously the tooltip is incorrect (20% haste per stack at 3pts? lmao) and the actual functionality is just how it works on live atm. But it does seem to imply the actual haste gained is what increases per point, not the proc chance like i'm pretty sure was said here for a bit? Was that changed without being aware of it?

[drowsy hollow]

It remains to be seen if they even bother to make soulkeeper or eye an impactful dps choice for locks. Right now it's like 1-2%

[main solar]

Nothing wrong with a capstone not being relevant to all 3 specs as long as they still have some options. But I do think its weird that the 2 specs that could use it also have their own "charged combo point" talents already, so its kind of redundant

[drowsy hollow]

It just feels ripe for pruning with current trends.

[storm onyx]

If it was Flag, least its useful for all 3 specs, then i would understand

[main solar]

All 3 specs have sepsis as an option in their spec tree too

[storm onyx]

I would have understood if it was a choice node too, but it being a complete branch itself causes the tree to be virtually 1 branch less

Its overvalued there

[main solar]

Well again, that's only in the case fot assassination. Its the class and has to think about all 3 specs, not just assassination. It'd be the same as thistle tea (assuming it gets tuned to be good) being worthless for outlaw, but still having the option of ER and SD

[ember remnant]

How is scars in keys? I heard it breaks stealth. I'm wondering what to get as 3rd option. Already got cache from vault

[storm onyx]

Problem is that, why have an end branch automatically unusable to any of the specs? If 2 of end branches are not desirable in any content, then why have 3 branches... I am not just complaining couse it doesnt fit my spec

[violet jackal]

I'd imagine scars sims really high but won't feel great in M+

[main solar]

If there was 1 dead talent for all 3 specs, I could see that argument. But at that point its less of "why have 3 branches" and more "how can we make this option more enticing/useful". Like with thistle tea now that in its current state is bad, but could see changes. If each capstone is useful to at least 2 of the 3 specs, that seems fine to me. Clearly designed for one spec in mind, but is an option if you want to venture off. If its only good for one spec, again seems like a tuning thing to look at, or maybe something thats a better fit for the spec tree.

[violet jackal]

I'm curious if it makes you hold 4 runes until the end of the dungeon or does it 5th rune on bosses and rebuilds

[ember remnant]

Can you right click scars buff? Or it has to go thru all the runes?

[violet jackal]

we have to wait for one of the great ones to answer that

[ember remnant]

[balmy condor]

hold 4 runes forever

[balmy condor]

I think you might be able to right click it but that seems super stupid considering the trinket goes on cooldown regardless

[celest ruin]

cant remove the scars buff

[subtle tundra]

Doesn't it make sense to pop it on really big pulls? I don't think dslice has that

So you can't know

[balmy condor]

how big

[subtle tundra]

10 mobs?

[balmy condor]

lets find out

[violet jackal]

[subtle tundra]

Should do a couple hundred thousdand dmg

[spice spire]

The true gambit tech is to skip the entire first part - clear the dungeon, after last boss port to the murloc area, pull the entire area, and all dps pop their final rune at once

[balmy condor]

I'm not convinced really because dslice has pulls of 7 and it isn't worth there either

but we can try bumping up target counts

[subtle tundra]

Like in lower Kara you have many pulls where you want to pop

In like 15 mobs

And lower is the prime dungeon where you play it

For maiden

[ember remnant]

Gambit murlok pulls

[subtle tundra]

Not reallt

The smallies die too fast and by the time it explodes the biggies will be running around

And even in double pulls, it's not even huge pull size

[viscid spear]

I'll hold you 5ever
(that's more than 4ever)

[violet jackal]

@balmy condor where the report? is it worth at 10 or 20 mobs?

[balmy condor]

struggling with the plumbers atm

replacing my water heater

[violet jackal]

ah

[brazen zodiac]

them damn plumbers

[obtuse robin]

thats def code word for something else

[viscid spear]

You kids and your lingo
ngl pretty cringe tbqh wy fam ong fr

[obtuse robin]

[thorn fjord]

Oh no Ash is having a strke

stroke*

[spice spire]

He had to listen to me for one raid, and this is what he became

[thorn fjord]

You guys should let me come to your heroic clear this week 😛

[spice spire]

If my guild has one more rogue join us, there will be a mutiny I feel 😛

[thorn fjord]

🤣

Just play your warrior

[spice spire]

I think one raid was like

4-5

[spice spire]

In two weeks

[thorn fjord]

i bet those bosses died quick

[spice spire]

They sure did

Lady innerva lived for 150 seconds

[thorn fjord]

We stopped doing heroic so i've gotta pug it

oof

Ending at like 21k

Saucy

Arent you GM of your guild?

[spice spire]

I am currently

Unsure of the long term on another specific officer but ye

I am not raid lead though I made it abundantly clear that I’m that person’s bitch for 2.5 hours just like everyone else

[thorn fjord]

GMing seems like it would be hella stressful

no thanks lol

[spice spire]

Not really

It’s a nice group

[thorn fjord]

my guild consists of a bunch of trolls lol

But i've been raiding with alot of them since the end of legion

GM and I used to raid lead together in NH through Argus

[spice spire]

Yeah so I came in as a member of the guild - became an officer and was just given GM. I do think the other officer is a much better fit for the role than I am - but it’s pretty easy going.
That and the goal is AotC first then mythic after - makes a low stress environment

Sub ten hours a week even in df, makes it nice

[thorn fjord]

Yeah sub ten is def the way to go

We dropped down to 6 hours for S4

Usually do 9

[spice spire]

We’ve been a 5 hour, but raid lead wants to invest more time into mythic going into new expansion, go going up to 7.5-8 hour

Big gamers Ik

[cobalt hemlock]

a week or day?

[thorn fjord]

I'm happy we're going casual till DF... Raiding 3 nights a week takes it toll

[spice spire]

A week

[cobalt hemlock]

thank god

[spice spire]

Two days a week, 2.5 hour raid times

And we may shift that around to two 3s and an alt later or whatever. But ik rl wants the extra day

[cobalt hemlock]

yeah my guild is same as that

[spice spire]

It’s nice, big fan of it.
Though makes it a pain on the harder prog bosses

[ember remnant]

big fan of knives, one might say

[spice spire]

Very true

[deft vault]

can you pre stack scars on pull to have 4stacks and like 2 seconds before pull pop the 5th one ?

[elder jasper]

I can't find the pinned message for where we're crafting our legendaries and what stats we are using, could someone help me out please

[iron vigil]

Its under the FAQ tab on the left