assassination

[subtle tundra]

SHUT UP

sorry.

soryr

[burnt latch]

Is ok i cried tho

Kinda feeling bad rn

[subtle tundra]

😭

[burnt latch]

Is ok i know u r little silly goose boy

[spice spire]

Deep thoughts with Varas

[empty hinge]

How deep tho

[subtle tundra]

this deep

[empty hinge]

[pulsar apex]

this image

how am i doing rupture after flag on the opener?

have i MfD pre-pull?

hmm then i cant do it after the rupture. im being dumb and missing something

[limber lion]

Yes, you're missing something

The thing you're missing, is that this is just an image of the cooldown usage.

Your opener is still Muti - Slice - Muti - Gar every single time

[pulsar apex]

riight

[limber lion]

But you press those buttons in that order every single time pretty much

when you have cd's ready

but you don't do muti - slice - muti - gar anywhere else than the opener

[pulsar apex]

oh yes and as venth i dont open with ambush

[limber lion]

No

Literally the first gcd as Ambush is fine

but you never press Ambush ever again

so it's just not worth it

[pulsar apex]

right

ok ty ty

[vestal wren]

time to farm m+ i guess

[vast loom]

Wait im confused

Is that 2 sylv daggers at mythic

Or is this about eye of command

[vestal wren]

eoc

[limber lion]

already got it

[vast loom]

Same :)

I also got cache out of the cache quest

[vestal wren]

eoc did become bis for many profiles, i did re-sim combinations and for patchwerk and two targets its the highets simming one now

[vast loom]

So I'm still playing outlaw til 2 eon

[pulsar apex]

hmm i also have a 1.5 min CD trinket. I used to line that up with Sepsis. im just lining it up with every other vendetta now I suppose?

[vestal wren]

i mean.. you can also always play outlaw

[limber lion]

Which trinket?

Dreadfire Vessel?

[pulsar apex]

skulkers wing

[vast loom]

yeah, i am i just got good outlaw weapons atm, i got a heroic cache and heroic fusion amp which feels pretty good, did EoC get better in the outlaw sims?

[limber lion]

Yeh just press it on cooldown.

Vendetta/Shiv does not increase its damage

Nothing does

[pulsar apex]

ok so just make sure its CDing

[limber lion]

Well, Sub/Outlaw both have ways to increase the damage, but we don't.

We only sync stat-increase trinkets with CD's

like Sigil and Kihra's

[pulsar apex]

i got a couple of trinkets this week - but nothing great

[vast loom]

yeah but Sin ST is fun, i just get bored and lik to swap a lot lol i might even try Sub a bit once i get 2 eon

[vestal wren]

fun is the most important thing

[vast loom]

yeah, i just like to swap a lot 🙂 i usually play a differnt class/role every tier >.>

[limber lion]

there's other classes and specs?

:O

why didn't anyone tell me

[vast loom]

Started on Brew in Nya then Prot war in Nathria, Shadow/Disc in SoD

now rogue

but ive actaully been improving a lot on rogue so i might stay for a bit

3 dps specs lets me swap when im bored without me feeling like i need a huge catchup

[balmy condor]

Yeah I found that out yesterday too apparently outlaw exists

[gusty mirage]

does it though

[balmy condor]

Yeah I mean you were cranking papi

[gusty mirage]

yeah I still don't know how the spec does damage

[spice spire]

Whíspyr an outlaw main now

[gusty mirage]

it just does

[spice spire]

Damn

We truly live in a society

[gusty mirage]

nothing on that spec makes sense

[spice spire]

It just got buffed man

Dw

[gusty mirage]

I've had people ask me "how are you doing 35k in 3 target"

and I'm like bro idk

I'm pressing the same buttons I press the other times

[spice spire]

“I hit blade flurry”

[gusty mirage]

sometimes you just start cranking

for no fucking reason

well I'm sure there's a reason

but I don't care enough to figure it out

[spice spire]

Pain was running a fucking rat ws with dk and Vel on outlaw.
I could have afk’d at the beginning and it was still a free 3 chest

Spec is absolutely nutso in keys rn

[ember mural]

God bless

[strange python]

Feral

[fleet anchor]

You an Outlaw main now?!

[lucid birch]

Hey

[gusty mirage]

dear god no

just for keys

[balmy condor]

So you’re an outlaw main now?

He’s just like me fr

239 veinripper enjoyer

[limber lion]

I guess I need to play it as well

just to give the weapon some value

[thorn fjord]

Pirates life for me

[slow marsh]

the prophecy was fulfilled

[fleet anchor]

I hate you btw

[thorn fjord]

How bad was Sylv LFR?

[fleet anchor]

7 Veinripper users in our raid all failed to get one from all 4 difficulties the last couple days. I'm salty.

[fleet whale]

i haven't done sylv lfr yet but fated lfr so far for me has gone by well

[spice spire]

Bad

[spice spire]

Just get EoN to really get your revenge

[thorn fjord]

1 shot Norm Sylv in a pug yesterday afternoon so i had hope lol

[limber lion]

Just did it

[thorn fjord]

Trying LFR today

[limber lion]

13 minutes

If you're not pumping, it's gonna take a long, long time.

[gusty mirage]

oh god

[limber lion]

So bring a friend or two with your who can help you pump

[gusty mirage]

you experienced what I did

[limber lion]

Yeh, very fun

[fleet anchor]

I saw a combined like 40 Rogues worth of Sylv kills this week across all the difficulties with zero EoN drops

[gusty mirage]

I've decided that I'm not pugging any difficulty

I can't handle it

[thorn fjord]

lol

[gusty mirage]

it's not fun wiping to enrage on sylv

[thorn fjord]

Normal isnt awful

[gusty mirage]

because people are doing 5k dps

bro

I wiped on lfr

3 times

[fleet anchor]

Lucky you with 1 person to help you 😛

[balmy condor]

That buffed drop rate coming in clutch

[thorn fjord]

lol

[fleet anchor]

Better than my last attempts at LFR

[gusty mirage]

the 2 tanks were 4th and 5th on dps

[thorn fjord]

This is the way i suppose

🤣

[vestal wren]

but... they increased the drop rate

[gusty mirage]

nice so I'll see 1.5 mythic ones after 13 kills instead of just 1?

[limber lion]

Yep

[fleet anchor]

This was my Normal Sire last week

[paper crane]

I one shot lfr sylv with only 3 people doing over 10k. Was doing 12k myself. Had like half the raid dead last phase when people didn’t jump platforms and got one shot

[thorn fjord]

i didnt even bother running normal Sire... i should have though

[fleet anchor]

Now everyone has a conspiracy theory that they lowered the drop chance on accident like that one time in WoD or w/e 😛

[thorn fjord]

Wouldnt be surprised tbh

and they'll fix it 3 weeks before DF launch

[pulsar apex]

heya. can venthyr ass use subterfuge in M+?

or stay MA?

[limber lion]

Always use Subterfuge in m+

[pulsar apex]

tyty

[limber lion]

Regardless of covenant

[subtle tundra]

I also had almost 14 minute kill on hc, normal and lfr

[strange python]

Bro outlaw channel is wild

[outer cairn]

@limber lion for your plater profile, SBS doesn't seem to be showing. Simple way to add?

[limber lion]

SBS makes the entire nameplate green my guy

[outer cairn]

Wasn’t tracking that. Thanks.

[spice spire]

What if you’re colorblind

(I just use guesswork)

[gusty mirage]

then don't use his profile

crazy concept

[spice spire]

It’s literal bis tho

Checkmate

[gusty mirage]

you're a genetic disaster

checkmate

[limber lion]

Colorblind or not, I can assure you that you can most certainly tell the difference between a yellow, red and green nameplate by the shade.

[spice spire]

You can’t

[limber lion]

unless you're like super colorblind who can only see one shade of grey

[gusty mirage]

then learn the correct shade of grey

checkmate

[spice spire]

Red and green are the issues, but I’m not a monochromat- but it’s intuitive I’m just being a smart ass

[gusty mirage]

makes sense that your ass is the smartest part of you

GOT EM

[spice spire]

You done?

[fleet anchor]

Plater profiles are a crutch. Just keep track in your head

[spice spire]

God bless

[limber lion]

The red is pretty dark red and the green is pretty light. But even then you can change all the colors/shades in the nameplate itself

[gusty mirage]

no I got about 15 more years of frustration to take out on you

[spice spire]

Keeping track of deathspike in your head

[limber lion]

Make a default plate white and the sbs plate black

[spice spire]

Probably just making the SBs plate black is the play

[fleet anchor]

Just cast Deathspike randomly, trying to make sense of the cleaving is a lost cause anyway

[gusty mirage]

you guys track things in this game?

[spice spire]

Just hit buttons

[gusty mirage]

true

someone queue the parse meme

[limber lion]

true

I play without any addons and trackers

in fact I play with my monitor switched off entirely

[gusty mirage]

we found the secret sauce boys

[limber lion]

allows me to focus on the sounds more intensely that way

[fleet anchor]

You have your whole rotation for the fight memorized anyway

[spice spire]

Mechanics? Memorized

[gusty mirage]

not the one I was thinking of, but YOINK

[spice spire]

There’s 24857482 outcomes possible, and only one where Cev doesn’t parse a 99+, or whatever doctor strange said

[gusty mirage]

[spice spire]

Yeah that’s a banger too

[limber lion]

SOD can suck a fat nut, because trying to do well when your game freezes once every 10s is tough

idk why SOD is so terribly optimized

CN was fine, Sepulcher was good

[spice spire]

Yeah I was wondering that on painsmith

I’d just randomly spike mid fucking spikes

And grue trash is

Not too many issues outside of that, but haven’t done sylv this week - I expect many issues

[limber lion]

Sylv is the worst

because of the mote-affix

[spice spire]

Oh god

P2 mote affix

[violet jackal]

Sanctum of Domination was a flawless designed raid and I will not be gaslit to believe otherwise

[spice spire]

[limber lion]

[fleet anchor]

Gonna be a YouTube series in a few years talking about how SoD was a "hidden gem" of a raid and "underrated"

People already had a really short memory about it in S3

[spice spire]

People deadass missing BfA and WoD was WILD to me

I liked some bfa dungeon design (think AD) a bit more

[gusty mirage]

ataldazar was ass

what is wrong with you

[fleet anchor]

I mean I miss WoD

Literally WoD's only problem was high-end casual content

Being non-existent

WoD's raids were fucking awesome

BRF and HFC shit on everything they have done in BfA and SL

[spice spire]

It was a quick shot - and note liking a bit more implies unlike it a bit more than SL design, not overall

[gusty mirage]

AD was anything but a quick shot at higher keys

it was misery

[spice spire]

It was three pulls buddy

[gusty mirage]

the design had you backtracking

[spice spire]

[gusty mirage]

constantly

what a GREAT dungeon design

WOW

[spice spire]

Someone isn’t a top enjoyer

[gusty mirage]

top wasn't as egregious as AD

at least when you finished the wing

it took you close to the center

but yes

TOP was also ass

[fleet anchor]

M+ players loved Atal. Pull everything and snap it to a pixel on the bridge then AoE everything. For most players I suspect it wasn't really the most popular key in the universe. But it was always pretty easy.

[spice spire]

Oh top is a top tier dungeon to me

[fleet anchor]

Atal without snaps would be hell

[gusty mirage]

atal on a higher key tyran

yazma

[spice spire]

They remove gorechop and it’s the best dungeon this tier

[gusty mirage]

great boss fight

gorechop isn't even the worst boss

xav is

[spice spire]

Bro

I think that mechanic is sick

Ngl

[gusty mirage]

yep

2 of your DPS waste 10s to get a shitty buff that doesn't even compensate for losing them during that time

• his jumps 1 shotting at 25+ tyrans

great boss

[spice spire]

I said the mechanic is sick

Not the reward

Reward is garbage

[gusty mirage]

which means its a dogshit boss for timed content

[thin pivot]

the other bosses were sick in top

just not xav

[gusty mirage]

Xav is by far the worst dungeon boss this expac

and that includes third boss sanguine

[spice spire]

What about second boss sanguine?

[gusty mirage]

2nd boss is fine

as long as the apes don't stun the add

[spice spire]

I actually hate executioner with a passion

[thin pivot]

lol remember the start of SL when 2nd boss castigate lasted like 8 seconds and did triple damage

[spice spire]

The two middle bosses in sanguine are painful

[gusty mirage]

I'd rather do executioner than Xav

[spice spire]

In a 25?

Yes

[gusty mirage]

if you had a rogue & hunter, 2nd boss was perfectly fine

you'd turtle/cloak one

vanish/feign the other

[spice spire]

In a 20? I take xav

[gusty mirage]

you're high

[spice spire]

The stupid jump does too much damage

[gusty mirage]

oh trust me

I'm well aware

I went from 98% to dead

in 1 jump

[spice spire]

Interactive fights are neat, id be cool with more similar, but just. More reward to gain kinda deal

[gusty mirage]

interactive fights are neat

but not in timed content

long RP

the stupid angels in spires

[spice spire]

Because the first procc’d cheat?

[gusty mirage]

great aesthetic

shit for timed content

[spice spire]

Oh RP can go away

Twiddle my thumbs and watch the same shit I’ve seen 500 times this tier

[gusty mirage]

either design the dungeons for M+ or don't

don't do this half and half shit

[spice spire]

I can agree to that

[gusty mirage]

ToP is a great m0 dungeon

ToP is a shitty m+ dungeon

do you remember season 1? when it was faster to have your healer die in the last 5% of gorechop

and activate the RP?

[spice spire]

Yeah

Was not a fan

[gusty mirage]

great dungeon

WOW

[spice spire]

Idk man top just hits for me

It too is a worthless pos I guess

[gusty mirage]

you like top because you're a sin OTP

and that was the go-to dungeon for sin in s1 and s2

it's the same reason I loved king's rest when everyone else in the universe hated it

[dawn merlin]

Oh ye king's rest felt great as sin

[spice spire]

That’s fair enough

Gonna be wild when I’m sub rogue in DF

[gusty mirage]

they bring back our beloved shrouded suffocation

and you spit on our faces like this?

[vestal wren]

correct decision

[spice spire]

This is the best joke I’ve said this week

[fleet anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/welcome-to-the-crew-lad-davy-jones-potc-liars-dice-jack-sparrow-gif-22528510

[spice spire]

Have been enjoying sub actually and unironically.

Still can’t enjoy outlaw

But it’s blasting rn

[fleet anchor]

Nobody gets to play Sub. Everyone forced to play Outlaw unless you agree to be the one Atrophic Poison bot

[vestal wren]

atrophic will be on class tree

[ebon notch]

who hurt u

[spice spire]

You

[ebon notch]

what i do

[spice spire]

By leaving us

[ebon notch]

huh

ill come back to assa

im farming valor for it

i played it for KT

[spice spire]

I know I’m colorblind but yellow isn’t reddish pink

[ebon notch]

wait what

warrior??

im actually colourblind so

[vestal wren]

he talks about your role color

[ebon notch]

oh isee

this is reddish pink?

[spice spire]

Outlaw = yellow
Sin = reddish pink

[ebon notch]

oh

I SEE

[spice spire]

Are you monochromatic?

[ebon notch]

id rather be red

but

assa has less prio

the role

[spice spire]

Because I’m dichromatic and they’re pretty easy to differentiate

[ebon notch]

in this discord

so if i have assa and outlaw

it defaults to outlaw colour

[spice spire]

Ik

I’m memeing papi Damn

[ebon notch]

deuteranopia

[ebon notch]

im tired sry

[spice spire]

Yeah so you’re dichromatic

Surprised you can’t tell the difference

[ebon notch]

i can tell the difference

but i cant name them

like you said reddish pink

to me outlaw looks just solid red

[spice spire]

[ebon notch]

not outlaw

assa

[spice spire]

Ohhhhh

[ebon notch]

bro im so fucking tired

[spice spire]

Lmfao

You should get some sleep papi

[ebon notch]

tell me you understand so i dont have to try explain

[spice spire]

I do

You’re good

[ebon notch]

sick

xoxo

[spice spire]

[pure raptor]

had long break wow will assassination be good in df?

[vestal wren]

yes

[celest ruin]

is there a cap for the raid upgrade tokens that drop from bosses?

[vestal wren]

the number of bosses in the difficultly

[celest ruin]

so i have a 298 eon and another 298 offhand dagger, whats the best % to weaponswap to eon? is it the same 25% as sub?

[subtle tundra]

you always use

[celest ruin]

from the get go? is it not worth using normal daggers when boss is high hp?

[violet jackal]

weapon swapping mid combat sounds cringe, we don't do that here

[thorn fjord]

Outlaw is mad fun now in keys imo

and what Quake said its BLASTIN

was on the way to ending the nine at like 24k with pirate but i died on some dumb shit at like 12%

[spice spire]

You probably can swap but when you have 298s across it’s a wash. It’s fine to keep it.

[ruby jungle]

hes not even raiding mythic btw

[violet jackal]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[hot root]

im sorry...

[ruby jungle]

^ yeah thats the rogue

[thorn fjord]

wtf dude

and he has an Eye

WTFFFFF

lol

feelsbadman

[pulsar apex]

approaching 10K flux

worth getting all the condiuits?

mine are a mish mash of 226+

[hot root]

ofc, if u dont need for some legendary crafting

[pulsar apex]

ah yes i actually forgot it used for legs

[thorn fjord]

used for item upgrades to set pieces too

[vocal lion]

its assasination only viable on raid content?

[vestal wren]

the tier set is fairly single target focused

so.. kinda not great in m+

[subtle tundra]

complete lack of aoe dmg

[cursive orchid]

viable

in junkyard

[gusty mirage]

don't apologize

you're just a gamer

[balmy condor]

I mean not….really

Maybe in higher tyrannical

But junkyard has a lot of trash

And you’re getting carried by shock bots anyway

If shockbots are 30% of your damage regardless of outlaw or sin

Then it’s kinda whatever

[crisp sluice]

just came back after a 6 month break

should i even bother with sin or just go straight sub

(mainly a raider)

[balmy condor]

But junkyard has a lot of trash

[balmy condor]

they're all good

pick whatever you want to

[crisp sluice]

sin it is! hows the M+ for sin I know subpar but can you make it work?

I was the top sin rogue on my server a couple tiers ago so I'm a decent playuer

[balmy condor]

I mean that depends on your server :P

top on illidan? probably not

[crisp sluice]

dalaran xd

ahahaha

DONT TAKE MY THUNER XDDD

[balmy condor]

top on silverblossom hatecoil von doofenshits

probably fine

[crisp sluice]

Lmfao

[balmy condor]

lets just say the top 2 runs for assassination right now are a 24 and then a 20

[crisp sluice]

yikes

[balmy condor]

sub has cleared like a dozen above 25's

and outlaw is clearing 27's

[crisp sluice]

i just cant bring myself to play outlaw

[balmy condor]

this is subcreations tier list

[vast loom]

its a bit skewed atm imo lol

[crisp sluice]

this makes me depressed

[vast loom]

sub shouldnt be that far behind outlaw

[rigid tartan]

guys is "ability use below 50% hp" ring worth? it seems like the right move would be to trade it to a tank?

[balmy condor]

people probably won't play sub until double eon

most likely

[balmy condor]

it's dogshit

trading it to a tank would be a better death than it deserves

I usually decide to leave it in the box

[kindred rapids]

outlaw blasts rn

[balmy condor]

and then it goes into my mail

and then I leave it in my mail

and just wait

until it goes away

a slow painful death for that trash

[soft shale]

it used to be quite a good combo for arena with the heal one when you didnt need to stack 400% vers

to not get 1 tapped

[rigid tartan]

yeah figured, thanks!

[kindred rapids]

and more importantly I find venthyr bb a lot more satisfying to play than previous iterations of outlaw

[graceful bane]

lol

[upbeat phoenix]

So why is feral doing so well in comparison to usual but sin is drowning? Aren't they similar dmg profiles?

seems like feral is doing pretty decent overall because the lack of aoe based dungeons

But sin isn't, does feral have a lot better aoe/cleave profile actually?

[balmy condor]

I think their tier helps their aoe a lot

but idk tbh

[zinc frost]

Yeah their 4pc set is an aoe bleed when you go into beserk and 2pc reduces beserk CD with cp usage

[graceful bane]

the 4 piece puts a strong dot out when they use berserk or king of the jungle and their 2 piece allows them to get it back faster

[oak sky]

Sin and feral also arent similar damage profiles

Most of ferals damage is bite

[upbeat phoenix]

I just meant in regard to being heavily single target based with bleeds serving as their cleave/aoe dmg

[fleet anchor]

I'm not the biggest fan of Sub right now in the world but F tier seems a bit ridiculous lol

[upbeat phoenix]

well the tier list is only based on people doing keys

so its not an actual judgement of how weak or strong something is, just shows people arent using it in high keys

[fleet anchor]

I mean F tier isn't really reflected in the raider.io or WCL stats though. Has almost an identical 75th percentile score as Feral.

Assassination being F makes sense because nobody is playing it at all

[upbeat phoenix]

Might not be updated quickly. I know ret was in B tier for a bit and then dropped massively

[fleet anchor]

Ret is also below Sub in score at like every percentile

[upbeat phoenix]

oh, ret changed again

literally last night ret was in D tier

[fleet anchor]

Probably Ret/UH/Feral/Sub are somewhere in some C/D tier split zone in terms of pure data

Although Havoc is also really close in the middle there too so idk

[oak sky]

Isnt subcreations list just based on the level of keys each spec is doing or popularity

[balmy condor]

level of key

[oak sky]

Yeah

Even i went outlaw

I learned it like 4 days ago or something

[subtle tundra]

dont tempt me

[cursive orchid]

this is why, everybody is viable in junkyard

[kind talon]

?

[fleet anchor]

I mean it seems they have issues because really that chart makes no sense for either. Sub has far more runs than Assassination but about the same as Feral. It has fewer runs than Ret but generally a higher average score on WCL for keystone level for almost all percentiles. Assassination really low in every metric so I can kinda understand that but Sub makes no sense as F tier.

Can't really be parse count because Feral has fewer parses than UH. But if it's score, they should be much closer together. Sub has a higher max and average than UH/Ret and really close to Feral's average on WCL.

So not really sure what their model is based on but it seems fairly flawed lol

[subtle tundra]

maybe something weird like number of logged runs

[fleet anchor]

It seems like their sorting is based on the lb_ci which is "lb_ci stands for the lower bound of a 95% confidence interval. Please see the FAQ for more information."

Seems odd for small sample sets tbh

Sub even in their own data is showing a higher average, higher max, and higher runs than UH

But since it has a lower lb_ci it's ranked lower

Not sure why you'd take the lb_ci for sorting tbh

I'd also think x is the mean here but somehow SV has a lower bound on the confidence interval that is higher than the mean which.. uh.. seems odd. 😛

[oak sky]

Misinterpreted

[oak sky]

Yeah thats interesting i bet ur right and the model is flawed, because while sub is worse than outlaw its just better than a lot of the other specs

[fleet anchor]

They have some rationale for why they use the lb_ci but I'm not really sure it's appropriate for the dataset

Considering Sub basically beats Ret on every possible metric as an example (higher lower quartile score, higher mean score, higher max key) I think the fact that their sorting methodology results in Sub being 3 full tiers below Ret is not a fantastic result.

Feel like there are better approaches for tiering detection

Usually based on score clustering

[oak sky]

Yeah thats super weird

[fleet anchor]

Which is pretty commonly used for like fantasy football tier lists and stuff of that nature

[fleet anchor]

As a curiosity, I put them on a plot based on WCL mean and WCL max score and tossed it in a clustering formula

[oak sky]

Huh sub ended up in D

[balmy condor]

in deez nuts

[oak sky]

Rare mistweaver W

[fleet anchor]

This isn't a "stable" clustering algo so things will shift very slightly for close matches

If I run it again sometimes Feral and Sub get tossed together into C

Everything there is really close tbh

[oak sky]

F tier checks though

[fleet anchor]

Yeah sadly Assassination rep is not so hot right now

[oak sky]

Not only is it not fun in aoe

It also does Z aoe

[fleet anchor]

It's hard to argue with the data that Assassination is questionable lol

[oak sky]

Yeah like

The tier set does borderline zero aoe since its a bigger gain to do your single target rotation than to do your aoe one

[kind talon]

Um actually shiv

🤓

[cursive orchid]

0 * 1.4 = 0

2 mins at ventyr

5 targets

[kindred rapids]

Rip sin one tricks

It seems like if a spec is going to have no aoe it should have a clear advantage in ST

[vast loom]

it did last patch

but sylv daggers opop

[strange python]

do you think dragonflight assassination can do well in dungeons?

or is it still lacking?

im looking at affliction and assassination right now

[vast loom]

we have no idea

but indiscriminate carnage looks like a huge step in the right direction

[strange python]

thats on a 1.5m cooldown tho

[balmy condor]

and?

[strange python]

And it's on a 1.5m cooldown

[balmy condor]

yeah

it is

[strange python]

that is self explanatory

[vast loom]

if we are doing like 10x any other dps dmg every 1.5min we could be godly or we are just okay and do as mucha s the other meta aoe specs

[balmy condor]

is it?

people keep complaining that it's 1.5min

and I just don't understand

[strange python]

because it's not that good at 1.5 imo

what's not to understand

[balmy condor]

it's very powerful

[vast loom]

1.5 min is like every other pack no?

maybe 3rd pack

[balmy condor]

1.5min is every pack

[strange python]

not quite imo

more like every other

I'd rather the cooldown be lowered to be more frequent since it provides 0 single target benefit

[balmy condor]

you're doing 50 pulls a dungeon?

[strange python]

Look, i disagree with you. Just deal with it.

[vast loom]

[balmy condor]

I mean you're saying that it's weak

that's not something to disagree on

it's very powerful

[strange python]

I'm saying it's weak because it's an aoe button that has a low aoe radius and does 0 single target.

If it had like 20 yards i'd say yeah that's great

[fleet anchor]

Seems pretty bad

🤔

[strange python]

but 10 yards is fucky and things are gonna have to get super clumped

[balmy condor]

yeah right now it's not hitting anything

[fleet anchor]

Everyone talks about M+ like it's 30s pulls with 20 mobs. We aren't farming +2s

[strange python]

If it's 20 yards then i think I'd be okay with it

[balmy condor]

he doesn't know

I'll see you in court of stars next year koji

[vast loom]

oh no

were gonna need ro farm CoS every tier

[strange python]

also it's gonna basically compete with outlaw and sub which are probably going to do the job better

and you're giving up single target for it, which is something you should be doing better.

but not if you lose out on kingsbane.

[vast loom]

i mean you dont have to lose kingsbane

you can get both

[strange python]

i thought they changed it so you couldn't?

[vast loom]

just cant get DTB

[balmy condor]

DTB is the only standalone

[strange python]

ahhh okay

that's actually not as bad as i thought then

i wonder why DTB is the standalone

[strange python]

just because pairing it with kingsbane might be too good?

[vast loom]

cuz KB + DTB

is a forced choice

[balmy condor]

DTB is underrated aoe as well

[strange python]

why would it be forced?

if you want aoe and single target

[vast loom]

Double Lethal poison for KB

[balmy condor]

it doubles kingsbane

[chilly marsh]

they could have changed KB to only scale with DP too

[vast loom]

yeah they can, but why ruin synergy with amp poison

[strange python]

i think having a hyper focused single target build is fine

as long as IC is good

to mix single target and aoe

[vast loom]

well if you have IC, thats not a hyper focused ST build????

[strange python]

im saying the choice would be hyper focused ST, or getting AOE with good single target.

i think that's a viable option

[fleet anchor]

But yeah like Assassination may have issues in M+ potentially

[oak sky]

We have a lot of open talents for single target strength even by going carnage and all our aoe talents

[fleet anchor]

But the CD on that ability isn't gonna be the reason

[vast loom]

yeah, out aoe talents except for CT and IC are kinda meh

[strange python]

it's not so much just the CD

i think the CD is too high for 10 yards

[oak sky]

Our main issue is not having good filler for aoe imo

[strange python]

but at 20 yards i think it would be fine

[fleet anchor]

The issue with multi-DoT has always been the time getting them up

I don't think people appreciate how strong it is to instantly put full DoTs on everything

[strange python]

i thought it was also targets being spread out a bit

[oak sky]

Oh yeah koji its awesome

[vast loom]

Yeah we have too much ramp compared to say a Combust or an Infernal currently

[oak sky]

I'm really excited for m+ in dragonflight

[strange python]

infernal is a big CD though

[chilly marsh]

i just had some randon idea but what if add dies with rupture up it also reduced the cd of carnage?

[vast loom]

infernal is like what 2min cd? with wilfreds

[strange python]

3

with wilfreds?

like 2 yeah

Infernal by itself is okay, but is propped up by a talent and the set bonus

so much so that the set bonus got nerfed.

IC is nowhere near that level of infernal

it would have to start giving you free resources and consistently pulsing aoe or some manner of bullshit

[vast loom]

idk 9 shrouded garrotes and 9 ruptures in 2 gcds is gonna do a lot of dmg

[strange python]

yeah but it's kinda a one and done type thing. I'm just not convinced in its current state. There's many scenarios where shit just isn't grouped that tightly or might just fall off the radius of IC.

That's really my biggest concern.

[vast loom]

yeah the targeting has been brought up by whispyr a few times

but assuming we can get even a 5target pull with it

that is still REALLY strong

[strange python]

Yeah.

[chilly marsh]

my main problem with IC is not even the targeting its not having any way to spend all those energy cap

[strange python]

cold blood works on bleeds?

[vast loom]

yes

[strange python]

holy

[chilly marsh]

hum?

does crit apply in first dot?

[vast loom]

nvm i found the answer

[kind talon]

CARNAGE VANISH GARROTE RUPTURE AWOOO

[vast loom]

in the

[sharp falcon]

Currently CB doesn't work on dots.

[chilly marsh]

IC does 0 dmg so no crits

[vast loom]

from pins lol

[oak sky]

No you literally just carnage in stealth garrote garrote garrote rupture

[kind talon]

Carnage not taking you out of stealth is banger

[oak sky]

Yo fuck cold blood put MA in the class tree

[kind talon]

If that works

Bruh if CB doesn’t work with dots

[oak sky]

Thats my guess because its supposed to be off gcd

[strange python]

can you pick DTB and IC?

[kind talon]

💀

[balmy condor]

no

[kind talon]

Big

[vast loom]

He only said it currently doesnt work

[strange python]

so DTB is an all in?

[sharp falcon]

That said, IN THEORY, if CB were to work on Rupture, an IC --> Rupture would apply a 'crit' rupture to all targets (IC makes your Rupture hit up to 8 things, it's still 1 spell, not main target + 7 copies)

[balmy condor]

correct

[strange python]

that's shitty af

no ones going to pick it

[kind talon]

Wdym

[vast loom]

iss CB supposed to work on bleeds? or no?

[kind talon]

It’s very strong

[fleet anchor]

I mean I think people are underestimating the potential of Carnage when everything is working but we will see lol

[balmy condor]

people are underestimating a lot of things

[oak sky]

#assassination aka bad take city for the next few months

[strange python]

it doesn't look very strong

[kind talon]

Bad take city baby

[oak sky]

Scent of blood exists

[kind talon]

Yes putting up 10 empowered garrotes and 10 ruptures is not good

[oak sky]

Rupture was previously our 2nd best finisher in aoe

[fleet anchor]

I'm not totally sure if you're evaluating it accurately, honestly

[kind talon]

Empowered garrote is very high damage and it was a max of 3 per pack

[strange python]

didnt we just say IC cant be picked with DTB?

why is dekai saying that

[fleet anchor]

NS Rupture on 5-8 targets with Scent of Blood, followed by 5-8 SS Garrotes

[oak sky]

Because carnage is good

[fleet anchor]

is a lot

[kind talon]

DTB is just weapon poisons, you can still take all the improved garrote talents

[fleet anchor]

of damage

[twilit hollow]

[fleet anchor]

Like if Assassination is even remotely competitive ST damage with DoTs as a large portion of our damage, Carnage is going to be a monster ability in dungeons

[humble shell]

hi, im looking for info about full mastery assa rogue on pvp, do you guys know something? is there any message linked with some info?

[balmy condor]

#pvp

[strange python]

so the 2nd lethal poison is what

atrophic?

[vast loom]

[balmy condor]

atrophic is nonlethal

[twilit hollow]

[kind talon]

It would be amp poison

[balmy condor]

because ya know

no damage

[humble shell]

thanks and sorry for using the wrong channel

[twilit hollow]

not even reading trees, arguing tree is bad

[balmy condor]

not lethal

[strange python]

oh crap i mean the one that makes envenom better

[kind talon]

Yes

[balmy condor]

instant damage also exists

if you don't want amp

[strange python]

i dunno you're losing the ability to get both kingsbane and IC

for DTB which can't take either

[balmy condor]

sure it can

[strange python]

i mean when you pick DTB you can't pick up either KB or IC

is what im saying

[balmy condor]

correct, but dtb is that strong

[strange python]

it's entirely passive

that's typically not something blizzard does

[balmy condor]

it is

[vast loom]

on live

[strange python]

they favor active abilities over passive ones

[kind talon]

@strange python if you skip atrophic you can take 2 capstones

[vast loom]

jusst deadly poison

[oak sky]

[balmy condor]

frost set in sanctum was passive and did 20% of our damage

[kind talon]

Look at the trees in pins

[vast loom]

is like waht 20%? of our dmg

[kind talon]

Yeah like 18*

It’s our highest dps if you combine the procs and the dot

[twilit hollow]

god i loved frost set memes

[balmy condor]

edge of night is passive and wasn't it the highest source of damage on sub

[vast loom]

thats 21% big dmg

[balmy condor]

double dose was a passive azerite trait in bfa that was bis

[strange python]

well i hope DTB's isn't good

it seems like a boring playstyle

[balmy condor]

[kind talon]

It would add envenom optimizations with amp poison

[vast loom]

i wanna see a world

[strange python]

you're going to be pressing that button regardless of DTB or not

[vast loom]

where a doubled amp poison

[kind talon]

Me too

I want to see a world too

[vast loom]

is worth to CB an Envenom

for like 10000k

[kind talon]

Yes but when

If it changes priority and adds things to think about

It’s a change in play style

[vast loom]

also DTB synergizes

with dashing

[strange python]

I'd rather have a new ability to weave in that changes up how you play than have a passive ability that changes your priority a bit

[kind talon]

Conversely something like sepsis or even kingsbane could be boring if it’s a fire and forget

Point is passive things can change play style just as much as new actives

[strange python]

yeah but I think that's less interesting the way it's done, and since it's passive there's a good chance it's going to be undertuned anyway on purpose. As blizzard typically (not always) favors that sort of thing.

Just based off past behaviors

[kind talon]

That’s just not true

[strange python]

It's absolutely true with some of the classes i play.

Blizz just picks and chooses at random sometimes. Like Warlocks non-pet options are entirely nuked and made to be worse than pet options. But then you get an entirely passive option that's super strong because it ties into your pet management and changes how you play.

It's weird.

[kind talon]

Yes it entirely depends on numbers and tuning

If having two lethal poisons adds similar damage to what we predict, it is very strong

Blindside also has a chance to be very strong

There is a chance poisons or any number of things are tuned down as well

[strange python]

I'd be super disapointed in blizzard if kingsbane was the worst option there

That shit was so fun in Legion.

I had a blast.

[kind talon]

Kingsbane looks cool too

[grizzled jay]

juiced envs is the future you are slowly realizing

[vast loom]

not slowly, i mentioned deathmarked amp poison like week 1 of tree being out 🙂

its what made me want to make DTB a envenom based capstone

[grizzled jay]

theoretically it is envenom-themed because env still increases rate of poison so 2x lethal makes env better

[kind talon]

Yes

[vast loom]

true true true

[grizzled jay]

maybe amp poison instead of juicing envs

increases the "chance to apply poisons" for that env to 100%

and once you press env once, it starts chaining itself so the proc rate of DP just goes up dramatically

and it makes you want to press env as much as possible to keep high uptime on buff with amp poison procs

think thematically that fits a poison named "Amplifying" more than simply doing more finisher damage

cause then you'd have two distinct styles:

KB which is all about burst windows inside your KB
DTB/Amp which is all about high DPS through Envenom buffs

@balmy condor when Deathmark dupes DP does it also dupe the proc damage?

[balmy condor]

it should

it's literally 2 instances

[grizzled jay]

kk just checking

more i think about it, the more i like this idea a lot.

it has a nice feedback loop and also plays into Dashing more

[unborn rampart]

👋 (subc is my site) -- take F tier with a grain of salt, as the tier list only looks at the top 100 dungeon runs on r.io for each dungeon in each reason (for each affix) -- which means if no one is playing a spec in those top 100 runs... it doesn't show up at all

i want to fix this for v2 and look at the top 100 dungeon runs for a given spec

but that requires rebuilding my entire backend since subc is a site that kind of grew beyond what it was originally intended for :p

(if folks have ideas / suggestions / fixes for subc v2, please feel free to dm me with them!)

[balmy condor]

there was a bit of a convo further down on the evaluation method that might be interesting

[unborn rampart]

thanks i'll scroll around and try to find it

[balmy condor]

#assassination message

basically starts there

[unborn rampart]

Interesting, and thank you for posting it -- which clustering algo did you use?

[unborn rampart]

Yeah -- what's happening is there's a heavy penalty for the small sample size (since the site only sees 30 runs for sub at all in the top 100 of any dungeon in any region that week, so it's like i have no idea how good sub is) -- you're right that it could look at other factors (e.g. even max -- sub has max 27, ret has max 22) instead of just cluster based on lb_ci

I think the cleanest answer is just get more data so I can see the runs beyond the top 100 in each dungeon in each region for each affix

i appreciate the feedback and suggestions 🙏

[arctic cloud]

Took an 9 month break. Came back made an arms warrior. Big regret. Now I gotta climb the ilvl ladder again on my rogue 😩 least I got score this season

I’m hoping 2.1 score will be enough to allow my sin rogue to creep in unnoticed on 2s haha

[outer lodge]

Will 2x Sylv daggers also be BiS for Assa m+?

[spice spire]

Yes

[robust cloak]

is there a minmax time to shiv in m+ now

or is it just triple garrote shiv out of stealth and shiv on cd

this may be old i've just returned and haven't played tier set yet

[limber lion]

Send Shiv on CD as much as possible

Gar gar gar shiv ct is fine

[gentle gyro]

i love that fight

couldve easily been 40k+ if i didn't get chains twice

[pseudo hamlet]

298 EoN or 304 daggers with normal stats?

[sturdy merlin]

Sim it but it should be EoN by far

[gentle gyro]

EoN was on the token vendor, right?

[vestal wren]

yes eon is on the dinar vendor

[gentle gyro]

only at normal ilvl though, yikes

[vestal wren]

you can upgrade it

killing 20 heroic or mythic bosses gives you one upgrade to that difficultly

[gentle gyro]

riiiiiiiight, forgot about those

[pseudo hamlet]

Got 278ilvl daggers for now, was wondering if choosing 304 "random" dagger would be a good idea from the weekly Great Vault. It seems it is not!

[limber lion]

Why not?

It's the single biggest upgrade for you by far and replacing 304 daggers takes a long, long time.

[pseudo hamlet]

Because that would be a waste of weekly. Considering we've got finit number of choices and knowing that I'll be getting Sylvanas daggers+at least HC upgrades.

[limber lion]

How is it a waste of a weekly lol

[pseudo hamlet]

lol

[limber lion]

Do you have any other BIS choices in your vault then?

[pseudo hamlet]

Because I'd be able to replace that item with something better soon.

So I'd rather get for example 304ilvl tier set.

[limber lion]

Because you'll replace every other item as well

You'll replace that with a 311 tier

[pseudo hamlet]

I wish mate...

People in my guild have crumbled at the end of S3, there's no way I'd be able to do mythic raiding. So I am currently looking for the best items I could've got from M+(all possible levels) and just heroic raiding.

[burnt latch]

elitist cev back at it again thinking everyone raids in a top guild. some of us struggle mate.

[gentle gyro]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/1FpSef7UsQBddXjG2QyvHK
idk, memory sims so high but in every fight I've used it in it underperformed

[limber lion]

You're simming Dungeon Slice

[gentle gyro]

...sec

[limber lion]

Also there is no way Memory "underperforms", it's a button that you press and then hit a mob for 10s

There's no secret tech or anything tied to it and the sims for it seem pretty accurate since 9.0

[gentle gyro]

underperform as in it doesn't deal as much damage as i would expect or the sim tells me

[limber lion]

Link a quick sim of your profile

then link a log

let's see

There is one secret tech you can do with it, but it's only really useful if you run double on use

which is to pop it 15s pre-pull

[wooden kiln]

Didn't know it was possible to get 2 stats like this

[solar hare]

Only possible from kara keys, legion was a different time

[pulsar apex]

w

[plush delta]

is assa the only spec inthe game where our major cooldown is a debuff on a single enemy rather than a self buff ?

[balmy condor]

think so yeah

[fleet whale]

I guess there is sinful brand, but that's not really a major cd

[timid cloud]

Cev you playing right now?

Or big IRL grind again?

[fallow canopy]

If I have a lot of crit could it be worth it to get mastery for the m+ affix? or haste?

[timid cloud]

Don’t forget mastery is flat.

Not % from the buff. So you can DR it, so you might need to do yourself a simulation.

[fallow canopy]

You're right, back to the laboratory :p

[plush delta]

do you think that really holds assa back in M+ ? aside from the dots component. i.e. our major cd is useless in AOE, plus if the target dies bfore the 20s you don't get full value as opposed to something like shadow blades where you can just go onto hitting the next target

[timid cloud]

Yes.

But also, a lot of our kit is dogshit for M+ now.

It’s not as easy as GARRET 1, GARRET 2, GARRET 3, FOK FOK, CRIMSON TEMPEST ITS FUCKING GAME OVER MAN

[subtle tundra]

It wouldn't matter if we did aoe dmg

[subtle tundra]

It is as easy as that

[timid cloud]

Good times.

[subtle tundra]

But it doesn't do dmg

[timid cloud]

That new talent, Carnage? Idk if it’s enough to pull us up from the depths.

It’s quality of life changing, unless I’m wrong & someone did the big brain math already for me.

[subtle tundra]

Probably not by itself. Scent of blood will help

[timid cloud]

I hate to say it, but I think we might need Echoing Blades back to make us even have a chance in AOE.

[subtle tundra]

Like ic vanish garrote rupture mdf CT will be big dmg in packs

Probably

Once again depends on tuning

[timid cloud]

Yeah.

[subtle tundra]

But on paper sounds pog

[timid cloud]

Maybe we do big damage with the garrote build

Real crystal ball shit.

🔮

[balmy condor]

carnage is crazy

me and koji have been saying this for weeks now

but the ability to just insta get up all your dots

is huge

[timid cloud]

Does it save us?

Does it deliver us from evil?

[balmy condor]

dunno

[dusk mason]

do you guys all think that assa tree is S tier ? according too maximum it is, but i dont really see it. its good but not S tier and its sad that it would mean blizzard wont change alot anymore thinking its good

[vestal wren]

cooldown of carnage is also fairly low

[cursive summit]

It's strength will depend on tuning

[flat ocean]

I think the tree has powerful talents but it's pretty boring with pathing, you can't get some of the more interesting combos

[subtle tundra]

Why do you think blizz thinks it's good

[dusk mason]

i said maximum

he did a tier thing on stream

[vestal wren]

the reason seems mostly that assa gets raid utility and on top of that some rly strong new talents

[cursive summit]

There's a lot of fun talents in the Sin tree, with some mostly decent pathing, and builds that will work in all content

[vestal wren]

it is one thing i feel makes assassination/outlaw more appealing atm

[dusk mason]

think about it, if amplifying poison sims better then deadly poison we start with a talent we wont even use unless we use another talent too use em both

[cursive summit]

I think that's fine tbh

Could maybe have amplifying replace deadly altogether if it's an issue

[dusk mason]

really ? a dead talent ? thats stupid. why didnt they start with mutilate makes more sense

[cursive summit]

The poison makes sense if you focus more on envenom

[flat ocean]

Yeah and the fact we can't choose 2 end talents if we go dragon tempered blade?

Every other class can and it just feels bad

[cursive summit]

Sin capstones are rather powerful though

[flat ocean]

The poison makes sense but having to take it with deadly poison and never using deadly also just feels bad and isn't a thing for the other classes i know

[cursive summit]

DTB would be far too powerful alongside kingsbane

[flat ocean]

We don't know how powerful they will be on release it is all subject to balance changes

What it is though is boring compared to other classes

[cursive summit]

I disagree

[flat ocean]

You really think assa tree is more interesting than any mage tree?

[cursive summit]

Yeah I do

[flat ocean]

Interesting

Guess people like picking completely useless things for no reason

[cursive summit]

Because this way capstones can be powerful on their own and won't need help from others

[flat ocean]

I would've never seen this coming tbh

[cursive summit]

Yeah don't strawman

[flat ocean]

It's not a strawman

If you actually like that

[cursive summit]

It absolutely is

[flat ocean]

Then I'm genuinely surprised

[vast loom]

The sin tree has a lot of great talents the only real issue is the lack of choice, and a few select talents being meh. Other than that its pretty damn good

[cursive summit]

You're surprised that I like powerful options over a multitude of weaker options?

[flat ocean]

No I'm surprised you like having to take a completely dead talent if you pick Amp poison

[cursive summit]

I won't pick Amp poison lul

Because I don't want to put more power into envenom

So you're arguing against an imagined point

[flat ocean]

No I'm not

But I cbf

[vast loom]

Amp poison is a fun addition than makes me want to press enven9m

[cursive summit]

You're complaining about a "dead talent" that is subject to balancing.

[subtle tundra]

What if it's the best option for pure ST? And there will be a pure st fight? You will just not play it?

[cursive summit]

No because I play wow for fun, I'm not pushing endgame mythic raiding or high end m+, don't have the time for that any more

[vast loom]

Its fine this is just the daily DF hot takes for Sin discussion

[flat ocean]

Lol...

[cursive summit]

Even if amp poison is balanced to be top ST, why do you care if you don't use deadly?

[flat ocean]

Seriously

Cannot be bothered

[cursive summit]

If you're not playing DTB then it's essentially just replacing deadly

Can't even have a discussion nowadays without people hitching lmfao

[flat ocean]

You explain to me why it's fun to pick a useless talent then we can talk

[vast loom]

Amp poison is fun to me because I actually make gameplat decisions with it instead of just apply and forget

And it has cool interacti9n with deathmark

[balmy condor]

sin channel in flames again

[marble hemlock]

Hi

[balmy condor]

the tree just has everything anyone would want except for another envenom buff

[marble hemlock]

Someone called fire and rescue

[balmy condor]

idk how it's possible to think it's bad unless you just straight up don't play sin

and don't understand how the spec works

[bleak sky]

tree sucks

[flat ocean]

Not bad overall I did say the talents themselves are powerful

[bleak sky]

[flat ocean]

Just less interesting than it could be and the talent redundancy feels bad

[marble hemlock]

That's quite literally the only thing we can't know yet

[balmy condor]

dev is working on pathing

[marble hemlock]

As the trees are more of a thematic showcase now than a "this is what tuning is gonna be like"

[flat ocean]

Powerful in terms of interaction within the class

[marble hemlock]

Ah oke

[balmy condor]

huh?

you don't think it interacts

or you wish there was talents interacting with other talents

or what

[marble hemlock]

So it's not interesting enough and lots of redundancy but it feels powerful and with lots of synergies?

[balmy condor]

that's whats confusing me

[flat ocean]

The talents individually are good but the fact you can't choose certain things together feels bad

And DP AP overriding the other in pure ST situations doesnt feel good either

[balmy condor]

like what

[flat ocean]

If dragon blades isnt bis and AP is you take deadly for no reason

Not sure what you don't understand about that?

[balmy condor]

you take deadly because it's the first talent in the tree idk

why is poison choice a bad thing

[flat ocean]

It's not but needing to use a talent point on a skill you dont use does not feel good

You can accept it's just the way it is if you want but it still doesn't feel fun or interesting

[balmy condor]

idk it seems like a really niche thing to complain about imo

but if that's how you feel

if this one talent is good, and this other talent isn't good, and I'm envenoming the target, in that situation I will have wasted the first point in my tree that enables the rest of the tree, causing me to not have fun because 1/30 of my points are now bad

if that's the worst complaint about the talent tree you have

I'd say it's a really good tree

[flat ocean]

Yeah I think it is but it could be better right?

[balmy condor]

sure

[marble hemlock]

I mean

You'd still play dp on aoe

Without dtp

Even if ap is bis on st

[flat ocean]

It would be cool if you could do both though

I do get that having more powerful end talents can make up for that though so I can see the other side of it

[marble hemlock]

That's quite literally impossible

[flat ocean]

I'd just preffs more buttons

[marble hemlock]

You can't tune two different lethal poisons to be the same damage on st

But you can tune them so one is better on st, one on cleave and aoe, and you can freely switch even mid combat

That's interesting gameplay, no

[vast loom]

Yeah im actually curious how swapping mid combat works with deadly and amp poison

Like does it drop the dot immediately

[flat ocean]

Could be interesting

[marble hemlock]

It drops once the other poison procs the first time

That's how it worked legion and now as well

You can try it by just having a DP dot running and applying wound

Dp will keep running until wound procs the first time, then the DP debuff gets removed

[flat ocean]

And I meant it would be cool if you could do both as in taking the AOE talent and DTB

but never possible in current draft

Then you have some more funnel in aoe as assa

[balmy condor]

taking both carnage and dtb would be ridiculous

[marble hemlock]

Ye

[cursive summit]

Taking Kingsbane and DTB would also be ridiculous

[lethal folio]

just came back after a break is sub bad now? i see nothing nut outlaw out here

[merry cobalt]

Sub is great

For most content anyway

[lethal folio]

hmmm maybe ilvl is knee capping me

[vast loom]

Sub us fine outlaw is easier it currently sims higher too and it works well for any fight sub has annoying stuff on cleave fights and sin doesn't gain as much from EoN as the other specs

[fleet anchor]

I'm not sure I'd say Outlaw is easier than Sub

[vast loom]

Yeah rhat might be too bias for me

It depends if you rather react or be proactive

I'm bad at thinking ahead :)