assassination

[oak sky]

Slam the garrotes

[thin chasm]

not much room to actually use fan of knives either huh? What I've been doing, is after i open up with my garrotes, throw up slice and dice i hit it to get some quick CPs and start doing my ruptures/CTs

[oak sky]

You fan to build in aoe it should end up being most of your globals

[thin chasm]

ah ok

it's a fun spec, just takes a bit to master it seems

thanks for the info guys

trying to get ready for DF, so making myself comfortable as I don't think I can do another tier of feral/balance haha

[vast loom]

the current version of Sin is prob a good bit more punishing than usual

[limber obsidian]

Why bother with snd if everything dies so fast or in aoe. Surely envenom.buff and CT is worth more.than any snd

[thin chasm]

more poison upt times?

is my guess

[vast loom]

Auto attacks just kinda crank

[oak sky]

Heres to hoping they fix up feral and balance so the option is there for you to go back if you change your mind

[oak sky]

Because it never drops

[thin chasm]

Been a druid main since vanilla, with a brief stint as brewmaster

got really tired of getting kicked out of groups because I wasn't balance and sometimes because I wasn't feral haha

damn community perceptions!

[balmy condor]

yeah so that won't change

[thin chasm]

haha

[storm onyx]

hes not joking ><

[vast loom]

https://tenor.com/view/do-something-comeon-stickman-bored-gif-22722853

[thin chasm]

i know 😦

[balmy condor]

the #1 thing you see in this channel m+ related is "should I change to outlaw sin is weak and I get kicked out of groups"

[oak sky]

Ive never been kicked out of a group for spec

All expansion

[storm onyx]

if we get accepted, yea...

[oak sky]

Uhh

We play rogue

The m+ hero class

[vast loom]

true

[balmy condor]

you also don't play in the slums of like pugging 12's and shit though

[oak sky]

I used to

[gusty mirage]

who am I muting? You want me to mute agreon?

[oak sky]

:c

Gonna make my bot logs look bad

(They already do)

[balmy condor]

do they actually

[gusty mirage]

yes lol

[balmy condor]

the fk

[oak sky]

Uh

2 mutes

[gusty mirage]

andrew has been a bad boy

[oak sky]

From you and shiennar

Both joke

And

8 filter words

All the same word

[gusty mirage]

what word was that young andrew?

[vast loom]

whats worse all greys but CE or all Blues/purple but lno CE 🙂

[oak sky]

Starts with an r rhymes with huntard

[gusty mirage]

blues/purps no CE

[vast loom]

D:

sadge

[gusty mirage]

honestly

I'd take the blue purp no CE person myself

but most guilds want someone who "has CE experience"

whatever the fuck that means

[vast loom]

at this point id take anyone who can show up concistently for more than 2 weeks

[gusty mirage]

yuppers

[oak sky]

Not just that but high level experience or long term experience etc etc you cant win

[vast loom]

ive learned that if you raid every week for your full scheduled time

bosses die

[gusty mirage]

our recruitment officer denied someone for only having CE in sanctum

and I was like

[vast loom]

see the move is just become friends with people in good guilds

then slide in there

[gusty mirage]

I'm not very friendly

ask @oak sky I bully him all the time

[oak sky]

I know a lot of other rogues who i cant replace

[bleak sky]

@ebon notch you want sum fuk?

[gusty mirage]

they said good guilds

not ones carried by cev

smh

[thin chasm]

I haven't been kicked yet on rogue but my druid would all the damn time

[burnt latch]

The move is to convince people that youre good and fake your way through ranks

[gusty mirage]

[ebon notch]

i have like 0 experience

[vast loom]

Its okay i just made google sheets/forms and became a guild officer 🙂

[gusty mirage]

(people think I'm good, I don't think I am. Don't let cev or seli see this they'll yell at me)

[ebon notch]

and i got here

[bleak sky]

who would even invite a dps druid to keys let's be honest

[ebon notch]

i started raiding at like top 1200 cause i knew the GM

[thin chasm]

😦

[gusty mirage]

I would

[ebon notch]

and just climbed

[marble hemlock]

How about a hug?

[burnt latch]

Needing experience to get into a guild always seemed like a weird thing to me

[oak sky]

Good for you anecdotally. Because for me anecdotally i havent gotten in about 3 guilds for the exact reason that i dont have experience

[gusty mirage]

every feral druid I have ever invited to a key this expac has been a great player

[thin chasm]

I've hit 3k on both druid specs

[balmy condor]

(Or me)

[gusty mirage]

[ebon notch]

yeah but you're in college

[thin chasm]

I average 15-17k dps as feral in keys

[ebon notch]

when i was in college i couldnt move up as much as i wanted cause i wouldve failed my degree

[thin chasm]

obviously not the destro lock i ran with earlier that did fucking 30k but hey haha

[gusty mirage]

I believe it, a good feral can CRANK

[oak sky]

Well yeah i cant no life on 4 characters

[ebon notch]

i went super hard this expac

[ebon notch]

that too

[gusty mirage]

just a slept on class + no innervate makes people hesitant to take ferals

[nimble thicket]

This channel pops off in strange ways sometimes.

[thin chasm]

with Urh we almost never have to innervate haha

[gusty mirage]

idk I played with a feral in bfa, I played with ferals this expac

most die hard ferals are amazing players

[burnt latch]

I went from Normal + heroic raiding in Castle Nathria to a high end guild now, glow up is real

[thin chasm]

yeah you have to be die hard otherwise it's a meme haha

[vast loom]

Welcome to #assassination

[burnt latch]

OT2

[oak sky]

Whenever theres no hype this is ot2

Too much dragonflight stuff going on rn

[vast loom]

most of the popoff did come from legit DF feedback discussions lol

[oak sky]

Give it a few months

[gusty mirage]

no no, this is OT without hataro

[oak sky]

It would be worse without him

[burnt latch]

Ngl as a person who doesnt rly care about the DF stuff i miss my OT2 its a bit too serious here for my liking currently

[oak sky]

That said, we dont need hataro here

[gusty mirage]

but the friends in here will calm tf down if there's a serious question, isn't that right lads? @oak sky @bleak sky

[oak sky]

👍

[bleak sky]

I don't even type here anymore

[burnt latch]

Minalbafan

[oak sky]

Its definitely nice when this is a me cfs daps minalba warcieft cev varas shitposting channel

(Sorry if i forgot anyone i love you)

[burnt latch]

Agreed

@subtle tundra

[gusty mirage]

I miss waking up to pings from Warcieft asking me to ban daps

[oak sky]

Folyr

[bleak sky]

good ol times

[burnt latch]

Havent asked that in a while actually letss see if we have new powers

!ban @ebon notch

Did it work

[oak sky]

!ban @bleak sky

[gusty mirage]

yeah it made him an outlaw rogue

a fate worse than banning

[burnt latch]

!ban @limber lion

Rip

[ebon notch]

fuck he banned me

[bleak sky]

oh no I'll be banned oh no what will I possible do

[burnt latch]

Get fucked

[oak sky]

Sadge i miss dapspsassination

[burnt latch]

He is corrupted by the broad side

DUDE THATS A FUCKING BANGER JOKE

[bleak sky]

[ebon notch]

ill do full clears as assa next season dw

[oak sky]

Im gonna clear each raid on it then do reclears or whatever on sublaw

[bleak sky]

sublaw

[royal lantern]

didnt saw hataro the entire day

[chilly marsh]

i was thinking what we could do with Thistle Tea? and i came with a idea what if we replace it with a buff for SnD? maybe a 3 regen/sec while SnD is active? way better i think ? But if we can go with a less boring change.

Eye of Command: Your melee auto attacks increase your Critical Strike by 3 for 10 sec, stacking up to 10 times. This effect is reset if you auto attack a different target.

I like this trinket and I think an effect like that could really shine in rogue. Synergizes well with seal fate. thematically too, if tunned right could be a good pick for ST fights.

[vast loom]

i think Tea has use cases, just not in Raid. maybe its useful in like pvp or something

[royal lantern]

eh

seli said it once allready: dunno how people wanna fill all GCD's without thistle tea

is it good? nah

but there is atleast SOME use for it

[chilly marsh]

might work for pvp but we already have pvp talents dont know if a last talent of a tree should be something tat might be used only in pvp

[fleet whale]

I think tea could maybe do something else in addition to giving energy

like idk have it give some haste or something

[royal lantern]

monkeys paw curls

it turns your character Bri*ish

[fleet whale]

but who knows, it may end up being good in early game as it is

[copper hazel]

It's not thistle tea, it's Wo'ah

[grizzled jay]

Any talent changes

[vast loom]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[misty holly]

Thistle Tea is something I hope gets changed, either buffed somehow or just replaced.

Seems really lacking compared to echoing reprimand or shadow dance atm

[grizzled jay]

good in PvP

[grim tangle]

they should buff it so it gives 200 energy instead of 100, so it's twice as good

[vast loom]

idk how they can make ER worth it for sin

[grizzled jay]

a lot of the throughput Class tree talents are kinda meh for sin lol

[spice spire]

plays

[grizzled jay]

Deadly Precision, ER, Imp. Ambush, Tight Spender, Subterfuge.

Deeper as well

[wild beacon]

Good, does anyone actually like trying to hit ER CPs?

[vast loom]

i dont mind it

[grizzled jay]

you don't really need to 'try'

they mostly come naturally

you have so much time to hit 'em

[vast loom]

extra CP just doessnt do much for Sin

[grizzled jay]

ye it doesn't really make env that much juicier or anything

can't wait til Amp gets buffed to the moon though and ER + Amp becomes ST meta

for juiced Envs

@vast loom can't wait

[wild beacon]

Well hopefully the options are balanced then so we can all be happy 🙃

[grizzled jay]

well that upper is a bit of a meme but ye

[dense herald]

I really don’t like ER, especially on assass

Just adds more button bloat

And doesn’t feel thematic

[vast loom]

it works well with sub and outlaw

[dense herald]

And then on outlaw there’s enough abilities up every 20s let alone ER being another one to throw in

[grizzled jay]

there we go, insane-o ER DTB amp build for juiced Envs

[vast loom]

since they get a lot of bonus for the extra cp

[dense herald]

Yeah but I’d just argue there’s already that many buttons to press that are up so often that it’s not necessary

[fleet whale]

@grizzled jay apparently CTTC isn't that good of a talent atm, so I guess you could put those two points into something else

[grizzled jay]

bad as in we have enough cp and energy to keep snd?

[grizzled jay]

those 2 pts likely just go TTB and SS

or maybe doomblade sbs

[main solar]

Its 2 talent points that basically let just cast SnD 1 time instead of like 6 during an entire boss fight. Maybe if it was just 1 point, but for 2, it's pretty low value.

[fleet whale]

i do kind of wish CTTC was made baseline however, or ideally, snd just being gone in general

[main solar]

It was nice QoL when it was passive, but when its up against other talents, not so much.

I think that's most people's sentiment. SnD existed for assassination in a world where we only kept up rupture and garrote didn't exist out of a stealth opener. Now with that, and also crimson tempest in some extreme cases, it can be a bit much.

[grizzled jay]

this is true of like now where in these Ven windows we don't press Env that much but Env surely goes up in casts-per-fight in DF no?

[gusty mirage]

depends on if we play exsang or not ig

[grizzled jay]

i'm going Evoker if we play exsang

[gusty mirage]

[main solar]

lmao

[gusty mirage]

if we all just pretend exsang doesn't exist

maybe it'll go away

[grizzled jay]

RL: "hey i looked over Rogue sims and Exsang is simming the best"

Me: "no idea what that is, Sin only plays Single Target Kingsbane"

[fleet whale]

imagine if the top simming option is actually exsang and kingsbane

talk about button bloat

[main solar]

delete snapshotting

all of it

[grizzled jay]

this is the future of Sin I want

Juiced ER + Amp Envenoms

[fleet whale]

taking DTB but not the talent that gives you 30% extra poison damage?

[main solar]

Kinda wish the +Envenom damage per bleed would get added back to doomblade

[grizzled jay]

Virulent? it's just 30% to DP

Amp doesn't get that bonus afaik

[main solar]

pairs up perfectly with sbs right after that

[grizzled jay]

+env per bleed should be in the DTB line over PB imo

Amp -> that -> Dashing -> DTB all make a perfect juiced Env build

PB procs off Env but it's not... that inspiring

[fleet whale]

amp has an "instant poison" component to it too

it doesn't just buff envenom

[grizzled jay]

ye

well the 4.2% is DP right?

Instant is like 6.5%

so its DP but with the env buff over the dot

but i get what you mean about virulent. but no way to get it without saccing dance

[fleet whale]

also no seal fate and no vigor seems horrible for early game

[main solar]

if you get DTB and amp poison, I dont see how you won't also be running deadly poison

[grizzled jay]

vigor is not good

[grizzled jay]

it was about how strong or weak Virulent is

it's 30% of 4.2% so it gives you .126% AP every proc

(on both)

[main solar]

Vigor is good before we read high haste levels just to make our rotation more fluid, but might not matter with all the other energy regen sources we get in the tree

[grizzled jay]

Koji said Vigor in current iteration is a 2%~ dps talent.

that's not like super exceptional if it drops another good talent

but this could work. Dropping Dance to get Virulent -> dropping Ambush talent to grab Vigor. Dropping Blindside to get SBS for more LD.

[main solar]

Seal fate was something that felt core to how assassintion always played, but seems like we may be able to play well without it with some of our new tools.... except for aoe scenarios. We suck ass without it.

[grizzled jay]

yeah it feels miserable having SF be required for Sin AoE

what would be baller is if So Versatile linked with MfD and Imp. Ambush linked with Cold Blood

[main solar]

If I recall, Vigor wasn't the best simming choice back in SoD either, but we all went it anyways because it was more comfortable. Almost no fight is a perfect patchwerk fight.

[grizzled jay]

it really sucks that Alacrity is a 3 pt talent for us too lmao

[fleet whale]

Some people could argue that not having SF in ST could be a good thing
since it makes our CP generation more "predictable"

[main solar]

3 pt talents in general feel bad

[grizzled jay]

Outlaw likes Alacrity but isn't too hurt if they drop points and Sub doesn't care about it at all. But it's like a 15% dps talent for sin LMAO

[main solar]

you dont even need all 3 points in alacrity because its just % chance. So that 3rd point is pretty worthless and only serves as forcing you to waste a point to get to Deeper Strat

[fleet whale]

I will say that dance will bring back some pooling for assassin, which i suppose is nice

[main solar]

probably needs to lose the 10% damage amp if its going to stay in the class tree imo. Let it be utility or a way to let people play the vanish/out of stealth playstyle, but not as its own dps cooldown.

and move the damage amp portion to the sub tree as its own talent

[fleet whale]

Remember when people called BFA “Battle for Buttons” due to pruning?

Well it looks like the buttons won in DF lol

[toxic locust]

unironically i think the new trees are a great way to "solve" pruning

simply by offering passive alternatives to active talents

[pseudo hamlet]

I really hope they tune it that we won't have to choose SD and ER. I am playing Assa so I don't have to click on these abominations

[toxic locust]

what's wrong with SD

[pseudo hamlet]

I don't like short CDs, I mean a bonus ones.
If I liked SD I'd be playing sub

[oak sky]

do you like kingsbane

or shiv

[pseudo hamlet]

Yeah I like shiv. Kingsbane is a nice ability.

[oak sky]

ok

[pseudo hamlet]

But SD is just straight "+% dmg", doesn't seem that fun. And as I wrote above - it's a bonus one, we didn't have it before as assa.

[oak sky]

you also get to ambush

[thin ingot]

im wondering how much we can get from shadow dance and ambush without the energy regen talents that sub has on its tree

[balmy condor]

20% free damage for 9 seconds

[cursive summit]

Bro Kingsbane actually returned Holy fuck

Can't check the tree rn but is Kingsbane and DTB mutually exlusive or can you get both?

[obtuse robin]

cant

[cursive summit]

Probably good for balance haha

[balmy condor]

It wasn’t coming back he didn’t find a way to prevent that

[dense herald]

I like that you can’t choose both. Makes it so the abilities can feel more impactful

[balmy condor]

He actually said that

Spent like an hour in here brainstorming ways to lock kb and dtb

[cursive summit]

What was the solution?

[balmy condor]

Two point poison bomb

[dense herald]

I’m seeing so much feedback though that people are not wanting ER especially as assa (I agree)
What are your thoughts of it on the class tree whisp?

[balmy condor]

I suggested it to reduce the poison bomb rng by making it a 2 pointer

And then he did that

And also made it envenom only

And buffed it

Now a 5 point envenom with 2 point poison bomb is a 50% proc chance

[cursive summit]

How less rng is the second point?

Nice

That's some good shit

[jagged prism]

no way to get indiscriminate and DTB though

[cursive summit]

I'm really considering maining Sin come DF now

[steel ridge]

Assa is going to be lit

[balmy condor]

ER is fine on the class tree imo for sub and outlaw but it’s not competitive for them either. If it had some additional bonus that would make it give a noticeable gain for sin, I would be interested

[balmy condor]

That’s fine too

I think people really underestimate how strong double poisons are

[cursive summit]

DTB should be competitive on its own

[balmy condor]

In aoe having fok proc two poisons

[jagged prism]

Its a bit of a move away from every other spec and class tree build though where you can usually get 2 capstones if you go straight for them

[balmy condor]

Is kinda big

[steel ridge]

ER just needs massive damage again 😄 like really massive

[jagged prism]

I think it might be the ONLY capstone that locks you into just getting that capstone

[balmy condor]

I disagree

[dense herald]

Yeah that’s fair
I think it flows seemlessly into sub, but even as outlaw I feel like it’s just ANOTHER ability that’s gonna be up every 15 seconds
And yeah as assa it feels horrible. @balmy condor

[balmy condor]

ER is interesting because it adds combo point gameplay

It needs to lean into that

[obtuse robin]

give it hunter treatment combine the two nodes and put something else as a capstone

[balmy condor]

And not just ook ook button do damage

Anything can do that

[oak sky]

we already have ook ook damage button

sepsis

[steel ridge]

I asked realz if it was a possibility for ER to light up 5 instead of 3 cp

[balmy condor]

We’re already a move away from other spec and class trees because of how our movement is restricted

[cursive summit]

It's ptobsbly fine having at least 1 spec with big boi capstones that can be strong on their own

Probably

[balmy condor]

It just needs to be a compelling mini game for your cp

That’s all it needs

[jagged prism]

how big of a damage increase is DTB?

[obtuse robin]

xd

[balmy condor]

No clue don’t care

It’s alpha

Numbers don’t make any sense

[cursive summit]

Deadly and Wound poisons are the 2 youd use right?

[balmy condor]

Kingsbane currently does less than 0.5% dps

[balmy condor]

Fuck no

Instant Poison

[jagged prism]

well obviously numbers, but if youre locked into one capstone it needs to be really, really good to match what other classes are getting with 2 or more capstones

[deft vault]

amplifying no?

[jagged prism]

and if its THAT good, it doesnt become an option really, it becomes mandatory

[balmy condor]

If you take it sure

Amp poison currently sucks ass

[cursive summit]

Didn't deadly replace instant or am I in a fever dream

[balmy condor]

Not on alpha iirc

[cursive summit]

Huh

Sweet

[celest ruin]

imagine if they bought hemo back as a poison

[balmy condor]

The poison drop-down menu thing

Doesn’t have deadly in it

Just the General ones

When you talent into deadly/amp

They’re stand alone buttons

[steel ridge]

Weird

[jagged prism]

DTB also locks you out of ever taking indiscriminate, which means in an M+ aoe situation, you -never- get to play with DTB

no matter what you do

[cursive summit]

Double poisons on FoK might actually be really strong aoe

[balmy condor]

That’s simply not true

[jagged prism]

and if thats stronger than Indiscrim its the problem i mentioned where it is the -only- choice

[balmy condor]

You should be thinking about dtb as a sustained damage talent

Carnage is a burst

[jagged prism]

and if its as strong as indiscrim, you just take DTB because then your ST is way better

[balmy condor]

Yeah

That’s kinda the idea

That there’s payoffs

[jagged prism]

but thats bad design, because then you never take indiscrim

[balmy condor]

What

You just listed the pros and cons

[jagged prism]

No? I said if DTB is as good as indiscrim

[dense herald]

I really hope the kingsbane pathway ends up doing the same dam overall as DTB (or even slightly less), but significantly better in execute

[jagged prism]

in aoe

you never take indiscrim

[cursive summit]

He means if DTB and Indiscrim are similar on aoe than why ever take indiscrim

[jagged prism]

because indiscrim is 0 ST

[balmy condor]

Because dtb doesn’t do any burst

Carnage will do more aoe

It’s a 1:30 min cd

[jagged prism]

DTB is such a cool ability and idea, having it locked behind "yeah I get the cool AOE button" or "yeah i get the cool ST/poison thing" is feels bad

[balmy condor]

But if you’re in a pack for 2 min

Dtb does sustain

It’s never going to keep up on a 20-30 second pull

[dense herald]

I personally think a consistent damage profile that does more overall damage and sims better should be a thing
And then a more bursty or execute orientated damage profile could sim less, but would still absolutely have their uses in prog raiding

[balmy condor]

I love that we have the option for burst and sustain

You can take sepsis and kingsbane and exsang all at the same time

Deathmark exsang kingsbane sepsis shiv

Or you can take dtb and have big sustain and poison bombs

It’s a strong choice

[steel ridge]

its great

[cursive summit]

Does Exsang only do bleeds still? Won't work on KB right?

[balmy condor]

Correct

[obtuse robin]

i prefer the more open ended trees like outlaw and shaman but yea sin look fine and cool

[balmy condor]

Also sbs Just like, exists

That’s fucking crazy

[steel ridge]

Outlaw has options for cursed builds

[obtuse robin]

yeah

[dense herald]

Agreed whisp 👌👌

[obtuse robin]

i forgot about sbs

[balmy condor]

Sbs and sepsis are crazy strong

They’re like 10%+ talents before tuning

[cursive summit]

So hype to play with Kingsbane again, I can still do the shadow dance stealth poisons KB build now Pog

[obtuse robin]

and doomblade is like 8 %

last i remember

[steel ridge]

Sbs poison bomb is the ultimate chill build

[balmy condor]

That’s with the envenom buff, which it doesn’t do anymore

[deft vault]

does poison bomb work for LD?

[obtuse robin]

ahh

[balmy condor]

No

[dense herald]

But balancing is actually so crucial with those types of playstyles otherwise if those play styles sim the exact same, the bursty one or execute one will be picked for all form of content.
Sustained dps and high uptime should be rewarded because it’s so rare that you can pull it off in a raid setting

[balmy condor]

It might work with LD but seems questionable

We’ll have to see when LD is implemented

[obtuse robin]

i hope pb feels good to proc

[balmy condor]

Yeah okay

[deft vault]

yeah was just reading tooltip and it says nature damage over time effect. and the tooltip for PB says nature dmg over 2 sec so was wondering

[obtuse robin]

fucking red headed stepchild number 2 better feel good to press

[balmy condor]

It’s always been suspicious cause it’s not a debuff

[cursive summit]

Did Realz ever decide how to make poison bomb less terrible to use in m+ with skittish tanks?

[deft vault]

we'll see when we get beta

[cursive summit]

Or is it staying the same as live

[balmy condor]

Right now no word on pb changes

[cursive summit]

Faif

[obtuse robin]

he did say one thing

[cursive summit]

Fair*

[obtuse robin]

any redesign on pb is not 10.0

[balmy condor]

Yeah

He did say that

[obtuse robin]

tune it and make the pool bigger and done

[oak sky]

sounds so fun!

[balmy condor]

Yeah there’s some copium for that

[oak sky]

all my damage is pb!

[obtuse robin]

make it one point 50 % proc and 2nd point larger raduis

[deft vault]

tbh id just make it so its a debuff on the target and it does dmg around the target

[balmy condor]

Dunno bout that one

[deft vault]

instead of a ground effect

[balmy condor]

Hiding quality of life behind a second point

Doesn’t seem good

[oak sky]

2nd point in every single case scales the ability

in some way

[balmy condor]

Just make it bigger with the same point stuff as now

And it’s fine

Pb is still fine most of the time now

It’s just a pain in m+

[oak sky]

monk tank on a high movement boss

😈

[obtuse robin]

pb on jailer

[balmy condor]

Most of my article just complains about the rigidity more than any particular talent I think

[oak sky]

i almost feel like we couldve had an aoe section with some of our fok talents and ct in there like some other classes have but honestly our tree is just gonna work

[balmy condor]

I’ve written so much in the last 4 days I don’t really remember exactly

[obtuse robin]

finding it hard to find stuff to complain about are we

[oak sky]

exsang still exists

i guess we have a lot of 3 pointers that could be a complaint

[obtuse robin]

whyspyr has already died o that hill

[balmy condor]

I mean I also can’t nitpick every single little thing

My articles are already all too long

I get told to cut it down basically every time

[oak sky]

actually definitely the most fair complaint is that we have a lot of 3 point nodes compared to other classes

[obtuse robin]

lmao

[oak sky]

but thats mostly to limit our capstones out and i doubt we have 3 talent nodes lying around that could get thrown in each path

[steel ridge]

Honestly our trees are very very good rn, all 3 of them

You can dislike some things subjectivly but overall its just bliss

[oak sky]

its not about just being very very good, its about getting the best possible trees since for the most part its our class for 2 years

[obtuse robin]

the only real complaints i have are exsang and i wish the tree wasnt so linear

[oak sky]

so we have to give all the feedback we can, because even if we don't get the exact changes we can spark ideas and get small improvements

[steel ridge]

How would you change exsang?

Rn i wouldn’t talent into it at all

[obtuse robin]

delete it

[oak sky]

hmm

i might make it a spender

[steel ridge]

ok thats dumb

a spender sounds interesting

What would it do?

[obtuse robin]

it would have to be another talent

thery not redesghing anything

for 10.0

[oak sky]

maybe it instantly makes half the duration of your bleeds go away

or like

[steel ridge]

are they not?

[oak sky]

10% per cp

[oak sky]

it doesnt matter because this is bongcloud ideas anyway

this is never getting implemented

[steel ridge]

Thats interesting but not much different in essence

[oak sky]

its an actual proper burst ability

since it would just instantly pop the bleeds

[steel ridge]

Op for PvP

[oak sky]

maybe it amps them too

[oak sky]

good thing i dont care about pvp

[steel ridge]

Yeah but realz does

[oak sky]

and this is never getting implemented

[cursive summit]

I'd just make it double tick rate for the duration of Exsang and leave the duration of the bleed alone

[oak sky]

i would remove it personally

[steel ridge]

Thats deathmark

You guys are going nowhere with this

[oak sky]

a niche for exsang doesnt exist

its only good when borrowed power says its good

[steel ridge]

The niche is enhance deathmark to blast in small windows

10 second amps

[oak sky]

its funny because i wouldnt be shocked if taking another talent would make you do more damage than taking exsang

in that burst window

[steel ridge]

Double dmg phases

[oak sky]

theres so many options that sound better than exsang in that scenario

sepsis

[steel ridge]

Tell me one?

[oak sky]

sepsis

better point

infinitely

[steel ridge]

Picked anyway

you asked what the niche was

[oak sky]

it would have to be a burst phase thats shorter than the duration of our bleeds

[steel ridge]

They exist

Enter sludgefist

[oak sky]

and yet....

[steel ridge]

dont

if you need to compress your 25 second bleeds into a 10 second burstwindow, you get exsang, if you dont you dont

why would you delete it if its not mandatory

Lihuvim schematics for example

Just delete adds

idk

Usecases can be made

better have it than not i guess

[oak sky]

I only really see it with forcing your bleeds into dance like was talked about recently

[steel ridge]

see

There will be blood

[oak sky]

i mean

thats just one of those number good cases

[steel ridge]

Exsang has no number

[oak sky]

i meant number good as in

sim decides

[steel ridge]

sure

i am glad its on the side

Optional

and thats about it

[oak sky]

i dont really care that its there

but i also dont think the tree would be worse without it

[steel ridge]

@balmy condor coming back to ER and leaning into the minigame. the 2 follow up points could be 3 more animacharged points and a 5 second cd reduction of ER for hitting each point.

[balmy condor]

I mean I guess

but that doesn't change the fundamental issue that ER doesn't do anything for sin

that just makes it so it does nothing, more often

[subtle tundra]

outlaw and sub have cdr attached to cp usable, assa has dreams

or atleast i do

[brave gyro]

Has anyone tested on the alpha roughly what % CT would be on ST?

(even tho a lot of abilities are NYI)

[limber lion]

Why does that matter exactly?

Why would you ever test that?

[brave gyro]

to start speculating if CT would be worth picking for ST?

[limber lion]

It's not as simple as looking at a % in a log.

[brave gyro]

ofc, but its a start

[balmy condor]

pre-tuning wondering if it could be worth

[limber lion]

Pretty much pointless at this point

[balmy condor]

[brave gyro]

why would testing things be such an outrageous thing? Even if its not as relevant

you reacted like someone is testing it on you or sth

[marble hemlock]

Because it would give you wrong results.

[balmy condor]

because there's testing for results

and testing for numbers

[limber lion]

Because the expansion is releasing in 5 months and there's HEAPS of tuning that's going to happen in those 5 months.

[marble hemlock]

Would you want someone to take a pregnancy or covid test, knowing they get misleading results?

[balmy condor]

and testing for numbers is dumb as fuck in a beta with stuff not implemented

[limber lion]

Looking at any numbers currently is just outright pointless and a waste of time.

[balmy condor]

sorry

ALPHA

with stuff no implemented

[limber lion]

Kingsbane doing less damage than your off-hand melee is already saying something about tuning

[balmy condor]

you test for implementations, interactions, and bugs

[gleaming fable]

sounds like we need to nerf those damn offhands

[balmy condor]

tuning is the last thing that happens in a patch cycle

[marble hemlock]

Basically, no one said that testing itself is dumb. It's just that right now its a waste of time and will only lead to misleading results.

[balmy condor]

also that specifically is just a raw sim question

[marble hemlock]

Psure both Whispyr and Cev spent more time testing and looking at logs and dissecting sims and their own gameplay, than most people here. Just not right now 😄

[balmy condor]

it's nearly impossible to try and find out by hand

would be insane

[brave gyro]

main or off-hand?

[balmy condor]

both

like testing if sylv dagger worked with ER combo points

required hours of testing from multiple people

and that's just "does it work"

trying to figure out if a single ability on a completely new talent tree is worth taking versus other things, when things aren't implemented, and untuned

just asinine

would need to do like 2 hours of logs just to get a baseline

and then 2 hours for each alternative option

of which there are probably dozens

then there's the factor that CT takes away from envenoms

so you have to also take all of the envenom buff stuff into consideration

you're basically suggesting an undertaking of dozens of hours of work

for something that could get hotfix changed halfway through testing

[marble hemlock]

i recommend playing this while reading whispyrs monologue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpJEg6MTPzc

[balmy condor]

fuck you I'm passionate about this shit

[brave gyro]

Nah I appreciate it

I am reading it

[marble hemlock]

[balmy condor]

I have people dm'ing me constantly like

IS DRAGON TEMPERED WORTH TAKING

IS KINGSBANE GOOD

IS SBS GOOD

SEPSIS SUCKS BUT COULD YOU TAKE IT

WHAT ABOUT KINGSBANE AND SEPSIS TOGETHER

and I'm like yo shut the fuck up

ask me again in 5 months

[brave gyro]

exsang in pvp with deathmark wen?

[balmy condor]

when seli eats my ass

[brave gyro]

I have people DM'ing me

[balmy condor]

the closest thing I have to that is oxi telling me to lick his balls

[marble hemlock]

its too good to not do it so im sorry whispyr

http://puu.sh/JdRNx/644b2c7e72.png

[balmy condor]

bro huge

[marble hemlock]

i mean

it says edited so

gotta bring more spice and not hit me with that weak sauce

[brave gyro]

https://tenor.com/view/what-the-fuck-did-i-just-start-frozone-wtf-was-that-what-have-i-done-what-did-i-do-gif-23330020

[balmy condor]

better?

[brave gyro]

you should edit the too

[brave gyro]

i let it play the whole thing

[balmy condor]

@marble hemlock

[marble hemlock]

[balmy condor]

see look, it's not even paint

it's right there

in clear sight

out in the open for everyone

anyways, what's were we talking about

delete exsang, rework ER, give more connectors to help with rigidity in the tree

tuning hasn't happened

stop asking me if things are good

uhhhhhhhh

that's about it

[marble hemlock]

i dont see my discord in your sidebar

[limber lion]

I like how horny jail is higher than Ravenholdt on that list

[marble hemlock]

dudes on vacation

probably pulled it up

[balmy condor]

new servers just float to the top

idk

need to reorganize everythinig

but 180 servers

[limber lion]

I have like 4 servers that I use and 100 servers for emotes

[balmy condor]

yeah that's basically me

except the servers I use it closer to like

15

[subtle tundra]

can i also?

[balmy condor]

of course

all you can eat buffet

[subtle tundra]

great!

in 5 months ill be there

[balmy condor]

you're like 3 hours away right now

[subtle tundra]

🥺

[subtle tundra]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[primal zinc]

hello master bleeders!!!! how are all of you?

[balmy condor]

pretty gud

how bout you

[primal zinc]

retured to game again

for season 4

[balmy condor]

nice

[primal zinc]

missed some

and all i see now is that rogues play with bleeds snapshot parture CT and garr

rapture*

[balmy condor]

yep

that's the tier set

[primal zinc]

and 2 UNIQUES?

😮

[balmy condor]

yep

[primal zinc]

let me guess

[balmy condor]

follows the same model as legion did

[primal zinc]

flag and vendetta?

[balmy condor]

unity is required to equip two

you can't equip just any two

so flag is required

[primal zinc]

(flag i mean for venthyr cov)

[balmy condor]

and then vendetta is the synergy with the tier set, yes

[primal zinc]

NICE

um where can i see the tier set bonus? 😛 kinda forget

[balmy condor]

the faq

[marsh cedar]

hey whispyr how u doing mate

[balmy condor]

doing pretty good thanks for asking

how are you

[marsh cedar]

im fine ty i have question

do we get shadowdance on rouge tree in dragonflight

[primal zinc]

2 set: Shiv's debuff causes your bleeds and poisons against all targets within 15 yards to gain 40% damage for 9 seconds.
4 set: Vendetta causes Poisons and Bleeds on your target to expire 100% faster.

that one?

[balmy condor]

yes

[balmy condor]

yes

[primal zinc]

BROKEN!!!

[balmy condor]

it's okay

[marsh cedar]

and how we gonna keep the find weakness buff all the time ?

[balmy condor]

with ambush at the start of dance

[marsh cedar]

for assa i mean

[balmy condor]

but find weakness isn't important on assa

so it's not really a concern

well it's not THAT important

[marsh cedar]

do we skip vigor ?

[balmy condor]

who knows

[marsh cedar]

i hope they change vigor i dont like it there 😄

its hard to get it

[balmy condor]

vigor isn't that great of a talent honestly

most of the early tree ideas just skip it entirely

[marsh cedar]

yeah but it feel better to play with vigor i dont know

[primal zinc]

still 10% is huge benefactor

[steel ridge]

Just an idea, i mean you said its not even competitive for outlaw and sub, so that would double down on the minigame

[balmy condor]

10% what

[primal zinc]

energy reg and 50 energy

[balmy condor]

yeah I mean it has to have an extra benefit

[royal lantern]

the 10% is not really big lol

[balmy condor]

it's 15% in dragonflight, and it only applies to baseline energy regen

the 10 a second

so it's 1.5 energy a second

[steel ridge]

Yeah i am with you there, it needs more than 3 charges for 3 points

[primal zinc]

well if you combine it with flag and thrill seeker (talking about venthyrs cov) isnt that great over mfd?

[balmy condor]

needs to also be like idk, empowered combo points also cast envenom/eviscerate/dispatch when used

or some shit

[steel ridge]

Wow

thats another route it could go

Echo the finisher

[balmy condor]

the combo point itself needs more value

idk how to do that

[steel ridge]

Since its called echoing

[royal lantern]

couple of seconds more on rupture is INSANE value

[balmy condor]

no, it's actually the worst talent in that row

baseline energy regen is low, and buffing it sucks too

mfd gives you flag stacks instantly

which is why it's good

only viable talent atm

[primal zinc]

oh yes now that i think about it

you also get the flag leggo

and the lashing scars to gain more value on the buff gen over flag duration

another question tho

does infernal bleeding works too?

i mean on the mastery...bla bla bla

[balmy condor]

yes

[primal zinc]

ssin for life

[balmy condor]

internal bleeding doesn't work on bosses obviously though

which is why most people don't take it

usually want prey on the weak instead

[primal zinc]

well ye i mean about mythic+ mini bosses or adds on bosses

[balmy condor]

yeah typically prey on the weak for those

[primal zinc]

ye ty

anyway

going to do somequesting

cya all later

@balmy condor ❤️

[balmy condor]

have fun!

[marsh cedar]

ah they changed deeper and mfd 1 min cd sucks

[balmy condor]

still 30sec for sin

[marsh cedar]

oh really

so its tooltip bug i guess on wow head

do we need to get 2 point for cut the chase ?

[balmy condor]

yeh it just shows the baseline

[marsh cedar]

or 1 point is enough

[balmy condor]

2 points to sustain

but atm the thinking is we don't take it

[marsh cedar]

yeah thats also good idea we can get 1 point for damage

[balmy condor]

you just take elaborate instead

[marsh cedar]

maybe blindside if they buffed or twist maybe to keep envenoum buff aswell

[balmy condor]

blindside is looking pretty good

twist felt good atm but I don't think it can compete with amp poison once it gets buffed

maybe you'll take twist for the uptime idk

but it didn't seem that impressive on alpha so far

all comes down to tuning

the uptime gain isn't that insane

[marsh cedar]

yeah

maybe

[balmy condor]

already get a decently high uptime with out

and with, you're overcapping

you have to actually slow down and wait for the buff sometimes

really weird

[marsh cedar]

hmmmm

how was the energy on assa

hero doing something all the time or we have down time with out vigor ?

[balmy condor]

you have downtime regardless of what you take

that's the spec

it's a slow spec

[marsh cedar]

how about cold blood if we use it or envenom or garrot does garrot doing crit all the time with cold blood or not ?

[balmy condor]

not sure

[marsh cedar]

if we use cold blood at start then master assassin become useless right ?

[balmy condor]

not sure

but probably not

cold blood is 1 ability

you would just cold blood till after the ma window if anything

[vestal wren]

you can also plan around it, so you don't need to stack the cooldowns

[marsh cedar]

yeah kinda thats better

[balmy condor]

you probably will stack though

with dance being a damage multiplier

[marsh cedar]

thats also true

[vestal wren]

i still hope cb/mfd switch place with vigor/ds

because i like both more as a opt in

[marsh cedar]

agree vigor its not that important but feels better to play

[balmy condor]

question is whether anyone would ever take cb then

[marsh cedar]

i mean in logs deeper was better in sims but every 1 getting vigor because of the game play

[balmy condor]

when?

[vestal wren]

deeper in general becomes weaker in df

[marsh cedar]

not now

[vestal wren]

because it loses the baseline "finisher" damage amp

[marsh cedar]

in castle nathria

[balmy condor]

people played bs/deeper in nathria too towards the end when it was better

[marsh cedar]

im not sure was it castle nathria or sanctum

or i think it was castle nathria but only on sludgefist

dont remember

[balmy condor]

people definitely played bs/deeper on guardian in sanctum

[marsh cedar]

yeah i played bs/dp on guardian aswell

kingsbane doing good damage ?

[balmy condor]

not right now

offhand auto attacks are doing more damage than kingsbane ticks

[marsh cedar]

jesus

in legion it was bad aswell

[balmy condor]

what

in legion it was huge

[marsh cedar]

in details u didnt see it at good spot i think it was in down meterdamage

it was like 1% damage or 2%

its the same right ?

i dont remember it well

or they change it in dragonflight im not sure

[balmy condor]

it's less than 0.5% on alpha right now

[steel ridge]

What did pay for alpha whisp?

[balmy condor]

what?

[steel ridge]

Meaning did you do something or just lucky?

[vestal wren]

wowhead gives their writers the oppotunity to get into alpha 😉

[steel ridge]

Sweet

[vestal wren]

alpha atm is sadly still very unfinished, so will take a bit to get propper testing

almost all new abilities are not working

[steel ridge]

Figured it must have something to do with that, since guy is in aswell

[vestal wren]

yes, me / guy / whispyr

[steel ridge]

You lot are the perfect choice anyway

[vestal wren]

Dk got in too, not sure if lucky or if there was any other reason/contact that helped

also 1-2 others in here did talk about having alpha access too

i am not 100% sure how people are selected

[steel ridge]

Maybe playtime?

[balmy condor]

randomly

you either need connections or it's random

[vestal wren]

^ one of my guild members also got alpha, and we didn't even clear mythic

he has no connections to blizz

[steel ridge]

👀

[marsh cedar]

btw deeper for outlaw is the same as assa not 5% increase damage or its the same deeper ?

[steel ridge]

Huh?

[balmy condor]

deeper in dragonflight does not have the 5% buff

[vestal wren]

deeper stratagem changes in DF to only offer +1 cp

so no more 5% finisher damage buff baseline

[steel ridge]

Uff really?

[marsh cedar]

thats not cool

[vestal wren]

this takes away quite a bit of its power

[marsh cedar]

yeah

[steel ridge]

Thats a bummer

[vestal wren]

its still nice to avoid cp overflow

[steel ridge]

So 7cp is not required

[vestal wren]

also i think it means vigor/deeper can be switched with mfd/cb due to that

[steel ridge]

thats a good idea

[vestal wren]

what is required is up in the air

there are multiple builds you can play, and once we try to optimize them

[steel ridge]

Yeah but with 10% it kinda would be

[vestal wren]

we will find out what is practical and what would lead to problems

[steel ridge]

Without the 2x5% finisher damage i can live with just 5cp 🙂

probably, but yeah tuning

and cp economy

[vestal wren]

it mostly comes down to cp and energy economy

[balmy condor]

probably not important on sin

we always took deeper for the 5% mostly, we're energy locked anyway

[vestal wren]

subtlety with additional cp income from the +1cp ambush node could end up requireing some deeper nodes

[steel ridge]

Yeah for sin i wouldn’t plan deeper anyway

[marsh cedar]

i didnt understand this well it mean if we fucked up our pistol shot get stack ? or its just when u ss additional time it get stack ?

[balmy condor]

when you get the proc, it gives you 1 additional, stacking 6 times

[vestal wren]

thats outlaw 😛

[marsh cedar]

cool

sorry 😄

[vestal wren]

tbh outlaw has also some nice new nodes

[steel ridge]

Outlaw tree is wild

Not as linear as sin

[marsh cedar]

outlaw with shadowdance is huge

[vestal wren]

it isn't getting cdr anymore, so not that wild

[marsh cedar]

u get 6 buff most of the time if u use it with dreadblades

then keep roll here we go bang bang

[vestal wren]

db is also getting cdr now iirc

what makes it a bit wild

[marsh cedar]

yeah

[dawn merlin]

Yea, will probably line up better with sd because of it

[mystic gate]

waiiiitttt whaaaaat

[balmy condor]

of course outlaw wouldn't CDR on dance

that would be insane

[vestal wren]

only subtlety enjoys cdr on shadow dance

[balmy condor]

anyone who thought outlaw would keep dance CDR was overdosing on copium

[mystic gate]

[vestal wren]

i thought of it as working well with the flow

but also the high dance cdr was just to opressive

but its still a rly nice cooldown for outlaw

[marsh cedar]

it was great chat with u guys ty @balmy condor @vestal wren cya later

[steel ridge]

Yea should line up pretty well with AR and dreadblades

Or sepsis/coldblood

so many potentially good things

[feral lantern]

any good s4 theory crafting out?

was thinking stack crit, choose crit buff -> all teh combo points 🌶️

[vestal wren]

too early

current df tc is mostly smaller calculations, full flagged simulations are still a bit off

keep in mind that most of the things don't even work on alpha right now

so to even start testing/implementing they would need to work on alpha

[pure moth]

Check pin. Theres a post for season 4

[limber lion]

Nothing changes rotationally or buildwise for season 4, except gear.

Still play the same talents, Venthyr, snapshots, overhangs etc.

[vale marten]

does deathmark increase damage % like vendetta? or is it just another bleed plus dupicate of garrote and rupture?

[limber lion]

It does not

[vale marten]

unfort

[limber lion]

Not really

It's still potentially much more powerful than Vendetta

[feral lantern]

venthyr for m+ to nuke down the dreadlords?

[vale marten]

wont we just overcap energy with so many bleeds? also this is a niche scenario but against palas and dwarfs its completely useless now

in pvp i mean

[gusty mirage]

You mean like currently where paladins hard counter our bleeds and vendetta in pvp?

Idk why and is in all caps, but ty phone

[vale marten]

yeh shouldnt mentioned palas, its tthe same but dwarfves dont remove vendetta

[burnt latch]

pls stop posting in caps its not needed

[gusty mirage]

Too late already edited

[burnt latch]

edit this

[gusty mirage]

Yeh, not sure how they plan on dealing with that but craven’s been fucking us all expac and we’ve been relatively okay

[vale marten]

thank fuck kyrian pot is gone

atleast

[gusty mirage]

Do hunters get craven in their tree? I never checked

[vale marten]

dont think so, but who knows what pvpš talents ther ewill be

[gusty mirage]

Because that legendary can die in a fire

Whoever designed that leggo is an asshole

[vale marten]

preach

[burnt latch]

dont think he has power at blizzard, recommendations at best

but dont remember him having any discussions about legendary powers

[balmy condor]

preach didn't design shit

[nova flax]

Preach barely got alpha access

[misty holly]

Twist seems like it would be better for a Dragon Tempered Blade build, where you're buffing both damage poison procs.

[balmy condor]

yah but the uptime is already pretty high

and when amp gets buffed

probably a lot stronger

maybe you take both

idk

all tuning

[royal lantern]

end of an era something something

[viscid spear]

Never cared for Preach
I don't want an overweight bald manchild speaking for me

[balmy condor]

you prefer half-bald like bellular then?

now that I think about it

jpc is bald

infexious is bald

why are so many content creators bald

[vestal wren]

whispyr found out the secret of success

[balmy condor]

I think I need to shave my head

@echo geyser need to check your hairline mate

zeratule the only rogue content creator with hair

[viscid spear]

Shave on stream

[balmy condor]

I did that for painsmith

shaved my beard off

[leaden hornet]

Sample Opener for Assassination in Mythic+
This is what your regular opener on any mid to large-sized pack should look like:

Make sure you have 2 or more excess Combo Points from the previous pack.
Use Garrote Icon Garrote on 3 different targets, ideally the ones with the highest health.

From the icyciens guide

Garrote has 6 sec cd tho

[balmy condor]

subterfuge

[viscid spear]

Brazilian

[limber lion]

Not with subterfuge my guy

[balmy condor]

wait you said icyveins?

[leaden hornet]

Ahh

[balmy condor]

yeah idk seli is cooked I guess

[leaden hornet]

Gotcha

[limber lion]

he said icyciens

but go on

[balmy condor]

bad guide

[limber lion]

[leaden hornet]

Anyone have good guide

[sand sigil]

https://tenor.com/view/confused-wth-wtf-really-meme-gif-17151805

[balmy condor]

nah nah it's a joke

seli guide good

[limber lion]

Wowhead and Icyveins are both good.

lol

[leaden hornet]

Hmm k

[viscid spear]

Wowhead, Whispyr writes that

[limber lion]

might want to read what the talents do

[balmy condor]

you're essentially bald my guy

if I can't see it, it doesn't exist

[viscid spear]

We're all bald compared to our primate brethren.

[balmy condor]

[sand sigil]

[balmy condor]

[subtle tundra]

dont make me become a content creator whisp

[sand sigil]

at least my dps isn't bald then CUZ I KNOW U SEE THAT

[balmy condor]

OUCH

if we measure dps

[viscid spear]

Bro not only does your pfp contain zero hair, you posted an emote of a guy notorious for being bald

[balmy condor]

then I'm giga bald

they don't call you JBC for nothing

(the b is for bald)

[vestal wren]

the new race fits well to james pfp

you got so much options to add fins to dracthyr

[balmy condor]

now that I think about it

what if taurens had a glossy oiled chest like orcs do

[limber lion]

what exactly made you think about that?

[nova flax]

Shaving ur head voluntarily doesnt make u bald king these guys dunno what theyre saying

Unless of course. You dont shave voluntarily

[sand sigil]

amen

[balmy condor]

I am a man with questions