assassination

[grizzled jay]

SBS better anyways cause of LD

[ember remnant]

^is what im thinking

[vast loom]

If sepsis gives improved

it should give shrouded

they have same wording on their condition

[gusty mirage]

they'd have to figure out how to actually do that

given that it didn't proc subterfuge

I'm doubtful it'll be any dif in DF

[whole mason]

oxi, any thing about subt and ss?

[vast loom]

i can see that just seems like a synergy that should intuitvly work

[gusty mirage]

sepsis is a mess since they changed it from giving stealth to "allowing a stealth ability"

so honestly I have no clue

there's a very good chance they can fix it

[vast loom]

i mean

[slow marsh]

but do they want to

[gusty mirage]

but also a chance that it's shit

[vast loom]

what if it just gave staelth again?

[marble hemlock]

well

[vast loom]

why did they need to change it

[slow marsh]

cuz it was broken

[marble hemlock]

meld did work with shrouded in bfa, but not with subterfuge.

so

[gusty mirage]

it was making open world stuff a nightmare

[ember remnant]

wasnt it breaking solo content making everything reset?

[marble hemlock]

theres definitely ways to make it work

[vast loom]

oh lol

[grizzled jay]

when it gave the free vanish yes but they actually somewhat fixed it

[gusty mirage]

yeah that's fair

[vast loom]

like they litterally develop the game

[gusty mirage]

[marble hemlock]

not really, it was always shit

[vast loom]

so they should make it work 🙂

[gusty mirage]

spaghett code

[grizzled jay]

what they did in SL alpha is increased the time mobs take to reset by another like 0.5s so as long as you did damage in like 1s after the Sepsis vanish happened they didn't reset but like that still isn't a real fix.

[marble hemlock]

if something doesnt work atleast 9/10 times, its not consistent enough to be considered "working as intended"

[whole mason]

So good chance Subt give SS in DF?

[grizzled jay]

so pretty sure they reverted that change

and reworked Sepsis

[marble hemlock]

Your guess is as good as mine.

There's always 2 parts of this equation:

1. Intent, which is something only a dev can answer
2. Tuning, which might be more important than 1) and the reason for something to work in an unexpected/inconsistent way.

[vast loom]

the more i think about Deathmark the more i just need to know how it actually works on the alpha lol

[whole mason]

Anyway, Subt's position in the tree is not friendly and I think for a good chance not worth it.

however, maybe for m+

[marble hemlock]

Subterfuge is a utility talent now

Not a DPS one

[whole mason]

I know. but giving SS, utility for cp is dps for us.

[marble hemlock]

They specifically unlinked the damage and utility parts of Subterfuge, put them each into their own talent, and put the utility part to the side so you're not "forced"to pick it either.

[gusty mirage]

also improved garrote gives a subterfuge effect

so maybe it'll work with sepsis?

[whole mason]

not SS though.

[gusty mirage]

[bleak sky]

oh damn why didn't they think of that before?

just write code

xdd

it's magic

xdd

[marble hemlock]

It is not, because the benefit it provides is also provided by another talent.

[bleak sky]

[whole mason]

if improved gar gives SS as well, then we're no longer on the topic of Subt, right?

[gusty mirage]

improved garrote gives us what subterfuge did + a 50%(!?) increase to garrote damooj

SS if further down the tree

[whole mason]

I mean, giving SS required condition of stealth

[marble hemlock]

You cannot talk about the dps value of Subterfuge in a vacuum, when other talents exist that fill the same purpose, are mandatory, and are triggered in the exact same way.

[vast loom]

cuz if Deathmark only duplicates on reapplication with no overhang it might be very weird when it only duplicates 13-14sec of kingsblade and even less of rupture.garrote after that, so either it needs to duplicate all the current dots on cast or allow overhang

thats if it even duplicates KB

[marble hemlock]

Subterfuge for DPS is only a consideration for Sub/Outlaw, and for Assa it would only be a consideration if the extended stealth-ability casting would stack with imp garrote, which it doesnt.

[ember remnant]

6 sec of improved garrote, imagine lol

[marble hemlock]

Deathmark will most likely just be adjusted to say "lethal weapon poisons" and be done with it.

[whole mason]

...we're talking about if Subt gives stealth condition for SS after existing stealth

[gusty mirage]

it did

[whole mason]

improved gar never talked about stealth

[vast loom]

yeah but it would be so cool if we got duped KB's

[grizzled jay]

ngl forgot imp. garrote had the subt-like wording on it.

[marble hemlock]

That's how it currently works. I'm not sure where the confusion is.

[whole mason]

Since @grizzled jay is trying to rationalise subt's cp gain from SS over other talents.

[marble hemlock]

There's no point in doing so, since Subterfuge and imp garrote have the same effect, and imp garrote is a mandatory pick.

[grizzled jay]

well i was more talking about the opener lol. if imp. garrote does the same thing, my opener idea is still about the same.

[bleak sky]

are you sure about that

[whole mason]

gar's cd is irrelevant here.

[marble hemlock]

Who is talking about the CD?

[gusty mirage]

a bit off topic, but if you hold shift while hovering over the talent tree on wowhead you get this:

kinda neat

[vast loom]

the new wording on subt seems to imply only giving us access to stuff like cheap shot and ambush

[gusty mirage]

[bleak sky]

50% more damage when used from stealth

?

[whole mason]

@bleak sky was talking about stealth related effect which is cd

[marble hemlock]

Refer back to my point about them unlinking the utility and damage portions from Subterfuge and making them unique to each talent.

[brazen zodiac]

well thank u lmfao

[bleak sky]

No one is talking about cooldown

I'm talking about the damage

?

[brazen zodiac]

spendin 5 minutes looking for carnage from the pins lmfaoo

[whole mason]

and no one is talking about damage here

[vast loom]

i thought the wording has changed in DF but it actualyl has not strike my last statement from the record

[whole mason]

we were talking about cp

[marble hemlock]

I really hope that more mages check their trees, get disappointed, and come to other class discords, because we desperately need an int-buff in here.

[gusty mirage]

I have no idea if that's supposed to be a feature or not

[brazen zodiac]

it should be lol

[marble hemlock]

Again, what about it?

[whole mason]

If Subt gives SS bonus

[grizzled jay]

seli you kinda came into a conversation already done worked up from a conversation in general lol

[marble hemlock]

Yes.

[brazen zodiac]

notice some of the highlighted boxes are yellow/vs white? is there a reason for that or xd

[marble hemlock]

That's how it worked in BfA.

[whole mason]

Please ask @grizzled jay for details, his idea anyway...

[brazen zodiac]

nvm oxi im dumb

[marble hemlock]

I'm not worked up, I'm wondering why there is any confusion about this when it worked like this in BfA.

[grizzled jay]

lament just the kinda person that needs every interaction re-confirmed just in case

[whole mason]

why we're judging people now

[grizzled jay]

🧑‍⚖️

[marble hemlock]

Shadowmeld and Sepsis do NOT provide Subterfuge bonuses, currently. Shadowmeld did however proc the damage bonus from SS in BfA, but not the CP one.

[vast loom]

was either part of the meld interaction acknowldeged as a bug or not?

[whole mason]

Please retract or edit it.

[marble hemlock]

Nothing was ever acknowledged as anything.

[vast loom]

oof

one of those things has to be a bug right lol

[marble hemlock]

Because Blizzard wasn't and isn't in the habit of acknowledging bugs.

Your acknowledgment usually comes in the form of a bugfix, but until then it's anybodies guess.

And even then they might just change it, but not even put it in the patch notes.

[vast loom]

cuz the new wording on shrouded just gives it a dmg amp all the time right?

unlike the old BFA wording that required stealth for both parts

[marble hemlock]

Based on the wording I'd assume the damage bonus is unconditional, yes. But WoW tooltips are trash. But Realz is making a real effort to make them more clear. But tooltips aren't what decide what spells do, spell-data does.

[vast loom]

yeah i seem to remember some talk from maybe another game where the ability actually wrote the tool tip based on what it did

which is a cool design idea

[gusty mirage]

maybe the team in Albany can help him

because jesus christ are they awful

the tooltips are an absolute nightmare in this game

[hollow river]

yeah they could use an entire ui revamp

to all the windows and tooltip stuff

[marble hemlock]

Albany?

Isn't that a province in scotland or smth?

[brazen zodiac]

xD

[marble hemlock]

Or Ireland

[glacial steppe]

pog, shrouded now in tree

[gusty mirage]

The city in New York silly

But yes probably a province somewhere on those cursed isles where they eat beans on toast

[brazen zodiac]

hating?

[marble hemlock]

You have a city inside a city?

[brazen zodiac]

no new york the state not new york city

[grizzled jay]

all cities have cities in them

[marble hemlock]

Now that seems like a tooltip issue. Who thought that was a good idea.

[gusty mirage]

Is he wrong tho?

[grizzled jay]

usually called townships or boroughs or whathaveyou

[brazen zodiac]

something like that

[marble hemlock]

I love blanket statements like "all" or "none".

[gusty mirage]

I love blankets

[marble hemlock]

Theyre always true.

[gusty mirage]

[brazen zodiac]

i love heated blankets?

[grizzled jay]

all places that are labeled as a 'city' is subdivided into smaller sections

[marble hemlock]

Typically we call them districts

[gusty mirage]

Okay Germany with your fancy efficiency

[marble hemlock]

It'd be silly to call things by the same name

[brazen zodiac]

yeah

[marble hemlock]

Would just create confusion

[grizzled jay]

are you from District 9

[brazen zodiac]

america!

[grizzled jay]

are you a weird bug alien

[brazen zodiac]

confusing country

[gusty mirage]

Good food tho

[brazen zodiac]

yeah clearly we're all about to die of a heart attack

[marble hemlock]

Yeah, i saw the Cheez Whiz picture yday. Great food.

[brazen zodiac]

the gmos controlling our brains

[oak sky]

Just had kbbq im

[gusty mirage]

Damn too real

[marble hemlock]

Hint: KBBQ isn't american food.

[oak sky]

Did i ask

[marble hemlock]

Hint 2: The Hint is in the name.

[brazen zodiac]

LOL

[oak sky]

Its food in america

[gusty mirage]

I just realized I forgot to eat dinner

[marble hemlock]

If I'm in your mom, that doesn't make me your brother.

[brazen zodiac]

KNEWR

[oak sky]

Just eat it now

[brazen zodiac]

goodbye seli

[grizzled jay]

here's a good one for you Seli: there is a city in Missouri called Kansas City. It was originally just called Kansas. When the state of Kansas was added to the Union, the part of the city that was in Kansas named itself Kansas City, Kansas. For some reason, Kansas, MO decided to re-name itself Kansas City. So we have Kansas City, Kansas and Kansas City, MO that are within walking distance of each other.

[brazen zodiac]

i hurt my throat and cannot laugh a lot and u are making that quite difficult

[marble hemlock]

Wow, that's really interesting, thanks.

[grizzled jay]

yw

[gusty mirage]

I’m in bed what

[grizzled jay]

eat the bed

[oak sky]

Did i stutter

[grizzled jay]

yum fiber

[marble hemlock]

You can eat in bed, you know.

[gusty mirage]

No

[brazen zodiac]

in-bed tables are freaking sweet

get one today

[chrome lily]

the best way to eat is in a clean bath

with like one of those bath tub tables

so relaxing

[marble hemlock]

Best way to eat is through a straw

[strange python]

where are the vendetta snapshot aura things?

[brazen zodiac]

best time to wear a striped sweater

[jade abyss]

Get the food from girlfriends mouth x)

Like a bird !

[brazen zodiac]

[thin gate]

guys whats prob gonna be the vendor choice as assa rogue in 9.2.7?

is it sylv dagger jailer necklace + x?

[oak sky]

you cant get jailer neck

[thin gate]

ohh

[oak sky]

you can only get weapons and trinkets

[grave ivy]

Check pins, whispyr put some info there

[oak sky]

and like special items

[loud light]

top pinned post has this mostly answered

[thin gate]

tyvm yall

[wild beacon]

praying for ER to be trash in DF so i don't have to play it 🙏

[jade abyss]

What is EF?

[pure mauve]

Hello guys where how do you think is the optimal use of Cold blood?

[wild beacon]

I meant ER lol

[balmy condor]

wait you cant?

[oak sky]

oh my bad

can you

i dont actually care

im asking so it looks like i do

[kindred crescent]

I am finding it difficult to fit all my buttons into manageable key bindings. I am just getting back into rogue and with death mark and crimson temp on the bars I am finding it hard to fit everything on my bars. Have any tips or suggestions?

[viscid spear]

I thought we were just getting double EoN and a trinket

[marble hemlock]

Pretty sure dinar is only for weapons and trinkets

[balmy condor]

I thought you could just buy anything with dinar

[marble hemlock]

Dinars can only buy weapons/shields or trinkets (plus anduin ring if you're priest/dk)

[balmy condor]

[marble hemlock]

Is the info i got

[balmy condor]

I gotta update a guide before NA wakes up then

[marble hemlock]

Yeah got deadline today too... Fuck me

[balmy condor]

[oak sky]

Madge

[night delta]

Depends on your luck on Sylvanas I guess

[velvet ridge]

Hi I'm na, I'm up

[spice spire]

I’m woke

[hollow river]

imagine sleeping

[royal lantern]

"cries in sleep problems"

[hollow river]

[rocky ruin]

What is better AA Signet Ring or both Mecha Rings?

[spice spire]

Sims indicate mecha

[vast loom]

Mecharings are current bis based on sims

[spice spire]

But 🔮 with primary stat rings in wod possible

[royal lantern]

i refuse to listen what a robot says

is the only thing that counts

[vestal wren]

they are heavily under budget in stats

[spice spire]

I refuse to listen to a Fox pfp but we out here

[vestal wren]

so wod rings are kinda ☠️

[spice spire]

Oh good, I thought they weren’t implemented on the initial sims

Tybg

[vestal wren]

na, they just bad

unless blizz changes something

guess we will know on reset

[night delta]

yeah, they exploded the secondary stat budgets on rings when they removed primaries from them

[spice spire]

So 🔮

[night delta]

to a point it's not even comparable

[rotund mauve]

is it huge difference if you shiv before / after sepsis? I guess before is important as whole dot depends on the dmg boost

[night delta]

not played NF in a bit but I assume you'd want the Sepsis expire damage to be in the shiv window

[spice spire]

If you shiv before without vendetta, your boom won’t be affected by sepsis

That’s why it’s sepsis shiv

[brave gyro]

Deathmark & Indiscriminate Carnage, neat

[fleet whale]

Deathmark icon is Tic Tac Toe

[grizzled jay]

good morning

[vast loom]

But its Tilted

[grizzled jay]

how are you @vast loom

[gusty mirage]

same

[vast loom]

I am good its a MTG morning lol

[brazen zodiac]

epic

[fresh sphinx]

Is it still possible to hit over 20k ST dps as Assassination?

I've been watching Infexious guides and like....it just doesn't make sense to me. He's at 275ilvl pulling over 20k but I'm at 268ilvl and I'm holding at like 9.5k lol. Makes me feel like I'm doing something wrong

[gusty mirage]

is he getting fed externals?

because the "bis" profile for assassination is about 2.5k off of 20k

[burnt latch]

ye thats not a realistic mark to aim for

unless u play at like US 10 or higher level

those guys built diff

[fresh sphinx]

So why can I not seem to get off the ground past the 10k mark at 268?

does the 6-7 ilvl really make almost 10k worth of a difference?

[burnt latch]

hard to say without you providing logs, probably doing mistakes in your rotation

[gusty mirage]

could be rotational issues, group comp, your gear, how you play mechanics

there's a ton that goes into it

equipped ilvl can also be misleading

[ebon notch]

bruh id struggle to break 14k without raid buffs and shit

[gusty mirage]

you could be 275, with a 285 main hand dagger and you'd do more damage than someone who's 278 with a 278 dagger

[burnt latch]

on a patchwerk fight if you get close to your sim dps you're doing good

[ebon notch]

and i dont have any gear upgrades left

[gusty mirage]

simply because of that mh dagger

[fresh sphinx]

well my OH is shit

only piece of gear thats low

[burnt latch]

what do you sim for

[gusty mirage]

also it depends on the fight

[limber lion]

First of all, what are you comparing yourself to? Are you looking at Infexious doing his burst window in a raid and doing 20k and you yourself hitting a dummy for several minutes?

[fresh sphinx]

I'm simming at 13,884

[fresh sphinx]

that's literally exactly what's happening.

[burnt latch]

if you're only pulling 9.5k on ST then its 100% rotational issues

[limber lion]

Well that's what happens when you don't account for raid buffs, consumables, bloodlust and so on

Of course he will burst higher when he has all the raid buffs in the world, on top of using potions, trinkets, consumables

Also the longer you hit a mob for, the less damage you'll end up doing generally.

Just because you burst high, doesn't mean you'll end up high after the boss is dead.

I can promise you that Infexious does not do 20k single target on any boss lol.

[fresh sphinx]

Well that makes me feel better

[limber lion]

Sim yourself using the Target Dummy sim and then try to hit those numbers instead

[fresh sphinx]

but I'd at least like to know what i'm doing wrong with my rotation so that I can hit my sim's numbers

[limber lion]

That'll sim a profile that doesn't have raid buffs or consumables

[fresh sphinx]

I'm literally following the guide to a T

[limber lion]

Your sim is using raid buffs and consumables and everything

So again

not a fair comparison

you need to sim Target Dummy specifically

[fresh sphinx]

bro everyones just using buffs XD

[ebon notch]

improvement doesn't come from a mindset of insecurity also right, you gotta look at it constructively

[limber lion]

if you were to compare yourself to it

[ebon notch]

so coming and asking here is the first step to getting constructive criticism to improve

[limber lion]

Link your sim here

I'll sim it for you

[ebon notch]

but dont watch someone else play and immediately think "damn im not good enough"

[cobalt hemlock]

what usually happens to me the burst is not that high but as the fight happens im slowly climbing towards the #1 place

[fresh sphinx]

you mean like from the addon?

[limber lion]

No

the actual raidbots link

[fresh sphinx]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/f6cfWUXCbuaxdS4kTTL1eA

[limber lion]

okay first of all, never sim stat weights

it's completely useless

[cedar otter]

im at 277 ILVL and my simm is around 15k .. i finish all bosses encounters at 11,5 - 12k dps 😦

[ebon notch]

if you want help with logs, post them and people will help you out

[limber lion]

Also you're not using MFD which is a must for Venthyr profiles.

[fresh sphinx]

mfd?

[gusty mirage]

marked for death

[fresh sphinx]

oh, really?

[gusty mirage]

yuppers

it's a must have for venthyr

[limber lion]

You might want to check the guides again

[fresh sphinx]

can you tell me why?

[limber lion]

Because it's better

it does more damage

thus it's better

[gusty mirage]

because it's hard to maximize the cooldown reduction on flagellation from Unity without it

and what cev said

it's more damage

[limber lion]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/u1azp24UDpc4iWqkjpXEN3
Here's a 3 minute target dummy sim for you.

time yourself for 3 minutes

and try to get close to that number

let us know how you do.

[fresh sphinx]

Will do!

[limber lion]

and use MFD

[fresh sphinx]

quick question before I start

[gusty mirage]

MFD is going to be a huge chunk of dps for you off the bat

[fresh sphinx]

is there a priority for MFD's combo usage?

[gusty mirage]

I'll let the man who discovered the secret tech tell you

[cedar otter]

should I hold MFD for flagelation windows ?

[gusty mirage]

@limber lion become green again ty

🙂

[cobalt hemlock]

are there gonna be crafted necks for season 4 or ill finally be able to replace my neck for this season

[limber lion]

So, Venthyr plays around snapshot windows and an overhang mechanic from the 4p tier set. We use MFD to generate as many combo points as possible with Flagellation so you can sync Flag and Vend together better. You use a rotation where you do Flag - Finisher - MFD - Finisher - Vendetta every time you have Flag/Vend available.

[limber lion]

Don't think so.

[cobalt hemlock]

cool

[limber lion]

This means that you can use MFD once with your cooldowns and once between cooldowns because we play around 1 minute windows.

Would highly recommend that you read the #assassination-faq in its entirety, it'll give you a clear picture on how to do the rotation and how to play around the tier set.

@fresh sphinx

[outer cairn]

So I used to have a shroud macro that would countdown from 10 to 1, but i've lost it and now i can't seem to find one despite however i google it. does anyone have one?

[limber lion]

I would generally stay away from video guides because they get outdated rather quickly or just spread false information. This channel, the pins in this channel and #assassination-faq are your best sources for information.

[fresh sphinx]

got it!

[limber lion]

"shroud wa"

https://wago.io/ryAsZbNdX

literally took me 2 seconds

[limber lion]

2 more months of freedom.

[fresh sphinx]

Alright guys, timed it and everything at 3 minutes

[limber lion]

Yeah, I figured as much.

Now, instead of hitting the dummy, go read #assassination-faq

the rotation is very specific and you have to follow the rules to play it well.

[fresh sphinx]

Alright, will do 🙂

Thanks again @limber lion

[cobalt hemlock]

we prob dont know aprox. how much dmg does hero and raid buffs give you huh or can you sim without any of those

i would imagine yes but dont know how

[gusty mirage]

you can sim without them

[limber lion]

That's what I did. You just sim target dummy and it disables all consumables and raid buffs.

[gusty mirage]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8HmeXZr8uibJFY4QfwxuGN
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/q4Hs4H2ZAgGh7HUqti2UsB

[limber lion]

@fresh sphinx This is what your opener should look like 99/100 times.

and in fact, this is what your burst windows should look like every time (so every minute or so), +- the consumables, racial and Vanish.

[balmy condor]

Hit me harder papa

[limber lion]

[ebon notch]

[gusty mirage]

quiet outlaw rogue

[cobalt hemlock]

probably gonna be some really niche min max thing but why sprint and shadowstep?

or did i just get confused by the thing

[limber lion]

someone ninja pulled and the tanks pull the boss to the side.

[balmy condor]

[limber lion]

sprint and shadowstep don't matter at all

lol

[cobalt hemlock]

ah

better than getting toy switched off the edge just as you pulling the boss

[limber lion]

alright here's a condensed version

sparkle wings are mandatory for giga deeps.

[drifting cloud]

why are you only telling us this now

[viscid spear]

He tries real hard

[gusty mirage]

because he hates you

[drifting cloud]

understandable

I hate myself more tho

[gusty mirage]

you can only battle hate with love ryler

love yo self

[viscid spear]

I should really be using potions

[royal lantern]

No

[hollow river]

tf is Sparkle Wings?

[royal lantern]

Dont dinut, fight the big ah Goblins

[cedar otter]

we use 2 mutilates before slice and dice ? or only 1 ?

[hollow river]

1

[cedar otter]

ty

[hollow river]

each mutilate symbol you see in logs where they're on top of each other is each of your daggers hitting - it's two instances of dmg iirc

[viscid spear]

Mutilate: double the stab, double the pleasure

[violet jackal]

night fae toy

[hearty sun]

!ds

[prisma monolith]

Macroing Ambush to Mutilate only works with the use of a addon.
It comes with the downside that it often requires multiple key presss.
Suggested addon to use(Gnome Sequencer):http://tiny.cc/mxb6tz
Showcase Video: #assassination message

[cedar otter]

my simmulation is telling me to cast 3 envenoms while vendetta is up .. is this right ?

[balmy condor]

if nothing else needs refreshing, sure

[vast loom]

Yeah you never want to just sit still and do nothing in vend and sometimes you get a few 4cp mutilate in a row

[cedar otter]

yeah, but i dont know, my bleeds stays in pandemic all the time while vendetta is up 😄

cant see a window to fit the envenom

[loud hearth]

You know the pandemic windows also change in Vendetta? They are half the regular value.

[hollow river]

did you change your WA pandemic timers to account for the shorter pandemics during vendetta

[storm onyx]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[storm onyx]

Out of curiosity, is there a way to sim different stat allocations for a given ilvl; regardless of armor?

[violet jackal]

do you mean stat weights?

[storm onyx]

not exactly

[limber lion]

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/StatsScaling

[gusty mirage]

beat me too it

[limber lion]

[storm onyx]

Thank yous )

[limber lion]

Start reading from around "Plotting" and you should get a decent idea.

[gusty mirage]

stop bullying me

[limber lion]

the green color is a target for bullying

deal with it, mr. moderator-dude

@gusty mirage are you gonna play assa in season 4?

All the assa homies are ditching :(

[gusty mirage]

in raid?

absolutely

in keys?

absolutely not

[limber lion]

nice

[gusty mirage]

I think I get ksm/keystone hero (if its coming back) and just vibe for the rest of the tier

[gusty mirage]

just imagine sludge with current assa

[storm onyx]

Been playing Assa since Sunwell, other 2 here and there... dont think i can ditch tbf

[limber lion]

Yeh, already did. I was initially benched for it until I opened my mouth

Sin is legit the best spec for Sludge

and it's not even close

[gusty mirage]

I get to finally see the rest of nathria though

that's kinda neat

if you remember my guild died on council

[limber lion]

Yeh, Sire is fun

Sludge is fun as well, especially with the smaller circles

[true pelican]

I was thinking about this too, what do you think the opener will be like? I was thinking prepull mfd-snd and vendetta insta on pull

[vestal wren]

return of the "harder daddy" weakaura

[true pelican]

or do we just ignore the first pillar and play normal timings

[limber lion]

Need to think about it, definitely can't send Flag on pull that's for sure. Vendetta would be fine probably

Pillar is around 55-58s in.

and lasts 12 seconds

I can also see a pre-flag/vend as a possibility

like 8s before he charges in, you press Flag/Vend

0:57, 02:06, 03:15, 04:22 pillars

[true pelican]

yeah pre-flag sounds interesting

guess it depends how much the lash damage is worth vs stats

[thin gate]

guys can some1 help me? does any1 have a decend Plater profile? I have resetted my computer recently... my old one is gone and im not that much into confing it anymore as I once was.

[gusty mirage]

why yes yes I do

https://wago.io/gf0Dg_Ujr
@limber lion 's

[limber lion]

:D

[thin gate]

aight, is it viable in pvp/pve?

i mean im not that kinda guy who needs like 50 modifications for m+ plates

[gusty mirage]

it should be fine in pvp

it's very minimalistic

and I used it before I swapped to atrocity ui

[thin gate]

im happy enough if i s cc/and slow/debuff auras

mind to share it @pm ?

[gusty mirage]

just grab it off that link

you may have to allow crippling on there

for pvp

iirc cev removes it

[limber lion]

it's true

[latent gazelle]

DF stuff still talked about in here or is there a new channel?>

[vestal wren]

no new channel

[balmy condor]

This channel is 99% DF already

[latent gazelle]

ah okay cool.

[balmy condor]

Seems the interest in season 4 is fairly low tbh

[latent gazelle]

quick question then.

[vast loom]

before you ask

check the pins

theres a fuckton of info in there

2nd and 3rd pin msg in particular

[gusty mirage]

yeah because our fav rogue isn't playing s4

[marble hemlock]

i am wdym

[grizzled jay]

the people i know playing s4 are guilds springing up for DF that are using it to trial peeps

[gusty mirage]

you legit messaged me asking if you should quit yesterday

wdym

[marble hemlock]

no i didnt

the fuck

[gusty mirage]

you wanted more time for alpha/beta/lost ark

[marble hemlock]

yeah but like

i didnt say i wanna quit

that was in your dreams

im glad im in those tho

[gusty mirage]

you always are

nova's there too yelling at you to feed her

[latent gazelle]

how would u play MA and garrote/bleed build?

i just remember bfa being shrouded suf and subterfuge.

[gusty mirage]

improved garrote grants the subterfuge 3s after stealth bonus

[vast loom]

no one really knows atm, it depends on a lot of tuning

[gusty mirage]

& you'd utilize MA with dance mostly

[latent gazelle]

MA works with dance now?

[vast loom]

yeah thats the intention

[latent gazelle]

ah okay. then it makes sense.

[vast loom]

but stuff like knowing what we would Cold blood and stuff is all based on tuneing and sims really

[main blaze]

Oh that would be interesting having MA and shadow dance.

[vast loom]

Yeah its looking like Dance is a very good button for DF Assassin rouge esp since it lines up with our CDs

[balmy condor]

Now just need kingsbane to do more than 150 damage per tick

[main blaze]

next alpha patch "kingsbane damage buffed 2%" -_-

Bring back old kingsbane bug to make kingsbane hit harder

[limber lion]

Make Kingsbane hit harder and double IC's range.

[vast loom]

also move the Fan of Knives talents to not awkward spots 🙂

My fix would be swap CTTC and EP on the tree and put Flying Daggers behind CT

[fleet whale]

I think DTB will be the better ST talent in early DF
it's my prediction

[night delta]

It's placed beneath dashing scoundrel, which could alleviate early-expansion energy problems if there are any, so makes sense

[fleet whale]

well not just that, if you think about it DP is a good chunk of Sin's damage

even if you can't double up on deadly, using another lethal poison is a pretty big ST buff if you think about it

[night delta]

i mean damage-wise it all comes down to tuning in the end

[vast loom]

DTTB would make dashing slightly better too

well 2x as good

[fleet whale]

plus two charges of shiv benefits DTB as well

[night delta]

you're right, 2 poisons mean 2 times the dashing procs

[fleet whale]

but now i'm getting scared talking about this

[night delta]

well, less than it benefits KB really

[fleet whale]

i'm smelling a possible nerf lol

[vast loom]

Double shiv benefits our cd window in general

[fleet whale]

pretty hyped for Sin aoe though in DF

[vast loom]

theres so many good ideas for sin currently

i just think DTB is kinda boring tho, but that can be okay not everything needs to be a new complicated button

[night delta]

the only outright bad idea in my opinion is putting atrophic poison in the spec tree instead of class tree

I think it creates to much incentive to switch to sin just for the big raid utility

[vast loom]

yeah but thats an overarching design thing

[night delta]

it should be an out-of-the-way node in the class tree imo

[vast loom]

that he addressed is still being talked about in #outlaw

[night delta]

well then that means I just don't like that part of the design ^^

[fleet whale]

Most of my issues with rogues in DF lies in the class tree

I still don't think dance should be a thing for assassin and outlaw
I don't think MFD and Cold Blood should be separate nodes, they should be on the same one as a choice
Tea needs to be stronger

[night delta]

oh yeah the class tree still has issues

[vast loom]

i like dance for sin and outlaw, stealth is very much a thing for rogues

[main solar]

I mean, I don't see there being much choice in general in the assassination tree. Depending on what content you're doing, you're just going to go all the way down to the preferred capstone and pick up whatever is the highest simming to get there. There isn't really enough points to pick up utilities or QoL of your choice. Its pretty much the same for the class tree atleast from an assassination perspective.

[night delta]

yeah I'd love if we got a class tree not unlike the mage one

maybe with better balanced capstones though

[main solar]

not that it'll be unfun or the talents arent good. But if we're really getting a talent tree, i'd prefer if it wasn't so cookie cutter

[royal lantern]

yep

tree itself is good

but doesnt feel like a "tree"

[fleet whale]

Talent trees like this by nature are sort of bound to be cookie cutter though

you maybe have a point or two to choose what you want

[royal lantern]

cus its just"what capstone do i want? allright, now take all the stuff that is in the way of it" rn

for assa

[main solar]

not exactly, trees like shaman are much more horizontal with more 1 point picks. So you're actually making picks rather than just picking points because you have to in order to get the points bellow it.

also more utility picks and less thru put

[fleet whale]

meh, someone will figure out a cookie cutter build for shammies too

[main solar]

which I get is easier to accomplish on hybrid classes

[vast loom]

Most of the good things in the Sin tree arnt so much the choices, its more the ideas that we get. Like The idea of deathmarking a auto critting kingsblade is really cool

[storm onyx]

You guys are bit boxed in to the spec identities. This is a complete class redesign with the idea of more general accessibility

Same as pre mop

[main solar]

but in general, Assassination is VERY vertical

[night delta]

this tree structure plus the mage tree talent designs would be the perfect recipe for a class tree imo

[royal lantern]

the tree itself is good cus it has great options overall

[vast loom]

Yeah but a lot of the choices are going to be based on sims for every tree

[royal lantern]

but HOW the tree is build is not that great

its overall really good

[main solar]

outlaw and sub don't seem to have the same verticality problem that assassination does

[vast loom]

i think the idea of picking 1 capstone is neat if we then got more points to put else where

but right now we dont really have that choice

because so many things feel "mandatory" i think

like doomblade

and sbs/sepsis

[main solar]

the assassination capstones are also very clearly divided between content/scenario types

[vast loom]

except for DTB

DTB is a toss up

[main solar]

burst/sustain/aoe

[night delta]

that's not a problem in itself imo, rather the way you get to them

[main solar]

so its not so much a playstale preference call as it is whatever you're doing at that moment

[night delta]

capstones being clear cut is actually great design

[vast loom]

i think DTB and KB should be changed into 1 node that is a choice

and make something new in DTB spot

maybe some sort of envenom buff

since that path already has Amp poison and poison bomb

[dawn merlin]

I like that idea tbh, with KB tuned higher to make up for the loss of utility/added complexity

[vast loom]

currently you cant get DTB and KB on purpose

so letting us get 2 capstones

could be fun

or even just more points to put in stuff like CTTC

or PB

[storm onyx]

Dashing is envenom buff itself kind of, all the energy gain will go to finisher

[vast loom]

i think this is the general idea most people have atm

[royal lantern]

i absolutly hate the idea of playing without CTTC

so much

[storm onyx]

Can get Dtb and IC , no?

[royal lantern]

you cant immagine

[vast loom]

nope

you have 4 points left over after getting KB or IC

[royal lantern]

just imagining not playing with CTTC alone makes me not wanna play DF if it ever becomes good

[vast loom]

you can get KB and IC tho

[main solar]

I mainly play assassination, dabble in sub a little, mostly in M+ or in RBGs a few patches ago. But going down the sub tree I definitely felt like I was making some choices. Assassination, all your "choices" are the off branching talents on the side, which you only get like 2-3 points of, and it'll be whatever sims better.

[vast loom]

i dont think CTTC is that big

[dawn merlin]

CTTC is just QoL, losing it feels bad

[vast loom]

we dont have a crazy 4p window where we need to rupture like 3 times

[main solar]

agreed, just build in SnD again

dump the button altogether

[vast loom]

but yeah it might feel like too many plates

[night delta]

yeah, having to set up SnD even just once is torture enough, so having to cast it again while i'm in the middle of something ?

nuh-huh

[main solar]

seal fate being so low in the class tree is also icky

[vast loom]

seal fate needs to be low

so its not auto required

by everyspec

[dawn merlin]

obviously some things in that tree depend on tuning but if you go all the way to seal fate I find it hard to believe that thistle tea wont be worth a single point

[vast loom]

Tea is such a low amoutn of energy in a fight

[night delta]

especially since other specs already have their own CP-gen talents in the spec tree

[main solar]

meh, seal fate was purely an assassination thing for so long. Its equal to outlaw's CDR imo

swap seal fate with elaborate planning

[night delta]

i mean, I agree, imo it should be high on the spec tree

and EP taking its place

[vast loom]

I could see that

[gusty mirage]

would you prefer they do the same to shadow dance?

[storm onyx]

Thought you could with compromises, if we will; is another story

[gusty mirage]

because by that logic

SD should be removed from the class tree

[main solar]

honestly, yes

[night delta]

unironically yes

[gusty mirage]

suddenly all our cool bleed stuff becomes less cool

MA becomes useless at 30% crit

every 2 minutes

[night delta]

it's so emblematic of sub, putting it in the class tree and being so strong is honestly quite bizarre to me

[vast loom]

you need 1 more point

[storm onyx]

Oh

[night delta]

make sepsis 1 min CD, and make it work as it always should have

[main solar]

would shadow dance make stuff fun? sure. But it also introduces so many other problems.

[gusty mirage]

that'll never happen

[vast loom]

Dance is a really cool idea

[gusty mirage]

the current sepsis we have is because the previous version didn't work properly

[vast loom]

for all the specs

imo

[gusty mirage]

it couldn't

[vast loom]

it has great synergy with Count the Odds

in outlaw

[gusty mirage]

giving you stealth while you're soloing something and suddenly you drop combat and it resets

is kinda jank

[vast loom]

we have MA + Seal fate

and dashing

[night delta]

or couldn't be assed to make something decent out of it

I mean

[vast loom]

like theres a lot of cool stuff that dance synergizes with

[night delta]

make it a kind of SD aura that dispells after 1 spell

boom, done

[gusty mirage]

so you're fine with us getting a form of shadow dance

as long as its not named shadow dance

[vast loom]

LOL

[gusty mirage]

and lasts less than dance

[storm onyx]

))

[vast loom]

Give me venom bath

[night delta]

if it works on 1 spell, is it really dance though ?

[main solar]

but shadow dance in class tree honestly makes me feel like we're just going to be playing sub but with more bleeds and poisons than finishers

[night delta]

sounds like a vanish to me

just less janky

[vast loom]

Bath yourself in venom hiding your scent from predators grants you the ability to use stealth only abilites for 9 sec

[royal lantern]

macro /dance to it, problem solved, now its poison dance

[storm onyx]

Have you guys played up to mop, before the current talents trees?

[main solar]

I've played rogue since vanilla, so yes

[storm onyx]

Ah alright

[vast loom]

I still think that dance makes a lot of sense as being a rogue talent rather than just sub,maybe they could retheme it to not be "edgy"

[main solar]

I actually played mutilate all through BC

[night delta]

could also retune it while they're at it

it's honestly way too strong and a good investment compared to the 2 others

[vast loom]

what do you mean retune it?

[night delta]

forgo the damage buff, let it be a sub-specific thing

for starters

[main solar]

it'd be hard to tune that one capstone without completely fucking over the sub tree. Its the same talent, just gives you 2 charges if you spec in both

[night delta]

sin already has a thing that benefits from stealth

[storm onyx]

DF class tree is more universal and SD is not something to deny imo, nor SF; this si complete class redesign. And having set blocks normal by current talent isolations would hamper it

[night delta]

double dipping makes it just too good

[vast loom]

But every spec double dips with it

[main solar]

The class tree in theory should be mostly utility to begin with though

[vast loom]

honestly wouldnt be surprised if sin dance is stronger than a sub dance lol

[gusty mirage]

idk I'm excited that we have something that can completely change the way we play the spec

this spec has been pretty much the same for like 6 years

[main solar]

that's the whole point between splitting the trees

[brazen zodiac]

oxi!

[gusty mirage]

[vast loom]

You cant fit in 31 points of pure utility imo

for a class like rogue

[gusty mirage]

dance itself is utility, it's the spec specific stuff that makes it so good

[night delta]

sure as hell can fit more than the current 5-6 we take though

[main solar]

There's other things changing for assassination though, like deathmark for one. Honestly, if you want to change up the playstyle THAT much, you can always just... i dunno, play something else?

[night delta]

cooldown reductions for other stuff

or even, you know, new stuff

like mage mass poly

[gusty mirage]

what if I don't want to play something else?

[night delta]

20% damage is not utility

[oak sky]

The playstyle isnt actually different

[gusty mirage]

what if I want to play an assassination build that is all about bleeds

and bleeds just crank

[vast loom]

I mean 11 of the nodes we take on the current build are utility

[oak sky]

The core rotation is actually EXACTLY the same

[gusty mirage]

should I go play feral druid?

[main solar]

that already exists in the assassination tree though

[gusty mirage]

does it?

if it wasn't for the tier set

you think bleeds would be this high in damage?

[vast loom]

just look at SoD

[main solar]

im talking the DF talent trees

there's a whole bleed side

[gusty mirage]

and dance gives us more opportunities to interact with those talents

why limit it to every 2 minutes with vanish?

why is vanish a dps cooldown anyway?

who wants that

[brazen zodiac]

lol

[gusty mirage]

vanish used to be GIGA defensive utility for us

until blizzard decided it needs to be part of our rotation

[royal lantern]

"cant you just vanish?" no dude, i used it 50seconds ago to actually do dmg

[night delta]

I mean, I don't see a way vanish cannot be a dps cooldown while stealth-specific throughput talents exist

[loud light]

I think the 'hybrid spec' feel of having some former spec-specific things in the class tree is a very cool concept, just need a little more juice in the paths that aren't FW/dance so it's not the only way to go

[gusty mirage]

that's where having shadow dance helps

[vast loom]

The direction for Sin in DF is def focusing on dots

[gusty mirage]

vanish becomes less important as a dps cd

[storm onyx]

Yea, coupled with Prep, big jail out

[gusty mirage]

yeppers

[night delta]

incidentally, that's also basically what my proposed fix for sepsis does

although balanced differently

[main solar]

I've never liked vanish as a dps cooldown really, but shadow dance was still a core sub mechanic. Its the same as arguing for any other spell in the game, rogue or not, just because you think it'd be fun. Again, I don't mind shadow dance atm, I think it can be fun. But I absolutely wouldn't be butt hurt if we had to give it up to fix some core issues

[night delta]

we don't need a spell which is core identity from another spec to fix ours

[gusty mirage]

I mean at this point we're arguing tuning when numbers aren't even finalized

[night delta]

just invent something idk

[vast loom]

Also what core issues does Sin have?

[storm onyx]

1 stealth usage every 1.5 min thats linked to a timer is not utility

[night delta]

that vanish is a dps CD apparently

[main solar]

mostly aoe stuff

[oak sky]

The class trees for like every class are giving each spec pieces of the other specs dance being in isnt that weird

Did unholy have erw?

Did frost have soul reaper?

[vast loom]

Is it bad to get new things?

[fleet whale]

what frost had soul reaper in WoD and MoP

[gusty mirage]

if you're worried about the balancing of it, don't you worry blizzard won't let rogue be giga omegalul OP

[main solar]

but it was a broad statement for a reason. Perhaps making a compelling talent to challenge shadow dance would be too difficult without completely nuking shadow dance and in turn, sub as well.

[gusty mirage]

we're not firemage or warlock

[vast loom]

I think DoT snapshotting is very much an issue imo

[gusty mirage]

we don't get that luxury

never have, never will

[vast loom]

its just not intuitive

but it is very fun for me atm

until i have to step away for like .5 of a gcd now i miss my overhand garrote D:

[night delta]

well no indeed, and that isn't the point anyway to make sepsis an utility thing

[main solar]

they've very much gone away from snapshotting on purpose

[night delta]

since it's spec specific

[main solar]

it wasnt even intended for this raid tier

it was a bug, and they let it play out to see how we liked it

[vast loom]

if lethal dose is tuned low enough this could be fun i think

[gusty mirage]

funny enough scarizard should've known it was going to happen

[vast loom]

pick either KB or DTB

[storm onyx]

You guys are too rigid bound to “spec identity “ stuff. This is a complete class redesign. And SD is a good contender for a general utility cd

[gusty mirage]

I get people are worried about the interactions with shadowdance being OP and we end up getting nerfed hard

but it's way too early to worry about that stuff

[vast loom]

yeah the idea of dance is cool enough imo, any triple dps class will be subject to the tuning gods

[burnt latch]

Only thing im worried about is the raid buff

[main solar]

its not just "we get nerfed hard" though. You nerf shadow dance too much and pretty much kill the entire subtlety spec

[burnt latch]

Get that shit changed nawwww

[main solar]

just because of OTHER specs being able to get the talent

[vast loom]

Yeah, move it to class tree for sure

idk what it would replace tho

[gusty mirage]

then they can design talents that buff shadow dance in the sub tree

[loud light]

I mean, sub is the only one that gets the talents that make dance better- dmg amp, CDR, etc

that's the point

[night delta]

I can deal with dance being in the class tree. Don't like it but it's alright as long as it's not blatantly way too much value over going another branch

[gusty mirage]

we get budget dance

they get good dance

[night delta]

which its looks like atm but could change, granted

[burnt latch]

[gusty mirage]

we get the most benefit out of seal fate, outlaw and sub aren't exactly hurting for CP generation

[vast loom]

we also get all the stealth bonus's to garrote and MA

[burnt latch]

Oxi spittin facts

[oak sky]

Seal fate

[loud light]

sure, that's how each spec is different with dance

each one gets different stealth benefits

[night delta]

though I do wonder how crazy seal fate outlaw would sound like

[vast loom]

i do think that maybe the class tree has too many obvious choices for the differnt specs?

[gusty mirage]

they'd just overcap like a mfer

[vast loom]

like seal fate is there for sin

[oak sky]

Why would we go seal fate when we can go er+no seal fate

[main solar]

ER is garbo for assassination

[oak sky]

He doesnt know

[gusty mirage]

ER is going to be garbo for everyone tbh

[vast loom]

yeah 100%

maybe make ER flag 🙂

[oak sky]

Im telling varas

[vast loom]

or something differnt entirely

[night delta]

probably yeah, but the prospect of almost always going Builder -> finisher -> Builder -> finisher whithout broadside

is intriguing

[gusty mirage]

https://tenor.com/view/idc-lol-idc-lol-idc-cat-i-dont-care-gif-21450775

[oak sky]

https://tenor.com/view/floryn-mlbb-mobile-legends-bang-bang-ratio-gif-25173253

[gusty mirage]

then they'll be as "excited" as sub rogues are this tier when their 4pc procs

[main solar]

I still think the majority of the problems is how vertical and how little branching there is in both the class and assassination tree

[gusty mirage]

I will say that's a fair criticism

[vast loom]

Yeah i feel like sin never has the choice to get acrobatic strikes

[gusty mirage]

you heavily invest to get to certain "must haves" ye?

[vast loom]

yeah

[gusty mirage]

and you end up taking shit you don't care about

[night delta]

Yeah, structure not unlike the death knight tree would be great

[gusty mirage]

like leeching poison

[vast loom]

IE seal fate and Dance

[gusty mirage]

who ever gave a fuck about leeching poison

[night delta]

you can start at one side and end up at the other

[vast loom]

same thing about like TTB and venom rush like yeah they are nice to have but all i really want is KB

[gusty mirage]

the problem with that is idk if DK has capstones that are as impactful as DTB/Kingsbane/IC can be

[fleet whale]

leeching poison is great in open world

[night delta]

yeah that's why I said structure

[vast loom]

the only capstone i feel good taking EVERY point on is DTB tbh

[gusty mirage]

good in torghast too

and mage tower

[fleet whale]

I mean I won't mind it actually having it in raid

[gusty mirage]

but idk if I ever pushed N and went god damn leeching poison looks great

[night delta]

talent design would be best if it approached the mage one, though I understand it's not possible to such an extent

[oak sky]

I mean you take poison bomb so....

[vast loom]

ah true

fuck pb

i forgot

[fleet whale]

poison bomb is buffed though

[night delta]

but i'm sure there can be still more utility in there for us

[gusty mirage]

it's okay, you're not the only one

[vast loom]

"buffed"

what is it

[gusty mirage]

I forget I have it sometimes when talented into it

[vast loom]

5% extra chance overall?

[fleet whale]

what lol

it's 50% chance to proc if you use a 5 cp envenom

compared to 20% today

[vast loom]

oh is it ? i thought it was 5% per cp

[main solar]

just seems like an overall design flaw to me. There's so much emphasis put on the capstones and making sure we can't get certain broken combinations that the rest of the tree suffers. There's really good talents all over the tree, but the pathing atm is my only issue.

[oak sky]

2 point talent

[vast loom]

ah

the WoWhead doesnt have both tooltips

okay 50% is okay maybe

[oak sky]

Unfortunately its still poison bomb though

[main solar]

3 point talents in general just seem harsh for ANY class or spec

[vast loom]

idk just make it 100% at 5cp

[fleet whale]

3 point talents exist to waste points

[main solar]

so, not fun.

[fleet whale]

it's just gatekeeping really

[vast loom]

I dont mind it if each point feels like im gaining a lot

[oak sky]

I dont think 1 3 pointer in an entire tree is so bad

[vast loom]

3 pointers

in the bottom secetion

kill choice

[main solar]

Exactly. Not fun. Gate keep me by making me pick some ultility of my choice

[vast loom]

cuz at that point you only have 10 more points

[night delta]

yes and no though

[oak sky]

We dont have the take multiple capstones design

[night delta]

if a broken capstones combo exists

[oak sky]

Its a different thought process

[night delta]

you end up with even less choice in the end

[main solar]

because right now we just have a lot of "illusion of choice"

[fleet whale]

hmm i just realized the frost dk tree doesn't have a single 3 point talent

[main solar]

there's a lot of trees that dont

[vast loom]

Trees in general are always going tto be an illusion of choice in the end there will be 1 tree that sims the best anyway lol

[fleet whale]

actually sub doesn't have a 3 point talent either

[night delta]

3 pointers make sens with us only having 3 capstones, each insanely impactuf on its own

[gusty mirage]

ye

otherwise you'd get 2 out of the 3 always

[night delta]

if we had more, less strong capstones, then yes they should be removed

[main solar]

shaman also doesnt have any 3 points in any of their trees, and right now its being touted as one of the, if not the best tree atm

[vast loom]

I think the tree should combine into 1 3 choice capstone

with the current 3 choices

[obtuse robin]

but but but we can take kb and carnage 😄

[vast loom]

and we just choose how we get there

[night delta]

whuh ?

[gusty mirage]

not currently you don't

[oak sky]

In 0 practical scenarios yes

[night delta]

it's basically not changing anything

[fleet whale]

dark brew seems to be the best capstone by far for sub

[gusty mirage]

KB hitting for less than auto attacks

[vast loom]

It allows you to take a Dashing KB build instead of a Zold

[fleet whale]

but that may be due to shadow mist and the rotten being bad

[vast loom]

or Zold Carnage

[night delta]

ah yes nvm

[vast loom]

lots of choice in how you get the capstone

rather than the choice being the capstone

[gusty mirage]

those three pointers were put there specifically so we couldn't get 2 capstones

[vast loom]

yeah so combine them into 1 choice node 🙂

[night delta]

I actually dig it now that I think about it

[obtuse robin]

more importantly pb was made 2 points to not pair kb and dtb

thats the real evil one

[oak sky]

Or we could have 2 pointers and like another talent in each row but idk if there are enough ideas and shit to make that a reality

[gusty mirage]

I mean converging the 3 to 1 choice node at the end of the tree doesn't do anything except make people feel better that there's a path to the end

[main solar]

To be fair too, I don't want to sound like im just shitting on Realz' design. He's done a very good job with the trees so far. But feedback is feedback

[fleet whale]

yes realz has done well

[gusty mirage]

not that I think it's a bad idea

I think we could benefit from more choice nodes throughout

esp for the utility stuff

[fleet whale]

I do wonder if assassination is the only spec so far that can only pick one capstone in the spec tree though

[night delta]

Honestly I like how many spec trees have a choice node smack dab in the middle of the second layer

[vast loom]

I just like the idea of beign able to choose how i get to the capstone because Zold/pb/dashing all ahve very differnt purposes that might be useful along side the other capstones

[obtuse robin]

we can pick more then 1 capstone

[oak sky]

Dont think it actually matters its just a design philosphy thing, as long as we get roughly the same power level

[main solar]

dunno if choice nodes are the answer for our problems atm. It just feels like we don't have enough points to spend really. We're spending like 90% of it on thru put, and the other 10% is all at the top of the tree just to get past gates.

[thin chasm]

Hey All, I'm likely moving over to Assassination from feral druid. Giving up on the dream, tired of being a meme. I'm trying to master the AoE and even ST rotation where can I find some tips? WoWhead appears to pretty basic and unless i'm blind no mention how much i should pool ect

[limber lion]

Pooling is not a thing.

[main solar]

and even then, its mostly mathed out than a utility choice

[limber lion]

All you need is #assassination-faq and Wowhead.

[thin chasm]

Even with Elaborate Planning?

[limber lion]

Wowhead is great.

[limber lion]

Yes

[obtuse robin]

nah it does matter the whole point is for u to feel good about ur choices and pathing not numbers

[limber lion]

Pooling is history

[thin chasm]

well there's problem 1 haha

[limber lion]

and has been history for 4+ years

[night delta]

I liked pooling for envenom windows 😢

[storm onyx]

I dont like ChoiceNodes couse they automatically disbale a talent; depending on what they are I might want to have both at same time.

[main solar]

like EP vs CttC. We want the QoL there, but already see it as not worth the 2 points

[storm onyx]

ChoiceNodes kill versitility of a tree

[oak sky]

If you get one capstone that feels super powerful it can be just as good as getting 2 weaker capstones

[fleet whale]

I don't think were gonna skip CTTC

maybe in M+ or aoe

[oak sky]

Number question

[limber lion]

we most likely are.

[night delta]

choice node should be clearly dividing between 2 almost opposite talents

[limber lion]

koji did some sims

and it's not looking good for cttc

[obtuse robin]

if u get to choose 1 powerful capstone i dont want to spend 3 points of the one b4 just to gate keep

[night delta]

the fire mage combustion-buff talent is a great example of a good choice node

[gusty mirage]

honestly with mfd being pretty much mandatory for us

I can see that

[night delta]

make better combustion, or make everything else out of combustion better

[oak sky]

Luckily I was only talking about getting 1 capstone and not about 3 point nodes

[limber lion]

Nah it's just that Maim + Blindside gives more dps than CTTC does

pay farewell to cttc boys

[gusty mirage]

hardcasting snd vs having that qol buff is kind of whatever considering you're giving up real dps for that qol

[limber lion]

gonna have to cast snd 5-6 times an encounter soon.

gg's

[main solar]

From some of Realz' comments, I can see there being some changes to the forced MFD and Cold Blood nodes.

[oak sky]

Ew

[gusty mirage]

fuck

whatever will I do?

[storm onyx]

Would like to bye bye snd tbf

[gusty mirage]

[obtuse robin]

ok then i dont want to spend more points on a skill all rogues hate in pb just to get 1 capstone that is powereful

[gusty mirage]

I have to push SND more than ONCE?

[fleet whale]

yeah i wish blizz never brought slice back

[gusty mirage]

[main solar]

I hate them being forced right now, but wouldnt be surprised if that's already changed for next build

[oak sky]

Make snd a class passive or something if they like it so much

[gusty mirage]

I mean

it is

lol

[oak sky]

Its a finisher

?

[gusty mirage]

that passively gives you more attack speed

plus free alacrity stack bro

[fleet whale]

it's just an extra button that doesn't need to be there

[gusty mirage]

why do you hate alacrity

[fleet whale]

let me free upa keybind

cause it looks like i'm gonna need a lot of them in SL

[main solar]

should just make it like legion and bfa. I hated that they gave it back to us.

[viscid spear]

PTSD from the 2nd boss in Spires

[gusty mirage]

(I got it my first run of spires)

[thin chasm]

in MT situations, do we prioratize getting 5pt ruptures out before we CT?

[gusty mirage]

celerity

that is

[gusty mirage]

you want to keep up CT as much as possible

while maintaining ruptures

[viscid spear]

I meant one of it's lines

[gusty mirage]

it's a lot of plate spinning

[gusty mirage]

yeah I know, also drops celerity

[thin chasm]

Yeah I'm noticing, kind of similiar to feral in that regard

[viscid spear]

Nice save

[oak sky]

Feral has no plate spinning in aoe tho its like sub

[gusty mirage]

yeah you only envenom to refresh slice and dice in aoe, besides that its maintaining crimson tempest and spreading ruptures

[thin chasm]

from what I see, it's open up with as many garotes you can get out as possible, throw up slice and dice, build to 5 get out CT, then start doing ruptures, using envom to refresh slice and dice

tab targetting garote as well obviously

[oak sky]

Yeah you got it pretty much

[gusty mirage]

yeppers

[thin chasm]

we still snap shot a bit

[gusty mirage]

now it's just about getting comfy with spinning all the plates

[oak sky]

Oh yeah fair enough tigers fury stuff?

[night delta]

and pray mobs live longer than 10 seconds so you can appear somewhere on the dps meter

[thin chasm]

yeah

do we ever ambush it feels like we never would

[gusty mirage]

laughs in destro warlock

[thin chasm]

unless garote would be a weaker version

[gusty mirage]

in aoe pretty much never

[oak sky]

Technically with subterfuge in single target you would

Its like micro dps gain though

[thin chasm]

is that during the vanish window? i was under the asumption with subterfuge we'd still throw out as many garrotes as possible

[oak sky]

In pure single target

[thin chasm]

oh ok

[oak sky]

Yeah in aoe