assassination

[marble hemlock]

thats like

a decent dps gain

when it was the differnece between getting 1 finisher into yellow and 1 into red

[balmy condor]

what

[marble hemlock]

or both into red

[balmy condor]

what spec are we in seli

go back to bed grandpa lets get you tucked in

the delusions are back

[marble hemlock]

well i said bandits guile, which obviously meant combat

you didnt argue that point before didya

[balmy condor]

no because fuck outlaw

who gives a shit

[marble hemlock]

yeah, fuck outlaw

combat =!= outlaw

combat was goated

[limber lion]

Rose-tinted glasses

[balmy condor]

^ notice this, insight obviously is a reason

[night delta]

combat was identity-less

[marble hemlock]

anyway, anticipation sucks cause it basically just servers as a way to not worry about RNG overcap

[night delta]

play rogue but actually play war

[marble hemlock]

you said that after i said what i said

so i win

[balmy condor]

so outlaw

[night delta]

I mean outlaw got the pirate vibe going on

[marble hemlock]

combat had the highest value in pooling/strategically delaying CDs

[limber lion]

Pirate warrogue

[balmy condor]

that it did

[marble hemlock]

not a LOOK ITS A PIRATE identity, but like, it had great skill expression and struck at the core of what rogues used to be in the old days of energy being tick based and how that affected your rotation for small burst windows

so it was very rogue~ish still in terms of wow class identity

[balmy condor]

I am a combat enjoyer, insight and anticipation worked

but for sin?

[strange python]

Tick based energy

[balmy condor]

no fucking shot

[night delta]

tick-based energy ended at 4.0, no ?

[marble hemlock]

i dont even remember

if sin didnt just play deeper

cause rupture had higher AP coefficient with more CP

[balmy condor]

tick based energy was 4.0 I think yeh

but haste tick rate increase wasn't till 8.0

[limber lion]

If Combat was so good and amazing and everyone loved it, why did they rework it/remove it?

[marble hemlock]

thats the question we all ask ourselves on the regular

[strange python]

Cuz change for sake of change

[marble hemlock]

they couldve made it outlaw in the theme, but not change the actual spec

[night delta]

Cuz it was basically arms warrior with other mechanics

[marble hemlock]

please

get out of here with your arms warrior stuff

[night delta]

played differently, looked the same from outside

[marble hemlock]

it wasnt even remotely close

[limber lion]

So they made it into a Fury warrior instead?

Sick

[marble hemlock]

arms played like sub more than it played like combat

with CS burst windows and shit, similar to dance/fw windows for sub

[balmy condor]

legion reworks, every spec had to be reworked

[marble hemlock]

except assa

[strange python]

[balmy condor]

need new identity

help

[strange python]

Good ol assa

[balmy condor]

rework the talents

[subtle tundra]

yes i do enjoy having played the same thing for the past 8 years

🥰

[night delta]

plenty of specs didn't change core identity like, AT ALL in legion

[marble hemlock]

when the biggest change in 10years is that garrote is now a rotational ability with a cooldown

[limber lion]

You've barely been alive that long

[balmy condor]

I miss wod sub and outlaw so fucking much

[night delta]

they just felt like some needed it

[marble hemlock]

so you get 2 instead of 1 bleed, so they reduce VW regen and call it a day

[subtle tundra]

im 14

[marble hemlock]

i miss VW doing damage on proc

that was nice

[limber lion]

Why

[night delta]

I mean why not

[strange python]

I’d want wod classic to try wod sub

[night delta]

but it's completely uninvolved

[strange python]

See what the fuss is about

[night delta]

it's basically just poison procs, but coming from bleeds

[balmy condor]

3 minute shadow dance big burst dk

[strange python]

3 minute

[limber lion]

Sounds creamy

[strange python]

That shit better have been venthyr chicken nuclear wtf

[balmy condor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMvXC_R_LPQ

[strange python]

Isn’t this hfc

[balmy condor]

yes

[marble hemlock]

cause it allowed us to scale into aoe without affecting our st very much

[strange python]

But thats cheating

Hfc was propped up by soul cap

[marble hemlock]

it was a good knob to tune if you wanted to improve or lower AoE output

[balmy condor]

this video doesn't have soulcap

[marble hemlock]

wanna boost aoe? increase VW damage. st is 2% too high now? lower mutilate damage. done.

[strange python]

Alright lets see it then

[marble hemlock]

and it also effectively incentivized you to bleed beyond an energy-sustain level, that was absent for a long time

cause you only went for sustain in legion to spam fok with MAlch/PK relics, and in bfa you had echo

[strange python]

Sub on top on pull

[marble hemlock]

i mean sub was busted

in cata/mop/wod

mostly cata

combat was busted in mop/wod

[balmy condor]

and he did that without class trinket or soulcap

[marble hemlock]

and then ring+soulcap made sub busted

[balmy condor]

class trinket was just straight ambush damage buff

[limber lion]

Sounds pretty sick yeh

[balmy condor]

200k opener was dogshit at the time, with the full combo was banging out like 500k

big nut

[limber lion]

Is that hemorrhage

[balmy condor]

it is

[limber lion]

Monka

[balmy condor]

multistrike was a stat back then

[marble hemlock]

hemo snapshot

in FW

[limber lion]

Hemorrhage, rupture, slice

Christ

[balmy condor]

and whenever you multistriked with a backstab on sub, it advanced your bleed ticks

[marble hemlock]

sub was the maintenance spec in cata

you had to maintain slice, rupture, hemo and recuperate

(since recup gave energy every tick)

[balmy condor]

so a 20 second rupture on wod sub ended up being more like 12-14

the OG exsang

[marble hemlock]

and hemo applied a bleed based on its initial hit, so you wanted to get a juicy hemo crit during find weakness for max bleed dam

[balmy condor]

but better because it fucking made sense

[marble hemlock]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEJWDipadnw

sub opener in cata

[night delta]

exsang would make sense if bleeds were 50%+ of our damage profile, me loves some burst windows

[strange python]

Ye

Better days for sub

[marble hemlock]

when dance was a fucking massive cd

[balmy condor]

I hate to be that guy, but unless you have a 10 second bleed steroid on top, it's still gonna be bad

doesn't matter if it's 10% or 50%

if you aren't buffing that windows alongside exsang

exsang sucks

without a short term steroid, dot compression just adds more regular ticks

[marble hemlock]

http://puu.sh/Jd3xU/0a7a83512e.jpg

the good ol days

of rogue being a dps god

[balmy condor]

and it does that in the form of having to refresh the dot earlier

which means you replace an envenom with a rupture

[marble hemlock]

no raid utility but it didnt matter

cause you were pumping harder than anybody else by a mile

[balmy condor]

you're not really getting more cp or anything out of it

the gain is just the difference between a normal rupture and an envenom

[night delta]

yes, not arguing it's a dps increase overall Whispyr

[strange python]

Dot compression may make sense for once with shadow dance

Exsang good

[night delta]

but it's a short-term burst-ish window

which is bad atm and because of our damage profile

[marble hemlock]

i hope to god they nerf dance

cuz with NS its just too good

[balmy condor]

its true

[marble hemlock]

30% amp

[limber lion]

Hmmm

[marble hemlock]

dance in DF tree atm is just vendetta

but better

and aoe

[limber lion]

With or without 4p

[strange python]

Ye seli

[limber lion]

Because with 4p bleeds are at the top

[night delta]

exsang doesn't stack with 4p tho

[limber lion]

?

[night delta]

so you'd be using it out of Vendetta

[limber lion]

It doesn't?

[night delta]

I mean, I assume

[limber lion]

Well you assume wrong

[strange python]

I just want dance to be a nuclear bomb cooldown again for sub

[marble hemlock]

yeah its sad they never made the concept work of being able to choose between high dance uptime but low amp, or low dance uptime but high amp

closest we had was TFD sub in bfa with NS+DShadows

[strange python]

Yea its hard to balance

You have the find the right middle ground on base spell values

[night delta]

just make dance permanent

[marble hemlock]

i mean sub just lacked the resource gain to support a non-shadowfocus dance

[strange python]

Ye

[marble hemlock]

NS/DSh will never be a viable alternative if you cant use every GCD within dance. and increasing dance duration with SL only made things worse

fights like sunking for example i couldve easily seen an NS/Dsh build work

[strange python]

I think it would have been neat if Dark shadow changed the deepning shadow passive in some way

[marble hemlock]

just to omegablast the shield

[strange python]

Big issue with the whole thing was symbols lol

[marble hemlock]

hmye

[strange python]

It feels really fucking garbage to play

When your 1 min dance is still being cdr’d 1 sec per cp spent

[marble hemlock]

couldve just given dshadow symbols on shdance cast

for extra symbol uptime

[strange python]

Yea true

[marble hemlock]

desynced CDs always suck when you bring cdr into play

its fine if the CDs are static cause then you can play around it

play and plan

if you know fight is gonna be 5min30, you know when to sync and when to send on CD etc.

god i hate CDR as a mechanic

[strange python]

Ye its kinda aids

[limber lion]

Same, not a fan

[strange python]

At least some of that is shaved off with ES talent being deleted in sub

[storm onyx]

Haste was a thing for that build due to auto-attack poison applications; un forseen interaction that deadly forcing instant poisons. got nerfed Bad, nm

[dark garnet]

Cdr is cool when its the only cd/cds you want synced has same cdr

[vestal wren]

would rather say baseline

[strange python]

.5 cdr is shaved off

Thats what i mean by es brotha

Making 2 charge a talent in sl was a mistake anyway

Might as well have been baseline

[vestal wren]

it kinda is in sl, even tho you could in theory go with 1 dance charge or even dance-less

but with how much of the tree depends on shadow dance, going danceless is rly only a option for sin/outlaw

[strange python]

Ye in theory you can also just only press backstab the whole fight

Can do a lot of things in theory

[vestal wren]

I think the main issue for sub with a one dance build is that the alternative paths might not give you strong enough options

so your gain from the loss of one charge is hard to justify (also FW)

[strange python]

Unless you wanna play without symbols 1 charge is a terrible idea

Just take 2 charges and call it a day

1 charge with cdr is terrible gameplay when symbols is involved

[strange python]

What's the general consensus on deathmark after lethal dose gets nerfed? Seems pretty weak for a cooldown unless you combo it with something like shadow dance and exsang which is a lot of investment just to make it good

[balmy condor]

very good

the damage gain from having 4 bleeds instead of 2 is already big

there's also a strong shift to poisons

and it doubles that too

[main blaze]

Its kind of like a different version of our tier bonus right now. With a little more added to it with damage and poison being duplicated.

[balmy condor]

honestly deathmark might just be stronger than vendetta baseline already

[night delta]

basically exsang if it didn't half duration

plus a boost to poisons too

[balmy condor]

yeh

[night delta]

though I wonder how double amp poison is supposed to work

[strange python]

Right, do we know if it doubles the 3% DR poison to 6% during its effect?

[night delta]

double bonus to envenom when both at 15 stacks ?

or stacks twice as fast ?

[balmy condor]

that's a non-lethal poison, deathmark specifically duplicates lethal poisons

[strange python]

Ah, shame

[balmy condor]

this one I assume

[night delta]

so maybe a strong envenom window if we can stack amp quickly enough

[balmy condor]

yeah but it needs time to ramp up is the issue

[night delta]

(yeah i'm still on that "making envenom good again" copium blimp)

[balmy condor]

and if you deathmark, it's not going to duplicate the stacks already on there

so there's a good chance you just deathmark, get one of them to 15, the other is at like 9

and then you consume the first 15, get the seconds one to 15, consume that

which would be twice as often, but not twice as strong

[steel ridge]

feint @ martyrdom, yay or nay?

[balmy condor]

yay

alternatively, it could also just give twice as many stacks per application

which would probably be worse actually

imagine you envenom at 13-14 stacks, don't get the benefit, and then proc 3 times with 2 stacks each

now you're overcapping before you can get the next envenom off

since it maxes at 20

that sounds like a nightmare

[night delta]

I'd imagine delaying envenom just a little bit in that kind of situation is preferable anyway

[strange python]

Any word on the nasty three pointers getting changed btw? Stuff like zoldycks and alacrity

[balmy condor]

yeah but you're getting big energy from deathmark, you'd be overcapping energy most likely

[balmy condor]

what's the issue with them?

as of now there's no word on changes

[strange python]

I think a six point investment for a three point node like zoldycks is ridiculous when you consider how much pathing freedom classes like shaman have in their trees being able to pursue an entirely different build for just three points

Same with deeper strategem requiring three alacrity points before it can even be considered

[night delta]

with two 1.8 daggers and no haste or buff whatsoever we put up 1 attack every 0.9 sec, correct ?

(trying to calc how quick the amp poison would stack theoretically)

[warm stratus]

Hey guys is this just retail chat for rogues or classic as well?

[balmy condor]

I mean the shaman tree has similar stuff though, they just have connectors all over the place that we don't

[balmy condor]

classic is in #classic-discussion but you're probably better off in a classic discord or something if those exist

[warm stratus]

Okay thank you

[night delta]

also, does haste stack additively with SnD or multiplicatively ? In regards to attack speed

[balmy condor]

haste applies to baseline attack speed, which is then multiplied by snd

[night delta]

alright

[balmy condor]

why do this when you can just look at a log

[night delta]

I like math lol

[balmy condor]

aight well you do you

[vast loom]

Are we worried about needing to save shiv for bigger dr for raid mechanic stuff?

[balmy condor]

no

kinda questionable if it even works atm

good chance it doesn't interact

[strange python]

Is kingsbane going to be a choice node with sepsis?

[balmy condor]

it's possible

if kingsbane comes back it would be a choice node with tiny toxic if anything

[strange python]

That would make it impossible to get unless they nerf dtb no?

[balmy condor]

the idea is to make it competitive with dtb

dtb is only op because of lethal dose, which is getting nerfed

[strange python]

Wouldn't amplifying poison still be too good to pass up?

Probably not if kingsbane is good but yeah

[balmy condor]

amp poison currently is pretty terrible

30% increased damage on an envenom every now and then isn't really that impressive

if the nature poison on it is strong I guess

[dark garnet]

All gonna change with tuning

[balmy condor]

correct

[strange python]

Nerfing things a little bit and allowing people to take two cap stones would be very interesting

[balmy condor]

yeh I mean at the end of the day, the idea is to make it interesting and not have giga op talents

stuff isn't implemented on alpha yet and it's the first iteration

we have a long way to go

[strange python]

With only one cap stone there is not much room for experimentation

[balmy condor]

then take 2 capstones

[strange python]

Hopefully you'll be able to do just that after a few tree updates

[night delta]

yeah, right now amp is just a little less instant damage than deadly poison and no DoT, but boosts an envenom once in awhile

[balmy condor]

I mean you can right now

there's nothing stopping you

[dark garnet]

You can have 2 as is

[strange python]

Well you can but it doesn't really work

[night delta]

if it's an increase over deadly poison it's not by much, and not worth talenting into it unless you also go for DTP

[balmy condor]

idk

this looks fine to me

[brazen zodiac]

epic

[balmy condor]

do a little m+ play 2 different capstones

[hollow river]

TTB

[balmy condor]

the world is your oyster

[gusty mirage]

I’m allergic to oysters tho

[hollow river]

If it truly becomes Kingsbane

[gusty mirage]

[hollow river]

I’ll eat all the oysters

I’ll be clammed up

[balmy condor]

could even do some crazy thing like this

who's stopping you

that looks fine too

big generators, little sepsis actually

[brazen zodiac]

lots of options

[balmy condor]

no capstones needed

[strange python]

This would work quite nicely if ttb becomes kingsbane yeah

[balmy condor]

the whole point is being able to just make a tree

if you wanna be bleeding edge top dps

[hollow river]

True

[balmy condor]

then come back in 4 months

cause everything atm is irrelevant to you

[hollow river]

Role players unite

[gusty mirage]

Why is everyone so obsessed with kingsbane? Genuine question

[hollow river]

We just dislike ttb

[gusty mirage]

No that’s not it

[hollow river]

And pins say kingsbane may come with ttb

[brazen zodiac]

oxi!

[hollow river]

Idc about kingsbane tbh

I know many people do

[gusty mirage]

Kingsbane was on most people’s wishlist

[hollow river]

But it doesn’t change playstyle either

[spice spire]

Name brand shiv

[balmy condor]

sepsis but better fantasy and less janky on the end

[hollow river]

Iirc?

I mostly want shrouded suffocation

[balmy condor]

kingsbane is just sepsis, but it ramps up with poison ticks

instead of whatever sepsis does

[hollow river]

Because I never played with it

[gusty mirage]

Ticks down and gives us an ambush

[night delta]

can deadly poison still proc from builder abilities ?

[gusty mirage]

Yea

[night delta]

If so one would assume amp poison would too then

[balmy condor]

well yes I know what it does the point is who cares

[gusty mirage]

Sepsis cares

[brazen zodiac]

free ambush pog

[dark garnet]

Ambush lacks interactions with the spec

[gusty mirage]

Ambush lacks the damage to be worth pressing

[hollow river]

^

[gusty mirage]

Vs losing a combo point

[hollow river]

Was bout to say just make it do more damage

[gusty mirage]

I can’t wait for varas’s no seal fate build

[hollow river]

Sin should have a nature damage stealth builder

[ebon notch]

Give a node that makes ambush do 500% damage after a shadowstep

[hollow river]

Instead

[ebon notch]

Make it real spicy

[hollow river]

[spice spire]

Amen

Fok for 1

[gusty mirage]

Give us a node that allows us to one shot the boss with shadowstep

[spice spire]

Just as god intended with 45% crit

[ebon notch]

How did I not think of that

[gusty mirage]

No other ability, shadow step just kills the boss

[ebon notch]

You are very talented Oxipital

[hollow river]

So dfa one shot?

[gusty mirage]

Someone call Ion

[night delta]

This ain't Torghast

[gusty mirage]

I got loads of terrible ideas

Lemme design the tier sets

[ebon notch]

Hit us

What you got

[brazen zodiac]

xd

what would your tier set be oxi

[gusty mirage]

Nope this is too good to share

[spice spire]

Jesus statue by the bed

[strange python]

Pretty sure most people would just prefer anything over ttb, kingsbane is the most realistic because pins

[ebon notch]

Cope

[spice spire]

Nah even before it was brought up

Kingsbane was asked for ad nauseam

[gusty mirage]

Fair enough, also I’m pretty sure we would’ve taken any legendary over ttb there

[ebon notch]

As good as assa killing spree?

[gusty mirage]

Better

[spice spire]

Sin KS

[ebon notch]

Y'all haters

[gusty mirage]

4pc turns you into a Furbolg and you call everyone from Timbermaw Hold to fuck up your enemy

[spice spire]

2p is just blade flurry for assassination

God bless

[ebon notch]

If you could see what it looks like in my head then you'd like it

[brazen zodiac]

..

[gusty mirage]

Think about it

[brazen zodiac]

good idea oxi but

do u have a real idea

[gusty mirage]

No

I do not

[brazen zodiac]

ok np

ur onto something gamer

[gusty mirage]

Brain mush. Helped a friend get to 2200 io from 300 the last 2 days and then I finished out my duelist grind

Brain no workie no more

[brazen zodiac]

did u try turning it on and off

[spice spire]

Today is reset day too oxi

[ebon notch]

Who knew oxi had hands

[brazen zodiac]

or maybe just replacing it all together with the newer model

brain 3k?

[gusty mirage]

Nope you guys can handle that

[spice spire]

Bro?!

[gusty mirage]

I did god’s work

In 2 days.

[spice spire]

I’m gone from Thursday on Smdh

[gusty mirage]

It’s 350’io fuck you you do it

[spice spire]

Val had some shit planned or something

Something about putting me in a retirement home

[dark garnet]

2p ambush also shiv your target
4p shiv has a 20% chance to apply sepsis

Ttb stonks

[gusty mirage]

[ebon notch]

Am I using it right @echo geyser

[spice spire]

No

[ebon notch]

Quiet old person

[spice spire]

is me this week

Leaving the 20s

[gusty mirage]

Kek

[balmy condor]

[spice spire]

Ttb stonks

[strange python]

Shadow dance ttb burst builds

[balmy condor]

I hate it here

[gusty mirage]

[dark garnet]

Just as god intended

[spice spire]

Pause

There is nothing holy about ttb

[ebon notch]

You're here forever whisp

[balmy condor]

this is my penance

[dark garnet]

Ttb is based

[ebon notch]

Oh no what did you do

[spice spire]

He was in sub for the first half of the tier

[gusty mirage]

Woah dude you cant walk around showing that

[dark garnet]

Cant wait for shiv to be top dam in my m+ dmg breakdowns

[gusty mirage]

You must be planning on waiting a long time

[ebon notch]

He's a sub player at heart

[balmy condor]

but I literally play in <doms>

[gusty mirage]

Got em

[balmy condor]

<subs> is our alliance guild

I would never

[spice spire]

You’re a bottom of I’ve ever seen one

[lucid birch]

Gm

[spice spire]

GM mister dsnow hope you have a banger day

[lucid birch]

You too mr makeitquake

[night delta]

So this is a quick calculation I made about amp. poison procs and envenoms empowered by it (when at 15 stacks).

It is made assuming Improved poisons x2 (+20%) and that the baseline 30% chance to proc per hit are not a tooltip lie ; it could very well be though and if so tell me so I can know I completely wasted this effort ^^'

tell me also if there's a glaring calculation or starting point (like attack speed) issue

[balmy condor]

idk what I'm supposed to get from this honestly

[night delta]

it's just a quick study on how often amp poison would make envenoms empowered in several situations

[balmy condor]

okay so where's the envenom uptime

[night delta]

the column NbSec counts how many seconds we get of envenom buff before the next envenom ; made assuming we don't cast envenom until it's empowered again

[violet jackal]

I don;t know but that graph says twist the knife is good, I think so it must be true

Pretty graphs are always correct

[strange python]

I wasn't sold on twist the knife before but now I'm a believer

[balmy condor]

and you accounted for the fact that envenom is not the only finisher we use?

[night delta]

I mean it only cuts 2 sec between empowered envenoms, which isn't much

[violet jackal]

can you make a pretty graph to tell me otherwise 🤔

[night delta]

yes, which is why I assume we don't just refresh the envenom buff before it's over ; and during deathmark we don't refresh rupture either at all, or until it's about to end if there's overhang

[balmy condor]

okay

cool I guess

[night delta]

the interesting thing - which didn't need a graph or a table I guess - is that amp poison makes haste compound into envenom damage - in more ways than providing the energy for it I mean

[whole mason]

Maybe add auto miss into the table?

[night delta]

good friggin point, can't believe I missed that

should cut by 0.83 the attacks / sec stat to account for it

[whole mason]

I did some napkin math myself, the number I got is around 15.4 sec for 15 stacks; I didn't consider builder's contribution, but I'm glad we can get them sooner.

[night delta]

yeah with 0 base haste and out of deathmark I get to around 12 seconds of lull

[whole mason]

Certainly the builders will contribute a lot. 12sec would mean something like every shiv we have an impowered one.

[night delta]

deathmarks also looses 1 sec to the miss mechanic

[night delta]

every other shiv yeah

oh no nvm got it switched

every shiv you're right

[whole mason]

Every other impowered env comfortably sits in shiv:)

[night delta]

also means that we can only ever fit 2 empowered envenoms during deathmark+shiv

at least with crap haste, like we have in .0 patches

[burnt latch]

hi @limber lion i was wonder for s4 9.3 do u have bis item list i can farm from keys? Im like a minmaxer so want the best gear early to do +20 keys and higher

[gusty mirage]

You’re going to want a jaithys

Thanks for coming to my Ted talk

[burnt latch]

for other slot no good item or list not rdy?

where jaither? mechagon?

[viscid spear]

Isn't Jaithys from Kel'thechud?

[burnt latch]

thats the S2 9.1

low lvl gear

[bleak sky]

[burnt latch]

thats an anduin parse

[viscid spear]

I did nothing last week, empty vault

[limber lion]

Yes.

[burnt latch]

link???

[spice spire]

[kindred rapids]

Wordkiller is a staggering 9 DPS upgrade if I socket it

Worth?

[gusty mirage]

Uh well it’s the last week of the tier, you can either hold on to the tokens for hope that they introduce a socket item next season, use the tokens for gold, or yeah

[kindred rapids]

lol yeah it would potentially cost me 2 sockets since since I'd have to take it from my vault

[woeful meteor]

use tokens for genesis motes to get more Mounts

[gusty mirage]

Genesis motes boa when

[echo geyser]

[balmy condor]

[spice spire]

[viscid spear]

Combo breaker!

[pulsar apex]

Heya. My stupid question of the day. This one may be very stupid… I’m used to playing classes that a either rotation CD based or GCD locked (at least partly) in some way. With energy (and combo point) if energy is recharging and CP is not capped (or -1)…. Nothing is “lost” if I don’t press a button NOW? Right? Like it’s a…. closed system?

Hard to describe what I mean.

ie pooling and condensing vs cadence using is … somwhat the same?

All things being equal

(Target moves off/needs to die now/phase change).

I hope I make sense.

[vast loom]

yea in theory as long as you arnt in some sort of CD window IE Dance/Vendetta you shouldnt lose anything if you arnt wasting either energy or CP, but once you get some gear and shit you arnt really pooling much

[balmy condor]

you're correct

energy = combo points

as long as you don't overcap energy

you're free to just wait

[pulsar apex]

Right. So I dinged 60 last week in greens. This week I’m 249 and 4 set. I’ve gone from slow to having a LOT more to do even in that (crappy gear). I just feel not pressing something every 1.5 feels maybe wrong.

Gotcha.

[balmy condor]

sin generally will be slower like that

[pulsar apex]

But in a fun way

[balmy condor]

there's gonna be points out of cooldowns and stuff where you're just waiting

[pulsar apex]

Again that’s hard to describe.

[marble hemlock]

*assa

[balmy condor]

can you use it in a sentence

[vast loom]

yeah assassin is very "fast" in CDs but is very methodical during "filler"

but thats only because of 4p really

[marble hemlock]

http://puu.sh/Jd5O9/ef4bf7f3d7.png

[balmy condor]

an ass a what?

[marble hemlock]

Here's your sentence: The dev designing the spec for Dragonflight calls it Assa, thus proving my point.

[vast loom]

Ass rogue > Sin rogue > Assa Rogue

[balmy condor]

no hablo ingles

[marble hemlock]

yeah

typical

thrusting your fingers into your ears so hard youre getting braindamage from it

[pulsar apex]

I’m finding it fun. Because if you have a button that generates a resource on a X second timer (like Ret for example) you HAVE to press that button. No ifs or buts when 0.5s comes up you press it. But with Rogue resources it’s a bar for you to prioritize how you spend that moment. I know this is REALLY basic stuff for you all but it’s new and fun to me.

[balmy condor]

jokes on you, I don't have a brain anymore, nothing to damage

[marble hemlock]

years of hanging around jez have taken their toll

[vast loom]

yeah the original idea behind Energy classes in general was they are fast but need resources for everything, so if you want you can fit 3 buttons in like 2 gcds of other classes but then we have to "recharge"

[pulsar apex]

I used to main (and be good at) Enh back in MoP and it was all GCD lock CD “what’s next roulette”.

Like playing slot machine

[vast loom]

i like to think of Melee specs in mainly 2 camps, you got Builder Spenders and then you got Whack A Mole lol

[pulsar apex]

That’s it. Whack a mole.

[cerulean nest]

new build today gents?

[oak sky]

Not yet

[devout shadow]

anything changing for S4 in terms of builds or theorycrafting?
what happens to leggos btw? still 291?

[woeful meteor]

no official info yet

[devout shadow]

a bit weird considering we have like 1 week til S4

but fair, thanks!

[astral imp]

How is sin in M+? Im debating switching back to sin from sub for season 4, but if sin is super underwhelming in m+ ill just stick to sub for the time being

[balmy condor]

currently not great

it does good single target

but with sub getting dagger back in season 4 I'm not entirely sure sin has a real leg to stand on

[astral imp]

ah 😦 well, i hope sin will return to its former glory in the upcomming expansion

[vestal wren]

but its also a "for fun" season, so it isn't that bad.

i think the current outlaw hype could also make sub less appealing

[dull cloak]

so it's not just me on the outlaw feeling much stronger than sub

[vestal wren]

outlaw is better on cleave fights, so if you raid you will have fights sub feels worse because it atcually is

outlaw does similar levels on single target

sin does similar levels of single target

both offer better performance on specific fights, so they should feel better

[dull cloak]

feels like the only place sub performs somewhat close is huge pulls or boss damage funnel

[vestal wren]

i think all 3 are fairly close on most fights

so it rly comes down to the bad fights for the spec

[desert orchid]

so what's the trick to get dps up for m+ as sin? I gave it a try, and seems like I was messing something up fundamentally. Keep in mind, I sat this tier out, so still not used to the set bonuses and that either

I'd like to get sin to work descent, but I had to be messing something up

although could be just the gear affects my sin spec more than it does my sub, I do have some pretty lower ilvl weapons and bad trinkets

[balmy condor]

you play either of the other specs or accept defeat and single target things for 40 minutes every dungeon

[desert orchid]

ah, so my problem was trying to aoe heh

[balmy condor]

correct

sin aoe currently is CT

and

that's it

[desert orchid]

still FoK spam to build cp's? Or is that even worth it?

[balmy condor]

fok replaces mut on 3 or more targets

[desert orchid]

so 3x garrote, make sure snd is up, get a rupture up and a ct and then focus on the single target burn for the vendetta target basically. And during vendetta, you don't really bother envenom, it's just keep up garrote, ct, and rupture?

[balmy condor]

yeah that's pretty much it

there's a little more nuance

but it's not like you're missing 15% damage

[desert orchid]

and it's keep the CT up on the vendetta target too right? Not just wait for it to drop off them all

[balmy condor]

yep

[desert orchid]

well, my tank totally fubars pulls. I never get to stealth on my rogue, but he never chains when I'm on a class that needs the chain pulls heh

[balmy condor]

that's fine

chain pulling isn't actually that much of a loss

[desert orchid]

not getting a stealth x3 garrote up isn;t?

[balmy condor]

getting 0 restealths the whole dungeon is like 2.5%

[desert orchid]

was probably missing some shivs there too, which is probably big

[cerulean nest]

wheres this new build bruh

[desert orchid]

felt like the energy regen wasn't what it used to be too

[strange python]

ECKS DEE

First sigil and first rygelon dagger I've seen all tier

Both in my vault, and we're on break this week

[jaunty crystal]

Moved some legendaries around and gained 150 dps. Good feeling after a bad vault 😛

[desert orchid]

there are times I despise the vault, 4 weeks in a row of nothing but necklaces and rings

[jaunty crystal]

I’ve had the ryg ring two weeks in a row. Give me any other 285 item pls.

[bold drum]

[ebon notch]

POG

venomous wounds has moved up also

[bold drum]

kingsbane over ttb every day of the week, great change

[sharp falcon]

feedback on changes is welcome ofc

[ebon notch]

love u

is that feedback

[sharp falcon]

only a bit of stuff has changed from [NYI] in this particular build, next week's build will have quite a bit more working --- not everything, but a lot more

quite a few tree changes this round tho

[bold drum]

bone spike

[dawn merlin]

tree is looking pog

[bold drum]

no fucking way

[copper hazel]

fuck YES

[bold drum]

idk i must be on some weird shit dreaming or sth this looks unreal

[drifting light]

Boyyyyyyyy

[ebon notch]

SBS ShS and kingsbane

[dawn merlin]

ye I mean, this is superb

[bold drum]

assa kinda looking very very good on paper rn

[dawn merlin]

naturally people will find tweaks to be made but it's awsome to see it evolve

[bold drum]

ye im just glad that our feedback is being worked into the tree even if numbers change

[dawn merlin]

exactly

[bleak sky]

AYO

i am COOM

[ebon notch]

seal fate

100% chance

@sharp falcon thats different from before right

[gusty mirage]

everyone talking about kingsbane

and sbs

y'all high af

[ebon notch]

we said that already

[gusty mirage]

shut up yellow name

[bleak sky]

listen I have no emotional attachment to this shit

[gusty mirage]

no one asked you

[ebon notch]

😦

[gusty mirage]

I wish you'd have emotional attachment to me

[bleak sky]

I do

[gusty mirage]

[sharp falcon]

I don't recall any changes to Seal Fate

[ebon notch]

ok cool

sry for the ping

[sharp falcon]

yeah i was mad

[gusty mirage]

#outlaw stop bothering our new friend

[ebon notch]

wtf

[strange python]

Plz god no

[gusty mirage]

[ebon notch]

leave me alone 😦

[fleet anchor]

lol I dunno, I'm actually more excited about Kingsbane because I've been begging for them to make it core since BfA alpha 😛

[toxic locust]

KINGSBANE'S BAACK

[bleak sky]

you don't have to play it, I'm happy to see it sticking around

[gusty mirage]

I'm actually giga excited about the right side of the tree

[strange python]

I mean saying "you don't have to play it" is kinda bullshit if it's ever bis

[gusty mirage]

we might not be useless in m+

[fleet anchor]

Really like the updated trees in general. Realz killing it.

[balmy condor]

I was literally spell checking my impressions article

5 minutes ago

[gusty mirage]

[balmy condor]

I mean

[ebon notch]

is dragon-tempered blades mandatory now?

cause of kingsbane?

[balmy condor]

thanks for the updated tree

but also god damnit man

[sharp falcon]

oh no

[ebon notch]

sry i mean

is it a good choice

[sudden brook]

You fuckers stole my bonespike

[ebon notch]

with kingsbane

[sudden brook]

[bleak sky]

man chill

holy

[sharp falcon]

show me your spec

[ebon notch]

ur gonna bully me again

[toxic locust]

you can't get dragon blades and kingsbane at the same time

[bleak sky]

did you play it takes two or no

[toxic locust]

it's impossible i tried

don't worry realz

[strange python]

One reply is "chill" lo

[ebon notch]

oh you cant lmao

i hadnt even tried

[sharp falcon]

An unfortunate reality of offering Kingsbane as a gameplay choice, means denying having it at the same time as DTB because it'd be the only way to do it

[ebon notch]

i made realz sweat for a second

[hollow river]

👆L

[sharp falcon]

it was more like, "oh no, he doesn't know"

And I didn't want to shatter your dreams

[ebon notch]

yeah yeah

nice save bud

im onto you

[bleak sky]

give him a pencil and a piece of paper

[ebon notch]

ill give you this

[copper hazel]

you mean crayon surely

[hollow river]

sick changes

[toxic locust]

i'm more excited for the rogue tree updates than the mage and paladin trees

wtf

[bold drum]

making an assa build might turn out quite hard since all the capstones and the abilities just before them are quite attractive

[strange python]

Ultimately DTB and Kingsbane will come down to tuning, and carnage will be for aoe

[hollow river]

same same

honestly

[bold drum]

ye thats what i thought aswell, mainly focus on middle and left for st/raid and carnage for m+ and heavy cleave

[bold drum]

other classes exist

[strange python]

Biggest problem with Kingsbane seems to be the two talents leading into it

[balmy condor]

what

[bleak sky]

zoldycks good

ttb is nerfed and mandatory now to get kingsbane

[strange python]

I meant ttb being two above

[bold drum]

zoldycks is sick with it leading into kingsbane

[bleak sky]

ttb was 500% right? I'm not crazy?

[bold drum]

correct

[lilac haven]

dont we get 2 shiv charges now as well

[gusty mirage]

your bonespike?

[ebon notch]

bro im glad we have execute now

finally

[gusty mirage]

go get carpal tunnel playing kyrian

[toxic locust]

2 shiv charges, kingsbane and SBS

[bleak sky]

where's the second charge?

OH

I'm dumb don't mind me

didn't even look at the rogue tree

[night delta]

oh they also severely buffed poison bomb to work with envenom

[balmy condor]

I'm

so defeated

[drifting light]

Is @sharp falcon gone? Any plans to look into exsanguinate?

[bleak sky]

why is that sweet child

[balmy condor]

because my impressions article can go straight into the bin now

I spent all day

[bleak sky]

mix up the words a little bit

sprinkle "shrouded suffocation kingsbane" for the SEO

and you're golden

[balmy condor]

no it's just fundamentally different now

the new tree fixes like 15 different problems

that I talked about

[bleak sky]

but now it's SECOND impressions

not the same thing

[balmy condor]

I gotta find new things to talk about

[bleak sky]

[sharp falcon]

what about it do you think needs to be 'looked into'? Is this one of those, "I don't want to be confrontational but i have a strong opinion" type of questions? E.g. "Have you ever considered letting Assassin have +100% increased damage at all times?" -- You won't hurt my feelings if you tell me the problem you see and what you think should be done about it, as with the example given, "I think Assassin should have +100% increased damage at all times"

[balmy condor]

new things to complain about

[bold drum]

new things to complain about a almost perfect tree

[balmy condor]

It's literally my job

[sharp falcon]

oh I'll start

[balmy condor]

I'm paid to criticize the tree

yes it's really good

I agree

that makes it difficult for me

[bold drum]

ttb not doing 10000x increased dmg smh

[sharp falcon]

"Assassination still looks like it will be the worst for most M+ dungeons. How do you plan to FIX this PROBLEM? Specs cannot be different, they must all be equal in all situations, SMH"

am i doing it right

[bleak sky]

yes

keep going

[balmy condor]

I can't write 3000 words of "it's good"

[toxic locust]

sounds like the average forum poster

[copper hazel]

ask how the WL class writers did it for SL

[oak sky]

Kingsbane

[night delta]

now that's a dare

[bleak sky]

THOUGH 1.5min cds in dungeons are shitty to play around right now sin is looking pretty decent for m+ ceteris paribus

[balmy condor]

you're right, realz pls nerf to 2 minute cooldown

[sharp falcon]

like, it's kind of outside what this particular discord audience cares about, but I also hope there's like, "Dopest Assassination Questing Spec!" builds and videos out there in the community, there's content in the game that isn't literally Patchwerk

[bleak sky]

shut your whore mouth, buff to 1 min

[sharp falcon]

we'll see how it plays out

it shouldn't be up every pack

[bleak sky]

fair

you're not wrong I'm just madge

planning cds is good, having them up for every pack is brainless gameplay

[true pelican]

if nerfing to 2 min would let it work with everything i would support

[night delta]

Now it'll be down to tuning if the choice between Kingsbane and DTB is meaningful or a no-brainer

both sound exciting in their own way

[true pelican]

although the desync with deathmark would be pretty weird

[drifting light]

Ty and sorry for the ping. Exsang been discussed here recently, I think it just makes us do more work for not enough payback, having to reapply bleeds faster, less globals for envenoms. Suggestions included giving rogue some buff while the faster bleeds tick. Been a cool concept since Legion, but with very little use when undertunned, so giving it some function/interaction could make it more appealing.

[sour wraith]

thistle tea good now 100 energy all the time

[sharp falcon]

Exsang has always been hit-or-miss depending on the player. If that continues to be the case, I think that's fine.

[balmy condor]

that's the same tooltip

[coarse tusk]

yo is tricks supposed to increase your target's damage now?

[gray warren]

KingsBANE YOUHOUUUUU

[sour wraith]

0.06 sec recharge

[gusty kestrel]

whys that

[night delta]

I see exsang as not really a DPS option, rather a pseudo-utility one

[sharp falcon]

LOL we didn't change anything about Tea yet, that's funny

[balmy condor]

oh

[night delta]

a short CD soft damage steroid

[elfin valley]

he said yet

[night delta]

that doesn't affect overall DPS

[elfin valley]

[ebon notch]

more dps cds

[balmy condor]

wait

realz no not like this

[toxic locust]

thick as thieves is a pvp talent

lol

[balmy condor]

so no tricks dps in pve

yes?

[sharp falcon]

no

[toxic locust]

yes

[sharp falcon]

or rather

[bleak sky]

minute you have it up for every pack almost, 1.5 min you get them either late in the pack or somewhere before the next next pack

[sharp falcon]

yes, it's a pvp talent and no it does not work in pve

[bleak sky]

but that may just be me

[balmy condor]

okay, I will continue to search for things I can complain about then, I haven't found anything yet and it's concerning

[sudden brook]

r u guys dumb

it says "thick as thieves"

[gusty kestrel]

what if packs are 45second intervals

[sudden brook]

thats the pvp talent

[night delta]

I really like incorporation of poison bomb into evenom as a buff for the finisher

[sudden brook]

i expect better from this channel

[gusty kestrel]

THANKS GUY SOMEONE SAID THAT

BABOON

[night delta]

with the highly increased proc rate

[copper hazel]

damn it, i was looking forward to tricking the WL in raid after he also gets PI, etc then watch him die to aggro

[sharp falcon]

it's a perfect pvp talent, threat is irrelevant in pvp and it gives a fun thematic way to make a useless button into a useful one, for those who want that. Yeah, not a pve thing

[bleak sky]

that's why i had ceteris paribus

[sudden brook]

how do u guys get baited by that its a pvp talent

[midnight mist]

whats this

[ebon notch]

guy we already knew that

[sour wraith]

guy in assassin channel? 🤔

[sharp falcon]

tricks has plenty of pve identity already, it's about threat

[ebon notch]

stop being mad you dont have sbs

[sudden brook]

im here to laugh at you guys and thats it

[balmy condor]

it was rupture+envenom at 4%, now it's envenom at 5%

[regal cape]

Kingsbane!!!!

[balmy condor]

how is that highly increased

[night delta]

5% per combo point

[balmy condor]

this was old poison bomb

it's 1%

[night delta]

oh nvm I was making maths wrong in my head

[toxic locust]

its a 25% increase

[fallen plover]

ahh all these new things youve added realz you might be the most based class dev sir, you actually listen

[lilac haven]

does the 2 point increase damage or % chance

[ebon notch]

@balmy condor write an article on ER sin build

thatll take you a few days

[sharp falcon]

it was 20% chance envenom/rupture when spending 5combo for 1pt. Now it's 50% chance envenom only when spending 5 combo for 2pts

[grim tangle]

venomous wounds doesn't work on internal bleeding anymore? wtf big nerf

[night delta]

ah yes, my math wasn't wrong I just forgot it went to 2 points

so nvm the nvm, yeah, exciting change

[sour wraith]

how about venom rush blocking flying daggers

[fleet anchor]

Mostly the problem with Exsanguinate is that it doesn't actually generate any damage on its own at all. Only indirectly via snapshotting (super unintuitive and usually requires access to haste On Use effects) or through Venomous Wounds. It's almost always a trap ability and only really makes sense in hyper specific situations that require a lot of conditions. It's maybe worth leaving for those edge cases but you'd kinda need to be willing to accept that there is likely a strong possibility nobody will ever take the talent for any good reason any time in the foreseeable future.

[balmy condor]

it doesn't though

[toxic locust]

it makes your dots go brr

deathmark gives you double dots

double brr

[balmy condor]

does it

[sour wraith]

yea

[balmy condor]

oh it does now

[fallen plover]

is there a new updated tree to go along with these changes?

[tidal gorge]

/doesn't come into this discord for like 2 weeks
/comes in and Koji is still talking about exsang

[drifting light]

Ty sir

[oak sky]

Wait yo

[fleet anchor]

Just good timing 😄

[sharp falcon]

oh wowhead doesnt have new icons yet?

[bleak sky]

no sir

[oak sky]

Realz if ur here i love that you moved ttb to not be a capstone ur a real one

[sharp falcon]

let me know if u like deathmark icon when u see it

[fleet anchor]

Exsang is probably the mechanic I've spent the least amount of productive time on since Legion since it's a huge amount of work and has been a DPS loss like 99% of the time 🤣

[true pelican]

what does the new lethal dose tooltip mean?

[ebon notch]

when is it available

[true pelican]

oh I see instead of all damage being increased

[sharp falcon]

the animation 'draws' that same thing into your target // in front of your target, someone should make a gif from the alpha

[true pelican]

it's the bleed/poisons being increased

[zenith sable]

quadruple brr

[night delta]

clearer wording and a few rough edges polished

[gusty kestrel]

exactly what it says

[fleet anchor]

It is remotely possible that it could work decently with Kingsbane.

[gray warren]

looks like i'll play assassin

[night delta]

basically less things give buff, and the buff affects less things

[sharp falcon]

oh yeah lethal dose much less lethal now, no one complaining, heh GOTEM

[fleet anchor]

But I think the easiest way to "fix" Exsang would be to add some "And deal 10% more damage" text or something

[toxic locust]

all the complainers were given a lethal dose

[drifting light]

The concept is cool, but it needs some mechanical oopmh. Making u have to reapply bleeds again for little dps gain (if any), what’s the point?

[slim hedge]

Big kingsbane dude

[balmy condor]

I actually can't complain except tiny toxic still existing but it's a 1 pointer travel to kingsbane so even that's fine

what the hell man

[south umbra]

kingsbane is back, poggers

[grim canopy]

foreal?

[ruby oar]

Hugeeee shroud of suffocation

[toxic locust]

sbs and kingsbane yea

[grim canopy]

omg

[balmy condor]

sbs kingsbane and shrouded

[grim canopy]

thats all i wanted

[toxic locust]

and shrouded

and 2 charges of shiv

[night delta]

shrouded gonna be lit on AoE

[subtle kiln]

@sharp falcon thanks for listening to our feedback.

[grim canopy]

wtf shrouded + carnage = ?

[night delta]

BfA sin M+ is almost back

[sour wraith]

carnage is capped at 8 targets now though

[misty holly]

I'm glad Lethal Dose still looks effective, and has the bleed/poison synergy without being so OP. And omg SBS back makes me so happy. ❤️ Realz

[drowsy musk]

Too bad you can't have Kingsbane and Dragon-Tempered Blades Sadge

[balmy condor]

that was the whole point

of making pb 2 points

[kindred rapids]

I guess if we have nothing to complain about there's always target caps :pepeclown-1:

[balmy condor]

to lock that out

[upbeat tinsel]

https://i.imgur.com/nU1Ov4h.png

[toxic locust]

it does look sick

[night delta]

I'm worried though that early in the expansion the energy starve will be so bad Dashing scoundrel will be too good to pass

[grim canopy]

hmm deathmark and kingsbane

[night delta]

and that we'll be pigeonholed into not taking Kingsbane

[white orchid]

Nerf to Icarnage? That hurts

[kindred rapids]

That's quite a hypothetical

[sour wraith]

you can still get KB and 2 points into DS

[balmy condor]

carnage went from reduced past 8 to hard capped 8

[sour wraith]

and you only need the 1st point for the energy

[balmy condor]

I don't think it's that bad

[night delta]

yes but that means passing up on a lot of exciting things on the sides

[balmy condor]

what are you gonna do with more than 16 bleeds out

overcap another 70000000000 energy?

[sour wraith]

crimson tempest spam harder >:)

[oak sky]

Dude literally im not even mad at ttb existing anymore

[kindred rapids]

We need a mega energy dump

[white orchid]

Wasn’t it more about the damage

[night delta]

good point though

[kindred rapids]

100 energy spender

[night delta]

well that doesn't work in single-damage though

[gusty kestrel]

my strat

has been deleted...

[copper hazel]

reworked exang: "Spend 100 energy to empower all bleeds within 8 yards to tick 100% faster"

[balmy condor]

damage wise it went from reduced after 8 to capped at 8, so idk, it's kinda whatever

[gusty kestrel]

but my scent value...

[true pelican]

I forgot what the class tree looked like, did we gain some connectivity at the top?

[balmy condor]

yah sure, hidden tisu tech once you hit 20 bleeds out at a time you skyrocket to the moon for sure

[balmy condor]

yes

[gusty kestrel]

bro imagine de other side big pull into dealer

carnage like 30 mobs

sepsis deathmark exsang

[fleet whale]

yes kingsbane is back!

[balmy condor]

you still do that

[fleet whale]

also finally ambush is on venom rush

[balmy condor]

it's still value

[gusty kestrel]

but I dont get 30 mob scent value anymore...

dealer will survive...

[copper hazel]

no deal for you then tisu

[fleet whale]

ambush build for Sin inc?

[night delta]

justifying taking Blindside is always fine in my eyes

mixing up gameplay

[ebon notch]

Bruh with that rupture agi talent we get prio damage

Poggers

[tidal gorge]

Actual builds. These changes excite me

[obtuse robin]

OMG SS

[upbeat tinsel]

not good at editing stuff

https://i.imgur.com/8PTtGn0.mp4

[obtuse robin]

sorry caps

[upbeat tinsel]

that's deathmark

[sour wraith]

oh thats sweet

[ebon notch]

That's a vibe

[fleet whale]

these are some really good changes

Realz is a real one

[gusty kestrel]

I really dont want to take TTB tho

[fleet whale]

that's for sure

[drifting light]

Sick

[gusty kestrel]

can we delete

[slim hedge]

Presuming the kingsbane snapshotting will be the ST go to

[obtuse robin]

dam ss with dmg increase to

[balmy condor]

kingsbane SNAPSHOTTING?

[obtuse robin]

lewts goo

[balmy condor]

snapshotting to what

[drifting light]

The moon

[night delta]

shiv ?

I mean, WRONG

but maybe they thought that

[fleet whale]

wait are we supposed to have 2 charges of shiv now?

or is that a mistake

[hollow river]

bro that animation is GIGA poggers

[balmy condor]

people deadass just saying snapshot like it'll triple the dps of whatever they're talking about

[balmy condor]

yes

[gray warren]

please make it 2 shiv stack

[fleet whale]

hmm interesting

[obtuse robin]

what used to be in nerves talent again i forget

[gray warren]

Omg that spec is everything i dreamt for since legion

[night delta]

Deathmark does look sleek

[toxic locust]

it's two shiv charges

ye

[night delta]

oh wow I didn't even see that

makes sense that shiv returns to the class tree

would be bizarre to deprive other specs of their de-rage

[obtuse robin]

garrote baseline nice

[dense herald]

Bro shrouded suffocation back?

[night delta]

Sub bleed build incoming

[obtuse robin]

yea and vm is now 7 energy

[grim tangle]

sub and outlaw do not get garrote

[bleak sky]

snapshot mutilates on yod fr

[dense herald]

Ooooft the possible return of exang?

[obtuse robin]

what makes u say that where on the sin tree is garrote

[fleet whale]

and why does PB have 2 ranks?

[warm parcel]

so you cant have 2 capstones

[toxic locust]

garrote is sin only, realz said so

was kinda looking forward to it for sub but it's understandable

[lilac haven]

2 point pb makes it 50% chance for pb on envenom

[drifting light]

50% chace at 5 combo points

[obtuse robin]

better then adding talents to make it better for law and sub i guess

[night delta]

yeah, sounds nice, basically 2,5 times the procrate than before, but only on envenoms

[warm parcel]

ye but zoldyck and PB being multiple points is literally to prevent 2 capstones

so you cant double down on KB and 2 lethals

[fleet whale]

yeah KB with two lethals