outlaw

[south crypt]

All 3 rogue specs are pretty good. You won't go wrong with either tbh.

[inland acorn]

pin explains that FB is potentially very slightly worse (~1%)

at least for m+

[south crypt]

Simming for both specs now, assuming that the talents on wowhead for fate and tricks are up to date (?)

[inland acorn]

should be

[frozen quest]

U don’t play fatebound cause it has worse ST Boss dmg u still need Boss dmg in m+

[south crypt]

Dslice

[mighty hare]

i just tried running sims on my own char, both single target and dungeonslice is 3k difference

[south crypt]

Fate is much more comfortable to play imo, less buttons and easier to maintain.

[inland acorn]

as per pin:
In M+, Fatebound is closer, potentially within 1% overall. I believe this is because of Fatebound's performance when Thistle Tea has run dry. Fatebound is way more comfortable with resources so it's perfectly acceptable to use it again. Overall aside, Trickster is still going to give you more of a boost during the early AR/Lusted pulls and has perma Tricks so you might swap between both to decide what you like.

[frozen quest]

Still less Boss - only good people pls trickster

[wide heath]

ez I guess

[unkempt dew]

Haha 18 min is the best i can do

[weary goblet]

yeah that's more than 1%

[inland acorn]

it's because dslice is too short for tea to matter that much

you would get more accurate difference with droute

[south crypt]

Might be, if you play perfectly. Considering rotational errors for humans i would asume it's about ~1 %

[weary goblet]

on average, people definitely make more mistakes on trickster i feel like

[south crypt]

Yes, and by that logic fate would be the "safer pick"

[weary goblet]

especially with muscle memory to be ok to finish at 5cp

[quiet root]

i've played trickster enough now that going back to fatebound will result in me building at 5cp when i'm supposed to dispatch

[sonic pawn]

anyone else recently getting casts on party frames from party members like this ?

[arctic hollow]

Never noticed them

Is this SUF ? it has an option for party cast bars

[sonic pawn]

no dont use SUF

[inland acorn]

that looks like default ui

[sonic pawn]

no idea what is causing it only just started

[inland acorn]

so look in options

you can try typing in search bar "cast" or "party" and see if you can find option

or look in edit mode, when you click on party frames

[sonic pawn]

yeah i dunno only just started recently aswell

[south crypt]

As trick, When getting refund on BTE at 5cp do you send or build to 7CP then sending BTE?

[inland acorn]

build to 6+

[unkempt dew]

Most common answer

[sonic pawn]

@inland acorn figured it out was Better blizzard frames > party cast bars was turned on

[glass shard]

why does it have to have mastery

eww

[tulip warren]

Someone smarter than me that have an up to date fatebound talent tree that you should use for m+? I'm to stupid xD

[unkempt dew]

You can always check wowhead right?

[inland acorn]

#outlaw-faq builds section

[wintry solar]

Does D4 have a trial or demo?

[mighty hare]

dont think so

[wintry solar]

Rats, ty

[glass shard]

d4 bad

[wintry solar]

I'll make that judgement myself

[inland acorn]

No

He made it for you

[glass shard]

i am the arbiter of deciding which arpgs are good thank you .......

d4 bad .

poe good .

poe 2 also bad .

[mighty hare]

aye! expect PoE 2 is getting better 🥹

[glass shard]

real

i cant wait to play it in 4 years

[wintry solar]

https://tenor.com/view/how-do-we-tell-him-how-do-we-kill-him-kill-mr-krabs-spongebob-gif-16173908663927160281

[inland acorn]

[glass shard]

??

https://gifconvert.vxtwitter.com/convert.avif?url=https://video.twimg.com/tweet_video/HHSoyN_W4AAj4ik.mp4

[wintry solar]

[glass shard]

every rogue i see is assa

:/

[inland acorn]

[wintry solar]

What's up with that

[glass shard]

1 keybind and 1 click away from the most fun u can have in wow

(talents -> respec outlaw)

[wintry solar]

Escape->Quit Game

Oh

[glass shard]

oh

oh megalul

[inland acorn]

alt f4 is faster

[wintry solar]

Bro min maxed quitting wow

[glass shard]

real ones type /quit

[inland acorn]

real ones

press power button on your pc case

[wintry solar]

/camp

[inland acorn]

[wintry solar]

Gamers wait until they cut off the power from not paying the bill

[inland acorn]

real gamers don't wait, because their power got cut off years ago

also real God gamers, time their sub expiration so it happens mid-raid on kill pull

[wintry solar]

People think my grass is tall because I'm disabled or don't have a mower but they don't understand that I have to farm gilded crests

[inland acorn]

real & true

[glass shard]

still disabled

[inland acorn]

aren't we all

for playing outlaw, even with all it's lows

[wintry solar]

Killing WoW would help me in .ore ways than 1 tbh

Financially, mentally, physically

Etc

[inland acorn]

Don't forget more space on your SSD

[wintry solar]

True

More space for pirated games

[inland acorn]

[wintry solar]

Me looking through all my files to find a abandonware from 30 years ago

[agile orchid]

I tried a fatebound key, the difference in gameplay is night and day

fatebound feels so much smoother to play

[glass shard]

I GOT AN INVITEEE

[glass shard]

is it the same tree as before

[opal badger]

Hero siege is good

[agile orchid]

I don't think so

I'm using the build from faq

[inland acorn]

it's same except - sleight +ace

[agile orchid]

also this one uses prep

[inland acorn]

All builds used them before and now too

Its just you could drop it for like 3-4% loss if you really didn't want to bother with it

[glass shard]

ty

[agile orchid]

oh, I was checking an old build on wowhead yesterday and it wasn't using prep

[inland acorn]

[glass shard]

i only play prep in raid

i cba

[agile orchid]

it's not too bad

[inland acorn]

Maybe Guy didn't update builds or something

[agile orchid]

he did update them last night

I checked this morning and the builds are correct now

[glass shard]

my iq just too low to care to learn

[inland acorn]

there's not much to learn

you basically slam it on cd in m+

[fickle echo]

just press it on cd yeah

[inland acorn]

as long as your AR is not on cd shorter than like

40-60s

[agile orchid]

may I introduce you to this addon

https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/rogueflow

[glass shard]

this was too vibe coded for me to wanna put it on mycomputer tbh xd

[agile orchid]

it's pretty good

[inland acorn]

Still works better, than Blizzards vibecode

[glass shard]

gonna have to get used to no perma tricks again for a bit

thats fa sho

[agile orchid]

oh yeah I almost killed myself a few times

because I am used to perma tricks

[glass shard]

god bless cheat death lmao

[inland acorn]

I will keep saying it until they will change it
1h tricks exclusive to trickster is a crime

[glass shard]

real\

[agile orchid]

indeed

[glass shard]

zac make a post plz

[inland acorn]

It should be in class tree

[glass shard]

baseline u mean

[inland acorn]

Think they will rather move it to class tree than make it baseline

Like tricks should be baseline and 1h could easly replace old talent slot

though it could probably fuck with talent for PvP which increases friendly target dmg when tricks are on them

[cursive swallow]

Hey guys, I just got the mythic plume from a chest. Is it actually BiS for m+ ? Or sim bait ? Cuz sim +2200 than solarflare

[inland acorn]

it is BiS

[spare dome]

Surely they have the technology to seperate the talents from pvp

I would expect it from multi dollar company

[inland acorn]

I mean, they could also just tune the PvP talent lower, if perma uptime

[cursive swallow]

Im afraid about sim bait

[inland acorn]

from 15% to like 5%

Which wouldn't be that huge deal then

[agile orchid]

just remove the pvp talent

[inland acorn]

And then also you have a choice of 5% dmg vs 30% dmg/heal reduction after blind/sap

[inland acorn]

It's not

Plume is very strong

It's basically better version of solarflare

[cursive swallow]

Ok thanks 👌

[wintry solar]

They're separate spell IDs I'm pretty sure

[inland acorn]

yeah, true just checked

[spare dome]

or you know, when you take the talent, tricks duration decreases to current duration

[wintry solar]

You don't have to do anything to it

[inland acorn]

but

[wintry solar]

Booty?

[spare dome]

blizzard has to

[inland acorn]

[wintry solar]

Arrr

[spare dome]

and thats the problem

so it already is 1hr with trickster?

[wintry solar]

Tooltip bug

[inland acorn]

Idk

I don't PvP

[spare dome]

who does

[inland acorn]

Tooltips might lie

[wintry solar]

Me

[spare dome]

am i right

[inland acorn]

It does have different spellId like Popo said though

[wintry solar]

Yeah there's really no reason to not have 1hr tricks in the OUTLAW tree

(biased)

[inland acorn]

just replace tricks node in class tree

idk why normal tricks are not baseline

[wintry solar]

Probably to not have as many filler talents

[still matrix]

Have many gone back to fatebound?

how does it feeel

[inland acorn]

Smoother than trickster

More engaging with min-maxing SS and PS

[still matrix]

rlly ok i guess with no cloud cover

People playing 1 or 2 ace?

[inland acorn]

2 ace in every build

[still matrix]

rlly ok

over loaded?

sleight*

[inland acorn]

sleight

ye

[still matrix]

yeye soz said loaded because of icon

[inland acorn]

though

trickster can drop acrobatic strikes instead

[still matrix]

gonna sim it to

[inland acorn]

and keep sleight

[still matrix]

wonder if ill go Fatebound for Paladins then

[inland acorn]

I doubt

Raid favours trickster more

Though whichever you play, it's gonna suck anyways

Because outlaw on paladins just feels bad

[still matrix]

idk i do pretty well

doesnt feel to bad

imo

[river wing]

1 ace is no longer viable

[still matrix]

unless bad rolls

even in trickster?

[river wing]

bc it's now proc chance rather than points on reset

[still matrix]

think i ran 2 ace trickster anyway

tbh

[glass shard]

18 skyreach

on fateabound

revert the nerfs bro

i do NOTHINGGGG

[river wing]

i.e.
old 1pt ace - you have to build after reset but you had to build anyway, still 5% chance per CP to proc it
new 1pt ace - you only have 3% to proc it, but you still have to build on reset

[glass shard]

(nerf is -1k dps)

[river wing]

broski it's like a 1k loss

[glass shard]

i know i just wanted to post being top dmg :)

its a rarity for me !

[still matrix]

that also looked like a slow dung

[glass shard]

not sure what metric would be slow other than completion time so thats all i can give u

it was crazy tho

we got to pack after 1st boss

and i had a whole tea still

[inland acorn]

[still matrix]

might have to go trickster just for perma tricks wtf...

[opal badger]

Big

[hardy wigeon]

You lot simming dslice to see the difference between fb and trickster or?

[hoary wave]

some guys did, its like 3k diff

give or take

[still matrix]

yer mine was like 1.4k dps loss going FB

[unkempt dew]

Are we havinfg fun?

[wintry solar]

Ye

[still matrix]

yer for me the difference is very negligible:

[cedar bone]

we keep same stats same talents (trickster) right?

[formal knot]

yep but now you can also play fatebound if you want to

[cedar bone]

kekw

stop this ragebait 😛

[unkempt swift]

What about fb?

[wide heath]

guys is deadly pursuit viable in raids and m + ?

[errant fractal]

so, is the last pinned accurate, did blizzard actually push those numbers or did they randomly lie about some interaction/number/effect?

[unkempt dew]

You can use it but its not that great

[novel moth]

I've never seen rolls of bones as bad as today's.

[silk obsidian]

!ui

[ornate heath]

Resources:

• ArcUI / BetterCDM - common suites for buff/cd customization
• WangBar - displays CPs/energy, customize colors per point, faster than Sensei
• MSUF - recommendation for unit frames
• Platynator - recommendation for nameplates (Jundies Profile)
  Misc:
• Clickable Raid Buffs - for poisons
• WilduTools - random QoL like melee range indicator, track cursor
• Mute Cold Blood sound - if we ever go back to this talent

[fervent garden]

I switched back to Trick pretty quickly after checking numbers.

[tender surge]

only playing m+, what should i use my rolls on? skyreach where my only upgrade is the trinket or pos where anything I can still roll is bis?

[fervent garden]

i rolled Saron last week, gonna spend in Skyreach this week. i think concensus is those two spots

beside M raid if possible

[gaunt phoenix]

Yeah the tuning seems correctly 9%, well 8.9% 😛

[river wing]

after pit it's highly dependent on what you're chasing tbh

[marsh raft]

H-Alnseer trinket if you're NOT going to run Myth isn't awful either iirc (someone correct me if thats wrong please!).

pretty sure even at heroic that trink beats a lot of myth ones

[errant fractal]

very cool, thank you

[river wing]

it does

hero alnseer beats everything else in myth I think

[hollow tartan]

What is the next best thing after using all your bonus roles on pit and your guild handing you myth track gaze?

[gaunt phoenix]

helmet from seat?

main hand from nexus point?

mayb

[hollow tartan]

Gonna have to be main hand then cuz i got helmet from vault

[gaunt phoenix]

should see if droptimize catches something

[hollow tartan]

Mostly just cata hands for measly .5% increase

[river wing]

free beer for your guild friends

[river wing]

that's myth gear life, it's all gonna be a sub 1% increase outside of bad trinkets being exchanged for good trinkets

[hollow tartan]

They deserve more tbh

Yeah min/maxing and one can only imagine with how high and low the damage can vary on outlaw

[blissful idol]

hands are mythic and can be upgraded, waist as well, legs as well, and got krick's dagger as well 285. I also got a socket ready to send and 2 void cores. Do i try to loot seat helm send socket there and then craft hc cloak or feet to swap the embellishment from crafted dagger or is there a better solution?

any helpers in the chat

[river wing]

helm is the best stat value per slot, the best move is to replace it with the bis helm if you get lucky with seat

[gaunt phoenix]

it seems like whatever you do wont be significantly different than other choices https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/esxo5eGB5vpdRdgmt9nEMf

i would keep rolling pit for cloak and wrists

the helm from seat is unlikely

the path of least resistance is probably roll pit and craft helm

[river wing]

yeah seat has like 10 items

(unfortunately)

[gaunt phoenix]

eventually you replace crafted helm

oh well

[blissful idol]

i got mythic neck 2 times with rolls from pit

do i open a ticket

or ai will answer

[thorn parrot]

After seeing how the roll system looked I crafted my helm with 0 regrets. Highly recommend to @blissful idol

[gaunt phoenix]

well on the first day, the loot pool didnt save

[blissful idol]

it was after the fix

if that counts

2nd week

[gaunt phoenix]

i doubt they would do anything even if it really was bugged again

[mighty pivot]

rolls are pretty cursed for me because I already have neck and bracers from raid so pit is less attractive to roll in. surely the 10% chance to get helm 1st in seat is sensible

[blissful idol]

well i will go pit now use my 2 rolls

farm my crests and then plan accordingly

with my luck i will have outlaw loot spec and roll dagger again so

[inner meadow]

Do we still play loaded dice > acro strikes?

[river wing]

LD is mandatory
do you mean Sleight of Hand?

[inner meadow]

yea

my bad

[river wing]

Sleight is technically like 0.3% worse than Acro, like 300-400 dps
but honestly it feels so much better over long periods of time

that I would easily ditch acro over it

[inland acorn]

Sleight for better variance, acro for miniscule dmg increase

Choose your poison

[inner meadow]

i've been playing sleight cause it's nice

but just wanted to maek sure my build was up to date so took the wowhead build

and it's using acro

over sleight

so just wanted to make sure

[inland acorn]

Maybe Guy forgot to update

Or wants to avoid weirdos who will come like "BUT ACRO SIMS HIGHER, WHY ITS NOT RECOMMENDED"

But if in doubt, always follow holy bible of #outlaw-faq

[unkempt dew]

In run what Zac runs haha

[fathom whale]

im giving up on this class, it makes me sad

[river wing]

idk
the day I give up on Rogue is the day I uninstall

blizz legit do not recognize the potency of the archetype

[fathom whale]

i played outlaw for fun on what myth chim pull and i got flamed for playing outlaw ?

i was blsating

BLASTING

[opal badger]

I got offer to play 2nd team for myth prog but they said sub

I was like why sub, I want to play outlaw

[fathom whale]

yeah they want me to play sub too but its fkin zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

rather kick rocks

[opal badger]

I guess because consistency

[glass heron]

imo a guild that forces players to play something they dont like is an L guild

[opal badger]

But i feel like I would do more dps on outlaw

Not to mention I already spent rolls and crafted weapon toward outlaw

[unkempt dew]

F em

Just play outlaw

[thorn plinth]

whats the verdict on fb vs trickster from sims and what ppl play tested? was off for a bit due to work sorry if discussed already

[long bramble]

Idk my guild is 4/9 M atm and they still didn’t ask to roll off outlaw i hope it never happens

[opal badger]

True, but they said that the had no idea that specs other than sub are viable

[long bramble]

We re @ dragons atm

[thorn plinth]

im not tagging solo cause he will pistol shot me for it

[opal badger]

I tried assassination but I don't see damage there

[glass heron]

3 of them

do almost the same

diff damage profiles tho

[long bramble]

Trickster is higher by low margin you can swap to fb if you feel like it

[thorn plinth]

do ppl like it tho? lol

[glass heron]

for example for belo u will want to get a burst spec

[long bramble]

Fb seems finishing higher in some keys on long run

But number wise trickster is ahead

[glass heron]

that's sub or assa

[thorn plinth]

i saw wox die twice from tilt on FB in PoS go out and respec Trick

kekw

[blissful idol]

[opal badger]

After all, this rogue is side project to have fun

So I will stick to outlaw anyway

[glass heron]

u should be always having fun remember that

[weary flume]

can someone one share FB talents after this nerfs and buffs? I wanna give it a try

[glass heron]

fck all outlaw haters

[weary flume]

I onlt play tricks

[blissful idol]

@gaunt phoenix ok got wrist where do i recraft embellishment then

[opal badger]

My main is dev but now mostly locked to raid drops

[blissful idol]

feet right

[long bramble]

Look outlaw faq

[weary flume]

oh, forgot about that thanks 🙂

[opal badger]

My child outlaw is simming 94k

[gaunt phoenix]

i think you should craft helm

[waxen scarab]

any fatebounders ?

or is trickster still the way

[blissful idol]

does it accept embellish?

[raw trench]

guys i need help pls

talent for fatebound is updated on wowhead?

[mighty hare]

it is updated in #outlaw-faq

[broken umbra]

We still play trickster for keys, right?

[halcyon chasm]

After playing trickster for three weeks, fatebound is booooooring

[gaunt phoenix]

it's a bit head, but fatebound is close enough if you prefer it

[waxen scarab]

what about raid/st?

[gaunt phoenix]

it's the same

trickster is most ahead at sustain cleave by like 4-5% which is a bit hard to give up

but on st and overall m+ it is closer

[normal violet]

Can I bother someone for outlaw advice regarding logs?

[gaunt phoenix]

sure

[proven ocean]

Ye u can bother solo np

Did i just say brother

No i said bother

Oh ok

[turbid robin]

GUYS

I NEED BEST TALENT FOR AOE AND BEST FOR SINGLE RAID

[inland acorn]

Ah yes, if only we had place where we have best builds

[waxen scarab]

try fatebound let me know how is it

[inland acorn]

#outlaw-faq

[quaint delta]

he's only looking for the best talent. singular

[inland acorn]

Ah my bad then, that is indeed hard case to crack

[jolly geyser]

Precise cuts

[quiet root]

hidden opportunity, clearly

[rough leaf]

i reckon they buffed us

im owning

[formal knot]

they gave +100% aura farming buff for all outlaw players

[fervent garden]

haha. that would be sweet!

[river wing]

pretty sure that would be LD

[normal violet]

I sent you a DM, but I should've probably asked you first if that was ok before sending or if you prefer I send the link here instead

[timid idol]

is the head tierset good?

as in is it passable at least

[subtle void]

na

[timid idol]

i got it with gem, im assuming even tho its mastery head it has to be kinda good no?

myth + gem

i could sim ig but i don't see myth gem head not being good

[cosmic parrot]

how is guidon best used as outlaw? my trinkets are terrible but i rolled a myth guidon last night

just pop during downtime?

[fervent garden]

so i know its a noob questions, but gonna ask it anyway

what's an Aura Buff? just Blizz saying 'we nerfed something else, so here's an Aura!"?

[atomic coyote]

Invisible dmg% mod for spec

[vivid vessel]

ye

every spec in the game has a % modifier

that impact every spell they use

[fervent garden]

gotcha. so its spec based dam

kinda

[normal hawk]

Ye

[vivid vessel]

there is also an aura mod for melees

that they sometimes also buff with aura buffs

[fervent garden]

cool. glad i asked. noob

[vivid vessel]

they did this time for example

[junior sierra]

are you back to fatebound in m+ zac?

[arctic hollow]

Do you have nothing else for trinkets ? If you are anywhere near the haste target the active wont help and if you are really far then you are screwed anyway. Crucible beats myth guidon

Only use I can think of is bag ilevel

[cosmic parrot]

i have heroic insignia as well it just sims worse and im not close to the preferred haste %

im at like 23% with a flask

and an lfr gaze 🙃

[arctic hollow]

Insigna - crucible in my opinion then, with flask and oils you are not that far off the haste target

[cosmic parrot]

alright ill try it out, thanks!

[vivid vessel]

no

[young mango]

@vivid vessel so its not nerf right ? we staying outlaw trickster ?

[vivid vessel]

its a 2% st nerf

trickster is still better tho yes

fatebound is close but it doesnt have perma tricks

so idk

[young mango]

at least outlaw still playable

[wide shore]

is there any good resource to know what cloak can dispel or prevent? in either raid or m+

[elder sonnet]

perma tricks is too op to give up

[random stirrup]

there is a pinned rogue defensive sheet in wow general

dont know if it has raid yet

but most key interactions with feint/evasion/cloak/vanish are in there

[odd flax]

weird question but is a heroic gaze better than mythic solarflare - mythic heart of wind ?

[gaunt phoenix]

should be

[odd flax]

interesting

[gaunt phoenix]

maybe solar is close

[odd flax]

i can get heroic but i doubt im doing any mythic raiding

[tight kernel]

yo wtf is this eu maintance on na

[steel shadow]

ok i just went to check the entire faq and theres nothing there so whats the deal with this tott thing you guys are talking abt i basically just ignore that button since my tank has threat anyway i never saw a purpose in pressing it

[steel shadow]

mythic chimaerus is exceptionally puggable

[tight kernel]

press it at start of key

gg

[steel shadow]

but why

[tight kernel]

its perma

on trickers

[odd flax]

oh i guess ill try to get into groups then 😄

[random stirrup]

you can literally run in with the tank and start hitting instantly

including before things are grouped

[tight kernel]

Okay so when you first cast it, you have like 30 seconds to hit something to activate the 1 hr buff

[steel shadow]

fair warning it can be extremely hit or miss, this week my dk's pug cleared it first try, my rogue had to do a little pug prog for like an hour or two

but its very very doable

[tight kernel]

so i guess thats the only caveat idk

[wide shore]

that’s the hard part
I finally got into a decent pug and we wiped at 0.5% bc a few dead dps somehow..??

[odd flax]

^ unlucky

[steel shadow]

the pugs that require discord seem to go a lot smoother

[wide shore]

problem is most groups are gatekept by CE only
I got back into wow 3 weeks late this exp

[steel shadow]

i see well this is mildly useful i suppose i guess ill stop ignoring the button entirely

[steel shadow]

are u on NA?

[marsh raft]

they prolly broke housing again

[wide shore]

yep

[steel shadow]

if you want you can dm me your btag and ill get you in when i run one on my hunter sometime this week

[tight kernel]

get me in champ

i want in

[steel shadow]

all outlaw rogue run

[marsh raft]

That'll end poorly, Crimson Vial can't keep up 😉

[random stirrup]

for the most part, you just pretend threat is a non existent mechanic and instantly start farming cdr or you can even pull for your tank by pistol shotting (tricks will transfer threat after the first hit so you can get meleed if too close). it's not quite as op now but in earlier seasons outlaw had a good amount of burst right out of stealth so you would rip and die on the shitter mobs with less threat

it's very cozy to have perma tott, i miss it on other melee that don't really have ramp

[steel shadow]

what is the general expected variance for pull to pull? cos i purple parsed chim today but i just highrolled jackpots on the kill pull and conversely on pulls where i was rolling 1s and 2s even while loaded i looked like i didnt know how to operate a keyboard

[gaunt phoenix]

over 5 minutes ST our standard deviation is approx 5% of the average

so in most cases you will fall +/- 5% of the expected value

but some cases will be within +/- 10%

[fervent garden]

You got a specific server that you use for Raid Groups?

[gaunt phoenix]

exceptionally unlucky (or lucky) would be +/- 15%

[river wing]

and some pulls are like
15% worse smh fml

[inland acorn]

Yeah, if you proc

3 teas in 15 seconds

you can logout

🙂

[gaunt phoenix]

and variance drastically increases as time decreases

1 minute is like 13% for 1 stdev

so 1 minute segments could be separated by 40% in worse case

[opal badger]

I wonder if can get to mythic dreamrift when I have CE on main

[marsh raft]

spontaneous eu maintenance is over

[inland acorn]

if you don't have famed slayer for all 3 raids and 4k io, forget it

[opal badger]

gg

Still 4/9 m

[inland acorn]

yeah well, you could be like me

my guild will soon be 8/9

but I'm 5/9

Benched on paladins, alleria and belo

[opal badger]

Main group is about to be 6/9

I'm in 2nd and were halfway dragons

[river wing]

smh law isn't even bad on bird innit

[inland acorn]

eh idk

i was actually ok going sub, before they nerfed cloud

Since their stats looked very similiar to ours where crit was basically same or even gain over mastery

[gaunt phoenix]

i actually had no idea fazed still stacks to 3 for sub

[inland acorn]

wait it stacks for them ?

[gaunt phoenix]

stack to 2 is specifically an outlaw change

yes

[inland acorn]

I guess it makes some sense, since we have better uptime

[gaunt phoenix]

eh

i mean they link it with actual burst

[cold dust]

yo u guys know we run same talents on trick after reset?

[random stirrup]

you dont play cloud on sub anymore after the changes anyway

[wide shore]

wtf???

[random stirrup]

too weak

[gaunt phoenix]

im surprised 2% crit on scruples is enough to remove cloud cover

[inland acorn]

ye

I just don't think they value it as much as we do, during their cds no ?

[wide shore]

can they make hero talents differ like that for specs?

[random stirrup]

it's specifically because cloud cover duration is too short

[inland acorn]

They can

[steel shadow]

oh no no the groups i run dont use discord because i have extreme social phobias and am incapable of taking a leadership position beyond text

just that groups i join with different leaders that dont have the issue seem to zoom by

[gaunt phoenix]

12s + lingering 3 stack is too short?

[inland acorn]

doesn't it drop stacks when you "reapply" though ?

Like if you refresh fazed on target

[gaunt phoenix]

it does if cloud cover has expired

[keen belfry]

Do you even get your 2nd sex tech in cloud now

[gaunt phoenix]

sex tech

[wintry solar]

3 stack didn't get removed?

[gaunt phoenix]

not for sub

[steel shadow]

what in the name of god is a sex tech we're getting as crazy as SSBM in here

[river wing]

gotta bust fast

[inland acorn]

sub sex tech

holy

[gaunt phoenix]

2 of them even

[inland acorn]

[gaunt phoenix]

awang is used to typing that word

i see you

[inland acorn]

[keen belfry]

Ty

Nbd

[inland acorn]

hmm, from the logs of some random sub on belo I see they cast 2 sec techs like 15-20s apart

[random stirrup]

yes, because your second dance of blades is cast around 12s

[vivid vessel]

its hasted

the cd

[gaunt phoenix]

i see

[inland acorn]

[random stirrup]

so you press cloud cover and it only affects a single dance

quite bad!

and only one sex tech

[quaint mauve]

wtf is sex tech

[inland acorn]

only one sex tech

[vivid vessel]

why are you hating on me hml

fuck youi !

[quaint mauve]

bc

bro

[keen belfry]

You wouldn’t get it lil bro

[vivid vessel]

because what

!

[random stirrup]

oh ye and this sex tech will also reset the fazed stacks to 1

[quaint mauve]

just bc

[random stirrup]

i think it still works this way

[vivid vessel]

whatdehelly

[gaunt phoenix]

it does

[random stirrup]

since it comes out around 15s (during lust at least)

[quaint mauve]

this was lwk just for april fools

it just stick

stuck

[random stirrup]

rip stink bomb

[keen belfry]

So funny sub is back to 0 burst

[vivid vessel]

i mean

0 burst

[keen belfry]

I was so happy for sub during fart cloud

[quaint mauve]

13 days of fun for sub

[gaunt phoenix]

did sub bros have to recraft all their shit to mastery again

[vivid vessel]

sub players just hate when they arent r1 burst in the game

[random stirrup]

yes

[vivid vessel]

skill issue really

[quaint mauve]

that’s their whole niche

[random stirrup]

there were some stat weight related breakdowns

[vivid vessel]

this is grealy overstatted tbf

[random stirrup]

good times

[vivid vessel]

crit sims the same as mastery for me really

[keen belfry]

They are pretty low on the burst totem pole now tbf

[quaint mauve]

i feel like

[vivid vessel]

ok fuck them

look at us

[quaint mauve]

dev dh has similar play style to old outlaw

[keen belfry]

I agree but also, rogue bros stick together

[quaint mauve]

maximizing uptime and stuff

[west ridge]

i mean thats sub's thing

[keen belfry]

Zac you’re an outlaw rogue not an outlaw. Ok????

[random stirrup]

they put me on dk for lura btw

[keen belfry]

Outlaw ROGUE

[vivid vessel]

noob

[random stirrup]

i am no longer an outlaw

[vivid vessel]

they put me on law on lura

i had no choice

[random stirrup]

grip is not a raid buff btw

we just play 3 for fun

[west ridge]

man what is this rogue to dk pipeline

i swear so many rogue players go dk

or are forced to go dk

[quaint mauve]

bc dk is best melee rn

[random stirrup]

well this tier

[west ridge]

its almost like the class is better

[keen belfry]

shout I level my dk?

[random stirrup]

dk was the only melee u play on multiple fights

[gaunt phoenix]

dk is a melee?

[random stirrup]

3 melee on alleria and 2 are dk

"melee"

[vivid vessel]

ok but what do you call it

[faint pendant]

dk has one melee ability

ye

[inland acorn]

dk melee

[faint pendant]

[vivid vessel]

they deleted acro btw

make it make sense

[river wing]

two melee specs of the three!

[quaint mauve]

they are the best melee bc they’re ranged

[keen belfry]

Needsomegrog

[random stirrup]

gripawang

[vivid vessel]

need some grog?

tf does that mean

[keen belfry]

Gragas line

He says that in league of legends

[gaunt phoenix]

need some grog?

[west ridge]

do you build ap gragas?

or lame af tank gragas

[keen belfry]

My gragas is nasty

Bomba

[vivid vessel]

bomba !

[west ridge]

do you do the alley oop?

ult into expolding q?

[keen belfry]

I only do the sickest things ever

[west ridge]

dam you sick with it

[steel shadow]

its not that we DKs dont appreciate when grip is useful in fights we just think its stupid and limits design space to force grips into fights when you could just give us 3% haste for 60 minutes raidwide and then only have grippable mobs when it makes sense and is inspired

[keen belfry]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923682607857685/1425228266259615814/Medal_bq8VRieIyp.gif

[verbal lily]

hey, i'm interested to see your m+ talents for outlaw rogue after the patch, do u go for acrobatic strikes?

[vivid vessel]

talents havent changed

[random stirrup]

no, if you want a real raid buff you lose grip entirely

[blissful idol]

6pek

[west ridge]

https://giphy.com/gifs/no-country-for-old-men-javier-bardem-anton-chigurh-yS4pubxgAruXm

[keen belfry]

Cool guy don’t look at explosions

[random stirrup]

these "raid buffs" that just mandate you play 3x of a class are stupid

nerf tf out of hunter's mark

[cinder relic]

If grip isn't a raid buff, give grip to rogue then

[vivid vessel]

fuck you dk player !

outlaw should have a grip with grapple hook

you grapple a mob to you

like a pirate

[steel shadow]

druids get to keep mark while also having vortex, typhoon, mass root...

theres no reason we cany have a single charge of death grip where its like "oh its really nice to have a grip here" instead of blizz forcing it where it doesnt belong

[inland acorn]

btw @vivid vessel question because it's been annoying me lately. I have this weird border that looks like it's coming from blizz default ui or something ? Only for the RTB, Brez, Lust WAs though

[random stirrup]

none of those are remotely close in value to grip

[cinder relic]

What does that even mean

[random stirrup]

when do you play 3 druids to triple cast mass entangle?

[torpid fiber]

I feel like dk players would be fine with other specs getting grip if they got a real raid buff, no?

[vivid vessel]

oh cause you play with default icons ?

so weird !

why would you do that

[inland acorn]

No, I have the hmm

Dark icons

[steel shadow]

if it makes you feel any better as you can tell by my flair im a blood dk main so my spec is also perpetually terrible (in keys)

[inland acorn]

The ones you used in TWW

[vivid vessel]

haha owned !

[faint pendant]

rogue utility is soaking

[vivid vessel]

weird

how come i dont have that

are you sure

you actually have it

[random stirrup]

they should nerf time spiral too

I said it!

those guys should also have a real raid buff probably

[cinder relic]

Evoker utility genuinely needs to be gutted

[steel shadow]

if they didnt have mark of the wild and the timeline split off and blizzard stubbornly refused to give them a raid buff and began designing encounters around mass root while claiming mass root was their raid buff

[vivid vessel]

you can also use a zoom 30% on these weak auras but like

[steel shadow]

its not really a fair comparison

[inland acorn]

yeah, it's the kodewdle* ones, I even reinstalled it like 1 week ago

[cinder relic]

It's kind of nonsense how good spiral and zepher are

[wintry solar]

And mage

And ret

[cinder relic]

Nah

[wintry solar]

Yes

[cinder relic]

Mage utility is irrelevant in raid idrc

[random stirrup]

i am fully down with giving dk a real raid buff and think it should happen but they just cannot keep grip in any remotely similar form at the same time or else it's just going to still be mandatory to play lots of them

[cinder relic]

Evoker utility in raid is literally "always end up as a 2 of in every raid ever"

[random stirrup]

every other raid buff is play 1 of

dk is play 0-4 of

[cinder relic]

Grip is broken as fuck

It's better than any raid buff

[random stirrup]

hunter is play 1-3 of (single best raid buff in the game)

[steel shadow]

thats where i think the disconnect between what were saying is happening

if dks have a normal raid buff they wont insist on designing encounters around mandatory grips

im not saying keep the grips mandatory and also give us a haste buff

[random stirrup]

I just simply do not believe they will never design a fight again where it is useful to grip more than one mob

[cinder relic]

There will never not be encounters that don't call for grip in some capacity

[cinder relic]

Exactly

Unless they just flag the entire raid with "cannot grip"

[random stirrup]

if you want to make it a 15yd range 1charge 1min cd to equalize it with knocks maybe

[steel shadow]

recency bias ontop of, again, blizzard is INSISTING that dk's raid buff is grip and forcing it in

it wasnt like this before

[gaunt phoenix]

i think my guild has gone gripless for several expansions

this raid has felt the worst without it

[wintry solar]

Dood they're gonna make a mob so grippable it's gonna be the grippiest grippable add of all time

[random stirrup]

was grip not good even all of df on end bosses

[cinder relic]

Grip has always been insanely strong in raid lol

[random stirrup]

it's not recency

[vivid vessel]

grip is also insanely op in keys

and that will never change

[random stirrup]

it was literally just bad in lou

[vivid vessel]

i give you my rogue raid buff

if you give me grip

deal

[steel shadow]

no deal

[vivid vessel]

i take that deal anyday of the week btw

any season

wtf

[cinder relic]

There's a large reason that dks end up being the tank to be for prog kills on a lot of random fights

[vivid vessel]

!

wdym no deal

i thoguht you wanted a raid buff

[cinder relic]

And it's not cuz bdk is actually good

[vivid vessel]

i gave you one

[cinder relic]

Cuz bdk is usually unplayable lol

It's cuz grip and gorefiends

[faint pendant]

what if it would replace grappling hook

[vivid vessel]

you are going too far now

[random stirrup]

nah they want a raid buff AND grip so they just are mandatory and get to be double/triple played 🙂

[vivid vessel]

outlaw no mobility

gg

i mean if its just grappling hook

and you can use it on a target

then its fine

like use it on a target its a grip

[cinder relic]

Don't forget and overtuned every tier, and also immune to knock backs! Better cloak and sprint too

[vivid vessel]

use it on floor its a dash

i accept that deal

[random stirrup]

i tanked 5 ticks of a glaive on lura yesterday

i die through cheat to that on rogue

[vivid vessel]

[cinder relic]

Dk is genuinely the most overkitted class in the game rn

[steel shadow]

counteroffer

dks get a haste raid buff and keep single charge of death grip

rogues get a functionally identical grip ability because theres no reason to keep it class exclusive if it isnt dk's only raid value

[cinder relic]

It's genuinely sickening how bloated their toolkits are

They literally just have 2x the toolkit budget any other spec and class in the entire game has

Vomit inducing

[vivid vessel]

counter offer, we get the haste raid buff, and you get atro, and we also get grip because rogue in keys is litteraly turbo useless utility

deal?

thank you

[steel shadow]

u greedy

[vivid vessel]

im not

dk is 10 times what rogue is

in term of utility

[random stirrup]

im sure if both dk and rogue have grip but dk has a haste raid buff and is dk that you will play rogue for grips right

[vivid vessel]

defensives

[random stirrup]

[vivid vessel]

and damage !

every tier omegalul

can ignore damage if you want

we can say its lucky tuning

[normal violet]

Does anyone give a crit raid buff?

[vivid vessel]

dk been op the past 3 expac

[normal violet]

I thought at one point feral druids did, but idk if I'm making that up or not

[vivid vessel]

its vers

[random stirrup]

in cata yes there was a crit raid buff

think feral did bring it along with rogue

[steel shadow]

i just want to reiterate that im not here as the official DK ambassador im just an outlaw rogue player who happens to traditionally main blood dk giving perspective on why dk players dont like grip being shoehorned into fights in place of giving them an actual raid buff

[vivid vessel]

fuck you we hate you stupid dk player !

[steel shadow]

damn it

[random stirrup]

i get why they don't like it but in reality it ends up being like this tier where dk is by far the most mandatory class in the raid and the only one that gets the luxury of getting brought more than 1 of

[normal violet]

We should just make it so that rogues have a crit raid buff imo
also maybe make DKs bring back horn of winter or something idk

[glass shard]

mmmmm

fatebound....

mmmm

i love world of warcraft

[cinder relic]

I mean idk it's just dumb Imo

[random stirrup]

play lura without double dk for sure bro

playable fight

[glass shard]

what are we talking about fellas

[cinder relic]

They aren't "shoehorning grip to be good"

[glass shard]

dks ?

[random stirrup]

just bring 20 classes with knocks and perfect coordinate it

[cinder relic]

Like, grip has, and will continue to be very useful on a lot of fights

Which is fine. I think it's cooler utility than just "give raid 3% haste"

[wintry solar]

They hate regardless

[vivid vessel]

popo

i know you are also a dk main

[wintry solar]

Ye

[vivid vessel]

you think you can get me as easely ?

[wintry solar]

No, I know I can

Big diff

[random stirrup]

again i was asked to swap off rogue (as the only one bringing that raid buff) so we could play a THIRD dk

[steel shadow]

what if the casters on chimaerus were programmed to walk towards their threat target for 2 seconds before they were capable of casting

or if they didnt sometimes spawn in actual zimbabwe

im not an encounter designer im not even really that good at the game im basically just parroting dk players i respect and also Max

[glass shard]

do u have vod of ur 22 seat

wasnt on rio

:c

[wintry solar]

He probably doesn't want you to see it then

Smh

[faint pendant]

what if the mob is randomly slowed

[steel shadow]

skill issue

[wintry solar]

Just get your Monk that you absolutely have in your key to RoP it

[glass shard]

i never care about max opinion

[inland acorn]

found the culprit, it was masque

[glass shard]

hes too out of touch

[random stirrup]

the dk players people supposedly respect:

[vivid vessel]

haha !

[inland acorn]

I didn't knew it was enabled for m33kauras 🤣

[steel shadow]

is that written by literally anyone but kryasis

[random stirrup]

it is not kyrasis no

[vivid vessel]

wait

why does it say

[steel shadow]

then i dont respect them

[vivid vessel]

low m+ utility

[random stirrup]

ye

[glass shard]

upsides: we do inf damage and a drooler without hands can play us!

downside: if ur in a +4 u prob dont know how to press ams :P

XD

[vivid vessel]

dk might be the strongest m+ utility in the game

and its not even close

also thats just grip

im not even talking about the fact you are immortal

[steel shadow]

im also in the blood dk specific discord that splintered off from the main dk discord because the main dk discord is a bunch of clowns

[vivid vessel]

and that ams is complete bonkers

[cinder relic]

Okay but even in this scenario you just said, grip would still be broken. Walk towards the target for 2 seconds? Why would you do that when you can just grip it and get it stacked in 0.2 seconds.

But also, why does grip need to be bad in raid? Isn't it more interesting to have an actual utility thats unique to your class than applying "dk aura" and giving 3% haste

[random stirrup]

I think there's an argument that aug utility is better in keys sometimes

but ams is truly op

its def dk strongest m+ util

[weary flume]

is dungeon slice sim work for outlaw? if not how the best setup to sim my m+ dps?

[faint pendant]

they have combat ress too

[cinder relic]

Like am I the only person who thinks that dks having grip as utility is better than just "haste aura raid buff"

[random stirrup]

#subtlety message

[faint pendant]

also they are not "low mobility" since uhdks play riders hero talents

[wintry solar]

Blizzard stated that it's intentional that dps DK is that strong because it's true to form of a death knight in lore. So comparing yourself to DK in survival is like being upset your car can't run over a train

[opal valve]

long af range, grouping adds, basically infinite cdr cuz of resets, micro cc/pseudo interrupt and half gcd. what a nutty ability. low utility tho

[random stirrup]

me when my lore is to be immortal and do infinite damage and have infinite utility

[cinder relic]

My lore is that I'm the best

[normal violet]

Promise I'm not stalking if it's you, but are you in Eminence

[mighty pivot]

it does create the problem that grips can be stacked, so some fights can become noticeably easier by stacking dks. But a unique raid buff doesn't create this issue. Of course you also have fights where grips just don't anything so it "balances out"

[opal valve]

Yea

[minor thorn]

I don't think every fight spawning adds that need to be gripped in just so dks can feel that their utility is valuable is interesting.

[random stirrup]

rogue should be true to lore and just be invisible the entire time and never get a single mechanic or take any damage

[steel shadow]

thats what im saying

[vivid vessel]

LORE

[cinder relic]

The issue is that I don't see a world where they "remove grip" without making the entire raid immune to grip entirely

[steel shadow]

forcing grips into fights because "its our raid buff" is stupid and bad

[wintry solar]

Take it up with blizz yall

Idk what to tell you

Don't flame me

[mighty pivot]

yes I don't see an easy fix either. It's just a strong ability and gutting it wouldn't make anyone happy

[cinder abyss]

Feral had leader of the pack, rogues used to have honor among thieves back in wrath. Think it was the sub tree also anyone in raid crit it gave you a combo point (internal cd) that would be pretty good nowdays

[wintry solar]

Literally this

[cinder relic]

Like death grip is part of dks identity. It's not being removed, so the only alternative is make it so mobs in raid cannot be gripped.

But then like, what happens when you design a boss like lura, and crystals exist, and you can't grip them. Do you just have to do fucking shaman knock and evoker knock to position them properly? Or just play like 10 balance druids..?

[steel shadow]

this gets down to hair splitting where im getting dangerously close to making the "if the fight isnt designed specifically around grip, then grip being SLIGHTLY better than no grip is basically only relevant for like 50 guilds tops"

and i dont feel like thatll lead to any productive discussion

[normal violet]

DM'd you whenever you get a second (no rush at all)

[random stirrup]

they spawn way closer and can be dealed with in 2 knocks

[cinder relic]

Okay well what happens when they don't perfectly design an encounter

[steel shadow]

u get silken court

[glass shard]

i was hi explo trapping fyrakk adds on hunter

[steel shadow]

bazinga

[glass shard]

that was fire

[cinder relic]

Just eat shit and play balance druid?

[random stirrup]

point and laugh as rwf suffers until they nerf it

[glass shard]

(we only had 1 dk)

[cinder relic]

The other issue is that grip is just 50x more consistent than knocks

Like unless they just always make bosses "spawn add ontop of everybody" grip is always going to have value

And like I said, grip is never going away

[mighty pivot]

just add scroll of death grip

[steel shadow]

like i said to zac, if DKs got a real raid buff you could give an ability that was functionally identical to grip to another class, or a few

blood lust used to be shamans raid buff

[glass shard]

they should make add spawns work like that 1 boss in 1 of the new dungeons

or uhhh

[cinder relic]

The new talking point is "if death grip isn't a raid buff, just give rogue death grip them"

[glass shard]

ToP last boss

spawn it on ppl

[wintry solar]

I like DK always being present

[light mountain]

its cool but wld be nice if blizz stopped forcing mobs to be gripped in raids down our neck

[mighty pivot]

it would fit outlaw...

[cinder abyss]

Scorpion "get over here" playing in my head while im reading this haha

[steel shadow]

if dks had a real raid buff, rogues could have a scorpion get over here, some other class could have some other creative flavorful interpretation

[cinder relic]

Grip has been a very important part of raid since I've been playing

[light mountain]

yeah thats what im saying

[random stirrup]

I do actually think this is a good solution just recent tuning would mean you play dk to bring the grips the whole time anyway

[proven ocean]

guys

[random stirrup]

give it to outlaw/enh/surv/havoc/feral maybe

[proven ocean]

Its ross

[vivid vessel]

tbf it would

[proven ocean]

How are you

[vivid vessel]

if it was the grappling hook

[random stirrup]

the homeless melee who you just bring the ranged version of

[minor thorn]

Also BDK is just better for grips in every way possible. Grip as a raid buff isn't even balanced between their specs.

[glass shard]

but alsoooooo

is it a problem

that dk has grip

like

[vivid vessel]

its litteraly the same spell these gripper bosses use

[glass shard]

what is the problem with that xd

[vivid vessel]

like the one from necrotic wake

[wintry solar]

True

[vivid vessel]

and the one from spire

so !

[random stirrup]

you play 3 of them on every important fight while you just drop other classes entirely?

[steel shadow]

if you only needed 2 grippers you could effectively bring dk buff + grips + atrophic in 2 raid slots

it doesnt help that one spec of dps dk has been like dumb strong for the past 2 years it feels like

[glass shard]

game is game

[minor thorn]

Imagine if Atrophic poison was just 50% better for Assa because "they the poison spec"

[wintry solar]

I'd applaud blizz for balls like that ngl

[steel shadow]

idk how old any of you are but mages getting time warp was a big deal

[cinder relic]

The issue is dk players are little oinkers who want death grip, and a raid buff, and infinite mobility, and da, and be overtuned every tier, and

[atomic coyote]

There was also a period of 8 years of always immunitystacking. And having as many as 5 rogues could happen. Times have changed. I dont feel grip has reached that point yet.

[glass shard]

guys

[cinder relic]

I like grip

[glass shard]

shroud is rogues raidbuff

[cinder relic]

I like that grip exists

[strange kelp]

This is like every spec

[light mountain]

as long as they take exe away from assa and give to outlaw : 3

[glass shard]

kinda true

but other specs wanna be top dps

[cinder relic]

It was originally gonna be sin only lol

[vivid vessel]

ye but dk alreayd have all of that

[glass shard]

us outlaw rogues just dont wanna be bottom...

[vivid vessel]

and they want more !

[west ridge]

outlaw should have a talent that makes hook grip the target towards you

[vivid vessel]

whatdehelly

[west ridge]

boom outlaw is raid meta now

[glass shard]

way too broken in arena

would never happen

[vivid vessel]

bro

fuck

[west ridge]

fuck sin /sub

[vivid vessel]

pvp

remoe

pvp

from

the game

i swear to god

[glass shard]

awful opinion

[wintry solar]

I promise it's not a pvp thing lmaoo

[glass shard]

fuck u zac

[pearl trout]

pvp

[dusky steeple]

do we still play trickster or now fb ?

[west ridge]

holy shit @vivid vessel is omega based

[glass shard]

its the sole reason why priest never got kick

[vivid vessel]

cant believe there is always a guy to say that it would be op in pvp

[gaunt phoenix]

trickster is a bit better but fb is kinda close if you prefer it

[vivid vessel]

like this isnt a pve game

[wintry solar]

Me when I make stuff up

[glass shard]

rmp bro

its legit the only reason

[steel shadow]

The disconnect is that DK players want a raid buff and to keep the death grip ability

Non-DK players read that and they read it as "we want a raid buff but we also want grip to remain exactly as mandatory and stackable as it is now" which is not what anybody wants

well maybe some people but not anyone who is even remotely rational

[cinder relic]

Every time I tweet about rogue bad I get half the responses being "it's op in PvP what's Ur point"

[glass shard]

only ppl that say pvp is bad are people that have never done it

[minor thorn]

Or people who dislike pvp?

[random stirrup]

make it a choice node with kidney shot

[glass shard]

dislike it cuz they're bad

[inland acorn]

Wonder how many of those responders actually play PvP

[random stirrup]

easy

[glass shard]

no other reason

wow arena is like SSS tier pvp

just stupid hard to get into

[odd flax]

ive done some pvp and still think its bad 😄

[steel shadow]

Just make PVP work like FFXIV where you have an entirely different skill set with different spell IDs

[vivid vessel]

how do i take it in keys then

whadeehtlly

[glass shard]

yea "some" pvp

[random stirrup]

ok make it a pve talent only

[glass shard]

its like saying m+ is bad when uve done a +7 one time

[odd flax]

some = one time now?

[wintry solar]

That's a guess at best

[random stirrup]

IVE BEEN ROOTED BY FROST MAGE 19 TIMES IN A ROW

[minor thorn]

This is the problem, nobody wants to get fucking destroyed by people who have pvp gear in order to farm pvp gear to be able to pvp at an even playing field.

[glass shard]

real

idk barrier to entry for arena is just too high

[steel shadow]

showing my age again but there was once a time where like every pve player was forced to do a pretty sizeable amount of pvp to acquire a legendary

[random stirrup]

i dont get why pvpers love 3s

2s has been very fun this patch and 3s is just suffering

[wintry solar]

It'll always be high because people don't understand the nuances of CC

[glass shard]

u need to know

every ability in the game
the cooldown of said ability
if the enemy even has it available to them at any given time
how it interacts with your specific class
how it interacts with ur teammates

[wintry solar]

In pve vs pvp

[glass shard]

and if thats not what u have

[random stirrup]

im gonna blow up facing double wizard

[glass shard]

u just lose

[random stirrup]

we played into double frost mage once

as thug

i cannot move

[glass shard]

i think this is unironically good

mmo moment

but then again

season 1 shadowlands......

despair

[wintry solar]

It's coordinated and the wins feel earned

[vivid vessel]

pvp should get deleted and we would finally have good tuning !

[minor thorn]

Or Essence farming

[odd flax]

fr

[glass shard]

do u have an atlas

:clueless:

3.29 when

actually