Tbf. I think that tank, being guardian druid, ate like a 50% overall nerf
#outlaw
quiet ore
glass mortar
those were the numbers for sub
tribal cosmos
Dark ranger buffed againnnnn
spice gull
brew untouched
broken cargo
the aoe nerf to sub is pretty big
glass mortar
i mean it got nerfed
but not by much
from the sounds of it
and it was the low target/ST strongest build that got hit ig?
tribal cosmos
Ret paladin got a 25% aura buff basically wtf
glass mortar
prob still great in m+
quiet ore
Guardian druid got a Penta-tap nerf to ravage; it needed it
mystic berry
assa too
verbal swift
Ret paladin got a 25% aura buff basically wtf
they were about to close their discord, blizz had to act
vivid vessel
thats an incredible news
normal forge
they got nimble flurry nerf, like we did on s3, nice
wintry leaf
How are we back? We didn't get touched
glass mortar
i see bears in druid discord saying with this nerf theyd sim for 83k
ST
im pretty sure thats still ahead of some dps specs
quiet ore
just need a sin aoe nerf now
Isn't caustic already incredibly low cleave % now?
normal forge
we are so back
waiting ur guide vids this season
primal holly
suddenly regretting crafting a sword 🥲
vivid vessel
How are we back? We didn't get touched
sub aoe got nerfed
outer meteor
but a key nerf
thats my cope
mystic berry
This arcane buff will bite them in the ass so bad
glass mortar
Isn't caustic already incredibly low cleave % now?
doesnt matter its now how they do aoe
daring yoke
i guess solo got his work cut out this week for pinning new info 😭
vivid vessel
Isn't caustic already incredibly low cleave % now?
i mean thats whatever they have 10 other things that do aoe
midnight granite
where the buffs
quiet ore
i mean thats whatever they have 10 other things that do aoe
Yeah, that's just the aoe tuning lever they've used the most
normal forge
i was expecting a bit more ST dmg for law, in m+ bosses I struggle a lot
wintry leaf
Doesn't sub press like three rotation buttons now?
Shadow strike... eviscerate , Shadow dance?
vivid vessel
where the buffs
sub got aoe nerfed which is a direct aoe buff for outlaw
these notes are good
outlaw season in keys
mark my words
mystic berry
where the buffs
The buff is not getting nerfed
quiet ore
outlaw season in keys
I get sad when it's a "sub in raid. Law in keys" season
vivid vessel
I get sad when it's a "sub in raid. Law in keys" season
why
its been sub in raid every season
for legit
10 years
and sometimes law in keys
actually i need to check
i think it has been more often sub in keys than law in keys since i started
quiet ore
why
Because I started as a sub main and was forced in OL for keys. And now that I'm an OL main I resent swapping back.
vivid vessel
but i started in sl so i guess its my fault
normal forge
how much dmg gain % does sub gets with tier set?
vivid vessel
50 PERCENT
velvet blade
think its around 13%
normal forge
there is that, we are at 4.5%
vivid vessel
what does htat mean
prisma lantern
think its around 13%
Was around 8%, but I think maybe higher after the buffs?
velvet blade
there is that, we are at 4.5%
that just means ur stronger earlier - thats actually a good thing lol
vivid vessel
that just means ur stronger earlier - thats actually a good thing lol
i disagree
mystic berry
oh yeah we getting mogged in tier
velvet blade
specs get balanced around having full set
lavish shoal
sub gets 100% gain from tier set
vivid vessel
its better to have a big tier cause otherwise you get nerfed in hc week
based on no tier data
lavish shoal
outlaw gets -10% dmg
velvet blade
i disagree
you might not get pieces early
lavish shoal
its better to have a big tier cause otherwise you get nerfed in hc week
this is so true
lavish shoal
its so funny as well
normal forge
u have to down play urself, zac, or blizz will think law is too stronk
lavish shoal
isnt outlaw tier just dogwater
pastel cedar
whole expac is dogwater for rogue
vivid vessel
isnt outlaw tier just dogwater
idk no clue
its a number
a certain number
between 3% and 15% i would say
around that
cant say for sure
velvet blade
blizzard will keep nerfing specs that craft weapon in hc week and scale bad every time to than revert changes or even buff & not learn from it
pastel cedar
maybe he was on PTO
lavish shoal
are they alive
vapid sundial
lavish shoal
are they at work
vapid sundial
yeah
tribal cosmos
Im a bit confused
glass mortar
zac did u notice
tribal cosmos
Why is m+ coming out late
velvet blade
i dont think blizzard cares too much, we are almost less popular than evokers
glass mortar
tribal cosmos
Like who decided this
floral mulch
is outlaw the best raid spec?
normal forge
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/228241791831375873/1482175147136782386/im...
reduaced
velvet blade
is outlaw the best raid spec?
criminal sentence
vapid sundial
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/228241791831375873/1482175147136782386/im...
ATleast we know its not ai writing the notes!
floral mulch
criminal sentence
why lol
glass mortar
TRUE
velvet blade
outlaw is prob top 3 worst raidspecs in the game
normal forge
is outlaw the best raid spec?
it is the best spec to play, not sure about number
vapid sundial
outlaw is prob top 3 worst raidspecs in the game
Alright lets not doom like that
until we see mythic
tribal cosmos
Hey question
vapid sundial
floral mulch
outlaw is prob top 3 worst raidspecs in the game
people on sub said is outlaw lol
tribal cosmos
Wtf are we supposed to do next week
vapid sundial
people on sub said is outlaw lol
Dont listen to sub chat
tribal cosmos
M+ isnt out
velvet blade
people on sub said is outlaw lol
it prob is
vapid sundial
refuse to admit it
craggy barn
m0 daily
tribal cosmos
We just finish raid in 2 days and afk ?
normal forge
Wtf are we supposed to do next week
LFR, normal, hc
craggy barn
raid and m0
mystic berry
people on sub said is outlaw lol
Their propaganda got to blizz
craggy barn
m0 reset is daily for champ gear
tribal cosmos
Straigjt dog shit
vivid vessel
people on sub said is outlaw lol
we have been playing sub in raid prog every tier for the past 4 expac
velvet blade
if you raid for aotc play outlaw, but if u play any kind of HoF or early CE - ur literally griefing your guild by playing outlaw
vernal star
Wtf are we supposed to do next week
We have Preys to do.
vapid sundial
Getting class advice from sub chat is like getting farming advice from your gynecologist.
vapid sundial
xdddddd
tribal cosmos
Where the fuck is m+
lavish shoal
gonna practice that on my keyboard here at work
vapid sundial
what rotation
normal forge
if you raid for aotc play outlaw, but if u play any kind of HoF or early CE - ur...
true
vapid sundial
HAHAHHA
dire rampart
builder finisher
normal forge
my guild focus is 5 ish mythic raid bosses, so, im sticking with law, but sometimes i get bench ngl
vapid sundial
U build and then u finish
lavish shoal
currently at the front desk just finished assisting a guest
vapid sundial
literally it
lavish shoal
now i gotta start practicing my sub rotation cause aint no way u gonna catch me on this dogwater spec this szn
vivid vessel
whats my sub rotation
strike dance sec tech blades strike evi strike evi evi strike evi evi strike evi evi strike evi strike evi strike evi strike evi evi strike evi strike evi
mystic berry
now i gotta start practicing my sub rotation cause aint no way u gonna catch me ...
you gonna practice pushing 2 buttons bud?
dire rampart
strike dance sec tech blades strike evi strike evi evi strike evi evi strike evi...
and after that last evi?
tribal cosmos
SHURIKEN BP
lavish shoal
strike dance sec tech blades strike evi strike evi evi strike evi evi strike evi...
1 q r 3 1 3 1 3 3 1 3 3 1 3 3 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 3 3 1 3 1 3
thanks
practicing rn
full dawn
is r sectec? macro that shit for one less button bro
vivid vessel
and after that last evi?
can chain back with dance sec tech into evi strike evi strike evi evi strike evei strike evi strike evi evi evie evie
dire rampart
full dawn
macro sectec/dance and macro coup/black powder, then sleep
mystic berry
macro sub then turn press and hold on
lavish shoal
if cp < 5
then cast shadowstrike/dance
if cp > 5 and sectech off CD
then cast sectech
if cp > 5 and sectech on CD
then cast evis
harsh forge
we dodged the nerf lads
harsh forge
hype!
lavish shoal
is this macro actually doable tho?
/cast coup de grace
/cast black powder
full dawn
yes
velvet blade
yep
vivid vessel
is this macro actually doable tho?
/cast coup de grace
/cast black powder
sub ahd too many buttons
had to remove one
velvet blade
just gotta keep removing buttons
and aoe stops - oh wait, no thats bad
lavish shoal
nah
lavish shoal
rogue doesnt get one ofthose bro
full dawn
i put pickpocket on my bars with a keybind just to feel like i have something... more
lavish shoal
3 is way too many zac
how am i gonna reach 3 different buttons
i only have 5 fingers
velvet blade
i put pickpocket on my bars with a keybind just to feel like i have something......
i still have symbols etc binded, i cant bring myself to empty my bars
mystic berry
atleast we can rest safely knowing that assa is more cooked than us
vivid vessel
my sub ui is litteraly
dogshit
just cause there is nothing to track
it gives me
actual
full dawn
i still have symbols etc binded, i cant bring myself to empty my bars
oh yes, this is the way friend
burnt dragon
theres literally
grim spear
i put pickpocket on my bars with a keybind just to feel like i have something......
Adding pickpocket into the rotation is actually pretty cool
You can use it in combat, it doesn’t take a GCD (I think)
vivid vessel
look normla outlaw ui, nothing wrong here
grim spear
and with the glyph it even lets you turn into the appearance of your target
vivid vessel
and then turbo dogshit whatdehelly is that 3 cds to track
burnt dragon
these bars are EMPTY lol
velvet blade
and then turbo dogshit whatdehelly is that 3 cds to track
WIDE ICONS TO FIX VISUALS KEKW
mystic berry
and then turbo dogshit whatdehelly is that 3 cds to track
the icons are larger zac
lavish shoal
W icons
mystic berry
this is cheating
velvet blade
velvet blade
even put sprint up there
vivid vessel
(half a burger for the americans )
tight kernel
Where my sub boys at
copper radish
and then turbo dogshit whatdehelly is that 3 cds to track
And 3 buttons to press 
ashen void
(half a burger for the americans )
but how many cheeseburg units
normal forge
was this even necessary? rets are so powerful already
wicked ether
most played class/specc
clever wasp
was this even necessary? rets are so powerful already
Let me guess he did good in ur m0s?
lime lake
normal forge
Let me guess he did good in ur m0s?
yes, i have to work with the facts i got
clever wasp
Crazy stuff
normal forge
they didnt beat me overall, though
normal forge
i had a ret giving me lot of troubles on undermine tier, so idk, they feel strong now
clever wasp
fervent ledge
so for this tier we playing sub or law in the end of the day
clever wasp
what do u think
fervent ledge
if i knew i was not asking xd
normal forge
i belive sub is still preferable for pushy scenarios, like, going for early ce
clever wasp
if i knew i was not asking xd
Sub raid outlaw m+
tribal cosmos
0.2%
normal forge
(2) Set Outlaw: Blade Rush's damage is increased by 30% and its damage to your primary target is increased by an additional 15%.
(4) Set Outlaw: Blade Rush's cooldown is reduced by 6 sec and it increases your damage dealt by 5% for 8 sec.
cold tide
Where is outlaw in the notes :<
Same place as usual
cinder relic
Where is outlaw in the notes :<
What did u want from outlaw
tiny onyx
30% all dmg increase
formal thunder
guys, what's our expected % gain/loss from balancing notes
mystic berry
My sadness is only balanced by the absolute beating that unholy took
normal forge
What did u want from outlaw
more ST dmg using m+ build
cinder relic
30% all dmg increase
Do u really think that the spec was bad enough to get a buff like that
tiny onyx
Do u really think that the spec was bad enough to get a buff like that
i was just kidding, but i thought we'd see all 3 specs get something
cinder relic
I'm just surprised sin got nothing mostly
lavish shoal
same
mystic berry
sin getting nothing was a huge surprise
normal forge
I'm just surprised sin got nothing mostly
true
tiny onyx
because they said theyre doing 4 pass throughs
so i thought everyone was going to get a little present
mystic berry
for law I expected more sidegrades, address some qol and spec iffy design
lavish shoal
is outlaw aoe comparable to sub
clear turtle
especially with the delay from the last pass of prepatch+ additional ptr/beta testing+preseason data
lavish shoal
was doing way more on sub in m0s etc this week but idk
worthy surge
mobs die too fast in M0 but the black powder nerfs seem pretty significant
clever wasp
is outlaw aoe comparable to sub
Literally beats them
M0s are a horrific metric to compare urself with anyone
mystic berry
mobs die too fast in M0 but the black powder nerfs seem pretty significant
I am not convinced that we will perform better than sub in m+, mostly due to their tier set being way better than ours
tiny onyx
Does anyone have that screenshot or post of them announcing the dates of the tuning. March 17th is one of them but whats the other 3
mystic berry
Does anyone have that screenshot or post of them announcing the dates of the tun...
23
I think
24
worthy surge
I am not convinced that we will perform better than sub in m+, mostly due to the...
I think we'll be better overall in M+ by a decent margin with no further changes in terms of overall dps
but subs a lot easier to play imo
mystic berry
but subs a lot easier to play imo
yeah, this is a huge factor
worthy surge
at the end of the day unless you're an outlaw lover like most of us in this channel most rogues will just default to sub
mystic berry
It was already like that
sub being popular and all
mostly due to sub being the go to spec for ages now
worthy surge
but based on what I've experienced I think Outlaw is probably better overall in M+ and its more fun to play to me
vivid forge
Problem is whats the spec to go in raid
bright plaza
yup most will be gearing sub for raid, including their crafted weapon. so outlaw may be better overall in m+, most people will be better geared for sub. unless its a rogue player who just does m+ only
dire rampart
but based on what I've experienced I think Outlaw is probably better overall in ...
been trying it but i fuckin suck, some pulls feel great but like 80% oof
clever wasp
Problem is whats the spec to go in raid
Sub
naive pecan
Love outlaw, but have terrible internet( can’t play reaction spec
And low haste+huge input lag = worst exp ever
worthy surge
been trying it but i fuckin suck, some pulls feel great but like 80% oof
yeah its definitely a lot harder to play properly due to using your procs properly and watching your CDs and make sure youre using them efficiently
Outlaw single target isnt bad either by any means but it suffers from downtime more than sub does
dire rampart
feel like i am, maybe not the opportunity procs
worthy surge
Well things die really fast if everyone in your group is good in M0 you dont really get to press your buttons
bright crane
So what do you guys think the move is gonna be for m+
worthy surge
like in my random pug groups im top dps in every dungeon as outlaw but its randoms like its not what id consider competitive players
or even relatively good players
but I have time to press my buttons, if I was playing with players that know what theyre doing and burst well I think id get outdpsd
but this reads like a huge aoe nerf to sub and a pretty big ST buff
dire rampart
like in my random pug groups im top dps in every dungeon as outlaw but its rando...
in random pugs ret dh sub rogue all ahead
abstract frost
@vivid vessel
dire rampart
damn
vivid vessel
<@352916297262301194>
buddy i have been playing sub every tier prog ever since forever
i know ball
im a big baller
i have knifes
i can stab
stabby stabo
abstract frost
Send this to murtaz
formal thunder
ye, but do you have knaves? and wenches?
abstract frost
apprently
vivid vessel
i think murtaz is not coming back rn
worthy surge
these feral druid buffs do seem crazy
clever wasp
is feral good now
One of the highest simming specs, and crazy in big keys
vivid vessel
send it to the raviolli druid you play with
loutrebite
bright crane
Send this to murtaz
Me rn. Probably gonna play surv
clever wasp
However, playstyle is actually the worst a class has ever been
outer meteor
mystic berry
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923682607857685/1281275821075595374/6a...
a decade getting away with it
analog wolf
Does anyone know if outlaw can be used in mythic raids? Apologies, English isn't my first language
clever wasp
Ofc lol
mystic berry
Does anyone know if outlaw can be used in mythic raids? Apologies, English isn't...
Shitposting and dooming aside
its not a terrible spec overall
the utility is shit though
but thats a rogue problem
cinder relic
That matters not at all for raid
mystic berry
yeah
cinder relic
Because the utility rogue provides for raid, is good
clever wasp
U need 1 rogue so play whatever spec u want, noone plays this class
analog wolf
Shitposting and dooming aside
I see what you mean, ty for the reply
worthy surge
Does anyone know if outlaw can be used in mythic raids? Apologies, English isn't...
yeah if we stay unchanged our single target is still very strong as long as we get uptime but sub will pull ahead once they have tier on single target most likely
clever wasp
yeah if we stay unchanged our single target is still very strong as long as we g...
We sim below outlaw still
errant terrace
Does anyone know if outlaw can be used in mythic raids? Apologies, English isn't...
yes it can, unless you're in the top 0.1% of raids, you're not fucking up your raid by playing outlaw
vivid vessel
We sim below outlaw still
cant remember the last time sub simmed higher or even close to outlaw
worthy surge
yeah but outlaw suffers way more dps loss from uptime loss while sub doesnt really care that much if theyre not doing efficient dmg outside of dance/tech window
vivid vessel
also cant remember the last time we played outlaw in raid
not saying we wont play outlaw in raid 
clever wasp
also cant remember the last time we played outlaw in raid
Sepulcher
clever wasp
fathom bramble
unless you cleared sepulcher and took a 2 month break from the game before the outlaw buffs...
vivid vessel
wasnt sepulcher a big sub raid
clever wasp
saw jpc fondle some bosses on it during rwf
vivid vessel
i mean i remmeber watching them try outlaw on lords of dread
and it was bad
and they all got benched
but idk if that was hc
or mythic
prolly hc
clever wasp
🔥
normal forge
for me rogue is about the good old times and its fun, but if u are looking for meta dps for CE raiding, maybe should look elsewhere
clever wasp
for me rogue is about the good old times and its fun, but if u are looking for m...
Rogue is meta for CE
near rock
who would dare enter mythic as outlaw
🙋
worthy surge
I mean if youre in a top 100 guild or wtv yeah idk if rogues that great or makes the cut but if youre just going for CE during the season you can definitely do that as a rogue no problem
worthy surge
yeah you can definitely CE as outlaw too
unless we get nerfed for some reason
which would be insane but hey
never know
fathom bramble
there is at least 1 person in the top 100 playing law on most fights
worthy surge
like outlaws fun to play and its doing decent damage like idk would be nice to be the #1 spec in the entire game but then wed get dumpstered in the next patch probably
somber plank
No Outlaw changes at all? Is the spec actually fine, or are we just being ignored?
clever wasp
No Outlaw changes at all? Is the spec actually fine, or are we just being ignore...
its fine
fathom bramble
I mean outlaw will probably be the same in raid it always is
junior folio
just play what is fun, numbers will go up and down
vivid vessel
its easy
fathom bramble
"good enough" "fine" "you can get hall of fame"
vivid vessel
its not bad enough to get buffed
fathom bramble
it's never the best it is waht it is
vivid vessel
and its not good enough to be played over sub
analog wolf
who would dare enter mythic as outlaw
lol zac, I started playing Outlaw in M+ in TWW Season 2 after watching your videos
junior folio
outlaw isnt bad for the people who wonder if outlaw is good enough
vivid vessel
lol zac, I started playing Outlaw in M+ in TWW Season 2 after watching your vide...
im sorry bro
pastel quail
I mean outlaw will probably be the same in raid it always is
If this is true then it’s headed for dead last
somber plank
So you’re saying we’re in a good spot where we don't need any changes?
analog wolf
np bro , I didn't get the Keystone Hero achievement, but I cleared all 19s🥹
vivid vessel
gg cuh
fathom bramble
If this is true then it’s headed for dead last
it's very rarely dead last
clever wasp
lol zac, I started playing Outlaw in M+ in TWW Season 2 after watching your vide...
Crazy stuff i actually stopped playing it after watching those videos
vivid vessel
whatdehelly
pastel quail
it's very rarely dead last
It was dead last on manaforge
lavish shoal
i quit outlaw after zac spawned
fathom bramble
but is not the usual case
worthy surge
we get a 12% dmg buff in pvp while sub gets a 10% nerf kek
analog wolf
Crazy stuff i actually stopped playing it after watching those videos
yeah KIR build was too hard for me, so I mostly played H.O build
junior folio
any spec could be bottom, boomies often are
clever wasp
junior folio
tis not me i swear
craggy quiver
is the ring set good for outlaw?
clever wasp
where are our buffs
What buffs did u want lol
rancid bone
where are our buffs
we're the highest simming rogue spec so.......
worthy surge
all rogue specs 10% more dmg
lethal gate
Outlaw sim was highest in common though
clever wasp
If anything feel bad for assa, they were cheeks and now even more
lethal gate
Yeah I expected sin a big buff
junior folio
assa being dogwater is actually depressing
lethal gate
Idk what datas they are researching
graceful gyro
can you use a dagger in off hand or is that a major loss?
clever wasp
I mean still irrelevant going into hc week
lavish shoal
dagger offhand good
worthy surge
I would have liked them to fix that actually
junior folio
the numbers aint even the problem for me, i just hate not being able to play the game cuz i pressed crimson tempest twice
fathom bramble
!oh
ornate heathBOT
A dagger offhand is ~1% better than a slow weapon mostly because of 
Zero In, and also slightly more 
Instant Poison procs. Energy is not affected by offhand speed.
It is possible large ilvl differences can matter more than this bonus so use 
Raidbots Top Gear when in doubt.
hearty stump
fathom bramble
dagger in offhand is now far enough ahead that you should always use one
gaunt phoenix
the ub change should be sub specific
analog wolf
Is using a dagger in the off-hand more important this season than last season?
fathom bramble
yes
it is now enough of a difference that it is unlikely you will ever wear a slow offhand
slim hare
dagger oh is good imo you can craft your dagger for prog and still have a bis in outlaw
fathom bramble
the ilvl gap would have to be extreme
fathom bramble
there's also no good daggers in raid so you might want to craft a dagger just for law in general
sonic pawn
No outlaw changes guess we op as fuck
analog wolf
got it
worthy surge
yeah dagger in the OH makes a difference
slim hare
whatch us get nerfed after heroic weel
worthy surge
whatch us get nerfed after heroic weel
that would be brutal but Id be surpised because 90% of rogues will be sub
sonic pawn
Wouldn't put it past blizzard tbh. I wanna see blizzard finally make the move to seperate M+ tuning from raid tuning similar to how PVP is done in modern WoW
quaint wharf
there's also no good daggers in raid so you might want to craft a dagger just fo...
this would be actually be the dream tbh, to be able to flex
worthy surge
I just mog the kingslayers for my OH they sheathe on ur back
fathom bramble
I've been using the artifact wep since legion anyway
rancid bone
just mog any back sheathing sword
fathom bramble
even when given the opportunity every possible sword/axe/mace/fist just looks worse to me
worthy surge
yeah I basically only use my legion relics for all my mogs
crisp elm
must not have thunderfury
fathom bramble
I have better thunderfury
crisp elm
gasp
worthy surge
I have both
upper hawk
can anyone summarize the outlaw tuning
grim spear
gotta say, hero talents might genuinely be one of the worst designs in the history of wow classes.
lucid sparrow
fathom bramble
gotta say, hero talents might genuinely be one of the worst designs in the histo...
the problem they are having is that they can't add anything interesting since it is wholly an addition
anything as interesting as borrowed power was would bloat the game to hell after 3 expansions
so we get hero talents, apex talents, and whatever next expac has
incredibly minior passives that range from not noticeable to hardly there
grim spear
disappointing cross spec synergy, no real rp flavor, meaningless complexity
chaotic balance, restricts future design space. It’s just terrible
fathom bramble
I would also say the goal of having a talent point every level hurt them as well
if it was just 1 big thing for the entire budget that you got at level 80 I suspect they would have been more substantial
but then again maybe not
grim spear
It was designed to give each spec two options, but the whole point of a talent tree is already to provide choices. It doesn’t actually create more builds
if not fewer
prisma lantern
can anyone summarize the outlaw tuning
bright crane
Give us back mop talents 😎
worthy surge
nothx lol
mystic berry
criminal words
dark ember
gotta say, hero talents might genuinely be one of the worst designs in the histo...
Agreed. DF was peak talents. Felt like expression. Now it just feels like failing a test.
worthy surge
DF probably felt better because the system was fresh
timid idol
No outlaw, no ww, no ass 
shadow trellis
gotta say, hero talents might genuinely be one of the worst designs in the histo...
Should have been wiped after tww. I have 4 talent trees in my talent tree rn 😭
timid idol
Sub got a nerf as well
shadow trellis
Sub changes are healthy
timid idol
I've repeated this a million times by now but
I miss Perma ar Perma flurry
Does anyone find it INSANELY FUCKING UNSATISFYING when you get a bte proc now but you have to use builders again?
Bte procs were so fun cause you ended up going pew pew pew pew like idk how many times in a row based on luck
Now it's so fucking anti climatic
worthy surge
perma bf was rlly fun to play with but the current version is decent, in larger aoe packs its one button for full cps
timid idol
YOOOO A REFRESH!!!!! oh hold on gotta get some points...
worthy surge
but yeah on small packs bf feels kinda meh
timid idol
The overall gameplay just felt more fun
The spec simply felt good with Perma ar
It does feel ok now as well, besides the insanely lame bte proc change
But still...
worthy surge
I mean its changed a lot since I last played in BfA
short fable
does outlaw feel like a shell of itself still
timid idol
It has yea
worthy surge
legion outlaw was so cool
I felt so strong
100% crit out of stealth legendary shoulders were so crazy
timid idol
Idk bro blizz is so insanely careful to not give outlaw anything broken fun like having the new dps increase bte passive plus full point reset but they break the shit out of unholy without any regard to balance every patch
charred comet
another round of no outlaw buffs 
worthy surge
I mean idk what outlaw was like in TWW but I find it pretty interesting right now
like its pretty active
charred comet
tww outlaw was a bit more apm heavy
timid idol
Yea
worthy surge
thats kinda crazy
timid idol
It was hella fun
worthy surge
its pretty apm heavy right now
charred comet
but crackshot outlaw was so sick
timid idol
Yessss
gaunt phoenix
Tww was as far as you can possibly push it
charred comet
i already miss it
timid idol
Same
fossil lintel
we had AR 100% of the time with it's lower gcd
quaint wharf
tww outlaw felt like it flowed more imo - this version feels clunkier
worthy surge
this version definitely felt rough under like 18-20% haste
charred comet
tww outlaw was pretty chill, until u went into stealth window
timid idol
just uncap outlaw ..
Lol sweet dreams
worthy surge
but as soon you kinda hit that it feels decent
glass mortar
damn this seasons crafted sword goes kinda hard
doesnt match my set
but i could see it
worthy surge
but im personally enjoying this version of outlaw, I do agree that proccing BtE refresh with 4 combo points is kinda not great and wanting a dagger in your OH should not really be a thing
long barn
!addon
keen belfry
Tww was as far as you can possibly push it
Looking back on it is always crazy. Tricker tree alone had more than A LOT of specs
But it’s why I loved it!
cobalt token
but im personally enjoying this version of outlaw, I do agree that proccing BtE ...
Embrace swords
Refuse 1% better offhand
And use sword
worthy surge
its difficult when the sword in your offhand sims for 1k less than the dagger
cobalt token
Easy
worthy surge
its more that I crafted a sword because I wanted to play outlaw and now I have to craft a dagger at some point (probably)
and then get rid of the sword
instead of just keeping the sword as my offhand
cobalt token
its more that I crafted a sword because I wanted to play outlaw and now I have t...
I mean
A crafted sword mainhand
Isn't bad at all
worthy surge
no its not its great
worthy surge
lol cant yet right
fickle relic
Outlaw still ignored smh
frail veldt
@vivid vessel seems like with ayije you cant have your buffs be hidden when aura isnt present
dense coral
worthy surge
outlaw doesnt seem to be in a bad spot
I think overall rogue buffs would be really nice
but outlaw feels mostly fine where its at
flat pebble
but outlaw feels mostly fine where its at
You can't be serious.
loud quail
Hey what poison do you use ?
celest cobalt
none, you play mage
worthy surge
You can't be serious.
im pretty serious, whats so wrong with outlaw in your opinion
gaunt phoenix
Hey what poison do you use ?
instant + numbing/atrophic
atrophic in raid, generally numbing in keys until pushing high
fickle relic
Outlaw needs to have at least half of ars' gcd reduction always active, with respective tuning if needed. Maintaining buffs with that awful gcd without infinite blade flurry sometimes feels worse than crackshot in tww. I'd even say that crackshot was ± funnier than current balance
high totem
just uncap outlaw ..
honestly worst feeling ive had (first timing outlaw this season) seeing mobs come in and others ramping while you plateu
tough trellis
Outlaw needs to have at least half of ars' gcd reduction always active, with res...
crackshots fun but fuck pressing vanish
fickle relic
crackshots fun but fuck pressing vanish
would it be better if you had to press shadow dance instead?
loud quail
instant + numbing/atrophic
atrophic in raid, generally numbing in keys until pu...
never Improved Wound Poison with the talent ?
celest cobalt
outlaw damage profile doesnt work in modern wow, have no prio and little burst, no good util for M+ or raid, but assas is tuned for shit and sub is boring as fuck. jm2c (im a scrub)
tough trellis
would it be better if you had to press shadow dance instead?
i dont play sub bcuz i dont like pressing shadow dance
im just saying that yeah crackshot is more fun but the playstyle is cancer, the flow currently imo is much better
glass mortar
never Improved Wound Poison with the talent ?
if theres dungeon content with relevant healing u swap to wound before that pack/mob generally
and u can sacrifice some dr for improved wound if u want
dont know if theres any relevant applications in s1
you are always instant for damage
tough trellis
u feel like a god for 6s, then the pack dies and the tank chain pull and its literally more optimal to hookshot out of the dungeon and spec sin from that point onward
fickle relic
yeah, but you also had infinite ar and blade flurry
glass mortar
u know u dont get restealths in patchwerk sims right
but people struggled with it and it felt awkward ig. it wasnt an actual weakness
new BF feels way more awkward
costs too much
fickle relic
would've been cool if they somehow kept it in the game
tough trellis
yeah, but you also had infinite ar and blade flurry
i do miss infinite AR and BF
lowkey i just miss underhanded upper hand
glass mortar
infinite AR had to go
wish it hadnt been knocked this low, hope they plan to scale it up over the expac
fickle relic
just give us lower gcd, a half of ar or something at all times
worthy surge
I dont have the reference point of outlaw in TWW but as a returning legion/bfa outlaw player, outlaws interesting its a little clunky I dont disagree but it doesnt feel bad
its more fun than sub
and im always going to advocate for rogues dealing more dmg cuz im a rogue main
but I wouldnt say outlaw is bad
fickle relic
not bad doesn't mean there's nothing to improve
elder crane
hey guys is there a command for talents or not yet?
worthy surge
im definitely not saying its perfect and that they shouldnt try and improve it
glass mortar
its moreso the usual pattern for outlaw historically is if it doesnt have high tuning to make it stick out, it doesnt get played in raid
its viable people just prefer the other specs
usually due to fight design
fickle relic
it's just that context is, that there are no outlaw changes and they have only 4 days left
glass mortar
being ok is fine for most of us
worthy surge
I mean I think rogues in general right now are just ok
glass mortar
tuning like this means people like zac prob wont get to play law on prog tho
worthy surge
I wish rogues were meta
but i think its more of a rogue in general problem
than an outlaw specific problem
cinder relic
I will say every season I hear this discord sing the blues about being mid
And then it ends up being very good in raid in one way or another
quaint wharf
in my short experience with wow, being mid is a good thing. because you then avoid nerfs
glass mortar
so good its the least played rogue spec every single season
worthy surge
than be amazing and then get gutted
high totem
so good its the least played rogue spec every single season
aoe cap feels terrible
glass mortar
i believe this will be our endboss tier
worthy surge
but im an outlaw enjoyer and im glad sin sucks kek and uh yeah im glad outlaw seems good enough I dont have to switch specs
celest cobalt
id love to hear from bliz why rogue is always either bottom or 2nd to bottom class for popularity.
vivid vessel
And then it ends up being very good in raid in one way or another
Uh?
vivid vessel
Hm
cinder relic
id love to hear from bliz why rogue is always either bottom or 2nd to bottom cla...
It's been unpopular since literally wrath of the lich King. It's not any modern issues
vivid vessel
Tbf they haven't tried much
Every class in the game gained stuffs for keys for example
Rogue has not changed in term of utility and things you bring to the group
worthy surge
a lot of rogues became demon hunters when they first came out
vivid vessel
Sincr I started wow
glass mortar
its funny how quickly we made gains then lost them
vivid vessel
Actually you bring less now cause before single target ccs actually put casts in cds
glass mortar
we were the last class in the entire game to get an aoe stop
finally brought up to C tier m+ cc
cinder relic
a lot of rogues became demon hunters when they first came out
Well like I said, it's been unpopular since wrath of the lich King lol
vivid vessel
I'm sure this doesn't help with popularity
cinder relic
So like, way before DHS
glass mortar
then they removed it 2 expacs later
celest cobalt
there is just 0 reason to bring an outlaw rogue to keys or myth raid.
glass mortar
cinder relic
there is just 0 reason to bring an outlaw rogue to keys or myth raid.
Rogue provides a raid buff for mythic raid
So it'll always see play
worthy surge
Well like I said, it's been unpopular since wrath of the lich King lol
ive never really bothered looking at class pop
ive always just enjoyed my rogue
vivid vessel
We are also one If not the only class not bringing an actual raid buff for keys
worthy surge
but I knew a lot of guys who were rogues who became demon hunters lol
vivid vessel
I think it's clear they haven't tried making it more popular
cinder relic
Same. Only reason I keeps tabs on it because people point towards modern trends for its unpopularity
celest cobalt
thats why we see so much representation in RWF and in hiigh keys right? :/
cinder relic
thats why we see so much representation in RWF and in hiigh keys right? :/
..?
It's seen play in every rwf kill
sand nova
DID THEY NOT TOUCH U GUYS ???
vivid vessel
I don't get touched
cinder relic
Can u tell me where it hasn't been played?
sand nova
IM CRYING WHAT WERE THEY THINKING
vivid vessel
I keep safe
high totem
IM CRYING WHAT WERE THEY THINKING
is this in a good way or bad way
worthy surge
I mean sub aoe took a decent hit
sand nova
IM JUST SHOCKED THEY ONLY TOUCHED SUB
loud quail
it's not like outlaw is unplayable guys
hollow sonnet
IM CRYING WHAT WERE THEY THINKING
man it’s 7am i woke up and my day already ruined
loud quail
just play the class you want to enjoy that's it
vivid vessel
man it’s 7am i woke up and my day already ruined
It's 5 am actually
bronze wadi
just play the class you want to enjoy that's it
the spec i enjoyed just feels less fun to play
worthy surge
the spec i enjoyed just feels less fun to play
I think its fair to say that if you played TWW and liked it better in TWW
sand nova
i cant believe they have done this
worthy surge
but I dont think Outlaw is bad
cinder relic
I think the only surprising thing in the patch is no sin buffs
sand nova
“ class tuning “
loud quail
I dont know guys, i come from feral for years, and I really enjoy outlaw more than feral this expansion.
vivid vessel
<@352916297262301194> seems like with ayije you cant have your buffs be hidden w...
Ye I know but as I said arcui can't really do it either cause the buff is just set to alpha 0 but it's still there and take a spot in the group
cinder relic
I dont know guys, i come from feral for years, and I really enjoy outlaw more th...
Nice. Keep playing it. It's a fun spec!
Ignore the dooming
frail veldt
Ye I know but as I said arcui can't really do it either cause the buff is just s...
ellesui can which is nice
you can set them to hide while inactive
worthy surge
yeah I think Outlaw is decent right now for sure
cinder relic
It has its issues but YK, games are meant to be fun
worthy surge
hard to say good in this discord but id lean towards good
elder crane
!talents
bronze wadi
I think its fair to say that if you played TWW and liked it better in TWW
I like it better in SL and i liked it better in DF
vivid vessel
you can set them to hide while inactive
Yes but can you set them to hide when active, it's way different
frail veldt
ah interesting
vivid vessel
Because I would understand why it's not possible to do with add-ons rn
cinder relic
hard to say good in this discord but id lean towards good
I think rogue is in a good spot.
worthy surge
I didnt play much SL I kinda quit the game early in SL so I dont really have an opinion there
frail veldt
yeah me neither
upper surge
@vivid vessel @glass mortar youtube is playing BANGERS today
vivid vessel
ah interesting
I mean that's what we were talking about no?
frail veldt
no I mean hide when INactive
vivid vessel
<@352916297262301194> <@185854083964469249> youtube is playing BANGERS today
Idk any of these cuh
loud quail
i just dont get why people whinning about it. It's not like you aint able to perform at high level what so ever. Meta is for people who are doing real progress, it's about less than 2% of the playerbase. Dont be a brainwashed player who watched tons of tierlists that doesn't mean anything.
player >> Class
errant fractal
It's 5 am actually
oh God I just now saw the time
vivid vessel
no I mean hide when INactive
But that's just default behavior wdhm
sand nova
i just dont get why people whinning about it. It's not like you aint able to per...
yeah then why does everyone re roll specs when something is obviously strong af
i agree overall
worthy surge
I think rogue is in a good spot.
Yeah I mostly agree I havent done high keys in a while though so well see how it feels when I get there but in terms of damage like im doing great im destroying most noobs in M0s
vivid vessel
yeah but ayije doesnt do it
It does wdym, like if my buff isn't up I don't see it
loud quail
yeah then why does everyone re roll specs when something is obviously strong af
Brainwashed mentality.
vivid vessel
Normal default behavior
worthy surge
which means like nothing
mystic berry
i just dont get why people whinning about it. It's not like you aint able to per...
Its more about perception than whatever you want to play.
worthy surge
but im destroying noobs rofl
frail veldt
It does wdym, like if my buff isn't up I don't see it
hmm mine didnt do that
leme see again
mystic berry
M+ and raiders look at tier lists because they dont want to bother
vivid vessel
I mean there is a point when you just don't get to play when you don't play meta
glass mortar
their allowed to enjoy doing that just like ur allowed to enjoy playing outlaw everywhere cause
sand nova
assuming rogues get invited
cinder relic
i just dont get why people whinning about it. It's not like you aint able to per...
Truth nuke
vivid vessel
This game has already a shit ton of downtime when you do LFG keys
glass mortar
idk zac is there, i feel like u got to play most of last season and u were getting hardcarried by ur party
it was so funny
vivid vessel
If you do off meta LFG keys you just spend hours not playing
frail veldt
glass mortar
both the other dps providing raid buffs to buff u guys
glass mortar
u bring literally nothing
and ur getting mogged
because outlaw does negative dps
but u still got to compete
desert tendon
best class, wrong spec
frail veldt
best class, wrong spec
yeah I was helaing bgs
mystic berry
I mean, this "just play whatever you like" is fine as long as you do casual content
frail veldt
been playign shadow
vivid vessel
idk zac is there, i feel like u got to play most of last season and u were getti...
I still ended up playing sub in halls also cause we couldn't time 22 with outlaw
mystic berry
anything else, it starts to make your game unfun
frail veldt
bring back crash
vivid vessel
Tho we couldn't time 22 in the end either but that's another issue our classes were just too bad
glass mortar
if outlaw can compete on the top end when its that worthless surely we must always be viable
vivid vessel
Unlucky
frail veldt
glass mortar
in dungeons anyway
frail veldt
theres no setting to make them hide when not up
upper surge
because outlaw does negative dps
sir if you have 3781% haste you are the best rogue spec
frail veldt
idk why yours did it zac
desert tendon
if outlaw can compete on the top end when its that worthless surely we must alwa...
u cute
i mean it
vivid vessel
if outlaw can compete on the top end when its that worthless surely we must alwa...
But you can litteraly carry these keys tho?
Anything can compete at this lelvel
It doesn't matter
upper surge
weran carries delves
vivid vessel
If you are good enough
upper surge
HOF delver Twist next week
vivid vessel
theres no setting to make them hide when not up
Because they just do
glass mortar
ive been playing fallout
upper surge
76?
frail veldt
Because they just do
they literally dont haha
blissful zinc
i just dont get why people whinning about it. It's not like you aint able to per...
I mean the reality of the situation is if you aren’t playing an S-tier class once you reach a certain threshold of key level, good luck getting invited without a “tip”
glass mortar
4
vivid vessel
I think you have the arcui setting that is still enabled mewo
frail veldt
glass mortar
idk if im even gunna raid next week
frail veldt
I dont have arcui on though
upper surge
idk if im even gunna raid next week
where would you raid
vivid vessel
That's why
glass mortar
game just feels like playing in sludge
frail veldt
so I dont think thats true
vivid vessel
It's true
glass mortar
alt run friday night
frail veldt
glass mortar
with ansh and ext
vivid vessel
Cause I remember my buffs were still here whne. I stopped using arcui
frail veldt
works fine for ellesui
upper surge
with ansh and ext
yo thats wonderufl
frail veldt
whatd you reset
upper surge
i hope you go
glass mortar
i need to actually grind some gear instead of just doing WQs and hunts and not playing the game if im gunna go tho 😩
we'll see how i feel this weekend
vivid vessel
Bro
loud quail
I mean the reality of the situation is if you aren’t playing an S-tier class onc...
You can still perform. Been playing feral for years, i could do mm+ that I wanted and do raids. If you struggle, you can still find a guild to do all of that. I don't see the issue here.
vivid vessel
Grind some gear
vivid vessel
You can still perform. Been playing feral for years, i could do mm+ that I wante...
It's not about performing or not, you can't get invites
LFG in wow has a lot of downtime
vivid vessel
If you play off meta you litteraly multiply that downtime by 5
loud quail
That's why I'm telling you, find a guild
blissful zinc
It's not about performing or not, you can't get invites
Exactly
mystic berry
That's why I'm telling you, find a guild
some guilds tell you to roll sub lol
worthy surge
I mean idk bro like I run keys, I make friends running keys I get reinivited like unless youre talking about pushing for like top top percentiles
I think youre kinda being ridiculous
glass mortar
?
worthy surge
and if you want top top top percentiles then play the hyper meta classes
vivid vessel
Idk we don't play the same game anyway
glass mortar
idk whats rediculious about "the meta specs get invites way faster then all the others"
vivid vessel
So no point discussing
glass mortar
thats just been the case
for like 10 years?
nobody is surprised
its just not exciting to be mid
and its understandable some people like to jump to meta specs so they can get easier/faster invites
mystic berry
for like 10 years?
I dont think no one is disagreeing with that, we are just pointing out that wanting to be meta is not wrong
blissful zinc
but that happens to most specs out of the meta
If your class is “shit” and you don’t bring a CR or a BL it makes it even more impossible to get into a key
cinder relic
Make friends and u can play whatever
glass mortar
doesnt matter how dumb it is that it happens across the whole game
worthy surge
Make friends and u can play whatever
yeah like I have never had an issue getting invites ever
in my life
cinder relic
I also never have issues with invites but I just do weekly keys lol
blissful zinc
Make friends and u can play whatever
My friends are ass at the game
worthy surge
and ive been in M+ since legion when they released M+
mystic berry
Make friends and u can play whatever
Its the only reason im not rerolling
loud quail
yeah like I have never had an issue getting invites ever
They are just crybabies
vivid vessel
Xd
bronze wadi
They are just crybabies
calling people brainwashed then calling them crybabies is peak bait
vivid vessel
Why am I even talking to 2 dudes that are clearly just doing 8 weeklies a week with friends
blissful zinc
If you actively pushed keys as a solo player you would understand the struggle
vivid vessel
Like
mystic berry
Idk he is pissed that we are pointing out that outlaw will not get invited to high keys
vivid vessel
We aren't even playing the same game
blissful zinc
Why am I even talking to 2 dudes that are clearly just doing 8 weeklies a week w...
Elite ragebait
sand nova
hesrighttho
blissful zinc
Not even ragebait
From their side i mean
cinder relic
Ur right Zac u shouldn't ever conversate with such plebians
worthy surge
in Legion id run 50 keys a week I was a CE raider not in a great guild but still got CE
vivid vessel
We don't play the same game so doesn't apply
loud quail
calling people brainwashed then calling them crybabies is peak bait
I'm sorry, but the majority of people here complaning about outlaw is brainwashed
vivid vessel
It's just how it is
worthy surge
I think youre kinda just making the game less fun for yourself
mystic berry
zac will you stream law or go full 2 buttons?
frank finch
sand nova
no its just bad faith to be like “ HEHEHE FRIENDS PREVENT THIS LOL “
vivid vessel
zac will you stream law or go full 2 buttons?
I will stream outlaw day 1 next week
bronze wadi
I'm sorry, but the majority of people here complaning about outlaw is brainwashe...
its not brainwashed when its backed up with experence
mystic berry
I will stream outlaw day 1 next week
nice
vivid vessel
Will do m0s on 2 chars then hc raid
cinder relic
It's not bad faith it's just a solution to a problem
glass mortar
what day zac
loud quail
its not brainwashed when its backed up with experence
Experience of what ? Watching youtube tierlists ? come on.
blissful zinc
I will stream outlaw day 1 next week
Can u not stream outlaw for a while so we get buffed?
vivid vessel
Be there or be square
bronze wadi
Experience of what ? Watching youtube tierlists ? come on.
?
glass mortar
experience of sitting in lfg for 45-50 minutes to push 15s and 16s last season because all my friends quit the game
mystic berry
Experience of what ? Watching youtube tierlists ? come on.
I think you should take a deep breath
mystic berry
not a good place you are going
glass mortar
i knew what i was commiting to when i chose law
blissful zinc
experience of sitting in lfg for 45-50 minutes to push 15s and 16s last season b...
Nah ur brainwashed bro
glass mortar
i play specs i find fun
🤷
im not crying
but its not an unreal experience
many other people have
sand nova
It's not bad faith it's just a solution to a problem
its a bit like telling someone to breathe as general advice for not dying, its like chief…. he knows we all know
vivid vessel
many other people have
I'm pretty sure most people In wow LFG keys so
cinder relic
It's more like ur going bowling by urself, and ur like, damn this shit is so fucking boring and lame, and I suggest u invite some friends to make it more fun
blissful zinc
All they need is a solo que system like league and allows full groups at the same time
vivid vessel
I'm pretty sure it's just the vast majority of the playerbase that experience meta and trickle down meta
Also this doesn't even concern me I have a team
Why am I here
lime lake
prisma lantern
I mean straight up you don't even need friends.
Push your own key, you get to be the asshole decided to invite based on their class.
vivid vessel
Pushing your own key is such brainrot tho
blissful zinc
I mean straight up you don't even need friends.
Push your own key, you get to b...
If only it was efficient
glass mortar
push ur own keys works alright but its not as great as u think
vivid vessel
It takes legit 10 times more time
glass mortar
me when i queue my 16 and sit in lfg with no people queuing for 30 minutes
sand nova
fight for us zac
glass mortar
vivid vessel
You have to have like
sand nova
i wont let them misinterpret you on purpose
wispy valve
atleast you get to play the game rather than fly around town for an hour
glass mortar
what u need to do is never queue into almost full groups find the ones with 1/5 people
vivid vessel
You gotta be resilient
glass mortar
ive been pugging for years man idk its crazy to me how much flack fotmers get
cinder relic
But yeah if u want easier queue times just swap fotm
glass mortar
if ur bad ur bad and u deserve flack anyway
vivid vessel
Pushing your own key probably is more time consuming than sitting in lfg
blissful zinc
what u need to do is never queue into almost full groups find the ones with 1/5 ...
And apply to people with the lowest rio
cinder relic
For pushing keys anyway
glass mortar
but i understand people not wanting to experience this
glass mortar
i played the meta spec one season back in BfA, fire mage in the last tier
i never waited more then 30s for an inv
I was the MC
thats a fun feeling occasionaly
mystic berry
I mean, if you've chosen to play rogue you have a high tolerance for pain
glass mortar
would be nice to his us eventually
cinder relic
But for weekly 10s? Just raid mythic and have insane early ilvl. Easy shit
worthy surge
if your WoW "content" and "career" involves pushing keys, you should probably play fotm
cinder relic
True
worthy surge
I think youre the minority of players