outlaw

[glass mortar]

who told u i said that 😠

[vivid vessel]

Idk you said

[snow viper]

One can still hope. I do think it's helpful that this might be one of the worst states of balance on both a prepatch and beta that we have seen in a very very long time.

[strange kelp]

Arguably TWW prepatch was just as bad

[glass mortar]

i was joking that outlaw is some devs experiment to design a spec with zero design positives "strengths" and how high would they need to make its numbers for it to be viable like that

[strange kelp]

It just didn't have scaling issues from a squish

[glass mortar]

i wasnt even implying anything about tww or midnight viability

😠

[civic zephyr]

yeah it would have to be higher than everything else at baseline damage to be competitive

[upper surge]

You're so rude

[glass mortar]

only because i know you love it ludacris

[civic zephyr]

funny to describe it as "design a spec with zero positives" though

not wrong just funny

[fathom bramble]

pros: Pirate(?)
cons: Yes

[glass mortar]

i mean we had some decently positive aspects in our design before. id argue less then other specs

for almost as long as i played this spec outlaws ST was tuned well regardless of its aoe tuning, and usually ur ST and aoe builds were almost identical

i hate playing specs where u give up all ur ST to do aoe and vice versa

tww s3 was crazy

couldnt believe they managed to break that

[frail veldt]

We lost that pro man

[civic zephyr]

i just like the idea of pushing builders/spenders that actually feel impactful

like a big slow combat wep back in vanilla would slap when you hit sinister strike

[frail veldt]

Yeah we def don't have that lol

[civic zephyr]

right

[vivid vessel]

And then they gave that to every spec in the game and removed it from outlaw

[snow viper]

What does a tumble weed have to do with a pirate

[civic zephyr]

its like you use slow melee weps but you dont feel like it slows you down or makes the hits impactful, kinda weird in that way

[frail veldt]

We aren't pirates

[glass mortar]

not every spec but sure

[frail veldt]

We are just cowboys now

[glass mortar]

they have given more people that zac

which is w/e but taking it away from us was wild

[snow viper]

Brokeback mountain

[glass mortar]

well outlaw is not the hard hitting spec

and it likely never will be, hitting hard and hitting fast dont generally work well together

u would need to have half ur buttons doing no damage if u wanted half to do damage while you are competing for fastest spec in the game

[civic zephyr]

right but back before outlaw it felt like the weapons were more powerful, compared to daggers

is all im saying

[glass mortar]

sure i mean back in the day main hand stuff wasnt normalized

its better for the game that it is

[civic zephyr]

but now its like.. slower weapons, bigger weapons, fastest spec in the game anyway somehow

[craggy barn]

giving flurry to sub and sin was a mistake

[glass mortar]

combat/outlaw was always the "fast" rogue spec tho

i guess it was always sorta opposite flavor that way in it used slower weapons but pressed buttons more often

so your attacks didnt hit as hard

[fathom bramble]

it's a bit weird that the themes on our dagger and sword classes are like opposite of the weapon speeds

but it's fine

[civic zephyr]

yeah thats more what i mean, youd think the daggers would be fast but lower hits

[fathom bramble]

just pretend it isn't there

[civic zephyr]

yeah now you literally can, just xmog them daggers to swords

[glass mortar]

the only true outlaw fantasy is a slow mh and a dagger oh anyway so

💅

always has been

[frail veldt]

I mean

Daggers more of an opportunity weapon

If you really think about it

[olive spire]

where does the gun come from

[frail veldt]

Makes sense daggers are slower but more impactful

[fathom bramble]

that's why you have a dagger oh

[frail veldt]

And swords you swing more

But do less damage with on average

[fathom bramble]

makes drawing your gun a bit easier to have a smaller weapon to stow

[glass mortar]

good question where does the gun come from, are we dropping our sword on the ground to shoot it everytime? 😠

[frail veldt]

Yes

[fathom bramble]

the fact that the game itself makes daggers auto attack faster is probably the weird part

[frail veldt]

I agree

[glass mortar]

realistically the original flavor (you see it in our mastery name) is that of a duelist using a 1h weapon and then the offhand would be free or have a parrying dagger/gun

[radiant wyvern]

if you're duel wielding swords on outlaw you grow a third arm for the main gauche ofc

[glass mortar]

but nobody wants to play 1h only classes in rpgs for some reason so nobody ever makes them for me

🥹

[frail veldt]

I'll show you my main gauche

[glass mortar]

everyone just wants their anime dual wielding swordzerker

[radiant wyvern]

👽

[jolly geyser]

its like this

https://youtu.be/YwY19jgbjZM?t=31

[civic meadow]

Its a concealed pistol bruh

it be hidden in my jorts

[keen pumice]

dumb outlaw question - can offhand be a dagger or does it need to be 'not a dagger' ?

[jolly geyser]

it can be

[glass mortar]

offhand can be whatever ur second best weapon is

!oh

[ornate heath]

A dagger offhand is ~1% better than a slow weapon mostly because of Zero In, and also slightly more Instant Poison procs. Energy is not affected by offhand speed.

It is possible large ilvl differences can matter more than this bonus so use Raidbots Top Gear when in doubt.

[glass mortar]

can just trust sims

sorry best weapon (thats not a dagger) goes in the mh

[jolly geyser]

start of expansion that is usually just higher ilvl

[keen pumice]

wasnt there some weapon swap shenanigans in WoD?

[civic zephyr]

youd swap for killing spree

iirc

[vivid vessel]

Most specs now can play raid build in keys, most specs now do more st than outlaw while in keys builds, most specs now can do prio damage or even funnel while aoing

We lost all the edge we had

And people still think outlaw can ever be meta again

[glass mortar]

how many specs can do all those things

[vivid vessel]

While having the most disgusting tuning ever every patch

Litteraly every spec in the game

[glass mortar]

absolutely not every spec in the game

[vivid vessel]

Idk a single spec that has worse prio than outlaw

[glass mortar]

psure survival was giving up ~12% st to do proper dungeon build last season

[vivid vessel]

Ye bro we give up legit 20%

Or more I don't remember

We go from fateboud to trickster bud

[glass mortar]

i think specs that give up 10%+ st to play dungeon build are more common then not u just only play with the best specs in the game at the level u play and those always end up being the ones that do the things ur talking about

saying its all specs is a bit wild

thats all im saying

im not saying it wasnt bad for us

[civic zephyr]

ya outlaw can need work but your entire argument goes down the toilet when you start throwing around "literally every"

[vivid vessel]

Well I did say most specs

Cause it's true

[glass mortar]

i dont think its true

[civic zephyr]

you did say literally every, that's why i put it in quotation marks

[glass mortar]

i disagree pretty strongly actually my experience is most times i play new classes i quickly find out their making big tradeoffs in builds and it sours me to them

maybe it is in midnight tho i only played like 4 specs on beta

[manic nova]

guys what % of haste we looking for ?

in beta

[vivid vessel]

Outlaw has worse tradeoffs that litteraly assa

The spec being said to have dog st in keys

[glass mortar]

outlaw has had bad tradeoffs for 2 seasons out of like the last 20 tho

idk why u keep bringing up outlaw when i already agreed s1/s3 is dogshit and surprising because doing big ST and not giving it up for dungeon damage was always sorta outlaws thing before that

outlaw is bad what do u want me to say

i just dont agree that even close to a majority of specs in the game arent making this tradeoff as well

the best specs in a season all tend to be ones that dont need to make this tradeoff

[vivid vessel]

I think the time when outlaw had this edge is over starting tww

[civic zephyr]

yeah but also having upsides. not just some flatline no prio no funnel damage profile

[vivid vessel]

Tww hero tree introduced funnel for legit every spec in the game

[craggy barn]

outlaw has been paying for the sins of BFA

[civic zephyr]

your original question was interesting weran like what percent better does outlaw need to be than everyone else's baseline for anyone to even care about it

[vivid vessel]

Idk I have yet to see outlaw just be same st as top spec

[glass mortar]

i mean i already got my answer which is too big and it doesnt matter because they never let specs have big gaps in raid ST

[vivid vessel]

Apparently that is already too much to ask

[civic zephyr]

it can't be

[vivid vessel]

Like why can't outlaw just top a fight like fractilus

Xd

Why does it have to be bottom on fractilus

[civic zephyr]

that would mean everyone else is dogshit outside cooldowns

[vivid vessel]

It's litteraly the only fight we are good on on paper

[civic zephyr]

or doesn't have any

[vivid vessel]

What

[civic zephyr]

outlaw's damage profile is super flat. for outlaw to win with that damage profile, that means everyone else's peaks need to be worse than their valleys

[vivid vessel]

What

[cinder relic]

No

[vivid vessel]

Tf you saying bro

[cinder relic]

Outlaw for the most of a 3was just disgustingly undertuned

There have been plenty of tiers where this isn't the case

[civic zephyr]

if outlaw doesn't go up much with cds and you want it to beat everyone else then doesn't everyone else have to do real bad if they also have cds

[vivid vessel]

No I want it to beat everyone else at the end of the 5 min fight bro

Not during cds

??

Like it should

[civic zephyr]

i will mspaint you a graph if you jsut wanna spam literally and question marks

[vivid vessel]

My spec with 0 upside cause I don't have CDs and I require full uptime can't beat burst specs on a 100% uptime fight

You are braindead I don't need a graph

Ty tho

[civic meadow]

Outlaw paying for bfa and SL m+ still GG

[cinder relic]

Chill

[glass mortar]

i feel like there is just a miscommunication happening here and zac u came in hella aggro for no reason

[civic zephyr]

right all im saying is for outlaw to win in that situation the burst specs have to be worse by quite a bit outside cooldowns so that the cooldowns don't take those other specs above outlaw

[vivid vessel]

He told me he would draw me a graph bro

[glass mortar]

yes that is already the case

[cinder relic]

Outlaw just needs to be tuned higher lol

[vivid vessel]

Who tf is agro

[glass mortar]

CD specs generally do less "filler" damage then outlaw

sometimes almost half as much

[civic zephyr]

right, that is all i'm saying

outlaw has to be just straight up baseline chilling at quite a bit of dps for cds and burst to not take other people above it, and it doesn't seem like they are tuning for that

[vivid vessel]

No?

Eh

Im so confused rn

You know you can just buff the spec till it does more or same st

Than the other specs

Over 5 min

[civic meadow]

What zac is saying is that the burst specs should clearly burst and be doing higher damage than outlaw, but by the time the fight ends outlaw should be on top of the meters by design, on an uptime fight

[glass mortar]

if a fight is 5m+ with no damage amps high uptime then a spec with a profile like outlaw should probably end up near or at the top

[civic zephyr]

maybe, depends on length and other people's cooldown windows, the flatline boring class is always going to lose randomly when your killtime shifts it and makes it good for someone else's cd pattern and shit. it's just flat and boring and won't ever win in those situations

[glass mortar]

with CD specs that have well aligned cds competing

[civic meadow]

^^

[civic zephyr]

it's just not exciting

[glass mortar]

then every single other aspect of raid design (downtime, burst windows, reducing kill timers) all favor the cd people

[civic zephyr]

you never have that "oh shit this is my fight" moment unless the fight is literally "stand there with high uptime and do nothing"

[glass mortar]

they all already mog u on those encounters and always will

[civic zephyr]

yeah the fight can't be interesting, or have prio targets

[vivid vessel]

Bro the issue is that if I lose on a 100% uptime fight what happen when the fight is suddenly dimentius

[glass mortar]

thats pretty much the only way to make flat damage an "upside"

[vivid vessel]

Where I have 0 uptime and people get to get their CDs back during intermission

And there is a damage amp

Outlaw does tank damage yes

[civic zephyr]

maybe, sometimes tanks are pretty OP

[vivid vessel]

So you need the spec that is flat to top 100% damage fight

Ok whatever you are ragebaitng

[civic zephyr]

look noone is saying it is any good lol, it's just a design that this game hasn't accounted for

i'm gonna leave i really don't have the patience for this lol

gl

[vivid vessel]

Ty

[civic meadow]

outlaw is legit so bad on dimmy id be surprised if they legitimately even thought about that spec entering that arena

[vivid vessel]

People told me I was crazy when I said the spec was dogshit based on raid testing btw

And then it got 20% aura buff

And here we are

Legit the worse spec in the game by an infinite amount

[civic meadow]

[vivid vessel]

Never seen before

[livid pewter]

fixing ui is so much more fun than playin this class right now

[glass mortar]

its ok they wouldnt leave us as the worst spec in the game in all content 2 seasons in a row

have some faith zac

4% aura template buff after week 2 to make us meh for the rest of the season

[vivid vessel]

3?

I refuse to consider s2

[glass mortar]

????? we were not even close to the worst spec in the game in s2

[vivid vessel]

It was litteraly a forced accident

[glass mortar]

ok kspree mulligan is more fair

i get where ur coming from

[vivid vessel]

And you were killing yourself on cd with ks

[glass mortar]

yeye

but still

numerically speaking

[vivid vessel]

If they didn't fix the bf bug we were the worse spec in the game

It wasn't intended to be a buff

So it refuse to take it into account

[glass mortar]

tfw u get 1 good season in the entire expac and the devs force you to play with the most dogshit button in the game to do it

[vivid vessel]

When we forced their hands

[glass mortar]

zac truly can never be happy

😩

[craggy barn]

we will blast in heroic week, then get a 15% aura nerf bc we are blasting before anyone else has gear

[glass mortar]

that aint us anymore brother

[vivid vessel]

Ye that's won't happen

[glass mortar]

scaling should be pretty normalish, maybe on the low end

u should not expect to be power spiked early anymore tho

mastery is still bad but having 2 ok stats is a major improvement scaling wise

[craggy barn]

we will be utter trash in heroic then, then get a 15% nerf bc we are utter trash

[glass mortar]

TRUE

ok it was a banger when they nerfed us, what was it s1 w2?

and then less then a month later had to buff us by almost double the nerfed amount

[craggy barn]

yea

[glass mortar]

i lost all faith in blizzards math along time ago

[craggy barn]

fun times

[vivid vessel]

they are just so clueless bro

forget about it

[glass mortar]

its just a chatgpt slot machine

[craggy barn]

week 1 expansion nerfs are 🤡

before anything even happens

[glass mortar]

they outsourced their calculators or something behavior like that is truly hilarious

[terse fractal]

I'd take mid dmg if they'd turn blade flurry from a hard cap to a soft cap. Feels so horrible competing with the tank for DPS on the big pulls. It's what I hate most about the class.

Give us that and a raid buff, I'll never complain again

[vivid vessel]

people were like "Ok you get uncapped bf but its 30% now"

:D

[lethal oak]

[craggy barn]

u dont understand, if they uncap us then we will be too over powered in aoe!

[light meteor]

Sup guys any recomendations for second trinket on pre patch? First one being cursed stone idol ofc

[glass mortar]

sims should work ok but theres not many people caring to minmax on prepatch ngl

[fervent garden]

besides swapping a few gems from vers to crit, i've done nothing to my squished 161 gear from s3. no point.

[glass mortar]

could check logs and see what people are using

probably the same stuff is whats good tho

[light meteor]

aight i guess thats fair didn`t mean to realy go into min maxing just wondering what to buy for chips on this toon

[low glade]

unholy is probably my fav rogue spec atm

[fossil lintel]

I miss killing myself on cd with KS

[keen belfry]

Remembee outlaw?

[fossil lintel]

Damn those were the times

[ionic citrus]

I'm not ready to lose permanent tricks when fatebound becomes strong.

They should make it a regular talent

[fossil lintel]

I'm ready to never press KS again

[ionic citrus]

amen to that

[light meteor]

agree

[upper hawk]

does supercharger affect the apex talent chance t hide a bullet?

[fathom bramble]

it will if it's not bugged, but I'm unaware of anyone checking to see if it is

supercharger isn't particularly good anyway though

[wild rivet]

Outlaw doesn't take keystone talents in the beta ?

It felt very lack luster as far as feel and dps

[cunning swan]

we pray for 2/2 ace

[waxen scarab]

bro is this fr

[tender wedge]

2/2 ace and 0/5 capstones, as god intended

[vivid vessel]

bro even 2 ace doesnt work

you have to build

after it proc

cause its only 5 cp

[cunning swan]

REALZ

buff it bro

u see how the 2nd point is less value than the first. get to work bro

[vivid vessel]

its so chopped bro

we got no dev tho

realz aint working on outlaw

[cunning swan]

o

[tender wedge]

He already used all the buffs blizz let him hand out on devourer anyway

[cunning swan]

whoever does outlaw is gonna ball out last day

nothing but net

[waxen scarab]

alo

[cunning swan]

I think they do tier list based on what they think is fun

idk how they get sub into the s tier

[untold wadi]

its definitely for real

but it's also definitely ridiculous to take it seriously

if it's meant to be for performance

[tender wedge]

Tier lists are definitely performance art

[upper surge]

Bruh

[fossil lintel]

Please don't give them ideas, or next patch they'll drop the proc chance of the first point by half as well

[cunning swan]

https://tenor.com/view/monkeys-paw-paw-monkey-gif-17535679

[tribal cosmos]

people will log on for tbc

damn

[pastel sierra]

new launch is always fun

[craggy barn]

they should make a fatebound talent called fate intertwined that changes tricks of the trade into a new spell that does exactly what trickster tricks does 🙂

or even banger idea

replace one of the capstones

[fathom bramble]

Fate intertwined: Designate an ally to transfer 50% of your threat generated to. Copy 5% of the allies healing taken for yourself.

[craggy barn]

or new tank spec spell, that steals threat from a designated target, and gives u and the target passive DR

😛

i just want a tank rogue tank spec real bad, so that i can keep playing my favorite class when im forced to play tank 😠

[hasty warren]

sod tank rogue was so fun

[low glade]

is strafing part of the rotation?

[long barn]

Does anything else reduce ADR/KeepitRolling besides restless blades?

[keen belfry]

the natural flow of time.

[long barn]

Thanks Zelda

[pure folio]

yes

[formal knot]

what about unnatural flow of time?

[pastel sierra]

100%

The more you jiggle the better your luck on BtE reset and RtB roll will be

[wild rivet]

Anyone else think outlaw feels not good on beta or just me

[vivid vessel]

welcome to the champion club

[keen belfry]

hcampoion, club./

[wild rivet]

I was really not wanting to play sub this xpac

But at this rate feels hopeless lmao

[fierce mulch]

reroll dk /dh like all the other rogues

[low glade]

he thinks sub is any better

[wild rivet]

Another preseason dooming hooray

is outlaw preforming better than sub in keys right now? or is that cope too

[covert kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/does-it-really-matter-does-it-matter-does-it-matter-earth-does-it-really-matter-solar-system-does-it-really-matter-earth-zoomout-gif-7930525090867029432

[wild rivet]

just curious people keeep dropping it in S tier in their made up tier list

and im curious as to why lmao

[viscid oyster]

Hey, per guide "The finisher rule is important: :trickster: Trickster does not finish at 5 CPs. It is actually a substantial loss to do so repeatedly."
why tho? can anyone explain?

[pastel sierra]

What are they even rating in their tier lists

How cool the spec name sounds?

[lime lake]

outlaw is o tier

[cinder relic]

It was, it got nerfed, probably still solid considering sub also got nerfed

[long barn]

Does restless blades work with super charger?

[cinder relic]

Yes

[long barn]

Like if I send 5 with 2 does it do 7 CPs

Ty

[real falcon]

any one know of any addon that can change the combat font

[runic gulch]

Fatebound has Delivered Doom which deals damage at 5cps or more whereas trickster doesn’t

Also for BtE, you’d just be reducing the chance of an ace proc

Not sure if it will change for trickster too once we get scoundrel strike from apex talent

[fathom bramble]

it's probably mostly that 5 combo points is the cutoff for generating a coin

[runic gulch]

Coup you can just send at low cps I think, if bf isn’t up to avoid wasting unseen blade procs seeing as pistol shot triggers it now too

[fathom bramble]

coins having a flat value incentivizes finishing at lower counts, but it has a minimum of 5 so you end up just doing 5

[runic gulch]

Oh yeah that too

Actually yeah probably mainly that tbh

[fathom bramble]

it does make me wonder what kind of evil rotations we could get if there was no minimum to trigger a coin

[runic gulch]

Being able to send consecutive BtEs with 1 point in ace lol

[glass mortar]

yea thatd be pretty op

getting to press bte again if ace procs

cant even imagine

[strange kelp]

What kind of game design would support this trickery. We all know you have to constantly build up before each finisher

[frail veldt]

Which guide is this from?

Idk about substantial loss but the reason we finish at 6cp as trickster is just a matter of cp efficiency

Less globals spent using finishers the better but we don't want to severely overcap cps and waste them so 6 is the sweet spot

Why is it the sweet spot? It's just the rule that does the most damage in the sim there isn't really an explicit why

[lethal gate]

Nerfing -10 off melee was really necessary? 😢

[shadow trellis]

Is there anything that would not hurt damage so you can take hit and run?

[lethal gate]

Change name to run

[shadow trellis]

😭 \

[shell fossil]

probably something diabolical

like preparation or improved adrenaline rush

[gaunt phoenix]

if you finish at 5cp you kind of get stuck at 5cp

as PS gives 4 and SS is likely to give 4

BtE also does not like being spent at 5cp in general, you want to consume Zero In with high cps

[stark grove]

Does it have to do with this talent?

[gaunt phoenix]

that talent just gives you the possibility to finish at 6cp (and another one gives 7cp)

so technically yes

[stark grove]

Does "increased effects" in devious stratagem mean simply a linearly step up per combo point or something extra

[gaunt phoenix]

just the linear effect from going from 5cps to 6cps

[wintry solar]

@mighty pivot red or green?

[slate plaza]

is outlaw still the hardest spec chat

now that theyre making it fuckass easy

i heard they dumbed ts down big time (havent played in like 8 months)

my ego has been ruined

[wintry solar]

When every spec is just as easy, the bar is super low in terms of most complex.

[copper radish]

1,2,3,4 rinse repeat

[twilit scarab]

so i know everything is saying trickster is performing stronger, and def in aoe, but what about raid st?

[gaunt phoenix]

In prepatch trickster should be better everywhere

for st and aoe

[twilit scarab]

I got ya. Is there anything special i need to do or keep in mind compared to the FB spend everythign as fast you can style?

[gaunt phoenix]

On beta, they are super close, but fatebound should be slightly ahead and feel better resource wise

[covert kestrel]

Plus everytime you flip a coin you get 1g so thats a fun flavor for rogue now

[proven ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-dog-scared-driving-speed-gif-17175923473683955109

[twilit scarab]

lmao wait really?

[covert kestrel]

no

[gaunt phoenix]

not really, just trickster does not finish at 5cp ever

you also have to use killing spree which is a bit lame

[twilit scarab]

Ok so i need to be making sure im at 6 or 7 everytime

[gaunt phoenix]

ye

[twilit scarab]

oh idk i actually really like the ability but i was just checking to see if i need to be paranoid about over capping or making sure to spend at full

[frail veldt]

Finish at 6cp+ doesn't mean you get to choose 6 or 7 though to be clear

If you are at 6 you should always use finisher never a builder in that situation

[twilit scarab]

ye of course

[frail veldt]

Fasho just figured I'd clarify

[twilit scarab]

ty all for the help!

[frail veldt]

Never know how new people are

[twilit scarab]

no i appreciate it alot! Im def newer, and this will be my first season maining rogue instead of war

[frail veldt]

Nice nice

[gaunt phoenix]

killing spree is lame cause it hits random targets., you lose priority damage

[proven ocean]

Love u solo

No homo

[gaunt phoenix]

also channeling it during adrenalone rush feels like a massive waste

[proven ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-dog-scared-driving-speed-gif-17175923473683955109

[gaunt phoenix]

but you have to hit it or you lose cdr

[gaunt phoenix]

https://tenor.com/view/stephenvlog-kepler-cat-astronocat-stephengif-gif-13257175

[proven ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/stephenvlog-kepler-cat-astronocat-stephengif-gif-13257175

[upper surge]

https://giphy.com/gifs/Ev477g37MJORyOWfdG

[shell fossil]

https://tenor.com/view/cry-toggle-cry-revolver-ocelot-cry-ocelot-cry-little-big-planet-gif-13708296211113666115

[dawn tundra]

Been a while since I've peaked my head in here... Should I keep the Netherspike I bought or replace it with the Volt-Ohmmeter?

Volt-Ohmeter is apparently overall BiS, but I like the look of the Netherspike and it's my BiS for raiding.

[shell fossil]

buy a trinket if you're talking dinars

[gaunt phoenix]

ur weapon doesnt matter a whole lot other than ilvl

voltohmeter is just vers haste

[dawn tundra]

I already have my BiS Trinkets.

[shell fossil]

ye might as well

[gaunt phoenix]

u can transmog normal weapons to daggers now

btw

[dawn tundra]

I heard.

[quick ridge]

Solo when you say not to open with ambush without hidden opportunity, what would you recommend to open with instead?

[gaunt phoenix]

just whatever is next in priority

[wintry solar]

Cheap shot

[gaunt phoenix]

With everything ready you open with adrenaline rush into roll the bones

[wintry solar]

Let your inner rogue shine

[gaunt phoenix]

then blade flurry if applicable, blade rush, bte

[quick ridge]

Okay, thank you. I’ve been trying to get muscle memory adjusted. Stealth feels so odd after the patch, I think. Outlaw doesn’t really feel like a rogue to me in a lot of ways

[frail veldt]

you dont really need to stealth in between packs

[gaunt phoenix]

Stealth is just movespeed yeah

[quick ridge]

Yeah, that’s certainly how it feels

[quick ridge]

It makes me feel like I’m playing a fighter or duelist or something rather than a rogue

[frail veldt]

yeah people were pretty vocal in the past expac and a half that they really didnt like outlaw having interactions with stealth

they thought it wasnt very outlaw

[gaunt phoenix]

You pretty much are like a duelist/fencer with a gun

And yeah having to use vanish and stealth was vehemently disliked by a lot of ppl

[vivid dune]

i have a very stupid question

what makes people say outlaw is a pirate

is it the names of the old rtb buffs

[gaunt phoenix]

In legion outlaw was full on pirate, but they have since moved away

[vivid dune]

it does not feel particularly piratey

oh ok

[quick ridge]

Stealth feels like the same niche for me as it does for my boomkin, which is very unexpected for a rogue, but I’m not opposed to it. It’s been fun to learn!

[frail veldt]

it used to have pirate themed abilities

but yeah its been stripped away

[wintry solar]

Mewo HAD to say his piece

[frail veldt]

it had pirate stuff even in tww

I think we still might have some piratey pvp talents

that they forgot about haha

[wintry solar]

Drink up me heartiest and boarding party

[quick ridge]

“Rolling the bones” as a term has some link to piracy, no?

[wintry solar]

Not really

[vivid dune]

ah ok

[wintry solar]

Dice used to be made of animal bones

Ankles mainly

[vivid dune]

i kinda like the highwayman theme rn (i apologize if that is offensive to any long term outlaw players)

[quick ridge]

I want a bone dice set for dnd >.>

[wintry solar]

There are no highways in Azeroth >:(

[lime lake]

bros never seen a goblin highway

[wintry solar]

Streets at best

[frail veldt]

knucklebones

[lime lake]

they literally have a massive highway in kalimdor

plus all the overpasses in undermine that we only see parts of

[wintry solar]

Ankle bones of sheep and cows

[frail veldt]

I wish they would lean into anything

[frail veldt]

goats

[gaunt phoenix]

reminds me of this ancient reference

[frail veldt]

LOL

[lime lake]

real

[frail veldt]

robber in liquidation

amazing

[quick ridge]

The night elves had an intricate interstate system. You’d take I170 to get from suramar to ashenvale

[wintry solar]

Outlaw if it were IRS themed

[lime lake]

should never have become a cutthroat highwayman

[vivid vessel]

guys

hi

daily check

is outlaw stil ldead

[wintry solar]

Ideal?

No

[vivid vessel]

yo popo !

you remind me of someone

[frail veldt]

is it

someone

[vivid vessel]

a dear friend of mine from back in the days

[frail veldt]

or something

[vivid vessel]

was named poop !

i remeber him fondly

[wintry solar]

You're not gonna believe this

I AM POOP

[vivid vessel]

whatdehelly

[wintry solar]

Popo=Poop

[vivid vessel]

@mighty pivot another proof bro check it out

[frail veldt]

we knew all along

[wintry solar]

Next he'll discover water is wet

Smh

[quick ridge]

Is it though?

[vivid vessel]

idk about water

but you know what is for sure wet tho

[wintry solar]

Wut

[vivid vessel]

your mom

[frail veldt]

boom

[vivid vessel]

boom !

[frail veldt]

mic drop

[vivid vessel]

imagine getting got by a your mom joke in 2026

washed up bro

[wintry solar]

Can't even spell washed

[frail veldt]

wat

[vivid vessel]

washed

[wintry solar]

Wrong

[vivid vessel]

how is it wrong bozo

[frail veldt]

popo are you ESL also?

[wintry solar]

No

[wintry solar]

Because it is

[frail veldt]

you sure?

[vivid vessel]

how

[wintry solar]

You spelled it washed

It's spelled washed

[frail veldt]

popo do you smell burnt toast

you might be having a stroke

[wintry solar]

That's because I'm toasting bread and I like it burnt

[frail veldt]

you would

[wintry solar]

Mmm carbon

[low glade]

source?

[wintry solar]

||[REDACTED]||

[quick ridge]

Anyone ever think they’ll make a bard class?

[tender wedge]

No

[craggy barn]

if by bard u mean some musician guy, no

[upper surge]

https://tenor.com/view/lute-el-dorado-guitar-playing-gif-15717054

[craggy barn]

new class
Engineer
Heavy Metal, Mecha Suit, Turret Guy

heavy metal is the bard class

bc ETC

[gaunt phoenix]

if they wanted to make another support like aug

i dont think a bard sounds too farfetched

[quick ridge]

They’re so fun in dnd! It would be really neat to see them implemented in wow

[craggy barn]

they could literally add anything so the real answer is

[wintry solar]

Would they add an archetype not already established in lore?

[craggy barn]

id prefer they just start adding more specs i guess at this point

[lime lake]

evokers werent established in lore either

not this type of evoker anyway

[wintry solar]

Their magic is

The race is not

[lime lake]

the class isnt either

something that isnt a dragon using dragon magic

[quick ridge]

Music, art, inspiration as magic, that’s somewhat of a universal archetype I would think

[lime lake]

the closest thing in lore is thrall helping with the dragon soul

[quick ridge]

This would really be fun too

[craggy barn]

id like to see more warcraft inspired stuff, evoker is technically that since it originates within world of warcraft, and isnt really taken from outside inspiration as much

whereas bard is fairly generic

[wintry solar]

Dragon aspects have had their magic long before Thrall helped

[craggy barn]

and theres not much bardic inspiration (pun intended) in wow imo

[wintry solar]

It's exclusive to dragon race though

[craggy barn]

like shadow hunters

[lime lake]

dracthyr arent dragons

shadow hunters would be cool

[wintry solar]

They're dragonkin

[craggy barn]

theres a lot of warcraft inspiration for just a full class or spec based on engineering

[quick ridge]

What do you envision shadow hunters as? A new class? Spec? Maybe Hero talent tree?

[wintry solar]

There's like, 2 bards in the entire game and they're unnamed bards

[lime lake]

so more bards than there were evokers

[craggy barn]

spec, shaman

[quick ridge]

Really

[lime lake]

but i do agree i dont think bard is a very likely one

[craggy barn]

spirit based powers

[lime lake]

where tinker

[craggy barn]

shamans all about ancestor stuff

[quick ridge]

I hadn’t thought of it as a shaman before, but I could see that

[craggy barn]

makes sense

also since shadow hunters are primarily trolls

[wintry solar]

But it's based on magic that already exists

[craggy barn]

voljin was a shadow hunter

[wintry solar]

He was done too dirty

[craggy barn]

blade master as a spec for warrior would be cool

[lime lake]

songs as magic already exist

holy priest use hymns

[craggy barn]

move arms into more of a multi weapon fantasy

like literally being a master of arms

[wintry solar]

So bards would be in touch with the light

[lime lake]

you could also make bard more of a skald

and lean into a more warrior shout aesthetic

[vivid vessel]

popo

stop yapping

[wintry solar]

Fury and arms should have their names swapped

[lime lake]

true

fury has more arms than arms

how does that make sense

[wintry solar]

It never made sense to me

Maybe a little but there's no strong case imo

[craggy barn]

we need a proper throwing weapon spec

bring that shit back

[wintry solar]

That was cool yeah

[lime lake]

bring back glad stance

[quick ridge]

Monk maybe?

[craggy barn]

no

[wintry solar]

True

Glad stance my beloved

[craggy barn]

beast master as throwing weapon / melee hybrid

instead of surv being what it is

rexxar fantasy

monk needs to separate bird and dragon to 2 different specs

[pastel pendant]

You alrdy know the answer

[craggy barn]

bird is healer, dragon as caster monk

[lime lake]

actually thinking back

didnt the magic we saw in zereth mortis have musical themes

bard is using first one magic ez

[craggy barn]

yuh

[quick ridge]

Cosmic bards woo!

[lime lake]

that would require more shadowlands stuff though

so no thanks

[craggy barn]

sylv does banshee music magic shit

[wintry solar]

She screams

[craggy barn]

she also sings

shes a banshee

[lime lake]

her dead brother does too in the new dungeon

[craggy barn]

spoilers

wtf

???

[lime lake]

shut up nerd

[craggy barn]

bruh

bel ? more like belular

[lime lake]

wtf

too far

[craggy barn]

u rite

mybad

[wintry solar]

There's a guy that works at my Walmart that looks exactly like Belular

[craggy barn]

what if

rogue gets bard spec

and its a tank

[wintry solar]

I do a double take everytime

[lime lake]

maybe it actually is him

[wintry solar]

2 things I want the least and you're putting them in my favorite class?

For shame

[craggy barn]

bro i want tank spec rog

just let me play rog forever

i cant rn bc my guild has no one who can actually tank

[wintry solar]

Nuh uh

[craggy barn]

2 times rog CE and now im reduced to tanking

[wintry solar]

I should soft launch wow with him

Maybe he plays

[quick ridge]

How do you hold aggro as outlaw?

[craggy barn]

being better than everyone

heres my resume

sad i couldnt fix this parse

we were in extendo hell for months once we got to nk

and never recleared after killing dimmy

before prepatch

[lime lake]

my guild killed sh one time then decided never again

[craggy barn]

i skipped our 2nd kill of SH

since someone else needed the kill

i think i also was busy that day

s3 makes me sad

going from this in undermine to this in manaforge

full law into not law

[prisma lily]

!macro

[ornate heath]

Macroing gs is relatively "ok", be aware that it wont ever be entirely optimal: target swapping in m+ or putting it on a dying target for example. You can macro it to all your abilities.

[craggy barn]

what are u looking for

[river wing]

please no bard, it's literally something D&D invented back in the 80s (just like the druid)

the only new full class WoW needs is tinker/anything to do with tech, since Engineering was repeatedly blasted into uselessness and we have an overabundance of classes who derive their power from external sources rather their own skill/ingenuity, as well as multiple classes that are associated with DA NATURE™
but I know that if Blizz makes tinker, it will still suck from my own personal view because it's 99% guaranteed to be

1. tank (likely with a shield), maybe with a mech "ultimate"
2. healer
3. DPS that summons turrets and golems, like BM but probably more complex

my personal hopium is for 1h guns but let's face it, it will never happen, the one and only time they've added a new weapon type was with DH, and just like DH, it was only to screw over everyone else to promote their super special baby class (for that expansion, after that DH could go fuck right off lmao, why even make it)

[shell fossil]

they definitely have a bunch of stuff that didn't make the cut for ele sham lying around

roll some aug evoker stuff in there etc

we probs don't need another tank or healer maybe just something cursed like bloodlust on prot warrior

[wintry solar]

I always thought it was weird that warrior didn't have lust

Bloodlust is so warrior coded

Too late to add it now though

[river wing]

yeah ngl giving it to hunter instead of warr is like ????

[shell fossil]

ye also thematic if using it makes the warrior rage starved and at risk for going splat for a global or two

[river wing]

like okay I understand why you gave it to Sham rather than Warr initially, Warr was super dominant and Sham was the designated support

but by Cata that was basically out the window - and then Blizz gave it to Hunter and Mage instead, when Warr would make more sense than either

[wintry solar]

When blizz announced that another spec would get a brez, I honestly thought mage would get it and not pally

Not because I think they need more util but because nothing would surprise me less than mage getting more

[river wing]

mage is so hilariously broad with their powers
because arcane can do anything but heal, and then they got around that with the idea of healing through reversing time so that the wound never happened

[lucid stirrup]

I genuinely wish they introduced Mage healer spec, SoD healer mage was a banger

[magic shuttle]

Feels like pres evoker fills that sort of niche

[river wing]

tbh pally getting more is like
the second most likely thing after mage

[wintry solar]

True but frankly I'm still shocked mage didn't get it

[lucid stirrup]

unofrtunately yeah
plus SoD heal mage played pretty much like Disc priest

so I don't think we getting it but I've enjoyed it a lot

[wintry solar]

At least with pally it makes sense

I think if another class gets lust it'd be DK

[lucid stirrup]

I want warrior to have Brez

he shouts so hard it wakes the dead

[river wing]

DK and bloodlust? well, yeah, Unholy Aura used to be a thing I guess

but then again DK has brez already

and they don't like to put brez and bl together

the funniest thing would be to give Brew a bl I think

[magic shuttle]

Beer lust

[river wing]

yep

[wintry solar]

Used to have battleshout

And blood had hysteria which was like PI but drained your health

[river wing]

Horn of Winter before it was changed, yeah

[wintry solar]

[river wing]

yea...

[craggy barn]

int being the only main stat buff now is criminal

shamans getting a double raif buff is also criminal

shouldve made it mastery only and moved the auto attack thing to monk, then made rogue poisons do the phys damage debuff

[wintry solar]

Battleshout should be strength

[craggy barn]

horn of winter used to be that

[wintry solar]

Yeah

But now it's not and I demand reparations

[craggy barn]

bs being ap is fine. bring back horn

[wintry solar]

And let DK have something? No ty

[craggy barn]

remove ai to conpensate for giving dks something

or bring back kings and remove ai

kings aura instead of defensive aura

imo remove raid buffs but if they want them around, then at least make them all somewhat equal

shamans having a two in one buff is honestly insane

it makes sense that enh still wants the aa thing but its actually insane to have a 2 in one raid buff

[river wing]

enh has their own windfury enchant

skyfury is on top of that

[mighty pivot]

popo has reached the stage of acceptance

[mighty pivot]

are you choosing apples? green between the two

[wintry solar]

Reached?

[craggy barn]

enh had both before the mastery addition to windfury

[wintry solar]

Yall are years late to the party

You think cucumber seasoned with lemon pepper would be good?

[craggy barn]

just raw cucs?

or like u mean battered fried and seasoned

raw might be fine, but lemon pepper fried cucs sound good

[mighty pivot]

no

[wintry solar]

Raw

Who fries cucumbers

[craggy barn]

idk i was thinking zuccini for some reason

similar phallic green vege w/e

id say try it i guess

[wintry solar]

I love zuccini

[craggy barn]

fried zucs with lemon pep sounds good

[wintry solar]

Zucchini bread

Mmm

[craggy barn]

mmm

[wintry solar]

My great grandma had a recipe but she took it with her when she died

Kinda selfish tbh

[craggy barn]

frfr

[fresh raptor]

Hey guys, I’m completely new to wow but how important is starting your opener from stealth with ambush for outlaw?

[vivid vessel]

donty do that its bad

[fresh raptor]

Thank you, I thought so

[vivid vessel]

ambush is not a button unless you are talented into hidden opportunity

[fresh raptor]

Great, thank you

Is there any need to start your opener from stealth? When not talented into hidden opportunity?

[vivid vessel]

no

[long needle]

is there any way to track combopoints on the cd manager?

[weary goblet]

SenseiClassResourceBar
is your best bet

[long needle]

Thanks! Ill look into it

[gaunt phoenix]

Wangbar is also good

!ui

[ornate heath]

Resources:

• ArcUI / BetterCDM - common suites for buff/cd customization
• WangBar - displays CPs/energy, customize colors per point, faster than Sensei
• MSUF - recommendation for unit frames
• Platynator - recommendation for nameplates (Jundies Profile)
  Misc:
• Mute Cold Blood sound
• EasyReminders - can show poison reminders outside of instances

[crude oar]

Hey guys, noob question, is it worth to press kill spree in pure ST or not at all plese ?

please*

[tender breach]

is there any add on that tracks when hero last time warp etc is casted?

[formal knot]

you use it if you're talented into it

so if you're playing trickster basically

[crude oar]

Alrighty thanks

Yeah I am

[formal knot]

oops i thought it would shorten the message

well good reminder

[crude oar]

Wasn't sure if it was worth it, thanks !

[jolly geyser]

[vestal onyx]

is it possible to do a macro for Dispatch/BtE ?

[remote pecan]

it's not really worth it for damage you only want the Unseen Blade benefits and the CPs (unless i'm out of date with recent changes), cancel it with another finisher when you have full CPs.

[crude oar]

Noted, thanks for the tip !

[mighty pivot]

@wintry solar I saw 3 (THREE!) outlaw rogues within a span of 2 minutes. Outlaw is back?! ( )

[remote pecan]

more accessible maybe?

[jolly geyser]

No longer outlawed

Inlaw rogue

[wintry solar]

They're probably just seeing. Gotta check later

I've def seen a ton of outlaws since prepatch though

[mighty pivot]

they were all dog-geared so they might just be alts for the event

[snow hill]

That actually looks perfect. What add-on or setting is this?

[wintry solar]

Yeah thats what I'm thinking

[vestal onyx]

do you have advices to BtE enough ? I miss BtE when its up from CD ... if you have some tips ...

[shy meteor]

Rename the spec to police officer then

[jolly geyser]

sheriff

[north ember]

are we supposed to be hitting like wet noodles atm?

[pastel sierra]

Just you specifically

[untold wadi]

no, why would u do that

[cursive stag]

dry them and its fine

trust

[north ember]

just wondering, rerolled and started gearing, and GFs DH sims 2.5x as much with less gear xd

[round garnet]

Why does it say Blade Flurry at 2+ targets on the cooldown section but Blade Flurry at 4+ targets on the builder section? Say a boss like first boss i priory where theres 2 targets, you always wanna have blade flurry up as much as possible right? Is there any scenario where there's more then 1 target you dont wanna have flurry active?

Im kinda new to rogue, so if it's a dumb question im sorry xD

[formal knot]

you want to have blade flurry up to do damage to other targets, but at 4+ targets it becomes worth to use as a builder, as you can use it again before the first blade flurry duration is over

so at 2 targets for example you refresh it when its about to fall off, but at 4+ you use it to get cp also, so you use it more often, that's basically what it means

[round garnet]

Oh okey! thank you, makes sence 😄

[formal knot]

that list is copied from #outlaw-faq , probably better info there too, and in the wowhead guide

[round garnet]

Yea i just hoped in disc and saw that, i've been gearing for sub and learning it, wanna learn outlaw aswell so will take a hard look on faq and wowhead=)

WIll be maining shadowpriest but i wanna have a melee alt that i havent played much before and is good to have in pvp so rogue was the best pick=)

[north ember]

i got all 3 dinars available, what should i purchase, full mythic loot unlocked

[round garnet]

Do we want one 1 hand and one dagger? or two one hands?

[honest sparrow]

!oh

[ornate heath]

A dagger offhand is ~1% better than a slow weapon mostly because of Zero In, and also slightly more Instant Poison procs. Energy is not affected by offhand speed.

It is possible large ilvl differences can matter more than this bonus so use Raidbots Top Gear when in doubt.

[covert kestrel]

Just put a big icon in the middle of your screen with the cooldown manager. You can also use arcui or similar tools to make it glow when it's off cooldown

[pastel sierra]

Dimensius ring maybe, soulhunter boots, craft a belt, antenna could be better than prism on outlaw

[bronze wadi]

I’ve been seeing a lot of people leveling outlaw recently

So I’m gonna assume we aren’t getting complexity back anytime soon

[wintry solar]

Not TWW level no

[round garnet]

Now in prepatch, is the dmg from outlaw as good as sub dmg or how does it look?

[gaunt phoenix]

Prepatch tuning is rather poor in my experience

But it doesn't matter much

[covert kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/linkin-park-in-the-end-linkin-park-in-the-end-music-chester-bennington-gif-26242393

[wintry solar]

I like their new singer

[round garnet]

Yea she's awesome!

[tribal rain]

#showtooltips Between the Eyes
/castsequence reset=1 Eternal Black Diamond Ring,Dispatch
/cast Between the Eyes

-- "Eternal Black Diamond Ring" mean any toy without GCD and cd.
-- you must press 2 times to cast Dispatch.

[covert kestrel]

Me when press two buttons for two skills:
Me when press one button twice for two skills:

[untold wadi]

it's basic math

[keen pumice]

frost mage ffs

[mighty pivot]

my beta is trying to allocate 34GB of memory

[jolly geyser]

seems abit much

thats like 10 tabs of chrome

[prisma cape]

Sick mog bro

[arctic merlin]

no addons at all, just cooldown manager and resource bar

i've never been a big addon fan, just dbm and clique and i've still managed to hit around +15-16 in keys, so it's not holding me back much too

this is what i have, but someone suggested defensives cds being tracked too and i might do that and try to see if i can't overload it with cds

[jolly geyser]

Alonnie got that high rank glad UI

[arctic merlin]

nah it might be completely dogshit, don't take my word for it, i've not looked at anyone's

[jolly geyser]

no I mean high rank glads back in the day used default ui with some necessary addons,since tournament pcs etc

[arctic merlin]

ah, had no idea

i'm scared of pvp

did it a few times and got shit on

[mighty pivot]

you'd win if you were matched against @wintry solar

[jolly geyser]

I havent done any pvp really since mop

some bgs here n there

some early honor gear in expansions and stuff

well,conq also

[keen belfry]

got a new wooting

[hasty warren]

will the 30% haste be easy to have in midnight or we'll have to sacrifice crit for it ?

[cinder relic]

Pretty easy

[keen belfry]

is that true

wont 30% haste be hard to get in s1

[mighty pivot]

it won't be easy ye, you need haste on everything or something

[keen belfry]

i think you need fuill bis + haste flask + haste main stat on almost everything + the 300 haste ring and even then im unsure thats 30%

[young mango]

Hello guys, can someone share the m+ build please? i have seen RIO and there are different builds. i just started...

[keen belfry]

beta or prepatch

[proven ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-dog-scared-driving-speed-gif-17175923473683955109

[young mango]

@keen belfryprepatch

[arctic merlin]

so is it haste = crit > other stats or crit > haste > otherstats

[proven ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/whisper-ear-cat-rat-telling-bro-sum-gif-10289035967350308641

[keen belfry]

https://discordapp.com/channels/124169701881282560/1464390389044609166

[proven ocean]

real footage of realz telling solo the new changes

[keen belfry]

its basically, haste to a soft cap that allows us to function, then get crit

[arctic merlin]

haste seems very good esp with the energy problems i've seen recently, once there's no more tea and blade rush/adr is on cd it's difficult to get

[arctic merlin]

makes a lot of sense actually

[young mango]

@keen belfrywhich rog gonna be meta in midnight , any leak info ? 😄

[keen belfry]

none

thats what my srouces are telling me

(im my sources)

[arctic merlin]

sub is doing p good, no?

[keen belfry]

doiing p good now (all melee classes are mid comapred to the strong ranged specs) doesnt mean much

tuning dont matter until blizz is done tuning

and they aint done

[proven ocean]

https://tenor.com/view/wet-cat-gif-4802327955459959719

[arctic merlin]

yeah, ig it's going to be unholy dk for melee + one more slightly viable one and that's going to be it for melee

[cinder relic]

Sub or outlaw at this moment

But it could change next week, or the week after

[arctic merlin]

unholy dk doesn't even need to stay melee that much

[ruby cape]

am I missing something? why is outlaw sabre significantly more damage main hand than sword of omens even though the sword has a higher base damage? tested it with sinister strike too..

[covert kestrel]

#classic-discussion

[mighty pivot]

well this is about outlaw sabre and this is the outlaw channel...

[covert kestrel]

No this is about Gesetzlosensäbel and this isn't the gesetzlosensäbel channel

[ruby cape]

sorry guys I move it 😄

[mighty pivot]

you are in luck TimS, I know the answer and I wouldn't have seen it otherwise

[jolly geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/folk-son-baby-cat-ai-baby-gif-2350208044854177893

+100 ram

[covert kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/monday-left-me-broken-cat-memes-cursed-cat-nightmare-gif-11685974878066349245

chat do we think my 3070 ddr4 setup can last the current pricing fuckery

[jolly geyser]

im in the same boat

5700x3d,48gb ddr4 ram and 3070ti for some reason. (My pc exploded mid covid)

[mighty pivot]

ez for 3 more years

[jolly geyser]

wow runs great atleast

[mighty pivot]

AI bubble won't last that long

[short fable]

Hi it’s been a minute since I’ve caught up to the game, is the class worse or better post changes

[low glade]

https://tenor.com/view/uhhhh-steve-buscemi-uhm-stare-confused-gif-17035459

[north ember]

Thanks 😛

[short fable]

Did I come back at the wrong time

[jolly geyser]

depends who you ask

[covert kestrel]

Depends on your definition of right and wrong

Let's dissect Plato's allegory of the cave to discern our true vision of what outlaw means

[short fable]

The only thing I particularly cared for about the spec was the high apm vanish windows

[covert kestrel]

Welp got bad news

[short fable]

And hearing the between the eyes refund sound

Because it sounded like slot machines

[low glade]

https://tenor.com/view/how-do-we-tell-him-mr-krabs-spongebob-meme-spongebob-meme-gif-24063814

[cinder relic]

Depends who you ask

[short fable]

And the south korean in me loves hearing the gambling sounds

[low glade]

it's deffo not as high apm as you remember it from DF

[cinder relic]

If you liked vanish and perma ar, these changes suck

If you didn't like that, then the changes are good

[low glade]

and you're not getting as many ace resets

[short fable]

Fuck

[low glade]

0/2 based on what you like

[short fable]

So what even is the class anymore

[low glade]

best rogue specs on beta rn are arcane, demo, and unholy

[short fable]

LMAO

[cinder relic]

Outlaw is a spec about building and spending combo points

Using your cds on cd

[short fable]

So what you’re saying is that it’s indistinguishable from the other 2 rogue specs

[cinder relic]

No

[short fable]

Is that not what the other two rogue specs do

[cinder relic]

Outlaw existed like this for a majority of its lifespan

[short fable]

I mean I get that assassination is dots and subtlety is high burst with no damage downtime

[cinder relic]

Sin is about being afk, spreading bleeds, and doing big burst every 2 minutes

Sub is about small burst windows, kinda like how crackshot/uhu played where you spam infinite energy but then are afk outside of these windows, and then you have a big burst every 1:30

Outlaw is just a spec about keeping pace, building and spending efficiently, and using Cd's on cd

[low glade]

bro had the pasta ready

[cinder relic]

It's like fury warrior

[short fable]

But the thing that made Outlaw distinguishable from the other two was that it was always doing something and there was a good chance combo points were always full

[sacred rune]

!ui

[ornate heath]

Resources:

• ArcUI / BetterCDM - common suites for buff/cd customization
• WangBar - displays CPs/energy, customize colors per point, faster than Sensei
• MSUF - recommendation for unit frames
• Platynator - recommendation for nameplates (Jundies Profile)
  Misc:
• Mute Cold Blood sound
• EasyReminders - can show poison reminders outside of instances

[low glade]

you're honestly probably the most active as sub right nmow

even though sub is like 3 buttons

[cinder relic]

It's still always doing something

[short fable]

Every class is 3 buttons

[cinder relic]

It's just not doing crackshot/uhuh

Again the spec has been about not bte spam with crackshot for longer than it was

[low glade]

i still say uhuhuhuh out loud for the memories

[short fable]

That’s fair, I’m super biased since I started outlaw in season one of WWT

[limpid grotto]

keep in mind every class discord atm has more or less of the same sentiment of "I think we suck for X, Y, Z"

everyone got trimmed and some classes need the apex talent more than others

[cinder relic]

I mean yeah there's nothing wrong liking the crackshot uhuh stuff but yeah, it's no longer that

[lethal oak]

Is it still sub prison for prog?

[frail veldt]

If past expansions are an example though I think this "reset" will lead to new additions later on to the specs

[low glade]

too early to tell honestly

[frail veldt]

so this will likely be the most boring the spec is going to be

[low glade]

we're like more than a month out

[frail veldt]

if thats any consolation lol

[limpid grotto]

It's highly unlikely given their frequent tuning that any of the Rogue specs are not competitive

[covert kestrel]

Within War The

[cinder relic]

I mean yeah this expac is a reset expansion after years of layering stuff

It was inevitable

Did they go too far? Arguable

Has this happened before? Yes

[covert kestrel]

Were at the base level of the lasagna, they haven't started layering the beschemel yet

[short fable]

oh, honestly i forgot the abbreviation so I just said War WiThin cuz im stupid

[cinder relic]

Do they add more stuff after pruning? Yes

[limpid grotto]

If anything the main point of critique for Rogue is not expected output but rather the lack of anything unique still

Their Apex talents look extremely powerful but they bring zilch compared to the layered dmg + utility of other classes

They went overboard correcting Fury/Arms for example

Fury now has 2x stamp roars, champ spear now functions as a grip on top of rally, baseline shockwave and stormbolt, along with group wide AP buff, etc

[lethal oak]

I just want to press KS and get bit by Blood Queen first

[cunning swan]

I think rogue has long single target stun. don't remember if it really does anything else unique

[cinder relic]

Atro

[limpid grotto]

Atro poison is the only relevant utility in mythic raiding

[cunning swan]

o yeah

[limpid grotto]

it's not nothing but it's something that only necessitates a single rogue outside of DPS

Rogue really needs to bring stellar output for it to be widely used

[frail veldt]

atro is cute

outside of prog raid, no one is bringing a rogue just for atro

[covert kestrel]

my mom brought me to chuck e cheese cause i had atro

[frail veldt]

rogue is pretty much treated as if it has no raid buff

[cunning swan]

I think most classes have that situation for raids. the first is high value and the 2nd is tuning

[cinder relic]

If that was actually the case rogue wouldn't be brought to a lot of WF fights

[frail veldt]

yeah that never happens 😉

[cinder relic]

What

[cunning swan]

cant say I've checked the data but I don't think RWF is often playing without rogue

just a feeling though

[frail veldt]

but again what I said wwas outside of prog raid

[limpid grotto]

I mean Rogue is not bad in RWF because they are hard to kill

[cinder relic]

well also atro is good

[cunning swan]

yeah but if you use the argument that farm raids are a joke. then you can bring a rogue to joke content

[limpid grotto]

they can also do a lot of dmg and atro is needed

[frail veldt]

yeah thats a good question, what raid buffs are worse than atro

[cunning swan]

dk raid buff

[cinder relic]

Paladin buff

[frail veldt]

paladin has brez and a raid buff though

[cinder relic]

in the context of farm, fort is about as useless

Paladin raid buff is worse than atro most of the time

[frail veldt]

yeah priests is pretty weak

I thought paladin was 3% reduction right?

[limpid grotto]

i mean unique one off buffs arent as important because you only really need 1 class for x buff

[frail veldt]

compared to 3.6% for atro?

[limpid grotto]

it's what else your kit has

[cinder relic]

yep

[cunning swan]

the no raid buff mainly feels bad in m+ I think. for raid I think rogue is plenty viable

[civic meadow]

Atro doesnt work on environmental effects though, and i thought devo aura did

[frail veldt]

yeah

atro also doesnt work on things the rogue isnt hitting

[civic meadow]

yeah

[cunning swan]

most raid buffs aren't that crazy so the difference you have to make up isn't a big issue. they need to nerf battle shout though that'd be nice

[cinder relic]

In a majority of encounters, atro prevents more daamge than ret aura does

[frail veldt]

are there any other raid buffs that compete with atro for weakness or is it just devo and fort?

[cinder relic]

There is maybe 1 single fight, every other tier where atro doesn't work

[frail veldt]

oh is it called ret now not devo?

[cinder relic]

Nah ret aura is the old one

I meant devaura

[frail veldt]

actually I think evoker has the worst raid buff

for sure

[cinder relic]

Like yes, but also no

When its good its extremely good

But its very worthless on a lot of fights

[frail veldt]

yeah but like would you trade them

[cinder relic]

its like the inverse of atro lol

[frail veldt]

cuz I def wouldnt

[fathom bramble]

Their other raid utility is so much better than their actual raidbuff though

[frail veldt]

yeah ofc

they have other "raid buffs"

like how dk does

[jolly geyser]

Still cant decide between rog,warr and pala here

[frail veldt]

brez, grip, amz

[fathom bramble]

But it is probably generally the worst raidbuff

While dk simply has no raidbuff