Probably will just take the easier route and leave it working how it is mostly
#tc-research
knotty oriole
And add a second buff for tracking the visual stacks
Make sure the crit rating gets reset on death, then multiply times the visual stacks
Gonna be a bit annoying but I'll see what I can do with it
Kinda expected Blizzard to fix this bug like.. a year ago ๐
knotty oriole
@lean talon Ok, think I have a rewrite for this code that should map to the full in-game behavior
Will get it in today
Probably will lower the value in DS a bit because it won't be carrying that big boss stack size across the first couple waves.
Although I think the sustain value will be better since it seems to converge on averaging 4 "stacks" a lot, which should be about right if you are just firing it off
Could be the APL could be a little smarter about this too now
I'll look at that at some point
pastel sundial
@knotty oriole can you check for 2 min fights with vision? seems like it doesnt use vendetta nor dmg pot. also using bote too late (not after exsang)
kinda hard to compare clf vs vision
using potion + vendetta exang bote at ~1:38 should be the play
psure apl is just not adjusted to the 2:00 - 2:40 fights
knotty oriole
I think in this particular case it is somewhat odd because vanish actually fits within the fight length (2:21) so the logic to sync them kicks in even though Vendetta doesn't really fit.
I'll check
pastel sundial
not sure if we can add conditions for specific fight durations (mostly important for 1:50 - 2:50)
since you need to delay specific spells (at least i do)
for a 2:21 fight i.e. the better play is to ignore vanish (since it should come up somewhere 2:17)
and delay third exang (+ pot) for second vanish at ~2min ish (for second trinket usage)
(with or without vision - in this case if the fight goes 2:21 vision doesnt even matter much beside you ll get more value off vendetta since you can pop it without losing uptime since it should be ready somewhere around 2:03 without vision)
knotty oriole
I would not want to add specific fight duration conditions, no.. but I think there are some changes I can make that will resolve this type of specific timing case
pastel sundial
okay cool
well at the current state its funny how the 1:50 - 3 min fight duration can change spellusage nearly every 20s step
knotty oriole
Well, unfortunately that's some volatility we have to deal with in real fights too... since we can theoretically be aiming for a 2:30 fight for example and have it be faster, or be aiming for a 1:90 fight and then have some people die and it ends up being 2:20 or something. Parses in that fight length are always a bit of a crapshoot. ๐ฆ
pastel sundial
yeah no blame there
our fights are so scuffed atm since many fights end at 2:10 - 2:20
not even fun since you can do literly nothing
i think if we can fix the vision "bug"
we are gucci
knotty oriole
Yeah I'll take a look tonight, don't have any raid or anything this evening so I can take a look
pastel sundial
its not even a bug but not using it it doesnt surprise me that its 7k worse than clf :D
since you basically play without a minor + not using second pot
thanks bud
knotty oriole
@pastel sundial So a couple findings. One, I was able to get a pretty global win for VoP by adding some fight length conditions to make sure we use Vendetta with 20s remaining on the fight regardless. This had mostly gone missing with some previous sync changes (but only really matters for VoP)
Second is that syncing with that final Exsanguinate does seem to be a bit of a gain over just using in the last 20s (although not massive, around 0.4% or something)
But getting a generalized logic for that specific time slice vs. the time remaining for Vanish setup is really problematic
And couldn't really find anything simple that worked
Going to table that for the time being until I make a few other Vanish changes
Not really worth massively hard-coding some stuff just for a 0.4% gain with VoP+Exsang+Blood on an extremely specific fight length ๐
Obviously on any shorter length you'll overlap anyway (because of the 20s duration)
And any longer length and really any Vanish ticks at all overlap on the end of the fight (even a couple) will win with SS also
So this is, quite literally, only applicable to like a 5s window of fight lengths lol
dps gain
knotty oriole
Only if you won't get a vanish at all
noble pendant
Fights <2min?
knotty oriole
Like even a couple SS ticks at the end of the fight would make it better to just Vendetta at 20s remaining
noble pendant
Or I guess 2:15
knotty oriole
Well <2min you will do it already
noble pendant
Oh yeah huh
knotty oriole
That last Exsang is at 1:40 roughly, which you should be aiming to Vendetta there either way
It's basically like.. just for fights in like the 2:05-2:10 range or something
Where sub-20s Vendetta misses the Exsang but also doesn't get any Vanish
The 20s Exsang thing is quite a big improvement for VoP though
noble pendant
Yeah
knotty oriole
I mean it's like 4.5%
On these specific lengths
Only like 0.5% on most other lengths, but a couple specific lengths where it works out
It's a global gain though so easy enough to toss in
I also tested some other VoP things in general
Like more aggressively just trying to use with Blood+Exsang outside of the end of the fight
And those all ended up being bad bad bad
At least with this build, VoP doesn't really seem to accomplish a whole lot because using it desynced with Vanish other than at the end of the fight is just a straight 2-3% loss
pastel sundial
@knotty oriole thanks buddy i ll check later. just came home
lean talon
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/d7qGip6aahUitrFhqoPZiT in this 180 second 2 target patchwerk sim, the APL uses breath exactly one time and thats the second to last cast. especially in patchwerk where snipes arent a thing that makes absolutely no sense
knotty oriole
It's not really optimized to work for that case but not sure why it would be doing that with that fight length. I'll have to look at why that is. Maybe some expression issue. I'll have to debug it.
My guess would be that the cycling_variable isn't getting populated correctly for some odd reason because this should definitely be true in the opener:
((target.health.pct>80|target.health.pct<=20)&(active_enemies=1|variable.reaping_delay>29))
variable.reaping_delay is defined as being the min ttd among all targets.
So the fact that isn't working in the opener would indicate maybe a bug in the expression itself rather than the APL.
Haven't seen this before so maybe something got broken randomly in the core
knotty oriole
Yes, it looks like some core behavior has changed with the way the "min" operation is working
Going to fix it in the APL for now by changing the logic slightly, started a conversation to track down when it broke. There were some refactors recently of some core code so maybe something went missing
Only would have affected non-DS, non-ST sims though
lean talon
yea i stumbled upon it on accident when i wanted to compare damage to one target when you are able to build wits stacks vs when not, not something that comes up in "normal" sims
knotty oriole
Yeah I have a fix, just have to inject an extra line into the APL, it's checked in
Will try to track down the root cause later
knotty oriole
@noble pendant thanks for the tip, getting these yuge gainz on the APL ๐คฃ
Turns out you can really just mash buttons randomly as Assassination 10% of the time and it really doesn't matter ๐
noble pendant
Dude so sick
knotty oriole
At the end of the day the only thing being lost here was a couple non-empowered Exsanguinated ticks of Garrote
knotty oriole
So really it doesn't make any difference in a practical point of view, it just looks bad and is technically non-optimal
It was really rare is the main reason
noble pendant
I should wake up more often, apparently Iโm clairvoyant when Iโm half asleep 
knotty oriole
It's only refreshing off Exsanguinated DoTs 4% of all Vanishes after I did some analysis of it
noble pendant
But thanks for looking into it
knotty oriole
At that specific fight length
noble pendant
Whyโs it so random like that
knotty oriole
At other lengths it's probably much lower since the timing overlap is specific to that mark
noble pendant
Like whatโs making that so rare
Is it cause it sees the boss is dying and just smashes everything
knotty oriole
Because it was already waiting until pandemic and the other Vanish cooldown alignment logic made it really unlikely to line up with an Exsanguinated DoT
And it really only has a couple chances to overlap out of sync on specific lengths anyway
I'll put it in anyway because the logical changes are reasonable and will make the lists more reliable.. more reliable for things like HeroRotation and stuff
noble pendant
Aha yeah makes sense
ashen crater
Hi, I was doing some sims tonight on my Outlaw Rogue, testing different re-roll logics. (I just hit the 42% crit breakpoint that's in the current APL, so it made me curious to play around with the APL).
I tested a number of different re-roll logics, and the best I found for both Patchwerk and Hectic Add Cleave was to always re-roll for 2 buffs unless blade flurry is up, then use the logic in the current APL. (Note that I'm running alacrity, not loaded dice).
Hectic Add Cleave sim
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8fTSfTQPVHSj3UTwVPq8TM
Patchwerk sim
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4wVfdM5cCoFDWyjsmynLip
plucky mural
Turns out you can really just mash buttons randomly as Assassination 10% of the time and it really doesn't matter ๐
@knotty oriole ๐
rocky fern
/wave Hi there everyone. ^^ I don't normally post in Discords often, but I've run into quite a few folks today regarding conduit things, so just checking in here to let you guys know I'll try and get any information on the ones I have while testing/grinding out legendaries and whatnot.
knotty oriole
Awesome!
Yeah any logs of anything (from you or anyone else!) will help us greatly
Given the way legendary acquisition works on beta + the conduit lockout, obviously testing is quite difficult for any one person.. and since all of our Conduits came in after the reset, and only 1 legendary worked... we are just educated guessing on many of these things based on spell data.
rocky fern
Of course! I'll do what I can, because like you mention it is a bit of a bear trying to test the many combinations of things with a week long lockout and having to find/earn/grind all of these out too. >< I still need to set up WCLogs on beta so I can track all this better.
boreal patrol
I think base class is covered well so far but, yes, we appreciate any logs of legendaries and conduits. Scenario does not really matter, more important is good test coverage that allows us to gather conclusive data from the log (e.g. it's good to test and log things multiple times with and without a buff/effect in question to see how things work, even more so now that stuff has 5% variance).
rocky fern
Of course, I ended up just purchasing all of the PvP vendor Conduits up-front and stumbled over the Ambidexterity one while doing normal SoA literally just a day or so ago when I was working on that video you folks came across. According to the world map the world bosses are active now, so hopefully I can use that for a potential way to log at least some information. I'll just start recording whatever I'm doing and swapping through between available combinations I have to get a wider pool of data.
Oh, I did find an annoying bug that must have come in with the most recent build, so I was going to commit an issue to the Github that Scathic referred me to, but I couldn't quite figure out how to add labels to it. ^^; Basically Roll the Bone's buff tracker is showing pandemic refresh durations like it should, but after 30 seconds the buffs just fall off instantly, regardless of how much time they have left due to the refresh. I made an account for github, but couldn't for the life of me figure out how to add a label, unless you have to after you post the issue.
knotty oriole
Oof
Most likely when the buffs themselves pandemic the hidden background container buff isn't getting similar treatment
When the container buff expires all the buffs are removed, iirc
rocky fern
I figured it would be something along those lines, because I've been able to get it to refresh with a full 39 seconds, and it falls off when the buffs hit 9. I tried at various levels of refresh from 1 to 9 seconds and a few in between, so really annoying.
knotty oriole
Rather unfortunate
You can just put tickets it on the page and we'll tag them
If you can't add tags
rocky fern
For sure, I'll go ahead and do that, then. I wasn't sure if it was just a privilege level issue or if I just don't remember how Github works. lol
maiden cargo
What do i have to change in the APL to make the Opener unconditionally do rupture into exsang, whether it's a 6cp rupture or not.
Cant find it
knotty oriole
Probably would have to put in some time logic to skip the CT line in the opener. Might not be super straightforward
rocky fern
I'm sure I'm late to the party on this one, but did you folks know about the diminishing secondary stat thing in the beta builds?
rocky fern
Gotcha, just saw an article about that and didn't realize that was a thing. Quick Question- I just installed the WCLog uploader and was about to get some data, when I go to use the uploader, do I use the Test option? I assume so. o.o
boreal patrol
Afaik that find originated on RH even. Got the report of weird scaling so the discussion came up in the SimC team until our datacrunchers found the corresponding curve.
knotty oriole
Yes I believe so
rocky fern
I figured you folks would know all that stuff, just wanted to double check since it was the first I'd heard mention of it. ^^;
Gotcha, Koji. I'll try it out and see if that works. The other options are Classic and Live, so it only makes sense to use Test for a beta realm's log info.
sacred rover
hey guys got a quick question, are the any sims on the DPS difference of the covenants?
regal agate
A baseline comparison between covenants is not very informative, it will end up in sth like this for all 3 specs.
The problem with a covenant comparison is that different covenants benefit from other borrowed power systems.
Adding a Legendary power to Night Fae will make it more compatitive.
Adding the associated conduits on max rank to the Covenant can make Venthyr a good choice.
Venthyr is in general a interesting one given how diffrent each of the spec benefits from it.
knotty oriole
(And Kyrian is bad no matter what, because Kyrian is bad)
regal agate
overall the only spec with a more balanced choice between the covenants atm is subtlety.
all 3 covenants can be conditioned to situation the best choice.
regal agate
I try to make a somewhat fair comparison.
The following sims are run with the best legendary item (excluding akaaris)
(this means ma for night fae, and whatever is highest prio from the spec pin else)
and 15 rank in the associated covenant conduit.
subtlety:
outlaw:
assassination:
regal agate
just to have this visible in the conversation.
Nerfing ES by 0.5 would bring subtlety more in line.
Venthyr is as mentioned earlier a outliner.
proven sparrow
This is all without soulbinds, correct?
regal agate
Yes, those charts need to be taken with caution!
They don't include Soulbinds and other conduits that could shift the reletive dps between specs.
The potency conduits for Covenant abilities are outside of Slaughter Scars also rather weak.
proven sparrow
Ye i assumed so, since pelagos (kyrian soulbind) is currently way overtuned and could very possibly outweight the others until you get high ranked venthyr conduits
knotty oriole
Seems pretty unlikely given how trash Echoing Reprimand is
It has no good interactions with anything, is horribly un-fun to play, and almost impossible for them to tune
tawny ore
the random 2-4 cp too
golden briar
just make it 25 cp value instead of 7 and it's balanced ๐
tawny ore
it still feels like butt
knotty oriole
Night Fae seems like the most well-rounded backup option if they nerf Necrolord to the ground--which I fully expect they will do given that it was called out in the Ion post
But them re-tuning Slaughter could potentially change its value pretty heavily
So really we won't know much until they do the tuning pass they keep saying they will do Someday (tm)
tawny ore
i kind of want venthyr to do well, because i'm partial to spiders, and thats the 1st season mount for pvp. Plus if it does well, might be good for raid
tiny brook
Woh I haven't followed the discussion on covenants for a while. I'm surprised Venthyr isn't crap anymore (it's what I wanted to run just for non-optimization reasons)
Is there some place where there's a bit of high-level analysis of convenants as they stand currently ? I haven't been playing and following the updates for a while and I admit I'm quite lost.
noble pendant
spec channels specifically have conversation about it fairly frequently
there's not really any super detailed analysis though since we're expecting tuning, no real point in digging into the minutia atm
tiny brook
Thanks ๐
old folio
@tawny ore If PvP is your primary concern, Venthyr is already a totally viable option
tiny brook
I barely do PvP and cater more towards Raiding and M+ so I'm kinda worried still about running Venthyr but I'll see how the numbers go nby then
knotty oriole
Venthyr was never crap for every spec, just crap for Assassination (because it doesn't do anything at all, 0 DPS change without the Conduit) and mediocre for Outlaw (not many Vanish opportunities)
But Sub has some synergy with it for sure
But also the Venthyr Conduit is mega OP right now
So who knows how this will end up
noble pendant
seems curious to me that the bone spike conduit is basically 10% damage, but the slaughter conduit is like 60% or something
knotty oriole
Bone Spike Conduit is terrible
noble pendant
yeah
knotty oriole
It's like less than a 1% DPS increase or something iirc
Slaughter one is basically like "lol does 3-4x damage" ๐
regal agate
the only strong conduit is the one for slaughter all 3 others are rather disappointing from a numerical standpoint (but the one for slaughter is way to strong)
noble pendant
just seems very weird to me that they would choose to make the conduits so glaringly different in terms of power
knotty oriole
I suspect they did not at all consider either Sub or the Blindside talent
When designing that Conduit for Slaughter
And just did a quick math of like
tawny ore
I mainly do pve, but ideally Iโd be able to get the season one mount, sorry didnโt mean to make it seem like all I do is pvp
knotty oriole
"Oh Vanish every 2 minutes, x double damage and crit"
lol
By that measurement it almost makes sense
noble pendant
yeah
I think the bigger question right now is what are they going to do with kyrian
cause they could just 10x all the numbers and call it a day, but that would be rather disappointing
knotty oriole
Well unless they make it also affect the CP mechanical contribution, I feel like it's a lost cause.. or dramatically lower the cooldown
Or make it do so much instant damage it one shots people in PvP
๐
noble pendant
quick shower thoughts on what to do with kyrian imo, If they want to maintain the whole anima-charge thing, I have 2 ideas
- anima charge the max combo point every time
- add an anticipation effect where you over-cap cp for a short time
zealous sandal
i mean they could do so much with ER to make it more interesting
i was thinking that it could be cool if your rotation could somehow affect the "bonus CP" from ER. Maybe something like having a shorter window where each finisher grants an additional CP when you do land on the animacharge.
zealous sandal
and overly difficult for little reward
meanwhile bone spike granting full CP for 10 energy in aoe situations lol
knotty oriole
I mean at the end of the day the base design is trash
Even trying to test it in a controlled situation
The amount of times I've timed it wrong with CP procs and shit for Sub is ridiculous
And I really don't want to reinstall a CP swing timer tracker
Just to do this stupid mechanic
noble pendant
animacharge your first combo point
knotty oriole
And either way you end up in odd situations where say you use your builder
knotty oriole
It crits, you get 3 CP
Your swing is coming in
So you either have to sit there and wait for AA proc and waste CD time
delicate flax
aim your character 80ยฐ on the side ๐
knotty oriole
Or you take the risk and go for it, then flub it potentially
Then put your SecTec on cooldown and are angry about it
Not that it works on SecTec anyway ๐
Everything about it is so meh
delicate flax
On a serious note, where can i find the gear lines to type on simulationcraft for shadowlands legendaries ?
knotty oriole
They are bonus IDs
https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/blob/shadowlands/engine/dbc/generated/item_runeforge.inc first column is the bonus ID
delicate flax
Thanks !
midnight tiger
Hey guys, I am a shaman main thinking of switching to rogue in shadowlands. Does anyone know how the Mark of the Master Assassin Legendary works with Sub? Does it work with Shadow Dance?
Couldnt find a Shadowlands channel, I hope I am asking this in the right place.
knotty oriole
Only works from Vanish and Stealth
midnight tiger
Damn, thats kind of lame. Still sounds good for M+ though
Although if it worked with Shadow Dance, it would be absolutely broken
noble pendant
the shadowlands channels are the spec channels themselves and #wow-general. This channel is mostly simulation stuff and gigabrain theorycraft type things
midnight tiger
Gotcha, thanks!
regal agate
updated outlaw chart for
#tc-research message
golden briar
so it's not kyrian being bad, it's everything except necro being bad, i see
tawny ore
Necros absurd atm, and kyrian is pretty bad
knotty oriole
Well yes and no. With legendaries Sepsis shoots up quite a bit.
This is just baseline
regal agate
my sims are with : covenant + covenant conduit rank 15 + (bis) legendary
(bis means MA for fae and charm in other 3 in the sim)
night fae is usually lower because MA is on st less impactfull than the best other legendary
knotty oriole
Right this is ST I guess. That makes sense for Outlaw.
Outlaw has far fewer benefits from Sepsis and Slaughter than the other two in general.
Although Kyrian is still just horrible for everyone.
tawny ore
I really hope MA isnโt the go to
knotty oriole
Could be for dungeons especially if they donโt fix Blade Flurry not breaking stealth.
regal agate
Because i got the feedback that people get totally unreasonable expectations from simulations with higher conduit ranks, some baseline sims:
subtlety:
outlaw:
assassination:
civic mango
3341 
slim crest
i still think the night fae effect should work more like subterfuge instead of just flat out putting you in stealth again
to solve the whole world content issue it has
also sub may be a little overtuned not even counting akaari's
golden briar
@regal agate baseline, as in no legendary/rank1 conduits? or no conduits?
regal agate
yes, no conduit, no soulbinds, no legendary powers
zealous thicket
I'm more focused on raid progressing and what are yout thoughts about Dauntless Duelist and Thrill Seeker Soulbinds?
vale inlet
a spec specific channel would be more appropriate for your question I think
zealous thicket
I was pointing more into TC and sims with different classes, not focused into one specific. How they see those soulbinds in the TC, if those has some sinergy with the others aspects that are working RN in the beta 
knotty oriole
Haven't really looked at it heavily yet since no real tuning pass has happened. Blizzard cutting it pretty close.
lost echo
dont see an invigorating shadowdust bug on the bugs list, its reducing some things by 30 seconds (sectec/bladeflurry/killing spree for example) and some things not at all (shuriken tornado, dreadblades)
theres a bug that was closed when it was mostly fixed, should maybe get reopened
rigid hamlet
Anyone fluent in APL overrides with Simcraft? I have some questions if anyone has a moment.
noble pendant
not sure about "fluent" but if it isn't crazy I might be able to help
rigid hamlet
Anyone know why the Wowhead formula for Shadowstrike (0.69% * AP) isn't adding up to tooltip damage in game? I'm taking into account damage multipliers from r2 Shadowstrike and Versatility. Still isn't adding up.
(This is on Beta, so i'm not affected by traits or any extraneous buffs that i can see)
grave wharf
I don't actually understand why, but I checked the tooltip value with several combinations of gear and the best formula I could fit to the data was (ignoring nightstalker/stealth/dance bonuses)
(0.6988 * AP + 84) * (vers) * (1.21)
1.21 being the subtlety aura bonus at the moment: https://shadowlands.wowhead.com/spell=137035/subtlety-rogue
where the +84 comes from, I have no idea- it just made the math work
boreal patrol
when it says 69.8802% Attack power, the AP that is used for calculation is AP stat + 6 * WDPS
so (AP + 6 * MHWPDS) * 0.698802 * vers * mods
mods include spec aura, shadowstrike rank 2 and whatever else is active dynamically
noble pendant
Some side by side comparison on conduits and the first row of sin. Some naming conventions and basis:
- MP/EP/BS are the corresponding talents 1/2/3
- WPS signifies Well-placed steel, aka the shiv conduit
- conduits are lethal/maim/x, where x is either fracture or WPS
- conduit ranks are signified by the number following the profile name
- Dashing scoundrel and PR profile at base 183 ilvl for gear
- Covenant is consistent necro throughout
- 300 second 20% variance patchwerk, all buffs enabled, error of ~0.5% (~15dps)
conclusions and things to note:
- BS, as fuu's pins state, is a consistently good choice in singlet target, and only really has competition at higher levels of conduits, mainly with MP
- As raid gear becomes the standard and the PR profile becomes undergeared in comparison, the trend of MP may continue and will outscale BS
- MP is a good enough replacement for players who do not wish to use BS, or who find difficulty in utilizing it properly
- EP remains a fair distance behind, and gains more value when multiple targets are present, also reflected in the research for m+ by seli and others
- MP would also allow stronger slows, stronger numbing poison etc, and considering its viability in single target, might see some usage as a utility or consistency alternative
- Fights with adds that die quickly might see MP find a niche as a buff to poison damage in short bursty AoE rather than longer sustained cleave (I haven't looked into it personally, but it seems reasonable)
rigid hamlet
so
(AP + 6 * MHWPDS) * 0.698802 * vers * mods
@boreal patrol That formula works exactly without including the 25% from ShS r2. So Iโm guessing the 69.8802% * AP already takes r2 into account?
boreal patrol
well r2 is from stealth, so if you checked without stealth you don't need it, sorry. just wanted to point out it exists since those things are easy to forget
rigid hamlet
Ahh, ty
Dunno why I was thinking the 25% from stealth was coming from somewhere else. I was checking without stealth but still thought r2 was baked in.
ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
grave wharf
I had a 20 dps dagger on when collecting my data so that lines up with 20 * 6 * 0.6988 = ~84 for my magic number, what an odd formula though
rigid hamlet
Does that hold true for other abilities as well? Like Eviscerate?
I mean the wdps multiplier. I know the AP multiplier is different.
noble pendant
I believe so
boreal patrol
yes, before BfA when stuff was Weapon Damage based it used to be Weapon damage range plus a factor of AP, now it's AP plus a factor of WDPS (to still make weapon damage matter somewhat)
usually it's MHWDPS but for pure off-hand attacks it can be OHWDPS and in some cases (like ranged abilities or shuriken storm) they do the hybrid thing of 2/3 MH and 1/3 OH
rigid hamlet
Any idea what the case is for Eviscerate?
(AGI + 6 * MHWdps) * 0.176 * 5 * 1.21 * Mastery multiplier * Vers multiplier is about 3% higher than my 5cp tooltip
not sure what i'm missing
noble pendant
are you using deeper strat
rigid hamlet
no
also tried * (mastery + vers) in case they were additive. it was closer but it was slightly under the mark for that one
noble pendant
most everything in the game is multiplicative
noble pendant
only idea I have is that your character sheet is rounding the %'s
I'm pretty sure it rounds up
so that might be where you're overshooting
torn dome
Evi benefits less from mastery
on level 60 you can do (8+mastery_stat/35)*2.76
2.45 for evi
According to myst when I last asked.
boreal patrol
should be fine for evis, it's that it's higher for periodic damage. evis should work out with the percentage in the character panel
the formula above with 2.45 can help eliminate rounding errors if you wanna be accurate though.
you're overshooting by 3%? that's kinda odd, would have to see the full stats and calculation
rigid hamlet
i think i'm close enough now for my purposes
do you happen to know the formula for white hits for mh and oh?
civic mango
Character sheet rounds, but you can use the exact value by dividing the rating by the per percentage value, which for example is 72 rating for crit at level 120
rigid hamlet
yeh, i've been putting those conversions into a spreadsheet
all i need now is a formula for white hits for MH and OH
boreal patrol
should be Wdmg + AP * WSpeed / 6 with vers on top for each min and max
rigid hamlet
much appreciated!
high jackal
boreal patrol
that's the same weapon coefficient that goes into AP as stated above. why 6? idk because blizzard made it so. it was 7 in early BfA alpha but changed after a week or two
visual sedge
!bugs
plush slateBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/labels/Rogue
visual sedge
Is there a spell id/buff that can be tracked for the extra sinister strike casts given by the triple threat conduit? And do we know if it is intended for it to proc off itself (old windfury style).
Especially during skull and crossbones, I've seen up to 4 hits back to back.
knotty oriole
When it procs there are always 4 impacts, at least right now
The 2nd attack is followed by a 3rd new spell, which also always triggers a primary attack again
After such a time, the primary attack can do the normal process all over again, potentially
visual sedge
What about the 10-15 combo points during that?
knotty oriole
Well every hit of Sinister Strike generates a combo point so
knotty oriole
193315 -> 197834 -> 341541 -> 193315
will always happen at a minimum on a TT proc
Really unsure what is actually intended since the tooltip is pretty horrible
visual sedge
I'll let the folks smarter than me sort it out then, was just wondering if that had been looked at.
noble pendant
Some more talent sims 
this time looking at row 2 instead of row 1. Some basis first:
- con:15 is maxed conduits. Lethal/maim/fracture (more on fracture later)
- We do use dashing here. 5 min patchwerk 20% variance all the usuals
- NS hold is a variation of the APL. It casts bone spike once at the start of combat from stealth, and then never casts it again. Following vanishes snapshot ruptures.
- NS is the standard APL call which snapshots a rupture on vanish.
Conclusions and other fun notes:
- Subterfuge is within margins to MA, and wins in cleave where multiple garrotes can be spread.
- NS ruptures are pretty lackluster
- NS hold makes bonespikes very very strong, as this bone spike will last the entire fight, and is snapshotted the entire time.
- bone spike throughout the fight only really accounts for ~13 combo points
- snapshotting itself is +200dps on the bone spike dot itself (ambush with blindside is only doing ~130)
regarding sudden fractures:
its not shown in this sim, but by snapshotting bonespike, the damage gain on it actually makes SF viable, and consistently stronger than WPS
knotty oriole
Actually think this sim is incorrect and somehow Bone Spike is bypassing some protections we put in
Bone Spike doesn't benefit from Nightstalker in-game
noble pendant
is that a bug?
noble pendant
true
knotty oriole
I had made a note about this a while ago but I suspect it still works in SimC
I think it's worth keeping an eye on depending on if they change it or not
noble pendant
the fracture damage is actually abysmal
tbh
recasting bonespike on a 5 minute fight gives 14 combo points total and 34 dps
knotty oriole
We don't really have much of an idea how they will change Bone Spike yet.
noble pendant
or if they change it at all tbh
knotty oriole
I mean from an energy->CP/damage perspective it's still very strong
It's 10 energy for 2 cp
noble pendant
maybe they just quadruple kyrian and buff venthyr and call it a day
10 energy for 2 cp is indeed very good
knotty oriole
I mean if you think about it
knotty oriole
Over a 5 minute fight
You're basically saying it's giving as much CP as Echoing Reprimand
And that's all ER does ๐คฃ
knotty oriole
(Hence why ER is a total joke)
noble pendant
nightstalker envenoms didn't look good either
knotty oriole
Now I will say
Nightstalker does affect the fracture damage
Which means on AoE if you have a bunch up, and with the 200% fractures
Vanish into Bone Spike probably does a shitton of damage lol
noble pendant
Yeah thatโs why I assumed the dot worked with nightstalker too
Or at least should
Also makes the garbage conduit viable
knotty oriole
The DoT snapshotting with the persistent multiplier is pretty much scripting magic
noble pendant
Which is cool
knotty oriole
They have to add it server-side
So it could be they forgot
Or could be they decided it was OP
But anyway I'll fix it in SimC for now
)
knotty oriole
Hah well it's only one line of code ๐
That reminds me
I need to check Nightstalker with Sepsis again too since they changed it
noble pendant
Changed it work or not work
knotty oriole
No idea, just mean they touched Sepsis ๐
noble pendant
Aha
knotty oriole
Sweet, doesn't affect the Sepsis DoT either. Blizzard and forgetting Covenant abilities...
jaunty breach
Thank you folks for all you do in here.
midnight tiger
Hello all, has anyone gotten to take a good look at the new Venthyr ability yet? It seems like its a neat cooldown-type ability. Maybe good for Subtlety?
noble pendant
We donโt have a conduit for it yet, but from what Iโve dabbled with it on sims, it looks pretty mediocre
midnight tiger
unfortunate ๐ฆ
noble pendant
Definitely more interesting than slaughter, but we just donโt have much in the way of numbers since weโre still waiting for changes etc
midnight tiger
That makes sense
I am hoping that they are all similar
I am okay with one being the best, one has to be, but i hope they are close at least (bring bonespike down plz)
woeful loom
Something to probably keep in mind with the new venthyr is that it is very very new, it doesnt even seem to have animations yet, just using old ones
fallow comet
does anyone have shadowlands apl?
noble pendant
you can find APL's and stuff for each profile in the beta branch
fallow comet
i might be slightly stupid, but i cant find that
noble pendant
https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/blob/shadowlands/engine/class_modules/sc_rogue.cpp has APL's starting at around line 6880, or you can see them from the attached html, I just quick and dirtied all 3 specs for ya 
fallow comet
thanks!
crude charm
Hey all, is there a list of open questions somewhere? Specifically I'd like to be more informed about Subtlety and that means understanding what's been done and what open questions need answering.
noble pendant
!bugs
plush slateBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/labels/Rogue
noble pendant
there's that
crude charm
Oooh, sexy; thank you. Just checking, these are ways in which SimC is not properly reflecting Shadowlands Beta systems?
noble pendant
either that, or clear bugs from beta/simc
harsh basin
Those are in game bugs not bugs in simc
noble pendant
ye usually
naive anvil
That's without Flagellation though right ๐
wait
how did i get here
oh your link went to the TC channel
harsh basin
If you want to sim with/without the bugs listed then you can usually do it with bugs=1 or bugs=0, as long as its been implemented like that
knotty oriole
I think @regal agate has been working on a lot of APL changes over the last day or so, but not sure if he picked this one up
regal agate
Yes, this is the case with my current proposed apl change.
The change i found to be a gain was this:
- actions.build+=/echoing_reprimand
+ actions.cds+=/echoing_reprimand,if=combo_points.deficit>=3&!buff.stealth.up&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=4
```However i haven't checked all edge cases, if you got anything to add/propose feel free to do so in here or dm's
narrow light
hey, are there any sims for pre-patch state of rogue specs out there?
pastel sundial
can anyone confirm that symbol not affecting ER (100% crit) is a bug?
golden briar
tooltip-wise, probably a bug
blizzard doesn't relay their design ideas very well tho
regal agate
none of the covenant abilities does work with symbols to my knowledge
boreal patrol
it's a bug. they forgot to add them to the autocrit buff whitelist
they are whitelisted on the dmg buff
solar swift
sin fae apl need to be edit ๐
vanish from sepsis apparently is not realized either
knotty oriole
Will need a bit more info on what you feel is wrong here specifically.
solar swift
For example, the opening should be with ambush
run with actions.dot+=/sepsis,if=master_assassin_remains=0&!buff.subterfuge.up
regal agate
should be enough to add &!stealthed.all
pastel mountain
Hey, ive seen some rogue sims in this sheet https://tinyurl.com/y3ehe8mq, Where i cant find them ?
regal agate
in the spec channels:
pastel mountain
Oh tank you ๐
knotty oriole
@solar swift perhaps. Although I'm actually not totally sure if Ambush will end up being prioritized from Stealth in the end. It's still not very good.
It's better than Mutilate but that's about it.. and that's not saying much lol
glass rune
Consuming Echoing Reprimand's buff then doing another finisher with the same amount of combo points as the consumed buff causes all your following finishers to count as a 7CP finisher regardless of combo points spent, and seems to persist through death aswell. This is working for Eviscerates/Vaults/Ruptures, didn't test on other finishers. I couldn't find the bug on github so not sure if this was reported already.
glass rune
xD
its working on vault for me, its doing 1.1k hits at any CP aswell as the CDR on dance.
i'm also not sure if casting ER again would cancel the bug
and you would have to repeat the process again to reproduce it
boreal patrol
7-cp mode stops when you consume the next ER buff
but you can re-enter by just repeating again
glass rune
okay
boreal patrol
Ah, i see what you mean. Yeah it affects other finishers but only can be entered with Eviscerate, it seems
boreal patrol
omg, you can also switch to outlaw and just spam dispatch
glass rune
lol
wait so the only way to reproduce the bug is by starting with an Eviscerate ? so assa/outlaw cant really do it unless you bug it and switch specs ?
boreal patrol
ok updated the report
glass rune
๐
formal prairie
@knotty oriole Thank you for all you do!
boreal patrol
Since people are curious. Here some unprofessional contextless combination preview sims for the nerfed legendaries.
Sub: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/398549488723296258/763536458371825694/unknown.png
Outlaw: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/398549488723296258/763538296793727016/unknown.png
Assa: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/398549488723296258/763541239768678400/unknown.png
(Usual disclaimers apply. Please don't blame me for your potential hype or anger.)
limpid sail
all of those are kyrian?
boreal patrol
Yes
limpid sail
thanks
knotty oriole
https://tenor.com/view/timeline-doctor-strange-benedict-cumberbatch-future-infinity-war-gif-11789036
formal prairie
solar swift
how can i add spelldata for lashing scars ranks?
boreal patrol
Implemented the Flrgrrlation changes as far as we could guess from spell data. Expect this to get nerfed as well as potential changes when it works properly on beta and we can verify it. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/398549488723296258/763743739004846080/unknown.png
Flagellation is very reminding of Razor Coral now. Sim uses a simple APL to convert at 40 stacks for now. Uptimes on 40 stack buff were about 73% for Sub, 63% for Outlaw, 50% for Assa.
formal prairie
Will there be comparison How does Flag compare to the other covs atm?
boreal patrol
With these numbers, it's between 7-10% ahead of the other covenant abilities, atm.
halcyon star
Heads up that the sub rogue T25 profile is picking up Spyglass @ ilvl 224
noble pendant
I don't think T25 profiles are getting supported into shadowlands
halcyon star
Mystler just updated them on the Shadowlands branch a couple days ago, only reason I mentioned it
knotty oriole
Could be some of the bonus IDs are broken still
Is it 224 in the report or just the wowhead tooltip?
halcyon star
That's my best guess, because there are a few weird ilevel calculations for Razor Coral and the Mecha rings as well
knotty oriole
Is it 224 in the report or just the wowhead tooltip?
boreal patrol
I added a manual ilevel override when i edited them the other day because i was too lazy to look up the new bonus ids. Ignore the wowhead tooltip.
halcyon star
I picked up nightly this morning and it's still coming in at 224 in the report, though something could be bugged. Dropping it to 130 in my local build drops our DPS by ~400 or so.
I picked up nightly this morning and it's still coming in at 224 in the report, though something could be bugged. Dropping it to 130 in my local build drops our DPS by ~400 or so.
boreal patrol
Oh, yeah. Thanks for catching it. I only fixed it for Outlaw and forgot Sub used it too.
Fortunately I put some hacks into my scripts to ensure things don't overscale (since this is a problem for all T25 profiles)
regal agate
Pre patch support for classes/specs:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTbUGOPCydwypWuiH4lgBhGv6f6yIv5PM2C3Gd-LLRFIlvg86PR3ovTSBOLGxqqCiHDbl7iLe2PW7js/pubhtml
gleaming fern
Should include that all m+ items currently show up as SL ilvl
knotty oriole
How do you mean?
lost echo
i think he means that in raidbots top gear the ilvls are SL level
apparently excluding mechagon
idk if its just raidbots or a simc thing or w/e
harsh basin
Its prob the bonus ids
lost echo
could be due to an old simc string maybe
vale inlet
https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/simulationcraft/files/3078795
link for the lazy xp
civic mango
Thanks for the target count time spent breakdown on dslice Koji ๐
knotty oriole
np!
weary scroll
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wZf8rLDZdabc1KC8c6cFyk/simc it looks like heart of darkness still only works in sims if you have 25 net corruption
knotty oriole
hmmm
I didn't do that part, I'd have to look
Oh yeah.. I think that is right.. rip
Let me see if I can fix it
Ok, I've checked in a fix, I'm letting Seri know about it
Probably that is why there was a big DPS jump in @quartz geyser 's sim fwiw
Likely was removing an item that brought below the hidden corruption threshold
Seri said he will kick off a new Raidbots build soon
civic mango
Based Seriallos
quartz vortex
- Nights vengeance & replicating shadows is working off rupture for sub
noble pendant
I don't think so
knotty oriole
No
They would have literally only been fixed today
NV has been broken for months lol
noble pendant
now its not get rekt
knotty oriole
I will take a look, but I will be attempting to raid momentarily ๐
split sorrel
Re-running HD with the changes (as well for some other classes)
It's on SimC but not Raidbots yet. Although some minor APL changes would be needed in order to make it optimal ๐
keen horizon
@knotty oriole is that time spent per target count a dynamic thing where if it does a 5 mob pull and then 1 mob dies it stops counting for time spent fighting 5 targets
knotty oriole
No, that is aggregate time across all the pull instances
Technically how it works is that it has a "small adds" and a "big adds" wave with cooldowns and slightly variable duration
These pulls can overlap
Depending on the lengths
That's how it ends up being a varied number of targets across the duration of the 5 minute sim
But that time calculation is in terms of unit time (in globals)
keen horizon
oh gotcha
knotty oriole
Since the boss segment is roughly 2 minutes, 4 minutes is dedicated to add waves
21 seconds of which would be 6T for example. (6% of 6 minutes) which is about 9% of the "add time"
scenic stratus
anything pushed onto the nightly? think dps changed a bit since last time i simmed
boreal patrol
Fixes for NV and TFD
scenic stratus
alright cheers
grand urchin
Can someone confirm my findings => Did 3x 10 minutes test on dummy and Instant Poison for sub seems to be 25% proc rate all three sessions.
I did 1 session without SnD active and 2x with SnD active for the entire period
Spec was Sub
knotty oriole
Ok, well that is not correct since the DW miss penalty would make that impossible
Have a 19% miss rate
grand urchin
I am on training dummy atm and blizzard combat log literally shows 0 melee misses
I've just turned my scrolling text on, you do miss, the log just doesnt pick it up
regal agate
Bloodfang without the "oopsie" ap modifier:
lost echo
im seeing dungeon pieces in the shown gearset for herodamage sims as SL ilvl. Any chance this is affecting sims?
noble pendant
I think thatโs part of what mystler fixed last week, and those are just wowhead tooltip errors
Donโt quote me on it though
lost echo
that'd make sense, the wowhead page does have them at 224
boreal patrol
yeah, bonus ids are not updated but item level is overridden in the sim
split sorrel
lol ๐
torpid mural
is the pocket sized computation device gems not showing up in raid bots for anyone else?
harsh basin
check the html report, raidbots tooltips aren't always accurate
proper pivot
My apologies for the newbie question here. I'm looking to start my hand in the napkin math world of warcraft.
I've been advised you can use raidbots advanced sim to find information and base it on simulation craft. Is there literature or a guide to start in regards to beta version of shadowlands to pull item numbers etc?
noble pendant
proper pivot
And if so, how does one go about building a character? Is it just using the simulationcraft download?
noble pendant
bonus ids and item id's you can find on wowhead
proper pivot
Tyvm. I remember using the download prior to raidbots, but it used live armory. There is a function to not use live function?
noble pendant
you would have to build it yourself, either through the command line, or building the gui
there's a guide on that in the wiki as well
proper pivot
Thanks Soo much @noble pendant
fallow comet
What do I use to change covenant in my sim code?
or to copy it as a second/third etc sim in advanced?
noble pendant
covenant=kyrian
so if you wanted to make a copy, simming necrolord, you would have your original, and then just:
copy="kyrian"
covenant=kyrian
copy="necrolord"
covenant=necrolord
ok, thank you
fallow comet
does anyone have the apl for conduits
regal agate
soulbind=name_of_conduit:rank should work
round gazelle
Has anyone looked into the Pandemic timer of Wows Dots. and such, I feel like someone probably has the exact numbers and such for that? That could be useful for most dots and buff effects?
noble pendant
30% duration of the new dot
garrote is 18 seconds, so refreshing at 5.4 (which is 18*0.3), will get you a new garrote of duration 23.4. The damage is calculated from the newly applied dot
round gazelle
Yeah, that is backed up with what I researched as well. Okay. I was making some Weakauras so was looking into it. Wanted to see if what I calculated was the same.
noble pendant
can also read about it in this thread here if you're interested. https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2145373-What-is-Pandemic
its an effect across all classes now, used to be a warlock passive
round gazelle
Yeah, ty I'll look into it. Yeah I heard it was a warlock passive originally. So I did also get on my lock and tested my numbers with the dots of my warlock and they confirmed my original calculation as well. ^^
dull kelp
Interesting note on Pandemic. Now that itโs possible to have 100% uptime on Blade Flurry, it seems that BF does not benefit from Pandemic, i.e. when I refresh BF at or under 4.5 seconds the new BF is always exactly 15 seconds. Maybe this was already known but I could find it documented anywhere so I thought Iโd share it here.
boreal patrol
Pandemic is mostly a DoT thing. While it does exist for maintenance buffs like Slice and Dice, it is not the default behavior.
fallow comet
what does simulationcraft understand for soulbinds
ive tried conduits=wild_hunt_tactics/planned_execution:5/ and soulbinds=wild_hunt_tactics/planned_execution:5/
but they arent working
boreal patrol
soulbind
fallow comet
simple enough, thanks
solar swift
I don't know if I've done everything right, but it looks like still need to reroll (beta, bis gear, st 5 min) https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/onPGSXkAs6SwB8W8S2rkZw
mb more profit with mfd in m+ (with lower cd on rtb)
regal agate
we haven't added a reroll logic to the apl yet, i think loktark did look into rerolls too.
grim inlet
Has anyone looked into the damage change for burning excess cp into snd after pulls end in dungeon slice?
Idk if that's something that's easily replicable in an apl
civic mango
seems a little unnecessary for dslice, since you get restealths, and also downtime is only a couple of seconds
regal agate
downtimes are not high enough to have a natural cp decay
plain coral
I spotted interesting thing !
https://i.imgur.com/7ZqpJdi.gif
Flag CD is starting upon pressing the spell but Simc assume it start after it has been cleanse
so It cast it every 1:50 insteed of every 1:30, not sync it with SB especially
https://i.imgur.com/mNl18qJ.png
Since it is not an APL related thing I cannot sim it correctly myself, but I tinkered a patch to get estimations :
https://i.imgur.com/zeIQMFd.png
This is my sims for soulbinds, 2 potency 1 trait (excluding renown 34 traits). I forced the APL to sync Flag with SB and added the estimated loss from the 2 missing Flag cast which I estimate about 100dps. That bring Nadjia DD on the same level than Korayn and Emeni which is very good !
Fun fact : SS rank 7 give SB exactly 1:50sec cooldown such that it perfectcly sync with the incorrect CD value of Flag in simc. Also SB seems to have exactly 1:30 CD with SS rank 15, but well who know when we'll see conduits rank 15...
boreal patrol
Just pushed a fix for the cd. There was some older section in the code that i missed to remove with the rework that reset the cooldown when the debuff expires. Thanks for bringing it up!
plain coral
Nice for the fast reaction ! Thanks a lot !
boreal patrol
Judging by spell data changes, there should be a ton of bug fixes in the latest beta build. I'll go through the corresponding issues on our bug tracker tomorrow.
solar swift
in sim let_go_of_the_past is applied from almost each cast (like SB), but in game only from casts with energy cost, so between shd windows - we can refresh buff only with feint/distract/low cp finisher
noble pendant
Does it not proc off of generators
solar swift
or u can use bs / fok / bs / fok lol
knotty oriole
Sounds kinda like a bug tbh
What doesnโt it proc from? Havenโt tested it recently
solar swift
from casts with energy costs
generators / finishers / distract / feint / shiv / vial
and ... blind (no cost)
so i guess its bug ofc
west prism
Detection?
tiny brook
With the fix on Flag CD in SimC, does this mean Venthyr isn't the worst covenant choice anymore ?
regal agate
i will run/update sims when we finished double checking and implementing the changes in simc.
Venthyr and Nigth fae could become very competitive
boreal patrol
Simc doesn't really need Rogue specific changes since it's all picked up automatically, so nightly should be fine. Let Go is currently implemented in core with not many specific checks like costs. You're right it seems to be limited to certain ability flags that is not implemented correctly in the sim and will have to be looked at but it shouldn't really affect many abilities and ShB should at best cause it to stack to max 1s earlier.
I also went through our bug tracker and could happily close about 20 issues so far.
warm pine
!bugs
plush slateBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/labels/Rogue
knotty oriole
Think you may be reading that wrong though
The buffs are what were present at the time of cast
So the (4) stack on the 2nd cast doesnโt mean the 2nd backstab in a row procโd it. It means the previous backstab did.
solar swift
my bad, rly ...
boreal patrol
looks like it stacks from all active spells that cause a gcd
if other classes can confirm that, we can change the implementation accordingly
regal agate
My Shadowlands Simulation/evaluation spreadsheet (covenant, legendary, soulbinds, conduits): http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
civic mango
any ideas why ambidexterity is a dps decrease in dslice?
regal agate
target error
lost echo
celerity pumps huh
golden briar
akaari bis for st again?
regal agate
its bis on st for ~2 weeks now
golden briar
my bad then, haven't followed much of the tuning stuff, i just remember it falling off at some point
drifting shore
u'll only use it on artificer and shriekwing kekw
plain coral
Hey ! With my default_ilvl226 profile I found out that forcing APL to sync Shadow Blades with Symbols of Death in the case where Stilleto_Staccato conduit is equipped is a small gain.
This is the line I changed :
actions.cds+=/shadow_blades,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points.deficit>=2
with
actions.cds+=/shadow_blades,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points.deficit>=2&(cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains<=2|conduit.stiletto_staccato.rank<5)
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rFesVGCdKq6XM7PpbEA32v
knotty oriole
Seems to make sense yeah
plain coral
I believe it is due to it having ~1:53 CD with conduit rank 7
and making tho is sync at 2:00 is good
knotty oriole
Thanks! @regal agate might try some other similar things too
plain coral
not sure that it is a gain for any rank tho
lost echo
@regal agate was that spreadsheet done after the pelagos nerfs?
noble pendant
The sims are timestamped to thursday, so the Pelagos nerfs are in. Should also be noted that he uses that spreadsheet as an organizer whenever new patches come live, so it updates whenever he re-sims for channel pins
tender thistle
Yea I think we can all agree every class discord is jealous of @regal agate and his nutty simms
unkempt crescent
Rogue discord is the best class discord
keen kite
Hey fellow Rogues, I have a Question regarding the Simc APL, in particular this line :
actions.stealthed+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=spell_targets.shuriken_storm=4&combo_points>=4
which is also reflected on the Subtletly Guide on Ravenholdt.net
Use a finishing move if you hit 5(4 if talented in Vigor, Marked for Death or on exactly 4 targets) or more Combo Points.
What I don't understand is why should I only finish only on exactly 4 Targets, whats happening if there are more than 4? Am I just supposed to build CPs further when im at 4 CP's and there are more than 4 targets?
Is the APL just assuming that if there were more than 4 top begin with our last builder has built more than 4 cps?
If so, that's not always true is it? what if adds spawn or get moved to the group or smth similar?
Granted it's a scenario thats unlikely, and it would only be one wasted gcd I still don't understand what breaks if the condition was >= 4 targets in the first place?
Can someone smarter than me please enlighten me? ๐
unkempt crescent
If you only hit 4 you finish with 4, if you hit more you finish with more cp
It's a situational condition and you have to decide on the fly
keen kite
I mean I can understand the line, I can safely finish on 4 targets and 4 cp's because Shurikenstorm would overcap hard and im not 'loosing' any cps by finishing with only 4 cps because next builder would build these 4 back up. What i dont understand is why the line is only doing it on exactly 4 targets, not if there are more than 4
unkempt crescent
With more targets you have more than 4cp. Every hit of storm creates 1 cp
So 5 targets mean automatic 5cp
The 4 cp condition is because at 3 targets you double storm with DS
keen kite
Yes, i know that Sstorm builds a Cp per target hit. So the apl assumes that if there are 4 targets now, there were 4 targets present for last builder? Thats the part where i'm confused, why does it make such a assumption?
unkempt crescent
It doesn't make an assumption. It's a condition that triggers when 4 targets are present
In the apl no extra targets magically appear
keen kite
correct. It says if there are exactly 4 enemys in range, and you got 4 or more cp then finish, but what should i do if there are 5 enemys and i have 4 or more cps? don't finish? just build more?
unkempt crescent
You finish
keen kite
but thats not what the apl is saying, which im trying to understand
unkempt crescent
Because you would waste cps
keen kite
yeah i know, but the apl doesn't seem to reflect that. it says targets == 4 not targets >= 4
so yeah, in game i can make that decision, thats not what i'm trying to say, i say the apl either isn't correct or im misunderstanding something
unkempt crescent
Don't try too hard, finish if you are at 4 and would waste amounts of cp with the next storm
keen kite
Okay, that was what i was trying to find out, if it was just something I am not understanding correctly or if the apl might be slightly wrong, even if it is, its a very specific chain of events and would only be one wasted gcd. I might just make a PR on the simc github then, I just wanted to make sure im not overlooking something obvious since it is in the apl and on the ravenholdt.net guide
regal agate
the question is how you reach 4 with 5 targets
keen kite
you reach 4 with less than 5 targets, then targets spawn, get pulled into your range
something like that, as i said, probably not happening a lot, bunt i dont think anything would break if the condition would be stormtargets>= 4
regal agate
was about to say, that changing it to >=4 seems fine
haven't seen a change in output tho
keen kite
okay, i was just confused bc you wrote exactly 4 in your guide and the apl says exactly 4, so i thought there might be some interaction im just not seeing
regal agate
no, its just to consider cp loss
boreal patrol
that line is just one special case for 4T. with more targets you automatically run into finisher threshold anyway
keen kite
hmm.. I don't see that finisher treshhold :/
actions.stealthed+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=buff.shuriken_tornado.up&combo_points.deficit<=2
# Also safe to finish at 4+ CP with exactly 4 targets. (Same as outside stealth.)
actions.stealthed+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=spell_targets.shuriken_storm=4&combo_points>=4
# Finish at 4+ CP without DS, 5+ with DS, and 6 with DS after Vanish
actions.stealthed+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points.deficit<=1-(talent.deeper_stratagem.enabled&buff.vanish.up)
that are the only lines how you break out of the stealthrotation by finishing, everything else are builder lines.
None of these are satisfied when CP ==4 and sstargets >= 4
last line would be satisfied if I dont have DS, but not with DS
boreal patrol
sure combo_points.deficit<=1 is 4 CP without and 5 CP with DS on any number of targets, it just falls through to that
it even says so in the comment
keen kite
okay. I have 4 CPs. there are 5 Enemys around me in SSrange .I Have DS and I am in the stealthed rotation
actions.stealthed+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=spell_targets.shuriken_storm=4&combo_points>=4`-> false since targets.shuriken_storm is 5 not 4
actions.stealthed+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points.deficit<=1-(talent.deeper_stratagem.enabled&buff.vanish.up) -> if(6-4) <= 1 - (1&&0)
how is 2 ever <= 1?
or is combopoints deficit not what i think it is
noble pendant
Deficit is number from cap, so deficit less than 1, and you have ds, so another 1
boreal patrol
oh yeah, i see now this is about 4cp with 5T. missed that earlier, sorry. it's not really sth you should run into often so it probably does not sim any difference, but fair point
keen kite
depening on how dungeon slice is modeled it probably wouldn't even show up if something like that isn't modeled, but that situation isn't suuuuper unreal is it? I mean ssrange is 8.5yds with some slight movement it might be possible for an add to go in and out of range
noble pendant
Yeah dungeonslice doesnโt have chain pulls like that
keen kite
well then it doesn't really make a difference for sims, its just dor my piece of my mind haha
boreal patrol
well, it kinda does, add spawn times are randomized within a certain range. and the APL does not count all enemies but only those within range of Storm, so addons and sims (if they simulated that movement) would account for them running in and out of range
boreal patrol
I agree it's probably safe to change that target threshold on the line to >=, i can do that next time i'm at it
noble pendant
Thatโs news to me
keen kite
yeah but HeroRotations for example also has this line in it
actions.stealthed+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=spell_targets.shuriken_storm=4&combo_points>=4
i guess I can just do a PR on simc and HR then, as i said just wanted to make sure i 100% am not overlooking some other interaction
boreal patrol
no it's not simulating add movement for DS, i'm just trying to say that the way the APL uses shuriken storm targets already account for those that will actually be hit, so i wouldn't worry about range
noble pendant
Aha I see
boreal patrol
and regarding chain pulls, i think Koji had some actual stats, but the gist is that whe trash pulls are somewhat randomized so that some iteration will always allow for restealth and combat drops between pulls, others can have chain pulls without much of a pause.
see the latest post in #tc-updates
plain coral
I think the Stone Legion Heraldy trinket is incorrectly implemented.
While playing with stats override in sims I noticed a +77 versatility that was "coming from nowhere". After looking at it I was able to confirm that this 77 versatility was coming from the Stone Legion Heraldry trinket.
The problem is : This trinket should give 98 versatility at 233 ilvl (as it is in my sims).
So before coming here I made sure there wasn't any problem with my input, and I removed totally any bonus ID so that the input was :
trinket2="stone_legion_heraldry,id=184027"
This producing a trinket at ilvl 207 which should give 85 versatility, but it only give 60 according to simc report : https://i.imgur.com/deXnRV9.png (I overidded stat to give 1000 versa, but it's the same conclusion in the default setup once you do the maths).
So the trinket DO scale with ilvl, since the 233 ilvl give 77 versa, but the numbers are incorrect. I also went into Beta to confirm the value of the trinket equal to what the tooltip is showing, and the tooltip is correct. The trinket at ilvl 226 give 95 versatility, and 98 at ilvl 233.
Worth to note that the "give 5% additionnal" part does not count the player.
harsh basin
that trinket's implementation is listed as "in beta" so I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't functioning properly
looks like someone literally just applied a fix to it a minute ago so might be good now tho
boreal patrol
relayed it to the guy who implemented it and he just pushed a fix. it was missing a scaling curve
thanks
plain coral
Nice thanks that was fast โค๏ธ
wet glade
Do we know if the healing from recuperator procs Niya's Tools: Herbs Haste proc?
not sure if that makes SnD a "healing ability"
knotty oriole
Good question. Not sure if it's been tested specifically or not
wet glade
i doubt the 30s CD on crimson vial would make it worth, but recuperator may make the 5% haste buff almost permanent if the proc chance is high enough. Haste isnt the greatest rogue stat, so might still not be worth a potency conduit
boreal patrol
just went on beta to check, it does work, actually
even funnier, you don't need recuperator for it to work
it just seems to see the periodic heal effect on SnD, even if it is 0 without the conduit
stealth and shadow dance proc it too
doesn't matter if you have soothing darkness or not. the pure existence of the effect counts
70-75% uptime on 5% haste seems to be no problem
wet glade
interesting
boreal patrol
The only reason it's not permanent is because it has a 10s ICD not to proc during its own duration. After that it's 30% on any heal event
wet glade
so using fuu's sim profile, haste raiting is worth 0.74. So 33 (haste/%)*5%*0.7(uptime) is like 85 dps on a 3520dps profile, or 2.43%
which is roughly a potency conduit
at r&
r7*
boreal patrol
Will look into sim support over the weekend
plain coral
I did a BiS gear sheet btw
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14vOmqQEY2_sJ7RNYu3cf_tcDQ5b2OQsYk-AYmE7-Ros/edit?usp=sharing
boreal patrol
I doubt it is intended but we know blizzard likes to forget heal effects
plain coral
I used a lot of stat override combination to calibrate stats distribution, then took the best stats distribution and find a gear list that match it the best
Should be pretty much accurate
knotty oriole
I mean even if they fix it
We can still take Recuperator for that path
I don't really see why it wouldn't work with Recuperator even if they fix the 0 heal issue
wet glade
or stealth with soothing shadows
knotty oriole
Recuperator is almost certainly going to be the go-to defensive conduit
plain coral
Well if this trait was intended for healers and appears to be a "go to" for dps that can output heal, they will definitely fix it
Like if it procs on leech
knotty oriole
Dunno
plain coral
basically every one can take it (there is a leech enchant)
knotty oriole
I don't really see why Blizzard would care tbh
plain coral
They'll care only if it appears to be broken for whoever is scaling on haste
knotty oriole
Situationally giving up a potency conduit for a finesse conduit
If they want to lock them that strictly
This tree may as well not exist
๐
wet glade
if its worth a potency conduit on a sub rogue...it will be worth a lot more for classes that stack haste
knotty oriole
"Here's a tree, you can pick what you want. But if you pick anything other than one path, we're gonna nerf it!" ๐คฃ
plain coral
hahaha
And if you want potency and soulbind trait toghether go pelagos
And Dreamweaver is the only one who unlock 2nd potency sooner
knotty oriole
I certainly wouldn't complain about being able to get like
Quick Decisions + Recuperator + Prepared for All at the same time
Without any major negative DPS loss
plain coral
Abusing OP generic trait and go full Defensive / Utility conduit
that's big brain
Considering generic trait does buff ally for some, even more worth it
wet glade
And Dreamweaver is the only one who unlock 2nd potency sooner
@plain coral yeah but no real dps traits. Pelagos gets 2nd potency at r21, so not bad. Makes Kyrian Bis in week 6
plain coral
Yes indeed, forgot about it ty
wet glade
week 6-9 will be fun for logs with the covs changing rankings every week
plain coral
Oh well I hope we'll have cleaned the raid at this time anyway
plain coral
I will dive a bit into "soulbind trait that buff allies" in the next coming days also
I need to figure out how I can value this since simcraft only accept single actor. But I wonder how much dps this worth actually.
Like simple think : Lead_by_example buff 3 allies for 33% effectivess, virtually the same than if Lead_by_example had twice the single-actor value it currently has. See the picture
golden briar
@plain coral can you make a bis list for every covenant? ๐
golden briar
(assuming different covenants have different stat prios)
torn dome
FYI the boes arent 213 anymore
plain coral
They don't @golden briar but different legendary can value different stats
boreal patrol
Lead by example has an option that allows to set nearby allies. Should default to 2 already.
harsh basin
shadowlands.lead_by_example_nearby=x if anyone was curious like me and didnt want to look it up
golden briar
@plain coral would love to see stats for finality/MA
golden briar
i feel like akaari would emphasize crit/vers but finality might favour mastery a bit
all feelycraft tho
knotty oriole
It probably will but I don't think either is large enough budget atm to massively skew stats
golden briar
would still love to see it, as i'm likely gonna make finality or MA first
boreal patrol
the difference is little. hang on i did a plot a couple of days ago
Finality left / Akaari right https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/398549488723296258/776444968138178610/unknown.png
civic mango
So Akaari's makes mastery worse, but every other stat better, makes sense
or I guess, not having finality is what makes mastery worse
boreal patrol
mostly the latter. crit vers get bit higher but it doesn't really make mastery worse.
civic mango
right, what I meant to say the first time
unkempt crescent
Loss of lucid
golden briar
thought lucid was covering for NS mostly tbh
plain coral
I noticed Haste is a very good stat until ~300 as shown on the graph. It's probably due to some interaction with Shadow Technics and adding 1 global somehow into SoD windows.
For what I tested mostly, the best combination resolve around gett 0 mastery, ~300 haste, max 850 crit and rest into Versatility
This mastery curve also explain why it is important to aim for 0 mastery, because having just a few of it devalue Niya / Theotar / Pelagos dps trait by a lot (it also explain why Emeni is better early on if you sim with a profile that include some mastery in the gear list)
plain coral
I might have spotted an issue with Simc. I noticed Finality / Akaaris delta was increased when I started using a gear set with Legendary as Chest for Finality. I noticed in reports that the Eternal Skirmish enchant, the damage part, was not present in the report. Might be me incorrectly inputing the legendary items (using bonus_id=legID/stat1/stat2). The +20 agility part was correctly imported tho.
Noticed another issue with shadowcore_oil overriding weapon enchant when imported as an enchant on the weapon.
This is the input I used :
chest="umbrahide_vest,id=172314,bonus_id=6716/1532/7123/6647/6650,enchant_id=6230"
and
main_hand="keepcrawlers_gutripper,id=179492,ilevel=233,bonus_id=1498/6807,enchant_id=6228,enchant=shadowcore_oil"
torn dome
afaik skirmish just doesnt exist in simc
plain coral
It does
it just doesn't when I use it on the legendary chest
when used on a normal non-legendary chest it appears
torn dome
ic
plain coral
I recommend using it on another piece (like helm) insteed or to use 30 agi enchant insteed (when runing profile with lego chest)
boreal patrol
oil sims may be wonky, a system to allow temporary enchants like this alongside regular enchants is still in the works
multiple enchants do not work
a workaround that should work in the meantime is to put the oil on a trinket
golden briar
can't it just be a buff? ๐
glass plaza
Any actual Sims for the covenants in the Chat?
regal agate
simulation results are pinned in the spec channels, if you want to look more into it type !fuu and the bot will link you to my spreadsheet (but pls do so in the spec channels)
glass plaza
Ty 
lament mural
I assume Sims are with BiS gear?
noble pendant
you can check the gear from the raidbots links in the spreadsheet
its done with preraid bis though
boreal patrol
not even the PR profile in simc is very optimized right now. it's just dungeon items i threw quickly together to have a Level 60 base profile to be able to work with and see general tendencies and impacts
ivory coral
Is there a sim for covenants in dungeon slice when you're using the MA Legendary? I'd like to know how far behind night fae would fall, cause they don't synergize very well.
glass rune
there are MA sims with night fae in Fuu's sheet iirc
plain coral
left is old sims, right is todays sim
the only single thing that change is the amount of MH melee
oh wait, could it be ..........
....... Wind fury totem ???
Also on the screen eviscerate is showing a net difference as well.
https://i.imgur.com/FMqj4yd.png this is the stats difference
I mean
it is
look last screen
plain coral
WoW
well it results in a +200 dps with my end game profile.
Any idea from where comes the 300 spell power in the sim ? (2nd screen shot)
knotty oriole
I think globally it was added that we get spell power from int now
which was not in the sim before
but is relevant for some pet stuff recently
so was added across the board
Some testing confirmed that all specs get 1 SP per base Int
plain coral
ok ok so the difference in evisc damage might just be a couple of crits
knotty oriole
Average damage looks the same
Total damage will be higher probably because of Shadow Techniques CP from Windfury
But I don't know how much has been tested about that interaction with WF Totem
For now all the observations seem to be that it is treated as a "true" white hit
But not sure a lot of testing has been done yet to confirm everything
plain coral
ok yes, indeed the total damage might just come from additionnal cp. Interesting to see how much WF totem actually increase our dps
rigid hamlet
Kinda off topic but still tc related. Does anyone know if Agi is "devalued" like secondary stats are when leveling from 50-60? For example, our mastery coefficient at 50 is 0.208, but at 60 it goes down to 0.07. Is agi affected in a similar way or is it always absolute?
formal prairie
Kinda off topic but still tc related. Does anyone know if Agi is "devalued" like...
Primary stat should stay relatively same as its 1-1 in terms of AP / SP
rigid hamlet
ty
noble pendant
Sin m0 bis-list, no covenant, doesn't change the list much. There's a lot of sidegrades, but the general haste > everything else remains. I forced all the gear to 184, you can play around with it yourself if you want
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bG45LHznmVh58TNrXHDBuK
keen kite
Hey, I think the simc sublety apl is missing a check to finish with animacharged CP's in the stealthed rotation.
or aren't we supposed to finish while doing stealth rotation and hitting our animacp's ?
noble pendant
call_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points=animacharged_cp takes care of that check
keen kite
you won't reach that when you are in the stealthed action list and could possibly still build
noble pendant
hm, I see the concern
keen kite
Also somewhat related to the covenant, the pandemic checks don't take the animacharged cp's into acount
for example
actions.finish=slice_and_dice,if=spell_targets.shuriken_storm<6&!buff.shadow_dance.up&buff.slice_and_dice.remains<fight_remains&buff.slice_and_dice.remains<(1+combo_points)*1.8
not sure if you ever wanted to do a 7cp SnD anyway but I guess for rupture it could be worth?
boreal patrol
oh, good catch, re animacharge.
re: snd, it does not work with ER. only damage dealing finishers
lean talon
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8vg965hjkHdaxuUzCK7CgU
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6BtJDZn9PGcpvShCbnsfSK
casting gouge with dirty tricks talented at 4 CP (3C with broadsides) is quite the dps gain on aoe and single target. i didnt put any rules for overcapping energy into this, might even be able to optimize this more. also worth looking into whether you could optimize it with echoing reprimand since gouge is a guaranteed way to gain 1 CP (or 2 with broadsides) but i dont know how i would do that
golden briar
that was also a thing in legion back before prey worked with bte ๐ happy to see it back
boreal patrol
@keen kite i've looked at it and, interestingly enough, there's not really any gain (a very minor loss) to using ER threshold in stealth sublist. my guess is that it comes down to you consuming it anyway and might as well save that global during dance for Shadowstrike
@lean talon good catch, added it to default APL
keen kite
hmm that's really strange yeah, how is the 7cp finisher even implemented in simc?
Do we have numbers on scaling for 7th cp?
knotty oriole
It's not really strange when you think about it
The buff lasts quite some time
As long as you use it eventually, it doesn't matter when that is
Or, think of it this way--you skip a Shadowstrike to use a finisher earlier. Shadowstrike is more of a DPS increase over Backstab than Eviscerate will gain from Shadow Dance
So it's probably offsetting
keen kite
well i'd argue you are getting a pretty substantual dmg increase from dancing, esp when Symbols are also up, but i can see loosing the global over a potential shadowstrike yeah
knotty oriole
Easy for these types of things to cancel out because of how dance is set up
Lots of odd things going on there interaction-wise
(Which is probably why we're gonna look at dropping Rupture refreshes out of dance entirely as well)
keen kite
yeah, I guess thats what sims are for ๐ but we are sure animacharged cp's are implented with 7?
knotty oriole
Yes
keen kite
okay
proper light
hi guys, does numbing poison affect raid/dungeon bosses?
cast time, attack swing time reduction portion
tough hornet
is there a reason simc does snd in opener even with premeditation talented? both guides say rupture at this point https://i.imgur.com/2BK2lVA.png
noble pendant
it's hitting snd because its the top of the finish list, and with a shadowstrike/echoing, snd is in pandemic range
can't speak to if that's intended or not, just explaining why that happens
knotty oriole
I mentioned this to Fuu the other day although he said he looked into it a while ago and didn't really find any gain or loss
I was thinking about changing it just so it looks tidier and for rotation helper addons but realistically the amount of duration you get from Premed is a constant regardless of when you refresh.. it's gonna be sooner or later anyway
golden briar
it's definitely not intended, probably an oversight
there's no reason to snd there if you're gonna double (or maybe even tripple) dance after that
regal agate
snd is in pandemic range there so its not all bad
civic mango
Also, about the gouge and dirty tricks thing, it probably applies to cheap shot out of sepsis as well for the free combo points. Unless you have count the odds, where spending 50 on ambush is probably still worth it. Ambush DPET is pretty solid, though, so perhaps it's not a gain. On my phone at my parent's house, so I can't run it and find out myself
glass horizon
Can you tell me how the optimal rotations for the sim is evaluated?
Is it done by some AI trough trial and error or manually by some experts in a mysterious shadow cabinet?
lost echo
bunch of people create an action priority list
workin together, through things like this channel
glass horizon
ok thank you
civic mango
And ways to tweak it to be more optimized pop into people's heads, so they add it in, and try it out, then see if it improved the results, then tell koji or mystler, hey look, I did a thing. Also you can look at the existing default APL and find ways that it may not be working as intended and correct mistakes
golden briar
snd is in pandemic range there so its not all bad
applying a rupture there so you don't do it in dance could be a dps increase cuz you get an extra evis in dance
west prism
Is there any easy way to sim oils and sharpening stones atm?
boreal patrol
oil as an enchant works but you can only have one enchant on one item. so until we get a temporary enchant option a popular workaround is to put enchant=shadowcore_oil on trinkets
ebon holly
how do i sim as a different covenant and or soulbind on raidbots?
noble pendant
covenant=kyrian
soulbind=soulbind_id/conduit_id:rank
you can also use names in place of soulbind_id, like lead_by_example and planned_execution:7, but typos are common with those
top gear also supports soulbinds and stuff, so you also go by way of that, and just adding items you want to compare
ebon holly
ok ty very much
jagged river
oil as an enchant works but you can only have one enchant on one item. so until ...
Does the same go for sharpening stones atm?
boreal patrol
so, regarding sharpening stones, i don't see an implementation to add them directly atm. however, this can also be worked around by creating a custom enchant and putting it somewhere. example:
shirt=sharpening_stone,enchant=20attackpower
real vale
Hello, I don't know if this is proper place to ask, but I'm not entirely sure about ER usage on Sub's APL
I know on the openers it's using ER with SoD and ShB but no ShD, probably to maximize SS usage
however, the rest of the ER on the APL I can't find any logic to it. For example, on this one, at 48 seconds, ER is casted outside of all CDs (on CD), however, on 1:33, it is casted as the 2nd GCD inside of a ShD window:
noble pendant
the L to the left of the skill being cast refers back to the APL as the line being called in that instance
real vale
echoing_reprimand,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points.deficit>=2&(variable.use_priority_rotation|spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=4)
noble pendant
yup, that's the one
real vale
Both calls are the same, so I guess the APL is basically using ER on CD as long as the other conditions don't apply (SnD & overcapping)
Though there was a bit more min maxing involved onto using it
knotty oriole
ER is very odd
Very little about it is super intuitive because it has some very odd interactions with the rotation
real vale
I'm not trying to correct you guys or anything, just wanted to know what the APL was doing
Guess I answered myself
knotty oriole
Right now it's pretty much following the rule of thumb that applies to most short CDs, which is that using them on CD is almost always best
It's maybe possible we can find some better ways to sync it up with the autocrit
But generally it won't be too much outside of using it on CD most likely
real vale
Thank you Koji
naive anvil
The one spec that might min-max ER is Outlaw with BtE. But the CDs are such that you can usually BtE during the duration of the ER buff.
noble pendant
BiS sheet for the 5 sin players still left on this earth :) thanks to @plain coral for letting me blatantly steal his layout, made things a lot easier โค๏ธ
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GMXg8KjFMLnqcu9irkBXeLDhELg2wNtG9bteEV5BsZ0/edit?usp=sharing
noble pendant
Also some slight gains for subterfuge in single target by forcing a mutilate over an ambush when applicable (mostly an opener thing). About 0.3% across the board with actions.stealthed+="/mutilate,if=talent.subterfuge.enabled&combo_points<=3" at the end of the stealth list. With how competitive that tier is, it's actually enough to put subterfuge ahead of ma in single target depending on situation.
Night Fae: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qcxrBbqYsDzQHMJzZBTcXe
Kyrian: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7mv8wqf5iNWmf7GnAn3dkc
Venthyr: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/djstEogmxs76sJ7XmEvxoe
Necrolord: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7EFcbxoWFdzxRZ8DC9cf5e
I also put in double garrote logic for pandemic just as a comparison point.
Subt vs MA on Night Fae with the APL change: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hivDQ9hGb4ga2NphJheUwH
Subt vs MA with the same profile currently, dead even: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4wbeBbGN3bpM3LJ4W2qr74
grand urchin
Am I missing something regarding https://www.wowhead.com/item=184030/dreadfire-vessel?bonus=6805 and https://www.wowhead.com/item=179356/shadowgrasp-totem?bonus=6805:1472
According to sims Vessel is BiS while totem is near bottom even though totem scales with haste and the item scaling on it is also bonkers? My 184 ilv one does 299 hits and with just 13% haste it does 17 hits, I would think that during lust it would do 30% more hits which would put it far and beyond the vessel
noble pendant
Shadow grasp isnโt implemented in sims
grand urchin
It appears on HeroDMG
grand urchin
Ah that makes sense, so it's only there as a stat stick
tough hornet
Well yes, but the effect itself isnโt implemented
would be good to know this on herodamage when something is half implemented, this trinket is a LOT better than it sims. time to un-disenchant...
noble pendant
would be good to know this on herodamage when something is half implemented, thi...
Iโm probably not the person to talk to about that, I just answer questions :P Herodamage is taken care of by the actual TCโs, I think thatโs a suggestion for mystler or aethys. For now, you can check on implementations in simulationcraft through this sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTpZmGwHpYIxSuKBuU8xilbWW6g0JErLbcxWYfPx_7bY6VSdVzjzCx29xtD7JgSlm2qJ7trlir_tatN/pubhtml#
boreal patrol
Yeah, unfortunately trinket chart on HD can be a bit misleading currently as only some melee trinkets are actually implemented but it's already simming the full trinket list.
boreal patrol
@noble pendant thanks, pushed your change to default APL
worthy blaze
I don't know if you guys already figured this out but I did some dummy practice
Sepsis first then SoD
Sepsis Dot did 3.7k
Sepsis final did 1.5k
Shadowstrike did 1.5k
SoD First then Sepsis
Sepsis DoT did 3.7k
Sepsis final did 1.3k
Shadowstrike did 1.3k
Sepsis final is not based on when it was cast, but when it lands for the 15% damage increase from Symbols
So if you cast sepsis and wait 1~1.5s to do SoD+Dance you'll end up with more dps
noble pendant
iirc, the final hit of sepsis is a different spell id, so it makes sense that the final hit isn't snapshotted
can't speak to the actual gain of holding for final hit, but I'm not sure that gain would be worth the time you spend holding
lost echo
at least in the opener, the SoD comes in the gcd with dance and blades, one gcd after sepsis, so i guess it does end up exploding in SoD
knotty oriole
Yes you want to use Sepsis 1 GCD before cooldowns
noble pendant
is that already base apl?
knotty oriole
Yes
noble pendant
pog
lost echo
lines up for the sepsisstrike plus a vanish strike to be real nice for SnD before you go into the second dance
worthy blaze
I actually find it better to use Sepsis 1 GCD before my second Symbols, rather than on the opener
boreal patrol
Sepsis DoT+Final ticks trigger Shadow Blades shadow damage
so if you can you should stack them
west prism
I actually find it better to use Sepsis 1 GCD before my second Symbols, rather t...
Is this because you don't want to wait for the tick to happen after first dance CD ends?
worthy blaze
So what I do in my intro is
SS > rupture
BS (x2) SnD
SoD+Dance+SB
when dance runs off I dance again
Then right before the second SoD+Dance I cast sepsis.
That way I use dance through the full cycle of SoD and SB, and you'll have dance ready again for your next SoD anyways
mathematically it makes more sense to me to do it that way but I'd love to get some insight
golden briar
delaying cds too long
civic mango
in keys is there a general consensus on whether it's better to get the 30 second cdr on sepsis, or the detonate damage? Missing out on the detonate gets you higher uptime on grove invigoration stacks, and also higher uptime on the DoT
how would you even force the APL to only cast with a <10 second ttk to test it, vs no condition, or only cast with a >10 second ttk
noble pendant
fight_remains<x is the APL call you're looking for, but only sort of. I'm unsure of how that line actually functions in say, dungeon slice
that sort of logic is already built into rupture, so I assume it works fine
but I haven't actually played with it, so I can't confirm
last wharf
so, i think simc usage of bone spike with the emeni buff is questionable. it starts off how it makes sense to (bone spike right before cooldowns, and then a second one before the second dance during shadow blades.
but then it dumps the third out after cooldowns are done, and seems to use it immediately every chance it gets, meaning none of the following buffs line up with symbols/dance
it makes a lot more sense to hold a charge to sync up with symbols usage to me
noble pendant
That problem has been brought up before by various people, and me and @regal agate took a look at it and found no gains by syncing it up with shd or sod
last wharf
what was counter-acting the higher agi during the burst window, do you know?
noble pendant
I think fuu would probably understand that better than me
regal agate
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/x9hgfWpajtDZxYXQwZDNVD/simc
I think this was my Sim, feel free to take a look
last wharf
hrmm, maybe its just that bone spike is so much cheaper than backstab, that replacing one of those in your maintence area is worth more than i mentally account for?
i think your new sim had to refresh inside cooldowns sometimes as well
noble pendant
the lines are coded in a way to cast sbs beforehand
last wharf
yea, i mean the one that isn't sync'd up is making up for not having bonus agi during symbols/dance somewhere, and one thing i saw was that the one that was holding bone spike i saw at least once that it refreshed a maintence thing inside of symbols
while i don't think the "use as it comes up" ever had to
its sort of hard for me to parse 'wall of text' easily, heh
how much agi gain is the sim giving for lead?
civic mango
Should be just 5, right? Not giving team buff
noble pendant
@regal agate I think those sims were lbe allies = 4?
last wharf
i think the 'use on cd' sim had some refreshing during symbols as well, which is sort of interesting
regal agate
Default is 2 in apl, I used 4 for patchwork and 2 for dungeon slice in my spreadsheet
maiden cargo
is raidbots just dosent work with this? the 184 version gives 568 of whatever
torn dome
Never trust tooltips
It is giving the correct amount of stats. Tooltips just often show the base versions or even just nothing
pseudo jolt
Should MA be crafted on ring or bracers? (Sub) Hearing conflicted opinions @regal agate @boreal patrol
knotty oriole
Realistically not sure it matters too much on those slots, they are both low budget. I'd go Ring for flexibility.
pseudo jolt
could you elaborate on what flexibility the ring provides?
knotty oriole
Doesn't have as many slot conflicts
With other gear, eventually if we can equip 2 legendaries, or if they add tier sets later
boreal patrol
There is no definitive answer to what slot is best. Depends on what you have, where it's bigger upgrade, and if you're thinking long or short term. Even then those two slots are close. Wrist can be a main stat boost, ring allows tailoring secondaries.
pseudo jolt
Thanks
bold agate
Does anyone know it the damage meters as showing the character DPS at that point in time of the fight or is it a live average of the fight duration? it will help me when comparing data between sims and what im doing in game
lost echo
should be a live average, but theres probably a way of seeing either depending how you set ur stuff up
bold agate
yeah id kill for an addon that breaks the fight down like simcraft does
noble pendant
That niche would be filled by logs
bold agate
is there anything that does that already, that i don't need to raid to use like Warcraft logs?
zinc pecan
can you please keep these kinds of question out of this channel, this isnt what its for
you have #wow-general
fickle aspen
bit unsure where to ask this but how do i sim oil vs sharpening stones?
noble pendant
sharpening stones aren't implemented, so you have to create an enchant yourself with 20 attackpower
I think oils aren't implemented either, but I could be wrong on that
fickle aspen
off hand="zinks_subtle_shank,id=184797,ilevel=190,bonus_id=6805/1472,enchant_id=6229,enchant=20ap"
This is what i found from the "bis list" in the sub channel. but how do i create oil then? D:
split sorrel
put on trinket, otherwise it's gonna override your first enchant
for example:
trinket1=phial_of_putrefaction,id=178771,bonus_id=6536/1540/6646,enchant=20attackpower
trinket2=dreadfire_vessel,id=184030,bonus_id=7187/1498,enchant=20attackpower
main_hand=faithful_sidearm,id=177865,bonus_id=7187/1531,enchant=celestial_guidance
off_hand=faithful_sidearm,id=177865,bonus_id=7187/1531,enchant=sinful_revelation
I'm trying to compare oil to the stone. If i'm reading that correctly that just sims AP right?
noble pendant
it adds the equivalent attack power that you would get from the stone, yeah
fickle aspen
So wait they both add 20 AP? O_o" I figured the 20 ap would be way better than the oil.
If you boil it down that is
noble pendant
its the 20 ap from the stone, I don't see the oil in there
you can try to just make a copy, and replace the trinket enchants that aethys linked, with enchant_id=6188
see if that works. But I'm still unsure about the implementation of it, so be careful
fickle aspen
Hmm lemme give it a shot and see if it works.
split sorrel
,enchant=shadowcore_oil if you want to try the oil
fickle aspen
ye figured it out :3
,enchant=shadowcore_oil how is it diffrent from enchant_id=6188 tho?
split sorrel
readability
fickle aspen
So i can skip enchant=shadowcore_oil if i want and just use enchant_id's instead?
noble pendant
names and ID's are interchangeable
fickle aspen
I mean i know coders are big on readability, but if its just for me it dosent matter right?
noble pendant
can do the same thing for counduits/soulbinds
fickle aspen
Noone is ever going ot read my spaggethi code anyway.
noble pendant
yeah, doesn't matter
they do the same thing
I typed out conduit names all through beta because I couldn't be asked to remember the id's. worked great except for when I made typos XD
noble pendant
not sure