#tc-research | Ravenholdt | Page 36

abstract viper Jan 3, 2019, 9:03 PM

#

discard ur dmg from fathoms fall and gutripper and u got the 10%

ruby scaffold Jan 3, 2019, 9:04 PM

#

okay thanks!

#

hm doesnt seems 10% still

#

its only 420k, so without it we got 10.46M damage and 730k heal

abstract viper Jan 3, 2019, 9:06 PM

#

h

#

hmm

boreal patrol Jan 3, 2019, 9:21 PM

#

you shouldn't calculate this from full log damage values

#

iirc leech is not shown when you are at max health for example

#

yeah, it just adds to the leech stat https://i.imgur.com/UHF5NwB.png

Imgur

ruby scaffold Jan 3, 2019, 9:26 PM

#

raw healing includes overhealing

#

or not?

#

yeah seems itns not even counterd as overhealing when at full hp

#

@boreal patrol thanks a lot

warm roost Jan 8, 2019, 10:37 AM

#

errr, sorry for crossposting this from the assa channel but I'm not 100% sure the 2t apl is working as it should. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jLApuLrBiuo6N5VkdoZC6E/simc it's doing one garrote per target -> rupture on MT, vendetta, mutilatex2, rupture then exsang, then vanish and double garrote, overwriting the 4 or 5 seconds of exsanged buffed garrote

Raidbots

cobalt hare Jan 16, 2019, 9:45 AM

#

Is there a link to the research behind the priority list for roll the bones?

haughty escarp Jan 16, 2019, 3:28 PM

#

Has there been any research yet regarding the best azerite combinations with the new rings?

boreal patrol Jan 16, 2019, 3:57 PM

#

I think there has been RTB research posted here at some point earlier.

About azerite, well, the power balancing does not change for season 2, so you still wanna focus on the same powers (+ new raid power). The tricky part is finding and getting pieces that actually have nice combinations on them. There is some flexibility and personal gearing influence there, but I put some azerite set recommendations up on the wowhead rogue guides.

dreamy kindle Jan 16, 2019, 4:10 PM

#

Follow up question, has there been any work done towards overall combination sims? I.E. Is Sub going to beat out Sin this coming tier?

regal agate Jan 16, 2019, 4:11 PM

#

sub is likely slightly higher then sin on pure st. however keep in mind that the majority of the raid wont be patchworky and sin benefits a lot from having additional targets or does more damage in downtimes f.ex.

boreal patrol Jan 16, 2019, 4:34 PM

#

yup, sub sims a bit higher with tailored gear, but sin will have the usual progression spec advantages

dreamy kindle Jan 16, 2019, 4:48 PM

#

Figured as much, I know people were speculating that Sub might be able to run a different set up with enough TFD's.

merry pike Jan 17, 2019, 6:54 AM

#

yeah just look at how good tfd is, more value than 10 stack RA atm, so with RA gone sub is positioned to be a really strong spec if you can manage to grab 3 of them

#

2 from raid and one from random piece

plain coral Jan 17, 2019, 8:04 AM

#

Hello ! I'm asking your help to figure out if RS can be a thing in a ST situation where you can actually take advantage of CP refund.

Here are what I found doing testes about this trait :
_1) It does not occurs if there is no viable target for replication i.e. cp refund never happens in pure ST (tested 30mn with an isolated dummie : 0 procs). I got 0 proc in 10mn while maintaining NBs on all dummie in class hall.

_2) It occurs at an average of 1 proc / mn. Surprisingly generating more cp seems to not increase number of procs. I got overall the same if not less # of procs while doing 5targets SStorm rotation than while doing a ST rotation. (need to do more testes here)
_3) Range for replication (and thus for CP refund) is higher than 25m, need to do more testes about this.
_4) Cp refund seems to be separate procs despite point 1).

So assuming all this information I'm curious about how good this trait can be on specific encounter in Dazar'Alor like Council which is a ST fight but with 2 target in range.
My question is : if we assume a 1ppm proc rate, what is the dps value of this CP refund, can it beat other mid-tier trait like 2nd BitS or perforate ? I don't mean to get a specific value but I'm just trying to figure out if it can be noticeably ahead of other trait or not.

ps: I'm wondering this because with 5th ring and what azerite we find in BoD, it is highly possible that we might have to choose between a mid/low tier trait and this one.

cobalt hare Jan 17, 2019, 5:27 PM

#

"actions+=/variable,name=rtb_reroll,op=set,if=azerite.deadshot.enabled|azerite.ace_up_your_sleeve.enabled,value=rtb_buffs<2&(buff.loaded_dice.up|buff.ruthless_precision.remains<=cooldown.between_the_eyes.remains) " - can someone translate what this code is saying?

regal agate Jan 17, 2019, 5:28 PM

#

if you go to the apl wiki:
link: https://github.com/Ravenholdt-TC/Rogue/wiki/Outlaw-APL-Research
the line above staring with # explains the specific line

carmine oracle Jan 18, 2019, 2:24 AM

#

In addition to what stibblesnbits said, do we have any ideas about how good BoD trinkets are compared to the usual suspects (Galecaller and such)?

raw knoll Jan 18, 2019, 4:03 AM

#

Not the proper place for the question @carmine oracle
nothing officially posted, but you can sim the trinkets in simc/raidbots to find out what you are looking at

split sorrel Jan 18, 2019, 5:31 AM

#

They're coming to HD today btw 😃

carmine oracle Jan 18, 2019, 9:43 AM

#

I see. Thanks for the answer nonetheless @raw knoll 😉

#

Good to know, thank you @split sorrel

dreamy kindle Jan 18, 2019, 4:53 PM

#

Are Azerite combos getting updated today too @split sorrel ? befuu

boreal patrol Jan 18, 2019, 4:56 PM

#

There will be new sims for T23 base profiles and the new stuff like trinkets and powers. Item levels throughout will also be increased.

dreamy kindle Jan 18, 2019, 4:57 PM

#

Saweet, thanks for all the work you guys are doing. Tried to do some sims/research myself yesterday for combos and realized I am not you guys lol.

boreal patrol Jan 18, 2019, 4:57 PM

#

Combination sims will still focus on single power and talent interactions + default profile. It is simply too much to sim all possible 6 power combinations for all specs. For that I strongly recommend top gearing yourself.

#

Also, all three specs will have single profiles with T23. So no Exsg/SnD separation to have data in one place.

dreamy kindle Jan 18, 2019, 5:00 PM

#

Will the single profile just be the highest simming combo then?

boreal patrol Jan 18, 2019, 5:03 PM

#

Well, combinations have everything, of course. The other sims carry over the override system when different talents perform better.

#

We may tweak that some more, but I think it's still easier overall to have the data unified compared to swapping pages.

dreamy kindle Jan 18, 2019, 5:07 PM

#

Oh I think I understand a little better now, as in having the data all on one tab and separating them by showing talents taken on the left side? Basically how the Sub Azerite tab is set up now?

boreal patrol Jan 18, 2019, 5:08 PM

#

Yes.

dreamy kindle Jan 18, 2019, 5:09 PM

#

Okay, yea I think that works out better. I go to herodamage to find out the best of the best, if it's a sub optimal set up or azerite piece I'm going to sim anyways. Having every azerite trait listed out for 2 different setups isn't as useful.

dreamy kindle Jan 18, 2019, 7:09 PM

#

Nice job on the updates, look great! Is the Admiral's Signet ring auto giving the bonus even though the sword isn't equipped? I think it's strange it's included in the default for both Sin and Sub.

proven sparrow Jan 18, 2019, 7:23 PM

#

I assume it doesnt, its just the best ring in there

twin ferry Jan 20, 2019, 6:08 PM

#

Question. If a sim only has one SS does the normal apl take advantage of that in cleave or do you need atleast 2. for the apl to switch?

proper salmon Jan 20, 2019, 6:10 PM

#

The APL would switch depending on the fight style you are feeding it, as well as the number of targets (I believe there are some minor changes if you are NE as well).

twin ferry Jan 20, 2019, 6:13 PM

#

So for hectic add cleave would it utilize one or do you need 2 for it to make a difference. I'm still unsure where to view apl for different classes

proper salmon Jan 20, 2019, 6:14 PM

#

The number of traits over 1 doesn't change the APL actions IIRC, with regards to Shrouded Suffocation.

regal agate Jan 20, 2019, 6:15 PM

#

there is a link in the pins

📎 unknown.png

#

just make sure you are on the right one.

📎 unknown.png

#

we added comments to every not straight forward apl line, so it should be easy to relate what is happening

twin ferry Jan 20, 2019, 6:20 PM

#

I did. Thanks for pointing out the pin

#

cycle_targets=1 does this indicate moving to another target to apply something else

regal agate Jan 20, 2019, 6:23 PM

#

its explained in the apl wiki.
https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/ActionLists#actions-modifiers

GitHub

simulationcraft/simc

Simulationcraft engine/GUI. Contribute to simulationcraft/simc development by creating an account on GitHub.

twin ferry Jan 20, 2019, 6:42 PM

#

Thank you all. Helped find everything I need to look into stuff.

proven sparrow Jan 21, 2019, 3:59 PM

#

The default profile of outlaw (for t23 that is) could be using a dagger in the offhand, since the 2p bonus from jaina favors attack speed and as do wits.
Albeit its not a very major gain, but still

#

http://piclair.com/data/avcvb.jpg

proven sparrow Jan 22, 2019, 3:22 AM

#

How exactly is the new mekkatorque trinket functioning?
Looking at the sequence lists it seems to not behave like the tooltip suggests, atleast in the opener
I did a basic stat weight sim of the sub t23 default profile (https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7ipC16qA4VGxq5xMYyASDc) and looking at the buff bar in the sequence table it doesnt really appear until 12 seconds into the fight (?) and then it starts ticking up(the engaged part) at around 18 seconds
http://piclair.com/data/na0ll.jpg
After this it seems to work as expected, albeit with very odd use timings for sub (like this http://piclair.com/data/49wwd.jpg) even though the line using it is this use_item,name=variable_intensity_gigavolt_oscillating_reactor,if=buff.symbols_of_death.up|target.time_to_die<20

Piclair.com - Share what you see!

Share what you see with the rest of the world.

#

Maybe its just me not knowing how the trinket works, but it seems odd that it wouldnt start stacking until 12 seconds into the fight. This makes the trinket miss-align very heavily from shadowblades which would otherwise be in decentish sync with this trinket

knotty oriole Jan 22, 2019, 4:25 AM

#

I believe the default behavior of the trinket without messing with parameters is to use the "freeze" functionality at the peak when possible

#

Cycles every 32 seconds, so at 18s is probably when the On Use is triggered by the default behavior

#

But I'll take a look at the code

#

Looks like in your case it likely was starting at max stack on the pull instead of 0

#

I think for custom use logic you'd have to disable the auto-use param though

proven sparrow Jan 22, 2019, 4:54 AM

#

If it was starting at max stacks wouldnt it show up as buffs though?
Yeah i didnt edit anything about the use line, that was the default one, i was just curious as to why it apparently was never called even though the trinket was used

#

Also is the starting point of the trinket randomized? Idk if it stacks outside combat ingame or is frozen since i havent played the ptr

knotty oriole Jan 22, 2019, 5:04 AM

#

Not sure, I wasn't able to test it myself

boreal patrol Jan 22, 2019, 1:02 PM

#

yeah, this trinket has default usage coded in and i'm not sure how current implementation works with custom APLs. it should use it to maximize the max stack effect, by default. i'm not familiar with the details either atm, so can't say what confusion or not there may be with the sequence report

#

About the Admiral set bonus posted earlier, you're technically right. However, the bonus is not yet implemented in simc because the responsible devs wanted to wait for the raid to see if it is actually active in there. I intend to review the default profile and suggestions once we have that information.

proven sparrow Jan 22, 2019, 1:12 PM

#

The admiral set bonus is the one with extra auto attack damage, not the "in zuldazar" one. So i would be greatly suprised if it didnt work inside the raid

boreal patrol Jan 22, 2019, 1:14 PM

#

Maybe, but we still don't really know. Also I find it weird why they would make two sets of which only one works in the raid. So, let's just wait for a little longer for confirmation.

knotty oriole Jan 22, 2019, 8:23 PM

#

@proven sparrow Apparently on PTR the state of the trinket was randomized on pull. Will see what logs say after people get on live.

vagrant quail Jan 23, 2019, 4:08 AM

#

@split sorrel maybe herodamage simulations should remove Reorigination Array x5 x10

#

its not really important anymore

split sorrel Jan 23, 2019, 4:39 AM

#

Yes it's planned

boreal patrol Jan 23, 2019, 2:33 PM

#

yes, i'll remove it from non T22 sims as soon as i'm over my cold and able to work on it again 😐

surreal vortex Jan 24, 2019, 12:52 AM

#

has anyone tinkered with sin apl to find out number of targets you stop using combo points except to maintain EP, and how many targets you stop even maintaining EP at all when you have echoing blades? and how this changes depending on the number of echoing blades you have

#

or ill give it a try

#

iguess

#

im going to try varying numbers of mobs starting from 5, turning off garrote multidot on cd maintenance since fok with EB is higher, and setting max_cycle_targets=5 for rupture for energy maintenance

#

spending CP whenever you get 4+ compared to only maintaining EP and overcapping CP is already a loss at 5 targets with 3 eb

#

just putting fight length to 600 for good averages idk

#

my char results in 49590 with normal use of combo points, and 50733 with ignoring cp to cast more fans

#

taking out the maintenance of EP results in fok casts going from 400.67 up to 449.38 but on 5 targets it yielded 50434 dps

#

all this is with 3 EB

#

and im simming without exsang since it does weird things when you cut out garrotes outside of stealth and idk how to tweak that xd

#

i swapped it to 6 targets up from 5 and the results are 60161 for maintaining EP, and 60590 for just spamming fan

#

and these are ofc maintaining 5 ruptures

#

7 targets: 70626 (EP) vs 71708

#

8 targets: 81360 (EP) vs 83222

#

for luls at 15 targets 162k vs 172k

#

with only 2 echoing blades, 6 targets : 52509(EP) vs 52006

#

at 7 targets its a difference of 25 dps

#

at 8 targets its 68302 (EP) vs 68938

#

so 6+ targets with 3 EB you maintain ruptures and spam fok and only use a finisher when rupture is falling

#

and 8+ targets if you have 2 EB

#

i guess

#

OH YES and all this is with hidden blades

#

which is very important to mention and i forgot xd

#

the dps difference is less with CT since you have an extra finisher to maintain, EP uptime naturally goes up so the difference isnt as drastic

#

going from practically 100% EP uptime to 70% vs going to 89% with 6 targets for example

torpid coyote Jan 24, 2019, 1:08 PM

#

The trinket continually cycles its state regardless of combat situation by the way; and so pull to pull its initial state is effectively random.

light copper Jan 24, 2019, 1:11 PM

#

With a long enough pull timer, you could probably equip the trinket at a specific time to line up with your raid's opener

wispy badger Jan 24, 2019, 1:17 PM

#

swapping it out and in again has it on the 6s "downtime" after a cycle, then starts stacking every 2s

#

however it has the 30s cd as every on use trinket, so u cant maintain that 6stack in the beginning

golden briar Jan 24, 2019, 1:43 PM

#

1 min pulltimer

#

Ez profit

vagrant quail Jan 24, 2019, 8:19 PM

#

you guys know how Treacherous Covenant is being simulated? what is the effective uptime?

#

this trait seems really good but is a 0 dps gain if under 50% or even can kill you if under 20%

proper salmon Jan 24, 2019, 8:27 PM

#

📎 unknown.png

#

100% uptime

#

and you should be able 50% most of the time as well, well over most of the time even.

vagrant quail Jan 24, 2019, 8:33 PM

#

dont know mythic raiding your hp can go down a lot

proper salmon Jan 24, 2019, 8:34 PM

#

and then back up.

vagrant quail Jan 24, 2019, 8:35 PM

#

prob +- 90% uptime in a fight i think

boreal patrol Jan 24, 2019, 9:21 PM

#

In the latest nightly on advanced, you can manipulate TC with two options:

bfa.covenant_chance (scope: global; default: 1.0) Chance of gaining Treacherous Covenant buff on each update (see bfa.covenant_period). This roughly corresponds to the buff uptime.```

#

In general, all expansion specific options can be found on the SimC wiki: https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/ExpansionOptions#azerite-power-and-item-specific-options

surreal vortex Jan 24, 2019, 10:05 PM

#

Any comments on my wall of text up there?

#

O.o

boreal patrol Jan 24, 2019, 10:18 PM

#

It would be nice if you could do some writeup (maybe on a doc elsewhere if it gets more extensive) of what you wanted to achieve, what you changed and your results with sims. Above it reads a bit like you fiddled with simc and commented as you went along. E.g. maintaining EP sounds a bit confusing since we do not have "EP Maintenance" as such in the APL, so I take it you just removed Envenom altogether. Would be nice if you can sum up for what cases you actually found worthwhile (> target error) increases. Results you mention sound pretty close and may also be limited to HB and/or other specific setups.

surreal vortex Jan 25, 2019, 12:41 AM

#

sure

#

i lost hte profiles but i re-made it

#

for some reason when i opened simc again it just had in every profile tab this message that it was unable to import

#

here you go

#

default APL : https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hWCJznct4S3v6jDCkzAo6M/simc

Raidbots

#

maintain EP : https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oTpayRZHRVmbnepWz6W8Ev/simc

Raidbots

#

drop EP even if all bleeds are good and just spam fok , only spending CP when you need to refresh a bleed : https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oXBeKrRr7ynTVJSxQ6VkQJ/simc

Raidbots

#

obviously with CT being an additional dot to be maintained, EP uptime is higher

#

than if you play with PB or with HB

#

and it will drop from 88% with CT to 70% uptime on EP

#

the differences in APL come in the direct damage abilities section

#

where i comment out the entire section except for envenom, and add the fok

#

for the EP maintenance

#

and in the fok spam i comment everything out and have it only use fok

#

other edits come in the dot section

#

where i comment out applying garrote out of stealth

#

and i set max_cycle_targets=5 on rupture

#

obviously this means you dont run this sim with less than 5 targets

#

and you cant run this sim with exsang at the moment because thhje exsang prep fucks with shit

#

hence the "tinkering" with the APL

#

just to get it to test specific scenarios

hybrid oxide Jan 25, 2019, 12:59 AM

#

Checking my APL Sequence table and I'm finding a strange cooldown lineup, It may or may not be correct but the 3rd vendetta/vanish setup you do without waiting for exsang I'm guessing cause exsang's cd is still about 20-30sec off. Other then that theres a wierd Shadowmeld on the sequence table that just has it doing a shadowmeld without garroting. This is with 3 SS traits and all the other Shadowmelds are used with garrote. Feels like a small error though. https://puu.sh/CBSkT/49eed9cba0.jpg

surreal vortex Jan 25, 2019, 12:59 AM

#

obviosuly to incorporate this info into the general APL would take a lot of effort

#

oh and ofc this doesnt work for less than 5 targets

#

but the entire purpose is to test for large packls anyway

knotty oriole Jan 25, 2019, 1:46 AM

#

I would ignore Exsang for now. I'm working on some more prep-agnostic logic that should be more flexible for AoE

boreal patrol Jan 25, 2019, 12:47 PM

#

@surreal vortex ahh, nice, gotcha. i'm curious, what impact does fight length have on your results? 10min 6T cleave is quite a specific situation there. not talking about those ridiculous 40s sims that show up sometimes, but ~3min would be interesting for a comparison. might also be interesting to see how this works with an add fightstyle, but that will prolly require tweaks to account for the ST periods.

surreal vortex Jan 25, 2019, 1:47 PM

#

ye

#

anyway all the APL i used is there you can experiment with it

#

also if you happent o have poison bomb, obviously not using finishers is more punishing than with the other talents

#

i havent even looked at that one

boreal patrol Jan 26, 2019, 12:44 AM

#

Just dropping a note here that Reorigination Array stacks have been removed from T23 results on HeroDamage with today's data update.

maiden cargo Jan 26, 2019, 2:43 PM

#

i just tried importing the azerite power weights from herodamage and echoing blades comes up as 0 value. basically blank in "Raid, Raid with adds, Herodungeon m+
Is that temporary or did i miss sth and it became rubbish
Edit: Point me to the correct channel if its not meant for this one ^^

boreal patrol Jan 26, 2019, 2:49 PM

#

hmm, thanks for bringing this up. it appears it did not add EB to the string with the correct power id. i remember some issue with some powers having two IDs and causing lookup problems, will look into it

#

if you happen to see any other traits that have a 0 value where you would expect none, feel free to shoot me a note. i'm fixing EB for the next HD build.

maiden cargo Jan 29, 2019, 1:20 AM

#

Hi, looking at part of the outlaw apl for rerolling with ace/deadshot:

actions+=/variable,name=rtb_reroll,op=set,if=azerite.deadshot.enabled|azerite.ace_up_your_sleeve.enabled,value=rtb_buffs<2&(buff.loaded_dice.up|buff.ruthless_precision.remains<=cooldown.between_the_eyes.remains)

Can someone elaborate on what buff.ruthless_precision.remains<=cooldown.between_the_eyes.remains means, and why it is there? The remaining cooldown on between the eyes has an impact on rerolling?

knotty oriole Jan 29, 2019, 1:31 AM

#

@maiden cargo Normally you never reroll off RP

#

But if the duration of the buff remaining is less than the cooldown on BtE, that aspect can be ignored

#

Since obviously it has no relevance if you can't actually use it for anything

maiden cargo Jan 29, 2019, 1:33 AM

#

okay, thanks. But are cooldowns are lowered every time we use finisher, right?

knotty oriole Jan 29, 2019, 1:35 AM

#

Yeah, it's possible the logic could be more robust to account for projected cooldowns but this was shown to be a gain over not doing it at all

maiden cargo Jan 29, 2019, 1:36 AM

#

gotcha

knotty oriole Jan 29, 2019, 1:36 AM

#

Projected CD reduction from CP spend is a little complex since there's so many factors (CP vs. Energy, bonus CP, SS proc rate, etc.)

#

Although could possibly come up with some generalized "safe" average

regal agate Jan 29, 2019, 9:24 AM

#

If you want to sim the subtlety The first Dance changes you can use this spell data overwrite:
override.spell_data=effect.734538.coefficient=1.8719904
Note: not 100% sure if i used the right variable

#

recent apl changes for TFD seem to still apply, so that offsets the nerf slightly if you did not play to the changes yet

boreal patrol Jan 29, 2019, 1:35 PM

#

In addition to the override for TFD above:
Replicating Shadows: override.spell_data=effect.748343.coefficient=46.600619
Treacherous Covenant: override.spell_data=effect.752982.coefficient=0.4809159

twin ferry Jan 29, 2019, 7:17 PM

#

Raidbots and simc should have the changes and be updated

#

Oh that's what you put in updates nvm then

dreamy kindle Feb 1, 2019, 9:22 PM

#

Trying to research into the optimal way to use the agi trinket off of Mekatorque, Variable Intensity..., and I can't seem to find where the sims use it in the APL.

regal agate Feb 1, 2019, 9:27 PM

#

run a quick sim on raidbots -> click "Full html report" -> scroll down and open "Action priority list" trinket is found there (usually under cooldowns).
example for Lustrous Golden Plumage:

📎 unknown.png

dreamy kindle Feb 1, 2019, 9:31 PM

#

Looks like it uses it on CD, I'm guessing specific APL hasn't been written for it yet?

regal agate Feb 1, 2019, 9:33 PM

#

if you talk about assassination, yes its the default action to use it on cd if there is no specific condition

#

iirc last time i checked only GC and trinkets providing a lot of haste where considerable good to line up with other stuff. The strengh there however comes from the haste snapshotting of exsanguinate

dreamy kindle Feb 1, 2019, 9:34 PM

#

Yea I'm simming it for assassination, just trying to figure out if maybe the trinket is undervalued on sims.

regal agate Feb 1, 2019, 9:35 PM

#

Feel free to just expreiment, e.g. if=buff.vendetta.up would use it with vendetta.

dreamy kindle Feb 1, 2019, 9:39 PM

#

Hmm okay is there a place I can view the whole apl so I know how to structure it? Sorry I am definitely not the best with code.

#

Oh I think I found it under the full simc report.

regal agate Feb 1, 2019, 9:42 PM

#

the report has it listed under "Profile" together with your gear, also the 📌 pins in the channel have a link for that.

📎 unknown.png

#

(ofc you need to direct to the spec apl you want, its default to subtlety)

dreamy kindle Feb 1, 2019, 9:45 PM

#

Okay I think I got it, I'll report back here if I find anything useful, thanks!

knotty oriole Feb 1, 2019, 9:49 PM

#

That trinket isn’t used on cooldown by default though. There is some handling in the base code for all specs I think

#

Which uses it when available at max stacks

#

Which is probably how it should be used in most cases. But possibly some other logic can be done to sync it up with CDs.

dreamy kindle Feb 1, 2019, 9:51 PM

#

I'm particularly thinking for TB use and then on CD in between.

boreal patrol Feb 1, 2019, 10:46 PM

#

Yes, this trinket is special and ignores APL. There is a special option to override the default behavior so you can add it to an APL for testing.

raw knoll Feb 2, 2019, 1:54 AM

#

Is the 6 second extension actually factored into the sims, or is that part ignored since the on use is not showing?

knotty oriole Feb 2, 2019, 2:03 AM

#

It is

brisk wadi Feb 3, 2019, 9:10 PM

#

is killing spree usage on multi target optimized? it's not using the first KS until 24 seconds / after adrush and it wont energy cap. I believe it's probably stronger to open with ambush vanish ambush SS roll for first buffs KS then ad rush and go from there, with blade flurry either right before KS or after first ambush

#

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3XGiYs6vjVCvhfmDapzj8p/simc (no lust)

#

with lust it probably wont use until 50+ seconds to avoid energy capping but Ill check

#

yeah first KS cast at 53 seconds with lust

knotty oriole Feb 3, 2019, 9:44 PM

#

I think we’ve looked into KS options before and it’s really tricky to optimize for

#

Probably worth another look but not sure what it will end up being

maiden cargo Feb 4, 2019, 3:17 PM

#

If i want to test the effectiveness of SS on a fight like jadefire masters how would i sim that, just patchwerk/2targets/5mins and assume it takes into a account the empowered garrotes from vanish later in the fight?

knotty oriole Feb 4, 2019, 4:30 PM

#

Jadefire is 2T for the majority of the fight so probably fine to take the simple approach for evaluating

dreamy kindle Feb 4, 2019, 7:02 PM

#

Just as an update I attempted to write in some custom APL for the Gigavolt trinket but could not get it specific enough to use the on use with TB while using it on CD in between TB casts. I'm no good at code writing.

boreal patrol Feb 4, 2019, 7:06 PM

#

"use with TB while using it on CD in between TB casts" does that not just generalize to "use on cd"? crossthink

dreamy kindle Feb 4, 2019, 7:09 PM

#

To be more specific postponing the trinket when TB is close to line up, particularly on pull if the current sims are using it on CD it's probably not lining up with TB.

#

Looks like sims have 6 stacks of the trinket up for 1/2 of TB in the opener.

boreal patrol Feb 4, 2019, 7:15 PM

#

The sim is not using it on cd by default but rather to maximize the max stack buff uptime.

golden briar Feb 5, 2019, 8:19 AM

#

Using that trinket on cd is literally a dps loss

#

Cuz it lines up so if you use it at full stacks once, it's at 0-1 when it comes off cd and you never want to keep below-average crit bonus for longer

#

I wonder how it would sim if you would use it at 3 stacks and on cd tho, but it just seems like it averages out the same as not using it at all

maiden cargo Feb 5, 2019, 10:12 PM

#

Looking at ace up your sleeve on herodamage, the "stacks" chart:

#

📎 ace.PNG

#

I'm curious about why the first stack is about on the same level as the other stacks. Shouldn't the reset make the first stack more valuable?

#

Or is the reset such a negligible bonus anyway

knotty oriole Feb 6, 2019, 12:05 AM

#

The reset is fairly negligible because it is so rare

#

I mean, in a 5 minute sim, only use BtE 27.7 times, which means on average Ace will proc 0.55 times per fight....

#

In the same sim, you spend 489 combo points, so.. yeah.. gaining 2 CP per fight on average is kinda not relevant 😄

round canyon Feb 6, 2019, 12:12 AM

#

there's some math missing there. It's 2% per combo point not 2% per cast

#

closer to 2.65 procs per fight or 10 combopoints

knotty oriole Feb 6, 2019, 12:12 AM

#

Ah, yes you're right

#

Luckily it still sucks 😄

#

It would average a bit less than 10 though, because with the current builds quite a lot of finishers end up at 4CP

round canyon Feb 6, 2019, 12:13 AM

#

all it does is cut into the normal first trait being lower than the rest kind of thing we see on other traits that change playstyle slightly

#

that number assumes 4.8 combopoints average per cast which is what simc does

#

you can compare ace to deadshot and see that the bonus on ace does boost the first trait value very slightly

#

it's just.. far from the primary focus of the trait(unlike wits)

knotty oriole Feb 6, 2019, 12:15 AM

#

But yeah, regardless even if counting at 10, just gaining ~10 CP is only a 2% CP increase and the conversion rate on that isn't fantastic

#

Probably only maths out to around 50-75 DPS or around there?

#

Target error on the HD site is +- 38 DPS on the Azerite chart so pretty easily gets swallowed up on the charts

calm sandal Feb 6, 2019, 2:49 AM

#

With ring/sword outlaw set, would it be a win to start keeping grand melee?

knotty oriole Feb 6, 2019, 4:48 AM

#

Yeah, that is something I need to look at. The aggressive reroll with Deadshot and Ace was a pretty large increase so don't think it's likely to be a gain across the board

#

But could be something like not rerolling when the proc is up or something

#

Going to test the exact mechanics later since I have the set now

golden briar Feb 6, 2019, 8:05 AM

#

There is no proc, afaik, just passively aa doing more dmg

#

What i know for sure is that with the set, you want a dagger offhand

knotty oriole Feb 6, 2019, 2:19 PM

#

Yeah, talked about that in another thread. Although that’s probably not very practical for M prog due to the boss order. Grong MH + H Jaina OH seems likely. But ideally yeah.

glossy flower Feb 6, 2019, 4:23 PM

#

I saw a sim of it where someone kept GM and iirc it wasn't an increase

knotty oriole Feb 6, 2019, 4:50 PM

#

So, for relative terms I looked into it

#

Typically GM fixed is around -4% the normal reroll strategy

#

RP is at -2% as the top single roll

#

Having the set bonus raises GM up to -3.4%

#

Centered on RP it means it’s -1.4% compared to RP instead of -2%. So it’s better with the set but probably not enough to change the reroll strategy.

#

But will still investigate a bit more

muted raven Feb 6, 2019, 6:19 PM

#

"RP is at -2%" what is this relative to?

knotty oriole Feb 6, 2019, 6:22 PM

#

That’s “static” RP (if you were to have RP on every single roll) vs the “normal” rolling strategy

#

With random buffs

muted raven Feb 6, 2019, 6:23 PM

#

Got it, ty

knotty oriole Feb 6, 2019, 6:23 PM

#

Just a specific point to look against, on its own it’s not important

violet oak Feb 8, 2019, 12:47 AM

#

Does anyone have the dungeon shoulder azerite strings to sim in raidbots?

split lintel Feb 8, 2019, 3:02 AM

#

You can grab em from wowhead

proven sparrow Feb 8, 2019, 1:18 PM

#

As per discussion earlier in #assassination i think the talent "Master Assassin" should be investigated a bit. The APL frequently does garrote after vanishing (http://piclair.com/data/xozjh.jpg) and is also rather inconsistent with how it handles the vanishes when its not using garrote. In the opener it typically uses TB inside the MA window whereas after the opener it does env>mut>env, gut feelings says they should probably be handled equally but perhaps im wrong.

Also with the increased ilvls of azerite and multiple double doses available the DPE of mutilate can be higher than TB, and with the envenom buff up mutilate should definitely do more than the tb, probably more than a 3cp envenom as well. There has also been some debate whether the opener is optimal with multiple DDs as well, idk, perhaps we are just feelycrafting way to much, but i would really appreciate if anybody of you tc'ers with better simc knowledge than me checked it out

regal agate Feb 8, 2019, 1:34 PM

#

Those are quite a lot of questions ;)
let's start simple.
Not using vanish if you need to refresh garrote seems to be a win(at least in this profile)
Report: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/xu1EQBFCLi2KZSSjHMCdV9/simc
(i just borrowed a posted profile from #sin for the sim, sry)

📎 unknown.png

#

even with 3x dd changing the vanish condition further seems to be no win

📎 unknown.png

#

(i assume the question was if using 2 builder within vanish was better)

proven sparrow Feb 8, 2019, 1:44 PM

#

Well no not really, ill try to phrase it more coherently this time:
During the opener this is what the apl does (http://piclair.com/data/vos51.jpg) It uses vanish>tb>mutilate>envenom.
My question was whether this was optimal since
A. vanish>tb>envenom(5cp)>muti should be better with having increased chance to procc DD
B. vanish>envenom>muti>envenom (if at 4cp)/mut (if at 2/3)

#

With the exception of delaying tb a little bit A seems strictly better than what APL is doing, but perhaps that delay isnt worth

#

Which is why i think B might be better, which is what the apl is doing in most vanishes after the opener

regal agate Feb 8, 2019, 1:46 PM

#

not using Tb during MA was a loss too

#

letme catch up

proven sparrow Feb 8, 2019, 1:47 PM

#

Also, shouldnt it be worth to save vanish for when TB is up during vendetta? (atm APL does vanish and vendetta almost back to back always)

#

Or well, looks like there isnt always a full TB window inside vendetta either, so holding vanish for that is probably not going to be worth without that

regal agate Feb 8, 2019, 1:54 PM

#

I did a quick hack for question A
Report: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bEASAc4RNA1hgPwCbgKkew/simc

📎 unknown.png

#

what it does:

📎 unknown.png

#

question B falls under further vanish optimization, setting a cp value to force using more builder or finisher resulted in losses

proven sparrow Feb 8, 2019, 2:01 PM

#

The vanish+tb thing also seems to not be a gain unless you lock the fight length

#

And even then its minor

wispy badger Feb 8, 2019, 2:02 PM

#

I mean if you run 10000 iterations or more, then surely TB into vanish envenom muti envenom should be the go to

#

however reality is still that it's only 50% and can fuck the 2nd envenom

regal agate Feb 8, 2019, 2:03 PM

#

forcing vanish to only be used during vendetta or TB also is a noticable loss.
Report:https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oMCnaLJTpfFbfktifuu5dB/simc

📎 unknown.png

proven sparrow Feb 8, 2019, 2:07 PM

#

Im curious on how it can be such a massive loss since you are basicly getting the same amount of casts of vendetta/vanish regardless

#

Im not arguing against you, just being curious

muted raven Feb 8, 2019, 2:10 PM

#

That's 2.3% loss just from holding vendetta and vanish together?

proven sparrow Feb 8, 2019, 2:11 PM

#

Holding them for TB

#

Can you link the sim fuu? in pm or here idc

regal agate Feb 8, 2019, 2:12 PM

#

moment, letme recheck

#

i forgot to consider vendetta right.
actions.cds+=/vanish,if=talent.master_assassin.enabled&!stealthed.all&master_assassin_remains<=0&!dot.rupture.refreshable&(buff.vendetta.up|buff.toxic_blade.up)
hence vendetta is a debuff it should be
actions.cds+=/vanish,if=talent.master_assassin.enabled&!stealthed.all&master_assassin_remains<=0&!dot.rupture.refreshable&(debuff.vendetta.up|debuff.toxic_blade.up)
this also makes it far closer.
report:https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qTNq6NhEJ8kWhDpKCsuQBW/simc

📎 unknown.png

muted raven Feb 8, 2019, 2:16 PM

#

It's odd that it would be anything but a gain though. Not losing anything by holding it

proven sparrow Feb 8, 2019, 2:17 PM

#

I was thinking along the lines of
actions.cds+=/vendetta,if=!stealthed.rogue&dot.rupture.ticking&(!talent.subterfuge.enabled|!azerite.shrouded_suffocation.enabled|dot.garrote.pmultiplier>1)&(!talent.nightstalker.enabled|!talent.exsanguinate.enabled|cooldown.exsanguinate.remains<5-2*talent.deeper_stratagem.enabled)&(cooldown.toxic_blade.remains<10)
ontop of the vanish change

#

Since you dont actually need to use vendetta when tb is up, but just to make sure the tb is up during vendetta

#

But as tawney said, to me it feels odd that it wouldnt be gain at all, since you shouldnt be losing anything by holding it. (assuming a standard 5 min +-20% you only get 3 vendetta/vanish regardless)

#

But idk

muted raven Feb 8, 2019, 2:20 PM

#

And it's definitely a gain for exsang right?

regal agate Feb 8, 2019, 2:23 PM

#

this is witht he TB cooldown condition added in addition.
report:https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tiuD7zXCXxCvu2C13VMLhY

📎 unknown.png

proven sparrow Feb 8, 2019, 2:25 PM

#

Toxic blade is also a debuff like vendetta so thats why the first sim you linked was basicly identical

regal agate Feb 8, 2019, 2:27 PM

#

doesent change the outcome, but yes your right (its also a debuff)

proven sparrow Feb 8, 2019, 2:27 PM

#

But whelp, guess im just wrong.

#

Wait, its still not using vanish in tb windows

#

In the sim you linked

#

Its using vanish outside vendetta too

#

http://piclair.com/data/mfak8.jpg

regal agate Feb 8, 2019, 2:29 PM

#

yes bc. its either TB or Vendetta

proven sparrow Feb 8, 2019, 2:29 PM

#

TB isnt up either

raw knoll Feb 8, 2019, 2:29 PM

#

Vendetta vanish TB mutilate env is what i think we’re trying to force if not mistaken

proven sparrow Feb 8, 2019, 2:31 PM

#

TB was used 14 seconds before vanish there, and using vanish>envenom>vendetta>garrote is not very optimal

regal agate Feb 8, 2019, 2:31 PM

#

having both up seems to be a marginal win
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vXNsVymnNbrnE3inSCUxaL/simc

📎 unknown.png

proven sparrow Feb 8, 2019, 2:32 PM

#

Although now its using 2x mutilates per vanish again

regal agate Feb 8, 2019, 2:34 PM

#

here is the report with both set to debuff btw. in case you want to invest by looking at that (remember it uses vanish if one is up not require both in this one)
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/g9Th37fsd6DnfqGwujYq8i/simc

📎 unknown.png

proven sparrow Feb 8, 2019, 2:36 PM

#

With the OR it just always uses it right after vendetta as usual

#

The "having both up" sim has really odd vanishes with double mut and/or arcane torrent

regal agate Feb 8, 2019, 2:39 PM

#

the "win" is gone if you force a hold of TB for vendetta

raw knoll Feb 8, 2019, 2:40 PM

#

Aren’t we trying to force the hold of vanish+vend and not holding TB?

regal agate Feb 8, 2019, 2:40 PM

#

just added a condition to not use TB if vendetta comes up next 10 secs

proven sparrow Feb 8, 2019, 2:42 PM

#

Yeah i was moreso thinking about holding vendetta for tb, rather than the oppsite, as losing casts on TB is a lot easier than losing casts of vendetta

regal agate Feb 8, 2019, 2:43 PM

#

heres a sim for the with vendetta + tb up https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rq5W1Ed8AU9T5VurJ8ZsYg/simc
with the condition to hold Tb if vendetta is close https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/esDsWzMruQsDc5GqmkLKiv/simc
here with holding vendetta for tb:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/k6CyZ9Zcrwe65i2oGPECQK/simc
not if garrote is refrashable:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2ci4uqhcYD182vEzYYSU4t/simc

proven sparrow Feb 8, 2019, 3:00 PM

#

Right, some of those iterations end at like 4:15 which means that delaying vanish and/or vendetta for any amount of time is probably not a good idea

boreal patrol Feb 8, 2019, 3:01 PM

#

I see a lot of sequential thinking again, which can be fine. But seeing how close all of these values are "just Vanish/MA on CD as long as you don't have to refresh bleeds" still sounds like a solid and easy bet. Garrote exclusion might be worth adding, it was no gain when i fiddled with it a while ago but with the gear levels we're reaching and DD stacking this might be a good and more intuitive change.

#

Thanks for looking into room for updates though.

proven sparrow Feb 8, 2019, 3:06 PM

#

Yeah the vanish sequencing seems fairly irrelevant from what we've seen here.
But im still very curious on how stacking your cooldowns together isnt a gain at all, using vanish during TB should be a pretty massive boost to the effectiveness of vanish as a cooldown. Especially with how frequently TB is up, meaning that you dont actually need to hold vendetta and vanish for too long to make them align

#

I guess it comes down to the fight variation and that some iterations end at 4.05 so you would miss out on 5 seconds of vendetta if you held it for 6 seconds to align with TB

#

Sorry my previous messages were unclear and very unspecific fuu :p

regal agate Feb 8, 2019, 3:11 PM

#

fight lenghs of the sim where 5 mins not 4 (300 sec)

proven sparrow Feb 8, 2019, 3:11 PM

#

Its 5 mins +-20% baseline yeah?

regal agate Feb 8, 2019, 3:12 PM

#

its between 4 and 6 mins essentially ye

#

sample sequence only takes 1 iteration, so there will be variance

muted raven Feb 8, 2019, 3:13 PM

#

Does the apl hold vend/vanish for exsamg?

regal agate Feb 8, 2019, 3:14 PM

#

read the first line# Vanish with Exsg + (Nightstalker, or Subterfuge only on 1T): Maximum CP and Exsg ready for next GCD actions.cds+=/vanish,if=talent.exsanguinate.enabled&(talent.nightstalker.enabled|talent.subterfuge.enabled&variable.single_target)&combo_points>=cp_max_spend&cooldown.exsanguinate.remains<1&(!talent.subterfuge.enabled|!azerite.shrouded_suffocation.enabled|dot.garrote.pmultiplier<=1)

lost zinc Feb 9, 2019, 11:12 AM

#

Sorry, this is a general question, and Crtl+F fails rn, but does anyone know the formula to energy regen affected by haste for assassination

regal agate Feb 9, 2019, 11:14 AM

#

10% haste = 1 more energy per sec for all rogue specs at base.

lost zinc Feb 9, 2019, 11:14 AM

#

You are a gentleman and a scholar

#

🍻

lost zinc Feb 9, 2019, 12:20 PM

#

Sorry to be a bother, but may I also get Tick rating affected by haste formula please as well ^^

golden briar Feb 9, 2019, 12:29 PM

#

i think bleeds tick at 0.5 ticks per sec, so your total energy if both bleeds are up should be ~7*(1+haste)+10(1+haste) per sec if that's what you're looking for

lost zinc Feb 9, 2019, 12:31 PM

#

oh, thank you but I was referring to the base tick rating reduced by haste

boreal patrol Feb 9, 2019, 12:33 PM

#

tick rate / haste, so e.g. Rup base tick time is every 2 sec, assume 30% haste: every 2/1.3~=1.54s

lost zinc Feb 9, 2019, 12:33 PM

#

tyvm!

#

🍻

boreal patrol Feb 9, 2019, 12:33 PM

#

also note that haste increases multiplicatively

lost zinc Feb 9, 2019, 12:33 PM

#

oh?

#

I'm sorry, would that mean tick/(1+(H/100)) = new tick

#

as in, its curved

#

?

boreal patrol Feb 9, 2019, 12:34 PM

#

curved?

#

think of it this way: 100% haste means you cast/tick/reg at double the speed, so a 2s dot ticks every 1s (2/(1+1)=1)

lost zinc Feb 9, 2019, 12:36 PM

#

I was saying if you were to graph it, as X increases, (y) tick rate would plot in a curved fashion ?

#

ah I understand now

#

same formula for reducing cast times and gcds

boreal patrol Feb 9, 2019, 12:37 PM

#

yup, albeit rogue gcd is fixed

lost zinc Feb 9, 2019, 12:37 PM

#

???

boreal patrol Feb 9, 2019, 12:37 PM

#

rogue gcd is always 1s (0.8 with AR)

lost zinc Feb 9, 2019, 12:38 PM

#

I'm doing garage doodles with a friend for assassination rogue

#

I have a habit of reading and re-proving things to myself so it locks in upstairs

lost zinc Feb 9, 2019, 3:50 PM

#

📎 unknown.png

#

I'm trying to make a regen formula

#

could anyone look this over and point me in the right direction?

boreal patrol Feb 9, 2019, 3:52 PM

#

uh, can you explain what you are trying to calculate there and what each part is supposed to do?

lost zinc Feb 9, 2019, 3:52 PM

#

Givens: Vigor, 10 energy per second baseline, Venomous Wounds

#

I'm having trouble because I know I'm getting hung up on venomous wounds

#

and *14 by tick rate is incorrect, it needs to be divided by something

#

I think total energy (170) divided by time required to reach full (by hasted tick rate)

#

Ultimately, I'm trying to graph for x (haste), and y being energy per second with both formulas working together

boreal patrol Feb 9, 2019, 4:00 PM

#

ok so, first of all you should only look at raw regen itself before adding VW. couple of points:

energy reg and haste are multiplicative to the base reg, so 30% haste and maybe another passive 20% from somewhere means 10*1.3*1.2=15.6 eps
there are additional energy gains with different type. AR is a multiplicative modificator as in 1). but there are effect regenerating a fixed amount like vendetta, buried treasure and similar effects (you can notice them by looking at the effect type in spell data, see Power Regen value on https://www.wowhead.com/spell=256495/vendetta, it's an Energy per 5s value), these are added on top

lost zinc Feb 9, 2019, 4:03 PM

#

Oh, I uh.. I know I'm trying to search for values heavily based in haste

boreal patrol Feb 9, 2019, 4:03 PM

#

if you use dejacharacterstats or something similar you can show your energy reg value in the character panel ingame, this should help matching and verifying your formula

lost zinc Feb 9, 2019, 4:07 PM

#

the more consistent values, VW and base regen

boreal patrol Feb 9, 2019, 4:07 PM

#

and for VW, unless i forget sth myself, it should just be bleedNo*7*haste/base_tick_rate

#

(which is technically slightly off because partial ticks give full energy but this should not matter for an approximation)

lost zinc Feb 9, 2019, 4:30 PM

#

I'm sorry

#

Had to take care of something

lost zinc Feb 9, 2019, 7:34 PM

#

📎 image0.jpg

#

Somebody please check this

#

I’ve spent ... way too much time

plucky mural Feb 9, 2019, 7:37 PM

#

hahah right. that looks like work for free.

lost zinc Feb 9, 2019, 7:43 PM

#

((((x/10)+10)+(14/((2/(1+(x/100)))*12.1)))*1.1)

#

📎 unknown.png

#

I think I finally did it

#

set haste to x and you'll graph a linear line of per second energy regen, combining venomous wounds and base regen. Should be easy to chart out haste break points or whatever the fuck

#

man, took me since 3am this morning

knotty oriole Feb 9, 2019, 9:13 PM

#

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=((((x%2F10)%2B10)%2B(14%2F((2%2F(1%2B(x%2F100)))*12.1)))*1.1)

Wolfram|Alpha: Making the world’s knowledge computable

Wolfram|Alpha brings expert-level knowledge and capabilities to the broadest possible range of people—spanning all professions and education levels.

plucky mural Feb 9, 2019, 9:36 PM

#

MVP

#

📎 unknown.png

boreal patrol Feb 9, 2019, 11:16 PM

#

I think we're starting to cludder this channel. So further thoughts should prolly go elsewhere / to DMs. Please re-read what I explained. You're making a lot of science out of it and according to your formula you'd get 60 energy per second when you have ~400 haste rating which, i am inclined to believe, is not quite matching ingame values.

#

Besides I can recommend spreadsheets for fiddling with such data in real-time.

lost zinc Feb 10, 2019, 2:31 PM

#

You right, 14 energy divided hastened tick rate times total ticks to full doesn’t seem right

#

And my bad I thought the research channel was for math

#

It’s still missing something.

14 / ((base tick rate / (1+%))*ticks to full )

14 divided by the new tick rate * ticks to full ..

14 times new tick rate divided by ticks to full maybe?

#

I’ll clear outta here, could you tell me where the math channel is

boreal patrol Feb 10, 2019, 2:36 PM

#

Maths yes, but this is less mathematical research but more you trying to figure sth out. Which is also fine, but it's getting more extensive and somewhat out of scope now. Feel free to DM me.

lost zinc Feb 10, 2019, 2:37 PM

#

Ok 👌

#

Sorry to be a bother

sinful apex Feb 11, 2019, 5:26 PM

#

I think the damage portion of Nothing Personal is being undervalued in sims. With 2 stacks of NP it's averaging about 5.5-6.7% of my damage ingame depending on fight length, however it's simming as 3.7% of my damage on a 5 minute fight.

Picture is the overall damage on all bosses of a full Normal clear I did yesterday, however I first noticed this after checking my damage breakdown around ~100 pulls on M Jaina which was 6.6%.

📎 npnp.png

boreal patrol Feb 11, 2019, 5:29 PM

#

hm, comparing overall values for such an ability tied to a long cd to a sim can be dangerous due to fight lengths. i'd compare multiple fights solo to a sim matching the fight length roughly. and since this is about NP damage, i'd compare the actual dmg values, not the % of the total.

proven sparrow Feb 11, 2019, 5:30 PM

#

I checked our 30 wipes last night (on mekka, so most uses were without bl). Took total damage divided by amount of casts, which gives the damage done by each vendetta, and it came out to around 77k

#

Whereas in my sims the DPE is around 57k (with one trait that is)

sinful apex Feb 11, 2019, 5:30 PM

#

Here's the sim: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7Pk8zvYsT4pivv9rgrmUq1/simc

here's the normal log: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/AzCZa79WcdrGbxBP#boss=-2&difficulty=0&wipes=2&type=damage-done&source=92

Raidbots

proven sparrow Feb 11, 2019, 5:31 PM

#

With most uses being around 70-80k and closer to 90-100k with bl

#

With famos example that would be 100k in sims and 158k in logs, but its slightly skewed as you mostly only get 1 vendetta on normal fights, and those will always have bl

sinful apex Feb 11, 2019, 5:34 PM

#

Comparing a lot of M Jaina pulls right now (no lust ever) it's looking like 130-140k dmg per Vendetta cast with 2 NP traits

boreal patrol Feb 11, 2019, 5:49 PM

#

hah, fix inc, that helped thanks.

#

NP was not hasted when I tested and implemented it. It must have been changed and slipped at some point.

dreamy kindle Feb 11, 2019, 5:50 PM

#

Should be interesting to see if it's worth to take more than 1 NP then.

boreal patrol Feb 11, 2019, 5:55 PM

#

Done. Should appear in next raidbots nightly and corresponding HeroDamage results. Thanks again!

golden briar Feb 11, 2019, 10:18 PM

#

woo, my NP might actually sim higher now

hot rapids Feb 12, 2019, 1:21 PM

#

Outlaw;
Anyone got the maths behind not holding onto Broadsides as a single buff? Been holding onto it (out of curiosity) on opulence prog and I swear it feels strong enough for a single buff hold (running 3 DSs may play into this) the crits seem to be insane on pistol shot.
Could of course be I’ve just got lucky crits the times I’ve done it and over a longer period it falls over.

knotty oriole Feb 12, 2019, 3:20 PM

#

Have tried some logic a few times recently to hold it with Deadshot buffs and other potential optimizations but none seemed to be a gain.

hot rapids Feb 12, 2019, 3:33 PM

#

Have simmed it via custom APL following advice from #outlaw, looks to be a roughly 90 dps loss

golden briar Feb 12, 2019, 11:04 PM

#

can any1 explain how Endless Hunger can possibly sim higher than Ancients' Bulwark on patchwerk? it just straight up gives less vers full time

#

and i'm talking herodamage sims, as they are both simmed with the same gear, i haven't done a sim myself

knotty oriole Feb 12, 2019, 11:30 PM

#

They show up as functionally identical on the HD page for me. Within the error margin anyway. For sims they should be the same.

boreal patrol Feb 12, 2019, 11:34 PM

#

Yeah, looks like target error to me.

knotty oriole Feb 12, 2019, 11:39 PM

#

Realistically though, Endless Hunger is going to be better for pure DPS because any time you are moving you will lose the Bulwark Vers which seems to poll every 3 seconds according to the spell data(?) and seems pretty detrimental on fights like Opulence and whatnot for the fire add as an example

sinful apex Feb 13, 2019, 12:52 AM

#

Ancient's Bulwark is literally instant, you lose the effect the moment you move and gain it back as soon as you stop

#

No 3 second delay or whatever

knotty oriole Feb 13, 2019, 12:53 AM

#

Even if that's the case it's still just strictly inferior for pure DPS purposes. A lot of DPS will be done while moving bosses, spinning bosses, etc.

sinful apex Feb 13, 2019, 12:53 AM

#

Agreed, was just following up to clear up the info

golden briar Feb 13, 2019, 8:04 AM

#

Yes, but i was asking about the herodamage sims, as ancients' bulwark provides more vers at the same ilvl, if you're standing still.

#

So it should always be higher in patchwerk sims

#

Ofc i agree it loses a lot of value on just about any movement fight

river kestrel Feb 13, 2019, 11:33 AM

#

Is there any research on how much better DD gets with 1 twist the knife due to better envenom uptime?

golden briar Feb 13, 2019, 11:40 AM

#

I think the difference is almost negligible

#

But i may be wrong

#

Envenom uptime is already pretty high

proven sparrow Feb 13, 2019, 11:54 AM

#

^ from my sims ttk trait increases uptime from 72% to 74%, which is essentially negligable

boreal patrol Feb 13, 2019, 12:40 PM

#

actually, looking at spell data, Endless Hunger has 0.02% more versatility at the same item level

#

Ilevel 400
Hunger: Scaled Value: 560.1499 (coefficient=0.780153)
Bulwark: Scaled Value: 560.0371 (coefficient=0.779996)

golden briar Feb 13, 2019, 12:45 PM

#

My bad then, was looking at herodamage values, they showed very different numbers

boreal patrol Feb 13, 2019, 12:53 PM

#

You mean the wowhead tooltips on HeroDamage?

#

If you click on them, they also show the same value at the same level.

golden briar Feb 13, 2019, 1:07 PM

#

The mouseover ones 😅

boreal patrol Feb 13, 2019, 1:18 PM

#

Yes, it's just getting tooltips from wowhead. I don't really know what determines the values shown in the tooltips by default myself, but apparently it shows the two at different levels. Maybe based on a related items min level or so. 🤷

golden briar Feb 13, 2019, 1:18 PM

#

Idk, but that clears up my whole confusion

proven sparrow Feb 13, 2019, 2:06 PM

#

Speaking of different coefficients, do the pvp trinket (passive agi and vers on use) and plumage have different values? Since plumage sims higher on herodamage but they do the exact same thing

boreal patrol Feb 13, 2019, 2:10 PM

#

Same thing there. They sim pretty much the same.

golden briar Feb 13, 2019, 6:09 PM

#

plumage gives like 1 more vers on use i think

#

idk why but i remember it being so at ilvl 370 iirc

#

maybe 1-2 at higher ilvls

vagrant quail Feb 13, 2019, 8:02 PM

#

Lustrous Golden Plumage and Dread Aspirant's Medallion have the same effect at same ilvl yet plumage is 2° best trinket and medallion 5° dont know why

#

https://www.wowhead.com/item=162897/dread-aspirants-medallion&bonus=1592
https://www.wowhead.com/item=159617/lustrous-golden-plumage&bonus=1572:4778

Wowhead

Dread Aspirant's Medallion

This blue trinket of item level 280 goes in the "Trinket" slot. It is looted from Secret Supply Chest. In the Trinkets category. Added in World of Warcraft: Battle for Azeroth.

Wowhead

Lustrous Golden Plumage

This blue trinket of item level 340 goes in the "Trinket" slot. It is looted from The Golden Serpent. In the Trinkets category. Added in World of Warcraft: Battle for Azeroth.

unkempt sail Feb 13, 2019, 8:59 PM

#

ever heard of rng

boreal patrol Feb 13, 2019, 9:03 PM

#

Yes, iirc plumage has +1 more so there is an extremely slight and negligible difference. Anyway, this is exactly the same situation as with Hunger/Bulwark that was mentioned right before. Please have a look at the actual values of both trinkets and the target error. Not just the rank.

#

(Technically: Plumage coeff: 2.512195, Medallion: 2.507761, so ~0.18% more versa on Plumage)

vagrant quail Feb 13, 2019, 9:19 PM

#

yes i mentioned it because Hunger/Bulwark talk above

#

just another example of trinket that it happen

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 8:04 AM

#

I was wondering if someone could update the aoe sims apl for assassin? like 6t+ etc. The current APL is completely inaccurate for highest dps results especially for those with EB traits.
Here are my notes on what the APL is doing wrong

Garrote on cooldown on any 3-10t sim. At 2-3 targets, this may be okay, but at 4-10+ targets this is definitely a dps loss and not worth the global.
Ruptures on all targets even 10+. According to my 6t 40 sec sims, my FOK has a 83k Damage per execute(DET), meanwhile my rupture has a 36k DET. The apl should be prioritizing FOK over ruptures and only casting ruptures to maintain enough energy to cast FOK on every global. (The sweet spot is 4-5 ruptures, or 2-3 ruptures combined with 3 empowered garrotes.
The current APL is wasting ALOT of energy, mainly due to reason #1 and #2. Simming for 6+ on any duration 40sec-5min. Past the 20 sec mark in the apl, you are at 100% energy for the rest of the sim. Gaining significantly more energy than you can spend. Obviously you should be energy capped in an aoe rotation, but the optimal APL should aim for 35 energy/second, just enough to spam FOK every GCD because it's your highest DET spell with EB Traits. Currently the APL is keeping up too many ruptures/garrotes and it's gaining 50 energy+/second and wasting most of it.

#

Suggestions

If mob count > 4, do not cast garrotes unless vanish->garrote
If there's a restriction in APL that won't allow you to waste combo points, remove it. There should be a breaking point where casting FOK at 5 combo points over finishers is a dps increase, this will depend on how many ruptures/garrotes you have out, and amount of EB traits. I play with 3 EB traits, and 5 dots(ex, 3 garrotes + 2 ruptures, or 5 ruptures) is enough to sustain enough energy to spam fok every gcd.
Maybe input a restriction that prevents you from wasting energy instead? Ex, prevent ruptures if you are gaining more than 40 energy per second(at this point you already have 5+ rupts out) & cast FOK instead.

Basically I want sims to answer these questions if possible

How many bleeds do I need so I have "just enough" energy to spam fok every gcd, without overcapping on energy?
How many targets & Echo Blade traits do I need for FOK damage > Finisher damage?
Assuming I'm energy capped, is it still worth it to cast 1 finisher every 4th global to keep up elaborate planning? This is important for reaping packs.

#

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qDvYFQJWfFubxTJvnhv1tP/simc link to my 6t 40 sec sims. I'm not a sims apl guru or anything but I'l hoping you geniuses here can figure it out

Raidbots

tight elbow Feb 18, 2019, 3:00 PM

#

@pseudo jolt in your second point 2. There should be a breaking point where casting FOK at 5 combo points over finishers is a dps increase, this will depend on how many ruptures/garrotes you have out, and amount of EB traits. Are you sure more FoK casts performs better than the 4s 10% elaborate planning damage window a finisher would apply to all poisons/bleeds and subsequent FoK casts?

plucky mural Feb 18, 2019, 3:23 PM

#

@tight elbow just get some twist traits so after E cap hammer fok env fok env fok env.

golden briar Feb 18, 2019, 3:51 PM

#

Ep is 10% extra dmg for 3 globals, which is definitely worth less than a full fok once you're energycapped and have no prio target to envenom

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 4:44 PM

#

I’ve been doing FOK FOK FOK -> finisher, just to keep up EP, not sure if it’s better or not, i was hoping sims would tell me

knotty oriole Feb 18, 2019, 5:07 PM

#

@golden briar Not really that simple. Have to consider the Envenom buff and Poison Bomb procs as well.

golden briar Feb 18, 2019, 5:10 PM

#

on enough targets, FoK becomes such a majority of your damage that envenom buff will not matter imo... let's just get someone to optimise the APL so we can know for sure, it's just speculation at this point

knotty oriole Feb 18, 2019, 5:10 PM

#

Since the Envenom buff makes FoK considerably stronger I’d say it’s actually not a foregone conclusion that FoK will be better than a finisher at any reasonable target count.

celest storm Feb 18, 2019, 5:11 PM

#

@violet palmvanie So loads of factors going on here by the looks of it, I've never looked at this kind of sim before(lolimnoobsry), but it caught my attention for sure and I've been mulling over all the data a while now, for what it's worth i looked at the sim example...

You have a Prio Target
Your average energy GAINED per/sec is 33.5 and your average energy USED per/sec is 34 over the course of your designated 40sec fight. You managed your resources perfectly, not terribly like you thought!!!kappa
HiddenBlades NightStalker Exsang? (fun times, also wonky times it seems) So here, it looks like you had something around 88% Benefit from HiddenBlades Talent, aka only like 3 of your FoK were not buffed- aka seems its overly trying to make use of this Talent perhaps???

#

#1 Reason for Wonky imo = THE FIGHT IS SUPPOSE TO LAST 40 SECONDS. This, I believe, is the root cause of most all the garbage casts it decides to do. So think about it, that means the sim is hardwired to make sure all of the adds to die at or as near to the 40second mark as possible. So even tho your Envenoms crits were hitting for close to garbage dmg by anyone's standards especially when looking at how much dmg 1GCD of essentially every other skill, was more dmg mostly - the sim is forced to use Env's on the Prio Target so that it dies on time with the lesser HP adds. Which brings me to SoB applications - if the sim wants you to make use of HiddenBlades as much as possible(1ish Hid.Blade stack per/FoK? okay yay 20% i guess - but at what cost cuz lets be honest, i didnt look, but im gonna go out on a limb here and assume your first FoK is like half your FotK dmg or something lol), and at the same time also requiring adds to die same time(at 40sec mark-ish) all of the sudden it makes sense to add some type of predictable dmg to every single add, ya? Thats where SoB and FoK/EB come in to dink away at the non prios while u dumping hella traits and gcd's into the prio, then the sim is happy cuz its a big suicide death pact at or around 40sec yay

Ok so if im wrong just disregard this post, and also if this is the case - i apologize.
Oh and i also deeply apologize for my grammar, run-on sentences and just the general Fail Aura that this post is emitting heavily. ❤

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 5:12 PM

#

@knotty oriole you can still do FOK FOK FOK envenom, to keep up envenom buffs/EP, as opposed to FOK envenom fok envenom, but regardless the apl is doing none of that anyways, its only ruptures, and envenoms at the end of the fight

plucky mural Feb 18, 2019, 5:13 PM

#

its gonna be rough to figure due to variable target count, number of EB, crit rate, and number of twists.

knotty oriole Feb 18, 2019, 5:14 PM

#

Well I always caution against short duration sims. They are not usually a great idea because of how it interacts with cooldowns and other timing factors.

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 5:14 PM

#

the 40 sec apl has the exact same apl has 5 mins though

#

so duration isnt a factor here imo

knotty oriole Feb 18, 2019, 5:14 PM

#

Has to be done very carefully to be relevant

#

Sure but for example I’m sure the APL is trying to set up a Vendetta cooldown window for example

#

Which is just the way the APL is going to work in a generalized sense.

boreal patrol Feb 18, 2019, 5:15 PM

#

A 1 second sim has the same APL as a 10min sim, yet the 1s sim might come up with Muti being better than garrote.

#

(exaggerating your point here to illustrate that length does matter)

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 5:16 PM

#

what im trying to say is that the fight length here isnt a factor on the apl being overcapped on energy

proven sparrow Feb 18, 2019, 5:17 PM

#

Envenom buff makes FoK considerably stronger
It really doesnt when you have 3 EB traits though

#

Depends on the target count ofc

plucky mural Feb 18, 2019, 5:17 PM

#

ep uptime.

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 5:18 PM

#

id fix the apl myself but im too small brain for that

#

with how popular m+/reaping is nowdays, its def worth a look into

knotty oriole Feb 18, 2019, 5:19 PM

#

I’m sure there are some marginal 6T improvements that could be made to the APL but based on experience I would say a few things

#

One is that they probably aren’t as large as you’d think

#

Two is that even with Reaping the percentage of pulls with that many targets is still the vast minority.

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 5:21 PM

#

is there a way to check sims on energy gain that is wasted?

knotty oriole Feb 18, 2019, 5:21 PM

#

(6+ mob pulls only account for for 7% of common dungeon route pulls when subtracting out low HP trivial mobs. I happen to know this since I was doing analysis on it last night.)

#

Yes in the resources table

#

It has a wasted column for each gain

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 5:22 PM

#

that's true for common folks i suppose, but as the keys go higher and higher, you have to do double/triple pulls to make timer

celest storm Feb 18, 2019, 5:26 PM

#

so at the 40sec mark @pseudo jolt your prio add in the sim had 10 or 11% hp left

#

which is basically dead to the sim i would imagine

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 5:27 PM

#

and what if i dont have a priority target and want to focus on max aoe dps?

celest storm Feb 18, 2019, 5:28 PM

#

well im just saying i think it is trying to end the fight at the time you want

#

aka however many things u are attacking, it wants them dead at that point in time

#

not earlier or later

#

u are simming a 40sec fight

knotty oriole Feb 18, 2019, 5:28 PM

#

Duration based sims do use an HP estimator to fit things in yes. But it’s not perfect.

celest storm Feb 18, 2019, 5:28 PM

#

that has got to weigh heavily on decisions

#

im intrigued tho and i admit im just a padawan

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 5:30 PM

#

i can change the sim to 5 mins, it doesnt really change the fact that youre in overflow of energy

celest storm Feb 18, 2019, 5:31 PM

#

for part of the fight yes...

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 5:31 PM

#

the sims says im overflowing/wasting 26.68% of my energy

plucky mural Feb 18, 2019, 5:31 PM

#

simplify your request at a cap of 4-5 ruptures?

#

it would env instead

knotty oriole Feb 18, 2019, 5:32 PM

#

Well energy gen is only part of why you put up bleeds. It’s gen+dpet. So at some point it just becomes about dpet alone. Which does depend pretty heavily on fight length.

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 5:32 PM

#

that would increase prirotiy target dmg yes, but wont do much for overall aoe dmg because rupture has a higher DET than env

celest storm Feb 18, 2019, 5:32 PM

#

again you averaged 33.5 energy gained per sec, and used 34 energy per second on average.

It's simming for 40sec

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 5:32 PM

#

that 33.5 number doesnt include overflow

#

only showed actual gains

plucky mural Feb 18, 2019, 5:33 PM

#

you arent counting for twist bump to env.

#

but ok

celest storm Feb 18, 2019, 5:33 PM

#

it doesnt include overflow? so that means u have a lot of overflow? ididnt see it but idk

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 5:33 PM

#

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cZBCtNiZsFioN5mjbd8C16/simc

Raidbots

#

at 5 minutes the problem gets worse

#

40.97% overflow

#

📎 over.png

celest storm Feb 18, 2019, 5:35 PM

#

Overflow is acceptable maybe? Because maybe overall fight duration Energy gained vs energy used is all it cares about

#

cuz at the beginning you were not overflowing at all

knotty oriole Feb 18, 2019, 5:35 PM

#

Mystler and I can certainly investigate some target caps or duration checks for Rupture which seems like the key consideration but just cautioning that I wouldn’t expect miracles in terms of a dps difference here.

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 5:36 PM

#

the big difference will come to those with 3 EB traits

#

for those without eb, they wont see a difference

#

but thank you for checking

plucky mural Feb 18, 2019, 5:37 PM

#

then you would need a high crit profile. like 50% with trinkets up ?

knotty oriole Feb 18, 2019, 5:37 PM

#

I think we’d prefer to see a more analytical breakdown of why it would be better at N targets. E.g. what is the DPET on FoK at that target count for you vs. Envenom or Rupture over N seconds. Etc.

#

This all does feel quite speculative

plucky mural Feb 18, 2019, 5:37 PM

#

agree

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 5:37 PM

#

yes that would be great

plucky mural Feb 18, 2019, 5:38 PM

#

you are just identifying that in a multiple rupture condition we cap e. and dont have a way to dump it agressively. noted

celest storm Feb 18, 2019, 5:46 PM

#

Yea the sim is just overprioritizing bleeds for the sake of energy regen, without giving itself any awareness of wanting to cap EnergyRegen, which is fine for probably the majority of gamers in WoW that just go in m+ and wing it with some random pugs or friends that do standard small pulls - it'll work great for them i'd bet
Just needs to know sometimes too much of anything is too much, and its then became a bad thing 😄

#

but idk how u fix it wanting to fit everything inside a required parameter of wanting everything dead at the same, at the designated sim duration too

#

well i guess if you sim'd for any amount of seconds you wanted it could fix it

#

for specific tests maybe

boreal patrol Feb 18, 2019, 5:50 PM

#

well, i haven't had the time to go through all of your suggestions as a whole for you @pseudo jolt. however, if you scroll up a bit there was someone investigating FoK spam with EB and found minor gains in high target situations (which can help but was too specific to make it worth updating any default APL for now). about reducing energy gain from bleeds, it's not hard to do a quick test. I ran a quick cap on active bleeds like only 5 or 6 Rup+Garrote earlier but it turned out in losses even on ridiculously high target sims.

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 5:51 PM

#

but did your sims include ppl with high crit % and 3 eb traits?

#

you ncan use my profile if youd like ill dm you the string

boreal patrol Feb 18, 2019, 5:52 PM

#

yes 3xEB+HB ofc

celest storm Feb 18, 2019, 5:53 PM

#

yea crit is the key in every way here

#

thats what your E Regen and dmg is based off of really

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 5:53 PM

#

could you link me the sim where it shows a loss? i wanna check it out

boreal patrol Feb 18, 2019, 5:56 PM

#

On an unrelated general/moderation side note: This is still the research channel and I'd kindly ask people to refrain from spamming terms like "completely inaccurate", "APL is wrong", "does stupid things", "X is definitely better" here and then not provide any helpful research. Suggestions and discussion are welcome but please be more constructive if sth behaves differently than what you do. Thank you!

split lintel Feb 18, 2019, 5:56 PM

#

I believe you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. You're over glorifying the energy recap

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 5:57 PM

#

one reason im guessing why it would show a loss, it is casting envenoms(no ttk traits) over rupture at the energy cap, instead of casting another FOK which is higher DET

#

@boreal patrol noted

boreal patrol Feb 18, 2019, 6:01 PM

#

Gotta hop elsewhere now, but I'll get back on the topic when i have some more time this week.

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 6:04 PM

#

@split lintel Gotta disagree, my FOK has a 86k dmg per cast, meanwhile rupture is only 36k. Why would it make sense to continuing rupturing when im already energy capped instead of casting an spell that does 2.3X more damage?

wispy badger Feb 18, 2019, 6:08 PM

#

why exactly do we need to sim everything? xd

celest storm Feb 18, 2019, 6:08 PM

#

is that taking into account your first FoK or what is your average FoK after the first one (that does like all the FoK dmgs) Nightstalker so good @pseudo jolt

pseudo jolt Feb 18, 2019, 6:09 PM

#

i believe DET is an average

#

probably include EB procs as well

golden briar Feb 18, 2019, 6:10 PM

#

i mean, if sims have don't do proper things, then statweight sims are completely wrong

celest storm Feb 18, 2019, 6:10 PM

#

sim has always prioritized ST optimization from what i hear

#

when u get into more and more and more adds, then number of variables that can happen, and ones that you need to happen are insane

wintry reef Feb 18, 2019, 10:56 PM

#

Would having 45% crit aside from spyglass Debuff vary priority on rtb for outlaw? Or would it make RP lower in value

unkempt sail Feb 18, 2019, 11:24 PM

#

it would mean you have too much crit

#

and i agree with what tisumi said

#

there's no need to sim every single niche situation in this game

proven sparrow Feb 19, 2019, 5:32 PM

#

I've found a pretty noticeable gain from using my badge trinket with vendetta instead of just on cooldown (which essentially wastes 5 seconds when you apply dots only and then misses out on vendetta duration ontop of that). I havent checked with other trinkets besides that one and the medallion from pvp but i'd imagine its a gain there aswell

#

http://piclair.com/data/7ux5y.jpg (https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sPcMpLatwjYcW7EsjkxDMP)

Raidbots

proven sparrow Feb 19, 2019, 6:14 PM

#

Which also, subsequently, makes the medallion (or plumage, both at 400) a better option than the trinket the default profile is using

#

http://piclair.com/data/tcct8.jpg (https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dL3bvxjeCYXsywWTbj28ua)

Raidbots

#

Another thing about the default profile, i've noticed that some speccs are utilizing m+ azerites in their base profiles. Is this something rogue tc:ers just have agreed on that we shouldnt do or whats the consensus?

regal agate Feb 19, 2019, 6:22 PM

#

#1 thanks for looking into pvp trinkets, iirc we didn't check those when we looked over trinkets 👍
#2 yes due to the azerite vendor m+ pieces are allowed in the default profiles
#3 (even if not asked) simc homepage now also shows dungeonslice with different gear sets, however only some few specs changed that atm(so many profiles use st talents/gear).

proven sparrow Feb 19, 2019, 6:28 PM

#

Because there is a pretty sizeable gain (around 2% from what i've seen) to use perfect m+ pieces compared to the raid ones (see: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fC1y9xD27dQszKqLZm5k6b) )

regal agate Feb 19, 2019, 6:30 PM

#

yes, but all profiles have this ruleset, if they use raid gear its usually bc. it has the best trait setup or the spec requires TC pieces

proven sparrow Feb 19, 2019, 6:31 PM

#

But my point being that the best trait setup isnt from the raid (for assa atleast)

regal agate Feb 19, 2019, 6:32 PM

#

i think mystler compiled a list of best raid and dungeon pieces in the wowhead guides

proven sparrow Feb 19, 2019, 6:36 PM

#

That list is made mostly by looking at the 2 "big trait" rings and doesnt really take into account that overwhelming power on the inner ring can make an otherwise subpar trait (such as ttk) win out in the sims

regal agate Feb 19, 2019, 6:38 PM

#

if you find improvements to it feel free to share, also if sth can be improved in the wowhead guide just dm/ping mystler about it.

proven sparrow Feb 19, 2019, 6:39 PM

#

I posted the raidbots link a few messages back with what i've found to be the best setup 😉

knotty oriole Feb 19, 2019, 6:49 PM

#

M+ gear was not allowed in profiles when it only came from the cache.

#

When the vendor was created we decided that excluding them from the profiles didn’t make much sense.

#

Since it is reasonably possible for it to be attained in a “BiS” scenario without extreme levels of RNG like before.

#

Overwhelming Power is of course a very strong trait for a lot of specs right now in terms of optimal usage though.

#

Keep in mind the current profile was made before the Nothing Personal trait was determined to have magically changed to being Hasted. So that’s part of this for sure. 😃

proven sparrow Feb 19, 2019, 7:02 PM

#

Well, the profile i suggested still only uses 1 NP, which the default also does. But NP should gain even more value if the default profile is using plumage/medallion so perhaps that will make the NP better than blightborne

boreal patrol Feb 19, 2019, 7:36 PM

#

Thanks, I'll look into updating it.

knotty oriole Feb 20, 2019, 9:17 PM

#

@pseudo jolt @celest storm So I spent some time investigating this and there are a few gains here but not a ton. Increasing the TTD threshold on Rupture to 12s at 4+ targets was the most clear gain. Envenom being used only to refresh the Envenom buff at 6+ targets with 2+ EB traits was also a gain.

#

Dropping Envenom entirely didn’t seem reasonable at any normal target count or without multiple EB traits.

#

All this was noticeable gain but still relatively small. In the area of 2.5-3% against 6T

#

But nothing super life changing or anything.

#

Will need to do some more tests to generalize this a bit more accounting for every possible combo of EB and PB vs target counts. We will make some tweaks here but, as expected, the gains aren’t massive and shouldn’t affect sim results all that much.

pseudo jolt Feb 20, 2019, 9:20 PM

#

What's the crit rate of the template you used?

knotty oriole Feb 20, 2019, 9:20 PM

#

Part of what I think was making this appear larger than it looks like is Hidden Blades skews the DPET of FoK quite a bit even though it has no relevance on this situation.

#

E.g. Hidden Blades will always contribute the same damage regardless of if you delay FoK or not. As long as you don’t cap. (Which you don’t)

pseudo jolt Feb 20, 2019, 9:22 PM

#

what does TTD stand for?

knotty oriole Feb 20, 2019, 9:22 PM

#

Time to die

#

Right now the APL will refresh Rupture on any target that will live more than 4 seconds

#

At 4+ targets this appears that it can increase. Or perhaps when the requested poisoned_bleeds target is reached.

#

But generally 12 seconds survival seems to be the most standout threshold

pseudo jolt Feb 20, 2019, 9:24 PM

#

Perhaps the big difference will be to those with 3 EB traits + High crit value

#

3% sounds right if youre using a default template

#

try simming my character Dayvanie-Area52 (im logged out in dungeon gear), currently sitting at 3 EB with almost 2200 crit rating/40% unbuffed, the difference will be massive on my character

#

"Envenom being used only to refresh the Envenom buff at 6+ targets with 2+ EB traits was also a gain"

So does this mean envenoms should be used to keep up Envenom buff instead of keeping up EP? 😮

knotty oriole Feb 20, 2019, 10:43 PM

#

Well it does both at the same time but I didn’t really think it made much sense to make a specific rule for EP. EP buff is short enough that’s kinda factored into the “normal” finisher logic.

#

And probably a big part of why it holds up for so long

pseudo jolt Feb 20, 2019, 11:54 PM

#

Assuming 5+ bleeds out already, it would be the difference between FOK x3 --> Envenom to keep up EP or FOKx5 -> Envenom to keep up envenom buff

boreal patrol Feb 21, 2019, 3:05 PM

#

@proven sparrow Hey, I've been going through your suggestions today and everything looked fine. I've updated the usage for Badge, Medallion and Plumage accordingly. Besides I modified the default profile to use Plumage (PvP trinkets are not allowed per the profile rules) and your suggested azerite pieces. I also updated my wowhead guide accordingly. Thanks! 👍

proven sparrow Feb 21, 2019, 3:09 PM

#

👍 I thought i should break up the feels with some facts in this channel 😉 The pvp rule doesnt really matter much since medallion was simming higher than badge anyway and since plumage=medallion

halcyon falcon Feb 21, 2019, 3:34 PM

#

I've been looking a little im my sims with ma, i wondered that in the opener vanish tb mut env and on 2nd vanish it was vanish mut gar env. Isn't it worth delaying vanish 2 gcds to try to allways get vanish env mut env and hope mut crits both hands, ideally in tb window? And not refresh gar or rupture inside the crit window?
Im on mobile and not at home to test with custom apl for a few days :/

#

I'd guess with planing ahead, refreshing bleeds maybe little early to not lose a vanish for the fight and fit 2 env into the window is way more profitable, its our highest per execute ability that can crit

raw knoll Feb 21, 2019, 5:10 PM

#

Ask in #assassination

halcyon falcon Feb 21, 2019, 6:13 PM

#

Just an tc assumption, refreshing gar early misses 1 tick for ~6k and 75% crit env is ~52.5k averaged out so 46,5k/120s are 437.5 dps for that 2 min window, ye its milkmaidens maths, but it's an apl question not #assassination
As soon as i am close to a pc i'll try my best on the apl.

raw knoll Feb 21, 2019, 7:23 PM

#

@halcyon falcon you can also use the search function. Yes it’s APL related but MA window is discussed regularly in the #assassination channel and if you come up with a better APL to test against that’s ideally what is being looked for.

📎 image0.png

rustic ibex Feb 22, 2019, 11:08 AM

#

Has the 2piece set from Jaina been added to simc and does it work with Blade Flurry?

golden briar Feb 22, 2019, 11:39 AM

#

Yes and no

muted osprey Feb 22, 2019, 6:33 PM

#

I never check this but recently saw all the new stuff from the raid

#

Are any of the pieces there any good for rogue, but more so assa?

regal agate Feb 22, 2019, 6:46 PM

#

its way to early to ask about the next raid

muted osprey Feb 23, 2019, 12:55 PM

#

I just thought people had started theorycrafting with the multitude of new, sort of unique items and what they could bring

wispy badger Feb 23, 2019, 6:23 PM

#

raid isnt even announced yet, give it some time and it will be there just in time

clever charm Feb 25, 2019, 8:33 PM

#

If I'd like to try out a new opener APL, should I just brute force an action sequence?

regal agate Feb 25, 2019, 8:35 PM

#

only if rly nessecery

clever charm Feb 25, 2019, 8:36 PM

#

Just want to see if with MA I should open with a mutilate->rupture->mutilate->garrote

regal agate Feb 25, 2019, 8:37 PM

#

that should be doable without a sequence

clever charm Feb 25, 2019, 8:37 PM

#

Yeah, I assume with a few conditionals on mutilate and putting it higher in the action sequence

solar swift Feb 25, 2019, 9:05 PM

#

@clever charm https://pastebin.com/ZBSizWB1 opener apl for muti/muti/rupture/garr/vend/vanish/tb, or muti rupture muti if proc

Pastebin

Custom opener APL - Pastebin.com

clever charm Feb 25, 2019, 9:08 PM

#

Thanks @solar swift I've got something running and it looks like it does nothing to really change dps over a 5 min fight.

solar swift Feb 25, 2019, 9:09 PM

#

yes, even with 3 doses

clever charm Feb 25, 2019, 9:10 PM

#

Strange, I thought it would

wispy badger Feb 25, 2019, 9:10 PM

#

it's 1 more mutilate with additional crit

#

over 5mins

#

what kind of dps increase did u expect?

clever charm Feb 25, 2019, 9:11 PM

#

Also changed the vendetta window to have two TB and MA buffed envenoms

dreamy kindle Feb 27, 2019, 6:35 PM

#

Going over the MA/DD opener again, it looks like a lot of higher ranked logs are doing TB/Vanish/Envenom instead of what the APL suggests Vanish/TB/Mut

golden briar Feb 28, 2019, 7:37 AM

#

It has more variance

golden briar Feb 28, 2019, 8:18 AM

#

Basically they do about the same on avergage but if you want to rank, you do the one with higher variance and hope for the best

dreamy kindle Feb 28, 2019, 3:58 PM

#

Got it, thank you for the response.

proven sparrow Mar 4, 2019, 12:40 AM

#

Im sure you checked when doing the thing mentioned in updates but i'd just like to check. The MA crit in simc affects other passive damage sources as well yeah? Such as poison bomb and NP, even though they're not active abilities

knotty oriole Mar 4, 2019, 12:46 AM

#

Yes, those are all part of the ability whitelist

#

Blizzard uses some special functionality to modify AAs that was not being accounted for

proven sparrow Mar 4, 2019, 12:51 AM

#

Just checking my own logs over multiple nights the crit% on melee seems to be consistently higher than anything else (during the MA window)

#

Like, 10% higher overall across 30+ pulls

#

So does it somehow increase the crit % more of melees than the others?

#

http://piclair.com/data/xp2od.jpg 34 pulls today

#

http://piclair.com/data/bg3lo.jpg 39 pulls yesterday

knotty oriole Mar 4, 2019, 12:53 AM

#

Depends, could just be because of attack table stuff

#

My melee is consistently reporting as 5% higher in general even filtering when the buff is absent, so could just be how WCL is reporting skewed by the miss%

proven sparrow Mar 4, 2019, 12:56 AM

#

Ye maybe, that sounds reasonable

full solar Mar 4, 2019, 11:46 AM

#

is it already possible to sim zandalari trolls ?

gaunt gale Mar 4, 2019, 11:52 AM

#

not yet implemented in simc

full solar Mar 4, 2019, 12:01 PM

#

thx 😃

sinful venture Mar 9, 2019, 3:27 PM

#

Any word yet on the zandalari troll sims?

boreal patrol Mar 9, 2019, 3:34 PM

#

not all racials are implemented yet

#

HeroDamage will have them as soon as they're in

cyan marsh Mar 10, 2019, 8:42 AM

#

How are we expecting them to perform?

regal agate Mar 10, 2019, 9:35 AM

#

There is no reason to ask that now, sims will help you with that once the recails are finished in simc.

glossy flower Mar 10, 2019, 3:03 PM

#

So I wasn't sure how to find it myself but I was wondering during the Laminara part of Blockade does the removal of parries and chance to miss autos make GM good enough to keep solo with DS or Ace traits

calm venture Mar 10, 2019, 7:48 PM

#

You should be behind any and all mobs/bosses so that parries and misses aren't a problem anyway

glossy flower Mar 10, 2019, 8:02 PM

#

Yeah but isn't there a base 3% chance to miss anyway

#

Which is why you get more damage out of autos on bosses like Garothi Krosus and Laminaria

golden briar Mar 10, 2019, 10:23 PM

#

i thought the miss chance was bigger for AAs

#

so often i miss 2-3 in a row

knotty oriole Mar 10, 2019, 10:25 PM

#

Yes, there is a DW miss penalty for white attacks

boreal patrol Mar 10, 2019, 10:28 PM

#

only AA can miss when you dual wield and the miss chance is 19%

#

i find it interesting that they disabled misses on Blockade

glossy flower Mar 10, 2019, 10:28 PM

#

Is the lack of this penalty enough to make gm a viable keep on Laminaria

boreal patrol Mar 10, 2019, 10:28 PM

#

prolly the concept of a "huge boss"

proper salmon Mar 10, 2019, 10:28 PM

#

Yeah they had mercy on DW due to the foward facing conditional.

glossy flower Mar 10, 2019, 10:28 PM

#

Even with ace or deadshot

boreal patrol Mar 10, 2019, 10:29 PM

#

misses are not positional

#

so standing front or back does not make a difference

proper salmon Mar 10, 2019, 10:29 PM

#

Do we still get parries in front?

boreal patrol Mar 10, 2019, 10:30 PM

#

Looke like no, on Laminaria

proper salmon Mar 10, 2019, 10:30 PM

#

k

boreal patrol Mar 10, 2019, 10:45 PM

#

from a quick sim with default profile and misses disabled, yes GM is better, but not worth changing the rerolling strategy

glossy flower Mar 10, 2019, 10:45 PM

#

Ok tyvm

golden briar Mar 10, 2019, 10:46 PM

#

could MP overtake EP for assa though with the increased deadly poison dmg? 😄 doubt it but asking for just in case

knotty oriole Mar 11, 2019, 3:51 AM

#

Nah, makes no real difference. It's still 1.7% behind

#

You can put in auto_attacks_always_land=1 into your custom SimC APL if you want to try stuff though

full solar Mar 11, 2019, 6:15 AM

#

Is there already an implementation of zandalari in nightlys ?

proper salmon Mar 11, 2019, 6:15 AM

#

📎 unknown.png

full solar Mar 11, 2019, 6:16 AM

#

do you know the race name for simc input? is it "race=zandalari" ?

#

hm.. okay, I realise, that its not only a "racechange" in simc, cause of the different loa buffs :/

regal agate Mar 11, 2019, 8:38 AM

#

iirc loa will be handled in a separate condition, so it will be sth along:

race=zandalari_troll
zandalari_loa=nameofloa```

boreal patrol Mar 11, 2019, 11:57 AM

#

yup, HeroDamage will have one entry for each DPS-affecting loa, as soon as they are all implemented

modest salmon Mar 12, 2019, 12:13 AM

#

I want to know if there a big difference in the opener change with MA with we go Garrote, Multi, Rupture, Multi, Vendette, Vanish TB, Envenom, Multi, Envenom
or Garrote, Multi, Rupture, Multi, Vendette, Multi, Vanish, TB, Envenom, Multi, Envenom?

brisk wadi Mar 12, 2019, 1:16 AM

#

on 2 target opener / vanish with 3x SS and subterfuge it's not doing tripple garrote, only two

📎 2targetopener.png

#

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3Y3vNhQYYDqiyh5urxFAnF/simc

#

not sure if it's been tested to see if 3 garrotes is less damage than not overcapping 3CP with the global and delaying vendetta one more global but 🤷

#

I think in practice most players do 3 garrotes

sinful venture Mar 12, 2019, 2:29 AM

#

anyone know if hero damage will be updated tomorrow with zandalari racials?

#

or simc for that matter

calm venture Mar 12, 2019, 3:24 AM

#

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/266712108861751296/554547999615746068/unknown.png

wispy badger Mar 12, 2019, 2:21 PM

#

@brisk wadi most multi target apl's havent been fixed for sin, especially in terms of garrote efficiency

#

was the same for 3+ targets not doing 3x garrote iirc

boreal patrol Mar 12, 2019, 3:09 PM

#

I think I fixed 3T garrotes the other day. In that example above, it's 2T, i don't quite see the issue atm. Why a third garrote? Both are already refreshed during pandemic.

muted raven Mar 12, 2019, 3:18 PM

#

Garrote T1, Garrote T2, Garrote T1 gives 30% more on the empowered garrote to T1. Afterwards wait for it to run out to vanish and do it again.

#

That’s usually what people do in 2T scenarios, have no clue if it sims well. Always just assumed it was correct

boreal patrol Mar 12, 2019, 3:20 PM

#

that's the usual opener with exsg when not refreshing during pandemic matters

#

in your sequence above it does not give you more garrote uptime unless i miss sth

muted raven Mar 12, 2019, 3:22 PM

#

Only because it vanished before the pandemic garrote would run out

boreal patrol Mar 12, 2019, 3:23 PM

#

Looking at MT, first garrote at 0 lasts for 18s. Pandemic refresh with vanish at 13 gives you 5s on top = 23s total from there, so empowerement lasts until 36.

muted raven Mar 12, 2019, 3:23 PM

#

Er ran down rather

boreal patrol Mar 12, 2019, 3:24 PM

#

Same +1s for the second target

#

what good is another Garrote then?

#

you get 1s more and waste 1gcd, congrats

muted raven Mar 12, 2019, 3:28 PM

#

G T1, G T2, G T1 would leave T1 with 23s G and T2 with 17s G with 3s into pull. Wait 17s and T1 has 6s left on G and T2 ran out. Vanish>G T2, G T1, G T2

#

Wouldn’t that be more empowered garrote time?

#

Im bad at math but that should be about 10s more empowered garrote time overall

boreal patrol Mar 12, 2019, 3:33 PM

#

oh, right, i misread, triple garrote on both opener and again after garrote dropped. right

#

i think i simmed sth like that some time ago, but don't remember, will make a note to recheck

muted raven Mar 12, 2019, 3:35 PM

#

Danke my good man

brisk wadi Mar 12, 2019, 6:23 PM

#

Ya it's just like pandemic on ST opener (garrote rupture garrote) but (garrote1 garrote2 garrote1)

#

I'd assume it's more damage

naive nimbus Mar 13, 2019, 1:11 AM

#

who here excited for zandalari loa sims

knotty oriole Mar 13, 2019, 1:14 AM

#

I want some $/DPS statistics accounting for both pre and post-sale faction change costs 😄

proper salmon Mar 13, 2019, 1:14 AM

#

Smart move on their part, though an obvious one.

sudden hamlet Mar 13, 2019, 1:41 AM

#

📎 unknown.png

naive nimbus Mar 13, 2019, 2:02 AM

#

translation?

sudden hamlet Mar 13, 2019, 2:55 AM

#

paku, bowsamdi and kimbul loa

#

quick maffs

cyan furnace Mar 13, 2019, 3:49 AM

#

does that count the assassination mastery?

muted raven Mar 13, 2019, 3:56 AM

#

I doubt mastery affects it

#

That would be OP

knotty oriole Mar 13, 2019, 4:02 AM

#

Mastery is whitelisted, definitely would not be affected

naive nimbus Mar 13, 2019, 6:33 AM

#

so what youre saying is bwonsamdi is the way to go :p

floral pebble Mar 13, 2019, 11:13 AM

#

Bobsalami always best

regal agate Mar 13, 2019, 11:21 AM

#

there will be sims soon™ so just have patience

halcyon falcon Mar 13, 2019, 11:25 AM

#

Patience is a virtue 😃

maiden cargo Mar 13, 2019, 11:55 AM

#

Bwonsamdi best loa change my mind

raw knoll Mar 13, 2019, 12:06 PM

#

keep on topic in here please

glass apex Mar 13, 2019, 12:28 PM

#

I know i have to change the race to pretend i am zandlari... what do i need to enter for the loa thing so i can compare them ?

📎 Unbenannt.PNG

golden briar Mar 13, 2019, 12:35 PM

#

Wait for them to be implemented in simc 1st

glass apex Mar 13, 2019, 12:36 PM

#

@golden briar

📎 Unbenannt.PNG

fervent quiver Mar 13, 2019, 1:24 PM

#

📎 unknown.png

glass apex Mar 13, 2019, 1:36 PM

#

Dosnt work

halcyon falcon Mar 13, 2019, 1:37 PM

#

did you clone the github and build that one? but this still isnt the right place

regal agate Mar 13, 2019, 1:38 PM

#

git is the right one, keep in mind that raidbot's was build before the simc commit, so it needs to rebuild before you are able to sim it

#

the raidbots discord has a channel to show when they update their builds.
last update was 6:58 AM; the simc commit for the races was 9:28 AM.

📎 unknown.png

#

as i mentioned in #wow-general they will likely rebuild it later. Iirc they are in a diffrent timezone(so might be asleep atm).

mossy hearth Mar 13, 2019, 3:37 PM

#

dunno if gonna be hotfixed but

#

https://i.imgur.com/R4z43sk.gifv

Imgur

#

out of combat, hits nothing

#

gives me cp

#

hf with ur openers, brothers

boreal patrol Mar 13, 2019, 3:42 PM

#

lulwat

#

any special setup for that?

raw knoll Mar 13, 2019, 3:48 PM

#

Shuriken was doing it as well last night

proven sparrow Mar 13, 2019, 3:49 PM

#

You just always get 1 cp when foking/storming now

#

But it resets down to 2 when you engage in boss combat, so its only really 2 extra cp at the start of combat

modest salmon Mar 13, 2019, 3:51 PM

#

it is a bug or notß

#

?

muted raven Mar 13, 2019, 4:11 PM

#

No one knows

plucky mural Mar 13, 2019, 4:11 PM

#

odd that it drops to 2cp for a boss. should stack to 5 or clear or be documented.

muted raven Mar 13, 2019, 4:12 PM

#

CP has reset to 2 for awhile, just not an occurrence we ever find ourselves in. Subterfuge allows you to stay stealthed while hitting fok too. As long as you don’t hit a target

#

Cp reset is goofy though, like why 2?

regal agate Mar 13, 2019, 4:48 PM

#

I quick tested it, it seems to only work on Assassination and it does not require a dungeon/raid to work.
(This means it does not work on Shuriken Storm and does not requires a Sin specific azerite trait)
here is a log:

📎 WoWCombatLog.txt

merry pike Mar 13, 2019, 6:16 PM

#

It's a bug with subterfuge, doesnt work if you are talented into MA. with subterfuge you are able to stay in stealth and spam fok as long as it doesnt hit an enemy, the cp generation works with both talents though

regal agate Mar 13, 2019, 7:03 PM

#

those are the copy statements for the zandalari trolls/kultiran
Raidbots nightly and weekly should have the races now.

race="zandalari_troll"
zandalari_loa="akunda"

copy="Zandalari Troll (Bwonsamdi)"
race="zandalari_troll"
zandalari_loa="bwonsamdi"

copy="Zandalari Troll (Gonk)"
race="zandalari_troll"
zandalari_loa="gonk"

copy="Zandalari Troll (Kimbul)"
race="zandalari_troll"
zandalari_loa="kimbul"

copy="Zandalari Troll (Kragwa)"
race="zandalari_troll"
zandalari_loa="kragwa"

copy="Zandalari Troll (Pa'ku)"
race="zandalari_troll"
zandalari_loa="paku"

copy="Kul Tiran"
race="kul_tiran"```

#

i assume paku/kimbul/bwonsamdi are the relevant ones, you dont need to copy the rest

knotty oriole Mar 13, 2019, 7:11 PM

#

Note, there are some reports that Kimbul may be undervalued for Melee atm. It’s being investigated.

split lintel Mar 13, 2019, 10:28 PM

#

@merry pike It's working for MA for me

proper salmon Mar 13, 2019, 10:33 PM

#

Correct it works for both.

#

Probably Nightstalker as well.

merry pike Mar 13, 2019, 10:39 PM

#

The cp generation on fan worked for sub and ma. I tried the staying in stealth fok and that wasnt working with MA

#

Only with sub

split lintel Mar 13, 2019, 10:45 PM

#

ahh

sinful venture Mar 13, 2019, 11:23 PM

#

re: the cp building

#

last night i was able to reliably pull raid bosses starting with 2 CPs regardless of how much I built

#

it has to be a bug, it doesnt break stealth either

#

last night raidbots was breaking on me presumably because the line race=zandalari_troll

#

has that been fixed?

muted raven Mar 13, 2019, 11:34 PM

#

CP has reset to 2 for a long time, no one ever went into a fight with CP though. FoK giving a CP without a target may be a bug but the tooltip does say it awards CP so who knows.

#

Using it without breaking stealth is definitely a bug

sinful venture Mar 14, 2019, 12:06 AM

#

on pull i have 2 cps

#

in combat

#

oh are you saying that no one ever has cps going into a raid fight?

#

generally speaking

muted raven Mar 14, 2019, 12:09 AM

#

Im just saying the reset to 2 CP isnt a new thing unless Im just crazy and mis remembering.

#

It just wasnt relevant because we couldnt build it reliably before a fight

regal agate Mar 14, 2019, 8:23 AM

#

@sinful venture you probably simmed it with weekly before the weekly was rebuild (should have set it to nightly) weekly was rebuild later so now both work

golden briar Mar 14, 2019, 8:29 AM

#

U used to start combat with cps when mfd/fw sub was a thing

#

Btw, can we have some of the simc-savy people try a new opener with ma assa? Start with 2cp and go g>r>m>tb>vanish>env>mut to 4+ >env

#

See if it's better than building to a 4+ rupture

regal agate Mar 14, 2019, 9:20 AM

#

if the question is if it makes a diffrence to use rupture 2nd or 3rd gcd, no there is no diffrence in output.

ivory coral Mar 14, 2019, 9:24 AM

#

So if i want to sim what is better i need to do 3 different sims with the loa buffs?

sudden hamlet Mar 14, 2019, 9:24 AM

#

paku is better

ivory coral Mar 14, 2019, 9:25 AM

#

on every specc?

regal agate Mar 14, 2019, 9:25 AM

#

for the opener, if you dont do stupid stuff you can vary ability use there (like your custom opener)
however one thing straight up you def. lose dps if you shift vendetta out of the opener.

ivory coral Mar 14, 2019, 9:25 AM

#

i play outlaw

sudden hamlet Mar 14, 2019, 9:25 AM

#

https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/races/1t-t23-outlaw

Hero Damage

Class theorycrafting community, latest simulation results and resources -based on SimulationCraft- for World of Warcraft.

#

looks like its better on outlaw too

ivory coral Mar 14, 2019, 9:25 AM

#

Oh nice, ty.

regal agate Mar 14, 2019, 9:25 AM

#

@ivory coral check the channel topic, this is not #outlaw

#

just as a reminded:

If you think you are onto good suggestions to improve simulations, at least show screenshots of issues (preferably not cropped too much, e.g. show ALL columns in the sample sequence) + your ideas or, even better, back it up with links to logs and simulation reports. You can wrap links in < > to disable Discord previews, if you want.
The best way to help is if you are able to run things like an APL change comparison yourself and link your results for further analysis.
Please do not use this channel for simple questions like "does the sim do X" unless you have a valid technical concern. Questions to help you with setting up simulations for research are fine provided they do not get too extensive or repetitive. If in doubt, ask in a spec channel or send me a DM(koji/mystler/fuu).

#

@golden briar you can start a sim with more cp, however for your custom opener might need to adjust it(the apl).

 initial_combo_points=2```
souce: <https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/Rogues#combo-points>

I got no win by changing apl, in worst case even a minimal loss.

golden briar Mar 14, 2019, 9:39 AM

#

Aight tnx

sinful venture Mar 14, 2019, 12:16 PM

#

Are the values in herodamage for the new racials finalized? The grey bars make me believe otherwise

#

Can't find anythijg on their Github re:new races

boreal patrol Mar 14, 2019, 12:29 PM

#

Oh, right, they are grey because I forgot to mark them by their faction's colors 😄

#

Will make a fix for an upcoming HD sim.

cyan marsh Mar 14, 2019, 1:45 PM

#

Shame its so low down but at least it doesnt really matter

boreal patrol Mar 14, 2019, 2:39 PM

#

Alright, so, getting back to the Garrote usage topic we had the other day. I've sunken way too many hours over the last couple of days into APL research but finally ended up with changes that improve Garrote usage with Subterfuge and Shrouded Suffocation on pretty much any amount of targets. I'll post a brief summary in #tc-updates.

Here is the increase matrix I simmed when verifying my changes. I was using a 0.1% target error and still consider that one red colored field at the lower TE end negligible. The changes are pushed to SimC and will arrive on raidbots with the next nightly. https://i.imgur.com/eDssXCk.png

Imgur

#

Coming back to the particular point you raised on 2T now: Yes, it is an increase to maximize pandemic with Garrote and SS by alternating G1,G2,G1, then wait for drop on 2 and G2,G1,G2. However, this is not an increase anymore if you have Echoing Blades and turns into a noticable loss, prolly because those extra FoK globals when not having to use more Garrotes are neat. Anyway, with EB on 2T just applying and refreshing during pandemic is better.

#

(via @brisk wadi and @muted raven )

muted raven Mar 14, 2019, 2:47 PM

#

So you’re saying if you have eb traits then pandemic garrotes is not worth it on 2T even with SS?

boreal patrol Mar 14, 2019, 2:47 PM

#

yes

muted raven Mar 14, 2019, 2:48 PM

#

The list there shows it as an increase but that’s because of target error ?

boreal patrol Mar 14, 2019, 2:48 PM

#

that increase is for all of my APL changes in total including that EB exception, not just the max pandemic thing

muted raven Mar 14, 2019, 2:49 PM

#

Ah ok gotcha

#

Ty for the hard work!

brisk wadi Mar 14, 2019, 3:05 PM

#

👏

plucky mural Mar 14, 2019, 3:46 PM

#

Does the dungeon slice start with a ST boss?

cause this garrote with Fluffy pillow then Boss1

📎 unknown.png

#

the vanish is proper.

📎 unknown.png

#

and is this what you were working with @boreal patrol ? I have 1ss. 2eb. and this is a vanish fokfok.

📎 unknown.png

regal agate Mar 14, 2019, 3:50 PM

#

dungeon slice:

📎 unknown.png

plucky mural Mar 14, 2019, 3:51 PM

#

So technically we shouldnt be hitting the Main fluffy pillow in first gcd with garrote. but boss.

boreal patrol Mar 14, 2019, 3:52 PM

#

Yes, that is a general issue with DS and Simc atm. It does not know about the invulnerable dummy boss precombat.

#

However that one global does not matter much.

regal agate Mar 14, 2019, 3:54 PM

#

@plucky mural the changes are not live on raidbots yet, you would need to copy/paste apl from the apl wiki or build simc from source to have the improvements

plucky mural Mar 14, 2019, 3:55 PM

#

I can wait. and prob true. 1 extra garrote isnt going to change things a lot.

boreal patrol Mar 14, 2019, 3:56 PM

#

or actually, not even a global lost, it kicks back in at 0.X

#

so just ignore the first line at 0

knotty oriole Mar 14, 2019, 3:56 PM

#

I wish I had the extra 5 CP as Outlaw so I could RtB prepull over and over again. 😦

regal agate Mar 14, 2019, 3:56 PM

#

its only 2 cp (resets to 2 on combat start iirc)

boreal patrol Mar 14, 2019, 3:57 PM

#

yeah, but precombat

knotty oriole Mar 14, 2019, 3:57 PM

#

Well sure but if it worked for Outlaw you could just cast 5 CP RtBs before the pull until you got something good 😄

#

2 CPs at the start of the fight really makes no difference for Assassination at the end of the day. Probably worth doing because why not, but really super minimal.

boreal patrol Mar 14, 2019, 4:00 PM

#

for outlaw it could actually change the day.
"hang on don't pull yet..." spams "FoK-bug" to get 5CP over and over and RtB until 5buff "okay, now pull"

knotty oriole Mar 14, 2019, 4:00 PM

#

Rolls 5 buff

#

/pull 2

#

😄

#

I wonder if anyone tested if we get to use all 5 CP if we are the first global on the boss. I assume so?

marsh ginkgo Mar 14, 2019, 5:04 PM

#

If you opened w/ a finisher I’d assume yeah

muted raven Mar 14, 2019, 5:30 PM

#

I did yeah. Seemed to work

#

But we have people who pull early sometimes so I would occasionally hit a 2 cp opener. Eventually just quit trying

boreal patrol Mar 16, 2019, 11:35 PM

#

Cancel what i said about EB on 2T, it IS a gain to maximize garrote with SS there as well, it just turned out a loss at first because I missed a fallthrough in the APL when testing.

For those who read the APL, I also refactored some things there for better readability and added some minor improvements for DungeonSlice timing. Here is the updated matrix for my changes this week. https://i.imgur.com/EfOXRRP.png

Imgur

pseudo jolt Mar 19, 2019, 6:02 PM

#

Is there a conclusion regarding priority damage via TTK traits compared to other traits or even vs outlaw?

knotty oriole Mar 19, 2019, 6:59 PM

#

I have to redo all of my numbers due to Mystler’s APL changes above

#

Which I haven’t had time to do yet unfortunately.

knotty oriole Mar 19, 2019, 11:05 PM

#

Although I will say my posts previously are fairly clear about this if not fully optimized. Envenom priority usage can probably be beneficial but TtK itself is likely very medium even if doing that.

#

With Mystler’s recent SS optimizations, I think SS even looks more attractive for multi target scenarios.

plucky mural Mar 20, 2019, 12:46 AM

#

it looks good. this is a 10t open. with vanish.

📎 unknown.png

#

pb instead of ct. looks just fine.

#

👌

golden briar Mar 20, 2019, 8:14 AM

#

Hmm it used a 7th garrote there

#

Just a minor thing worth looking into

dire fossil Apr 3, 2019, 11:19 PM

#

Hey, I think I found an error in the outlaw AOE APL and was pointed here. In the APL it ignores opportunity procs with high wits stacks on AOE - I think this is correct most of the time, however it will result in a DPS loss if you do so while energy starved due to dropping globals. In practice I ignore the proc if I have AR, grand melee, lust, or generally high energy (unsure what's exactly correct). I tried adding a simple "| energy < 50" to the line of code in the APL dictating sinister vs opportunity proc and got results ~1.4% better on my TR character (10 target, 3 minutes, no lust). Obviously this is just one character and one setting set for sims but I think it is indicative of the truth.

My sims: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/d8R4tBuLmB6hhmrtHJs32h (edited APL), https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/624MuaKAQJ1Ug1VsQCjgFQ (basic APL)
APL with my change: https://pastebin.com/J5xfDx2M

Would like to note that I don't think my change is the final form here (for instance, if you have < 50 energy but lust/AR was just used you can probably still SS safely). Hopefully the person in charge of that can/will find it 😃

Raidbots

Quick Sim - Yodadwarf - 116,060 DPS - Raidbots

Raidbots

Quick Sim - Yodadwarf - 114,402 DPS - Raidbots

Pastebin

actions.precombat=flask actions.precombat+=/augmentation actions...

knotty oriole Apr 3, 2019, 11:32 PM

#

I can look into it. I remember trying energy thresholds when I first implemented it and did not see a gain, but perhaps something has changed

#

Perhaps it could be certain trait combinations that bring it up

#

@dire fossil Did you happen to check if just using <45 (SS cost) was sufficient?

dire fossil Apr 3, 2019, 11:34 PM

#

didn't check

knotty oriole Apr 3, 2019, 11:36 PM

#

Ok. Well I can look at it tonight after raid

dire fossil Apr 3, 2019, 11:37 PM

#

👍

knotty oriole Apr 3, 2019, 11:37 PM

#

Thanks for the report and testing, should make it pretty easy to isolate

boreal patrol Apr 13, 2019, 12:56 PM

#

@dire fossil I checked it out and 45 energy seems to be a great threshold. Just pushed the change to the default APL. Thank you!

dire fossil Apr 13, 2019, 2:56 PM

#

awesome 😃

idle bolt Apr 15, 2019, 4:33 PM

#

Hey guys, ik lurker's insidious gift was just properly implemented last night but its being used on pull in the apl instead of with vendetta which means a 2nd toxic blade window paired with the buff is lost (:

regal agate Apr 15, 2019, 5:01 PM

#

yes, seems logical to use it with vendetta

#

sim confirms it, report:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9wVBoL6B178o9ugimEyTyq/simc

📎 unknown.png

proven sparrow Apr 15, 2019, 5:04 PM

#

When implementing that trinket on herodamage, would it be a good idea to include it with differing length of the buff? Perhaps a 20s one as well as the 30s one. Since the damage ramps up significantly during the last seconds

regal agate Apr 15, 2019, 5:04 PM

#

iirc there is/will be a parameter for that

wispy badger Apr 15, 2019, 5:05 PM

#

I cant wait for the new option in raidbots, "how much do you get healed"

#

to maximize the trinket uptime

proven sparrow Apr 15, 2019, 5:05 PM

#

On raidbots yeah i assume so, but i was more specifically asking for the herodamage rankings.

#

Or is it too cluttered then?

regal agate Apr 15, 2019, 5:06 PM

#

in simc, we have quite a lot of trinket specific options, they are mentioned in the wiki (link in the pins)

wispy badger Apr 15, 2019, 5:06 PM

#

just do 3 diff bars

boreal patrol Apr 15, 2019, 5:06 PM

#

yeah, i'll add it to HD in variations 10,20,30s or so

wispy badger Apr 15, 2019, 5:06 PM

#

"lurker's gift 0 healer", "lurker's gift trash healer" "lurker's gift good healer"

boreal patrol Apr 17, 2019, 10:30 AM

#

I case you haven't seen it yet, it's on HeroDamage at those three durations now.

neon kiln May 20, 2019, 2:08 AM

#

Question:

does garrote + poison give x energy bonus regen
IN ADDITION to
if you also have rupture + poision on give y energy bonus regen
meaning if you have both gar + rup + pooision you get = x + y bonus regen to energy?
Or is it the same bonus energy regen for ETIHER gar OR rup by it self?

torn dome May 20, 2019, 3:58 AM

#

Both give separate energy ticks

#

So the more bleeds in total, the more energy

worldly anvil May 27, 2019, 2:40 AM

#

if i would like some guidance on my logs like for example what to improve etc should i post here or in the spec channel?

gleaming glade May 27, 2019, 2:46 AM

#

In the spec channels is the appropriate place

worldly anvil May 27, 2019, 2:46 AM

#

ty

vagrant quail Jun 10, 2019, 6:38 AM

#

anyone have tests for the 8.2 enchat ? are they better than the ones we have now ?

native moat Jun 14, 2019, 5:00 PM

#

talked about it in the assasination channel but didnt get a last reply so I'll try in here. When looking at a pure 3 single target scenario the general conscensus seems to be to FoK at all times outside Vendetta, but the APL on raidbots basicly only uses it to reaply poisons on off target. Any deeper input on this subject? Any way to get the apl to prioritize FoK/Muti more to better see the differences on this very specific situation? Running 3ss/3np so neither fok or muti is buffed

boreal patrol Jun 14, 2019, 5:08 PM

#

Yeah, you can get the APL with comments from our wiki (see pins). It should not be too hard to tweak the FoK thresholds if you want to check the differences for you. Koji has been checking that a while back and found Muti over FoK if poisons are up everywhere to yield better results (without EB of course). I also don't quite see how Vendetta should affect this numerically, right now.

native moat Jun 14, 2019, 5:14 PM

#

Well numerically buffing a mutilate on a single target is alot more than buffing a single fok target, together with the higher amount of envenoms you would get within vendetta window with mutilate versus fok.

boreal patrol Jun 14, 2019, 5:38 PM

#

Hm, True, there is a point where the absolute gain on Muti can beat that of FoK.

#

This seems to shift with powers, I can reproduce Fok outside Vendetta if I disable azerite. NP shifts that towards Muti.

native moat Jun 14, 2019, 5:39 PM

#

Hm okey

#

My limited understanding of the apl and coding is hampering me severely here 😛

#

Is there anyway to thru the apl shifting general target on a timer? Cuz what seriously lowers the mutilate focus is dot uptime considering it only mutilates off target when poison is gone and not beforehand to refresh?

boreal patrol Jun 14, 2019, 5:52 PM

#

instead of !dot.deadly_poison_dot.ticking you can do dot.deadly_poison_dot.remains<X

native moat Jun 14, 2019, 5:54 PM

#

how will it then prioritize with multiple timers below threshold?

boreal patrol Jun 14, 2019, 5:56 PM

#

first available, but you can use min/max functions: min:dot.deadly_poison_dot.remains<X

warm roost Jun 14, 2019, 6:51 PM

#

Well in a real world situation my instinct would be to fok if poison were to drop off of any target as opposed to when multiple are low but there’s definitely some conditional relative to energy and cp in that decision tree right

boreal patrol Jun 14, 2019, 6:56 PM

#

any target is what it already does

knotty oriole Jun 14, 2019, 11:48 PM

#

@native moat It should be easy for someone to try this out if we don't have time to get to it, but last I looked FoK on 3T "all the time" was not really the right thing to do for a few reasons

#

FoK is pretty weak damage in general in BfA after removal of the PK trait, Mutilate is relatively much stronger compared to Legion

#

I'm going to assume in this scenario the player is also not using DD traits because that's a pretty clear loss in that scenario

#

With the standard 3x DD/TtK/NP/BI setup that the default profile uses, using this approach is a rather significant (7.5%) DPS loss

#

EB setups in the APL already use FoK on 2+ targets, so that is a known case where it would be benefical

#

It may be possible that using FoK at 3+ targets outside of Vendetta could be a minimal gain for SS-only setups. But the best case I could find was only like 0.7% gain

glass apex Jun 25, 2019, 1:47 AM

#

Any Eta on implementations/sims ?

raw knoll Jun 25, 2019, 2:47 AM

#

Soon™ / When They're Ready™

regal agate Jun 25, 2019, 7:17 AM

#

its likely that sims will wait for spell data from the patch, so there are likely no sims before the patch is live on na.
you can use ptr=1 to sim essences if you cant wait.

#

repost from the simc discord on the essence formatting:


<formated_input>
 - token/token/token

token options:
 - essence_id:rank 
 - essence_id:rank:type 
 - spell_id

essence_id options:
 - AzeriteEssence.db2
 - tokenized form of the essence name

rank: 1..N
type: 0 (Minor) OR 1 (Major)
spell_id: Passive milestone spell id

Only 2 or 3 element tokens for major/minor powers allowed. If 2 element tokens are used, the
first element is the major essence, and the two subsequent tokens are the minor essences. In 3
element tokens, ordering does not matter. Placement of passive milestone spells is irrelevant.```
Some essence_ids:
```4    Worldvein
5    Focusing Iris
6    Purification Protocol
12   Crucible of Flames (Concentrated Flames)
14   Condensed Life-Force / Guardian of Azeroth
15   Ripple in Space
22   Vision of Perfection
23   Blood of the Enemy
27   Lucid Dreams
28   Unbound Force
32   Conflict and Strife```
Example for blood rank 3:
```azerite_essences=23:3:1```

hard nymph Jun 25, 2019, 9:26 AM

#

when is the patch coming btw?

regal agate Jun 25, 2019, 9:30 AM

#

not 8.2 related but probably still interessting, @plain coral asked me to look into 3x NV combination.
TL;dr of the research:

Playing for NV buff is a win
Doing it outside of Symbols(or shortly before symbols) is no noticeable gain

Talents behave like this: SF+ES > NS+ES >NS+DARK >= SF+DARK

sim:https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/zLajJfx7kWLfmhnLko6jS

📎 unknown.png

boreal patrol Jun 25, 2019, 9:39 AM

#

Also a note about 8.2 TC: As you may have noticed SimC got started rather late this time because our core gurus were pretty busy. Essences just got their basic support when I left for a vacation last week (which I know was unfortunately timed with the patch around the corner). Thankfully, Koji made sure to do all rogue specific essence implementations while I was away so we should have basic stuff ready for launch. I am now back and ready to catch up and work on stuff. This includes new essence data for HeroDamage and APL research. Keep in mind that this can all take some time and results are subject to change over the course of the next days or weeks due to research updates as well as potential hotfixes.

I think raidbots will switch over to 8.2 later today, so you can do basic sims as well. If you want to help, feel free to post helpful research data and sim reports here and hopefully we will have rogues in a good spot by the time the new raid opens.

#

For an overview on the general state of simc and raidbots, please see https://medium.com/raidbots/raidbots-patch-8-2-status-124b8dca2c2b

Medium

Raidbots Patch 8.2 Status - Raidbots - Medium

As usual with any big patch, expect some turbulence. Not everything has been implemented in SimC, there will be bugs, and there will be…

proven sparrow Jun 26, 2019, 8:02 PM

#

I checked the github and i saw that the APL still had very basic conditions for using the essences (perhaps your internal APL has some edits i dont know about, but anyway), ive found a couple of gains, most are very small (holding the essences until MA is over for most of them) the big one is that using blood of the enemy together with vendetta seems to be a very large gain compared to using it on cooldown (even though it means delaying the essence by 30s every time)

#

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iTvYcTJpawQwYQX1qFBv5v With basic usage, using most of them during MA
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/odbrrs4v2Hf4JdoZcfJKY1 Using them after MA in the opener
Both of these also include the different blood usages

knotty oriole Jun 26, 2019, 8:07 PM

#

Hey Eleem, yes this is all pretty preliminary right now since we haven’t had a lot of time to optimize.

#

Thanks for the feedback, one of us will look into it!

proven sparrow Jun 26, 2019, 8:07 PM

#

Ye i assumed so.

#

Another thing i've noticed is that Focused azerite beam in simc seems to not work like the tooltip does ingame

knotty oriole Jun 26, 2019, 8:08 PM

#

That isn’t one I worked on so not sure if that is a tooltip issue or a SimC issue.

#

Some of the traits are a little wonky

proven sparrow Jun 26, 2019, 8:09 PM

#

Obv its not available yet so i cant test, but tooltip says it should take 1.6s of cast time and then 2.4s of channeling to do 97k (with my character)

#

Whereas in simc its a 3s channel (no prior cast time) that does 140k

#

yeah im not really firing any shots, perhaps this is how it works and the tooltip is just completely off (not too unlikely tbh)

knotty oriole Jun 26, 2019, 8:10 PM

#

Yeah something to look into when it’s available for sure

regal agate Jun 27, 2019, 7:49 AM

#

Herodamage essence sims are there, so have a look 😃

plain coral Jun 27, 2019, 9:14 AM

#

About BotE use, I did a few research and this particular condition gave me pretty good results :
debuff.toxic_blade.up|debuff.vendetta.remains<=10

Adding more condition tight to vanish usage or dots ticking was no win for me, but I did add a condition for Vanish into TB windows.
Final condition is actions.cds+=/blood_of_the_enemy,if=!stealthed.rogue&(debuff.vendetta.up&(debuff.toxic_blade.up|debuff.vendetta.remains<=10))|(target.time_to_die<=30&cooldown.vendetta.remains>30&debuff.toxic_blade.up)|target.time_to_die<=10

The simulation : https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uqkkteepDNr5NnXnJwRt1a

Raidbots

Advanced Sim - 33,789 DPS - Raidbots

boreal patrol Jun 27, 2019, 12:32 PM

#

Thank you for looking into it. I have pushed some improvements based on your suggestions! 👍

maiden cargo Jun 30, 2019, 9:45 PM

#

What's the deal with the new Ins trinket? Bloodmallet says it sims WAY higher than 415 Lurker. Have you guys tested it? I'd love to see herodamage sim, I don't trust bloodmallet.

boreal patrol Jun 30, 2019, 9:49 PM

#

so, from what i've heard it is simming correctly and that strong but not working correctly in-game in some way that it its value drops rapidly as soon as more than one person wear it. i'm not familiar with the details of that issue, right now though

#

about trinkets on Hero Damage in general. I haven't had the time to go through all the new trinkets yet but I'll add them very soon

#

i assume the issue with the inscription trinket is that the dot and explosion are shared and players override each other

twin ferry Jun 30, 2019, 10:35 PM

#

Why dont you trust bloodmallet?

proper salmon Jul 1, 2019, 12:49 AM

#

So the trinket DoT could be similar to how Ignite used to be shared?

remote granite Jul 1, 2019, 4:04 AM

#

I mean that could increase its value for whoever applied it first, because it'll be proccing way more often

errant tinsel Jul 1, 2019, 9:22 AM

#

noone in my raid had any of the inscr. trinkets on but me

#

it was still doing around half of what my sims told me

glass apex Jul 1, 2019, 9:23 AM

#

according to logs or details! ?

errant tinsel Jul 1, 2019, 9:24 AM

#

logs

glass apex Jul 1, 2019, 9:24 AM

#

hmm ok. i just did some testing on training dummys and it seems like the sims are correct, maybe details is broken ?!

errant tinsel Jul 1, 2019, 9:25 AM

#

couldve just gotten unlucky or something aswell, only tried it for a few pulls since it was so garbage

glass apex Jul 1, 2019, 9:25 AM

#

on wich boss ?

errant tinsel Jul 1, 2019, 9:25 AM

#

uunat

cedar urchin Jul 1, 2019, 12:16 PM

#

can you link the logs?

west prism Jul 1, 2019, 1:20 PM

#

so inscription trinket is garbage for us?

tired latch Jul 1, 2019, 1:22 PM

#

@west prism Refer to the pins in any of the spec channels.

knotty oriole Jul 1, 2019, 2:52 PM

#

Keep in mind that any kind of target swapping pretty dramatically reduces the value of that trinket

#

Just due to the design of it

glass apex Jul 2, 2019, 3:14 AM

#

The Highborne Compendium of Sundering sim changed again. It now sims 200 DPS lower than 12 Hours ago...

regal agate Jul 2, 2019, 6:52 AM

#

I dont think there was a change for it, at least i cant find a commit.
link to commits: https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commits/bfa-dev

glass apex Jul 2, 2019, 8:03 AM

#

Yeah i looked at this too... dont know why but what i said is 100% true. Atleast for my Character.

#

I can link the sims if you want

glass apex Jul 2, 2019, 8:24 AM

#

That is the sim 24 hours ago now:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8LBX6S9BiEwWQN7rAdhwy4

And this the new one:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fz6EmohDJuJBj9wGfSRmop

olive grotto Jul 2, 2019, 8:34 AM

#

Same here

#

Trinket simming lower than my 400 dice

muted raven Jul 2, 2019, 8:43 AM

#

Seems true for me also. It out simmed my 405 socketed dice yesterday and no longer is today

#

5 min patchwerk

boreal patrol Jul 2, 2019, 10:08 AM

#

Yes, there was a change yesterday (iirc it was about the explosion applying the dot).

#

It sims a bit lower now but is still very strong for an item level 400 trinket. About the in-game bug with multiple users, I have heard that it was already reported and a fix is in the works. We will see.

rustic ibex Jul 2, 2019, 1:19 PM

#

I hope this is the right channel to ask this: On bloodmallet and herodamage, does the sim of major traits include the minor trait you get on top or is that excluded, meaning I'd have to add the value of the minor to the major trait to determine which would be the bis trait?

regal agate Jul 2, 2019, 1:21 PM

#

yes they do include minor

golden briar Jul 2, 2019, 4:58 PM

#

i'm just surprised worldvein (3 allies) major is so useless that it sims around the same as minor on herodamage (actually lower but that's within the margin of error)

#

or, idk, it just consistently sims lower for all 3 specs

boreal patrol Jul 2, 2019, 5:03 PM

#

the major has basically no benefit over the minor with 3 allies because you're already pretty much 100% on maximum stacks, afaik

boreal patrol Jul 2, 2019, 5:18 PM

#

currently the major is a slight loss over minor because of the APL (you basically waste a GCD for using it without needing to). ideally it should only be used with low stacks on the buff it provides but we cannot add that condition because it breaks sims without the power, at the moment. will update that accordingly once the core is updated for that

tough dirge Jul 2, 2019, 9:41 PM

#

is there an option in sims to add X ppl with minor Worldvein?

boreal patrol Jul 2, 2019, 9:42 PM

#

bfa.worldvein_allies

#

(not sure if raidbots whitelisted it for the APL box yet. if not, it should happen sometime soon)

willow knoll Jul 3, 2019, 3:11 AM

#

just a quick question, on herodamage, where it says major and minor for all the essences, does the major INCLUDE the minor, or is it JUST looking at the major effect?

round canyon Jul 3, 2019, 3:36 AM

#

the major includes the minor

#

just like in game

knotty oriole Jul 3, 2019, 5:12 AM

#

Yeah that's correct. Mystler and I discussed some options for breaking the effects apart to compare major vs. minor value a little more easily, but will depend on what they can do on the front-end side 😃

vagrant quail Jul 3, 2019, 8:00 AM

#

what we really need is combinations.

#

major + minor for now

#

later major + minor + minor

boreal patrol Jul 3, 2019, 9:50 AM

#

spoilers: already implemented that, views coming soon ™

#

albeit combinations will have limited talent permutation in order to not blow up the number of profiles to run, so top gearing yourself will ofc still be the best option

golden briar Jul 3, 2019, 12:42 PM

#

top gearing with 8 sockets and 5 trinkets and 7 different essences for different slots zzzzz

raw knoll Jul 3, 2019, 1:12 PM

#

please keep this channel on topic @golden briar

plain coral Jul 3, 2019, 8:52 PM

#

how do I use bfa.worldvein_allies in simulaion ,

#

I just add this line, or do I need to use it a a value

boreal patrol Jul 3, 2019, 9:01 PM

#

You specify the number of allies with the essence, e.g. bfa.worldvein_allies=3

west prism Jul 3, 2019, 11:28 PM

#

How is cyclotronic blast not simming higher?

#

it does quite a bit of dmg, you can attack while using it and it doesnt share cds with other 2 minute trinkets

wide hawk Jul 4, 2019, 12:30 AM

#

im sorry if this is an already known thing but im pretty sure raidbots isnt simming the on use portion of this trinket correctly https://gyazo.com/fbea9366e8158d9509f72fc35e090377

Gyazo

west prism Jul 4, 2019, 12:32 AM

#

It's definitely not. That shit does quite a bit of dmg

plucky mural Jul 4, 2019, 1:35 AM

#

can you /vanish /use to trigger it with sin MA crit?

proven sparrow Jul 4, 2019, 2:03 AM

#

MA only affects rogue spells/assa traits/talents, not trinkets, generic traits or essences

west prism Jul 4, 2019, 2:08 AM

#

The thing cant crit either

#

Its still 170k ish dmg per use

#

Been using it for pvp, great fun

boreal patrol Jul 4, 2019, 9:14 AM

#

The blast was just implemented a about day ago. It's possible charts or raidbots sims don't have it yet.

#

(and it is still actively being worked on, there was a new commit just now)

west prism Jul 4, 2019, 10:31 AM

#

Thanks for the heads up

hollow trellis Jul 4, 2019, 1:07 PM

#

ok, nvm

west prism Jul 4, 2019, 4:10 PM

#

@boreal patrol the ideal way to use BotE has been said to use between vendetta and vanish, but in the sims its using bote after the first envenom after using TB

tired latch Jul 4, 2019, 8:00 PM

#

@olive grotto You can sim yourself to find that answer out, thats not the nature of this channel.

olive grotto Jul 4, 2019, 8:01 PM

#

aye wrong channel sorry --'

muted osprey Jul 4, 2019, 10:25 PM

#

@boreal patrol When are you bumping the raid gear to the new stuff?

boreal patrol Jul 4, 2019, 10:29 PM

#

I made initial T24 profiles for Rogues already, but aside from priests no other class has them yet, afaik. It'll probably take a few more days for the others to catch up and then we'll enable T24 sims for HD.

muted osprey Jul 4, 2019, 10:29 PM

#

Pog

#

Sounds awesome happy

boreal patrol Jul 5, 2019, 8:16 PM

#

Re: Cyclotronic Blast, I just saw that this counts technically as a usable gem instead of a usable item, which was not considered for APL generation for rogues. I fixed it and with upcoming charts and raidbots nightlies the Blast should finally actually sim.

#

Eternal Palace special effects and trinkets are still WIP with some not yet implemented, so if you want to look at those already, be careful for now.

vagrant quail Jul 7, 2019, 12:04 AM

#

mystler can you put a sim for every benthic gear 425+ socket X heroic (430ilv) and mythic(445ivl)?

#

really curious too see what slots are better than actual raid drops

muted osprey Jul 7, 2019, 12:07 AM

#

Just do droptimizer sims yourself?

vagrant quail Jul 7, 2019, 12:11 AM

#

droptimizer dont have socket

#

they could add it ofc

muted osprey Jul 7, 2019, 12:11 AM

#

Gear compare then

vagrant quail Jul 7, 2019, 12:11 AM

#

im doing that but i trust him more than my random sims

#

boots and gloves outdps mythic gear
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oLHvNqgY2ePzyuazXnGbmu
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aYjqNx9rciFuL1MeojJjt4

Raidbots

Gear Compare - Scarfdeath - 32,898 DPS - Raidbots

Raidbots

Gear Compare - Scarfdeath - 33,050 DPS - Raidbots

#

bracers sims
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sQ8TDjDQanFBHrX6JaNDoh

Raidbots

Gear Compare - Scarfdeath - 32,655 DPS - Raidbots

#

i dont know if i didi it 100% right but

#

every benthic slot outdps mythci raid drops

knotty oriole Jul 7, 2019, 12:22 AM

#

Yeah I think we are awaiting some confirmation on if the Benthic effects are balanced at all in week 1 or week 2 hotfixes before we use in the default profiles. But some of the effects are very strong.

#

Boots and Bracers at a minimum seem hard to beat

vagrant quail Jul 7, 2019, 12:23 AM

#

yes

#

not sure if i did it right but look WAY TOOO GOOD

regal agate Jul 7, 2019, 7:55 AM

#

those are even without socket often about equal to mythic itemlvl equivalents, socket just makes them even stronger.

vagrant quail Jul 7, 2019, 9:42 PM

#

belts sims forgot about them : https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/e4K4sGsZARqbSjE91QWtF3

Raidbots

Gear Compare - Scarfdeath - 32,450 DPS - Raidbots

cinder hedge Jul 8, 2019, 12:27 AM

#

something is fishy with yellowcards

#

on raidbots my yellow card shows as this

#

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/114793754170228737/597584127046189077/unknown.png

#

when in the actual game it's this

#

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/114793754170228737/597584200345845780/unknown.png

#

it's almost double the secondaries raidbots actually has it show as

quartz geyser Jul 8, 2019, 12:32 AM

#

Does the same thing with the red punchard

#

Except it just shows 8k

cinder hedge Jul 8, 2019, 12:33 AM

#

is it just a tooltip bug or is it actually using those values?

knotty oriole Jul 8, 2019, 12:48 AM

#

The tooltip is just from wowhead

#

It may not have the right bonus ID, I wouldn't worry about it

#

Shouldn't have an impact on the sim

cinder hedge Jul 8, 2019, 12:49 AM

#

sounds good, thanks

glass apex Jul 8, 2019, 9:55 AM

#

Are there any plans on changing the apl for BotE Rang 3 in the Sims ? The Sim is using it still way after Vendetta and i am pretty sure its a dps loss

boreal patrol Jul 8, 2019, 10:11 AM

#

i've seen screenshots that (iirc) even ingame punchcard tooltip and trinket tooltip are slightly different, aside from that wowhead might display it a bit differently too, yeah

#

you can check the report for the actual value it used and if in doubt only punchcard level matters not that of the whole trinket

#

BotE for assa is, if possible, stacked with TB as that showed the best results in my sims so far.

brisk wadi Jul 8, 2019, 10:13 AM

#

Probably vendetta bote vanish tb in opener

#

With ma

glass apex Jul 8, 2019, 10:22 AM

#

Well the sim is not doing that

#

I am not on my pc right now but its using BotE way later.

#

Wait... did something change in the last day ? Seems like i am wrong ! The sim IS doing it now 🤔

#

In my last sim yesterday BotE was used like 20 sec. after Toxicblade Window.

#

But now its not