#tc-research

1 messages · Page 28 of 1

lunar trout
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@analog dove Yeah, gloves the clear winner for you there considering what you have. If you even had Prydaz it might be worth running some simulations - sometimes it's not too far behind while being a great defensive legendary too. Guess just get your farm on and hope something good comes for you soon 😃

analog dove
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I actually just used my 3rd Assa leggo drop to get a Prydaz (sped up time between leggos a bit and got lucky getting a multispec one), so I'll have to check it out. Seems best for Outlaw at least as far as stats go. Pushing into middle/end mythic ToS though, sure the Prydaz will get some use

maiden cargo
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Best for assassination, outlaw being the spec getting lowest increase from using Prydaz

analog dove
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interesting. At least according to my weights it shows better for outlaw with my haste normalized being at or above 1.0

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but I have very mast heavy gear even in outlaw

maiden cargo
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It will depend on your stats for sure

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Prydaz gives less DPS than any other legendary for outlaw

analog dove
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Luckily I have mantle and wrists for outlaw 😛

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but I don't play outlaw

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plays too fast for me tbh

maiden cargo
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😁

analog dove
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managing TB and reacting to resetting BtE cds just kills my brain

maiden cargo
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I wish I could play haste build Elaborate Planning assassination

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Spamming Envenom!

analog dove
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that use vigor ring?

maiden cargo
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No thats bad unfortunately

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Just very fun even if very low numbers

analog dove
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ah

lunar trout
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One thing I think is lost with theorycrafting now-a-days is simplification at the expense of DPS. We always push for the highest numbers, but if you could drop an entire ability from your rotation (let's say, Nightblade for Subtletly) and take a minor DPS loss, would you do it? Back in WOTLK, I took a 1% drop to remove Rupture and just spam Eviscerate and it worked out very well in practice.

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I guess 9 times of 10 it's not desirable, but I don't think we do enough consideration on things like that.

maiden cargo
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Thats actually still happening

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Sin players use Vigor even if lower DPS

lunar trout
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Yeah, that's true, I more meant in terms of modifying ability usage (in simulation, changing the APL with the highest number not necessarily the goal).

analog dove
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Yeah, I think the majority of players that bother simming probably don't consider their own ability. When you can achieve better results with something more convenient / less complex. Definitely player by player though. I also think of that with spec selection in some tier races, as sometimes you just need people able to lend more focus to mechanics over potentially complex rotations (I assume this is the cause of low rogue dps showcased in method's kj kill?)

maiden cargo
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Yes, that would be kind of complex I believe but it's very true

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Just like AMR puts character in real fight situation

analog dove
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Anyway thanks for the chat. Gotta try and get some sleep. /pce

lunar trout
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Likewise, although I'm getting food not sleep! 👋🏻

regal agate
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@lunar trout the majority of abilities are designed the way you cant scrap them from your rotation without losing big parts of your damage. one of the things that might come close would be not using vanish without mantle of the master assassin. this would come close to an 1.5-2% damage loss and may come to what you described earlier however due to the frequency you use it its likely not an issue or complicates the rotation.
Cutting a dot(like in your example) also means losing damage in down times, so while this may result in minor losses with 100% up time on boss fights you might lose out alot if you need to move away from the boss.
Rotations are not so designed that they are hard to reproduce in game this usually don't lead to a case where you want to make it easier.

full kindle
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@regal agate Hi dude i wanted to make some sims using memento, can you make a player die in sims ?

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😄

strong gorge
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I think the main thing is that rotations become so simple and so ingrained that after practicing a while it really doesn't matter if you do some super complex things or just repeating 1 2 3 4. Most situations will be so common for you that you will recognize and by instinct know what to do

full kindle
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That's true

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You'll do things without thinking and even without knowing you're doing them

willow pecan
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the X2 value is left of the X1 for some reason

cedar magnet
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hey guys

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raidbots and shadowcraft are giving me different results, which one is more accurate?

split sorrel
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@willow pecan in the todo list

willow pecan
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i wonder how that happened, did it get a negative value?

split sorrel
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no

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it's just not more used so there is no dps increase

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except mystler failed something in the profile

obsidian rover
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Raidbots saw you your Average dps or the dps you should make with the gear you wear?

cedar magnet
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the DPS you should make

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with food flasks pots and optimal rotation

jolly knot
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can anyone test the "bug" (maybe not) for sin rogues?
Unstealth -> switch to NS -> Stealth -> swith to Subterfurge -> cast Garrote from stealth.
doing this will give you 50% increased first garrote as if NS buff keeps living after talent switch
thats not subs 125% its on top of that
with 40k agi I get 236k per 2s, & 353k with bugbuffing

regal agate
jolly knot
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@regal agate thanks, upvoted your github issue

regal agate
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oh, you can just open an issue next time 😃

jolly knot
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well i submitted ingame bug report, but i dont think they read it

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and i didnt see any github related to wow

regal agate
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thanks for the report 👍

merry cloud
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because subtr makes you go into different stealth iirc

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I doubt they will do anything with it

jolly knot
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@merry cloud I think stealthing in NS gives you buff to damage for next attack, and changing the talent just doesnt remove it.

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Because if you go to stealth in Subterfurge, then swap the talents back and forth u wont get the damage buff

merry cloud
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check spell_id on stealth

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I think if you pick ns or sf it stays the same

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but if you pick subtr and restealth it's different stealth

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so you have to "restealth" for effect to take place

split sorrel
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yes subter is different stealth

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same for vanish

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comment it on the issue

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might help blizz devs if they aren't aware

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wil do else

regal agate
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ill edit the issue then (updated)

split sorrel
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ty

boreal patrol
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@willow pecan yes, we noticed something weird is going on with MA relics, it is shown that way in the graph because 2relics do not sim more than 1

maiden cargo
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Can you inform people about that?

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Loot distribution and usage is being done with those simulations results

full kindle
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That's funny tho

split sorrel
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As said earlier, it's likely an APL constraint bound to some sync. (but might be something else, I remember fixing the energy req for vendetta, could be a side effect)
Considering we are doing it on our free time, it might take some time until a fix

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Also, it's summer time and mythic prog, so either ppl are still busy with mythic prog or busy with RL vacations

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Blame Blizzard for hotfixes / bugs / bugfixes, not the people trying to help the community 😉

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And finally, your guild shouldn't rely on those graphs, it's just here to give an idea, there are too many parameters that can make it godlike or shitty.

maiden cargo
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I wasn't talking for myself, but for people relying on it. Of course you don't have to fix it and I wasn't blaming everyone, probably could make a pinned message about it in sin channel for those people just so they know

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Hope you have some nice progress/vacations, im saying it again my goal was not to blame anyone and you know how thankful I am towards anyone helping the community here

willow pecan
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Implying people in sin channel actually check resources instead of just asking what's best

wise notch
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SO guys

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i have an important question

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i need a new helm

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i have t4 set

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and i have a nighthold helm 875

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i dont know what the best helm is rn

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and i actually need help

mellow elbow
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@wise notch What ilvl is your t20 helm?

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Also nighthold helm is versa mast or t19?

wise notch
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nighthelm

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nighthold helm

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is crit mast

mellow elbow
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What ilvl is your t20 helm then?

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I guess it will still be better, even if its lfr

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885

wise notch
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I dont have the t20 helm

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because its trash

mellow elbow
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Other helms in tos are trash too

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So you get t20, other tos helm or fish m+ for a mastery+crit/versa

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Assuming you have mantle, you go legs, hands, chest and either back or head

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But it depends what your pieces are

wise notch
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normal helm is haste and vers

mellow elbow
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Yeah, it is

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But it's also higher ilvl, which means more agi and more secondary stats as well

wise notch
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the t20 parts of have

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are

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chest cloak legs and hands

mellow elbow
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Then you're fine

wise notch
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so getting the helm is ok?

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so i guess ill go for helm

full kindle
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@wise notch sim it

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on raidbot

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top gear

proper cairn
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no helm is very bad

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unless you get 930+

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read sin pls

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gave you 2 options

fresh lake
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If i want to test all talent combinations(for sub meaning dfa/mfd and weaponmaster/master of sub) for a new item, do I need to do all 8 possible simulations or is there a faster way?

maiden cargo
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Use copy= function

regal agate
fresh lake
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oh nice thanks

terse galleon
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does Engine of Eradication sims assume you pick up a set amount of orbs? how many?

regal agate
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it picks up all orbs in simc

terse galleon
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hmmm thought so, thanks for confirming

vagrant quail
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@manic pulsar found one bug on mrrobot. sometimes i try to search for a itme but it just dont find it.

manic pulsar
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@vagrant quail can you give me some specifics? Which item are you searching for?

vagrant quail
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in searchn for Brinewashed Leather Boots cant found it

manic pulsar
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There must be a filter that is excluding it

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in your options, did you set an item level filter?

vagrant quail
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yes sec will sned a ss

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only itme from dungeons i cnat select here

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maybe its onyl with me

manic pulsar
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ah, ok. That is a world quest item, and its base item level is max 860

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so it is being filtered out by your minimum item level filter

vagrant quail
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um but it drops from dungeon too no ? i got it on the weekly chest 930

manic pulsar
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possibly, I think we have it in our data as a world quest item

vagrant quail
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hum yea many WQ items are from dgs too

manic pulsar
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yeah, we have that one tied to the world quest filter

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so if you reduce the minimum item level filter, it will show up

vagrant quail
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yea did it here tks

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33k dps upgrade now

manic pulsar
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solid

tough hornet
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@manic pulsar do you know if AMR currently has the vanish bug in the profile?

manic pulsar
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we don't

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i still have to implement it

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was trying to avoid adding it if i could

tough hornet
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gotcha

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that may make a big difference in terms of the nightstalker value in talents as AMR currently recommends me shadow focus

manic pulsar
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yeah, i imagine it could make a bit of difference, although shadow focus is a pretty solid talent for sub

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I will probably break down and implement it, since it seems like blizzard is going to leave it in

vagrant quail
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after they nerfed shoulders look like they are happy with the bug makign it a total 6s bonus rsrs

tough hornet
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why not just fix bug and unnerf shoulders

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hmmm

vagrant quail
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blizzard....

manic pulsar
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that would be more logical

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so, it would be really easy for me to just make vanish last for two casts in the simulator - the hard part is making the auto attacks stop

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i could do a fast and lazy implementation that doesn't mess with the swing timer

tough hornet
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i think that implementation would be closer to live than what it is atm

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even though it is a bit off

manic pulsar
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yeah, a fraction of an auto wouldn't even show up in the results

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I'll try to put it in tonight before my raid

tough hornet
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🤔 but what if that auto procs nightblooming frond 🤔

manic pulsar
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heh, it's an rppm, so wouldn't matter a ton

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well, i guess it would get benefits from stealth

crimson thicket
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!trinkets

primal oracle
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!race

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!help

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!commands

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!

maiden cargo
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how do I add the use effect for vial of ceaseless toxins to simcraft?

primal ore
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any sims for bis leges after nerfs??

mellow elbow
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check the ravenholdt site

weak sparrow
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Does SimC think that I can stun my target when simming with Sephuz?

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Or otherwise CC it.

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"In default settings you fight against a boss in simc, so alppliing cc isn't an option - therefore the ring can't proc."

I found this in an old github comment, but I dunno if it's accurate since the thread in question is a year old.

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vOv

full kindle
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Does any of you know if the bug affecting boots for Sub has been implemented in Simcraft ?

maiden cargo
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Why do you ping shadowblades lol

feral crystal
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Because fuu kicks arse

full kindle
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Well isn't they supposed to know that kinda things ?

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removed it

regal agate
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@full kindle moderation != simc/TC, neverless you can change the energy emount you get from the legendary boots manualy

full kindle
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Thx, that's handy so i just shoud past moderation != simc/TC this at the end ?

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Hi btw ^^

regal agate
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not everyone who moderates works on simc or is a active Theoriecrafter

full kindle
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Yes that's why i removed it

maiden cargo
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Moderation !=simc/TC means moderators don't necessarily work on simC or theorycrafting

full kindle
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Ho okay I taught I was supposed to use it for sims lol

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Thx

calm jackal
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!sim

maiden cargo
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the feeling when crafted legendary + 895 mastery stat stick sim 20k less than wrists and cof 🤔

maiden cargo
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Harlyxn Github commit of Exsang feels wonky. He says in a comment that exsang should have garrot and rupture refreshed before use but sample sequence table shows something else. I am confused

📎 Untitled.png
barren nimbus
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How come that simulationcraft wants me to drop mastery to obtain crit? I have 36% crit, 14% haste, 58% mastery and 14% versa. I have 0 leggos and tier20 4- set piece. When I look at someone like Pyllerøx he has like 120% mastery?

maiden cargo
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You don't have mantle

vagrant quail
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@manic pulsar is it possible to split the pots used ?
in more options we could have a pre pot dropbox and mid fight potion WITH a extra option to select what % of the boss we want to use it.
that way we could set 2 different pots
Ex: Old War for pre pot and Prolonged Power used with 30% hp.

manic pulsar
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You can edit the rotation and put in custom conditions for potion use

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have to edit the pre-fight rotation and the main rotation

weak tartan
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Anyone have a good current sub rotation I can import?

vagrant quail
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you can edit but its harder to do, with those options we could do it easier on the site

weak tartan
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Anyone ? :0

sudden flame
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@weak tartan download aethys rotation on curse

weak tartan
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not what I mean but thanks 😛

sturdy grotto
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so ive been simming my rogue currently and I know mastery is generally king for DFA, but when im simming its telling me I need to start stacking crit vers after 85%~ mas. Is there a cut off for mastery where we start stacking crit vers?

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or maybe a minimum crit i need to be hitting?

tough hornet
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without mantle of the master assassin

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crit gets quite a value boost

sturdy grotto
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ok, i definitely dont have bis legos. Running prydaz and legs right now

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but its still showing my value for mastery at 13.9, where crit and vers are approximately ~14.6/14.7. Has anyone had issues with the simulations not being correct?

tough hornet
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without shoulders and these stats crit >> vers=mast

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i would trust the sim

sturdy grotto
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awesome. thanks everyone just wanted to know before i dropped a pretty penny on new crit vers shoes

pearl oxide
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!trinkets

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!trinket

full kindle
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@pearl oxide go in #bot-spam

cosmic glade
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how do you sim the dps difference btwn each race?

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or can you

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i think you can i just dont know how

regal agate
cosmic glade
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thanks

manic pulsar
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Just an FYI for folks. @willow pecan pointed me to this post: https://github.com/Ravenholdt-TC/Rogue/issues/52#issuecomment-318384007
I took a look and that exsang rotation was working really nice. I adapted it and made it work with all talents/items, AoE, etc. and made a couple tweaks to it, and merged it into our default assassination APL. You should see exsang sims getting about 6-8% higher results now on AMR.

GitHub
[APL] Exsanguinate Feedback · Issue #52 · Ravenholdt-TC/Rogue

Hello fellow TCs.
I am an avid exsang player, and I want to share my feedback and improvements on the current APL.
As we currently have two profiles for Assassination it would make sense to me that...

willow pecan
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awesome, thanks swol 😃

manic pulsar
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np - I was really happy at how simple it was. I ended up just making a sub-rotation for exsang for clarity

willow pecan
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will gearing strategy work adaptivly if i'll resim it (will it suggest crit/vers in your opinion)

manic pulsar
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if you make a custom strategy with exsange talents/legendary items, it will reflect it

willow pecan
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or should i sim it while i have exasng talented

manic pulsar
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we're going to re-make our adaptive default tonight hopefully

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I made a couple little tweaks to the toxic blade APL also - one to fix a rare bug, and one to make sure to hold potion until 30% with wrists.

willow pecan
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i wonder how will it compare to poison build

manic pulsar
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I could make a little post with a comparison after I re-make the adaptive strats tonight. Some limited testing shows it to be competitive, like within 2% or so

willow pecan
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That would make sense, as i've seen exsang performing worst on ST
but better on cleave
so i assume if you had a sim with 2 targets, it would perform better

tough hornet
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@manic pulsar did you happen to implement that vanish bug? my stat priorities and gear recommendations changed drastically today

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and i have the same equipped gear

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im currently equipping t20 4pc and t19 2pc and its telling me to unequip 4pc and change out my 2pc pieces in favor of haste gear shrug

manic pulsar
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I didn't implement the vanish bug yet

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I was actually trying to make use of that in my raid last night and I couldn't get it to work... I must be missing something

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It worked sometimes... but not all the time

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seemed to work better if I spammed the macro a bit

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nothing in our gearing strategies changed since last night that I'm aware of...

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I'm going to re-do the assassination one in the next day or two since I put in the exsanguinate stuff

tough hornet
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yeah the macro needs to be spammed

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and you have to be off gcd

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works about 90% of the time for me and if it doesnt usually im not off gcd

willow pecan
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@manic pulsar for sub you gotta use the macro to get a 2nd empowered attack, otherwise you'll do an auto attack, afaik
for assassination it's very easy without a macro though

torn dome
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Ns only affects one for sin

regal agate
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its not only for sub its in general for attacks with longer animation

polar orchid
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Does anyone know why SimC/Pawn are showing higher level items as upgrades? They have tanked my mastery as a Sin Rogue from 167% to 149%. Is it all the agility on the higher level gear?

regal agate
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agi is a strong scaling factor aswell

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so likely comes down to that

polar orchid
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It gives me 874 more agility and sims higher. Just seems wierd to run with such a low mastery.

scarlet flower
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Does somebody know how many setups askmr does for gearing strategy. It tells me how many setups have been completed but i have no clue how many more to go.

tough hornet
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1800-2200

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took me about 1hr30min

manic pulsar
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Yeah it's in that range. About 1000 for stats, and then a bunch of sims for all the special effects.

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2000-3000 depending on the spec.

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Assassination is relatively slow to sim compared to their specs, especially on aoe.

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And outlaw is slow because of the high variance.

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Each setup requires a lot more iterations for the same margin of error.

fervent onyx
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did tier 21 go in on nightly build?

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I know it was planned a few days ago

glass rune
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yes they are

vagrant quail
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how good is t21 ? for sin/ sub?

gilded echo
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what ability do I use to soak cataclysm on kil'jaeden? cloak didn't seem to work last night. evasion?

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whoops wrong channel sorry

vagrant quail
tough hornet
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AMR doesnt take in account vanish bug

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and i believe there is also a SoD double cast bug in simc?

maiden cargo
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goroth is not patchwerk

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double SoD has been removed also

willow pecan
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And just to add, AMR will supposedly always be slightly lower, because it "doesn't respond immediately to power gains".

regal agate
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@vagrant quail thats becouse amr has a totaly diffrent apl for sub dfa, this makes numbers that far apart (vanish bug isnt as big of an dps gain), you can use the training dummy simulation of amr to get a patchwork fight scenario but also adjust the fight lengh to be the same in both tools if you want to compare that.

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@tough hornet the bug was fixed asap when we found out that it was triggering the energy gain twice 😉

boreal patrol
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Jedi hand gesture That double energy bug never existed. Move along.

willow pecan
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@boreal patrol
Yesterday we had a debate on what abilities does Surge of Toxins actually increase for assassination
I've asked Swol to look into it, and he found that it does in fact buff poison bomb damage, and kingsbane DoT damage
but not kingsbane MH/OH hit.

i'm not sure if simc increases those hits with SoT, so i'm not sure i should open an issue or not
i would appreciate it if you could have a check

boreal patrol
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interesting

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this is according to spell data
Affected Spells: Deadly Poison (2818), Deadly Poison (2823), Wound Poison (8679), Wound Poison (8680), Venomhide Poison (14795), Spore Cloud (32643), Deadly Poison (113780), Agonizing Poison (200803)

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i can have a closer look at it later

willow pecan
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yeah, that's why we had a debate about it

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so i asked swol and he tested in game

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what's spore cloud and venomhide poison even :x (previous expansions spells?)

mellow elbow
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Npc abilities

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Or trinkets

willow pecan
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in case you want to test it yourself, that's how he said he tested PB
To test poison bomb, I spammed one point envenoms until I got a proc (by only using garrote) and then compared that to spamming 5 point envenom until I got a proc.

i didn't ask how he tested KB though

mellow elbow
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Why the fuck are they here tho

boreal patrol
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it's not rare that there is some garbage in the affected spells list^^

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ok, i'll double check that later

willow pecan
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want me to open an issue?

boreal patrol
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feel free to 😃

willow pecan
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done

boreal patrol
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thanks

split sorrel
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yes

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sometimes they are wrongly/not flagged 😃

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this is where the magic happens #voodoo

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and where most bugs appears 😛

river bramble
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how can i sim a new relic? have a 920 fortunes bite and a 915 gutripper just dropped

regal agate
river bramble
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rhanks

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thanks*

torn dome
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You can just prob pb on 2 dummies next to each other.
Already proved it during EN pb was affected

willow pecan
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you've tested without AP?

torn dome
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Yes. Almost a year ago. And it literally takes 2 mins in your order hall

willow pecan
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Well, like i said before, i don't know how SimC implements it, i just wanted mystler to check if it does or doesn't
AMR did buff it

torn dome
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And was supposedly implemented after

willow pecan
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that's a cool visualiztion 😃

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the debate yesterday started regarding KB though

torn dome
willow pecan
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yah

torn dome
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Im also fairly certain kb initial is affected just like the dot

boreal patrol
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currently in simc both KB strike and dot as well as PB are affected

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will test ingame in a bit

torn dome
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Thats what we concluded half a year ago in testing

willow pecan
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just for the record, i said it does buff it, broadsides said it doesn't buff KB 😬

boreal patrol
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definitley looks like KB strikes are affected as well

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so this is already simming correctly

willow pecan
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alright, thanks for settling that

manic pulsar
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I just tested again on KB strikes

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and they definitely were not affected

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for my rogue, the min KB hit is 150,416, max is 167,220. WIth 5 CP SoT debuff, min is 165,458 and max 183942

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I observed multiple sub 155k hits with 10% SoT on target, which is impossible of SoT affects the strikes

split sorrel
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Do any of you two got logs (Mystler/Swol) ? That's still the best way to validate / invalidate things whenever it's trackable 😉

manic pulsar
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I can make a log when I get back home if you don't believe me 😉

split sorrel
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I do, I just want to understand why you two don't get the same results 😉

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I don't think NA got a different game than EU, so there is an explanation somewhere that logs can highlight 😃

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(And I can't test right now, might later tonight)

manic pulsar
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while we're on the topic of simc bugs, there were still a few left unresolved

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I supposed I could make tickets for all of them

split sorrel
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It's possible, I'm a bit out of the loop since some weeks but Mystler can have a look at it

manic pulsar
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yeah the ones I found are that run through is proc'ing main gauche, symbols of death gives energy twice, shadowstrike on pull isn't doing 25% more damage, and relentless strikes is proc'ing from weaponmaster evis(it shouldn't)

regal agate
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symbol one is fixed

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shadowstrike out of stealth does 25% more damage thats not a bug aswell

manic pulsar
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that was a bug a week ago, maybe it was fixed.

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I haven't looked through all the commits

split sorrel
#

That's weird considering that was the reason it's worth to SS instead of Nb whenever u're at 5CP due to MfD

#

And I did this weeks ago, if not months

manic pulsar
#

Yeah, I remembered you saying something about that, and I checked a log... and it wasn't getting buffed, so it was weird

split sorrel
#

Stealth & Vanish should buff shadowstrike

#

although, subterfuge got different stealth & vanish spell id

#

might be the reason that it's working/not working on some ids

manic pulsar
#

yeah it seemed like vanish was doing it, was just the initial one on the pull

#

but if it's fixed then that's all good

regal agate
#

the symbol one is fixed

#

i dont understand the ss one as its intended to do 25% more damage for the first ss

#

is it not ingame?

manic pulsar
#

it does in-game. it wasn't in the sim

regal agate
#

oh

boreal patrol
#

25% more damage with stealth or vanish up... this was in since PTR cycle 😕

willow pecan
#

mystler, what did you do to test KB damage with/without SoT?

split sorrel
#

00:05:45.320 Aéthys gains 14 Energy from Aéthys's Relentless Strikes (O: 22)

00:05:45.390 Aéthys gains 0 Energy from Aéthys's Relentless Strikes (O: 36)

#

Are you sure weaponmaster shouldn't proc Relentless Strikes ?

#

Took from my last raid

manic pulsar
#

yeah i tested it a whole bunch and never saw a double energy gain

#

i could test again

boreal patrol
#

@willow pecan just hit dummy with kingsbane several times and then again with 6cp SoT before

#

saw 10% more damage on average

manic pulsar
#

@boreal patrol so, to test kingsbane, I wanted to avoid using average damage, since we can actually devise a test that gives us 100% certainty with one data point. Here's a little spreadsheet you can use to calculate your kingsbane damage:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AyqKkj3tiw3En_25vummByoEyFkf86RLLuECWqZYox0/edit#gid=0
These are the values I was using on my test rogue that only had 35 points in assassin and wasn't using master poisoner. The calculation shows us that if a 5pt Surge of Toxins is on the target and affects KB, it is impossible to hit for less than 165,458 damage. Look at my log I made here at time 11:08:04.804 i cast KB after applying SoT at time 11:08:03.665. The damage is 156190, which is an impossible number if SoT is affecting KB.
https://pastebin.com/NeR5N76S

Pastebin
KB Test - Pastebin.com
Google Docs
Kingsbane Damage

Sheet1

Agility, 32251
Mastery, 2. 1617
Versatility, 1. 0741
Min Weapon Dmg, 2345
Max Weapon Dmg, 4357
Assassin' s Resolve, 1. 17
Assassin Core Passive, 1. 22
Slayer' s Precision, 1. 05
Silence of the Uncrowned, 1, 1. 1
Master Poisoner, 1, 1. 3
Surge of Toxins?, 1. 1
w/ o SoT, w/ SoT...

boreal patrol
#

no SoT <300, with SoT >300, looks pretty much like 10% increase to me

manic pulsar
#

so then how would you explain the result i just found?

manic pulsar
#

@split sorrel Here is a controlled test for the weaponmaster relentless strike.
At time 11:29:50.914 I cast evis, taking me to zero CP.
At time 11:29:54.363 I gain 2 CP from shadow techniques.
At time 11:29:55.037 I cast evis and get a weaponmaster proc
At time 11:29:55.148 I get one relentless strike energize for 12 energy
No double relentless strike proc.
https://pastebin.com/Q50QhS0L

Pastebin
Relentless Strike on Weaponmaster - Pastebin.com
boreal patrol
#

don't have the time to check out why the calculation doesn't match atm, will do when i have the time

#

i checked RS and that definitely sohuld not WM, yeah

#

will also fix when i have the time

manic pulsar
#

I used KB like 40 times without SoT up and every single hit fell within my calculated range, so I'm sure we have the formula right (simc and AMR use the same formula)

manic pulsar
#

@boreal patrol looking at that log you posted, you had elaborate planning talented, so you were seeing the increase from that buff, not SoT

tough hornet
#

@manic pulsar thoughts on a talent compare feature like raidbots has for amr?

manic pulsar
#

You can already do it, actually.

#

We're going to put in some UI tweaks to make it easier.

tough hornet
#

oh in custom batch

boreal patrol
#

@manic pulsar oh, of course, that makes sense

tough hornet
#

@manic pulsar is there a way to try both gear combos and talent combos?

#

i tried doing this in custom batch but it only did talent combos

manic pulsar
#

Yeah, you need to pick at least 2 items in a slot for it to try combos.

tough hornet
#

ah i thought it kept the ones already equipped, mb

manic pulsar
#

yeah those batch sims can do all sorts of stuff, but the UI needs an update for sure. Workin on it!

boreal patrol
#

@manic pulsar thanks for the report fixed those issues

#

except Shadowstrike Rank two, that was always working correctly, not sure what you saw

#

to return some feedback, when I looked at Insignia after mentioned it, I noticed you are applying Shadow Fangs double dipping, but that does not seem to be correct

manic pulsar
#

interesting... yeah that makes no sense, heh, I can't figure out anything that would let us calculate that result other than just reversing out a multiplier..

#

so blizzard

boreal patrol
#

yeah, I also asked around a bit but no idea how that multiplier comes to be

#

tried some calculations with armor (since it seems to depend on that and/or enemy level)

#

could not really find anything

split sorrel
#

🍝

snow citrus
#

Guys

#

Are all EoE spheres picked up in simc?

regal agate
#

yes it collects all spheres

sacred monolith
#

hey, where can i find spreadsheets with numbers and others things ?

#

for everything

split sorrel
#

it's a website now

regal agate
#

i will add it to the latest pin moment(done)

inner dune
#

Is Raidbots borked for people right now?

regal agate
#

works fine for me

manic pulsar
#

@regal agate someone told me earlier today you said there were some sub rotational things you pointed out to me that I hadn't incorporated yet. What were they? As far as I can tell the rotation in AMR plays like rogues in most logs I see except for the vanish bug usage.

regal agate
#

still the same as i told you when you posted me your log

#

you overcap on energy quite heavily

#

letme check moment

#

oh you improved the apl recently?

manic pulsar
#

um... let me see, i updated it on 7/18

#

with some better openers and more specific logic for mantle

regal agate
manic pulsar
#

i played around with some different timings. I saw a few top 10 logs using that timing and tried it out - it worked well. moving it forward by a couple seconds doesn't really change total dps

#

using it with this timing usually buffs an extra evis, but 1 or 2 less shadowstrike

regal agate
#

i changed NB condition to refresh nightblade when symbols come up and nightblade wouldnt run for the whole duration to avoid situations like this (also bc. it was a damage win) also intressting enough its not using shd after dfa there

📎 Unbenannt.png
manic pulsar
#

my guess is there is no charge available, since the rotation would use it if possible

#

not sure how it would end up with no charge available though

regal agate
#

vanish should be aligned to symbols best with dfa(with mantle), i didnt look in your conditions but this shouldnt happen also

📎 Unbenannt.png
#

without mantle you should still use it during symbols

manic pulsar
#

yeah i played around a lot with aligning everything perfectly

#

but really... having one or two instances of slightly sub-optimal use... doesn't change average DPS hardly at all

#

the rotation is already pretty ridiculous

#

guess i could add even more logic to it lol

regal agate
#

what i dont understand

manic pulsar
#

but it's getting to the point where i'm really wondering: does it matter?

regal agate
#

you kind of use the same rotation

#

why is there a 200k+ difrence in both tools

manic pulsar
#

there isn't

#

i just sim'd my rogue and dps is almost the same

#

simc uses vanish bug, so i expect it slightly higher - and simc has different timing model which sub benefits from a lot, so expect 1% higher dps in general

#

but other than that, they are the same

regal agate
#

vanish bug is ~1% for dfa

#

so ye its not that mutch

manic pulsar
#

so my rogue sims to 1002717 in AMR and 1028357 in SimC, using the 111xx13 build

#

that sounds about right, taking into account the vanish bug

#

and simc's different timing model

regal agate
manic pulsar
#

what character are you simulating?

regal agate
#

my own

#

on both sim tools

manic pulsar
#

can you give me a link to it?

regal agate
#

moment

#

is that fine?

manic pulsar
#

yeah just needed to konw what toon to sim

#

oh, well, that doesn't tell me which toon, heh, you shy or something?

regal agate
#

nope just dont like to post my char public

manic pulsar
#

it looks to me like some specific combination of items is not simulating the same between the two simulators

#

because most characters have almost no difference

regal agate
#

moment

manic pulsar
#

so i'll see if i can figure out which item combination isn't simulating quite right - might be people with no 2t19

regal agate
#

does that work?

#

and yes its t20 4p, but the diffrence between the simulation tools is high

manic pulsar
#

is there any way to do a sim in simc without the vanish bug?

regal agate
#

you can dissable the bugs

#

bugs=0 if i remember right (or bug=0)

#

another intressting thing is specter gives
+34k dps for amr
simc gives:
+39kwith simc condition
+22k in simc with amr condition

so it gives a higher base value with the same usage whats intressting

#

(no specter in aboth sims)

manic pulsar
#

looks like simc is using it only with shadow dance and symbols of death up?

regal agate
#

shadowdance and (symbols or mantle)

#

is the contition to my knowlage

willow pecan
#

no, SimC changed trinkets to be used on CD

#

except glaives

regal agate
#

no thats wrong

#

it takes the standard contition if there is no condition set for the specific trinket

willow pecan
#

Aethys changed it

#

so there won't be a standard condition for anything

#

so it uses on CD

boreal patrol
#

stop stop stop

#

that was assa

#

each spec has a default condition if there is no special condition and some (like specter for sub) have those

manic pulsar
#

yeah I'll take a look at this stuff a bit more... sub rotation is so hard to mess with because everything is so connected. Looks like the simc APL is using symbols of death on cooldown exactly, and then lining up death from above to that, and also vanish.

#

looking at SoD uptime, only possible way to get what simc gets is if you never delay it, even for a second

regal agate
#

thats the idea behind it

#

symbols is with t20 a strong cooldown and you align stuff with symbols it gives you a higher widnow of opotunity

manic pulsar
#

right

#

this simc apl is ridiculous to follow - i guess people just use that addon to do it

#

i mean at this point it's a piece of programming

#

in-game we just know what to do

#

i need to refactor this entire rotation into something a human can read somehow

regal agate
#

its relatively simple in the base: use symbols kinda of cd and align cooldowns to it

manic pulsar
#

with how the rotation is working right now in simc, you could really just take off all the conditions on it and use it on CD with 4t20

regal agate
#

i was just woundering about the diffrence in output

#

as its quite alot diffrence

manic pulsar
#

yeah i'm trying to figure out if the difference is entirely from rotation or not

grand apex
#

symbols/dfa usually line up fine, getting a finality for that window and using the extra shadow dance charge can wrench me sometimes

manic pulsar
#

but to do that i need to use the same rotation in both simulators

regal agate
#

its 14% in the simulation aboth

#

so nothing minor

manic pulsar
#

right, for this particular combination of items, the difference is significant

#

i'll figure it out

regal agate
#

but almost everyone is using 4p atm

#

so logs will show this combination the majority of time

manic pulsar
#

it's not JUST 4p

#

but it's ok, i'll have it fixed for tomorrow

#

ez

regal agate
#

😛 (good luck)

tough hornet
#

@manic pulsar ~90k difference as well

fallow wave
#

APL considers that you aways get the 4 balls on engine of eradication?

tough hornet
#

yes

#

max balls

fallow wave
#

That's bad.

#

😦

#

Thx

gray flume
#

Can someone explain why if 4-T20 is the generally accepted standard, why would there be a case if you have 4pc for simc to sim using 3 pieces of it and maintain 2pc T19?

tough hornet
#

in cases like this

gray flume
#

mine are like 10 ilvl's apart

uncut crater
#

Is it possible to sim in simC so that it takes set boni into account?

regal agate
mossy loom
#

is there a simc preset for testing relics?

#

as in does somebody have a profile they can share

#

Subtlety if it matters

manic pulsar
#

I did an update to sub today in the AMR simulator. Refactored the whole rotation into something sane and improved it for a few talent builds that it wasn't quite working for. I fixed one bug with t20 4 piece that would also have affected sims with that. Now the difference between SimC and AMR is relatively small (assuming you disable vanish bug in simc). The difference is mainly due to the different timing models in the simulators - I don't think the differences will affect theorycraft in any meaningful way. IMO, skilled players are much more likely to be able to actually do what AMR is doing, but it doesn't really matter a whole lot.

#

let me know if anyone sees any other issues

regal agate
#

waht exactly did you fix?

tough hornet
#

well there will be issues for today as simc is being weird

#

but yeah

manic pulsar
#

t20 energy regen wasn't happening

#

and I redid the rotation to focus more on max SoD uptime

tough hornet
#

does this mean i would need to do a new gearing sim?

manic pulsar
#

it would make t20 4 piece favored more if it wasn't currently recommending it

#

We're going to redo the adaptive strategy for rogues in the next day or so - it's in the queue.

tough hornet
#

yeah i found it was pretty good after gearing sim but pretty innacurate beforehand

manic pulsar
#

the general gearing strategy gets within about 2% of optimal simulated dps right out the gate

#

further refinement requires some individual sims probably

regal agate
#

" and improved it for a few talent builds" something that also apply to simc or amr only? if simc mind sharing?

manic pulsar
#

I haven't done a full comparison to simc apl - just did a few spot checks. That simc APL is a beast, someday I'll translate it into amr, heh. Mainly I improved the DFA sims in AMR with t20 4 piece. That was the main combo talent/item that was not behaving optimally.

#

simc apl uses such heavy use of implicit type conversion, which AMR doesn't support (by design) - so it takes a really long time to decipher and translate it

regal agate
#

well i am still not fine with simc apl

#

i think there are some improvements to do but i guess there will be always^^

manic pulsar
#

i think the structure of my new rotation is as "simple" as a sub rogue rotation can get and still do what we want it to

#

i did some checks on the spell cast and they seem to follow all the rules we want, but let me know if you find any anomalies

regal agate
#

yes the base of sub rotation is simple ^^ and brings good results

#

the rest is fine tuning more or less

manic pulsar
#

i blame mantle

regal agate
#

vanish condition without mantle can be toned down to "when symbols is up"

manic pulsar
#

well, i don't want it used if i'm not going to get the max CP gain from a shadowstrike

regal agate
#

shadowstrike is the strongest ability during stealth/dance so ofc we want to get as mutch of it as possible (without wasting to mutch cp)

#

latest vanish condition change made it less forced to use ss

#

it was more or less ss-dfa befor but brought less dps

split sorrel
#

Yes the APL is a bit boring to maintain sometimes 😛

manic pulsar
#

yeah i think one thing i forgot to do is look at vanish use with subterfuge talent

#

will have to do that still

regal agate
#

its time consuming to work on the apl

manic pulsar
#

tell me about it 😉 I maintain the apls for all 36 specs.

regal agate
#

😛

split sorrel
#

Why didn't u think about an APLGen solution ?

manic pulsar
#

I'm not familiar with that term

regal agate
#

some algorithm that automates the apl generation

#

i assume

split sorrel
#

Yes, kinda Machine Learning

manic pulsar
#

ah, yeah I didn't want to do that because the results are not human-readable. I want the rotations to generally be something that people can look at and understand

#

as much as possible

#

it's surprising how simple a rotation can be optimal for a lot of specs

#

rogues tend to be on the complicated side

#

with automated rotations, you basically end up needing add-ons programmed to tell people what to do. Just not my style

split sorrel
#

you can aswell extract the playstyle

little hedge
#

anybody here a master with sims? I need to lend some hlp 😮

manic pulsar
#

yeah maybe someday i'll play around with that idea. For now it's helpful to do them myself, so that I understand each spec. Makes it easier to maintain the simulator.

maiden cargo
#

Hello, sorry no sebtlety rogues in that chat room, question if I may. As a general rule is it okay to use Nightblade at 4 combo points or should I way for 5 (with a maybe RNG 6)? Thanks in advance.

proper cairn
#

has Specter been changed in latest Simc Nightly ?

#

sims a lot lower now

regal agate
#

there was no change for specter but there where for other things that might impact your overall output

proper cairn
#

will check em out, thanks

regal agate
#

you can look the simc commits (link in first pin) to see what changed in simc

lunar trout
lunar trout
regal agate
#

was updated today, vary might come from target error

lunar trout
split sorrel
#

Gear isn't the same

#

We're currently refactoring a little bit the workflow of the website

lunar trout
#

Thanks 😃

odd sedge
#

does first of the dead apl use anticipation?

regal agate
#

no

odd sedge
#

hmm

#

thats unfortunate

regal agate
#

and you likely refer to the simulation, the string shows the talents

odd sedge
#

yes im looking at apl right now, shouldnt it have a condition for anticipation? so you could do 2 globals to build cps

regal agate
#

mhm i am not sure if i didnt try sth like that already but i can look into it, i am currently trying to optimice the use with mfd

odd sedge
#

something like "if anticipation enabled and cps = zero and SoD off cd, use SoD+ 2 SS or 2 BS"

regal agate
#

its abit more complex

odd sedge
#

yes but it would be a start

regal agate
#

as if you set up the condition to be on 0 cp when using symbols you need to either delay symbols (what is what player usualy tent to ) or finish with low cp pre symbols (what fucks up finality).
i tryed to adjust it for non anticipation with slight deley to symbols but it was a damage loss

lunar trout
#

I've updated my Subtlety Legendary Comparison spreadsheet with results from the latest nightly build of SimulationCraft. Hopefully this will help answer some common questions since the changes and encourage discussion until the updated combinator is finished.

As ever, your mileage may vary - it is always recommneded that you run the simulations for your own scenario. Be sure to check the "Context" panel to the right to see what conditions these results relied on.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HsQ9DNWv2W1r-PYT6_Ssm0GQKQ65wL1hqHjarf-hPeQ

regal agate
#

looks nice 😃

regal agate
#

@odd sedge i tryed optimizing for anticipation but didnt found any condition changes that where a win, however i improved the apl for mfd slightly (minor dps gain, will open an issue).

tough hornet
#

@lunar trout where are shadow satyr's walk :(

#

@manic pulsar i looked through the AMR sub api, it looks like it doesn't optimize first of the dead (legendary hands) usage?

odd sedge
#

@regal agate thanks 👌 are you confident that means anticipation isnt better with gloves?

regal agate
#

the problem is the tuning of anticipation

#

you lose the linear scaling of evi, the stonger finality aswell as the base 5% finisher damage while the majortiy of our damage is shifted into the finisher

manic pulsar
#

@tough hornet I tried optimizing the combo point gain from the hands, but it ends up being a wash compared to just optimizing SoD uptime.

tough hornet
#

the simc APL seems to value gloves quite a bit higher

#

not sure why then

indigo sphinx
#

how was the glove used in the rotation? or any example of using it in DfA build?

strong gorge
#

An easy way to check such is to go into the report and scroll down and expand "Action Priority List". If that doesn't make any sense. Scroll down a bit and expand "Sample Sequence Table"

full kindle
#

Gloves ain't realy optimised (at least on Raid Bot) a lot of time apl does bs bs bs bs sod bs, it's still wasting almost 35% ich cp for for the gloves effect, I've noticed fuu made some changes yesterday on the gloves roation, dunno if he was working on that, or something else, don't know if it's been implemented on raidbot aswell

#

But for general use you want sod bs dfa when you're having shadowblade up, maybe use a bs before to get to 6cp

#

for dfa combo

torn dome
#

Thats what its doing

#

And yes it wastes cps

#

And yes it is better to do so than delay sod.
Finding a way to have both is obvs better if possible

full kindle
#

it was about 38% on the few sims i've made

strong gorge
calm dust
#

Hello. One Question to Sim ToS AOE Fights like Harjatan or Mistress. Do you configure a Patchwork-Fight with more Targets or HecticAddCleave with 1 Target?

regal agate
#

@full kindle i just made some logical improvements to hands, doesent mean there isnt a better way 😉

full kindle
#

So after you're changes apl still does thoses 3 bs before sob bs dfa ?

regal agate
#

but those already brought better dps i tryed setting up for gloves but it was a loss compared

#

its the symbols condition

#

it uses symbols on cd w/e of cp value

#

so it can be that bs-bs-symbols-bs happen

full kindle
#

woud it be a loss to update sod condition to only sod where cp =< 2 ?

regal agate
#

moment ill run it for you

full kindle
#

To make gloves sim right we need to fin some way to reduce that 38% cp waste

regal agate
#

we have more then this ressource waste

novel lava
#

wasting 2 cp on average has to be better than holding symbols for like 5ish seconds

full kindle
#

yeah maybe for 2 cp

regal agate
#

there is always something to improve tbh

full kindle
#

It's waisting 3+

novel lava
#

that's why i said 2 on average

#

between 0 and 4

regal agate
#

moment need to start wow to get my gear string ^^

#

there are 2 ways to prevent this behavior

#
  1. finish with whatever cp before symbols come up
#
  1. deley symbols
novel lava
#

if you have 3cp, with sod not on cd, you have to wait for energy for 2 backstabs, use a finisher, then sod

regal agate
#

first one screws finality by alot 2nd one deleys symbols

novel lava
#

that's delaying sod a lot

#

or you can sod the finisher if it's an evisc

#

but that's 1 global earlier you cast

full kindle
#

coudn't be a way like if sod cd < 2/4s pool or spam bs and finish to be around 2/0 cp ?

#

I don't realy know enough of simc to know if it's anticipating cd

regal agate
#

i try <2cp or >=5/6 (depending on shb)

#

sec

full kindle
#

We loose like 1% uptime

#

on sod for new compared to old

#

Wtf, it still waste 38% of cp on fist

#

ho wait

#

okay it's waisting 8% less cp

#

on new apl

#

@regal agate

#

I think we coud get at least around 20%

regal agate
#

actualy

#

my 2nd thesis seems decent

full kindle
#

Yeah, but still 30% cp waste

#

we don't loose any SoD uptime tho

regal agate
#

well

little delta
#

!relics

full kindle
#

@little delta #bot-spam

regal agate
#

why?

full kindle
#

why is he doing finisher after sod ?

regal agate
#

thats from "new"?

#

becouse i set the condition to enter symbols when able to finish or on 1-2 cp

#

to get a higher uptime then with 1-2 cp condition only

full kindle
#

Yeah this is on new - finish before symbols : 1240359 dps

regal agate
#

whats wrong with that?

#

i dont see an issue here

full kindle
#

Well sod wihtout dfa wihtout even shd ?

#

Isn't it suposed to use it at the same time ?

regal agate
#

oh

#

[12:35 PM] Cioxs: why is he doing finisher after sod ?

#

i thought you talk about the first finisher after sod

#

its likely from the NB condition

#

it should refresh nb nearly every time prior to symbols to get no nb refresh during it, but in this case it does refresh nightblade (becouse the condition is set to a 3 sec window prior to symbols)

full kindle
#

and it's not useing dfa / shd

#

maybe this is only a single case

#

becouse

regal agate
#

it cant

#

as the requirement would be that nb lasts for the duration of shadowdance after dfa

#

what it isnt

full kindle
#

yeah but why use SoD now ?

regal agate
#

we discussed that earlyer the condition for nb needs to be optimiced abit more

#

you need to understand the apl behaviour

#

it uses symbols pretty mutch on cd and aligns cooldowns

#

its a special case that doesent happen to often but regular

#

the conditions for dfa are not met in this case -> it uses no dfa

full kindle
#

There is a lot of things i'm not understanding, things that i'm finding realy weard too, maybe that's because of my lack of knowlage on simulation craft / apl

#

I'ill try to get my self into it tonight and this w/e

#

I feel like i coud help if i had more of that knowlage, it's kinda frustrating to no be able to do something cause of that

regal agate
#

just ask 😉

torn dome
#

Well
Best thing to do is fir up simc wiki and start trying

#

Youll learn by doing

full kindle
#

I know

#

Just need to do it

#

😛

brisk token
#

Hello. What do you guys think about AMR vs SIMC, is there one better than the other ?

regal agate
#

use what you like more, simc is the go-to choice and offers with https://www.raidbots.com/ a web interface aswell. it also comes down to the spec/class you play one of the assasination rogue guide writers prefere amr > simc

Raidbots
brisk token
#

Ok. AMR BiB is sometimes weird, like telling me to use my crafted legendaries boots over bracers in assasination

#

so I was not really sure it was thrustful

regal agate
brisk token
#

Thank you 😃

shell fern
#

this is from the new hands APL, is this intended like this? backstab after goremaws bite with 3 cps during SoD

📎 unknown.png
regal agate
#

gb usage is intressting there

#

given you got symbols up there

tacit galleon
#

do you guys use raidbot for your statweights? If I do it on my on i dont really know which settings i should go with.

vague shale
#

hi guy's qucick question, I just loot soul of the shadow blade but my simcraft (top gear) is telling me to keep cinidaria the symbiote (more dps with the belt), my second legendary is the first of the dead. Should I equip the ring instead of the belt or should I keep the belt ?

full kindle
#

@regal agate I've see you pushed you're finisher before sod on apl

#

Is it live on raidbot tho ? Cause this afternoob Gloves were siming around 20k more than matle wrist but now they are lower

regal agate
#

no

#

i just commeted on the issue but you can use the apl i posted in #subtlety

full kindle
#

Humm you can't use custom apl in advenced right

regal agate
#

you can

#

just paste it between the gear lines or make a
copy="xxx"
paste apl here

full kindle
#

Humm

#

Not working

#

wait a sec

#

okay working

#

thx

finite lodge
#

is there a way i can see the simc profiles for the general sims?

regal agate
#

if you refer to the sims from the Ravenhold TC site they are not stored due to the large file size, but there is a information what was used

#

@manic pulsar thanks for pointing out subterfuge it was kinda broken for dfa

modest ravine
#

im getting an error for my trinket. "unknown option with value id=numbers"

#

is there an issue with eye of command?

#

thats my trinket1

regal agate
#

no

modest ravine
#

what could be the issue then? i copy/pasted from simc

regal agate
#

cant say without a string or anything

modest ravine
#

i just downloaded this nightly build 4 minutes ago

#

Unknown option 'trinket1' with value ',id=147015,bonus_id=3561/1487/3336'

regal agate
#

use raidbots^^

lofty kiln
#

Where did you copy&paste it?

modest ravine
#

just now

lofty kiln
#

Before or after rogue=<...> line

modest ravine
#

i thought raidbots wasn't good for outlaw to get statweights

#

i may have found the issue

regal agate
#

well ye you can use the client for higher target error % so thats true

modest ravine
#

yup i got it. carryover trinket from previous sim i didnt comment out

#

derp

#

50k iterations still isnt enough for outlaw is it?

#

thats all i can do for raidbots

regal agate
#

set it to target error and 0.05

modest ravine
#

i must be blind i dont see that option under "simulation options"

regal agate
modest ravine
#

thats simc

#

i got that

regal agate
#

yes

modest ravine
#

i thought we were talking about raidbots

regal agate
#

[8:56 PM] Shadow: i thought raidbots wasn't good for outlaw to get statweights

#

i thought you use the client to get lower target error

modest ravine
#

i am. miscommunication here. i got i though. thanks for the help

regal agate
#

riadbots has some restrictions i am not sure how high the target error is with 50k iterations

modest ravine
#

do more options open up if you are a patreon?

regal agate
#

moment

#

its still ristricted to 50k to my knowlage

#

but the raidbots dev discussed the issue in outlaw and plans to make it higher in the future likely

modest ravine
#

good. that will be nice

regal agate
#

for now if you want to be sure use the desktop client

modest ravine
#

will do. thanks again

tough dirge
#

you can sim up to 2mio iteration on raidbots, just have to use advanced Tab

#

sims get canceld after 20 min tho

finite lodge
#

if you're simming above 25k iterations raidbots sets the target to 0.05

#

50k got me to 0.071 on my outlaw weights

regal agate
#

0.07 should be fine

tough dirge
strong gorge
#

@tough dirge Oh, please send the report (press full HTML report tot he right)

#

Found a similar one, it's ok

prisma raft
#

2 boss targets?

gaunt gale
#

yeah, but even then haste shouldn't have a negative value ever, surely?

strong gorge
#

Surely, it likely breaks the apl somehow. Either by desyncing something that should be synced or by breaking some energy condition making it not being used

split sorrel
#

Prob Vendetta energy req

weak sparrow
#

What the christ how is your sim that high

#

Oh 2 bosses

maiden cargo
#

Hey guys, using SimulationCraft and always het this messages after simulation

has no weapon equipped at the Main-Hand slot.

IS that okay?

#

Import looks like this

#

main_hand=,id=128476,gem_id=145354/139268/151500,bonus_id=743,relic_id=3566:1632:3528/3379:1457:3527/3567:1672:3528
off_hand=,id=128479

deep bloom
#

are there any sims for races? cant seem to find any

regal agate
#

you can run a simulation using the string i pinned in #subtlety

ionic scroll
#

So was just helping a mate, and i think i may have found an issue with the base simc apl

#

Basically the opener that he does is different to the opener the APL suggests but he consistently (100% baring human error) out performs the sims opener? He got the opener from various sources, video/written/warcraft logs.

regal agate
#

for what spec?

#

and what exactly is wrong (in your opinion)

ionic scroll
#

Sub, it seems like the opener my mate is using is

#

blades shadow strike nightblade, dance, ss, synmbols , ss evis , ss backstab vanish dfa dance ss ss evis ss

#

but the sim appears to be using

#

Shadow Blades, SS, NB, Symbols, SD, SS, SS, Evi, SS, Vanish, SS DFA, SD, SS SS, Evi, SS

regal agate
#

depends on gear

ionic scroll
#

ahh ok, so he should use a custom apl?

regal agate
#

no

#

hes wrong i tested it its a dps loss

#

simc is also using the vanish bug but even without its a damage loss

ionic scroll
#

hmm odd cause he's getting consistent in game results higher than the sim burst. But fair enough you would know better than me.

regal agate
#

you mix up things

#

the opener is only a low impact factor

#

in fact playing it wrong will not make your dps 💩

#

like playing ss-bs-nightblade was the go to usage while it is a dps loss compared to ss-nb

#

in fact even if you play ss-bs-nb you can reach #1 in wcl and there are quite some logs using it

boreal patrol
#

it really is just that: an "opener", often pretty overvalued

regal agate
ionic scroll
#

Like I said you know better than me, and I was just helping him out and noticed the difference.

tough hornet
#

@manic pulsar does AMR consider the fact that Specter of Betrayal splits dmg aoe? It is recommending me specter over umbral moonglaives on the m+ sim setting. Granted, my specter is 20 ilvls higher than moonglaives but i think the proc on moonglaives does MUCH more dmg seeing as it isnt split.

#

Also its recommending me shadow satyrs walk (single target boots) over cinidaria ( works aoe), with equal ilvl replacements. SSW should be worse because you barely shadowstrike in aoe, right?

#

Actually this might be because it is considering only one setup for M+ and picking the best single setup

#

I usually use Cinidaria + moonglaives on all trash and swap to Shadow Satyr's walk + specter on bosses

#

I will probably just make a new gearing strat with only trash and then use a different setup for a 1min-1min30 boss

glass apex
#

Does anyone know if the SimC Build from 2017-08-10 includes the new apl which I have read here... ? (sry for bad english)

manic pulsar
#

There is a field for "splits damage"

subtle raptor
#

sim gives me higher dps with gloomblades then master of subttlety is that possibel ? (maybe cause i dont have the gloves)

regal agate
#

yes thats possible

ashen crater
#

@fromp Yeah my highest dps sim right now is insignia plus gloomblade. Just depends on relics and legendaries etc.

subtle raptor
#

ty, wanne make this work

queen glen
#

What's a good target error margin to set at or is none at all fine?

finite thunder
#

0.05%

#

or less

queen glen
#

okay thank you 😄

mellow elbow
#

What's the simulation option for boss fight with adds? Host, Mistress, Harjatan, KJ to some extent
Hectic adds cleve? I've heard it's pretty outdated, or not actually?

proper cairn
#

Mr robot has 2 options If I remember ones is mistress?

willow pecan
#

yes

deep bloom
#

which simulationcraft version should i use for siming my char and calculating my stats weight, regular one or nightly?

ashen crater
#

Nightly

regal agate
#

nightly, you can also use raidbots for it

jolly arch
#

don't think race has has a significant contributing factor in stats for awhile now.

regal agate
#

race is a minimal diffrence

jolly arch
#

didn't blizz change it to something like less than a 1% difference/

regal agate
#

you can run a simulation i pinned the copy commands you need to in #tc-research

vital ledge
#

Where do I find the simming ID for enchants? Or do anyone have Trained Soldier enchanted they can link me? 😃

regal agate
#

enchant="mark_of_the_trained_soldier"

#

if i have no typo

vital ledge
#

With "?

tough hornet
#

@regal agate you know of a way to vary time 2x in one sim?

#

$(Time)=180
sub_mantle_combos.simc

$(Time)=360
sub_mantle_combos.simc

#

like this

#

and sub mantle combos has this line

#

max_time=$(Time)

#

it only seems to do 360s for all of them

#

or do different time lengths have to be in different sims

#

or anyone else familiar with simc

#

im basically trying to step between 2 and 6 minutes in 1 minute intervals

#

and simming my legendary combos against it

#

to get a sense on how they scale with fight length

glass apex
#

can someone help me with how i sim a use trinket ?

tough hornet
#

<@&226424944148480000> ive been running a bunch of combination sims lately and im curious as to what the single_actor_batch=1 does in regards to sim results? do they sim faster? more accurately? less? etc

#

i know rather than putting all the characters in a raid it puts them into seperate phases but i have no idea how that affects performance or results

strong rune
#

it's something navv did recently

#

i think it's an optimization

#

raiding right now, will dive into it more in a bit

split sorrel
#

it bypasses health estimator and rather use "really" the fight length defined

#

it has its pros and cons

#

one of them is making a longer execute phase

#

but also a longer opener (cinidiaria)

lunar trout
#

I've updated my Subtlety Legendary Comparison spreadsheet with results from the latest nightly build of SimulationCraft - most notably the improvements to "The First of the Dead" usage.

As ever, it is always recommneded that you run the simulations for your own scenario. Be sure to check the "Context" panel to the right in the spreadsheet to see what conditions these results relied on.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HsQ9DNWv2W1r-PYT6_Ssm0GQKQ65wL1hqHjarf-hPeQ

meager wedge
#

if i get the sub legendary gloves what is the new rotation?

lunar trout
odd sedge
#

look at the gloves, its not hard to see whats different

keen plank
#

heya 😃

#

what is the most optimal fightstyle for overall ToS on raidbots 😃

#

a all around style :p

tough hornet
#

@lunar trout i also made a similar chart setup using the t20M profile and a larger selection of legendaries

#

i also suggest using a dps difference from baseline (mantle only) rather than straight dps

#

shows the difference between them clearer

maiden cargo
#

Can someone help me out with some simulationcraft issues?

boreal patrol
#

what's wrong? @maiden cargo

lunar trout
#

@tough hornet Neat 😃

maiden cargo
#

@boreal patrol I was having an issue where I had hit the point where mastery was better than crit. So i would use the new weights sim gave me for pawn, and re simulate myself to make sure it was optimal. And it would be a dps loss

boreal patrol
#

what do you mean resimulate?

#

just use the gear that sims best, weights change 😕

maiden cargo
#

What i mean (If you cant tell im new to this shit) Is I used the new weight, and put on the gear it recommended. For instance mastery was at 14 and crit was at 13 at this point. so my mastery crit rings were favorable over my crit mastery. I simmed myself with that setup and it pulled less damage, And then gave me another weight that was literally what my setup was before. Im assuming i was hitting a softcap right on the nose where i needed that amount of crit to do the maximum possible damage, but the only way mastery is better is if i keep it

toxic forge
#

looking for thoughts on the lego gloves use and synerdy with DFA during shadow dance... i tend to only use SD and SoD when i have 1 point so that i cap immediatley should i then use DFA which means 0-1 (sometimes im finding) more SS in the SD or do i evis then 2x SS and use DFA outside stealth but with SoD? (i know that in opener i can use with vanish but talking general rotation). Or do i always stack 2 SD to get the DFA in but i still lose some SS?

#

for subt i hope obviously

boreal patrol
#

@maiden cargo you're misinterpreting stat weights, the change you mentioned means simply that further points of mastery are a little bit more valuable than further points in crit, that does not mean change all your rings forth and back (sim direct comparison for that e.g. with copy lines and SimPermut), neither does it imply any breakpoints

ashen crater
#

@maiden cargo what you described is pretty common. Especially with rings and necks. All stats have a small amount of diminishing returns built in. So when two stats are so close in value like that, then switching gear can cause the stat that was simming lower to pull ahead with the new gear. I usually follow mystler's suggestion and compare the different pieces of gear using simpermut in situations like this.

stone tinsel
#

@vague olive

maiden cargo
#

!trinkets

#

The trinket list puts the 925ilvl Specter at a much higher level than the 915 Engine but when I use Simcraft, DPS lowers by 3k, what's going on there?

maiden cargo
#

@boreal patrol Thanks for the explanation! @ashen crater

maiden cargo
#

Anyone else unable to change amount of iterations on simcraft?

split sorrel
#

Yes, change the target error :)

quasi crown
#

Hello, where can i find a bis trinket list please? thx

regal agate
#

is a good place

quasi crown
#

tyy

knotty oriole
#

Just FYI, I just checked in an option called "legion.specter_of_betrayal_overlap" in SimC, if you set the value to 0 it will only proc the most recent reflection rather than both. This will allow simming Specter's value for fights where overlapping is not practical (notably something like Maiden)

#

May be worth incorperating into Trinket stack lists

tough hornet
#

you can actually double proc it on maiden

knotty oriole
#

Only about every other one though, iirc?

tacit galleon
#

hi

#

i got a question regarding simming options, I thought of doing one for ST and one for 3 bosses and all with light movement

boreal patrol
#

@knotty oriole that's a great idea, actually. can you open an issue on our TC hub? i can have a look at it, but probably not until after my vacation

mint turtle
#

Do sims take into count being behind the target for backstab?

ashen crater
#

I'm pretty sure that it assumes you're always behind the target. But I can't confirm. @mint turtle

split sorrel
#

yes

#

there is a position option

#

back by default

mint turtle
#

Was wondering why gloomblade was simming ahead thanks

iron elk
#

how i can modify the "stack" for infernal cinder?

lofty kiln
#

legion.infernal_cinders_users=x

iron elk
#

ty

twin jetty
#

@lofty kiln Are you everywhere? wtf

merry cloud
#

he just has rogue alt 😏

glossy willow
#

!help

merry willow
#

where can i find opener

#

with shoulders?

#

just got them

#

woops wrong channel sorry

tough hornet
#

@manic pulsar something is off here

#

recommends me boots and kj trinket

#

lol

#

instead of belt/bracers

maiden cargo
#

🤔

regal agate
#

@tough hornet what does top gear suggest you?

manic pulsar
#

@tough hornet if you hit me up with your export from the addon I can take a look. Is that a best in bag or best in slot?

tough hornet
#

best in bag

#

top gear from simc recommended me engine/moonglaive with belt/bracers

manic pulsar
#

I need your export from the in-game addon to see your best in bag to test it out.

tough hornet
#

sorry, unfortunately at work so I don't have that onhand

manic pulsar
#

np - if you can hit me up with it later on I'll take a look.

fresh latch
manic pulsar
#

those items are all really close in value - which one is optimal can really depend on what other gear you have to some degree

fresh latch
#

@manic pulsar ok, thanks 😃

winter wren
#

How close to their sim'd dps is reasonable to expect from someone?

#

Like, if I'm not doing exactly what my char sims, do I just suck nuts?

tough hornet
#

more than 100k difference on a patchwerk fight with the same fightlength is bad

#

imo

fervent dune
#

!legendaries

manic pulsar
strong rune
#

I think this is true, and most people focus on the effects, when stats do have a large effect. ^^^

manic pulsar
#

in this case as well, having 2pc t19, 4pc t20 is limiting the legendary options, otherwise shoulders would probably be a good choice too. He's got some high item level t19 though.

tough hornet
#

yeah i dont have shoulders

strong rune
#

Espeically for AOE, the bracers fall off pretty hard, and you simmed M+, which I believe is majority-AOE

#

The shadowblades uptime is 10 percentage points, which is non-trivial.

tough hornet
#

i thought the bracers did pretty decent multitarget?

manic pulsar
#

yeah the mythic+ script is a mix of AoE packs followed by a short 1 minute single target burst

tough hornet
#

like a slightly worse vigor ring

strong rune
#

Well, you'll get lots of extension, but the value of shadowblades alone in AOE is not amazing

tough hornet
#

especially if the pack is 5+

#

i guess

#

yeah

strong rune
#

Yeah.

#

So I am not 100% surprised by that result for an M+ sim either.

#

Where you do see a lot of value for the bracers, and shadowblades in general,

#

is when you're on a 4 target fight

#

because that 4-->5 diff is big

#

you kinda-sorta-don't-really-want to finish at 4

#

but i mean, depends on your energy ,etc

tough hornet
#

i was also surprised by the single target sim result

manic pulsar
#

4 is an awkward number for sub

tough hornet
#

im surprised it kept the boots over the bracers

#

insignia i could see a substitution yeah

strong rune
#

yep. so bracers help out a lot there, but as soon as you're at 5+, the value of shadowblades is drastically diminished

manic pulsar
#

yeah it's surprising, but, that's what data-driven TC/gear optimization is for, right? help us find the unexpected sets of gear.

strong rune
#

the AMR results here don't seem totally off-base, is all

tough hornet
#

i agree on the aoe sim i just saw crafted feet and i was 🤔

#

but ST seems surprising, i get a different result for simc with that

manic pulsar
#

yeah, the three sockets are probably the main driver, combined with their already desirable stats - that's a nice piece for sustained aoe

tough hornet
#

granted that is patchwerk

strong rune
#

yeah, they've got decent sockets

manic pulsar
#

I just updated insignia per mystler's comments on it, so it should be doing same damage as simc now

tough hornet
#

ah

manic pulsar
#

by "just" i mean before we updated these strategies

#

i tested it out as well to confirm the weird multiplier

strong rune
#

insignia 😦

#

so strange

tough hornet
#

same fight length

#

this is comparing the Single target adaptive gear suggestion

manic pulsar
#

yeah those are all really close

tough hornet
#

ah its within error %

manic pulsar
#

and keep in mind that for sub especially, the simc timing model makes the sims 1-1.5% different in general

#

between the two simulators

#

so expect small differences

tough hornet
#

simc seems to value the bracers + convergence combo much higher

#

i would have thought that AMR would swap out my boots for insignia instead of bracers

manic pulsar
#

yeah the bracers/insignia combo is best i would think - this starts to run into the limitations of examining very possible combination of gear in your bags. the adaptive strats aim to find you a set within about 2% of top simulating set, then you can refine from their if you wish. We're working on adding a "step 2" for bib that will simulate specific combos and augment your BiB choice with those sims. In this case it looks like the wrist + insignia is best for you:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/cbaa39592fbb4a5eb4e68bc8e1450393

tough hornet
#

ahh gotcha, that explains it

#

thanks

#

wait thats three legendaries haha

manic pulsar
#

yeah we're trying to get a few more UI options onto the site before next raid comes out. oh was it?

#

whoops

tough hornet
#

but gotcha, yeah i understand that because simming large amounts of combos myself takes forever

manic pulsar
#

yeah the example i usually use is that if you just had 3 relevant items per slot, that's 5 million combos almost.

#

that's the real wrist+ring sim

#

so same ballpark as all the other combos

snow thorn
#

just did a for Sub sim using the nightly build and the Sample action list from the simc report says that it did the following SB>SS>NB>SoD>ShD>SS>Evis>SS>Evis>vanish SS>SS>Dfa. now am I correct to say that this is wrong and that the second Evis actually be a SS, this is with gloves. Can anyone please confirm
its also causing the first dfa to not be under finality, as its used on that second evis

gray flume
#

simc assumes I always gather all 4 orbs from engine?

#

and also @manic pulsar , AMR's bis calculation still seems way off for me. It sims my inbag gear that I should take off 4-pc T20 (all heroic versions) to put back on T19 2pc.

#

And then beyond that, a single run sim puts me at 1.105m dps on Goroth (H)

#

where as Light Movement sims puts me at 1.271m for same fight length

#

and I'm more inclined to believe simc, as my last kill I pulled 1.19m (which would out-do my suggested max parse according to AMR by around 85k) and I fucked up my opener because I hit SS to fast and it Backstabbed instead, and then I also mis-keyed shuriken storm twice during the fight around the 2:00 mark.

#

so if I hadn't have made those mistakes, I'm assuming I'd have been even higher, and even further departed from the AMR sim, which just seems wrong.

torn dome
#

@snow thorn whyd the opener be wrong

snow thorn
#

I'm not sure if it is or not but on the simc report under sample cast list there's an evis where a ss should be, I'll screenshot it soon

#

...what a surprise, now its doing ss>evis>ss>ss>dfa just like it should.....i swear the sim i did it wrong. i think im going crazy

strong gorge
#

@snow thorn Did you check the amount of CP it had? SS with SB + double ShTech procs give you 5 cp

#

Double ShTech as in a ShTech proc that gives 2 CP due to trait

snow thorn
#

the one SS gave 5 cp + one from shtech however the gloves buff wasnt present. it was really weird, and has only done it once, and i cant replicate it

#

in my original post?

#

i mean unless i read it wrong, there was no first of the dead buff activewhen casting the 3rd last ss, yet it showed as having 6 cp when casting the last evis, also using finality, which i thought would be better used on the dfa

strong gorge
#

The APL doesn't play around finality evis at this time unless something changed

snow thorn
#

fair enough, still doesnt explain how i got 5 (+1 ShTech) cp from one SS with no gloves buff