supple timber
...
#tc-research
willow pecan
@split sorrel is something up with assassination's Deeper stratagem sim with Nightstalker?
it only casts vanish 40 seconds into the fight
is this intetional?
(with shoulders)
and subterfuge with Deeper Stratagem, does not extend garrote after using vanish
torn dome
no its not intented
and its due to older remains of assa exang apl that cause this interaction
APL doesnt vanish until you get 6 cp but it never forces 6 cp
So it only vanishes when it happens to get 6 cp
willow pecan
i see
so i guess that means we can't really rely on DS sims right now
maiden cargo
Im looking for a kind soul with a good computer to test a new apl for me pleaaase
@willow pecan ?
gray rose
newest simc build has t19 bonuses nerf in place?
regal agate
yes
tough dirge
is there an easy way to update with last nightly? or do i allways go to http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D and sort for last date ?
tough dirge
those two options dont qualify as easy way, thats what im doing but its anoying
regal agate
opening a wepsite that automates the majority of stuff is not the easy way?
you can also use the simbot 😉
you can also write a script that auto updates the client, that would be the "easy" way
rich temple
How is ticking the 'use nightly build' on raidbots not the easy way?
maiden cargo
Hi everyone
I'm playing around with simcraft and had a few questions regarding simming assasination
I'll be honest and say I'm a noob who's trying to min/max as much as possible because I want to pull my own weight in raids
One question I had was... what's the best setting for fight styles if I want to take into account raid mechanics, lightmovement?
wooden jackal
General question : How come simcraft and raidbots give me different dps when simming? and which one is better to use?
Sorry if this has been answered
just put it is sub by accident
!sim eu/sylvanas/qtpirategurl
finite thunder
raidbot is using the last nightly simc build
if you are using a old version, it will give you different results
raid bot max iteration is 25k, while in simc you can set to way more than that
round meteor
So should we use raidbot or simcraft
robust marten
minecraft
its honestly the same thing unless ur doing more than 25k itterations
which is what youll more than likely have simc set to
raidbots puts no strain on ur cpu and it auto updates to nightly build. ive stopped using simc pretty much
azure arch
Question. The Engine trinket. Do Sims run it correctly?
civic cradle
yeah they pick up orbs
odd sedge
so guys AMR is now flat out saying simcraft is shit? The other thing to keep in mind is that some of the rogue community leaders use SimC to generate their legendary lists, which is not a very good tool anymore. They use it because that is what they are used to. One of the major downsides is that it doesn't sim real boss fights - it sims unrealistic scenarios that never happen in-game. So the results it gives you have limited usefulness.
what a joke
split sorrel
source ?
lofty kiln
Source?
lofty kiln
🤔
regal agate
🤔 so amr has every bossfight/strategie and group constellation build in 🤔 ? (on every raid dificoultly)?
odd sedge
email someone sent got that answer
maiden cargo
🤔
regal agate
and they have a better apl for dfa etc?
torn dome
Wonder if the lege tier list has a disclaimer about being specific to this profile 🤔
And not universal 🤔
willow pecan
@odd sedge i just simmed myself on AMR today
i saw weird things happening in their sim. at least in the opener.
for example
it casts TB + KB and the same exact time-stamp
odd sedge
I mean it was never very good, so this kind of statement is weird
willow pecan
it also prioritizes to use Nightstalker-rupture instead of envenom, when you got shoulders and T19
and by doing so also wastes CPs
regal agate
they have only goroth (close to patchwork) in their tool
willow pecan
and in general they sim lower dps than simC does.
but that doesn't necessarily mean it's worst.
odd sedge
👌
regal agate
well i see alot of questionable things in their log and simulation results are alot lower.
intressting
pure condor
although the sin opener is questionable too in simc
and i think that guy is mainly talking about sin and not sub
so looking at amr sub opener might miss his point
regal agate
not rly
regal agate
i heared the ds problem
@pure condor they had their dfa apl relased while i had only a first prototype of my one, they should have improved their implementation up to now as they get payed to do so while i(and others) only work on it when i have time for
pure condor
i havent checked any differences in sub apls
just saying that sin apl is out of whack
and that guy was mainly talking about sin imho
considering that he talks about crown leggo
regal agate
"The other thing to keep in mind is that some of the rogue community leaders use SimC to generate their legendary lists, which is not a very good tool anymore. They use it because that is what they are used to. "
doesen reffer to a specific case
pure condor
and one sentence later he explains why he thinks its not a very good tool anymore. naming 1 (one) downside to simc
regal agate
if you know mathmatics, this thesis holds as long as i cant prove its not true, finding a specific case means i validated it as wrong.
pure condor
i happily agree that amr also has downsides like some apls
regal agate
they only have 1 bossfight of tos moddeld
torn dome
look
regal agate
so that applys also this thesis
pure condor
and thats more than simc last time i checked
torn dome
I dont care sim vs amr
but again sin apl is just old
regal agate
i agree that outlaw(maybe, not up to date with it)/sin needs an update
split sorrel
boss modelisation doesn't really have an impact for us
pure condor
then theres something we all agree on
split sorrel
the only one that matter is probably outlaw
and as sin, you don't really care being out of range for some seconds
west dawn
oi, how do i sim with 2 talents (vigor ring)? thx
regal agate
just equip it and have another talent learned 😉
willow pecan
@split sorrel can you please add your github site to #rules-and-guides ?
we're getting questions from people about trinkets even after they've checked that channel
maiden cargo
stjern said he will update it soon
split sorrel
@green wolf I can't edit it
regal agate
only the autor of a message can edit it to my knowlage
split sorrel
yes
willow pecan
how about copy paste it, add a line, and remove the old message
maiden cargo
lmao
split sorrel
can't delete nor copy the formatting so, I'll just wait him
green wolf
manic pulsar
@willow pecan I looked at that Assassination issue you mentioned - Toxic Blade wasn't triggering a GCD. I just updated it on live site.
@regal agate Where do you see a Sub opener using a 3 CP DFA? The opener in the default rotation uses SS, GB, NS, Goremaws, (gloomblade if no shadow technique proc), DFA
willow pecan
great, thanks
i also think it didn't generate CP properly, but i'm not sure
regal agate
oh in my simulation
on your side logs showed 3 cp
but can be me who didnt saw the proc
its kinda hard to read your logs
manic pulsar
easier than simc logs though 😉
mental mica
hey this is kinda a vague question but back in nighthold tier, with mantle my crit was valued ~12% in simc but its valued alot higher with the latest nightly and i have mostly the same ratio of stats just with higher ilvl. just wondering if thats the result of new apl's or im just overthinking it. this is my armory : https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/tichondrius/shadywong
manic pulsar
what are you trying to filter to?
regal agate
to only see abilities/procs and energy/cp
but now that you are here, you can bring some light to the mmoc post
willow pecan
@manic pulsar there was also an issue with T19 / NightStalker (with and without deep stratagem)
it just looks like the sim is trying too hard to get a NS rupture
while afaik, it should use envenom
but i assume that is harder to fix
manic pulsar
I can test a different opener - I really only have a true "opener" in the assassin rotation for fun, since we (AMR and SimC) tend to ignore true openers for theorycraft.
willow pecan
and yes, like fuu said, it's unclear what is our CP gain in the log, i couldn't find how to show it
manic pulsar
so your idea is to use envenom earlier on?
regal agate
what is a true opener?
manic pulsar
sure
regal agate
e.g. if i get procs (or wear t20 4p)
so if i hard code it i lose damage
what would be the purpose of that then
manic pulsar
I don't have a hard-coded sub opener
just assassination - because people were asking for it
so here is how you read the CP gains in the log:
regal agate
ppl can hard code opener pretty easy in simc aswell
manic pulsar
Sure, I never said they couldn't
hard-coding an opener is really just for fun - it has a very small impact on overall dps
so, on the energize lines
you see at time zero that shadowstrike generated 2 combo points
and on the right, the info column shows that the result is you now have 2 combo points
so we show CP gain, and resulting CP
willow pecan
not critical, but is it possible for you (for the future) to add a filter "resources" for CP, separate from energy
manic pulsar
when you spend energy, you see energy consumed, and resulting energy
regal agate
wow your opener seems rly energy unefficient
manic pulsar
Sure - we can add more filtering. Right now we have it mirroring the events in combat logs
regal agate
😉
manic pulsar
I've tested a lot of openers for sub
one of my complaints about the spec is that there's no way NOT to waste resources in the openers
so it's really a balancing game of picking what to waste
so far this is the highest DPS opener I have found, but I'm certainly open to ideas and not done tweaking by any means.
I don't think APLs are ever really "done"
regal agate
i agree on that
manic pulsar
It makes me sad when I see people saying not to use SimC or AMR because of an APL
APLs should be community discussions
all that matters is that the underlying implementations in the simulators are accurate
proper cairn
Swol what kind of tool is that ?
manic pulsar
I still need to do an in-depth look at why the crown for assassination simulates to more DPS in AMR than SimC
could be a rotation thing
could be something else
regal agate
simc apl for assasination also likely need some work
manic pulsar
I have an update log on our forum that I started for 7.2.5:
@proper cairn I'm not sure I understand the question? What are you referring to?
willow pecan
@proper cairn Swol is a developer for ask Mr. Robot simulation tool
proper cairn
that log analyzer
manic pulsar
oh, yes, that's the output when you do a simulation on Ask Mr. Robot
if you set the output level to "log"
manic pulsar
it just shows log for a random iteration
we used to have custom combat log parsing, but discontinued it for the time being in legion
the code for this log view came right from the old combat log site
we haven't implemented it yet, but the idea is that by making our logs in same format as real combat logs, we could build a tool to automatically compare sim log to a real log
proper cairn
that would be awesome
willow pecan
@manic pulsar this is what i get with subterfuge now for assassin (shoulder and T19)
only 2 envenom casts after vanish
should vanish before envenom
(there's one envenom before vanish there)
willow pecan
just briniging it up, so you'll have a direction 😃
manic pulsar
thanks for the heads up. I've been playing almost all sub, so I admit I haven't given as much love to assassin rotation yet 😉
willow pecan
ok now that my work here is done, i am trying to program a stacking bar chart myself, and i have 30 minutes left. so goodluck 😛
willow pecan
I am using syncfusion for xamarin
After already doing it with telerik to find there's a bug they refuse to fix
i once made a line graph by myself for Unity... added zoom and panning too
never again.
regal agate
i like 3d.js for wep applications but i wouldnt recommend it over the aboth becouse it has a higher lerning curve
i am not a fan of unity and unreal engine
willow pecan
i'm not making a web application and i hate JS, so there's that 😛
when was the last time you used unity
regal agate
about a year ago
if its not for a specific programm you work on i would just use a spreadsheet application.
i also think web appls are the future given how easy it is to store/update files in the cloud
willow pecan
it's for a specific application for iOS
and we're not gonna use webviews
but thanks 😃
regal agate
oh thats all swift then tbh last time i programmed on ios it was all objective c 😉
willow pecan
no, we use Xamarin
it's all in C#
I only program in C#
regal agate
ok, well good luck on your project.
willow pecan
that sounded like you don't approve XD
static stratus
aw poor .net peoples
willow pecan
whatever man, i get payed to be on discord all day 🙃
static stratus
who doesn't
plucky mural
I have a general question. when sims are run for stat weights, those are instantaneous DPS improvement weights. Is there an option to sim, any distribution of 2ndary stats?
Like sim a full range of mastery/crit/verse/haste, and provide max spread. Given current stat values, and get a result of 185% mastery, 0% haste, 15% crit, 10% verse, or something.
obviously 80% crit, 0 haste, 15% vers, 0% mastery might not be the best outcome, but would be nice to see the spread. without having to manually adjust stat templates.
plucky mural
aiming more for max dps Target stat weights, not current dps improvement weights.
plucky mural
there are variable for the scale stats. There is also a current default of each stat for dps scaling. and you can vary the incremental steps. Ill mess with that for a bit.
manic pulsar
@plucky mural The Ask Mr. Robot simulator is set up to do what you want. If you set the simulation type to "Gearing Strategy" it finds all the combinations of stats that simulate well and creates a chart to help you visualize the results. (It also does a lot of simulations to test trinkets, special effects, etc, so it takes a while to run.) The output gives a report like this:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/d0ee8117f1354f38b937d4f45a8064c6?weights=true
plucky mural
thanks. Ill read through simc help a little more. saw some interesting variables.
regal agate
you can use raidbots topgear https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/topgear
plucky mural
i saw some mixxed info in help. Default Stat increase at 1333, in another spot it listed 300.
when making stat weights.
manic pulsar
To find what you want using simc you will probably have to script it.
plucky mural
I was looking at the reforging graphs tbh.
similar ilvl and weights, just shifting values around
regal agate
aethys has a 4d plotting you may contact him for sth like that (its likely on git, you can ask on simcminmax also)
plucky mural
maybe what i want is to mess with the default stat increase and plot the results.
regal agate
ye you can also use the usual plotting
plucky mural
relatively new to dps. healing for the past 12 years really. simc wasnt a thing I cared about.
anyway thx
regal agate
well keep in mind that talent/gear change can make certain stats stronger/weaker so the best way to evaluate is to sim combinations you have
plucky mural
I could go buy all Mastery crafted 900 gear if it were an improvement.
plot is pretty nice tho. I just increased the plot step
I prefer to visualize absurd extremes.
regal agate
❤
plucky mural
this is way easier than expected thanks.
split sorrel
it's in CombinX
plucky mural
added agi to the plot, and it is even with mastery. That was not expected.
regal agate
for what spec(talent setup)?
plucky mural
sec. I dropped back to 10000 stat, but what was not more interesting is how well outlaw out scales sin over time. Adding agi to the chart helped visualise this a bit better.
outlaw bracer qd even the lowest stat scale does on par with sin MP/TB best.
1.3M with pure agi gain.
MP/TB T19 Sin stops at 1.16m
where agi = mastery (they overlap)
nothing substantial, but pretty neat. SND doesnt scale as well as RTB. I ran like 8 different talent biulds for sin, MP/TB was the best.
i like graphs tbh.
just adding these lines to the sim
dps_plot_stat=haste,crit_rating,mastery,versatility,agility
dps_plot_points=20
dps_plot_step=1000
plucky mural
I dont have bis legendaries for sin, so it is an unfair comparison.
just a fun exercise
odd sedge
I think simc is undervaluing vial of ceaseless toxins, trying out a 905 on yesterday on 5 mins fights (goroth wipes) it was never below 2.5% for me, but sims show 1.9%
it seems to be quite close to NBF, like an averaged out nbf if you will, without the lows and highs in variance
odd sedge
I just macroed it to SS in game lol
as a quick test
looking at my logs I think i even prefer it to NBF since that sometimes didnt even proc once in a 2 mins fight, vial is constant 2.7%+
dusty marlin
The sims for my DFA build shows that evisc only make 30% od my dmg while in game it stands for atleast 40-50% in all fights is my gameplay or sims off? 😄
torn dome
Theres 2 evi parts
dusty marlin
ah i see
inland seal
Does anyone know of any optimised sin APLs for sin in 7.2.5? (Not the default one)
regal agate
i dont understand the question?
split sorrel
Based on what he said on smm discord, I guess he's wondering if there is any custom sin APL, better than the simc default one, floating around.
inland seal
Correct
regal agate
i didnt know there was/is a modifyed version flowing around
inland seal
There may not be, hence why I was asking. It was prompted by aethys mentioning that sin could potentially be tweaked, I asked if he had plans to do so and he suggested I ask around
I know in the past some people in class diecords have created different ones (fury warriors last patch from memory) thought someone with the know how may have done with sin
regal agate
i created a dfa prototype apl (for sub) for testing and may have a slightly modifyed one i work on, but i am not aware of sth additional
it can be that somone has a private/modifyed apl but didnt share, the tool is to use for everyone 😉
inland seal
Yeh that's what i was hoping, chances are if they decided not to release that they may not respond to post, but thought it was worth the shot asking rather than harass aethys every day haha
split sorrel
😛
would have to quit my RL job to do everything I would like to do on wow 😉 but can't afford it sadly!
inland seal
Hahah while I have high expectations, i realised your only human and need some spare time
As much as it angers me
Haha
plucky mural
Vial sims a little better than my frond in standard APL for hecticaddcleave.
in M+, would just use it during shoulder after NS open (Sin) and hit the biggest guy in a trash pack. Mine crits for like 600k range.
red leaf
Hey guys.. I am having an issue with SimCraft. I'm an ASN rogue, and RaidBot is telling me my stat prio is Mastery > Crit > Vers, but when I run SimC, that tells me it's Crit > Vers > Mastery
There's no reason two things run SimCraft and get different results..
regal agate
did you update your simc to the latest nightly version?
red leaf
I just re-installed it yesterday
And was having this problem immediately
I'll try today's build
Even with the nightly build
It's still crit > vers > mastery
It's just a bit closer
odd sedge
raidbots is limited to 25k iterations, so it can provide different values
or maybe you changed some setting in either tool
plucky mural
I answered his question yesterday. his ilvl is low, and gear is not proper.
cant squeeze juice out of a raisin.
iron obsidian
yes u can
red leaf
iLevel is under 900, and I don't have Mantle, yes.
plucky mural
@red leaf the difference between those weights are insignificant. the large discrepancy is Agi. either way, you can reset settings in your local Simc if you like.
The results are typical of sims ive seen before. the crit value high is due to missing shoulders, and the low mastery is due to ilvl / itemization discrepancy compared to others.
You checked AP for simc. Not sure if that helped lower Agi in that version.
red leaf
Yeah, just kind of shitty that ilevel has that much impact, when RaidBot shows that mastery is higher.
RaidBot getting it right and my sim doesn't is annoying
fallen raptor
how can I sim relics? I have a 915 MA relic vs a 925 Malch
last hill
stable ferry
any link for BiS gear?
fallen raptor
is that usually accurate? the website
lofty kiln
@fallen raptor It's using simc, so if you trust simc... 😛
fallen raptor
Simc has done me good, so yeah lol
indigo drift
Does simc account for mantle lasting around 6.7s~ and not 6 seconds?
torn dome
no
green seal
are the sub sims working correcy ?
it keeps saying that crit is my best stat to look for
while i am atm at 37% crit
and only 75 mastery
regal agate
vanish condition has a wrong parameter in, next nightly/raidbots version should have it fixed
opaque plover
Hello, just coming back from a full tier break (left after mythic EN). I'm familiar with simc. My question is; is raidbots literally just a auto updated simc? Or are nightly builds using the simc app still more up to date?
Oh nvm. Did it from an actual pc vs mobile an located the builds. Disregard my ignorance
odd sedge
fuck no
merry willow
Few questions: When doing your shadow dance: Can you do SS SS SS NIGHTBLADE to refresh, or shouold your refresh your nightblade before going into shadowdance.
Should you delay in between shadowdances until subterfuge falls off (10% dmg buff)
odd sedge
this isnt a channel for rotationn questions
shadow rover
Siming with lavish suramar feast vs lemon herb right now
Sims worse for me by 2k
so Feast it is xD
brazen epoch
Anyone else getting Crit over mastery for sims
edgy loom
Hello good to everyone
toxic forge
hi all just a quick question, which is the best tool to use for simming ones self the simcraft raidbots or simbot?
torn dome
They are all the same
toxic forge
good to know
im new to simming so forgive any stupid questions. I have downloaded simulationcraft and it is saying there is a new release, when i click it takes me to page to download but the file i download is not an execute file and if i open it nothing happens... how do i update simcraft with it?
(or if it does it automatically hjow can i tell)
regal agate
there is a exe file that updates the installation on the posted link (pins) just use that
toxic forge
thanks Fuu
is there a way to change the talent choice on the string if i have imported?
or do i have to log in change talents etc?
toxic forge
ok where in the string?
torn dome
123 from left to right
toxic forge
nvm found it
so according to my sims optimal for me is talent 2310012 but have not seen this build suggested anywhere... am i missing something?
torn dome
Spec?
toxic forge
subt
mossy spindle
is there a trinket sim list?
boreal patrol
mossy spindle
ty
digital lake
i downloaded the smc 750 release 1...is it save to use/the right one? I am confused right now...
regal agate
you can use raidbots also, its easyer to use 😉
digital lake
ok ty 😃
cosmic rover
Can anyone tell me where to find the most up to date simc version is it just the nightly build right now ?
regal agate
most up to date = build from source
split sorrel
better than most up to date, be a dev 😛
maiden cargo
🤔
modest ravine
😛
cosmic rover
Haha 😄 just gona use raidbots pretty cool site
regal agate
raidbots builds simc every night so its up to date 😃
plucky mural
trying to sim a Crafted Ring, but Raidbots seems to haev the "Shadowruby Band" but nothing identifying stat split
pine tangle
is soul of the shadowblade too shit? cannot see it anywhere on the sims
lofty kiln
Hmm, these bonus_ids should be for rings, the above are for necks: https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/blob/legion-dev/SpellDataDump/bonus_ids.txt#L1579
spark bronze
Hi, what's "or" in simc like in the APL "&" is "and" so what do I do for "or"?
spark bronze
Sweet, thanks
vagrant quail
what is the gear setup used for t20M assassination simulation ?
swift haven
Does Simcraft take into account the effect from Thumb Ring?
finite thunder
@mental kiln yes
potent fog
is AMR reliable? Its telling me to go versa enchants and soldier for neck, but most everyone else says matery/satyr. I realize with different gear sets things change, and maybe that is better for me currently, but i wanted to see what you guys thought.
finite thunder
soldier is better(not a rule, depends on your ilvl and legendaries , etc etc )
but mastery still our best secondary, even with T20
for me (927ilvl hybrid 2p) its even better than agility
potent fog
hmm alright. I had heard satyr was best ST, but soldier was supposed to pull ahead on AoE of course. Just seemed kinda sketchy to me.
the relics they suggest for "BiS" were backstab ones too, from KJ. its all assuming no TF/WF though so maybe that makes sense then at that point.
finite thunder
that was a long time ago, with mastery becoming even better than agility, soldier pulls ahead and even for single target is better
ohhhhh, you are talking about sub?
finite thunder
you should ask that in sub channel, sorry , everything I said was about assassination
potent fog
ok, wasnt sure if i should ask in the sim channel or in there
finite thunder
not completly sure about mastery vs versa and satyr vs trained for sub, sorry 😛
toxic forge
anyone tell me whats the string for trained soldier?
feral crystal
Wowhead has the ids for everything
crimson pawn
anyone else had cinidaria deal consistently more dmg then simulationcraft says?
sc says its always 2,1% of my dmg. but its always like ~3,5%. does that mean the burst of my guild sucks or what? 😄
strong rune
it means your guild spends more time in the cinidaria window than the sim assumes, that's all
finite thunder
and you cant look at % damage, you need to look at what dps it actually did
crimson pawn
looking in my logs at the dps cinidaria did, its in most bossfights the double of what simcraft says.
so what does that mean?
finite thunder
longer 100%-90% phase than in simc?
crimson pawn
so basically what deimos said
finite thunder
yep
languid pebble
so im comparing some 880 pants for 885 T20 LFR set pants just to see if its a minor upgrade, and this is my first set item so im not getting any bonuses at all, and Simcraft is saying it's a 30k DPS increase when using the set pants. is it possible that Simcraft is erroneously thinking i have the set bonus? maybe i just dont have a certain setting ticked or something?
cobalt junco
hey guys, should i have weapon and off-hand dps tikked for running sims?
ashen crater
@cobalt junco no you don't need those checked this expansion since we have artifact weapons.
cobalt junco
ok ty
ashen crater
@languid pebble in your results, look under "profile" at the end it should have your gear then your stats then see if it says "t20=1" or something along those lines.
brisk hawk
Where can i find t20 sims
cursive dock
simc nightly in .dmz ... how to run it?
cannot find tutorial for nightly..copy paste in simc folder?
merry cloud
@cursive dock http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D you grab .exe from here and just reinstall
cursive dock
@merry cloud oh not the first one that name as nightly?
regal agate
nightly becouse they get usualy updated every night
fresh lake
Since Simcraft does know what items you have in your bag, does it take them into account?
regal agate
the simc addon puts them as a comment in your imput string, raidbots top-gear feature can use them
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/topgear
craggy zephyr
is the simc sub apl optimized for legendary gloves?
i feel they have some potential in t20 4set when using like : dfa ( shadow dance + sod before evis hits) 6cps SS
royal laurel
or you use bracers and have 10time more CPs from SB
craggy zephyr
or i dont have bracers 😛
regal agate
dont think so
royal laurel
😦
regal agate
need to check if there is a line for gloves
craggy zephyr
gloves right now are simming above insignia for me
like 10-15k above
and if the apl isnt optimized for them, they could be much better than ppl think
royal laurel
maybe you have really good rings and shit gloves
royal laurel
i probably would use insignia, cloak and even will of valeera and sephuz over the gloves
but maybe i'm wrong
regal agate
sim it on raidbots 😉
craggy zephyr
lul, probably not smart
crimson pawn
and the burst dps in simc as sub with dfa is not 100% correct either, is it?
it says, i burst for almost 3mio dps but its actually WAY more. therefore cinidaria deals always
more then 2,1% (what simc says) of my dmg.
proof: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/PXnJbvkwfKyMpqHC#type=damage-done&source=24&fight=22
royal laurel
shocking news: simcraft only a simulation of reality, never 100% correct
more news at 5
crimson pawn
but that far off?
royal laurel
depends on the APL and the assumptions behind mechanics that are not 100% clear all of the time
regal agate
simc has dfa-evi seperat you may just missed that
royal laurel
and it depends on bugs that we don't even know about right now
which I guarantee there are hundreds
crimson pawn
i just wonder how good cinidaria really is in comparison to bracers.
at the moment bracers would be a 17k dps increase, but if cinidaria always deals like atleast 50% more dmg?
regal agate
the efficiency of the lego comes down to how long your riad group stays within the active phase.
its not bad on add fights becouse you get the damage amp alot when they spawn
crimson pawn
its not only how long the group stayed in the active phase (which was for longer then simc, yes) but also how much dps i have in the active phase, which is alot more too.
regal agate
ye its both, the burst aswell as the duration
thats also why dh's like the belt so mutch, their high burst phase gehts even stronger
long field
What's the current status of the APL for DFA and MFD?
Really what level of confidence do you have in them?
long field
Yeah that's kinda why I'm wondering
I feel like there's a lot of discussion about how MFD is superior to DFA
but in practice all the top parses are using DFA, and I'm wondering what the reason for this is
Could just be fight styles being more suited for DFA burst but I feel like for something like Goroth there would be some number of good MFD parses
long field
DFA is simming higher than MFD at least for me normally
past token
results will also depend on what difficulty you are raiding on. I'm soaking duty on mythic so I end up running around quite frequently
long field
It's more top parses versus sim results
past token
ahh gotcha
long field
and the discrepancy there
theoretically if MFD has a higher cap than DFA we would see top parses with these talents
so I'm wondering if it's a case of people not playing with MFD
past token
there is a parse in the top 20 utilizing the MFD build on heroic goroth, so it may just be popularity / preference
similarly with mythic
regal agate
mdf is the stronger talent if you are able to abuse the reset
past token
for sure
long field
I get that but is that just a single reset in a fight?
like what is the weight of a reset vs the aoe from DFA
long field
and on pulls where ads die incredibly quickly how often is that pushed intot he favor of DFA
there are MFD parses doing well on Goroth that is probably the closest to a patchwerk fight
but like not to the same degree I would expect
past token
DFA's aoe effect isn't as strong as it may seem at first glance
We should move this conversation over to #subtlety i think @long field, we're not talking about sim use anymore
long field
I dunno if this is the place to post this so let me know if I should go to subtlety
but the APL opener posted by Fuu (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/124169701881282560/332629783613538305/apl_opener.png) seems to be abusing the Vanish bug that got fixed
without that how much would the opener change?
crude narwhal
im looking to sim a subtle shadowruby pendant of the quickblade to see if it is better than my neck but I cant seem to find the simcraft string for it. anyone know how to format the string to get it to work. with 10/10 obliterum
boreal patrol
@long field where do see it abuse some fixed bug? 😕
long field
The vanish bug got fixed very recently apparently
boreal patrol
it's just doing Vanish->SS?
long field
I assume that's because Vanish > SS keeps you in stealth currently
so it's currently Vanish > SS > DFA
all buffed by stealth
whereas now the SS would consume the Vanish
may be better to Vanish the DFA?
boreal patrol
youc an use DfA out of stealth
long field
Yeah but would it not be better to buff the DFA with vanish vs the SS?
long field
Hmm I guess, does the Nightstalker buff not carry over to the Eviscerate portion of DFA?
long field
Ahh okay, I just assumed it was vanishing then to abuse the bug
but it may be correct to vanish there even without the bug
minor moon
so...I am using the latest nightly build, but i seem to have bugs simming sub t20 and outlaw t20. It's recommending haste from 5th to first place with a giant gap all of a sudden (thats possible..)
But sub is illogical. WHen i am simming t20 gloomblade, it's higher then WM with shoulders and insignia...but it says I need more vers, much more....and if I give it more vers, it's not going down in the scaling yet the damage goes down extremely fast
regal agate
latest nightly should be fine (make sure you have the latest one)
minor moon
there I am, thinking I got the latest, but there was a new one yesterday. will sim again and clearify
regal agate
well the version before had a wrong condition for vanish (i made a pin for it in #subtlety), newest one should be fine
long field
Was there any attempt to write an APL that only used DFA with finality buff?
regal agate
not rly
i tryed to align dfa->symbols+shd if you have finality but it was a damage loss
long field
Same
I'll be honest though my changes were pretty shit
I was just not using evis if Symbols was coming up and only using DFA with the buff
I'm gonna try and mess with it
regal agate
those where my latest 2 thesis i tested:
first one was backstabing to not waste energy and potentialy go from 5 to 6 cp before using dfa while not shifting dfa + dance outside of the symbols window
secound one was to use dfa->symbols + dance when symbols cd is close enough to not lose uptime and finality evi is up.
both showed a damage loss
long field
Haha, that was the other thing I was gonna test
seems like a really significant DPS loss
at least with the APL I'm testing vs the default APL
I assume the edits I've made aren't the best way to do it
willow pecan
hmm, i got a request concerning Sin 4p
could someone play with the APL to test how does this perform?:
Garrote at 3-4CP -> finisher (instead of mut at 3CP)
unless garrote is empowered by subterfuge
willow pecan
almost 3 here
but i've been playing a bit like that
and honestly, it feels like it works very well
you get a lot more finishers
but need to prove it with a sim
long field
Is there a way to force a character template on raidbots?
I'm at work atm so don't have access to simc
regal agate
he means a gear profile likely. and yes you can use the gear profile from a sample profile
you likely need to remove some s from wrists -> wrist for example
long field
More if I could get it to use one without having the profile
It's not a big deal I'm headed home soon
willow pecan
using garrote just makes a lot more sense
20 energy for 1-2CP
instead of 55 energy for a good chance of wasting 1-2CP.
the question is, how much damage does mutilate does itself + the DP it applies
from my expirence, it also allowed me to usually get an extra envenom during KB or TB (without really pooling a lot ahead of time)
willow pecan
(btw, River said he had tested this yesterady and found the results gave lower dps. but i still believe this needs some further research)
urban saffron
Can someone explain to me why going from 171% mastery to 158% ---going from 2pc old set to 4pc new set....my dps goes through the shitter when i respec to subterfuge ---914>>921.....My legendaries are garbage
dense herald
Well. You lost a metric ton of mastery for starters.
urban saffron
I think 4pc might suck dong if you don't have shoulders/bracers/boots
vagrant quail
How can i do a sim with the bot replacing relics ?
the -ci works for all slots but i dont know how to do it for relics... anyone know ?
charred bluff
how does raidbots sim cinidaria
split sorrel
same as simc 👼
long field
@vagrant quail just use the website: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/relic
charred bluff
@split sorrel 🐍
split sorrel
😛
charred bluff
you know what i meant, i looked at the settings anyway cbf dling simc and custom doing hp and raid dps stuff
pre sure gloves are better (:
polar grotto
any1 got pawn string for sub ?
rustic abyss
@thomas, Get your Personal string
maiden cargo
Hey there is there Andy legendary combo which is up Go Date for sub?
slim locust
it would be nice if, as a patron, my entire Top Gear sim didn't get reset when someone a patron level above me queued up and put me in a queue line
really sucks when it's at like 90% after 1,200,000 iterations
feral crystal
as much as that sucks, probably best to let the raidbots crew know
feral crystal
does anyone know the options to alter how many people in your raid have the cinders trinket?
regal agate
top gear sims all combinations that can go up rly high
severe valley
Hi Rogues,
does anybody know if simcraft line up the bracers legendaries with the "shadow blades"-relics? My sim says that the eviscerate-relics Would ne better, nur guides (stjern, riff) says no.
civic cradle
yeah shadow blade relics are bis if you're using wrists
calm sinew
Besides spitting out a Pawn string to know your stat values, does SimCraft also tell you somehow what goals to aim for? Like 140% mastery, or 30% crit, or anything like that?
novel lava
no, because that wouldn't make any sense
the "goal" simcraft gives you is to aim for the stat with the highest scale factor
finite thunder
and we dont have breakpoints
solemn anvil
Where in the Sim can I adjust the Infernal Cinders Crit buff
severe epoch
I have an idea.
If the next finisher is DA and this finisher is eviscerate.
Then cancel the finality_eviscerate and execute this eviscerate.
But I don't know how to build this in the APL, can someone help me?
The purpose is increase the finality_DA chance, I just want to know it is a DPS increase or not.
bold dome
next knot
Question for plotting stats; what is the stat delta and how does it work? Why does it track from -10k to +10k, is this relative to your current stat values? I'm just confused how you can have negative stat values.
Or is there a website or someplace I can start researching the more complex parts of SimC on my own?
eager badge
What's the file "simc-725-02-nightly-osx-x86-0727f3c56.dmg" good for? I am used to do sims with " SimcSetup-725-02-Win64.exe etc.". Can s/o explain plz?
reef ivy
hmm top gear for raidbots does not work for me i keep swapping to blue gear (im 920ilvl) and it says the 805 blue gear is better lol?
anyone know why?
rustic abyss
@eager badge , the other File is for Apple pcs
eager badge
@rustic abyss thank you 😉
plucky mural
@Theexile#4344 plotting negatives are just showing reduction of stat. Not a big deal. The -10 to +10 is defined by the steps you choose.
I look at 1k stat increments 20. So 10k left and 10k right. you can increase or decrease the step and adjust number of intervals. But my sim crashed when set much higher.
compact viper
!sim
plucky mural
@regal agate this is the typ of graph i was hoping to see using the stat weight plots. Really neat to look at. Unreasonable at this scale tho, but still curves.
split sorrel
@plucky mural it's not perfect tho, since you interact with one stat only at a time
take a look at CombinX 4d plots, the .py scripts to run is easy to use, and it let you see what the distribution looks like at any budget
plucky mural
@split sorrel will do thanks.
willow pecan
Aethys, any plans to work on assassination ever again? 😛
split sorrel
I'm not the only TCer, I might have a look at for Fallen Avatar prog tho.
willow pecan
you're their boss though (j/k)
cerulean junco
since there are different fight types (patchwerk, cleave, priority, aoe) would apls for classes be able to adapt to speficic boss profiles?
like adding downtimes / dps debuffs or intermission phases
or do you need to modify every apl for every specc to achieve that
boreal patrol
depends
and ideal APL can always assess the current situation correctly and handle appropriately
the idea of simc APLs thus is to work with all fight styles, that does however not mean that the conditions for all of them are modeled perfectly
cerulean junco
ya, but apls are based on speccs, so you would need a mage_frost_goroth_apl and mage_frost_sisters_apl etc?
cerulean junco
current apls differantiate and take decisions based of number of targets for example
but there is no way to simulate kiljaedens flight phase, or the downtime of a soul bomb at maidens
willow pecan
i don't think simC was written to simulate actual encounters, but mostly a rotation that abides a set of conditions.
Ask Mr Robots simulations do try to simulate encounters afaik (not sure if how successfully though)
boreal patrol
simc cannot model exact boss mechanics (that would be an enormous effort), but raid events are a thing and you can make the APL adapt
e.g. you can model downtimes with movement and prepare
cerulean junco
that could answer questions like "best talent setup" for speficic bosses. and yes, obviously a huge project
boreal patrol
in simc, raid events are like a separate "Boss APL" that models the fight mechanics, you can still use the same APLs for each spec and, if they're good, they'll adapt correctly
cerulean junco
very interesting, didnt thought is able of such a modularity.
pure condor
thats what happens when you change fightstyle from patchwerk to hecticaddcleave
if you run a sim with hecticaddcleave and look at the results it even lists the exact raidevents under the graphic
bacically just have to understand the syntax and then you can adjust the fight conditions in simc to actual raidfights (with some simplifications obv)
thats what i mean @cerulean junco
plucky mural
Do APL's have a special section for the Opener? (Sin) or are they just following standard rule sets like Maintain Garrote? Cause this is a bit wonky.
regal agate
apl's dont have a special section for opener
hard coded opener are not good as they cant adjust to certain situations
plucky mural
ok
regal agate
you can add one if you want to test sth
plucky mural
so you might have to embed if t<20 or something for open coniditionals, then shit gets messy
regal agate
conditions are fine if used right
if you want to hard code a opener just add it to the apl and test it
plucky mural
ok. my code skills stopped at C++. But ill mess around with it.
regal agate
its not as complex as c++ , also you can take a look at the apl wiki
mortal oasis
Are sims not working correctly with sub shoulders?
plucky mural
I saw a few numbers documented as the default stat step for standard stat weights.
In one place it shows 1333 +stat. in another i saw 300+.
are either of these correct?
plucky mural
@lofty kiln thx
split sorrel
@plucky mural there are a lot of things to improve in Assa APL 😉
plucky mural
trying to help notter work through it. but not a code nerd. so it takes me a min to understand it.
willow pecan
I am a programmer, but even then, the APL code gives me a headache XD
i wish there was some better IDE to work with for it then just a text document.
kinda have a busy period right now between raids/gf/work otherwise i'd try my luck with it as well
finite thunder
GF 🤔 , right..... @willow pecan
willow pecan
yeah, and she doesn't approve of me spending too much time on discord 😅
pure condor
fuu do you really think hard coded openers are that bad?
considering that most sims are patchwork with 1 boss anyways
regal agate
yes
i give you an example
you code the sub opener:
ss->nb->shd->ss->ss->evi->ss->vanish->ss->dfa
pure condor
im not talking sequence tho
should obv still consider procs
maybe i understood it wrong then
regal agate
a hard coded opener means
you say use this first
this secound
this 3rd
every time regardless of circumstances
pure condor
ye i guess i understood his question about "special section for openers" + "embed if t<20 or something for conditions" as some sort of call list for action.opener or something still with normal apl conditions instead of strict sequence
maybe i missunderstood
regal agate
you can just make a sequence for the opener
you dont need conditions specific for the opener, you can just adjust the standard conditions for it
else you might end up doing stuff multiple times
pure condor
ye thats what i meant when i asked if you really think opener calllists are bad
im aware that they can be (and mostly are) redundant and "unclean"
didnt mean some sort of strict sequence that ignores procs
maiden cargo
Are there any race sims for rogues? Specifically sub
obsidian raven
Last Time someone made that race sim, gnome was #1 so we decided to never check again.
crimson hinge
truth hits hard
i do think their could be value in adding an entirely separate sequence per spec in simc of current opener---obviously not part of the actual sim, but could be part of the results page given the spec--like an extra tab
merry pike
hello is it possible to run the all talent sim script in raid bots
merry pike
ye i get error
maiden cargo
I would say just run it during your sleep in simc
maiden cargo
Damn how
cursive dock
can i add target error 0.05% function from /simc input?
my desktop so bad ..use simc desktop lagging much..it would be nice if i could add target ..can just copy paste into raidbot
boreal patrol
target_error=0.05
remember raidbots will abort your simulation if it's running too long though
maiden cargo
Even if he buys the special thing?
is there another simulation that can tell you best in bags apart from ask mr robot?
odd sedge
who handles simc default profiles? why is T20 default using 3 evis relics? can it only use tos relics?
strong rune
I can deal with default profile regeneration.
I don't remember the rules for T20 default versus T20_Vanilla
maiden cargo
!trinket
boreal patrol
yes, default profiles are ToS gear only or last Tier at same difficulty, all unforged
arctic mirage
If I sim t20-4pc > 2pc-2pc for sub with all tier pieces being equal ilvl, does that mean Im doing something wrong? :S
late dragon
Does anybody know where Splinters of Agronox sims at? I just got a 930 socketed one from chest. Thinking for all specs.
!trinket
sly yoke
its comparable to a 915 vial based on logs
the proc is relatively weak but thats a lot of agi
shrewd citrus
is T19>T20 for ass?
maiden cargo
When I try to impoort my character in SimulationCraft, it says failed and then mentions something about adding my own API key... Where do I get one of those?
version 720 should still work right?
maiden cargo
Thats odd
Did you import it in simc add on tab
No. I tried the Import and Battle.net options.
It looks like it's using the eu.battle.net site to search it.
May have a conflict then
Make sure you are using the latest version and install simc add on for wow
Makes everything easier
I'm probably not using the latest version. It's 720.
Ah yeah
Get the nightly build
Alright. Time for another compile then. 😛 I'll try that tomorrow.
cold shore
@maiden cargo For SnD Build, do you recommend Mark of Claw or stick to Hidden Satyr?
maiden cargo
Seems a compile of 725 worked.
Although it imports from the old armory still, so my gear is not updated.
maiden cargo
So the import still does not work right. It's back to throwing me the previous error. :(
Is the ingame addon really the only reliable way to get simmed?
maiden cargo
!guide
regal agate
you can use raidbots
normal torrent
How was engine simmed on the ravenholdt website for sub? was a set uptime used or was it made random
normal torrent
ok cool
maiden cargo
Raidbots have wait time though.
regal agate
raidbots is simc in the cloud
maiden cargo
I just thought that when it had a local client that would be faster and better.
regal agate
you can download simc nightly thats the local client or build it from source from git
plucky mural
@maiden cargo either download Simc "Nightly" when you want to do a series of sims, or just paste your /simc strings into Raidbots advanced, then afk.
Raidbots is more user friendly for the gear compare for things you dont currently own. and relic swaps.
maiden cargo
Yeah. I guess so.
maiden cargo
Btw, No nightly build for Linux. I guess that requires med to just compile it from github.
regal agate
yes there is a "how to" in the pins
thorn pivot
I am attempting to sim a relic prior to equipping it. Do i need to edit the relic_id and the gem_id or just the gem id? I edited just the gem_id and it did pick up the trait properly but I am unsure if it picked up the ilvl difference. The one I have in there now is a 930 Gushing wound, and I am attempting to sim a 915 Master asassin in its place.
here's the string I am working with. main_hand=,id=128870,bonus_id=741,relic_id=3562:1497:3528/3562:1502:3336/3562:1512:3337,gem_id=147110/147102/151189/0
regal agate
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/relic
you can show the simc imput also(on the site) and copy the lines to your simc profile.
thorn pine
Is there a way to sim Infernal Cinders with 100% crit on the ability?
sly leaf
How do i go about using ravenholdt in multi target, when is it better to shuriken or single target
latent thorn
!trinkets
violet lantern
anyone know if the nightly build of simc 725-02 is bugged? im not getting a pawn strings/statweights on my simc (i enabled scaling)
fallen raptor
when simulating AoE, do I put 5-man heroic targets?
plucky mural
@fallen raptor I typically use "HecticAddCleave" will give you overall dps, and boss effective dps
raw pollen
why would raidbots have me go 2+2 and then recommend subt? option for both 4pc was included (crown/boots)
gaunt gale
garrote damage is still pretty good? also #assassination probably a more appropirate place
split lintel
Is the new simcraft simming the crit chance trinket from BT correctly?
regal agate
should do
vapid grotto
how reliable are the sims coming from raidbots.com? (might be in the wrong section if so, sorry)
gaunt gale
@vapid grotto they use simc as their backend, so exactly as reliable as that.
plucky mural
hallo,
Id love to get a combatlog .txt export coming out of the Simc program. I want to upload it to a private warcraft logs, so I can see what it is doing in timeline format with filters.
Single iteration would be fine.
willow pecan
@plucky mural check this
https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/Output
plucky mural
woot.
that being said, it will be neat to see how good/bad the APL play looks in warcraft logs format.
plucky mural
Log format was not that desireable. was nice to look at 1 iteration logs from Simc tho.
@split sorrel this looks great btw. Ill try to figure it out.
real torrent
is 390k out of a simmed 576k really bad?
maiden cargo
is there a way in simulationcraft to see the cast timeline of one of the sims?
o, you were just talking abou tthat above. will check out this log format
yeah that format is gnarly, not so helpful
plucky mural
@Saral#0774 the single iteration Simc is not horrible. you can click on individual skills and see their peaks and values.
sage lotus
Is it normal that Crit > Mastery in simming when I got 14k Crit and 12k Mastery? Playing Sub. Seems weird that I should get even more Crit now.
willow pecan
@manic pulsar @reef canyon hey, i've tried running an AMR sim again, to check if there have been any updates
but i see there are still many issues with assassination T20 / subterfuge / Legendary shoulders
several issues:
When vanishing mid-fight:
- It does not refrash garrote, in order to get a subterfuged empowered garrote (garrote in the first 3 seconds after breaking stealth)
- There is no Toxic Blade buff up before / TB is not ready to use
- It has 0 Combo Points + first ability used is Kingsbane
- It fits only 2 envenoms during Mantle 6 seconds crit buff
I would say this is almost the most unoptimal way to use vanish
Swol, the same issues are happening during the opener, but you've mentioned the opener is hard-coded.
But from looking it this mid-fight, it seems like this needs some further tuning.
missing on the subterfuged garrote / 3 envenoms / TB buff is a big loss.
distant jungle
@willow pecan When I use Vanish mid fight, I always use it for Rupture, that is correct right?
Runnig Nightstalker
willow pecan
This is the full report in case you want to check yourself.
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/21b2613972d34ef8b5cc2e4eeb108d0b
manic pulsar
@willow pecan Yeah, I certainly intended to always use a Garrote, but I messed up the condition. Here are some sims with modifications to the rotation. First is original default. Second is default edited to always use a garrote during subterfuge. Third is a modification to always get 3 envenom during the mantle buff (had to pool a little energy to ensure that). Fourth is trying to sync mantle with Toxic Blade. Fifth goes back to default, but with garrote use and vanish when at high CP, or when you can use KB, or when you can refresh Garrote. DPS respectively:
1083.2k, http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/fce5b9040e184e9abccb7c7a14ced75a
1099.1k, http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/21e156063fe84ce7868823e48960bebf
1091.3k, http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/fdbb88e2589542eba94fa60f0bda14d6
1077.4k, http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/1727f56ade0d4972bce43bfea5f57ef5
1102.0k, http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/a03f1e601f7a4018b2fbca88dc667d22
Sync'ing with Toxic Blade isn't working that well because the fight length variance for a 4.5 minute fight is causing the delay of vanish by doing that is sometimes resulting in a vanish getting clipped at the end of the fight. When I change the fight length to be shorter, like 210 seconds, the difference between sync'ing toxic blade and not is just about zero. Interestingly, pooling energy to ensure 6 abilities get used in every mantle buff isn't ending up as an average DPS increase compared to being "greedier" and sometimes only getting 5, but always getting max vanish uses.
In a "real" raid situation, the player would need to gauge if the fight length is such that they "might" get an extra vanish very near the end of the fight or not, and decide what to do based on that.
thanks for pointing that stuff out.
Assassination rotation tweaks never seem to really end 😉
willow pecan
thanks for the answer :)
yeah, since 7.2.5 with Toxic Blade it really put a lot more complexity on simulations
also, i'd like to point out, the way i play, i use Garrote on 3-4CP, regardless of garrote duration
I can't say for sure if it's a dps gain or loss, since the sims are not optimized right now
And i wonder if you're gonna implement any of the above tests into the default assassination rotation? @manic pulsar
The 4th sim
is kinda weird...
Because instead of holding TB until Vanish was ready, it held vanish until TB and everything else was ready
Time
111.202 - Casts TB (vanish should have been ready in 15 seconds)
141.460 - Casts TB (vanish ready - doesn't use it)
166.490 - Casts TB and then Vanish
so i'm not sure what is the condition you've used, but it should apply to holding TB instead of Vanish @manic pulsar
random veldt
🤔 holding vanish
manic pulsar
Yeah I could try to tweak it more - I'll play around with it.
plucky mural
Yay sin conv.
random veldt
Make AMR sim correctly and I'll stop bashing it 🙃
manic pulsar
what do you mean by "correctly" ?
random veldt
Nice to see someone actually wants to put time into assassination APL
Correctly as in.. not holding vanish 🤔
plucky mural
neat
manic pulsar
why bash an entire simulation project because of APL tweaks? That's just weird.
random veldt
Because from what I've heard AMR hasn't been accurate in years.
So it's not just apl tweaks 😉
manic pulsar
Our simulator hasn't existed for years. It's only been available for legion.
random veldt
🤔 now I'm just confused
plucky mural
are these values between simc and amr substantially different, or is there no lag/error assumed by player in simc?
manic pulsar
how detailed an answer would you like?
manic pulsar
@willow pecan ok, here's a better test for sync'ing toxic blade:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/366f13858be247f1aad2e454b0fe3c07
it just holds toxic blade so the debuff will be up during mantle
manic pulsar
in a nutshell: the lag/reaction time is similar between the two simulators, but, we have this concept of "anticipation time" that simc does not have
since real players have to pick their action a bit ahead of time
and then "press the button" during the spell queue
you can use ".react" in simc apls to handle some of that, but, SimC will always perfectly react to power gains
plucky mural
sure. I know the vanish is coming up so there is little delay for Vanish Env Mut Env Mut Env. but proc based things will be more delay like Blunderbuss
willow pecan
looking over it now
plucky mural
I assume the AMR client has an import tool from ingame, without relying on armory update
this filter is fantastic btw.
limited to cast success is nice
manic pulsar
Yeah, we tried to mimic the actual events you see in combat logs, the hope being that down the line we can make a tool to automatically compare to a real log
willow pecan
btw, asking in noobe's name
is it possible to export a combat log from AMR in a format that works with WarcraftLogs?
manic pulsar
@willow pecan to answer one of your questions, yes, I'm going to incorporate these improvements into the default, for sure.
willow pecan
great
manic pulsar
You mean do a simulation and then put the sim result into WCL?
manic pulsar
I hadn't really thought of that - I'm not sure we generate all the information for a complete combat log
plucky mural
simc has a 1 iteration output, but a custom format.
I dont really care if the sims are perfect, but comma delimited rotations are hard to scrutinize. I prefer being able to see buff alingment windows. etc.
manic pulsar
Yeah, a visual way to look at that would be nice
willow pecan
So, for the sim where you hold TB, i think another little improvement can be made here:
it casts kingsbane during the mantle window, while it could just hold vanish by 3 seconds...
to cast it before
this is getting a bit complex, cause holding vanish is usually bad
manic pulsar
Yeah, I thought about that... but the initial hit of Kingsbane(MH + OH) hits harder than envenom, so I'm not sure what the benefit is of not using it during mantle?
plucky mural
I dont hate the vanish env garrote kb env, if the alignment came that way, . i'd like to see the opener more similar to expection, and just verify that KB is stacking properly throughout the fight with proper pool to KB Env, and Tb Env mut mut env
willow pecan
well, actually that's something that a sim can prove if it's better or worst :P
i usually just KB/TB before vanish
maybe i'm the one at fault
plucky mural
just get more pbomb and you are fine
manic pulsar
Yeah, my thinking (not 100% tested yet) was that, from an average damage perspective, TB, KB initial hit, and Envenom are all of similar power. As long as you get 3 of any of those things during mantle, that will be optimal.
although if you're going to TB right around vanish anyway, makes sense to use it right before
and... those of us who just can't see to get the mantle, well, we just don't care and hate the rest of you.
willow pecan
by that logic, won't it be better to use TB to break stealth?
haha, do you actually play and program the apl for rogue only?
or for all the specs?
willow pecan
how X_X
i can barely keep up with what's best for my own spec
manic pulsar
This is my job - I work on the website all day every day.
and once you've made a rotation for all the specs... you start to see a lot of patterns, and it gets easier.
willow pecan
except assassination? 😛
manic pulsar
well, assassination has always been a difficult rotation to tweak
willow pecan
btw, i wonder what the result be if you'll change garrote to be used on 3-4CP regardless of debuff duration
except if it's an empowered garrote
manic pulsar
i'm sure that my exsang rotation needs work, it's "on the list" to improve
plucky mural
eww. separate apl for vigor vs ds. gl with that.
willow pecan
i mean, even if DS sims higher i wouldn't play with it XD
plucky mural
I really hoped the Vig/DS ring would synergize well.
like NS/6cp/Rupture/Exang etc. with vigor vendetta snap.
willow pecan
i thought that TB/anticipation would be good...
willow pecan
@manic pulsar this is the second vanish
i'm not sure if it's actually a loss or not though to use them during the 6 seconds or before
also i usually vendetta right before vanish for the energy
while this used vendetta 9 seconds before
which agian, not sure if it's a loss or gain
either way i don't think it's would be a major influance on result
manic pulsar
yeah, that will depend on fight length mostly, and your items. delaying vendetta when you have CoF usually doesn't simulate well on average
I've been trying out using garrote at 3/4 CP
with the set bonus
haven't been able to get it to increase DPS eyt
willow pecan
it sims lower with what River tried with SimC as well.
but i think it's kinda of a nuanced thing.
since, for exmaple, if i have 1 second remaining on TB buff, and 4CP
i will not garrote, since i won't be able to envenom during TB.
but if i am at 3CP, i will garrote, since i'm not gonna be able to use a finisher anyway.
so like.. i'm not sure how much effort you actually wanna put into this 😅
manic pulsar
heh, well, it's good to test it
since using a bunch of GCD's on garrote for CP could have an affect on gearing strategy
if it were actually a gain
willow pecan
also keep in mind, that in the opener, i do overwrite a subterfuged garrote to extend it
manic pulsar
yeah, i used to have that in the opener - but I took it out because I wasn't seeing a gain from it, although I'm not sure I specifically tested it again with the set bonus, should probably do that.
plucky mural
would it be wise to compare dps gains with pb excluded?
willow pecan
i'm really intrested to check what gearing strategy AMR will suggest to me once you update it with these changes
plucky mural
or is the Tb/Vendetta effect on PB substantial maybe.
willow pecan
doesn't rally matter when you run many iterations
manic pulsar
we have our super-fancy new "adaptive" gearing strategy coming out next week too for rogues.
.5% is margin of error
willow pecan
what does that mean? 😄
manic pulsar
Well, the difficulty that legion has introduced with all these legendary items
is that they can significantly change what stats are optimal
so to actually figure out which legendary items to use...
you have to know the optimal stats for every legendary/set bonus combo - and compare optimized sets of gear for each combo
using just one gearing strategy based on only one setup isn't going to give you the answer you want
So, we developed a method that discovers and simulates gearing strategies for many of the relevant combos that change your desired stats - and then the website uses all of those to find the best gear.
and it can actually pick your legendary items for you reliably, which hasn't been working so well on AMR up to this point
We have a test case on the site right now for frost mages - and it works really well. Under the hood, we can predict simulated DPS for any combo of talents, legendary items, set bonuses, etc instantly without actually simulating it.
willow pecan
that sounds cool, also sounds like hell to program a rotation for each legendary
manic pulsar
Of course, there is a margin of error.. around 1% or so.
So, for instance, taking assassination as an example
there are at least two legendary combos that simulate to within 1% DPS of each other
trying to remember... I think it's crown+boots and mantle+boots
So the optimizer can't really tell you which one is best. It can just tell you that one of those is best, and then you'd still have to do your own sims if you wanted that last 1% theoretical gain.
willow pecan
I'm looking forward to trying that out :)
though i suspect with assassination mantle/bracers is still gonna beat those 😄
manic pulsar
Yeah, probably - couldn't remember the test case off the top of my head
sometimes we do tests with weird talents and stuff, to try to trip up the system
willow pecan
are the changes you've made already live, or you're waiting to do more tests?
i'm just wondering what gearing strategy it would suggest to me now
manic pulsar
I need to talk to our other dev, then I can put it live. Can't remember if site is in a state right now where i can update stuff without messing it up.
but you can use the rotation from the example sim
to make a gearing strategy
We won't have an updated gearing strategy based on it until next week.
willow pecan
oh, i thought changing the rotation is enough to produce different results
manic pulsar
So, making just one gearing strategy takes about 30 mins to an hour on a good computer.
you could make one for your current gear pretty easy - I can find a link to the how-to
willow pecan
oh, i know how to
plucky mural
I really was intrigued by the chinese guy with 3ma + boots no cof doing exang.
45% crit Ep.
willow pecan
i just wanted to test it with the changes you've made compared to what it is right now
manic pulsar
ah, yeah. Unfortunately the gearing strategies have to do so many sims that we can't instantly update them.
plucky mural
i get that for sure.
willow pecan
Noobe, ask him if you can test changing your stats dynamically or whatever it is you wanted
plucky mural
I still believe in 1/3sim 1/3 log 1/3 experience.
oh the 4d plot Aethys was doing.
really needs the APL to be tied down, but these are fantastic.
that graph can rotate in browser.
I like stat weights, for + then next 1300 stat. but really like seeing the perfect distribuition for 2ndary balance.
for instance.
Outlaw scales SS and BTE based on crit.
I went on ptr and did a 55% -95% (with shark) crit build. was easy enough to do. but I wasnt able to sim that well enough to see if it was a real thing.
anyway. this was a neat way to ignore shoulders for people that dont have them.
manic pulsar
I like the 4D plots, but a lot of our users found them to be kinda hard to understand, so we came up with a 2D representation of results like that, with a chart like this:
plucky mural
I saw that, maybe you linked it before. but Im not sure if I can tell where the curves converge. ie somewhat best.
those look like independant stat curves
manic pulsar
So, what that is
Is we simulated about 1000 data points for the given gear setup, then ran those results through various machine learning algorithms and found the best-fitting polynomial to predict the results. Then, we create a data point for a uniform grid of stat combinations at the given item level. This shows which combinations of stats simulate to the highest DPS.
willow pecan
@plucky mural i think it means the right most is the best (if i understood your question)
manic pulsar
It's part of our whole "stat weights are dead" campaign 😉
plucky mural
O, the right most combination is the same value
willow pecan
yeah
i'm not sure what can we actually do with this data though, considering it's very hard to achieve this kinda of thing through gear in game
plucky mural
can I create that chart from My gear My spec, your APL?
manic pulsar
yes
plucky mural
great
manic pulsar
Well, this data is just visually showing you what stats are good. Our optimizer uses the predictive function to pick the best gear from the gear available to you. It picks the highest simulating set possible.
plucky mural
Im glad to see 4k crit 2k haste 15.8k Mastery 4k V
I want to see the gearing target.
not a small increment of gear shift like weights.
manic pulsar
Our whole idea, is that we spend a ton of time making the simulator simulate what we want - then just let math find the gear that simulates highest. (Which is probably why TC'ers don't like us, no one likes robots taking their jobs.)
plucky mural
sounds good to me, as long as the APL is close.
my RTB crit stack would just require BTE on cd. and Uptime on PS 2p to run
manic pulsar
the point of that graph is to help explain why the optimizer does what it does. It was confusing our users a ton when sometimes it would get more crit, sometimes less, etc.
willow pecan
i see
willow pecan
oh man i'm running a 3 hour simulation for gear? :X
and that's with selecting 8 cores.
rip pc. (got i7-7700k)
manic pulsar
Yeah, and this data-driven approach is really good at finding unexpectedly good gear combos that we might not have thought of, which is interesting to me, as a simulation junky
that estimate is realllllly conservative
probably won't take that long
my i7-6700k does rogue in about 30 mins
plucky mural
I do floodplain water modeling, so there is a bit of respect yet awareness about sim results.
manic pulsar
just note that the reporting server has been having problems - so the status of your sim might not update, but it's still running
we restarted it... going to rewrite it next week
plucky mural
saw that. if you hit refresh early fine?
willow pecan
I'm just gonna run the gearing strategy now, and then again after the changes are live, and see if there's a difference
manic pulsar
cool
plucky mural
does best in bag run from bank?
regal agate
raidbots has also a similar feature
😉
@manic pulsar curious if you guys have all rogue bugs in askmr?
plucky mural
he's talking about vanish bug
regal agate
top gear from raidbots
plucky mural
etc
regal agate
willow pecan
but that just simulated everything in your bag
he was talking simulating every possible thing
plucky mural
does it pick from your bag list neat
willow pecan
if i understood him
plucky mural
same thing.
willow pecan
how is "in bags" and "Everything" the same :S
regal agate
"Top Gear makes it easy to select multiple pieces of gear and automatically try all combinations of them to find the best for your character."
manic pulsar
So, to actually simulate every combination of gear in your bags would be impossible
You can manually pick some combinations of gear to try
that's what raidbots lets you do
Best in Bags (tm) uses our gearing strategies to estimate the value of every single item in your bag instantly
and pick the best one
plucky mural
ok. so it creates stat weights, and does a self pawn shuffle
ignoring legendaries and trinkets
manic pulsar
well, we create a predictive model from simulation results, and use that to then score all the billions of gear combinations instantly
even if you had just 3 relevant items in every gear slot
and you could simulate each set in 1 second
it would take over a month to simulate every combination of items
willow pecan
@plucky mural keep in mind best in bags is a permium feature of AMR, not free
regal agate
@willow pecan top gear has also some limitations if you are not a donator 😉
manic pulsar
so, best in bags and top gear are fundamentally different. We accept a small margin of error to examine every combination. top gear is a convenience layer to set up manual simulations. If you just want to pick specific gear combinations from your bags to simulate, you can do that for free on AMR.
We're going to beef up the UI on that to make it easier
but if you import your character from the addon, on the simulation page, you can do a "batch sim"
and pick gear in your bags
@regal agate I don't have the vanish bug in the simulator. And I also don't have the weaponmaster/DFA bug in, but I'll add that one if they don't fix it soon.
plucky mural
it's fine. not a huge concern. I shuffle gear based on stat weights.
manic pulsar
the vanish bug I'm choosing to ignore
regal agate
dfa talent spec bases on a (maybe discussable) bug
willow pecan
considering that almost all of sub players do use the DfA bug, it's probably bast to implement it
since it so common
manic pulsar
well, the bug I'm talking about is where weaponmaster makes the DFA evis not happen
willow pecan
oh
manic pulsar
which one are you talking about?
willow pecan
i thought you meant using shadow dance before the animation is over
manic pulsar
oh, yeah that's in the simulator
because it's hackd
and not that hard to do
makes a noticeable difference in DPS, even on average
regal agate
using off gcd ability's durig dfa is likely not interndet and can be seen as bug
wm is buggy as well with dfa(not hit if first hit gets a proc)
vanish bug is a bug also
the shd bug cant be reproduced reliably so its not impactfull
willow pecan
btw fuu, Swol did some tuning to assassination simulation on AMR
seemms pretty solid now (not live yet)
regal agate
nice 😃
willow pecan
at least, with T20/mantle/subterfuge
regal agate
i heared you did for simc aswell?
willow pecan
no, i suck at working with APL. shadowstep is trolling.
i might get more into it, cause i might start working only 2 days a week soon
regal agate
as you want, i prefere making dfa/sub apl 👌
willow pecan
i prefer you not ignoring assassination XD