#Jailor, Vet, and Vigi nerfs

1217 messages · Page 2 of 2 (latest)

wild yarrow
merry pilot
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The idea is that hangman forces you to be careful about who you shoot and not shoot Townies willy-nilly.

What people don’t realize is that having only one bullet also does this because if you shoot a Townie with your only bullet you are nothing but a liability

green cloak
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give me one good reason why secret killers shouldn't be default

spare sable
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secret killers being a base is em fine ig?

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Im just worried about enchanter

merry pilot
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Enchanter’s not the issue

green cloak
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Enchanter alters are fine

spare sable
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?

merry pilot
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The issue is being completely blindsided by Apoc and NKs in All Any

spare sable
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ohhh

green cloak
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and that extra killpower is overshadowed by TKs being hard confirmable

spare sable
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im dumb I thought it was hiding the roles lmao

merry pilot
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No it’s hiding the roles who killed

spare sable
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does it or does it not lol

spare sable
merry pilot
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Coroner would basically be mandatory in Secret Killers All Any

green cloak
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Hidden Roles hides flips

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not Secret Killers

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and yeah Secret Killers would definitely give Coroner use

pale cargo
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I can’t argue rn let me celebrate thanksgiving in peace

merry pilot
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Not just give it use

pale cargo
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Go eat a turkey

merry pilot
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It would be the only thing preventing you from like

green cloak
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I'm not even American

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😭

merry pilot
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My dad doesn’t eat meat and I don’t like turkey

pale cargo
pale cargo
rough cedar
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explaining tos to an american: so imagine a hamburger…

merry pilot
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I’m making a pork shoulder

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But anyway

pale cargo
merry pilot
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Secret Killers would be really bad for AA

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It’d just be like “having a chill time but all of a sudden there’s 3 NKs”

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Or “oops Bers and Pestilence popped”

mild arch
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id rather it be default and maybe disable it for certain lists

merry pilot
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AA will never have modifiers, so a modifier that disables secret killers for AA ain’t happening

pale cargo
merry pilot
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Egotist Townie is specifically for Tuba’s TAA streams

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And not a standard part of the mode

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Nor does it even exist in vanilla

pale cargo
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Hidden killers would make AA unplayable, but at least coroner would do something…

next turtle
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it wouldnt make it unplayable

mild arch
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unplayable is probably an overstatement

pale cargo
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Would make Shroud overpowered lol

rough cedar
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not so much unplayable as it would be very annoying

merry pilot
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Without a role list you need some sort of information about what roles are in play

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Especially when it’s possible to have things that aren’t possible in Ranked like multiple different NKs

pale cargo
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4 town died. Rampage? Coven + ritualist + berserker + NK? In what order? It would make tracking down kills much harder so I suspect people will become MUCH more dependent on TI like investigator and psychic, as it will be much harder to find clever holes in people’s stories.

merry pilot
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And Coroner.

pale cargo
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TI dies? You’re cooked

mild arch
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yeah i would see how it would be very annoying

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although it would be very easy to determine if evils killed x or town killed

rough cedar
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definitely apart of the problem but not the whole problem is just how nk in general has no cap in aa

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nk should really be unique it would make all any alot better

mild arch
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all evils should really be unique

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(minus cursed souls)

merry pilot
dire monolith
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vigi: 2 shots with basic attack, capable of missing like dep

there, problem solved

barren tinsel
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thats just better dep bro

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thats literally just better dep

dire monolith
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dep deals powerful

mild arch
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no?

barren tinsel
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not in btos2

dire monolith
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sheesh then dep is bad

mild arch
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deputy can also miss their shot

mild arch
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you hard clear a player as not evil or kill them and hard confirm your existence

mild arch
dire monolith
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why all non-neutral killing roles were nerfed to basic attack? to help neutrals?

mild arch
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to make basic defense mean more

dire monolith
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(apoc excluded, because they are apoc)

mild arch
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because in vanilla defense dont mean shit

stark birch
dire monolith
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it stops necronomicon, it stops vigi

mild arch
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it only stops other neut killers like sk and shroud

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and vigi and coven attack

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thats it

dire monolith
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which leaves ww and bers

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and conj with dep

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the vigi should work like Sheriff from Goose Goose Duck imo

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where if you misfire, you die IMMIDIATELY

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on spot

mild arch
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(bad)

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hangman is an unneeded mechanic

dire monolith
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if vigi will have only 1 shot with basic attack, then allow him to cancel any abilities that his target used with it

mild arch
dire monolith
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yeah, this is like town pois, but with immediate effect

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it's just there are too many TK roles

mild arch
dire monolith
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vet should have ability to kill only 1 person per night
vigi should be able to act different from dep

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maybe make vigi work in a completely different way:

-give him 2 shots and obligation of reload after shooting

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but not a simple reload

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he has to lock on target before attacking it

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and has a right to cancel that locking

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but ofc he will have to spend a night for relocking

rough cedar
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vigi being 1 shot allows for more conditional 2 shot tks

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if you give vigi 2 shots and keep it how it is maybe with reload then conditional tks would substantially be worse if they only had 2 shots too

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in that case youd need to increase their kp to 3 shots

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and oop now youve got powercreep

barren tinsel
rough cedar
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ok then

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show us how youd do it

barren tinsel
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My idea sucks

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but i do have one

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(make it better trickster and rework trickster)

rough cedar
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tk as a whole needs an overhaul

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no tk (veteran) should have access to theoretically unlimited kp

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and trick is tp

barren tinsel
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nah id make trick ts

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trust

rough cedar
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😭

barren tinsel
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(it becomes a tav sidegrade)

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also i may be stealing 2 ideas from lagspikes and temp

mild arch
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most of my ideas are half stolen anyways

barren tinsel
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aight bet, time to make the worst suggestion in the history of suggestions

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and pair that with an even more ass jailor rework

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or change

rough cedar
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if youre so unconfident about it why are you posting it

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have some self respect bro 😭

barren tinsel
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its good to have feedback and learn

rough cedar
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ik but dont instantly punch down your ideas

mild arch
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every idea won’t be popular but putting it out there is very helpful

rough cedar
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you havent even posted them yet

barren tinsel
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im better at critiquing than making

mild arch
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people won’t beat you down over your idea, and if they are you can report them

dire monolith
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vigi should have lock on target before attacking them
and 1 less shot

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also locking on is not astral, so you can die to jinx, hitting UO which will result in locking fading...

mild arch
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you have to visit them the night before?

dire monolith
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yes

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which does nothing except for giving you lock on

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and you have to confirm attack on next night or cancel lock on

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which still can be cancelled by UOs and etc

turbid sentinel
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You’re not killing anyone until night 3 though

dire monolith
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which is fine

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on n2 you normally don't have leads

turbid sentinel
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You have more than you would think

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They are just very hard to spot without making assumptions

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or knowing context of the logs

merry pilot
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Vigilante is one of those SDG brand name kinda roles

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You shoot the guy

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The guy dies

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No other bullshit
That’s what Vigilante is and has always been

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And that model does work, it just needs to not be better than the ones with frills

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Especially when there’s 4 TKs and you need to make all of them work, having one just be simple in exchange for not having as much kill potential is fine

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(And might be necessary because making 3 unique TK is already hard let alone 4)

pale cargo
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Wait dep isn't powerful????

lilac terrace
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dep's basic

pale cargo
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wow yeah making vigi 1 shot is just the worst thing I've ever then

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let's make Deputy 2.0 except he can misfire now ???

lilac terrace
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All roles in a bucket should be equal in some way

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Like if it's easy to kill an evil, you should only get one shot at it

pale cargo
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Vigi kills 3 evils if you guess perfectly, but if you guess wrong ever 2 town die (the one you guess + urself) so it's high risk high reward kind of thing, perfect

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You get just 1/3 wrong and you kill 2 evils and 2 town best case scenario

lilac terrace
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A single player should not be able to wipe out nearly an entire evil faction

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Vigi/Dep are easy to get kills with, so they shouldn't have more than 1 bullet

pale cargo
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Evils would be REALLY unlucky or skill issue to put themselves in that situation

mild arch
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(a single player shouldnt be able to influence the game THAT much, not even just wiping an evil faction)

pale cargo
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The "3 coven die unavoidably" games you guys point out almost never happen, much more often vigi kills their team

mild arch
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while the former is just as bad

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so uh

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let’s balance vigilante by making it a timebomb

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either explodes on town

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or wins town the game

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(also anyone can fake a deputy missed shot while faking a kill is much harder)

smoky wing
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I like the jailor and vigi nerfs besides the fact that jailor can continue to jail

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dont like the vet one though

mild arch
rough cedar
mild arch
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if they use all 3 executes

smoky wing
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they shouldnt though

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that makes jailor a weird tav

rough cedar
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vigi having 3 shots is balanced cause it shoots town more often then not

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(which is not true at all btw)

smoky wing
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yeah vigi has no reason to be better than pros as TK

merry pilot
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It’s just that there’s more to a role being healthy than technical balance

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Hangman solves Vigilante being “overpowered” by win rate without solving the actual problem with an OP role, which is that it basically decides the game on its own

rough cedar
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but its a pathetically bad way to look at balancing vigi

rough cedar
merry pilot
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If Jailor didn’t exist it would still be “just” a TK

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like yes it’s strong as all hell

mild arch
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(id argue vigilante could be town power with jailor not existing)

merry pilot
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But it doesn’t have anything like day kills, trial manipulation, or whatever the fuck Jailor is doing

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It’s a raw killing role without any funkiness

rough cedar
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jailor is doing pretty much everything

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tp tk ts ti

merry pilot
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Well

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TI is a stretch

mild arch
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best in every alignment

mild arch
merry pilot
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That’s like saying a Prosecutor who’s revealed

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Asking someone’s role in whispers

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Is a TI

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It most certainly isn’t.

rough cedar
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jailor can crack fullclaims out of people and pressure them with the possibility of execution if they dont comply

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id argue that it prevails as a ti

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yes it cant give guilty or innocent checks on people

lament gulch
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I wouldn't call a communicative role a TI but tos doesn't really have a defined group for them

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Not like tol Social class type

rough cedar
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but nailing fullclaims because theres literally no one else who can look into the chat besides you and the jailee id consider to fulfil as a ti

rough cedar
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jailor sheriff real

merry pilot
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Ok

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Wildling is dead

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Prosecutor nabs an evil

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Pros whispers you “claim please”

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Is pros a TI now

rough cedar
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no but the difference there is that wildling nor any role cant see jail chat

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making it extremely safe to do so