Jailor, Vet, and Vigi nerfs

[lilac terrace]

There are more town that should be changed, but these are the 3 main problems imo

Jailor

• Executes: 3 -> 2
• Keeps ability to jail unless you execute a townie.

Veteran

• Day ability: Mark ()
• Can mark as many times as you want in one day. (If you still have a charge)
• Attempting to mark a marked player will unmark them and give your charge back.
• Cannot mark anyone D1.
• Only shoot marked players when you alert.
• Lose all alerts if you kill a town member.

Vigilante

• Shots: 3 -> 1
• No longer is affected by hangman.

[mild arch]

i agree with one of these fully

one not at all

and one partially

[lilac terrace]

Explain?

[mild arch]

I think jailor would be fine if it lost the jailing priviledges if it misfired and one execute

veteran is just bad

no

lookouts hard confirm everyone

[lilac terrace]

What about Jailor loses jail if they exe a townie and vet just lowers alerts to 2

[mild arch]

(veteran is still bad)

[lilac terrace]

(vet straight up cannot be fixed lol)

[vocal tree]

it can

I saw a good rework concept not so long ago

[lilac terrace]

Parceval jumpscare

[vocal tree]

it just needed some fixing

I am always lurking

waiting for someone to mention transporter

[lilac terrace]

Wait what do you not like about vigi?

[mild arch]

vigi is the one i like

[lilac terrace]

Oh

[vocal tree]

Honestly

I dont think we NEED to remove vig bullets

Like a good old reload would prob do the trick

realistically speaking they might be able to get two shots in before they die

[lilac terrace]

I think 3 kills for one person is a bit too much

[spare sable]

so like shoot then reload so you cant shoot consistantly?

[vocal tree]

yeah

[spare sable]

I mean yeah sure

[vocal tree]

its a flintlock pistol last time I checked you cant spray and pray with this kind of gun

[lilac terrace]

"You must reload before you can use your gun again."

[spare sable]

"You lost your gun while shooting and you must find it to shoot again!"

[lilac terrace]

I remember I suggested vet be made into old dep rework

[spare sable]

[lilac terrace]

Fire idea ik

[spare sable]

I thought that was what lagspikes vet did

[vocal tree]

unironically a pretty good idea

old dep rework needed some tweaking

[lilac terrace]

Hold up

[vocal tree]

I mean I have to admit I really like current vet because it fits my playstyle

but I can see why it need changes

[lilac terrace]

Boom now this vet is like old dep rework mixed with vet

[pale cargo]

I'd make Vigi steal bullets directly as an action. It sort of fits his character too I believe, taking the supplies from those who've died, kind of outside the law.

Vigilante

• Shots: 3 -> 1
• Loot: Can be used when no bullets are left. Choose a dead Vigilante or Deputy. If they have an ability charge, take their ability charge.
• Takes a body the same way Retributionist and Necromancer do.
• Not affected by hangman.

If Jailor is nerfed down to only 1 exe, I'd remove the punishment.

Veteran is... strange. I'd make it so he can mark up to 3 people each night, if they visit they're attacked, and their attacks are negative if basic. I'd also add that he can't mark the same player twice.

[mild arch]

this could theoretically have more than 3 shots if lots of TK is dead no?

not really a fan of how it gains shots though

[pale cargo]

Yeah, if a lot of TK die without using their ability.

And to take more than 3 shots:

n1: Cannot
n2: Shoot
n3: Loot
n4: Shoot
n5: Loot
n6: Shoot
n7: Loot
n8: Shoot

It would take a LONG time and rely on very specific deaths.

Vigilante

• Shots: 3 -> 1
• Loot: Can be used when no bullets are left. Choose a dead Player. If they're a Vigilante and have an ability charge, take their ability charge, otherwise this fails.
• Does not occupy the Body. Has priority based on player number.
• Not affected by hangman.

^ What about something like this?

[green cloak]

Jailor is fine with just 2 kills imo
Veteran isn't great but it's definitely more balanced
Vigilante is fine without that last clause, which overshadows retri and makes amne really strong

[dire monolith]

tbh, if jailor has 1 exe, then I think he shouldn't lose jail if he exes a townie

jailor is a tpow
tpow should have means to help town maintain maj
and the punishment for misfire here is too severe

vet should have basic attack and no defense
if vigi have only one shot, then at least he shouldn't have ability to misfire at all like dep

[dire loom]

Executes: 3 -> 1

what?

i thinnk that's fucking insane for a tpow lmao

fuck no

[rough cedar]

i dont really like the jailor one

theres infinitely better ways to nerf jailors utility then just taking away a few of its charges

and jailor should be punished for misexecuting

other then that its fine

[stark birch]

I hate all of these

[agile saddle]

jailor should NOT have one charge

yes town has too much killpower in a lot of cases but most of these are too much

[mild arch]

(jailor would be the second best town power with one execute)

[pale cargo]

Vigilante with 1 bullet would just be too boring, and unhealthy with no hangman punishment. You hang out, and click the first confirmed evil. If there's not a good situation for this, you'll eventually just shoot someone suspicious enough to back up your claim.

[mild arch]

vigilante would be fine with one shot

theres no reason it should wipe an entire evil faction

[stark birch]

no it wouldn't

it'd be the worst

[pale cargo]

Prosecutor is still the worst

[mild arch]

why should one player be able to decide the outcome of a game

[stark birch]

monarch would be better than 1 execute jailor

[mild arch]

deciding wether good wins or evil wins by dying to hangman and killing a townie

much less in the CT bucket

jailor is still the best of every alignment

[mild arch]

town powers are slightly more excusable but they still shouldnt

[pale cargo]

1 basic attack with no punishment basically makes him worse Deputy in every way, with only "killing a town member to confirm yourself" and "killing Necronomicon holder" being the bonuses.

[mild arch]

deputy sidegrade at worst

and thats because deputy sucks

[stark birch]

this is the most ass suggestion, i'd rather blood moon be added than this shit

[pale cargo]

Downsides:

• Can't kill Neutral Killing
• Can't kill Coven Leaver
• Can't kill Berserker
• Can't kill any neutral day 3 and below
• Can misfire and kill town

Upsides:

• Can kill necronomicon holder
• Can kill town to confirm himself

[agile saddle]

marshal has more kills than jailor
mayor and prosecutor can control hanging
monarch can do it and also defense

[mild arch]

me when neutrals are hard to dispose of on purpose

me when neutrals have defense for a reason

[pale cargo]

That seems irrelivant?

I don't see how the balance of neutrals has to do with the comparison between vigilante and deputy

[stark birch]

me when more neutrals don't have defense than do

[mild arch]

every neut killing vampire on a condition and jackal has it

basically everything that needs it to function

[barren tinsel]

d3 you can kill

NE lose def d3

[mild arch]

yeah

id rather NE have ethereal and focus on being anti town

[stark birch]

many more neutrals don't have defense! you proved my point!

[pale cargo]

close enough

[mild arch]

because they dont need it to function

lmao?

why should the jester have defense

or the pirate

[stark birch]

you said "me when neutrals have defense for a reason"

[barren tinsel]

you arent making sense bud

[mild arch]

because me when the serial killer doesnt have defense and dies n1 to a random hit from coven

[barren tinsel]

those neutrals have it for a reason

[stark birch]

most neutrals don't have defense

[mild arch]

throwback to old cl

[barren tinsel]

the other neutrals dont

[mild arch]

because they dont need it

💀

what are you trying to prove

[stark birch]

you implied most neutrals have defense

[barren tinsel]

also most neutrals do have defence

[stark birch]

no they don't

[mild arch]

bottom barrel argument

[barren tinsel]

its literally jest and pirate and cs which dont

[mild arch]

and more do than dont

[stark birch]

all NE, all NS except jackal and all NP

[barren tinsel]

NK

[mild arch]

pariah has defense

[barren tinsel]

oh nvm i thought you were saying what does have def

[pale cargo]

and you are using red herring arguments

[mild arch]

doom exe inquisitor have until d3

[barren tinsel]

@stark birch temporary defence is still defence

it can still effect the outcome of a game

[stark birch]

not really

[agile saddle]

when the conversation is about town killings who can't kill night 1 and often don't kill night 2

[mild arch]

yeah

[pale cargo]

If vigilante has only 1 shot you have to find a way to justify it being better than Deputy. There are marginal benefits but the character not only cannot kill nearly as many characters as Deputy, but has the added risk of misfiring and killing town members.

[stark birch]

you say "yeah" as if you didn't deflect off of that

[mild arch]

but my point was neutrals shouldn’t die to hits from tk and should be harder to dispose of

[stark birch]

if vigilante has 1 bullet (which it shouldn't) it should at MINIMUM be able to take out neutrals

[pale cargo]

Well then you still need to justify making Vigilante useful... at all.
Deputy gets 1 kill and is powerful.
Vigilante gets 3 kills and is basic, under the threat of killing town and himself with a misfire.
If you want vigilante to have 1 kill, that's weaker deputy.

[barren tinsel]

Dep cant and can be fooled

vigi cant but can misfire

[mild arch]

why is kill power so undervalued

killing a player is very overpowered

[stark birch]

vigilante with 1 bullet is worse dep

[pale cargo]

"Dep that can't be fooled" is an upside to... 1 character. Book holder (minus Coven Leader).
The downside is... literally every town? I don't see how that makes up for the weak attack.

[barren tinsel]

vigi is more confirmed mostly

[mild arch]

anyone can fake deputy

as well

[barren tinsel]

dep you have a hard time

[stark birch]

vigi with 1 bullet is worse dep as it can shoot town

while dep cannot

[barren tinsel]

frames:

[barren tinsel]

I said dep CAN be fooled

[stark birch]

me when I deflect with the most pointless shit ever:

[pale cargo]

Vigi is "easier to confirm" because he can kill town members? The added "bonus" of being confirmed when he kills town doesn't seem like a huge benefit.

[barren tinsel]

Me when this pointless shit is major in 4 whole ass modes

[pale cargo]

oof I misread

[stark birch]

when have you seen a town dep shoot a town member

actually fucking tell me

I have seen it ONE FUCKING TIME

[barren tinsel]

I have atleast twice

[stark birch]

twice is not a lot

[pale cargo]

if I had a nickle

[agile saddle]

the only time ive seen it is when i enchanted someone n1 and dep intentionally random shot and that does NOT count

[barren tinsel]

ive seen it in TT

or was it JR

[stark birch]

the only time i've seen town dep shoot a town member was in JR and I was the dep

[rough cedar]

hangman isnt a valid method of balancing

[stark birch]

the only time vigi is more confirmed than dep is if it kills a town member

[pale cargo]

ok??? then come up with something new. Ignoring the issue isn't balancing either

[stark birch]

which is imminent death for the vigi

[rough cedar]

there is no issue

vigi with 1 bullet allows for healthier tk designs

[stark birch]

vigi with 1 bullet is worse dep

[barren tinsel]

"no longer gets affected by hangman"

[pale cargo]

Why should we implement an overall worse version of a TK who already exists

[rough cedar]

currently tk is 1 bullet to 3 bullets to inf kp to inf kp

[barren tinsel]

Dep can missfire on a townie

[stark birch]

i'm talking about current vigi you bumbling idiot

[barren tinsel]

You were talking about vigi with 1 shot

[rough cedar]

so we can balance the other tks and reduce powercreeping

[barren tinsel]

which is not current vigi

[rough cedar]

i dont think you understand

[stark birch]

how the fuck are you telling me what I was talking about

[pale cargo]

so you want to also nerf Deputy?? explain how

[rough cedar]

even a town role being able to kill during the night is extremely powerful

[barren tinsel]

If youre talking in a suggestion with a 1 shot vigi, then im going to assume you are talking about the suggestion

[rough cedar]

not as much nerf as overhaul

[barren tinsel]

if you arent get out

[rough cedar]

giving vigi 1 bullet allows for more conditional tk with more charges

[stark birch]

hey dumbass, read

[rough cedar]

because vigi is such a streamlined tk with 3 shots

nothing in the slot can compete with it

[pale cargo]

A 1 shot basic attack character would still be very boring gameplay (yes, I think Deputy is boring too)

[rough cedar]

womp womp

[pale cargo]

Me when I try to make a game fun

[barren tinsel]

I was talking in reference to the suggestion

[stark birch]

3 shot vigi may not be balanced but it is fun

this makes the game unfun.

[barren tinsel]

you dont know what I was talking about

[pale cargo]

Clearly fun is irrelivant in videogames, optimize for BALANCE ONLY until we're all playing TIC TAC TOE

[rough cedar]

me when 3/4 of my coven gets shot by a vigi with no counterplay

(this game is very fun guys)

[pale cargo]

Why did you get your entire team outted

[stark birch]

normally skill issue is said as a joke but in this case that is a genuine fucking skill issue

[rough cedar]

skill issue or not i dont think you see the problem with 3 kills being inherently unhealthy

[pale cargo]

Me when my team is acting incredibly suspicious and not trying to divert town and we all die:

[rough cedar]

as you just said yes, vigi is unhealthy with 3 kills

but whats your reasoning for keeping it that way?

because its unfun?

[stark birch]

I want the game to be fun

[pale cargo]

The reason is your alternative sucks

[stark birch]

you want the game to be unfun and balanced

which is objectively worse

[rough cedar]

oooooh noooo

[barren tinsel]

youre talking as if you enjoy april

[stark birch]

april is completely different

april is unbalanced and unfun

[pale cargo]

Do you realize that the point of a game isn't to optimize into perfect balance?

[stark birch]

yes? that's what you literally are saying

[mild arch]

yes, but it being too overtuned is additionally unfun

[stark birch]

you do not want fun

you want perfect balance

[mild arch]

especially a sdg

[mild arch]

this is a lie

[rough cedar]

look yes obviously making the game entertaining is a priority, balancing is a staple of this game and is just as important as it. youre not going to be able to compromise by pleasing both parties, however leaving a garbage role unbalanced in the name of “fun gameplay” doesnt address anyones issues in the slightest

[stark birch]

was I talking to you? no, so shut the fuck up

[mild arch]

its not fun to be on the receiving end of a vigilante mopping coven

[barren tinsel]

youre getting heated over game balance

[mild arch]

can you fucking be nice

[rough cedar]

fun should be considered but it shouldnt overrule core gameplay decisions that overall make the game healthier

[stark birch]

no

[pale cargo]

Your desired changes would be closer to balanced at the cost of making the game considerably less fun as these characters

[mild arch]

you understand you being an asshole is why i blocked you

[stark birch]

I only become an asshole when people are intentionally missing the fucking point

[pale cargo]

If coven manages to not fool a Vigilante even once that's on them TBH. Their downside kills both a town member and themselves so you need to fool them ONLY ONCE to kill as many of the town as the enemies.

[mild arch]

(seems to always be the case)

anyways moving on

im not derailing this thread

[rough cedar]

then its a cost people should be willing to take

[barren tinsel]

me when im forced into a 1f1 (some ti checked me randomly)

[stark birch]

no it shouldn't

fun > balance

[barren tinsel]

its literally that easy to get fucked

[rough cedar]

then why the fuck are you in the balance thread

??

[stark birch]

balance is supposed to make the game fun

are you stupid

[mild arch]

hes here to preach bad balance as being fun

[barren tinsel]

all of you are talking as if TK and TI dont go hand to hand

[mild arch]

TI and TK arent in the same realm

[rough cedar]

not necessarily as a core component of balancing

[barren tinsel]

TI gets the info and TK act on that info

[pale cargo]

Edge case scenarios don't seem relevant. Me when I'm Coroner and I randomly check a killer every night (coroner is OP)

[rough cedar]

its supposed to make the game healthy, which in turn

[stark birch]

if balancing does not make the game fun you are balancing wrong

[barren tinsel]

is what im reffering to

[rough cedar]

will make the game fun for other people since they arent dealing with morbidly unhealthy roles with little counterplay

[mild arch]

TK can also scumread

[barren tinsel]

How is it an edgecase

it happens every game

thats literally salem

[mild arch]

so its not like a lack of TI kills town if the vigilante is good

[rough cedar]

ok so. in my opinion, jailor is a really fun role and im excited when i get it

in this case

[stark birch]

vigilante is not the best but acting as if it is a literal sin is bad

[pale cargo]

Every single game you get in a random 1f1 with a vigilante?

[rough cedar]

should jailor not be changed?

[barren tinsel]

Not with a vigilante

with the TI

[stark birch]

jailor is fun as you said

[barren tinsel]

sheriff finds you sus

[rough cedar]

cause if jailor gets nerfed you know people are gonna be upset

[stark birch]

it should not be changed

[barren tinsel]

youre in a 1f1

[mild arch]

i love these roles but they arent good

[mild arch]

yep

cant appeal to everyone

[rough cedar]

so because fun > balance

[stark birch]

jailor can be nerfed but 1 execution jailor is bad and dumb

[barren tinsel]

invest finds you tresspassing

thats a 1f1f1 at best

[rough cedar]

jailor shouldnt be nerfed?

[barren tinsel]

coven cant counterplay that

[rough cedar]

i dont think jailor should have 1 exe either

but jailor needs nerfs

[stark birch]

Illusionist

Enchanter

[rough cedar]

wow

i didnt know enchanter and illus were guaranteed spawns

[mild arch]

im of the opinion that

[stark birch]

that's not what i'm saying? I'm saying "coven has no counterplay" is a lie.

[mild arch]

independent killers should be hard capped at two

the harder it is to hit the more potential

[pale cargo]

So is your argument that vigilante saving 1 trial when they mess up the 1f1? Because you're dying in the 1f1 with the vigilante or without unless you're just on the edge of winning.

[mild arch]

since jailor is a vigilante proc id be fine with a one execute jailor

obviously it needs some strengths over vigilante

[barren tinsel]

you were talking about if coven dont avoid vigi thats a skill issue

i responded the way i thought i should

[stark birch]

1 execute jailor would be the worst tpow with even monarch and fucking mayor outclassing it

[rough cedar]

yes of course coven has counterplay, but handpicking two roles that may not always spawn is a ridiculous way to justify a TI being unhealthy

[barren tinsel]

youre acting like a super roleblock isnt good

[rough cedar]

you cant say seer is balanced because enchanter or illus might spawn and stop it in its tracks

[stark birch]

is everything in this game unhealthy to you?

[pale cargo]

That's 1 shot from a vigilante, so making it 1 max doesn't really fix the problem.

[mild arch]

or crusader+

[rough cedar]

nearly everything yeah

[mild arch]

or journalist

[rough cedar]

from a balance standpoint

[stark birch]

mfw I want jailor to be tavern keeper

[rough cedar]

not necessarily from a fun standpoint

[pale cargo]

Vigilante, regardless of how many shots, can kill you in the 1f1 so I don't see why it's relevant to this point of balancing.

[rough cedar]

but if we give every role in the game a gun its not a social deduction game

[stark birch]

the proposed rework here is literally tavern keeper 2

[barren tinsel]

it already is tav/TP

[mild arch]

jailor is the BEST in every alignment

[rough cedar]

its just a glorified fps

[mild arch]

turn based combat

💀

[rough cedar]

basically

[barren tinsel]

mfw when someone is jailed and there are no kills (the jailed person is hung)

[stark birch]

me when I just don't kill and frame the jailed person

[rough cedar]

if someones idea of fun is that every role should remain inherently unbalanced for the sake of enjoyment it might be a firey take

but i dont think those people should be catered to as priority

[pale cargo]

There are scenarios in this game where there is no counterplay. It's just not possible to always be able to win every day, so following your scenario Vigilante saves a trial in the 1f1 argument. It doesn't even speed up investigations, it's only useful if coven is rapidly outting themselves faster than they can hang.

[barren tinsel]

thats literally the same as killing

[stark birch]

that's not what anybody is saying here? so nice strawman I guess?

we're saying balance should not be taken priority over fun

[rough cedar]

youre saying that vigi having 3 shots is unbalanced, no?

[stark birch]

not that everything should be unbalanced

[rough cedar]

you said that before

[stark birch]

but it is certainly more fun than 1 shot vigi

[rough cedar]

so that is what im saying here

obviously every role is a stretch

[stark birch]

no it isn't

are you playing dumb or genuinely this stupid?

[pale cargo]

I found the solution: ||make vigi town power||

[rough cedar]

but it basically outlines what youre saying as in leaving a role unhealthy for the sake of enjoyment

[rough cedar]

https://tenor.com/view/drake-explode-water-gif-15929872

[stark birch]

you can change roles

but you shouldn't have balance be priority over fun

[barren tinsel]

imagine getting vigi instead of marshal lmao

[stark birch]

if every role in TOS2 was perfectly balanced like SOME of you want than the game would be unfun

[rough cedar]

ok im not dancing around my point anymore no i dont agree with this

balance > fun

[mild arch]

vigilante could have been tpow

[stark birch]

no

[rain haven]

@mild arch has leveled up! (69 ➜ 70)

[mild arch]

if jailor didnt exist

[stark birch]

genuinely no

get out

[barren tinsel]

The actual devs disagree

but ok

[stark birch]

if you want balance over fun go the fuck back to tic tac toe

[pale cargo]

You would rather not enjoy the game than have it not always be fair regardless of role?

[rough cedar]

youre in a balancing thread sir

[stark birch]

which is meant to make the game fun

BALANCING IS MEANT TO MAKE THE GAME FUN

[rough cedar]

people have different interpretations of fun

[mild arch]

i would enjoy a more fair game

than maxing out “fun” as killpower or useless abilities

[rough cedar]

my idea of fun is not having every game be filled to the brim with tp and tk

[pale cargo]

So you're redefining your fun as not fun for the sake of argument?

[rough cedar]

i like actually using skill to win

and feeling accomplished

[mild arch]

villagers real

(this is a bad idea on purpose)

[rough cedar]

what do you define as not fun

[stark birch]

me when I want a game of all amnesiacs and 4 coven members (it may not be fun but it's balanced)

[barren tinsel]

townie surv 🔥

[barren tinsel]

its not even balanced

[pale cargo]

Me when sometimes evils have strong team composition and sometimes town has strong team composition so you don't know how the match goes ahead of time: 😠

[stark birch]

sdgs inherently will always have luck

[mild arch]

it should be minimized

[rough cedar]

me when coven have rit pmer conj and coven leader

“oh well, its just luck at the end of the day”

[barren tinsel]

this i disagree with

not minimized

[pale cargo]

I get that you don't want the game to be mostly dependent on team composition, but it's not, and making the game fully independent of team composition isn't fun.

[barren tinsel]

but should stay at a good amount

[mild arch]

the game shouldnt be a diceroll

[stark birch]

me when I want a role list with all guaranteed roles (it has no luck)

[mild arch]

because it sucks when it is and you lost the diceroll

[barren tinsel]

neither should it be set in stone the second you spawn

[stark birch]

me when I want people to be able to pick their own role (it has no luck)

[low torrent]

Jailor should have more than 1 execute

[pale cargo]

Is it wrong to have some games harder than others??

[low torrent]

the whole point of tpow is to give town maj

[mild arch]

all roles in a bucket should be roughly equal

[stark birch]

they are

in most cases

[mild arch]

or to be designated leaders

[stark birch]

equal

[pale cargo]

I mean if your issue is some games are harder than others we have bigger problems ahem prosecutor town traitor

[lilac terrace]

Coroner

[low torrent]

Okay lets just make a tpow role that reveals and then kills 5 random players

so it can be a dedicated leader'

[stark birch]

that is not marshal

[low torrent]

The vigi one is good

The Vet one is questionable

the jailor is ASS

[barren tinsel]

me when I get mayor instead of jailor or spy instead of seer or trick instead of 3 shot vigi

[mild arch]

it reveals and kills people

[low torrent]

Jailor needs AT LEAST 2 executes

[mild arch]

hang on

[stark birch]

what are you even saying here

[mild arch]

why dont you like mine but like this vigilante

[low torrent]

Didnt I like yours?

[barren tinsel]

you said they are equal in most cases

[mild arch]

no

[low torrent]

Link me your post lmao

[barren tinsel]

they are not

[stark birch]

okay but form a coherent sentence, that is not coherent

[mild arch]

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1311166817502498901

[barren tinsel]

it is

what

[copper marlin]

What happens when there are other two vigilantes when a vigilante dies

does only 1 of them get the extra bullet

[barren tinsel]

I supposed the shot would multiply

[mild arch]

what

[barren tinsel]

would suck to get fucked over by rng

[pale cargo]

That's why I suggested something like this to clear up how exactly he gets his bullets

[stark birch]

it makes no sense

[barren tinsel]

"If a vigilante dies you will gain an extra bullet"

[mild arch]

oh what

[low torrent]

Did I argue in the comments or just dislike it?

I cant find anything I said

I must have found something wrong with it

[mild arch]

i don’t remember

[low torrent]

Oh yeah

[barren tinsel]

its literally me stating 3 different cases of unbalanced role pools

[low torrent]

I said 2 charges with the penalty

[stark birch]

the way you formed it was bad

[low torrent]

I still think thats better

but im more open to changing it to this if we nerf all tk

[mild arch]

hangman penalty?

[low torrent]

But vet should be a powerful attack

[low torrent]

ye

[lilac terrace]

I'd say higher on list gets priority maybe?

[mild arch]

hangman isnt a good mechanic

it just punishes bad players while not doing anything to balance good players

[stark birch]

it is infinitely better than any of the reworks listed in the main post

[low torrent]

The balanceing good players is the kill itself

[barren tinsel]

Getting fucked by your role number isnt fun

[low torrent]

and being able to have incredibly high kpow

[mild arch]

and if a bad player messes up it loses town the game

[mild arch]

??

[low torrent]

I think thats true with any tpow

Or TI

That just is bad

[barren tinsel]

throwing mayor 🔥

[mild arch]

TI do not lose you the game

[pale cargo]

Good players still misfire. Hangman can be thought of as a bonus for evils when they get town to mess up. If a good player never experiences hangman then they're not taking many shots.

[stark birch]

any bad player can lose you the game

[mild arch]

who misfires more

[stark birch]

no matter the role

[mild arch]

a bad vigilante or the greatest vigilante in the world

[low torrent]

a bad vigi

[lilac terrace]

So what I'm hearing is
Give Jailor 2 exes
Give vet more marks?
Vigi is fine

[stark birch]

me when strawmanning

[low torrent]

No make vet powerful

[mild arch]

ah, so it punishes bad players and makes them scared to use their role

[stark birch]

no all of these are bad

[low torrent]

Your vet is fine

just make it powerful

[pale cargo]

You get three kills but if you mess up even one of them both you and your target die. That's a pretty good way to distinguish it from Deputy, who gets one poweful kill but if he messes up, he's fine (with some rare exceptions).

[copper marlin]

Wait real quick, doesn't btos2 delay vigi's hangman death to the end of the day?

[low torrent]

vet shouldnt be useless against a majority of neutrals

considering most tk already are

[mild arch]

yes

[low torrent]

Deputy is so ass

it needs a change

I hate it

[mild arch]

daykills arent healthy

[stark birch]

current vigi, dep and jailor are fine.

[barren tinsel]

I think just losing the townie vigi shot is enough

[stark birch]

like

[barren tinsel]

not an extra kill of the heck of it

[stark birch]

we do not need everything to be perfectly balanced until we're just playing tic tac toe

[rough cedar]

ok so this is just admitting it atp

[low torrent]

Sk im gonna have to disagree with you on this one bruh

[pale cargo]

I like him being a glass canon. If he's played well, he gets lots of value. If he makes one mistake, there's terrible consequences. You're removing his strength and his weakness making him generic. Like Deputy.

[stark birch]

I meant vet not dep

current dep is ass

[rough cedar]

you wont be playing tic tac toe because there is less kill power in the game

add more kp and were playing fortnite

[low torrent]

Town is given overpowered mechanics to make up for bad players

which is not how the game should be balanced

town needs to be nerfed

[barren tinsel]

I do feel 1 shot is a bit less

but 2 is a bit unfair

to other tk

[mild arch]

one shot means more room for other tk reworks

[stark birch]

people like you want no fun and everything to be perfectly balanced, go back to tic tac toe.

[mild arch]

why? its simple

[copper marlin]

can't wait till berserker starts building the eiffel tower

[mild arch]

easier to hit a shot

less potential

[rough cedar]

tic tac toe isnt even balanced

especially when i can cross everything out with a black marker

[mild arch]

and other tk reworks can be made to have harder shots but more potential

[pale cargo]

You realize both teams get the same players right? Town isn't any smarter than Coven, it's just a harder side to play. It doesn't make sense to imply town players are worse at the game and thus balanced with strong roles. Even if that was the case, your solution is to make town weak and just let them die?

[stark birch]

tic tac toe is literally the most balanced thing ever as any mistakes made are your fault

[low torrent]

I agree with the perfectly balanced thing which I think Lagspikes and Temp do sometimes but a TK nerf is needed

[mild arch]

a vigilante with 2 shots completely invalidates other TK reworks

as why would you want other tk over vigilante

[rough cedar]

if you play tic tac toe and someones rips up the paper dont come crying to me that theyre playing unfair

[pale cargo]

what is bro talking about

[low torrent]

Your trick rework can kill 2 people no?

[barren tinsel]

just delete vigi from the game

[stark birch]

I don't know

[barren tinsel]

honestly

its a plague

[stark birch]

what if we delete you from existence

[mild arch]

yes, but its harder to get a shot

[rough cedar]

any game of tic tac toe can be rigged by me ripping up the paper

[low torrent]

Trick should be like vigi that takes longer but dont have consequences

[rough cedar]

do you know the method?

[low torrent]

I think that would be fine

[mild arch]

whiteout

[barren tinsel]

now youre defending because of nostalgia

[low torrent]

Vigi with 1 shot would be kind of boring

[stark birch]

vigilante vet and jailor are genuinely fine

[barren tinsel]

but vigi with 2 shots outdoes every other tk

[mild arch]

i disagree

town should be playing socially

[stark birch]

1 shot vigi is boring as hell

[low torrent]

it would just be vannila dep

[mild arch]

so if you sit back and do nothing thats on you

[stark birch]

but vigi with 1 shot is worse dep

[pale cargo]

If your problem is how fast vigi can take out enemies, add a cooldown. Make it so he has one ability charge, and recovers it on the nights he doesn't shoot like Trapper.

[low torrent]

Idk I still think town should have a good amount of kill power

[barren tinsel]

also hop on queue

[low torrent]

definetly less than the current though

[pale cargo]

But saying he doesn't deserve those extra kills and rounding out his pros and cons makes him a boring, generic killer like Deputy

[mild arch]

why is town killpower so undervalued

[barren tinsel]

reload has been suggested before yes

[stark birch]

if you're one of the people who think that balance > fun than you should be watching paint dry

[mild arch]

back in ye olden days you picked a player to die during the day and that was it

[lilac terrace]

I'd say it's better dep because it's still proven if it misfires

[rough cedar]

https://tenor.com/view/off-work-work-working-paint-painting-gif-13957980

this is my ass then

[stark birch]

you're the type of person who would be entertained watching paint dry

[pale cargo]

Killing 3 evils IS really strong, but honestly how often does this happen? How much more often does vigi get maybe one good kill then kills himself and another? Having a character who can perform really well under the right circumstances isn't an issue.

[rough cedar]

its beautiful almost as good as birdwatching

sometimes i even like to pick up sticks and leaves and add them to my collection

[mild arch]

bird activity

[copper marlin]

pictured, you: 🦜

[rough cedar]

i lowkey wish i was a bird

[copper marlin]

what would you do as a bird

[lilac terrace]

Alright so
Jailor: 1 Execute -> 2
Vet: Attack - Basic -> Powerful
Vigi: Still deciding how to distribute the bullet

[pale cargo]

what IS bro talking about

[rough cedar]

bird stuff bro

[mild arch]

snipe peoples cars

[copper marlin]

thank you for being specific

[stark birch]

Jailor: don't change
Vet: don't change
Vigi: don't change

[mild arch]

most open minded balancer

[rough cedar]

im talking about bird things, humans wouldnt understand

[stark birch]

that's the objectively correct way, if you want to nerf, rework or overhaul vigi/vet/jailor don't do this

[copper marlin]

i think jester should get to kill transformed apocalpyse

[barren tinsel]

objectively correct is subjective as its an opinion

[mild arch]

i wish i had server stats for my skull reaction here

[barren tinsel]

please do not use it wrongly

[stark birch]

hard no but at the same time how often would this come up?

just like how often is 1 vigi going to shoot 3 coven members

almost never

[copper marlin]

i also think he should hex people

[barren tinsel]

[stark birch]

I personally think that vet/vigi/jailor do not need changes but if you think they do this is not the correct way to go about the changes for them

[rough cedar]

i think vigi should be nerfed from the heavens

jailor should be nerfed

vet should be overhauled

[barren tinsel]

make vigi scam WW

can shoot on full moon nights

[mild arch]

no lets instead make vigi scam people

stealing ability charges fr

[wild yarrow]

so

[rough cedar]

i also think balance > fun

[wild yarrow]

nothing changes besides jailor having 2 exes

💀

[rough cedar]

can we get 5 👎?

[wild yarrow]

good concepts bad executio

💀

[barren tinsel]

we have 6

idk what u want

[stark birch]

worst take ever

[rough cedar]

i meant on my message

[barren tinsel]

ill upvote to balance the upvotes downvotes

[lilac terrace]

I'm deciding how to distribute the bullet Still

[wild yarrow]

SK this is not it

[mild arch]

(it shouldnt)

[stark birch]

if you think balance > fun please go play scrabble

[barren tinsel]

if you want to have fun play AA then

[wild yarrow]

Keep my GOAT's name out of your fucking mouth.

[barren tinsel]

this would purely a modded thing

[mild arch]

(chaos modes should be relatively balanced)

[stark birch]

when did I say unbalanced things = fun? I said you should not prioritize balance over fun

[turbid sentinel]

Vigi should gain a bullet if any tk dies before using all of their charge imo, then there is no difference to which tk dies, and the interaction will play out the same every game.

[wild yarrow]

balance is fun though

[barren tinsel]

AA's pretty fun

idk what youre on about

[turbid sentinel]

^

[wild yarrow]

having one side sweep the other team by a landslide is NOT fun [see: PTT]

[stark birch]

you should balance things to have fun but you should not have balance be prioritized over fun like SOME PEOPLE think it should

[mild arch]

more accurately see wandering souls or any compliance list ever

[rough cedar]

that guy knows whats up

balance > fun

[stark birch]

balance < fun

[wild yarrow]

balance /is/ fun

that's the thing

[barren tinsel]

lesser than equals too is a better symbol for what youre trying to say

[wild yarrow]

- ATT enjoyer

[barren tinsel]

≤

that one yeah

[stark birch]

not always

if everything was perfectly balanced

the game wouldn't be fun

[wild yarrow]

balanced modes are more fun than chaos modes

compare ATT [almost dead 50/50 winrate] to something like IYT [is IYT], for instance

[barren tinsel]

I honestly disagree

[stable wraith]

IYT is pretty fun I thought it was pretty balanced

[barren tinsel]

I play balanced modes to work my brain

chaos modes is to sit back relax

and troll the shit

out of everyone

[wild yarrow]

I play balanced modes because I like modes that actually have an even struggle

instead of just
"Oh, it's Day 2, Evils have won"

[merry pilot]

alternatively

"It's day 3 and we have 5 confirmed townies"

[wild yarrow]

yeah lmao

[mild arch]

i love seer mass confirmation

[merry pilot]

It's not fun when the game has been decided by its role list and you barely stand a chance no matter how hard you try

[barren tinsel]

wrong image

[stark birch]

chaos does not equal fun but neither does balance equal fun

[barren tinsel]

whoops

[stable wraith]

PJR is def not fair for town considering the difference in power level between all TK

[rough cedar]

balance > fun

[stark birch]

https://tenor.com/view/remi-remi-cat-jump-cat-jumping-loop-gif-2421977853889667704

[wild yarrow]

i will say again that my take is simply that balance is fun

balance is fun and swing is bad

[barren tinsel]

all of you objectifying fun is hilarious

[mild arch]

my take is we should gut everything

beat it with hammers

[rough cedar]

i agree with this too

[wild yarrow]

because fun is objective

[stark birch]

chaos does not equal fun
balance does not equal fun

fun is its own entity

[barren tinsel]

I already said we should remove vigi

[stable wraith]

Some roles are just inherently unfair or unfun and mayb they should be removed

[barren tinsel]

No it isnt

[merry pilot]

Yeah, what @wild yarrow said.
The problem with "balance over fun" or "fun over balance" is that it codifies balance and fun as separate, conflicting priorities. They aren't.
A balanced experience is required for the game to be fun

[wild yarrow]

oh you're making bait

got it

[wild yarrow]

💀

[wild yarrow]

[mild arch]

chat

[merry pilot]

[barren tinsel]

How is fun objective

what

[stark birch]

one role

only one role should b removed

[stable wraith]

Pirate is S tier die if you disagree

[stark birch]

and we all know what role

[mild arch]

is it time to post my NE overhaul (i want to redo jester before i post it)

[wild yarrow]

wait i just

realised i said objective instead of subjective

[barren tinsel]

bro

[wild yarrow]

i'm killing myself brb

[mild arch]

💀

[stark birch]

top 10 times thslo was wrong

[stable wraith]

What role

[wild yarrow]

https://tenor.com/view/dragon-ball-dragon-ball-z-dbfz-dragon-ball-fighter-z-power-gif-27632814

[stark birch]

🥧 🐀

[wild yarrow]

pirate is the only role that is unfixable without overhauling it conceptually

[stark birch]

pirate is the only role that needs to be removed

[stark birch]

me when both me and thslo start a message with "pirate is the only role that"

[mild arch]

curtis wont remove it though

so overhauls are the only solution

[barren tinsel]

[wild yarrow]

you can 'fix' pirate by changing it entirely

[stark birch]

Curtis

[merry pilot]

Disagree because Jester exists

[wild yarrow]

to the point where it's not pirate at all lmao

[stark birch]

what is it with the jester hate

jester is fine

[mild arch]

can you look over my jester/pirate for feedback

[wild yarrow]

jester is 100% problematic but, imho, doesn't need a complete overhaul to become an actually good role

[merry pilot]

Jester is not fine

[barren tinsel]

Jester more often than not gets confirmed by screwing over evils

id say its fine

[wild yarrow]

unlike pierate

[merry pilot]

No it does not

Jester's problem is that it fucks over Town (and frankly, evils) for scumreading it as evil.

[stark birch]

me when I sniped recruited sk 2 times yesterday by saying a random person had murder and trespassing (I was jester faking invest)

[merry pilot]

An evil that punishes you for correctly scumreading it directly goes against the design of the game

And it basically becomes a match-up check for Town

[barren tinsel]

Its punishment is ass i agree

but winning is just gambling

as jest

[merry pilot]

The punishment isn't the problem

It's that the thing it is punishing you for is bad.

[mild arch]

(it is a problem)

[sage dust]

just say some1's enemies with dead townie

and ur good

ez win

[stark birch]

👎

[mild arch]

dying as the arsonist for pushing out a potential threat is dumb

[barren tinsel]

I literally had jester out the rec death

good riddance though

[merry pilot]

you really had to ping for this instead of just reacting

[stark birch]

make it so that if jester would target a evil or doesn't target it haunts a random town member

[merry pilot]

OK but like

Town also gets fucked for correctly scumreading a Jester

It's an evil but if it's "the wrong evil" you get fucked

like bro

That's not okay

[stark birch]

jester is fine the punishment is only bad because it can fuck over evils

[merry pilot]

even if it was NP-Lite

OK I need you to read this very carefully
Why is it okay for an evil role to punish you for correctly scumreading it as evil?

[stark birch]

because every TI sees it as town and you have multiple ways to take care of a jester

[mild arch]

not guaranteed

jailor and vigilantes wont spawn every game

neither will deputies

[merry pilot]

That's what I meant when I called it a matchup check for town

[barren tinsel]

scumreading doenst take TI

[merry pilot]

^

Every TI seeing it as town doesn't matter when TI checks are not the reason most Jesters get hanged.
They get hanged because they say/do something that makes them look scummy

[barren tinsel]

pushing someone up for no claimspace is very real

and should be feared

its like the tooth fairy

[stark birch]

me when nobody gets haunted because we don't hang the most obvious jester and we instead have a jailor/vigi/dep/marshal take care of it

[merry pilot]

Marshal lynches

lmao

also

[stark birch]

jester currently cannot haunt if hung during tribunal

[barren tinsel]

it can

[merry pilot]

I play vanilla

ALSO
Me when we don't have a Jailor/Vigi/Dep, don't hang the "Jester", and lose the game

[barren tinsel]

twas fixed

[rough cedar]

live recreation of a jester winning
“vfa vote up 5 they havent claimed yet”
votes up 5
5: “i claim banned role”
5 gets lynched
the jester will get their revenge from beyond the grave

[stark birch]

me when i'm in the btos2 server

[merry pilot]

You're relying too heavily on the counter roles to spawn

Even if Marshal counts here

[stable wraith]

Jester’s vest is kinda funky imo it makes a jester have to work less hard cuz they have the backbone of basic defense 1 time but that’s a smaller issue

[stark birch]

let me fix the title "live recreation of town being an idiot"

[merry pilot]

It also makes Vigi a less reliable counter

[rough cedar]

town is an idiot cause some guy claimed a banned role?

[stark birch]

vest should give ethereal basic

[merry pilot]

Your TK is Trickster and your TPow is Prosecutor
Now what

If you don't hang the "Jester" and let the HM go free you lose

[stark birch]

have trick use a attack on jest

[merry pilot]

Trickster may not have one

also to really seal it

your TK is Vet

[stark birch]

jester's punishment isn't even that harsh

[mild arch]

tk is dead 🔥

[merry pilot]

I'm fully aware

the problem is

It's punishing you for something that should not reasonably be punished

And the only counterplay to a potential Jester requires a friendly matchup for Town

a matchup that, again, cannot be guaranteed in any standard mode

[rough cedar]

tell that to the nk or coven

[stark birch]

that's why jesters punishment should just be redirected if it would hit a evil 🤷‍♂️

[rough cedar]

so then who would it be redirected onto

rng?

[merry pilot]

No, it doesn't change the fact that Town being punished for scumreading is bad

[rough cedar]

sorry bro

[stark birch]

a random town member

[merry pilot]

It encourages Town to rely on mechanical checks and not scumread
Because anyone you scumread could be a Jester

[rough cedar]

unstoppable attack for you cause my funny number machine said so (this is fun gameplay)

[stark birch]

me when I have to use my abilities (this is bad for some reason)

[stable wraith]

So what should jesters punishment be for reaching its wincon

[merry pilot]

As I've been saying

[stark birch]

I feel like executioner's punishment for jester wouldn't be too bad

[merry pilot]

It's not a punishment issue

Jester is just fundamentally flawed

[stark birch]

(modded exe I should clarify)

[barren tinsel]

its both

[merry pilot]

It really isn't

[stark birch]

not really

[mild arch]

a new wincon

and a new punishment

[merry pilot]

you can't fine tune Jester's punishment just right and make it healthy

[stark birch]

get out

[rough cedar]

jesters punishment should be right click -> delete the role (in an ideal world)

[stark birch]

jester's wincon is fine

[stark birch]

no role needs to be deleted except pirate

[merry pilot]

-# why did that not work

[rough cedar]

idk

[barren tinsel]

jester rbs everyone who guiltied the next night

[stable wraith]

So a new role

[barren tinsel]

abstain of salem

[mild arch]

yes

but with jester assets

[merry pilot]

The problem is that this is a social deduction game
All players, not just TI, need to use their brain and scumread evils. Jester actively discourages you from doing so.

[rough cedar]

at the least roles should be vaulted until their main problems are fixed to not bog down the gameplay for everyone else if that role happens to spawn

deletion can be extreme incase a role can be fixed somehow

[stable wraith]

Executioners punishment is the most fair punishment and jester should be something like that

[lament gulch]

…which executioner-

[rough cedar]

if people arent willing to opt for the deletion route i dont see why vaulting would be a bad idea

[stark birch]

executioner's punishment for jester wouldn't be bad

[stable wraith]

Jester could make all guilty voters vote Guilty next trial or smt

[rough cedar]

but unfortunately

[stable wraith]

BToS2 exe

[stark birch]

tell me, what server are we in?

[rough cedar]

we arent getting it anytime soon

[lament gulch]

I am not playing with tol fool again

[merry pilot]

Because it's "just another way to delete roles" and therefore also bad

[mild arch]

doesnt solve anything

[wild yarrow]

Warlock speechbubble

[rough cedar]

theres definitely a difference at the very least

[merry pilot]

Curtis's words, not mine

There's no way to get around it

[rough cedar]

yeah ik

im speaking from a fantasy world

[merry pilot]

The discussion of role deletion is over, plain and simple

[lament gulch]

Anyway uh
Here’s the thing right? Nobody can perfectly pretend to be town. Everyone has a crack in their lie, and that’s why social deduction works.
Anyone can perfectly pretend to be scum. Pretending to be a liar is. Not that hard. Pretending to push the scum agenda is something jester already wants to do since they would rather scum not die off.
Therefore, socially deducing between scum and Jester is extremely difficult and possibly impossible

[merry pilot]

^

The only thing you can really do is look for common "tells"
Basically plays that have become common enough that it tips you off that it's a Jester

And even then

an evil playing badly (or trying to look like a Jester so they don't get hanged)

can still do the "tells"

[mild arch]

me when faking jester is a reliable strat until the rn is dead

[stable wraith]

Omw to claim veteran in pjr when I get found sus when pandora killed jest n1

[lament gulch]

The pandora enchanter after forging the mayor:

[merry pilot]

Not even literally throwing (like outright claiming to be an evil role) is safe from potentially being the actual evil

because of how many NKs throw in vanilla

[low torrent]

@lilac terrace thanks for the changes I thumbs it up

[mild arch]

(they die hard they arent throwing)

[rough cedar]

“blue vig here will only be targeting cov 🙏”

[merry pilot]

(I don't know how bad the NK throwing problem is in BToS2, but in vanilla it is absolutely rampant)

[mild arch]

i wish i had their confidence

[mild arch]

i don’t see it often in btos2

maybe its because nk rarely can spawn

[merry pilot]

yeah not a lot of modes even have NKs

but regarding the OP

[low torrent]

"Brown Tracker here! Only killing every other night!"

[merry pilot]

Jailor's not enough
Veteran is a rework and should be its own post
Vigi is what I've been asking for

[low torrent]

Wdym jailor is not enough?

TO good or bad?

[mild arch]

nerf jailor more

[low torrent]

Ew

[rough cedar]

is gamethrowing as nk against the rules actually

[low torrent]

2 executes is fine

[rough cedar]

like as in

[mild arch]

yes

[rough cedar]

blue vig here

[mild arch]

people get banned for that

[merry pilot]

Yes

[rough cedar]

would that be reportable

[mild arch]

yes

[rough cedar]

aight

[merry pilot]

that is against the rules

however

[low torrent]

Marshal can kill 2 people and give town maj

[mild arch]

people dont report it

😔

[low torrent]

jailor should be able to have 2 executes

Esp since they lose jail if they exe a townie

[mild arch]

this might come as a shock

[lament gulch]

Honestly might be a hot take on my end but
I kinda wanna rework or overhaul vigi instead of just 1-shot vig, and leave jailor as the only role with a night fullvig

I just. Don’t know where to take it yet.

[mild arch]

but nerf marshal

[merry pilot]

so many people insist it isn't, that you have a real chance of being the only one to report it
And then it isn't going through

[low torrent]

Tpow need a buff not a nerf

[rough cedar]

going out of my way to report every “__ vigi/vet” claim

[low torrent]

mayor is ass

WEll jailor needs a nerf

[merry pilot]

Are you serious

[rough cedar]

https://tenor.com/view/buttefly-dog-butterfly-dog-собака-бабочка-gif-3477745535671394965

[low torrent]

but thats it

[merry pilot]

OK but let's set aside Jailor

let's throw it into the sun for a second

[low torrent]

Only changes tpow need are mayor buff and jailor nerf

[lament gulch]

Like 1-shot vig is ~fine powerwise but part of me is like “surely we can do better?”

[merry pilot]

"TPow needs buffs" is still insane

[mild arch]

yep

[low torrent]

Well specifically mayor

[merry pilot]

Mayor needs a whole rework

[mild arch]

i think i have a way to nerf marshal enough but not make it entirely garbage

[merry pilot]

it doesn't work when Pros/Marsh (Dep in vanilla) exist

[mild arch]

one tribunal, anon reveal + keeps its anon vote

come kill me with hammers

[low torrent]

Never cook again

Anon vote?

Mon anon reveal is bad enough

[merry pilot]

Hard reveal is Mayor's whole identity, and that doesn't work when it's not the only one. Mayor needs a rework.

[stable wraith]

Town judge

[low torrent]

This would suck ass

[mild arch]

it trips on mayor not enough compared to my mayor

[low torrent]

And dieing the next night

[merry pilot]

But as a whole

[low torrent]

Tpow should all reveal except mon and jailor

[stable wraith]

Anon vote is just old socialite in adagias video about vanilla socialite

[merry pilot]

Town of Confirm is the biggest problem with the game

[low torrent]

Yes but if only 2 people are confirmed

its pretty much fine

[merry pilot]

TPow do not need buffs across the board

[low torrent]

I know

they need 1 nerf

and 1 buff

[merry pilot]

No, what they need is to have their power standardized

Which involves all 5 of them

[stable wraith]

On my life jailor needs another exe and the ability to jail again

After they exe town

[merry pilot]

there's a huge gap between the TPow that add extra kills, and the TPow that don't

Even if Mayor was buffed

the gulf between Monarch and Jailor is insane

[mild arch]

i am attempting to address this but i have no idea what to do with prosecutor

[lilac terrace]

Jailor has solo KP while mon is amazing to have late game

[lament gulch]

Mmmmmm
Debatable

[merry pilot]

unfortunately Prosecutor is so similar to Deputy and Marshal that you kind of need to start from scratch

[mild arch]

yeah

[merry pilot]

Which, yes, does mean that at least 2 TPow need a complete overhaul

[mild arch]

which is much harder because i suck at new roles

[lament gulch]

Extra vote power is surprisingly weak on town
Your basic defense isnt quite as good when you have public phylacteries

[merry pilot]

Wow this would be so much easier if-- *is shot*

[mild arch]

[lament gulch]

The monarch is now a lich i dont make the rules

[merry pilot]

real

but yeah

[mild arch]

monarch is a what

[merry pilot]

Monarch isn't bad

But it's dogwater in comparison to Jailor and Marshal

the TPow slot has such massive swing

[lilac terrace]

Make Knight have infinite charges (real)

Town of Knight

[mild arch]

i would like monarch to be a consistent power

[merry pilot]

the issue is, as always, the TPow slot needing to have a consistent identity

[mild arch]

but infinite knights is uh

[merry pilot]

And kill power

[mild arch]

its pretty much anything goes like ts and cu

[merry pilot]

Kill power is such a volatile ability to give out

It's a fusion dance of TK and TS, with the chemical X of trial manipulation on 4 of them

[lament gulch]

We “love” vote manipulation (I really don’t)

Especially when for some reason its evaluated as on a similar power level to town KP when its so much weaker

[merry pilot]

And like

[rough cedar]

vote manipulation in general is just so

weird and inconsistent

[merry pilot]

the thing that is supposed to make TPow strong is the instant confirmation
Which works, but there's two caveats

1. It only works when you can't have a ton of them
2. It doesn't work when so many roles outside of TPow are difficult if not impossible to fake without explicit counter roles

[rough cedar]

(and also roleguessing)

[merry pilot]

Also slot swing is still an issue and thus the TPows should still be around equal power level to each other

[mild arch]

I think a town power cap of like

one unless specified otherwise

[merry pilot]

It'd have to be 2 or less

as we've seen with vanilla AA, 3 is lip service

2 works for TT modes

[mild arch]

triple trouble

[lament gulch]

I’m Your Traitor
The mode that is entirely decided by how many TPows are evil

[mild arch]

lifting the tpow cap could just be a modifier at that rate

[mild arch]

protect the power

[lament gulch]

The power when they start recruited or egotist:

Or converted n1

Or the tp are evil/dead

[mild arch]

recruits always die early in iyt

they’re cursed

[mild arch]

anyways i want tpow to be independent leaders of town

(around the same strength level)

but if the list really needs it you could uncap them

[merry pilot]

i mean

the issue with 1 (and this is why people wanted RT slots in Ranked)

is that people like to fake TPow to buy themselves time or vet bait in games without TP

which you can't really do if the cap is so rigid

[mild arch]

vanilla ranked is so incredibly tight id consider giving it two confirmed town powers

[merry pilot]

Yeah that's a player count issue

[mild arch]

i think its a rolelist issue

since nk ne ck and cpow

[lament gulch]

Its both, really

[merry pilot]

I mean what are you cutting?

3 Coven sucks

no NE sucks

and people riot about no NK

[lament gulch]

They insist on having neutrals in ranked (rolelist issue)
But 15p is just Not Enough for this games power level (playercount issue)

[merry pilot]

9v6 was always ass

it's just that Mafia was so weak that they couldn't take advantage of it

[mild arch]

especially with 50/50 of 2 kpn

[merry pilot]

it was 1/3 back then

[mild arch]

yeah

[merry pilot]

the only nk role that could kill n1 in tos1 was SK

[mild arch]

(arsonist on technicalities but thats besides the point)

[merry pilot]

but yea

9v6 is kind of a power issue and kinda isn't

like the only reason it kinda sorta worked is because Mafia was just

that bad

[mild arch]

true

[merry pilot]

now that we have a real evil faction

the flaws of 9v6 make themselves apparent

[lament gulch]

Waow
Just like the like to dislike ratio (this will become irrelevant in like an hour)

[merry pilot]

:D

the upvotes are the townies

-# Which doesn't make that much sense since the point is to nerf Town but whatever

[green cloak]

how on earth would vigi be unhealthy without hangman

but anyways, another reason for secret killers

[pale cargo]

Secret killers should NOT be base game, and if your proposed change depends on this… absolutely not

[wild yarrow]

bait used to be believable