#ButteRyBalance

13459 messages · Page 14 of 14 (latest)

daring oar
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you get damaged to 10 HP

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you enter critical at 9 HP

fallen musk
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That's still basically critical.

daring oar
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yes but it does not change the coilhead's damage interaction

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coilheads do not change your move speed or disable sprinting when they hit you either way

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and would still kill in 2 hits

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what im trying to say is "if zeekerss didn't want coilheads to instakill you" then it makes less sense for him to put them at 90 damage because then you are still instakilled if you have any other source of damage from any other point in the round

fallen musk
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Yes but you can still survive a couple of things at 50 HP.

daring oar
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weed killer is the only source of damage less than 10 HP

fallen musk
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Plus you can still survive a coil above 50 HP if it deals 50 dmg.

daring oar
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yes

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that's exactly the reason i think changing it makes sense

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lol

fallen musk
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I think coils damage being very punishing is appropriate for how simple it's gimmick is to understand.

daring oar
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if the point is "the first hit from a coilhead shouldnt kill you" then 50 damage makes that situation more unlikely to get denied from other sources of damage

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the spider inflicting 90 damage is fine because it is slow and extremely easy to kill and most of the time you shouldn't let it deal damage at all

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but like

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if a coilhead spawns behind you and you get whacked for 90 damage and you had 10 damage from bees or a butler or mask hornets or something earlier in the round

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that will just kill you instantly

fallen musk
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Yes, but the coil's gimmick is easy to understand.

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Spider damage is a lil crazy but it's an easy enemy so it's not bad either.

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I just have issues with enemies with very complex gimmicks that are very dangerous if you don't respect their arduousness.

daring oar
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that still kills in 2 hits

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it would still attack once every 0.2s so you can't just ignore it

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it means that sometimes yes, you can take damage from a coilhead, and then have a better chance of surviving combat with a thumper or similar later on in the round

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but would the coilhead dealing 50 damage instead of 90 really make you more likely to ignore it in a situation because you know "i can survive 40 extra points of damage later"

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opposed to just countering the coilhead so it doesnt have to damage you at all

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meanwhile if you get jumped by a coilhead spawning unexpectedly or losing aggro on somebody else it is less likely to instakill you

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due to being downwind of other damage sources earlier in the round

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this is why i really feel like if zeekerss intended coilheads to not be instakill that is a stronger argument for 50 damage than 90 damage

fallen musk
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I mean

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just turn around

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there's plenty of warning that one is about to hit you

daring oar
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if you "just turned around" you take 0 damage

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regardless of it inflicts 90 or 50

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so this doesnt change that interaction either

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lol

fallen musk
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Yeah but the enemy is supposed to be heavily punnishing to make up for it's simple gimmick.

daring oar
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i do not think coilheads dealing 50 damage changes anything about how you treat coilheads because there is no situation where losing 50 HP benefits you (unless you really need a burst of stamina i guess?)

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but it reduces the potential frustration of being instakilled by a coilhead due to external factors

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which is, IMO, the entire reason they deal 90 damage in the first place

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that is all im trying to say

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we don't have to agree and probably won't but that's okay

fallen musk
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We don't have to agree

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There's reasons as to why people act the way they do towards newly added entities though.

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Especially HQ players.

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A portion of them still play v56 largely because pre v60 Art is fun and still gives a lot.

versed mesa
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the artifice nerf was just so unwarranted

fallen musk
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It was to balance out the +6 items from Mineshaft.

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But it overall decreased the average of the moon.

versed mesa
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lol, that's dumb

daring oar
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well it wasn't just a nerf

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artifice also had its interior size shrunk

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it actually has better loot density than it did before

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just less max value

versed mesa
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well it's still a nerf because you're getting less (when it's not mines)

daring oar
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not saying i agree with the changes to be clear

versed mesa
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yes better loot density is nice but it doesn't outweigh having less items

daring oar
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but i dont feel like it's fair to call it a clear cut "nerf"

fallen musk
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I mean it sorta is with how atrocious Mineshaft was originally.

daring oar
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for teams that already weren't full clearing artifice it would actually make it slightly easier to find more items in less time on factory/manor

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and mineshaft is a lot better after v80+ changes

fallen musk
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Yes absolutely

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But then v73 Dine happened

versed mesa
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sure you might find items a bit easier in less time but you're still getting less of them when it's not mines
and anyways yeah, now that he's reworked mineshaft gen, i think he should undo the v60 nerf, but maybe slightly increase its interior size to compensate (but not more than what it was before)

fallen musk
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I think he should just remove the +6 item count.

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or add a +2 to both mansion and mineshaft to combat the fact they have no app.

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He could easily add it as a variable to interior settings

fallen musk
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mostly because factory is pretty bad in v81 nowadays.

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the new mineshaft and mansion really highlight the issues with factory now.

versed mesa
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it feels pretty bad to have the overall average brought down if it's not mines, then have mines be what i imagine is pretty on par with the averages pre-mines

fallen musk
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I mean it more or less just messes with moon averages

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it's also why v81 Dine is super strong because the +6 is pretty miniscule when you already have 200 items minimum

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But it really shows on moons like Assurance which become top tier when they're Mineshaft.

daring oar
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the +6 items was really nice back when mineshaft first launched

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it was actually added before he fixed tabletop items being unable to spawn in mineshafts which meant the bonus didn't even fully apply most of the time

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since you'd still have items fail to spawn and reduce the *daily count

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after the changes in v80 i feel like it is sort of weird now though

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i feel like mineshaft having a small bonus is good but +6 is overkill now that they are so much easier to traverse and distribution is a lot more even

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it's also awkward with places like offense

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offense is now earlygame meta because 81% mineshaft chance gives it a ton of extra loot on "most days"

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but then when you pull the 18% factory and miss out on 6 items it's still basically just as terrible as it was before v80

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vow was pretty competitive for earlygame in v62 because it was "basically guaranteed mineshaft" and that was +6 items

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only when you got the <1% chance manor did you miss out on that extra loot

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because he totally removed factories

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but in v64 and then again in v80 he reduced vow's mineshaft chance

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and vow's base stats (especially for factories) is basically just the same as it's been since v50 again

daring oar
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if you use my settings (opposed to manually lunarconfig'ing) then mineshaft is +4 items on adamance/vow

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similarly i think artifice uses v56 scrap values for factory/manor and v60 scrap values for mineshaft

fallen musk
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I've been considering making a mod to make moon changes rather than using Lunar but Lunar is so much more convenient.

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I do have to use BRB's moon changes to atleast remove cadavers from being garuenteed on Adam

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it's the only one I use since it's the only mod that can remove it.

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I still use some of BRB's other changes.

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I do like the expanded infestation system in BRB, but I wish I could customize the values a bit.

fallen musk
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Originally for Black Label, I wanted to go a step farther and have a unique spawn set for each interior in each moon.

thorny pike
thin comet
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A coilhead spawned on vow probably lunarconfig/dawnlib is incompatible.

fallen musk
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?

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Oh

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I mean yeah I think Lunar overrides BRB

thin comet
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I was only using enemy options and change hp and door speed

fallen musk
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Oh I think I know what happens.

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Yeah if DawnLib edits any enemies in a certain way, it utilizes it's spawnlist method which might override anything spawning related stuff BRB does

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Actually

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try disabling tags in the enemy options.

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It might be tag injection that's causing an issue.

thin comet
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It was disabled

fallen musk
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hmm

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does your lunar config edit any enemy spawn lists in any way?

thin comet
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nope

fallen musk
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Try asking in #1387434268577370324 or #1390479837025538048 about it then.

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It's most likely something DawnLib is doing because of how it handles modded enemy spawn lists.

thin comet
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I just remove it.

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Its not a big problem, my modpack is very simple

daring oar
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the big addition ive been trying for v0.6.0 has me ripping my hair out

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i had a very clean and elegant solution working except it did not sync correctly in multiplayer and i can not find any code to suggest why that is the case

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unless it's a "mystery mod conflict"

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but even checking the source of the mods i expected to interfere, i found no definitive results

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so i just had to keep building on to it like some kind of frankenstein's monster and now i am testing something which "is extremely hideous and upsets me to look at" but "maybe also finally works in multiplayer"

runic cobalt
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im really curious what it is lol

daring oar
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i am unleashing it on the world and hoping for the best

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i am almost certain there will be issues and i opted to just disable everything by default

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i think it's in a "mostly stable" state where you can definitely play real games with it but if i break something for you i am sorry

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Proportional Fire Exits honestly seems pretty good and stable, it's maybe just obsolete if you prefer Fairer Fire Exits' approach

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i was worried it'd be really buggy but i haven't encountered any issues with it (outside of issues that the normal generation already exhibited)

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the other two settings though... i wish you all the best

fallen musk
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A setting to restore Dine's v49 and v56 fire exits

daring oar
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it gives you all 3 fire exits at once to be clear

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i wanted to make it more configurable but i found implementing what i even have right now to be endlessly frustrating

fallen musk
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Oh it's all at once?

daring oar
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in the future i would like to fix it up and improve the range of customization

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yes

fallen musk
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Is it with the nav mesh?

daring oar
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no

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it's just that adding new fire exits to the existing moon scene causes an unbelievable amount of syncing issues

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and it took me so long to even get that working that i didn't finish adding the rest of the settings

fallen musk
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Ah, in TonightWeDine, I just moved the fire exit entirely.

daring oar
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yes im sure that is much easier

fallen musk
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Or atleast I think I did

daring oar
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originally i had planned for it to be like, you choose from 1 of 3 fire exits or enable all of them at once

fallen musk
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Ah yeah I did just move them.

daring oar
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but i was most interested in tackling "adding all of them at once" because i think more vanilla moons should have more entrances

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so i did that first

fallen musk
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Hmm, do you plan to move main entrance too at some point?

daring oar
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i considered it but honestly i dont think i have the patience for it

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the fire exit settings were already a massive undertaking and i havent even added everything i originally intended to do

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moving main entrance would need to be compatible with vanilla, chameleon, probably immersive entrance, and then it'd have to be flexible enough to work with any of the fire exit settings

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and i already kinda want to rework the fancy entrances setting in chameleon because it has a lot of small problems right now

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so any work i do for chameleon compatibility might wind up being wasted anyway

fallen musk
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Hmm, if you can get it to a state where it's functional and syncing, and to a state you're happy with

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I might consider making a pull to implement the main instrance transformation myself.

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With the v49 exit in my old mod, I had changed the terrain near the old hill slightly to allow the ladder to slope onto the top.

icy harbor
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whats the offense v9 fire exit

remote yacht
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hey the V9 offense Fire exit shows "exit" as entering and also has a shorter enter time then normal fire exits

daring oar
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lol i had to reuse the interior prop in order to create them at runtime

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i didnt even realize there were differences like this in testing

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probably an easy fix

thin comet
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Could you add an option so vain shrouds can spawn near the ship? Or this can affect the fox?

daring oar
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and the vain shrouds

thin comet
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these extra fire exits are amazing.

turbid basin
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Offense having a ground accessible fire exit is game changing.

daring oar
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yeah the dine one was more "just for fun"

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i like the old fire exits (especially the ship one) but with new dine it's kind of a problem having the two entrances so far away from one another

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since you need to have the car in a consistently reachable space

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it also solved a small handful of other issues

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zeekerss nerfed dine's indoor spawns a lot in v80, and even with the "consolidate" setting i think loot can still sometimes feel really dense

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having a larger map with more avenues of entry/exit means the loot can be more dispersed and more stuff can spawn on the inside without being unmanageable

daring oar
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the pipe fire exit is still handy because it can transport loot straight to ship

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and also it's guaranteed to be the exit further from main entrance

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so it can give you a headstart in getting deep on the map

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but now there are two points of entry for everybody who misses the jump

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both of them are easily accessible with cruiser

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and offense (as oppressive as it is) could really use the flexibility

fallen musk
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In a weird way, the fire was the main attraction of older Dine as it was usually an easy transfer, but main still exists and isn't that bad of a trek either.

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I don't like the modern main entrance with how easy it is to get swarmed with outdoor enemies.

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Actually on this sorta related topic.

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I was wondering if I could make a suggestion for Titan.

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A huge issue with Titan, especially on Eclipsed, is that outdoor enemies will spawn at the top, I was wondering if it's possible to prevent enemies from spawning on the top platforms atleast?

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Especially since if a giant spawns up there, it has no way of getting down, and thus just camps the entire top platform.

analog cypress
fallen musk
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Wait that's insane timing the way it spawns there

daring oar
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im not sure how easily i can do that

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i can maybe prefix SpawnEnemyGameObject to kick* giants off of the top

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so they spawn somewhere lower

fallen musk
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Yeah, I don't know of an easy way that could be done without editing the spawn command.

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Titan has so many problems.

runic cobalt
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add a uh

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denial node

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at the start of the moon

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i think that'd work

daring oar
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apparently proportional fire exits is spawning additional unusable fire exits in the interior

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when using dawnlib

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or LLL

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or something

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i think i can pretty easily fix that with a minor refactor so it should be fixed in the next vers

runic cobalt
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I've experienced this in a small pack as well

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Problem is

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DawnLib doesn't do basically anything to fire exits anymore

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Except the part that it does for multi fire exit moons

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So I actually don't know where the problem comes from lol

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I believe mods like ETO fix it atleast

daring oar
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im setting the fire exit to spawn min 0 max 0 in a prefix to Generate()

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i should probably just do it in ProcessGlobalProps() (which is what i postfixed to add my new spawn behavior)

runic cobalt
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oh

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ic lol

daring oar
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because it seemed to work ok with LLL when i was testing it

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and im almost certain im applying my changes after you are (since you're using a monomod "prefix" and im using a harmony prefix with low priority)

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i threw out those two mods as candidates just because i know they are changing fire exit count

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but i tried to make my stuff run after them

runic cobalt
daring oar
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so idk why it was being weird

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in any case im just moving it to patch at the absolute last possible minute

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which should be fine

runic cobalt
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I'd like to investigate why I'm having desynced marches on low Mod count profiles with dawnlib in em too when I get the chance
That might tell me if I'm doing something else that's weird

daring oar
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yeah i dont know what's up with the entrance desync stuff

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i changed march's fire exit order in BRB (since fire exits used to be sorted based on distance-from-main in v73, but that was "lost in translation" in v81)

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and i've never experienced entrance desync there

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not even once

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but as soon as i started adding new fire exits

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it started desyncing like crazy in testing

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and i couldnt find any code responsible for why

runic cobalt
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How do you add new fire exits btw? You got a prefab you spawn in?

daring oar
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because it doesnt seem like vanilla, ETO, LLL, or dawnlib change the entranceIDs in the way I was experiencing

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i grab the interior fire exit

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network spawn it as the scene loads

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then RPC the intended ID, isEntranceToBuilding, and audioReverbPreset

thin comet
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Fire exit desync is like the host and client enter the same firexit but it goes to differente ones?

runic cobalt
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Makes sense

daring oar
runic cobalt
daring oar
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but that also fixes the "Exit" and hold time

daring oar
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external fire exits don't display sprites

runic cobalt
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Whoops, double clicked lol

daring oar
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anyways when i just used the RPC upon spawning the fire exit

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it would cause clients to wind up with the correct IDs

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on offense

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but for some reason the host would just like

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rollback all of my changes before the round started

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and i could not find any code explaining why

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it was logging all my changes correctly (confirming they were happening) and then they would just get undone

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so i would enter the ground fire exit at offense

runic cobalt
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I wonder if the game or a mod is editing the ID's

daring oar
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and then cookie would follow me

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i'd hear the entrance open

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but he would get warped to the inside of the pipe fire exit

daring oar
runic cobalt
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If you have a seed you play out multiple times, will it always desync?

daring oar
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private void SetExitIDs(Vector3 mainEntrancePosition)
{
    int num = 1;
    EntranceTeleport[] array = (from x in Object.FindObjectsOfType<EntranceTeleport>()
        orderby (x.transform.position - mainEntrancePosition).sqrMagnitude
        select x).ToArray<EntranceTeleport>();
    for (int i = 0; i < array.Length; i++)
    {
        if (array[i].entranceId == 1 && !array[i].isEntranceToBuilding)
        {
            array[i].entranceId = num;
            num++;
        }
    }
}
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this is the only place where lethal company changes entranceId in code

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and it only applies when entranceId == 1 && !isEntranceToBuilding

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my RPC sets isEntranceToBuilding to True and then assigns entranceId

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not only in that order, but in the exact same frame

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and it was still desyncing 100% of the time with ETO installed

daring oar
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anyways i went to the ETO github

runic cobalt
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Hmmmm

daring oar
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this is the only place ETO appears to be setting entranceId

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it sets any interior fire exits that are not entranceId == 1 to 1

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in EntranceTeleport.Awake()

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so what should be happening here is

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  1. scene loads
  2. EntranceTeleportB prefab spawns on host (this is the exact same prop as interior fire exits, so entranceID is 1 and !isEntranceToBuilding)
  3. EntranceTeleport.Awake() runs from ETO and does not need to apply changes
  4. prefab is network spawned for all clients
  5. EntranceTeleport.Awake() runs for all clients and does not need to apply changes
  6. SyncFireExitRpc runs for all clients and sets up all the correct fire exit values
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and yet we got desync 100% of the time while testing with ETO

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which did not exist when ETO was disabled

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specifically on offense

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i was about to ask matty for help

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but then we tested dine and i started getting desync on there without ETO

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desync which i still can not possibly explain

daring oar
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what's happening on offense is:

  1. i change vanilla's fire exit to ID 2 (so it generates further from main entrance)
  2. i generate a new fire exit (which defaults to ID 1)
  3. i then run an RPC to sync the new fire exit to ID 1 (and clean up some interior junk so it matches the other exterior fire exits)

as i said, what we were experiencing on offense:

  1. cookie and i both got the logs confirming all of my changes were being put through (i debug logged basically every line of code related to fire exits in BRB)
  2. by the time we actually tried using the fire exits, we would both warp to opposite exits upon interaction
  3. using UnityExplorer, we discovered that cookie (the host) had the incorrect values (vanilla became 1 again, and somehow my new exit became 2) and me (the client) had the correct values, so the fire exits just swapped completely
ebon sandal
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I see that there's a weird square behind the light

daring oar
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but then when we tested on dine

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the entrance IDs were just totally desyncing all of the time

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even in vanilla

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on dine, i leave main entrance (0) and the vanilla fire exit alone (1)

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and i add two new fire exits

  • the v56 one (which is ID 2)
  • the v49 one (which is ID 3)

so they are all sorted by distance-from-main (just like OG march, and like my new offense changes)

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somehow while testing without ETO, the vanilla fire exit got set to ID 3 on my client!!! which is weird because i didnt even do anything that would cause that!!! and we previously only experienced desync with ETO enabled, and only the host experienced issues, because i always had the right values as the client!!! then that just randomly changed!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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at this point i realized bugging matty probably would not help because issues were replicating with or without his mod

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so i had to just do a bunch of ugly re-syncing stuff

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now the fire exits network spawn immediately and then the RPC runs immediately

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then in SpawnSyncedProps the host runs the RPC again on all of the fire exits (vanilla and new, only if im applying changes, so unaffected levels dont have to do this)

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and then in SetExitIDs all of the clients individually set the fire exit values again if they were incorrect (again, only for affected levels)

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and by re-applying my changes at all 3 of those steps i "sidestepped" the issue and it started to work in game

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but i still have no idea what was even causing the issue to begin with

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and i didn't "fix" anything

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i just made my changes more aggressive

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anyways it was very frustrating

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the only two hypotheses i have for what's wrong are

  1. some mod i dont know about is touching entranceId and causing problems (i think this is extremely unlikely)
  2. apparently it's not safe to NetworkObject.Spawn() objects in SceneManager.sceneLoaded and then immediately call an RPC on their NetworkObjectReference, because that somehow causes the RPC to change values from entirely different network objects for different clients (this seems totally impossible, but otherwise I can't explain how cookie and I had flipped fire exits on offense)
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our logs confirmed the RPC was running successfully

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so calling Spawn and an RPC on the same network object in the same frame as the host would appear to follow proper order-of-execution

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the object would spawn for clients and then it would succeed at grabbing the NetworkObjectReference immediately

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but like i said i can't possibly explain what else is changing those entrance IDs

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anyways

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that's all the information i have if it is "of any use at all"

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wish i knew what the fuck was going on

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but oh well

daring oar
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im not sure why

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but fire exits have weird lighting like that after v80+

ebon sandal
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oooh

analog cypress
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just wanted to say that for some reason I got fire exits next to each other 4 times in a row with proportional fire exits

image.png image.png
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specifically on Mineshaft

daring oar
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even with dine's 1.95x size multiplier i still got a seed that only generated 3 fire exits

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mineshaft just generates so few valid areas for fire exits to spawn

daring oar
versed mesa
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evil offense

remote yacht
thorny pike
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please man i just starting liking offense this update

fallen musk
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Heya, with Dine you should probably extend a bit of the sound zones to v49 reach the one fire exit

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I did that with TonightWeDine since the fire exit is in an area of the map that's not normally considered in gameplay

stuck vigil
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Hi. I've discovered that "giantSnowSight" patch is not working, because it patches the wrong method.

Replace this:
[HarmonyPatch(typeof(EnemyAI), nameof(EnemyAI.GetAllPlayersInLineOfSight))]

With this:
[HarmonyPatch(typeof(EnemyAI), nameof(EnemyAI.GetAllPlayersInLineOfSightNonAlloc), typeof(float), typeof(int), typeof(Transform), typeof(float), typeof(int))]

daring oar
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lol

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i totally forgot he switched that method in v80

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sorry

daring oar
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what do you mean by "sound zone"?

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i guess i can check the tonightwedine source

fallen musk
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It's quiet around where the v49 exit is

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Because it wasn't intended to be really explored in the new layout

remote yacht
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With the newest version on scandals tweaks the extra fire exits just dont load and its just normal.

daring oar
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yes scandal's tweaks made a breaking change in v1.1.9

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i am waiting for nuget to update so i can rebuild

dire sedge
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oh what happened?

daring oar
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until the thunderstore nuget provider fetches v1.1.9 i can't patch the new class

dire sedge
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ahhh i see

daring oar
# daring oar

at this point he has confirmed he totally redesigned the exterior of offense

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so the cool v9 fire exit will soon be a totally useless relic

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all over again

versed mesa
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I kinda of did it as part of my cleanup of ST

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the namespace will not change from here on most likely

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If it does I will inform you tho

daring oar
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i've already released an update

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so it should be fine

versed mesa
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Ah, didn't realise haha

fallen musk
daring oar
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the exterior was totally replaced

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he directly compared it to march's rework

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i really hope he did something about the overall gameplay

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march is significantly better in v80, one of my new favorites, and all he did was redesign the exterior and shrink the dungeon size

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but offense has actually problematic gameplay and even if the new exterior is great i think it will still be a huge turnoff

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dine used to totally suck in v49 and got a huge glow-up in v50 and if we get the same for offense in v85 that would be lovely

fallen musk
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Just as long as it's reasonably playable

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I do like the current state that Offense is in, we have three pretty viable free moons to start with right now, two that are mediocre but okay, and then Adamance

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Lately I've been thinking Lethal would benefit from a diminishing returns feature, the only problem though is paid moons.

daring oar
# fallen musk I do like the current state that Offense is in, we have three pretty viable free...

i guess it is kind of obvious (since these are the things i change in this mod) but my problems with offense are:

  1. most of the loot value comes from mineshaft's +6 items just generating an abnormal amount of total items compared to other free moons
  • individual items are still heavy two handed junk and quite low value, as opposed to something like assurance which has fewer items but they are individually much more appealing
  • also means that factory days (20% chance) feel terrible because they are almost unchanged from v73
  1. trap spawns were increased in v80 for reasons i can not explain
  • did anybody really want more traps than v73 already generated???
  • this feels "double bad" because the vastly increased mineshaft chance means sending somebody to the ship to watch codes and turn off turrets sucks. they basically cant participate for the entire day because of the "no signal" screen and the alternative is to "just deal with" all the turrets
  1. terrible monster combos
  • you get lots of killables like thumpers, snare fleas, spiders, hoarders, etc. implying the moon is designed for players who thrive at combat
  • but then you also get a bunch of coil-heads and hygroderes, neither of which can be killed and are extremely oppressive in mineshafts due to the claustrophobic tiles (dead ends are a death sentence)
  • rare spawns like the bracken dont really match the "aggressive lifeforms" motif and are hard to deal with in conjunction with coil spam
fallen musk
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I think the low Bracken spawn rate has to do with the fact it's an arid climate moon.

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Plus if there's one thing I do like Offense for, it's low Bracken spawn rate.

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But with v80, I don't feel like the monster combos really show on Offense that much with the spawn rate adjustments.

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Even if a team isn't the greatest at monster killing, if they loot effectively, they can get a lot out before any sort of real trouble starts usually.

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Loot count wise, I just blame Zeekerss possibly poor foresight. The +6 on Mineshaft really shouldn't be a thing anymore given that Mineshaft is actually playable now, but in return some of the moon's loot counts should be increased a little to compensate.

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Maybe not +6 straight up for all moons, but a little bit for moons that had somewhat of a Mineshaft chance.

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Though with Offense, I do think it should have that +6 by default if the mineshaft extra loot were to be removed because it's a medium tiered moon.

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One of the largest issues with vanilla Lethal is that if you're going for most possible value, you're dissuaded from going to certain moons because they're less profitable, it's why pretty much any HQ squad will either go Assurance, Vow, or Offense in v81.

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It's why I think a diminishing returns system with possibly a weather multiplier system on top of that could help with varying what moons player head towards, provided it's balanced reasonably to where players could just route between the paid moons.

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The only issue with that system are how expensive paid moons are.

daring oar
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for what it's worth i do think offense got way better in v80 because now it is actually the most profitable free moon

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the payout finally matches the risk

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for the first time since "before v9"

daring oar
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i think mineshaft bonus is okay but +6 is a lot

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it should be a lot smaller now

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maybe something percentage based too

daring oar
daring oar
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not that it should have a higher spawn rate

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honestly i wish moons had more specialized spawns in general because there's a ton of enemy variety in lethal company but a lot of moons are getting kneecapped in terms of variety because the same massive group of enemies spawns everywhere

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and the minute differences in spawn chance really do not change much in the long run

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there is really no reason coilheads should exist on vow with the bracken being the top spawn

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similarly, there is no reason brackens belong on offense

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hoarding bugs spawn everywhere except for rend

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same for thumpers

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it's okay when it's just one or two enemies but when literally every enemy except for like... "the latest 5 enemies to be added" spawn on every moon it feels kind of excessive

fallen musk
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I think it's more so Lethal's enemy variety is weird to say to least

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Hoarding bugs and thumpers are fairly straight forward enemies.

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The issue is that the other half of Lethal's enemy roster are enemies that either aren't killable (and do a lot of damage) or the means of killing them are very obtuse.

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The only lategame enemies that lack this issue are Nutcrackers and Masked somehow.

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(well Masked are fairly easy actually but still)

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It might be just out of necessity that Zeekerss needs to make enemies that aren't straightfoward because there's the pitfall of potentially making an enemy that's just The Thumper 2

fallen musk
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That does mean on average a paid moon quota will be around 600-800 credits.

daring oar
fallen musk
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But it also demands that squads do not fumble to risk getting screwed over by the death penalty.

daring oar
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he mentioned before the reason it took him so long to finally add the mineshaft is because he wanted to avoid making new interiors feel "redundant in any way"

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factories being claustrophobic, manors being grand and spacious, and then he finally committed to mines because the "organically claustrophobic caves" felt unique and interesting enough

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i think he cares a lot about new stuff always presenting a totally fresh and unseen experience

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i.e. even for monsters with a lot of overlap like bees and sapsucker (being "area denial enemies that generate extra money") there's way more differences with how they interact with the game overall

daring oar
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i think it'd be okay if the diminishing returns don't kick in until you spend a full quota somewhere

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at least for the paid moons

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rend, dine, and titan are all priced so similarly you can kinda be flexible with where you choose to go

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though artifice sticks out as an issue because it is the only moon in its price tier

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liquidation would "maybe have fixed that" but it's hard to say with how little is known about liquidation in general

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then there's also the issue of dine being literally more profitable than artifice as of v73 but also being priced as the second cheapest premium moon

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it's all really messy

fallen musk
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Yeah like Dine would definitely need to change for a system like this to work.

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The idea I had in mind was that a moon would restock in only like 2 days tops of not playing it, and if weather multipliers are a thing you can potentially route towards moons with weathers to profit off of them more than you would otherwise.

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But of course, this doesn't work with Dine because it's scrap count is so insane.

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I hate that vanilla Dine practically requires Cruiser to even be feasibly profitable.

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Also ngl the body parts stuff is just disgusting, I hate it.

daring oar
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the new dine scrap has sort of grown on me but the flies are a bit ick

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im generally unhappy with the cruiser but this is a conversation ive had a million times and will not bore everyone with again

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also im much happier with the cruiser after making changes to it anyway

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(even though like 80% of those changes were just "reverting unnecessary v70 changes")

fallen musk
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I actually agree with cruiser being nerfed since it's too overpowered, atleast on any moon that isn't vanilla Dine

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Jet + TZP will always be more infinitely interesting than Cruiser jumping

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I'm largely suspecting Zeekerss will nerf the cruiser at some point, but there might be a looming fear that there will be a community crashout if it is.

turbid basin
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Cruiser jumping is lame, driving is fun.

thin comet
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niche detail for info jetpack if No utility belt is true

20260529133422_1.jpg
remote yacht
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had too upload this to yt cus discord sucks but can someone explain what happened here

dire sedge
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looks like they're both being assigned the same entrance ID somehow

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do you have your logs for this (i think debug logging might need to be enabled)? that might be helpful for fixing it

remote yacht
thin comet
dire sedge
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but it's not being swapped in this clip it's being set to the same fire exit

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unless the language used was not exact i guess

daring oar
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fuckin hate this fire exit thing

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anyways

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[Error :ButteRyBalance] Failed to sync entrance teleport #1
[Warning:ButteRyBalance] Fire exit #2 is currently ID 0 on this client!!
[Debug :ButteRyBalance] Synced fire exit "EntranceTeleportB" @ (10.53, 15.42, -165.06) (ID: 2, Entrance: True)

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this is almost definitely where the issue occurred

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but im not sure why

dire sedge
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[Info :chboo1.lethalcompany.hqfixes] HQFixes: Attempting to patch EntranceTeleport.TeleportPlayer
[Info :chboo1.lethalcompany.hqfixes] Found original!
[Info :chboo1.lethalcompany.hqfixes] Using specific postfix!
[Info :chboo1.lethalcompany.hqfixes] HQFixes: Attempting to patch PlayerControllerB.TeleportPlayer
[Info :chboo1.lethalcompany.hqfixes] Found original!
[Info :chboo1.lethalcompany.hqfixes] Using specific postfix!
[Info :chboo1.lethalcompany.hqfixes] HQFixes: Attempting to patch PlayerControllerB.Update
[Info :chboo1.lethalcompany.hqfixes] Found original!
[Warning: HarmonyX] AccessTools.Method: Could not find method for type HQFixes.HQFixesv49 and name PlayerControllerB_Update_Prefix and parameters
[Info :chboo1.lethalcompany.hqfixes] Found a postfix!
i wonder if this is messing with something

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im not sure what hqfixes does though

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so shrug

thin comet
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I found a seed where it only generates one place to put a fire exit on Offense

daring oar
thin comet
daring oar
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was it mineshaft

thin comet
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yes

daring oar
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there is a "nonzero" chance your mineshaft just didnt generate any other fire exits then

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proportional fire exits enables all fire exit props if the number of possible spots is less than or equal to the required amount

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fairer fire exits also does something similar i believe

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the log would say how many props total exist

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if it is 1 total prop that is "just a mineshaft thing"

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only way i could fix it is adding more candidates for fire exit props to generate (which i have considered but we will see)

daring oar
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anybody have any seeds which had a key spawn inside of a mineshaft cave?

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i have made some changes to try and prevent that from occurring

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but i dont have anything to test it right now