#ButteRyBalance

1 messages · Page 13 of 1

daring oar
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i can adjust the outdoor spawns maybe but i dont have any strong inclinations with it myself

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so id need feedback from others if it feels "good" or not

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i can add some stuff to it

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also i have no strong feelings on embrion i just figured most people didnt really care about the settings

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if you want it back ill bring it back

shut torrent
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The shrunk interior for rend and adjusted enemies for embrion would be nice to have back imo

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But that's just me

daring oar
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im pretty ok with shrinking rend because that also increases enemy density

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so it's kind of a "balanced buff"

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i just didnt think it was as important anymkre

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but i will put it baxk

shut torrent
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I assume you removed masked on dine because they just didn't fit the playstyle or moon theme anymore?

daring oar
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also yes i keep forgetting to look into this but it's on the to do list

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i just didnt want to keep delaying 0.4

shut torrent
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Completely understandable

daring oar
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and they were so rare on dine + kind of made the tier 3s blend together more than they needed to

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since zeekerss is moving towards having more unique spawns in different places i just thought it felt better not to muddy the water like that

shut torrent
vapid pier
shut torrent
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That makes sense

vapid pier
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this is something easily done with Lunar Config

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I assume

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and LLL too probably

daring oar
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the main reason i liked masked on dine was so theyd use the mineshaft elevator Lol but then he ganked mineshaft on dine

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so

shut torrent
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Yeah

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Just to mention it here, I really hope more experimental and fun options like bigger on the inside get considered in the future for the various moons

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Since that option alone made embrion that much more fun and interesting

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I once did a entire save with a bunch of friends where we just went to embrion with bigger on the inside and it was peak

raven patrol
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That actually does sound pretty fun

unreal ginkgo
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Thank ya

thin comet
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Could you add an option to revert to night vision value from v80 beta?

daring oar
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i plan for it to be part of v0.4.1

shut torrent
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Oh, one more thing I forgot to mention

raven patrol
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Into the Darkness!

daring oar
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yeah i wanted to ship it with the pro flashlight change

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but i added the flashlight change as like the second to last thing before i did the release and ran out of time to do the night vision thing

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the flashlight change almost didnt even make it in

shut torrent
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Something I was thinking could be pretty cool would be if bigger on the inside increases the price of embrion a bit (say to about half of rend's price, so 275 credits)

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Since the bottom line is pretty high and you can get a fair bit of loot out

daring oar
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yeah i was kind of under the impression with how well cookie and i were doing

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in a random duo

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it's actually probably pretty strong and could do with a price bump

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i wanted to add another setting to do the opposite

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make embrion $60 so you can go there for quota 1 if you ignore equipment

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but that + bigger on the inside is probably super duper busted

raven patrol
shut torrent
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So you'd effectively have a cap on how much you can get out if you wait to transfer or don't find a lot right away

raven patrol
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Is vanilla Embrion more profitable than Adamance or Offense though? It would need to be for that to be worth it

shut torrent
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Not really

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Most of the time bottom lines there (in vanilla anyway, which has inaccurate bottom line info) are about 400, maybe 600 sometimes

raven patrol
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I guess if you just want a challenge, which is what Embrion already is

daring oar
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adamance will pull a bit further ahead because of bees and sapsucker (and maybe nutcrackers?)

shut torrent
daring oar
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but if you could visit embrion for cheaper it would probably be a pretty fun option if you just want a challenge

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i dont really expect $60 to make it "good" but it will make it at least "less antagonistic" to visit for fun

raven patrol
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I think with the $60 change you could keep the loot the same but make the interior super chill (lower spawn curve or remove more difficult entities). That way the interior is uber free but you gotta deal with the Old Birds with no equipment

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BTW for “bigger on the inside”, assuming it is not just hardcoded, it would be hype if you could make a config that lets us apply its properties to any moon. Maybe even make it a random event like Infeststions

shut torrent
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I was playing around with dine a little bit as well with the consolidate option, and I do think it should be a little bit more profitable as well

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I consistently got 1000 to 1100 days, and while on rend I got mostly the same, it had a higher chance of being 1200 or 1300 and I even got quite a few days where the profit spiked up to 1500 or 1700

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Maybe having 45% or 50% of items spawn instead of 40% would help things a bit

fallen musk
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I didn't realize just how bad Adamance gotten in v81.

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I already don't really like it, and I like it a lot less now since a lot of shortcuts got patched.

raven patrol
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The outdoor curve got lowered and outdoor power was lowered tbf

fallen musk
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By 2

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That's not that much.

raven patrol
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4 less Baboon Hawks

fallen musk
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4 baboons is still just as deadly as 8.

raven patrol
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idk

fallen musk
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Baboons aren't really the major issue.

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Giants are a massive problem on Adamance if they spawn near ship or in the pit.

raven patrol
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True

fallen musk
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Atleast you can still use ladder from fire exit pit.

runic cobalt
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I wonder if the diversity stuff would be giving less giants

raven patrol
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Yeah that is the strat

thin comet
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You can still use the tree path from fire exit

fallen musk
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Yes but only with low weight.

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You can't get heavier items up the hill without a ladder.

daring oar
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spawn rates are wayyyy lower

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eclipses will probably feel just about as bad as they always have

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and routing is more limited + requires more planning and actual tool usage

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so that's definitely where the new difficulty lies

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honestly i don't "love" the new adamance but i do feel like im a lot more inclined to play it since it's chilled out a lot since v73

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but it's a pretty significant change to its identity and i get why not everyone is happy about that

unreal ginkgo
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Yeah, I miss chaotic, profitable Adamance

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It was a high risk, good reward kind of moon, and I appreciated it for that

raven patrol
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Hopefully v85 shows us what Zeekerss is cooking

shut torrent
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It's just more limited than before

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And I haven't full experimented with it yet to really push the capabilities of the moon

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Mostly because of the fucking 100% cadaver spawn rate

wind spoke
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I agree

unreal ginkgo
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I'm referring to how Adamance was intended to play then

thin comet
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what you think about the maneater nerf?

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from b80

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v80

daring oar
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this seems like an accident but i havent looked at the mechanics behind it yet

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in any case maneaters triggering on flashlights and dropped scrap is pretty annoying

fallen musk
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Maneater is just a terribly coded enemy.

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I'm a little more convinced that it taking only 1 damage from any damage source is a bug.

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Now that the cadaver bloom exists and has the same damage thing.

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A big issue with the maneater too is that how it works just isn't very clear either.

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Like the whole "father" mechanic.

daring oar
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in any case it's definitely intended for cadavers

fallen musk
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If it is, it's not very fun.

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Not that cadaver blooms are much a problem, or well the actual problem with the enemy.

daring oar
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it anything it just doesnt stick out to me because with maneaters being "taxonomically close to cockroaches" it makes sense they are an absolute affront to the concept of mortality

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but i dont have a strong opinion on it either

fallen musk
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It just leads people to coming up with cheese strats to get rid of it efficiently.

daring oar
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someone might have reported it as a bug but if it has been it's probably buried now

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im not sure zeekerss has ever weighed in

fallen musk
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I mean, it would be nice if he did fix it because the enemy is way too hostile otherwise unless you know cheeses.

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It's clear Zeekerss doesn't like cheesing either but I don't get why making it killable via shotgun would be too much.

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There's already so much shit you gotta worry about.

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I'm okay with Zeekerss patching out cheeses if he provides a more sensical alternative to the problem.

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I think the "parent" mechanic could be simplified to where anyone can be the "parent" of the maneater, not just the first person it sees.

daring oar
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well i think, in effect, anybody can calm it down if it's crying

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it just squirms in your hands if it's held for too long by someone it doesnt like

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so you have to set it down and let it follow you instead

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not exactly ideal but i dont think it is without counterplay at least

crude pier
fallen musk
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Well the adult anyway.

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I think it would be a little overkill (and really edgy) if it would work on the baby.

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but then again Lethal is also kinda gorey.

thin comet
daring oar
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it was an explicit nerf

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maneaters are a lot less sensitive to quieter sounds

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this is a good change i am totally happy with

daring oar
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i dont think it really compromises its identity or mechanics either

raven patrol
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Maneater is enough of a problem already

unreal ginkgo
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Nutcracker buff idea: Nutcrackers that aren't popped open don't take damage from spike traps

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Would you also mind giving me the values of this for Assurance and Offense, since it's not compatible with LunarConfig?

image.png
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And the value of this on Titan as well?

image.png
naive mesa
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Nutcracker buff request: Nutcrackers rarely spawn with glasses equipped, and then can see you without you moving.

daring oar
daring oar
daring oar
unreal ginkgo
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Thank ya :p

cloud rover
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could you give them a full auto shotgun too while you're at it?

shut torrent
daring oar
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quieter noises need to be much closer or they ignore it

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so you don't trigger it as easily as "just clicking a flashlight next to it" or "dropping items on the floor while it's in the room"

shut torrent
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Interesting

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I did not know about this

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Did anything else get rebalanced that didn't get mentioned in the patch notes

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(other than thumper/hoarding bug buffs and scrap weight changes)

daring oar
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i dont remember what all was in all the patch notes and this is too open ended of a question for me to really answer

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lol

ripe tartan
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Is there an easy way to verify that Nerf Foggy Weather is working? i just cant tell a difference when changing it, I could see objects from the same distance either way

daring oar
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vanilla forces foggy weather to always have 4 or more distance

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i just force it to have 7 or more distance

ripe tartan
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all good, im gonna nerf it a bit harder with LethalSponge, its just unfortunate that Sponge reduced the density of the fog so it makes its look "spotty"

cloud halo
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Wondering if you have made this or if someone else has, as I still want to read up on the v80 moon changes

daring oar
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i never got around to it sorry

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i can summarize the big ticket items

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give me just a second

cloud halo
daring oar
# cloud halo Alright, I'm mainly wanting to know what changed on Assurance as I still feel li...

experimentation

  • reduced risk level from B to D
  • added backwater gunkfish as an extremely rare spawn

assurance

  • increased risk level from D to C
  • sharply reduced spawn chance for maneater
  • added backwater gunkfish as a rare spawn
  • slightly increased spawn chance for giant sapsucker

vow

  • reduced chance of mineshaft interior
  • added backwater gunkfish as a moderately common spawn
  • added feiopar as an extremely common spawn
  • reduced spawn chance for eyeless dogs, earth leviathan, and baboon hawks
  • added old birds as an extremely rare spawn
  • slightly reduced spawn chance for tulip snakes
  • sharply reduced spawn chance for giant sapsucker
  • outside diversity now limited to 3 points

march

  • sharply reduced interior size (<60% of previous)
  • reduced spawn chance for bracken
  • reduced spawn chance for thumpers
  • added backwater gunkfish as an extremely common spawn
  • added feiopar as a moderately common spawn
  • sharply reduced spawn chance for tulip snakes
  • inside diversity now limited to 8 points
  • outside diversity now limited to 3 points

adamance

  • reduced scrap count from 16-18 to 14-16
  • reduced chance of manor interior
  • sharply reduced chance of mineshaft interior
  • sharply reduced inside spawn rates
  • cadaver growths are guaranteed to spawn as soon as the ship lands
  • sharply reduced spawn chance of several rare enemies (girl, nutcrackers, jester, masked, maneater)
  • removed butlers
  • increased spawn chance of barber and hygrodere
  • reduced spawn chance of bracken, thumpers, hoarding bugs
  • added backwater gunkfish as a moderately rare spawn
  • outside power level decreased from 13 to 11
  • reduced spawn chance for forest giants
  • increased spawn chance for old birds
  • inside diversity now limited to 12 points
  • outside diversity now limited to 4 points
  • flooded weather no longer moves downward over time
  • added a lot of spike traps
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offense

  • increased scrap count from 14-17 to 14-18
  • sharply reduced chance of factory interior
  • sharply increased chance of mineshaft interior
  • sharply increased spawn rate for turrets and landmines
  • sharply reduced spawn chance for maneater
  • added backwater gunkfish as a moderately common spawn
  • outside diversity limited to 4 points

rend

  • added cadavers as a very rare spawn
  • added backwater gunkfish as a rare spawn
  • added feet (from dine) as an exceptionally rare spawn

dine

  • sharply reduced chance of mineshaft interior
  • inside power reduced from 16 to 10
  • increased spawn chance for snare flea, hygrodere, bracken
  • sharply reduced spawn chance for butler
  • reduced spawn chance for barber
  • added backwater gunkfish as a very rare spawn
  • added cadaver growths as a moderately common spawn
  • sharply reduced outside spawn rates
  • outside spawn power increased from 7 to 9
  • sharply reduced spawn chance for eyeless dog and old birds
  • greatly increased spawn chance for earth leviathan

titan

  • added backwater gunkfish as a common spawn

artifice

  • sharply reduced spawn chance for maneater
  • added backwater gunkfish as a rare spawn
  • added cadaver growths as an extra rare spawn
  • added foggy weather
  • the chance for many, many spike traps to spawn
  • the chance for many, many landmines to spawn

embrion

  • nerfed foggy weather
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i believe that basically captures the gist of everything

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i kinda threw this together quickly

cloud halo
# daring oar __experimentation__ - reduced risk level from B to D - added backwater gunkfish ...

Thank you!

I will say some of these changes make me wonder what the hell Zeekerss was thinking, Assurance is basically the same, Mineshaft is just rare on everything now, Adamance is now just green Offense, I would be fine with harder moons if the easy moons (vow and ass) weren't just free scrap with no danger
I guess I just fell in love with ButteRyBalance's moon changes so much that I can't play without them, they fixed all the issues I had with the moons, and I guess still do

daring oar
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honestly for the most part i am happier with moon balance in v80 than previous versions

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there are some changes i really really do not agree with

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buffing traps on offense was totally unnecessary and just feels bad

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assurance remaining exactly as it has always been really mitigates a lot of the appeal of visiting other moons

cloud halo
cloud halo
daring oar
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and i dont like how the mineshafts basically just randomly replace factory on all moons

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in v80 the only moon which has more than 50% chance of mineshaft is offense and even it has a ~18% chance to be factory still

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artifice is just narrowly below 50% (it's at like 49%)

cloud halo
daring oar
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i think it was nice that there were mineshaft moons and factory moons, and they were separate experiences in the earlygame

cloud halo
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I agree with you on everything you have said so far

cloud halo
daring oar
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but for the most part i do think the game is in a much better state than it used to be

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it's nice that vow has more outdoor variety, since it's roughly 50/50 with giants/feiopar now

cloud halo
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I loved having some moons be Mineshaft and some moons be Factory, I was not the most happy when it was just random

daring oar
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new march is really cool i love it

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offense being the new "best" earlygame moon is crazy because that's never been the case before

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it's still offense so you still suffer for going there

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but it does technically have better profits than any other moon now

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if you can dela with that

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assurance is just much much safer

cloud halo
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New March is great, out of all the changes March is a lot of fun to play on now

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I kinda just want Assurance to be nerfed into the ground at this point the moon is just too good, I honestly wouldn't care about any other change if ass just got killed on the spot

cloud halo
daring oar
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the big problem with offense now is just

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there's so many traps that you almost need somebody to stand back and play terminal

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but the terminal player can't use the radar if everybody else is in the caverns, so they get to sit around doing nothing for most of the day, only cleaning up traps in the concrete zones when loot needs to be extracted

obtuse wave
daring oar
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yes

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offense can never "just win"

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the fact it was buffed at all is honestly quite incredible

obtuse wave
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at least it got some buffs

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but the ammount of hazards on it out weights the new buffs

daring oar
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oh yeah sorry i still havent decided what i want to do about cadavers on adamance

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i released v0.4.1 before i settled on it

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maybe i will end up making a v0.4.2 just for that 😝

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zeekerss gave cadavers a really high spawn chance on adamance but the problem is that adamance just barely spawns anything until like 3 pm

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with the new indoor curve

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so the ideas im kind of tossing around in my head are like:

  1. cadavers have an 80% chance to spawn every 2 hours, starting at 9 AM (so very close to the current state of adamance, just not so much "there are cadavers in main entrance before you even leave your ship")
  2. cadavers spawn like normal enemies, but enemy spawn rates are greatly increased to compensate
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not sure if there is a preference between these two

cloud halo
daring oar
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i see. that's sort of unfortunate because right now i think im really leaning towards the latter

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it would give adamance back a bit more of its pre-v80 identity

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being a little bit crazy on the inside (obviously not like offense, but something a little less "totally chilled out")

jagged nexus
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Thank you lol, the change to get rid of this never made sense to me

glass yacht
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goodbye to forest keeper legs

dire sedge
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im kinda on the fence about it i think both could be interesting playstyles for adamance so spawn rates being increased could be cool

daring oar
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i've just finished updating the wiki

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provided I haven't missed anything (it's possible I have) it should now be up to date with v0.4.1

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the infestation page needs a rewrite which I do not have time to do

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so I just removed the commentary section instead (for now)

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anyways. until v0.4.2

dire sedge
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yay!!!

runic cobalt
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@daring oar completely fine if not, but would you be down to update safesoloscrap for the config to allow for more players than just, and also allow keeping apparatus?

daring oar
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lol

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i meant to do it forever ago and just never got around to it

runic cobalt
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:p

daring oar
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i guess if there is actually demand i will just do it

runic cobalt
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we were using it in a big playtest alongside a mod with @late pagoda, i didnt see the config so i didnt realise there was a player limit i had to change lmao

daring oar
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in the next version im gonna be increasing the cruiser price back to $400

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but honestly after the big cruiser rework im thinking i will wind up setting the default price to $700

runic cobalt
jagged nexus
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I ended up just migrating the balances I like from this mod into Lunar Config since you do so much lol

runic cobalt
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but i guess jetpack is a lot easier

daring oar
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i think $370 is "fine" for the v55 cruiser but definitely not for v70 cruiser and honestly i dont even think $700 is unfair for v69 cruiser

jagged nexus
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Btw Buttery since you're here, your patch for the giants and fox will apparently only work with the Vanilla Cruiser and not Custom Vehicles such as the ScanVan, dunno if there's a better way to implement them though lol

daring oar
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right now i just see myself getting bored everytime we reach the midgame because we spend $370 on a cruiser by like quota 2 and just have an indestructible vehicle we can use for the rest of the playthrough

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we generally never lose the cruiser unless we wipe

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and while i do really think the cruiser is fun i think it needs to present more of a challenge to upkeep so that it doesn't completely mitigate the fun of running around on the surface

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if it was $700 to replace (you'd still get the warranty car) i think it would at least push you to acquiring one later in the run, and also make it more of an issue to afford if you lose it (which would be helped by decreasing the durability significantly as well)

jagged nexus
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Speaking of I saw you have a setting to make the game darker like in the first beta, I think he kept it darker overall right but did he make it less dark after the first v80 beta?

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I haven't payed too close attention but the game is certainly dark without flashlights

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lol

daring oar
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i have a lot of plans for jetpack and cruiser in v0.5.0 (i have said this before) but i think for v0.4.2 i will just set the default price back to $400

daring oar
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before the cruiser buffs in v70 we liked to use jetpacks to fly one-handed stuff

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and we just used the cruiser for two-handers since we were never completely confident it would make it back

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the cruiser is just too ironclad in v70 to make it matter that much nwo lol

jagged nexus
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I do imagine the Cruiser change was cus before the buffs people still preferred Jetpacks outside of modded moons and such lol

daring oar
jagged nexus
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But yeah kinda insane how much he buffed it

daring oar
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he has re-implemented a bunch of cruiser code for the v55 cruiser and scanvan (to my knowledge, anyway) and he has a very specific experience in mind with how he is designing them

daring oar
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v73 was bright, v80's first beta was really dark, and v80's second beta onwards is "somewhere in between"

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my setting restores the 2nd option

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the original v80 darkness

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if you find that you still aren't incentivized enough to use flashlights

jagged nexus
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I think he prolly lit it up slightly, cus in the first beta people kept going "Why is it so dark?" peepoGiggles

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I thought it was a good change though

daring oar
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im sort of mixed on it

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i do feel like im not really incentivized enough to use a flashlight in v81

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because even with reduced night vision it's still good enough for 99% of cases

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it's mainly just pit jumps and steam leaks and stuff (which were always a problem even before v80)

jagged nexus
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Yeah

daring oar
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but the main reason im not 100% sold on the original values is because then flashlights feel almost essential

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and i strongly prefer using a walkie talkie in my utility slot because v80+ is the first time we've seriously been using walkies since like v45

jagged nexus
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He also did the same with flashlight price though after the first beta. It was 32 in the first beta, then he dropped it to 28 which is an inbetween of v73 and the first beta cus it was 25 before

jagged nexus
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I added Lethal Phones cus it is very fun lol

versed mesa
versed mesa
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the way the forest giant insta-kill works is by going off how much damage it's taking, and if it's 12 it converts that to an insta

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speaking of the fox, i will probably make them invincible to my ScanVan, i kinda forgot about that

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my v55 car will probably retain this functionality though, 'cause authenticity, ya feel

jagged nexus
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You think you can also make them Invincible again in Cruiser Improved? I feel like it would be better fitting so Buttery doesn't need to patch it out with this mod

versed mesa
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i don't think that fits into CruiserImproved

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making something unkillable is not an "improvement"

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and this is a side effect of allowing the car to kill small enemies again

jagged nexus
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Fair

daring oar
versed mesa
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ah, yeah, fair

daring oar
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i do think blacklisting certain vanilla enemies probably makes sense (but im not sure the fox is one of them, because it's unclear if zeekerss intends for them to be killable)

versed mesa
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i thought Digg already patched this?

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unless zeeks changed something with bees

daring oar
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that looks like it should work but i was definitely bouncing the cruiser off of bees yesterday

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maybe i was mistaken about us having cruiser improved on that profile

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i think it also hits tulip snakes

versed mesa
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hrmmmm

image.png
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yeah this should, in theory, work

daring oar
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which is "maybe fine" because you can kill tulip snakes but it also makes it kind of annoying when you have tulips on your head and you try to get in the cruiser

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in the back

versed mesa
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oh my fucking god speaking of tulip snakes

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me and thistle were playing yesterday on assurance and i was trying to take the v55 cruiser to main

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i tried pushing it

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a tulip snake touched it

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and it exploded

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and it landed up side down flush right against the wall at main

versed mesa
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probably something along the lines of

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if enemy is FlowerSnakeAI && clingingToPlayer return false

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psuedo but you get my point

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i don't like having to specify enemies in code, but if i need to do it i will

versed mesa
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the one thing i did add to the v55 car that isn't entirely authentic is the ability for just the driver to die in the event of a crash and the windshield not breaking if that happens

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this only ever "happens" in vanilla due to ownership change (or something along those lines)

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but it was just so funny i had to implement it intentionally

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the thresholds for this sort of collision is the same as killing both front passengers and breaking the window

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but it just chooses randomly which one to do

thin comet
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Maybe you could increase masked health to match players health. Like 5hp

naive mesa
thin comet
daring oar
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the latest feature i've been working on for v0.4.2 has me ripping my hair out because i can not comprehend for what purpose it is not working

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but i promise once it's done it should be really cool

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a very non-controversial "vanilla would do this" change

runic cobalt
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I'm pretty curious now

versed mesa
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me too

daring oar
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over a week

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but i have finally published v0.4.2

dire sedge
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hooray!!!

vapid pier
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and we cheered

dire sedge
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yes Everyone cheered

thin comet
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Is 600 a good price for the cruiser? with cruiser improved and butterybalance changes

versed mesa
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if you're using CruiserImproved then the car becomes even more overpowered

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it's up to you at the end of the day ig

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butterybalance doesn't really nerf the cruiser yet, but when it does you might be able to make a more informed decision

vestal nest
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we have never used the car since v55

versed mesa
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v55 was a pile of garbage yes

#

it also do be my favourite iteration of the car, hence why i made the version55 mod

#

but if you aren't aware since v70 the car is, well

#

it's basically indestructible, among many things

#

in vanilla atleast

#

combine that with CruiserImproved and it becomes even more overpowering

versed mesa
#

which is sad, but it do be true

thin comet
versed mesa
#

and that's kinda minor

#

lol

vestal nest
versed mesa
#

funnily enough

#

the fox was nerfed anyways and killing it with the car every time just completely negated it as a threat

#

i think it's an alright balance change

#

my version55 cruiser can still kill the fox but then you have to contend with the agony of the v55 car

vestal nest
versed mesa
#

yes vains are still a pain but the fox is way more cowardly now

#

and it won't come into the ship anymore afaik

#

the fox is the threat not really the vains, ya'feel

vestal nest
#

thats if ur in its nest range

#

i had the worst experience on titan where the fox nest was ON the ship spawn

#

we could not leave and go into titan without dealing with the fox it was horrible

versed mesa
#

it should probably be barred from spawning on Titan

thin comet
#

It will be cool to have a mod that makes vain shrouds spawn near the ship.

versed mesa
#

no it won't 😭

vestal nest
#

hell naw

versed mesa
#

it's a good thing it doesn't really do that anymore

thin comet
#

The only time I saw the v80 fox killing a player was in Titan.

vestal nest
thin comet
versed mesa
#

yes

turbid basin
#

I don't find the car too overpowered, but that might be because I don't utilize the meta jumps. I just figure out routes and drive. Giants are very much still a threat because they just grab you through the window and only die when you take damage/die.

#

I miss the old March because of how navigable it was with the cruiser.

versed mesa
#

they can only grab you in the cab if the back door is open or the truck is tilted past 32 degrees

#

old birds are also a null threat because, due to an oversight in their code, your 'transform' gets blocked from their LoS

#

the car doesn't even take damage from dogs anymore

#

it will regen up to half of its hp

daring oar
#

i am making the car $700 in v0.5.0

#

and reverting all the durability buffs from v70

versed mesa
#

even without meta jumps the car do be very overpowering 😵‍💫

daring oar
#

because i feel "this is fair" for the cruiser

#

but i made it a config because i know everyone will have their own opinions about cruiser balance

#

imo v70 cruiser is definitely worth $700 or more

versed mesa
#

potentially more than jetpack

#

:p

turbid basin
#

Yeah. It's definitely too cheap.

daring oar
#

maybe v69 cruiser is okay at a lower price point but i feel like even still i just dont like how noncommittal it is

versed mesa
#

my v55 cruiser is a liability on wheels

#

:)

daring oar
#

getting 2 cars for 1/3 the price of a jetpack means we spend almost no time ever playing without a cruiser and i want it to feel like a choice

#

$700 cruiser plus having to buy weed killers to maintain its health on dangerous rounds feels totally fair for "this bad boy can transfer unlimited scrap"

#

if you ask me !

thin comet
#

I agree

versed mesa
#

on the other hand you can have $400 for a unwieldy metal box that actively works against you towards your goal of 'getting back in one piece'

#

every collision is praying you aren't going fast enough to be immediately killed :3

daring oar
#

yeah $400 is fine for v55

#

the rocking feature alone makes the car worth like $300 more imo lmfao

versed mesa
#

fair enough

daring oar
#

anyways

#

v0.5.0 may come sooner than expected

#

for the first time in forever i finally feel like i am ready to tackle patching the cruiser

#

even though it will require a bunch of transpilers

#

(annoying transpilers too, since i can't hardcode values, and have to make it read from network synced values)

#

im also basically already done with the jetpack

#

i'm curious how it feels to use over the course of real games but ive already implemented all the features i want and outside of maybe numbers tweaks i don't need to do any more work with them

dire sedge
#

hell yeah you got this!!!

fallen musk
#

And yet

#

Being able to only transfer (now 4) one-handers at a time should be 900$?

#

(Well 3 with the mod but still)

#

Cruiser price buff is warranted

#

Hell I'd say set it at 1000$

#

I think it's been shown that the cruiser can be extremely OP if in the right hands and with enough practice with whatever jump is being done

#

Though I imagine the cruiser boosting is gonna be nerfed too

#

I kinda just wish cruiser had more intuitive controls than just learning jumps to minimize the amount you need to actually drive with it.

dire sedge
#

the controls are fine

#

takes some getting used to but it fits

#

i would say then that's a problem with the jumps and not the driving controls at that point

fallen musk
#

I don't think the controls are good, they're way too unintuitive.

#

They can be learned, and I know to drive it. But I wish it just drove like other vehicles in other games

dire sedge
#

but that's what makes it unique, isn't it?

fallen musk
#

I guess but it isn't fun.

#

I mean the fact you get a vehicle in general is already really unique

#

I know there's BetterVehicleControls but even that feels a bit rough

dire sedge
#

besides...

I've been kind of amused by the disappointed reactions of people who expected the Company Cruiser to behave like a Fortnite car. Because it's pretty clear Lethal Company isn't about empowering the player... yet I kind of intended the Company Cruiser to subvert those expectations.
(v55 post)

dire sedge
#

certainly not for everyone

fallen musk
#

Yeah

dire sedge
#

i barely drive it but i appreciate it for what it is

fallen musk
#

And then people turn around and make it into an extremely broken gimmick

#

Which I doubt was Zeekerss's intention either

dire sedge
#

lol i do agree with this

versed mesa
#

personally i'd find it really boring if it just drove like any other car with WASD

#

i personally like when games lean into more to the side of ""realism"" with vehicles

#

and i think lethal companies is very unique, i don't think i've played any other game with a vehicle like the CC

#

having to actively look at the gear you want to shift to, having to manually recenter the wheel, gas being gas and brake being brake (not reversing!!!!!!), they're all really fun mechanics and they fit really well into lethal company, and they aren't a complete detriment to the cruisers driving experience

#

they're simple enough that you can "get good at them", but add an element of skill at the same time if you want to get any use out of the car

fallen musk
#

I guess, but the fact you only have to account for driving to either main or fire kinda makes the skill driving there not that big of a deal

versed mesa
fallen musk
#

Because if you had to drive back, I doubt the cruiser would be used as much.

#

Mostly steering

versed mesa
#

the steering bug is pretty bad but it's not unuseable

#

it just doesn't automatically recenter for the most part

fallen musk
#

There's no indicator for how the wheels are turned

versed mesa
#

yes, because the steering mechanic has been bugged since v55

#

i still like the overall idea of it though

fallen musk
#

At the very least it should be tied to the steering wheel

versed mesa
#

and i have fixed this issue for my v55 cruiser

fallen musk
#

Wait it's bugged

versed mesa
#

(with true v55 mode off)

#

yes

#

it has been bugged forever unless you actively use mods that fix it

fallen musk
#

Oh my goodness

versed mesa
#

if you have a fresh cruiser, turning the steering wheel to 1/3s of its full rotation will mean the 'front wheels' are at their maximum angle (full lock)

#

any more turns of the wheel in that same direction are useless and dont turn the wheels anymore

#

but turning back turns both the steering wheel visually and quickly turns the 'front wheels' in the opposite direction

#

but if you had turned visually more than 1/3

#

the front wheels "outpace" the steering wheel

#

and quickly veer off into the other direction

#

which leads to the steering wheel not matching up properly

#

this issue isn't made any better by the visual tyres matching your steering wheel

#

but the wheelcolliders that do all the driving dont

versed mesa
#

my v55 cruiser and scanvan implement fixes that don't sacrifice a full steering wheel animation

#

mods like bettervehiclecontrols, lethalfixes and cruiserimproved all implement the same fix for the vanilla CC that, in essence, deletes 2/3s of the steering wheels animation, which i guess works without changing steering behaviour

#

but i like having the full animation

versed mesa
fallen musk
#

So the steering wheel is supposed to reflect how the wheels are turned

#

God dammit zeek

#

No because it's so easy to misalign the animation if you're not careful

versed mesa
#

the visual tyres match

#

but the front wheels that do all the physics stuff dont

#

because zeeks for some reason uses two steering variables

#

that are completely detached from one another

fallen musk
#

Anyways, I do feel that nerfing the boosts should be accommodated by giving better cruiser controls

#

Which is probably out of scope of this mod anyway

#

Nerfing things should always have more intentional accommodations.

crude pier
versed mesa
#

because aside from the boost the car is just insanely overpowering

crude pier
#

Hmm well to be fair, cruiser boosts are kinda hard to use without getting yourself killed, unless you’re really good at it.

#

And it’s a pretty niche strat

versed mesa
#

it's just memorising what keys to press in what order

#

it's not really like

#

that skillful

#

unlike trying to manoeuvre the car over rough terrain while dodging obstacles

#

;p

#

you're literally nulling 99% of the map by flying over it

crude pier
#

True

versed mesa
#

with something that carries inf amount of items no problemo

crude pier
#

I just wish the maps had a long route for the cruiser with slightly easier terrain

#

I think the best nerf you can probably make to the boosts for the cruiser is to just limit the amount of boosts you can have at one time

versed mesa
daring oar
#

i am reducing the jetpack's raw power but i don't intend to really mess with their controls that much either

#

im probably just not going to touch turbo boost much (if at all) in v0.5.0

#

i don't feel like i am knowledgeable enough to make good adjustments to turbo boosts

#

i'd basically just be guessing at numbers

#

im probably just gonna add an option to let you change the turbo count

versed mesa
#

i kinda just nerfed the force and the amount of boosts, tested it and called it a day

daring oar
#

and maybe set it to a lower capacity by default (probably 4, maybe 3)

versed mesa
#

lets you do this

crude pier
#

wonder if you could just make it so that the boosts make the cruiser faster, rather than making it jump

versed mesa
#

the cruiser is already a bit of a speed machine lel

daring oar
#

well that actually could have a bit of a niche in crushing sapsucker i guess

#

and i guess it'd also be good at crushing giants except i already make those instakill

crude pier
#

it would also help with accelerating up hills too

versed mesa
daring oar
#

yeah hills usually just take a bunch of gas and some time

versed mesa
#

the car just continually applies torque up until a point when on the gas

daring oar
#

one of the reasons i dont use turbo with the cruiser is because rocking is so applicable in any situation

versed mesa
#

if you used something like my Scanvan, hills are more of a challenge, as they require you to be in lower gears, and you have to deal with the resistance of the engine

daring oar
#

and since you can't rock anytime you have turbo in the engine

#

it's actually detrimental for me

versed mesa
#

it is pretty bad lol

#

i added a switch for it on my van and i dont think ive activated that switch in aaaaaages

daring oar
#

the fact i barely use it is the reason i dont really feel comfortable making many changes to it

#

i use jetpacks all the time and have a very specific opinion about them and that gave me a clear path to adjust it to my liking

#

similarly, i know i have issues with the cruiser's price, and i know the v70 durability changes were a bad idea

#

so it's easy for me to make adjustments in that vein too

#

i dont "get" turbo enough to change it though

versed mesa
#

i will support nerfing the car :)

crude pier
#

I've recently been trying to learn how to use the cruiser boosts without any videos (because watching videos how to do strats is boring)

versed mesa
#

i haven't used the turbo jumps in quite a while now

#

driving is just second nature to me at this point and its the one i enjoy more

#

i'm also a bit opiniated on boosting

daring oar
#

yeah like i just said turbo boosting is purely detrimental to me

#

i don't think it's fun

#

it removes a control option i actually do make use of

#

and i consider myself "capable enough" at driving that i never feel the need to branch out anyway

#

i guess since this is my mod i could totally just add an option to delete boosting and say "turn it off if you dont want it"

#

but after seeing the v50 beta jetpacks nerf i also feel like it'd be a bit evil to just remove this fun thing people like using

versed mesa
#

play with the v55 car and you'll never need to worry about boosting ;)

#

well, buttery, in fairness

#

this mod is literally called

#

"buttery balance"

#

they're your balancing changes

#

so do what you want ^^

#

if you want to make it configurable then go for it

#

if not then don't :)

fallen musk
#

This is why I still mostly say v50 is the best version.

#

The only sad thing is that v50 doesn't have some really important bug fixes.

#

While the cruiser did open up a lot of doors with custom moons, I feel like it's effect on vanilla moons has been really detrimental with how they're played.

versed mesa
#

i think it became detrimental in v56 and especially v70

#

not when it first came out ;)

fallen musk
#

Well when it first came out it was near useless.

versed mesa
#

when it first came out it was just genuinely a mostly useless rolling dumpster fire on wheels

#

yus

#

exactly

#

was not detrimental to how moons were played :)

fallen musk
#

Yeah because no one used it lol

versed mesa
#

i did!

#

and i know some other people that did

fallen musk
#

People did try to make it work, but for how dangerous it played, jetpack + tzp was still just a better option.

versed mesa
#

and that's okay :)

#

the car was meant to be dangerous

#

its a $400 red metal box that comes with a 4 page instruction manual and explodes if you use the gas in park

#

nothing about it screams "safe"

fallen musk
#

I mean yeah I guess it is okay since it encourages jetpack + tzp more which is infinitely more fun.

#

But then it just becomes a thing that exists that no one will use in a serious run.

versed mesa
#

i don't think no one would use it

#

just no one knew how to use it at first

fallen musk
#

I probably should mention that I mean specifically high guoda gaming, casual play I can understand people just using just cause.

versed mesa
#

there was some stuff that made it pretty much "unviable" for 'serious runs' (mainly items not saving) but having that also trivialises scrap collection

#

i dont think this game is trying to cater to hq

#

i am a casual

#

:)

fallen musk
#

Yeah but imho

#

I think it should respect HQ players

versed mesa
#

well the car wasn't a massive "fuck you" to hq players

fallen musk
#

because once this game loses traction eventually, the only players that are still gonna be playing it are HQ players.

#

I never said it was.

versed mesa
#

it lost traction long ago lol

#

but you still get casuals :)

fallen musk
#

Yeah but like, I don't understand the weird stigmitization I see against people wanting to get as far as possible.

versed mesa
#

it's not necessarily because they want to push the limits

fallen musk
#

I mean I get it

#

It's called "Lethal" for a reason.

#

But genuinely, if v56 cruiser never became a thing, serious players would still use jetpack + tzp over it

versed mesa
#

and i think that's okay ;p

fallen musk
#

I mean yeah but it's effectively adding nothing then.

versed mesa
#

i imagine some people would still use it :p

fallen musk
#

I guess I do agree with you in that v55 cruiser is better, but it's "better" for the wrong reasons.

versed mesa
#

i use "better" in the sense that it fits more with lethal companies overall design

#

i should mention that i don't think features such as item collection (added in v56) should be completely removed to be like v55, that is a feature that "makes sense" and does make the car alot more viable on its own

#

i just added it for my v55 car 'cause authenticity, but in a weird way i do think its fun having to rummage the car for everything

#

i do think items in the back only should be safe though with the door shut

#

i'm a little "on the fence" about it, because yes, it makes sense, but it also makes the car extremely overpowered on its own

#

i think i would even settle/be alot happier with v55 car, but with the ability to rock it and items being safe in the back only

#

you'd be left with something that has the fragility of wet cornflakes, but has the potential to be really useful if you know how to use it correctly

fallen musk
#

I remember the v55 cruiser having some pretty bad physics bugs.

versed mesa
#

it still does lol

#

but which ones are you thinking of?

fallen musk
#

It's been a while but I just remember that it was very unstable in how it collided with things.

versed mesa
#

that's a bit vague

fallen musk
#

It is

versed mesa
#

sounds more like unities collision resolution

#

which isn't zeekerss fault

#

and neither something zeekerss can do anything about

#

the cruiser basically has like 95% of its day 1 bugs in present day lol

#

zeekerss fixed.. well, essentially nothing really

fallen musk
#

Aggh I am so conflicted because this is one of those really unnuanced things.

#

If the cruiser doesn't have boosts, then it's effectively worse than jet + tzp, especially if it has v55 health.

#

If it does, TZP becomes useless.

versed mesa
#

the health has not changed since v55

#

since v55 the car has had 30 hp

#

and still has 30 hp

#

the car is still technically better than jet even without boosts, it carries an inf amount of items, you can carry people, i guess it's "more durable" than a jet and you get a free warranty as well

#

and with items being collected you just have to shove it on the magnet and boom everythings safe

fallen musk
#

I mean technically yeah I guess it is still better but like let's say it's 10 PM on Art, you got cruiser at fire with no boosts.

#

There is a very good chance you ain't making it out.

versed mesa
#

it takes like a few seconds to drive to ship

#

if the main path is blocked... just drive around the warehouses

#

i have done this a numerous amount of times

fallen musk
#

How consistent is it?

versed mesa
#

from my experience it's mostly been pretty good

#

for the most part you can usually just gun it down the main path and just drive up to the magnet in a hurry

fallen musk
#

Alright, I'm gonna test this later on.

#

I wanna see how v55 cruiser actually drives since it's been a while

versed mesa
#

my Version55 Company Cruiser is as authentic as you're going to get to experiencing the v55 car in modern day

#

if you disable True-v55 in the config, it does fix some issues which makes it a bit more stable to drive, but nothing more than that (it just touches the suspension and steering)

#

-# and disabling true v55 allows you to enable my right hand drive gimmick :3

fallen musk
#

Does it fix the bugs with steering atleast?

versed mesa
#

disabling true v55 will yes

#

but it makes the car feel "heavier to steer" since the front wheels will directly match the steering wheel and tyres

#

which i think is fine and goes in line with the vision of being difficult to control

#

disabling true v55 is just like a "slightly more polished v55 but still terrible"

#

i also fixed some physics bugs (like host-vehicle interaction) (applied regardless of config)

versed mesa
#

since the tyres turn 50 degrees in vanilla and the front wheels only 45

#

with true-v55 mode off you get 50 degrees of turning on the visual tyres and front wheels (as it'll use the same angle calc as the tyres in vanilla)

wind spoke
versed mesa
#

there's a point where you don't even need to look at the wheel to know where you're going

#

you can get a "feel" for it

wind spoke
#

I've gotten more used to it than before but that doesn't mean that I like that part of it, I do like the rest of the stuff like reversing and the brake though

versed mesa
#

each to their own, i really enjoy that mechanic, i've never seen it in any other game, and it works really well in lethal company imo

wind spoke
#

yeah thats fair

fallen musk
#

Quick question, does the configs in ButteRyBalance override LunarConfig's settings?

#

For example, let's say lunar sets coil's power to 3, will buttery balance's config for coils override that?

#

(I don't have coils at 3 power lol, just a hypothetical)

daring oar
#

i don't know but if you're using lunarconfig i would suggest just copying the changes you want into that instead of using my config settings

fallen musk
#

Alrighty.

old musk
#

ok I'm gonna post this here now because I at first put it in the wrong thread.
There are quite some features for the cadaver Infection that only exist for singleplayer.
I'd be cool to be able to individually activate these:

  • HUD indication for how long the air filter still fully blocks the spores (Filter quality: X%)
  • HUD indication for high fever when infection reaches 80% or higher, from 101°F to 112°F
  • HUD indication while at Critical burst ((90% to 100%)shortly before blooming) which says: "High Fever detected!!! Foreign Bodies detected!!! Irregular Brainwave detected!!!"
  • While Solo the time from 90% to 100% critical burst is 18 seconds and in multiplayer its about 1.7 seconds. I was hoping you could increase this time to maybe 3 seconds so you actually get to experience all the effects(ear ringing, Movement becomes hindered, Vines-in-head audio, Visual poison starts building up) and maybe warn you're team that your head is about to explode

I got most of this info from the wiki but can also speak from experience: https://lethal-company.fandom.com/wiki/Cadaver

image.png image.png image.png
daring oar
#

i meant to respond to this but i came down with a fever and fell asleep earlier

#

HUD indication for how long the air filter still fully blocks the spores (Filter quality: X%)
i think this would be "fine", just not super necessary - you basically just get 3 seconds of invulnerability in multiplayer, although it's not projected on the HUD like it is in singleplayer. singleplayer gives you 7 seconds of invulnerability and an explicit "timer" to make it easier to track

I could make it display filter quality but i just dont think it makes a big difference. it should be pretty easy to intuit if you've been exposed to plants for 3 seconds or more

#

HUD indication for high fever when infection reaches 80% or higher, from 101°F to 112°F
the problem with something like this is that it makes infection too obvious - it's a consolation prize for playing in singleplayer, where you are unable to use other tells for infection, and where you must leave the moon before blooming to avoid losing all your progress.

in multiplayer, there is a very clear design intent that players are unaware they are infected, and must depend on others to clearly identify when there is danger. there are a few exceptions to this:

  • the "vine in head" audio clips play, but only for severe infections (severe infections are a random chance, and the possibility of the audio itself playing is another random chance that only plays around 80%+ infection, so this is not a reliable tell)
  • you display a red dot on the radar once you start growing flowers out of your back (technically, this is bugged in vanilla, and only visible to other players in your lobby - this is also an extremely subtle and easily missable cue)
  • severe infections also cause you to emit spores from your mouth while speaking to other players (this is technically also bugged in vanilla and doesn't work, and also wouldn't impact 100% of cases)

but TL;DR: this offers a huge information advantage because it is a clear indicator of infection that is unmissable, and requires no player interaction - the point of cadavers is driving interaction and communication with your team

#

HUD indication while at Critical burst ((90% to 100%)shortly before blooming) which says: "High Fever detected!!! Foreign Bodies detected!!! Irregular Brainwave detected!!!"
again, i could add this, but you get basically no time to read this in multiplayer because the burst sequence is so brief. it doesnt hurt anything but it makes sense why he omitted it, i mean

#

While Solo the time from 90% to 100% critical burst is 18 seconds and in multiplayer its about 1.7 seconds. I was hoping you could increase this time to maybe 3 seconds so you actually get to experience all the effects(ear ringing, Movement becomes hindered, Vines-in-head audio, Visual poison starts building up)
i do agree it is a bit unfortunate all these effects kind of lose their ability to shine in multiplayer, however...
and maybe warn you're team that your head is about to explode
this is the point, right? 🙂 transformation is supposed to be extremely short and alarming, so that you have no time to warn your friends before endangering them. the warning signs are the flowers, the scan node, and how you respond to weed killer spray - these tells give you ample time to prepare.

there are a couple of other mechanics that skip the "seeing red" transition anyway:

  • being sprayed with weed killer after the burst timer begins instantly transforms you
  • if another player blooms near you and your own burst timer is about to expire, you instantly transform alongside them
#

TL;DR: i dont think many of these changes will be "difficult" to implement, but im not personally that excited by the possibility of doing it. at best I think they "don't change much" and at worst I think they are counterproductive to the design of the cadavers, so I don't think I feel like tackling it

#

i don't think the cadavers are perfect as they exist but my issues mainly lie in how they completely block visibility for like 99% of the interior

#

ideally i think exposure should carry a higher risk of getting infected quicker, and the growths should be isolated to a much smaller area in the building - but the actual progression of infection and the counterplay to infection feels fine as-is, imo

#

if all else fails there's nothing preventing you from spending $20 on weed killer, keeping it in your utility slot, and just spraying your friends any time they pass through the cadavers

#

it is a 100% surefire way to immediately diagnose if somebody is infected or not, at any infection progress

#

and is also the way to cure it

daring oar
#

i have just became aware of a gamebreaking issue that is currently present in v0.4.2

#

which needs an emergency hotfix

#

but im already started with v0.5.0 so now im either gonna have to release early, rush to get those features done, or just pray nobody else encounters problems 🥲

#

it causes specific seeds to crash upon returning to orbit (due to an error with Terminal.SetItemSales()) which erases all progress from that day

#

because it fails to save and you have to quit and roll back the day

runic cobalt
#

Oops

daring oar
#

somehow i didnt notice this at all in testing

#

but we got 2 separate seeds today with the issue

thin comet
# 
Parameter name: index
Stack trace:
System.Collections.Generic.List`1[T].get_Item (System.Int32 index) (at <1071a2cb0cb3433aae80a793c277a048>:0)
ButteRyBalance.Utilities.KeySpawner.PostProcessKeyNodes (UnityEngine.GameObject[]& nodes, System.Int32& count) (at <3ef9abb831b043b28196fb2471ccf8fd>:0)
(wrapper dynamic-method) RoundManager.DMD<RoundManager::SetLockedDoors>(RoundManager,UnityEngine.Vector3)
RoundManager+<waitForMainEntranceTeleportToSpawn>d__231.MoveNext () (at <aca1e98d6f844d3f85cd22b6f7be2f9b>:0)
UnityEngine.SetupCoroutine.InvokeMoveNext (System.Collections.IEnumerator enumerator, System.IntPtr returnValueAddress) (at <c39a522eee05469b8171a6cfeb646c59>:0)
UnityEngine.MonoBehaviour:StartCoroutine(IEnumerator)
RoundManager:DMD<RoundManager::SetLevelObjectVariables>(RoundManager)
RoundManager:DMD<RoundManager::FinishGeneratingNewLevelClientRpc>(RoundManager)
RoundManager:__rpc_handler_2729232387(NetworkBehaviour, FastBufferReader, __RpcParams)
Unity.Netcode.RpcMessageHelpers:Handle(NetworkContext&, RpcMetadata&, FastBufferReader&, __RpcParams&)
Unity.Netcode.ClientRpcMessage:Handle(NetworkContext&)
Unity.Netcode.NetworkBehaviour:__endSendClientRpc(FastBufferWriter&, UInt32, ClientRpcParams, RpcDelivery)
RoundManager:DMD<RoundManager::FinishGeneratingNewLevelClientRpc>(RoundManager)
<LoadNewLevelWait>d__167:DMD<RoundManager+<LoadNewLevelWait>d__167::MoveNext>(<LoadNewLevelWait>d__167)
UnityEngine.SetupCoroutine:InvokeMoveNext(IEnumerator, IntPtr)``` This error occurred, probably something about the *No keys in caverns* option
daring oar
#

yeah

#

i noticed this happened when we were playing as well

#

im not sure why

#

for now, v0.5.0 includes error handling for this, and will rollback to vanilla key spawning

#

the results of this are a lot less disastrous i believe

#

it just prevents keys from spawning for that round

#

still kind of annoying that i never encountered it in testing

#

anyways it appears the race is on for v0.5.0

#

i've already finished my jetpack changes

#

and im probably half-ish done with cruiser changes

thin comet
#

maybe is it an incompatibility?

daring oar
#

i believe i've solvedthis now

#

it shouldnt break most rounds but if you want to be safe you could just turn off No Keys in Caverns until v0.5.0

analog cypress
#

I have a suggestion but it maybe be a bit controversial (I think)

#

Weed Killer should be buffed to kill weeds in 1 spray, most of the problems I had with it is that it's not worth fighting against, you lose a lot of time from the day and Vain Shrouds/cadaver growth is unstopable when you don't kill it right away

#

I don't mind it having fewer sprays if necessary, that would also be a nerf to the cruiser. I just want to kill those damn weeds fast

old musk
dire sedge
analog cypress
old musk
# daring oar > HUD indication for high fever when infection reaches 80% or higher, from 101°...

Thanks a lot for the extensive replay and I totally respect your decision not to implement it, I honestly just really like the filter % notification to communicate that your equipment is really not built for this stuff and the very distressing " Foreign Bodies detected!!!" notification because I think it adds to the surprise and stress of the situation.
The other stuff with the temperature and longer reaction time I understand Is to game breaking since it should involve other people checking if you are sick which leads to them possibly also becoming sick.

#

But also is there a mod that fixes the spores not showing up while talking/I think the coughing feature also doesn't work

dire sedge
#

ButteryFixes fixes that now 🙂 it only has a chance of happening above 60% infection, with either a severe infection (60% chance on infection), a random chance rolled once on infection (40%), or a random chance rolled every time you talk (10%)

daring oar
#

okay i have released v0.5.0

#

aside from the cruiser/jetpack changes (which i am simultaneously "excited for" and "dreading" the ensuing discussion)

#

i have fixed the random chance terminal softlock

#

and keys sometimes not spawning in mineshafts if you use No Keys in Caverns

#

i skimped out on a couple cruiser things i wanted in v0.5.0 and will probably make a v0.5.1 for those in the "near future" but im already more than happy with what i have gotten done

dire sedge
#

Adamance now punishes those with hubris
i'm so scared ...

unreal ginkgo
#

I LOVE IT

#

GOOD JOB STAN

#

Not sarcasm btw

versed mesa
#

but anyways yus, i am happy for stan =3

#

it seems the v55 car was good insight from last night

#

^^

unreal ginkgo
versed mesa
thin comet
#

do you recommend turn off cruiser health options from cruiserimproved?

turbid basin
#

Those options basically make the cruiser invulnerable.

#

They were okay for the original cruiser.

daring oar
#

i do use cruiser improved but i turn off all the bonus features

#

i mainly just like using it for bug fixes (like the steering wheel sync, synced enemy damage, enemy pathing fixes, etc.)

thin comet
#

so do you enable Entities avoid cruiser?

daring oar
thin comet
#

Do you think lockpicker could have some buffs? Even reducing the time to open a door from 30s to 10s. I don't use a lot.

daring oar
#

with keys being worth money

#

belt bags and lockpickers both fitting in the utility slot

#

and lockpickers being very cheap compared to most other equipment

#

i feel like they are less of a balance issue than ever

#

but this is a popular request

#

and if it is easy to add i dont really mind implementing it as a setting

#

i will have a look

remote yacht
#

Do you think singleplayer could get some buffs? cus i play singleplayer too much and the biggest problem is two handeds, like safesoloscrap is nice but getting the scrap back is just a huge pain especially Quota 1 where no matter what moon i go to its immediately 5 two handeds and i just get mad and want to reset or go to a different game, idk if just making two handeds have a lesser chance to spawn or making you be able to carry multiple would make it more bearable but i feel like something for singleplayer to make it feel better to play would be a good addition.

fallen musk
remote yacht
fallen musk
#

Yeah but what moon are you playing, Assurance?

#

For q1

remote yacht
#

i play every q1 moon mostly ass tho

fallen musk
#

Assurance is almost always your best bet for q1 solo

#

Ass does drop a lot of 2 handers sometimes but with how docile it's outdoors is you should be fine more often than not

remote yacht
#

but if i do juggle on ass or off then baboons are a problem

thin comet
#

are you talking about vanilla ass or butterybalance ass?

fallen musk
#

I'm talking about vanilla ass

thin comet
#

butterybalance nerfs a little assurance

fallen musk
#

Ik, I don't use it though

#

I don't use any of the moon tweaks tbh

#

Mostly cause I tweak moons myself

fallen musk
remote yacht
#

they're an issue a good amount of the time for me

fallen musk
#

I've played Ass solo so many times and like only 1 time baboons actually screwed me over

#

Where do you loot from first?

remote yacht
#

i fully just go fire unless locked or really bad fire

fallen musk
#

Honestly, you should try going straight to main first.

#

Yknow about the main rock jump right?

remote yacht
#

yeah

fallen musk
#

Yeah honestly hit main first, it's a longer loot route but it generally pays off better

#

And if you find fire then just loot from fire

remote yacht
#

most of the time i go fire, transfer, and then at like 5-9 depending on 2handeds i go main for 1-2 trips

fallen musk
#

Main usually pays off better if you go to it early

#

The only reason to hit fire in solo is if you're dealing with flooded

remote yacht
#

i never go to flooded assurance

#

i just go to like march or offense

#

but the secondary problem that i said a little of is the feeling of getting 5+ two handeds and then just transfering for a long time, it just isnt fun

daring oar
#

since i dont play it enough to really "feel" what changes i want to make i dont really think i will mess with it

#

this is about the extent of the catalog i have for solo

remote yacht
fallen musk
#

Vow bridge is not that big of a deal lol

#

I mean it's weird you say transferring 2 handers is not fun yet call for a change that will make Vow not really that fun.

#

Although it won't really make much of a difference on Vow anyway.

crude pier
#

favorite part of the mod is having the ability to lock doors

fallen musk
#

I believe that mod doesn't work anymore.

thin comet
#

I mean: I don't use lockpicker a lot, even using mods to reduce the time from 30s to 10s

fallen musk
#

or atleast doesn't work properly.

thin comet
#

its only the locking feature that has a bug when an enemy opens the door that is being locked.

crude pier
#

I kinda think it's fair tbh when a creature opens the door while it's being locked

#

cause they you have to buy yourself a bunch of time to try and lock the door before it gets opened

thin comet
#

they being able to open the door is not the problem

daring oar
#

they serve different design philosophies

#

the vow bridge is basically just a shortcut that saves a couple of seconds as long as you don't send too many people across at the same time

#

or dont try to run across with 120lbs or whatever

#

the adamance bridge specifically exists to make getting to the factory quicker and easier

#

and it has such a punishingly strict weight limit because you're supposed to have to carry scrap through the valley

#

or use tools to make shortcuts

#

when adamance initially released in the beta the bridge didn't even exist

#

as for the chemical jugs

#

i suppose in the next version i will go ahead and make those scrap weight changes

#

i was planning to make stop signs and yield signs lighter weight

#

and make shovels very slightly heavier

#

tldr 14/28/42 would instead become 16/8/14

#

and at the same time i was gonna reduce chemical jugs back to 32

shut torrent
#

2 things: I think lockpicker could probably be 20 seconds to unlock a door and be fine, it doesn't need that much of a buff in v81 with the new utility slot system

#

And also if you do make shovel heavier, could it be a toggleable option in the shovel settings? (with it being enabled by default if you wish)

#

Mostly just because there's already a list for shovel settings and I feel that change would fit in there more than in the scrap weight changes toggle (which you'd assume would only touch scrap)

#

@daring oar

#

Oh

#

Actually

#

3 things

#

I put together a list of enemies that could get nerfs to their stun grenade resistance for your consideration:

-Cadaver blooms
-Butlers
-Nutcrackers
-Baboon Hawks
-Feiopars
-Giant Sapsuckers
-Kidnapper Foxes

#

I'd put maneater and mask hornets here if the maneater actually had a stun animation/if the stun grenades actually worked on mask hornets to begin with

fallen musk
#

Cadaver blooms don't really make sense for being stunned by grenades

#

They don't have eyes

daring oar
#

and then there will be an "adjust weapon weights" option probably under the shovel

#

which adjusts all 3 weapons at once

daring oar
shut torrent
#

They create a concussive blast as well that can disorientate, and they create a ear defeaning bang

daring oar
#

i wouldnt buff stun grenades against nutcrackers because their matchup is already totally fine (and stun grenades have the bigger issue of "nutcrackers shoot immediately after the stun expires" which can let them shoot their gun after you kill them 😅)

#

i also dont really want to nerf the fox anymore than it already has been nerfed

#

everything else i'd be more open with

fallen musk
#

This is a weird request, but I was wondering if there could be a nerf to Butler's idle pathfinding?

#

Mainly him not trying to run through every single node in a hope to search for a player.

thin comet
fallen musk
#

Oh you mean the butler

#

I mean... whatever

#

Lowkey I'm kinda getting annoyed that whenever I mention a balance change, someone has to chime in about how my change idea is not lore accurate or something like that.

unreal ginkgo
#

Depending on the change, that’s fair

#

One would expect the story to be consistent

fallen musk
#

Ok but often times it's excuses that aren't even substantiated in the lore.

#

I remember how I got into an argument over how I think the Maneater should be killable in 1 blast with a shotgun and people were making excuses like how maybe is has skin that is resistant against blasts when there's nothing in the lore that suggests that.

#

Nevermind that knife can kill it in only 4 stabs so it's not like it's skin is that resistant.

#

Making it killable with shotgun is just a simpler way of allowing players to kill it easier because they're otherwise gonna just use cheesy methods like trapping and killing it in the Artifice fire exit building.

#

I don't like that the most effective way of dealing with certain enemies is via cheesing.

#

Grant it, it ain't as prevalent in v81.

#

And also grant it Maneater is slightly easier in v81 too

old musk
old musk
shut torrent
#

I was mostly just providing a reason for why it could possibly work against the cadaver

#

I don't ever really see cadaver blooms in any of my games but it's really helpful with the maneater, and you can just slot that into your modpack and it's a really cool mod

fallen musk
#

Yeah I know about those mods, but I just remember the old discussion over it.

vapid pier
fallen musk
daring oar
#

like

#

is this not the exact same thing as saying "cadaver blooms being stunned by stun grenades is not lore accurate"

image.png
#

i dont think anybody intends to personally frustrate you but everybody just has their own feelings about what makes sense and works for lethal company

fallen musk
#

I mean I guess

#

I guess stuns are kinda like concussions too

#

Concussion grenades.

#

I just think Lethal should be fairly balanced despite how deadly things are.

#

It shouldn't be 100% literal to the point where it's not fair.

daring oar
#

anyways

daring oar
#

i have already addressed all the issues i have with butlers in a multiplayer setting

#

at this point my main issue with butlers is the mask hornets but i dont really know what i'd do to make those better

#

the only suggestion i see getting tossed around is "make them unable to open doors" and personally i just dont like that as a solution

#

so i havent really touched them (though i use the SCF setting to make them occupy power level, because i think this is "fair")

#

im not sure if you are asking for that specifically in the context of solo play

#

but if that's the case then i could change it sure

#

butlers already get speed nerfed in singleplayer

#

and i agree their search behavior is probably pretty overkill in singleplayer

#

i havent thought about it before but now that you point it out i think it's a good idea

daring oar
#

i was considering a v0.5.1 but there's actually an idea i'm really interested in experimenting with that im thinking i might just tackle right now

#

and consider it "v0.6.0"

fallen musk
#

It's a bit overkill in Singleplayer, but I always thought it was weird it purposely tries to put itself around players. More often than not, players are gonna stumble across them just moseying about.

#

I think the searching behavior itself is fine, but rushing to find players is a bit unnatural

#

It's also why you rarely find butlers far in from the entrances

#

Idk if this would be a buff or nerf to them.

old musk
#

ButtlRyBalance Update ButlerSmile

shut torrent
#

And honestly it doesn't seem like it's that great a solution but it's actually really cool and good

#

You could maybe buff up their speed to compensate

fallen musk
#

Is it possible we can get an option to just disable the guaranteed cadaver on Adamance?

#

without the other spawnlist changes

#

Because DawnLib/LunarConfig's setting of enemy weights is still causing bugs and this mod overrides enemy spawns set by LLL.

daring oar
#

the "reduce cadavers" setting doesn't change anything about the spawn list

#

it just removes adamance's special enemy and then increases the indoor spawn rate

#

the interior setting (which increases mineshafts/manors) adds butlers at 10 weight

#

and the remove masked setting obviously puts masked at 0 weight

#

but i dont touch the spawnlist otherwise

fallen musk
#

Ah, the option for Reducing Cadavers says it increases the spawnrate of other enemies.

#

Which I guess technically it does

daring oar
#

yeah it increases spawn rate in the sense it makes enemies spawn more frequently

#

i could get into all the reasons for why that was a necessary change

#

but the tldr is that without making that change adamance is like, silent on the inside until 1 or 3 PM and that's just "not very adamance"-y

#

but cadavers already exist in the spawn table with a base spawn chance of 37.66%

#

and i just left that as-is

#

and the increased spawn rate just gives them more opportunities to succeed at being selected for a spawn

fallen musk
#

Nevermind, I had LLL disabled

#

I am super blind, sorry.

thorny pike
#

i know butlers have it already but i think there should be an option for nutcrackers to have a boosted chance on mansion considering their bestiary log, despite its very limited length, still mentions the mansion vaguely

#

and theyve always seemed mansion-y like enemies to me anyways

daring oar
versed mesa
#

offense

ebon sandal
daring oar
#

especially not on rend which is already basically always manors

#

i guess i could reduce their spawn rates on the manor moons to compensate (like with butlers on dine)

thorny pike
#

that could work

daring oar
#

but i was more passionate about the butler change because

  1. they are extremely uncommon across the game
  2. it let me also improve butlers spawning all the time in dineshafts which was pretty awful
undone island
#

Could we get an option to add the solo only hud stuff for cadaver growths to multiplayer? for example after 80% you start getting fever warnings

#

filter quality would also be nice

dire sedge
daring oar
#

i would be open to filter quality and the Triple Threat warning message (although I personally don't think either would serve much of a gameplay purpose, I think they are relatively non-intrusive)

#

but i can offer absolutely no ETA on when i would have this done because it's very low priority for me

#

everything else im not interested in

#

tldr

fallen musk
#

Tbh, even if it was enabled, knowing whether you're infected or not doesn't really help deal with them in multiplayer.

#

The only way to deal with them in MP is everyone being aware when one spawns and rushing to destroy it before it can spread too much.

#

I hate that because it pretty much means everyone has to use their utility slot for weed killer ideally.

dire sedge
#

not really

#

destroying cadaver growths entirely is difficult and often not worth it, but countering it by actually fighting the infection is a lot more effective and easy

fallen musk
#

Yeah really, if you don't jump on that thing right away it can seriously hamper interior unless you get lucky and it spawns in an irrelevant part of the interior.

dire sedge
#

nope

#

you do not have to kill the cadaver growths to deal with them

#

fighting the infection itself means that only one person needs to be carrying weed killer and checking up on people every once in a while

#

doesn't even need to be a dedicated person really, it can be just left around for easy access

#

and you don't really need to know the signs to cure someone

#

it is helpful to know them if you really want to save on weed killer i guess, but weed killer only deals damage when curing a player, so if you spray them and nothing happens they're fully healthy

daring oar
#

it's $20 for a bottle of weed killer which can spray 30 times

#

10 sprays will totally cure infection even in the absolute worst stage (moments before transformation is unstoppable)

#

and the sooner you are aware you are infected, the fewer sprays you need (and the less damage you will take in the process of being cured)

#

you absolutely do not have to "immediately destroy every cadaver plant" to counter them

#

infection really only gets you if you choose to allow it to progress to dangerous levels

#

and it's completely feasible to just venture into the plants multiple times a day and have a communal weed killer bottle sitting somewhere near the interior

#

which you can share with each other any time infection is suspected

#

i think a lot of people seriously over-exaggerate how problematic the cadaver infection is, at least in multiplayer

#

in solo it's a bigger deal because it's totally uncurable and spending time in the weeds makes infection pretty much inevitable

#

i have no disagreements that they are problematic in solo

versed mesa
#

do cadavers still grow back even if you eradicate all the weeds completely?

daring oar
#

iirc once you kill every cadaver inside a tile it's not allowed to grow back in that tile for "a certain period of time" and also there's an added requirement like "the adjacent tiles also need to be infested"

#

but if every cadaver on the map is eradicated it's not possible for them to grow from anywhere

versed mesa
#

yeah that's what i meant

daring oar
#

and so they, functionally, remain eliminated for the duration of the day

versed mesa
#

okay, good

daring oar
#

i dont actually understand all of those mechanics

versed mesa
#

was just checking

daring oar
#

but tldr if you catch it early enough im pretty sure you can totally block them for the day yeah

#

it's a lot less feasible to do so than with vain shrouds

#

because they don't have a fixed starting point (they aren't even guaranteed to start near a vent)

#

and they grow in realtime

#

not just between days

#

i really dont think "just letting them be and curing infection as necessary" is problematic counterplay though

#

it really just punishes teams that spread themselves too thin and choose not to pay attention to each other

#

i will say i think cadavers spawn in such dense amounts over such a large area that it gets kind of annoying to explore

#

i have said it before and i still believe they'd be more fun if the risk of infection was higher but they controlled a smaller total area

#

but i dont think they are "gamebreaking" at all in their current state

#

(their current behavior is definitely deserving of "more than 2 power level" though)

versed mesa
#

strategically hook up a pipe to my vans exhaust aimed inside the facility and put a brick on the accelerator to increase carbon monoxide emissions inside and kill all the cadavers, but then you must wait with the main door open for a while to let the emissions escape afterwards

versed mesa
#

cause of death: strangulation

fallen musk
#

I mean you're gonna use just as much weed killer to kill the growths rather than treat infection.

#

And the curing the infection does so much damage that it can just potentially cause players to lose a bunch of HP.

#

It's better to just destroy the source of it rather than just keep treating constantly and having everyone close to critical.

#

It's better for people to jump on a growth and destroy it and rather just deal with one minor infection than just keep hurting each other constantly to cure an infection.

daring oar
#

i never said it was a bad idea to exterminate the cadavers when you are granted the opportunity to do so

#

but when you miss the opportunity it is far from "game over"

#

weed killer is -10% infection for 8 damage (personally id lower this number but i dont think it's "criminal")

#

you are not going to generally reach a point where everybody in a single round is critically injured by weed killer

fallen musk
#

well okay maybe not huge, it depends on where it spawns.

#

and how far it growths are

dire sedge
#

it isn't really shut down, you can still go through it, you'll just have to move fast and check for infection afterwards

fallen musk
#

If you want to loot everything it can be

dire sedge
#

sure but that's far from "shut down"

#

it's still playable

fallen musk
#

I guess if you just don't care.

#

It's especially bad on v73+ Dine where ideally you need to grab almost everything.

#

But then again I hate modern Dine.

daring oar
#

but i don't like how often new threats are blown out of proportion and i have firsthand experience of one of my favorite enemies in the game being removed for 1.5 years in response to community pushback

#

in total fairness the kidnapper fox is the only enemy id ever consider a "gamebreaker" in any iteration of the game

#

and it did need a lot of fixes (which came in v80, which i am thankful for)

#

but it also got a bunch of nerfs i do not agree with because i assume there was some degree of paranoia that the fox would ruin games even after the bugs were fixed

#

which is imo just not true at all

#

but this is kind of a tired discussion and sort of unrelated

#

Anyways

fallen musk
#

The nerfs were deserved

#

Even after the fact the cheese got found out about it, yeah.

thin comet
#

the vain shroud should spawn near the ship for me

daring oar
#

in their current state i think cadavers absolutely warrant a higher power level and if he changes absolutely nothing else about them, reducing weed killer damage is a "fine band aid patch" to reduce how much attentive players are punished for proper counterplay

#

but i dont think that's a gamebreaking issue

fallen musk
#

I mean it's not since WR is on v81 now.

daring oar
#

especially since many of lethal's worst threats are instakills

#

and you will still encounter unfair chip damage from stormy weather, for example

#

and many threats like thumpers and such can be killed without HP loss

#

so chip damage reduces consistency but does not reduce "the upper limit of what you have the ability to do"

#

probably the closest thing to a problematic interaction is coilhead/spider/jetpack

fallen musk
#

Still, having that extra layer of protection is better than not having it.

daring oar
#

crashing for 85 damage or taking 90 damage from either of those enemies is now fatal after two weed killer sprays

#

and at least for coilheads that feels maybe excessive

#

but i also think coilheads probably ought to just have their damage output reduced to 50 or something

#

that is not explicitly a cadaver issue

fallen musk
#

I think coil damage is fine.

#

I'd imagine Zeek wanted to make it instant originally but 90 basically allows for a last minute save so you don't just die outright.

#

Spider is insane though

daring oar
#

coil-heads would still kill players in two hits

#

but it means getting chipped for 10 damage does not suddenly make coil-heads instakill for the rest of the round

fallen musk
#

No it isn't, it doesn't put players on critical.

daring oar
#

coilheads already dont put you in critical