#ButteRyBalance

1 messages · Page 6 of 1

daring oar
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to afford more structure

raven patrol
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It is simple and straightforward

daring oar
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i do like the vanilla prices but i think they have really wacky scaling

marble spruce
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I still kind of think diminishingreturns has the general right idea when it comes to moon economy

unreal ginkgo
raven patrol
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Offense, March, and Adamance changes are already in the mod

daring oar
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it's pretty easy to jump straight from free moons to artifice right now

marble spruce
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i kind of agree with this

unreal ginkgo
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DeminishingReturns is way too aggressive to be of any fun

daring oar
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and it's also pretty easy for a player to read the terminal

unreal ginkgo
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I love Rend being almost impossible to scavenge in on day 2 đź’”

daring oar
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see titan at $700 and rend at $550

marble spruce
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yeah its too aggressive

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but like

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i think they have the right idea

daring oar
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and just deciding to leap straight to titan because they have the extra $150

unreal ginkgo
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Right idea yeah, but fun > balancing

marble spruce
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i just think they didnt execute it the best

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which isnt a hard fix

raven patrol
marble spruce
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but i doubt they'd be open to changes

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idk

daring oar
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i dont want to completely prohibit that sort of choice but i do like the thought of encouraging players to experience rend first

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rend is really the turning point for lethal company and i think it's the best part of the game

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the first experience with the blizzard and walking into your first manor

unreal ginkgo
# marble spruce i kind of agree with this

This would probably fix my issue with it, but you have to keep in mind if you don't savescum when you die, as you're meant to, you're set back to the Tier 1 moons essentially

marble spruce
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oversight

daring oar
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in fairness, nobody playing the game for the first time is using this mod, but i'd still like to keep it within that design principle

raven patrol
unreal ginkgo
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I've tried that, was boring

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Purple tried something similar, was kind of a drag there as well

daring oar
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purple is way too aggressive about it

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the biggest problem i see with lethal company is being pigeonholed into making one choice because it's the best choice

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it is too easy to optimize the fun out of the game by reaching artifice early and never routing anywhere else because you need artifice's payouts to reach your best score

raven patrol
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Well this is not too slow, Artifice q3 is probably easily doable with what we are mentioning

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
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it just makes the problem worse because experimentation is not as exciting as artifice

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anyways it's not like im expecting that every player will play every single moon in a run

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that's sort of how we play because i think it's the most fun way to play

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but i think it's also fine to have runs where you spend quota 1 on vow only, quota 2 on offense only, quota 3 on dine, etc.

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then the next run you do assurance, march, titan

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
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in the long term it doesn't matter when you are playing the levels but i want all of them to feel acceptable as alternatives to each other at some point

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whether that's in the same run or across multiple runs

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in vanilla pretty much the best way to play is only doing assurance or adamance (depending on your skill level and seeds)

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then you either jump into artifice and never stop going to artifice

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or you go to rend until you can afford artifice

unreal ginkgo
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Offense and Titan are pretty good options as well if you're wanting diversity

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Dine isn't as bad either if you just

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take alternate routes

daring oar
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there is no reason to visit offense over assurance

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it is significantly more effort for less reward

unreal ginkgo
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I've gotten better scrap on Offense with a shovel

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Loot rooms are STACKED there

daring oar
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you can go to offense if you like offense, but at that point you're not talking about balance anyway

daring oar
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spread out over a 1.25x interior whereas assurance is 1x

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and most of offense's loot is heavy 2-handed metal junk

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whereas assurance spawns a bunch of light valuable 1-handed

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
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im not saying offense is terrible but strictly speaking it is worse than *assurance in vanilla

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there is really no competition

unreal ginkgo
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Offense is worse than Offense

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Schrodinger's Offense

daring oar
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sorry it's a bit late and im bad at proofreading

unreal ginkgo
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Nah ur good

daring oar
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but anyways yeah if you like offense that's cool

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i like visiting offense in vanilla just because i like having some spice

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but the game offers absolutely no incentives to do so and i think that is a problem

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
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i havent forgotten

unreal ginkgo
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So there will be an incentive, there's just none yet

daring oar
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i was actually about to mention that next

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i think the drill will make this stop being so much of a problem

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at some point

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if he is smart about how he spreads out the drill parts

unreal ginkgo
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I imagine the gameplay loop would go like Assurance > Rend to prepare, and go to Offense > Dine for the drill parts for example

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Stuff like that

daring oar
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if the final objective is reaching an ending that requires specific items, and those specific items spawn on moons that are terribly balanced

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it wont matter because then the game isn't about optimizing by visiting the best moons

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it's about managing a balance between going to the best moons for profits to survive

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and risking your banked loot on shitty moons because you have to go there for drill parts

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that is a proper incentive structure and i'd have no complaints if that is how it worked now

unreal ginkgo
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I'm probably a minority, but I don't care about vanilla's balancing because I'm more interested in its story rather than having everything be 1:1

daring oar
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but i think, ultimately, what matters now is how fun the game's options are now

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if offense and dine spawn a drill part 12 months from now and become essential parts of the playthrough

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that doesn't matter right now where they are awful and strictly worse to visit than other moons

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so players are naturally going to avoid the content that already exists in this game

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and it's a shame to have content in the game that people are willingly choosing to not experience

unreal ginkgo
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Fingers crossed that the drill parts come soon within the next few major updates

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Which is unlikely, but still

daring oar
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even if zeekerss plans to fix this problem in the distant future with the drills, i wish he was a bit more mindful of the game's current balance, so the interim didn't feel quite as poorly thought out

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that is just my viewpoint, of course

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and i dont think that sort of problem "kills" lethal company or makes it a bad game

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but i do think it holds it back a little bit from being enjoyed to its fullest

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
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and i think the extra effort to tweak it for maximum enjoyment now, with the knowledge that it will probably change a lot later (as to be expected of a game exiting early access)

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would be a net positive

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anyways

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that is my piece regarding that

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embrion kinda gets a pass from me

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on that note

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i dont really care about how it fits into the game

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i wouldnt complain about it being buffed before it (presumably) gets a unique drill part

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but it's kind of just a cool place you visit once and doesn't really feel designed for longterm play anyway

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so it doesnt need to be anything more in the meantime

raven patrol
daring oar
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i did consider putting very light prices on the tier 2s

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for a similar reason

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
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but i think what id maybe do instead is make embrion $60

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so you could go there at the start with nothing and it could be a very spicy run start

unreal ginkgo
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Oh yeah, that's what my Embrion was like at one point

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Though, I've since increased its price in favor of Wither

raven patrol
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I just like this approach because it encourages decision making over just having a straight nerf

unreal ginkgo
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I canned the idea because, again, I like diversity, and instead made the difficulty much higher than Tier 1's, but with the added benefit of a potentially better profit than the Tier 1's

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I wanted to keep decision-making like you said, but in a different way, so that's what I went with personally

raven patrol
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Well my idea is a little more tame, all tier 1s are free and all tier 2s are each 150, a bit cheaper the your idea

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It could suffer the same result though

unreal ginkgo
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Although I intend to release it when I actually get to drawing an icon for it, I'm probably not going to cater to the consumers. It's been made for my own pleasure solo

raven patrol
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No problem with that, I was offput by Purple’s modpack but came to like it so I get it

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Making it for yourself is the best approach, other people will probably want to change things to having for you is best

unreal ginkgo
raven patrol
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What would those be might I ask

unreal ginkgo
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Copy pasted from his dm:

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  • Removed Useful Zap Gun

  • The Harbinger's cooldown after teleporting an entity has been increased from 17 > 25

  • The Harbinger's teleportation speed multiplier has been decreased from 1.8 > 1.5

  • The Harbinger's cooldown after teleporting themselves has been increased from 40 > 60 sec
    ă…¤* Explanation: Their ability to almost immediately teleport to you when you enter the facility leads to more or less constant camping, no matter what entrance you take

  • The Belt Bag's price has been reduced to $250

  • The Belt Bag can no longer pick up: Jetpacks, Gifts, Garbage Lids, and Gold Bars

jagged nexus
unreal ginkgo
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The invincible entities are invincible for a reason, and they're more fun and challenging that way. Especially how much barbers can get fucked by zap guns.

raven patrol
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Belt Bag not picking up Garbage Lid and Gift seems kinda random, what is the idea with that

jagged nexus
unreal ginkgo
unreal ginkgo
raven patrol
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Actually I forgot Garbage Lids are Belt Bag-able in base Arduous, I think I like your take more for consistency

jagged nexus
unreal ginkgo
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And that's not a good way to buff it, so it's still a no-go from me.

jagged nexus
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🤷‍♀️ I like it, especially if you have Bozoros

unreal ginkgo
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God, I am just not proof-reading my shit tonight... Sorry, lol.

raven patrol
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It does stink that Zaprilator and Useful Zap Gun are the only Zap Gun buff mods, and both approaches could be OP

unreal ginkgo
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I'm getting no results on Thunderstore about it.

raven patrol
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Shoot teammate’s corpses to revive them

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I could be misspelling it

unreal ginkgo
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Defibbing is kinda overpowered... I like how Lethal Company slowly squeezes you more and more dry the more players dead.

jagged nexus
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Like you say it's not a good way to buff the Zap Gun but I really can't think of any other way to buff it, and even then it has other features you might enjoy lol like being able to zap hazards and stuff

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I just disabled everything except the bee stuff

unreal ginkgo
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Oh yeah, I might readd it because of that. Hazards, despite being invincible, are abysmal to play against.

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Especially turrets, which is why I have HazardControl.

raven patrol
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You could have Teleporter but Ship Guy has fallen out of style in team play

unreal ginkgo
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The zap gun is fine where it is Imo. I can imagine it coming in clutch when you need it, or to kill a forest keeper/bracken/maneater.

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All I did was reduce its price down to (iIrc) $120 since $400 is unacceptable.

shut torrent
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man

raven patrol
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Well at least that

unreal ginkgo
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man

jagged nexus
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The zap gun in vanilla is entirely pointless lol

unreal ginkgo
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Thankfully, this isn't vanilla, but I agree, though just because of its price tag.

raven patrol
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I mean I could see insane techs with Zap Gun to kill certain enemies

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Far beyond my skill level

unreal ginkgo
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I feel like I'm underutilizing the store's item selection, which results in me and Purple savescumming a lot.

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I really need to branch out more and stop savescumming.

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Though, we savescummed on Wither a lot because I designed it to be abysmal, but fun, so it gets a pass.

raven patrol
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In a way Savescumming makes Zaprilator more appealing because if you do too poorly you savescum anyway

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So the issue it presents is not a concern with that style of play

shut torrent
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Btw, I noticed we were talking about thumpers earlier

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I definitely think they're a power level 3 threat

unreal ginkgo
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Due to how hard they are without shovels, but how easy they are with shovels, there's really no middle ground, but due to the former, I think three is ultimately the best choice.

raven patrol
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I just think they are closer to Spider or Maneater than Jester and Bracken

unreal ginkgo
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I'd prefer to have thumpers be too easy rather than too aids.

shut torrent
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What makes them stand apart from Spiders is their mobility, aggressiveness, and their sheer presence and brute force

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Spiders are passiveious

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They're deadly, but they're slow, and don't aggro easily unless you go out of your way to remove them

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A thumper will bulldoze your team

unreal ginkgo
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Ya

shut torrent
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So you gotta bulldoze them first >:)

raven patrol
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Spiders are aggressive though, they chase you halfway across the map if you take a wrong step

shut torrent
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Yeahhhhh maybe

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But also they're slow

unreal ginkgo
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Even with shovels, thumpers can fuck you up badly, which can lead you to easier deaths from other entities.

shut torrent
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And can't cross gaps

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And have a hard time opening doors

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And get stuck on stairs

unreal ginkgo
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My fat ass cat is rummaging below my desk...

shut torrent
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Even with how much experience I have killing each entity in the game, I'd still absolutely say I'd rather deal with a spider rather than a thumper

unreal ginkgo
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He isn't actually fat btw, don't worry, but he is muscular and tall.

marble spruce
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thumpers move really weirdly and it feels inconsistent sometimes

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i do not like fighting them

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Weird take but i would rather fight nut than thump

unreal ginkgo
raven patrol
unreal ginkgo
shut torrent
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I love fighting thumpers because I get to whack them in the face with a blunt object, they make a satisfying noise and animation when I hit them, and I get the satisfaction of removing a dangerous monster from the board so to speak

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Just to mention in the comparison between both

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2 misc notes

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There can only ever be one spider

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You never have to juggle multiple, and if you kill one another will never spawn

marble spruce
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yeah hitting a thumper is oddly satisfying

shut torrent
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Meanwhile there can be multiple thumpers at once, and having to 2v1 or 3v1 a thumper group is just

marble spruce
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its like

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hitting a big red button

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lol

shut torrent
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It's horrible

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So much can go wrong fighting multiple thumpers

unreal ginkgo
shut torrent
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Oh yeah I was practicing that too

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It's surprisingly good

unreal ginkgo
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The thumper's slowdown and the knife's swing speed go hand-in-hand 🤑

shut torrent
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@unreal ginkgo

unreal ginkgo
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Thumpers hate this one simple trick!

shut torrent
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Yeah, our last session of arduous classic we almost exclusively started using knives

marble spruce
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omg thats sick

shut torrent
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And then one thing lead to another andddddd

raven patrol
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And these guys say they are not that good at the game

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I can hardly handle a Masked

unreal ginkgo
shut torrent
raven patrol
shut torrent
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Probably

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lol

shut torrent
# shut torrent

@unreal ginkgo btw flawless 3 bracken kills in a row knife only

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And then I went from that to practicing against every entity

unreal ginkgo
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That's not as surprising due to knives being weightless

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But still cool nonetheless

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I know you can do it easily with adult maneaters I think

shut torrent
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Hold up

unreal ginkgo
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Unknown

shut torrent
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I gotta remember how to post discord videos

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lol

unreal ginkgo
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Did you block me wtf? lol

image.png
shut torrent
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Wot

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Nah I didn't

unreal ginkgo
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OH

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It's my message logger

shut torrent
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Ooooof lol

unreal ginkgo
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Why doesn't it display video thumbnails as black and white wtf

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Anyways, but yeah, I would imagine this isn't very viable in the Factory unless the fight takes place at main

shut torrent
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You mean fighting the bracken?

unreal ginkgo
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Yeah, unless you pull off some door bullshit like how you do with maneaters

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...somehow

shut torrent
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You can actually fight the bracken in nearly any space provided you have the skill

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I've killed the bracken in the factory hallways multiple times

unreal ginkgo
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Even in the tight corridors of the Factory, or its loot room tiles?

shut torrent
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You just gotta watch out for pipes and such

shut torrent
unreal ginkgo
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Noted, I will practice that tonight

shut torrent
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It's very difficult mind you

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But it can be done

unreal ginkgo
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If it's at least consistently viable, then it's good enuff for me

shut torrent
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In terms of bracken fighting viability, you can pretty much fight them anywhere in mineshaft provided you're not in the caves

unreal ginkgo
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Consistetency is better than it being simply possible

shut torrent
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And you can fight them anywhere in mansion usually

unreal ginkgo
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...except for the Mineshaft's caves, but that's obvious

shut torrent
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Factory is the hardest place to fight a bracken, but it can be done nearly anywhere

unreal ginkgo
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Unfortunately, the factory is the most common interior of them all lol

shut torrent
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Just gotta be mindful of your movement and surroundings

shut torrent
unreal ginkgo
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Isn't it common in Purple's modpack as well?

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I didn't note stuff like that in his modpack

shut torrent
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I haven't paid much attention, but it comes up frequently

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There's usually a good blend of interiors

raven patrol
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Arduous stat dump when

unreal ginkgo
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You can just check his CC config for that

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and if you're sweaty, do the math yourself, I guess

raven patrol
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I would imagine Bozoros interior being Factory reskin means that interior is the most common

unreal ginkgo
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That how it was in mine

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Unrelated, but we should play my modpack sometime if y'all and free and up for it

raven patrol
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I am not too good at the game but I am up for playing with people

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Free most evenings

shut torrent
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Yeah sure, sounds like fun

unreal ginkgo
raven patrol
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Sounds good

unreal ginkgo
raven patrol
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Though my skill issues can be genuinely frustrating

unreal ginkgo
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Don't worry, I die a metric fuckton as well

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We can share the same pain together lol

raven patrol
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We shall see

unreal ginkgo
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When would that be, anyway? Probably not tonight I'm guessing since it's around 2 AM for y'all.

raven patrol
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It is midnight for me

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West Coast US

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Anyway I can play tomorrow

unreal ginkgo
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Dub

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"Bro Arduous Hardships and Confined Contract are so peak"

The peak in question:

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Confined Contract is my modpack's name btw if you're confused

shut torrent
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This is from one of my favorite ironman runs I ever did

unreal ginkgo
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Thanks, Discord

shut torrent
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Discord really do be like that sometimes

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Also I'm available whenever

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God I need to go back to hardcore ironman attempts at some point

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Been so fatigued lately

unreal ginkgo
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I need my lazy ass to last a quota solo

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I play so much solo but usually never complete a single quota

shut torrent
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I don't really play solo beyond ironman runs

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I think the last time I legit tried to play solo, I had a hacker join my game and ruin my save file

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That was a year ago

unreal ginkgo
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I didn't know that could happen in Lethal Company

unreal ginkgo
shut torrent
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Yeah he joined in the small moment before I hit the lever, then clipped the ship terminal through a wall and one hit killed me with a shovel

shut torrent
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It's past my bedtime

unreal ginkgo
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Oh, the life of being a night owl

shut torrent
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Yeah

unreal ginkgo
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Not your fault tho lol, gn

shut torrent
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I know that feel

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I alternate between day bird and night owl weekly

unreal ginkgo
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The old bird relative the Company DOESN'T want you to know about...

shut torrent
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Yeah

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God zeekers please add in the ability to kill old birds

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Not because it's a good inclusion but because my bloodlust must be satiated

unreal ginkgo
shut torrent
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Yeah you're right

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I think I've killed them using one a couple of times

unreal ginkgo
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I find it more satisfying to kill entities with earth leviathans because they can easily kill you as well in the crossfire

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So pulling it off successfully is fun

shut torrent
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I once had this eclipsed experimentation where I killed 4 eyeless dogs using the earth leviathan

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It was also the same run where I got to embrion on hardcore ironman

unreal ginkgo
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Bro thinks they're playing Cuphead WHAT

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damn

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Cool

shut torrent
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Yeah

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I only died because I had a brain fart and forgot I had 3 stun grenades in my back pocket

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It was so embarrassing

fresh dagger
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so cool

analog cypress
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Idk when it will be the next update, but I would appreciate if the fox was nerfed to have 5 health instead of 7 as you added YesFox as a dependency

jagged nexus
analog cypress
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I really hate to add mods required by all clients because I have to make my friends import the code with the specified settings

jagged nexus
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Then disable YesFox

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It's not required

analog cypress
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ButteryBalance is a exception because it allows client to sync config with the host

jagged nexus
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I believe KidnapperFoxSettings does too

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I've changed settings for it ingame before and it syncs to clients

analog cypress
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Didn't know

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But i was just suggesting a rebalance, 7 HP is a lot

jagged nexus
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Eh it's pretty balanced when you consider how neutered the fox's ai is now, I genuinely miss it behaving properly like it did in V56 and it sucks we have to deal with it with unfinished ai changes

analog cypress
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What's wrong with his AI

jagged nexus
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I went into detail in the Yes Fox thread

image.png
daring oar
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just havent yet

analog cypress
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i guess that works as well

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i was thinking about being able to kill it with a close shot with the shotgun

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you would be able to kill it from far with 2 shots if it was 6

daring oar
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i like the fox taking 2 shots

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i just think having to get 1 point blank shot followed by another shot from any range is a bit too much

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6 allows 2 medium range shots to kill

placid phoenix
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Hi! Quick question
Does this mod make any changes to the Kidnapper Fox? And if not may I ask why a mod that reenables it is a dependency?

raven patrol
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It allows you to prevent the spawning of Vain Shrouds on Titan and Embrion

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YesFox is not required, you can just remove it into not want it, Buttery just considers it to be part of the complete package

placid phoenix
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Gotcha, well I'll definitely be doing that then.
Weird that it's just set as a dependency without actually being that?

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Maybe any sort of mention of that being the intended vision but optional on the mod page would preferable?

raven patrol
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It is called a soft dependency, this is available to any mod maker

daring oar
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it's marked as a dependency because certain settings don't make sense without it

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i added a note to the thunderstore page but that won't show until i upload the new readme

placid phoenix
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ah okay

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Well either way, thanks for the answers!

daring oar
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which will come whenever i release the next version

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normally i don't add dependencies to the thunderstore page unless it's absolutely necessary

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i.e. barber fixes needs vent spawn fix or you can't increase the group size, but it's not marked as a dependency (partly because barbers don't spawn in groups with vanilla settings)

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but my thought process with this one is that i want everything to work as intended if you install it and touch none of the config

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and if someone is configuring the mod, it would be easy enough for them to

  1. disable yesfox
  2. go into yesfox's settings and disable spawn chance for weeds and/or the fox
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either of which would work

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also this mod prevents vanilla clients from joining anyway, so that's not a dealbreaker from yesfox being installed

raven patrol
daring oar
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yes i agree

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i dont know when i will release the next update

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because i have a laundry list of things i want to do with it

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but it will be part of the next update

raven patrol
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Very good

daring oar
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i wish i had been keeping better notes

balmy pier
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you probably wont do or even consider this as a possible addition

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but i think an option to make dogs unable to hear shovels hitting them or knives stabbing them wouldnt be an unfair thing really

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killing a dog takes a lot of time, they have a cap of 8, and you can still easily die to one if they couldnt hear them

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most people would probably still not try to do it anyways, its more so just a spitball idea to make the consideration less insane

runic cobalt
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I dont think you're really meant to kill dogs though (if this mod is going for a sort of vanilla+ vibe)

raven patrol
unreal ginkgo
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If it ultimately makes them actually fairer, then I would agree.

daring oar
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im not going to do that

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a dog is going to notice you attacking it

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so to begin with it makes no sense

balmy pier
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ok true it would probably feel it

daring oar
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but also dogs are not meant to be fought in the first place

unreal ginkgo
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All this change would do is make fighting eyeless dogs a little less annoying. You still have a high chance of dying due to either of remaining crouched within their jaws, or making noise which leads them straight to you.

daring oar
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this is a problem with thumpers and not a problem with dogs

daring oar
unreal ginkgo
daring oar
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that's why i also dont want to make the shotgun kill them easier

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one of the things i like is that stormy weather makes it really easy to kill dogs

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at least, comparatively easier

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it is one of those niche interactions that can actually make weather desirable rather than a straight nerf to player productivity

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and i think dogs being easier to fight devalues that

raven patrol
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Loud Horn’s only real use is Dog counterplay by keeping them stuck aggroed at the front of the ship funny enough

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If Dogs are annoying you are meant to use that

daring oar
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i was thinking i might try to fix the dogs' unused cowering behavior

#

in v50 zeekerss added an animation where dogs get stuck in place rolling on the floor covering their ears

raven patrol
#

I actually heard about that, it was meant to be used with Old Birds apparently

daring oar
#

it was intended to be used by the old bird's sound cannon but never got finished i suppose

#

or maybe he cut it

#

i dunno

#

anyways i think restoring it for the loud horn would be cool and give it a special purpose

#

but i think permastunning dogs with it would be super OP

#

so it probably needs to be sorta inconsistent

#

or maybe it can freeze dogs until the horn is released but then they all enter the ship if the door is open

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

or maybe they can still kill players while the horn is on

unreal ginkgo
#

I really want to see it

daring oar
#

so you need to freeze them in good spots

#

etc.

#

i need to figure out something

raven patrol
#

It could be only in close proximity to the ship

daring oar
#

oh yeah they'd need to be real close to the horn for sure

#

like, right next to (or on) the decks close

raven patrol
unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

i dont have one no

unreal ginkgo
#

Fuck

daring oar
#

i'd be surprised if nobody has uploaded it anywhere

unreal ginkgo
#

Do you mind recording it whenever you get the chance

daring oar
#

using the loud horn has only been safe for us if the door is closed

raven patrol
#

True but not hard to close the doors

daring oar
#

maybe we are accidentally making footstep sounds or mic sounds but i think it's just random pathfinding being random

#

we've had much better luck just blaring the horn long enough for them to growl

#

so they go to the front but don't start lunging

daring oar
raven patrol
#

I like to hold it to make them lunge because it often gets them into that bugged perma-lunge where they are basically immobile

#

You can then let off the horn and a couple dogs are passive for up to a minute or more

#

I will say, if I had to pick between Loud Horn stunning Dogs or Worms I would pick Worms

#

Dogs already good counterplay

viscid edge
daring oar
#

i dont have a clip of it but it's exactly what it sounds like

#

their hind legs are on the ground like usual

#

but they wildly scratch their head against the floor and cover "their ears" with their front legs

viscid edge
#

hm

daring oar
#

i might be able to grab some footage of it in a little while

viscid edge
#

i wonder if you could make it so they use that animation as a stun for stun grenades and homemade flashbangs but not the zap gun

viscid edge
#

does the shrink mineshafts config break if you have something else that shrinks mineshafts (like rebalanced mineshafts)?

daring oar
#

im not sure exactly what terra did to shrink the mineshafts, but i would be willing to guess his changes apply with mine at the same time, given how i wrote it

#

so they would be double shrunk

#

for a bit of clarity i just multiply the dungeon's size by 0.81x if mineshaft interior is selected

#

with an additional multiplier for titan (~0.9x)

#

and i also slightly shrink mineshaft on dine if you have rend's shrink setting enabled (so rend mineshaft doesn't outcompete dineshaft's scrap density)

#

on artifice, mineshaft does not have interior size expanded if you use the setting to increase factory/manor size, either

daring oar
#

it will overwrite

#

i couldnt really do multipliers because there's no guarantee each time my code runs that the levels will be in their original state

#

if the selectablelevels persist between scenes it would cause multipliers to stack on top of each other

#

anyways that's why there's a kill switch under moons

#

if you want to give control back to LLL

#

just turn on the kill switch and configure the moons there

daring oar
#

but the kill switch will block my mod from making any changes at all

#

i have no idea

#

always rainy:

  1. enables the "override weather" flag in march's SelectableLevel (which replaces clear weather with another weather type, in this case rainy)
  2. adds clear weather as an option in march's SelectableLevel's randomWeathers list
daring oar
#

been having fun with 10 power dine

daring oar
#

offense and march feel really good too

balmy pier
#

ok well in fairness i showed you the eject button strat

daring oar
#

i do worry a bit that offense is only as good as it is because of mineshaft

#

but in fairness i did reduce adamance's mineshaft bonus

#

so it's probably okay

marble spruce
#

offense power is too high but thats a discussion nobody is ready for

analog cypress
#

idk how is this possible, but i played sometimes on Offense and got 2 times in a row a big boulder blocking the main entrance

#

needs rebalance 🔥

marble spruce
#

hmm

#

that means offense has no spawn blockers near main

analog cypress
marble spruce
#

oh does it?

#

id probably just make it use the tundra one, tbh

analog cypress
#

a little darker to give that feeling of emptiness

marble spruce
#

oh yeah i could fuck w the exposure too

#

but i feel like the texture is alr perfect

#

its just dark grey encompassing clouds

#

gordion has constant storms from what i remember

balmy pier
#

yes

marble spruce
#

i also have to fix stoopid null error

#

idk what is nulling out though Lol

#

im bad at profiling for things

#

i can prolly just add some debug logs and figure out that way

#

i will admit i have been distracted by minecraft like Mrov

daring oar
#

i can actually fix that in this mod

#

since it's required by all clients

#

boulder gen is clientside so i haven't been able to address it anywhere else

analog cypress
#

please do that

#

tired of constantly being hit with the fact that offense is the worst moon

raven patrol
#

I think Offense and Adamance are too high

#

Buttery has corrected the moons in other ways though so this is not a problem here

daring oar
#

well offense is kind of characterized by being out of line with the rest of its tier

raven patrol
#

Still bad

#

It can be hard for its tier without being nearly as hard as Dine

vapid pier
#

how is it as hard as Dine

#

just asking

raven patrol
#

It’s not

#

But it is not too far off

vapid pier
#

ok so we're just gonna

#

ok

#

im not even gonna try im too lazy rn

daring oar
#

i just think offense stops being offense if you pull back the indoor spawns too much

#

4 spawns per wave on an eclipsed free moon is fucking terrible

#

which is why i made it 3 (and reduced adamance from 3 to 2, like march)

raven patrol
#

Eclipse nerf and Coil Head power nerf are fine enough for me

daring oar
#

i guess i could tweak the weights of coils and thumpers but if you do it too much then it starts to blend together with the other moons

#

although i think coil and thumper rates make offense way more dangerous than the other tier 2s, it at least contributes to offense's unique identity

#

experimentation and assurance feel pretty much the same on the inside despite some superficial differences

#

same for vow and march

#

etc.

#

offense is one of the few that feels unique even if it's extremely difficult as a result

raven patrol
# vapid pier ok so we're just gonna

In vanilla, Dine only has Offense beat due to the exterior imo. Dine has at least decent loot (only somewhat worse than Rend) while Offense has bad loot, and while Offense has a lower power level it spams 1 power enemies like Coil Heads and Hydrogeres that combo very bad with the Thumpers. Dine pulls ahead due to the terrible exterior, but both moon’s exteriors suffer from slow transfers

daring oar
#

yeah they are kind of more like yin/yang here

#

i intended for the rend:dine comparison to match assurance:offense

#

so rend is smaller and safer

#

but dine is more lucrative in exchange for being larger and more violent

#

dine actually feels pretty fun with 10 power level outside

#

it's just the problem was that it came in the same update that buffed the curve and decreased dog chance (increasing forest giants in return)

analog cypress
#

i mean

#

I would still conside Offense to be worse than Dine

#

Vanilla

#

boulder can generate on entrance
fire exit requires extension ladder
bad scrap pool
high max power inside
dangerous monsters
high mineshaft interior chance
only free moon that doesn't spawn bee hives

daring oar
#

which would make it pretty common to get 3 giants each day

analog cypress
#

Dine i can at least get a good run with many loots and get rich

#

can't do the same with offense

raven patrol
daring oar
#

i'd argue you can get value out of both

#

neither is unplayably bad

#

if you had asked me before v60 i would've said offense is definitely worse than dine

#

but it's pretty hard to say

#

dine's exterior is probably my vote for worst exterior in the game

#

even embrion is relatively manageable with the cruiser if you go the way of the fire exit

raven patrol
#

Dine at least has a bottom line on par with Rend, what does Offense have

analog cypress
#

Only that

daring oar
#

dine has a bunch of hills and tight squeezes to drive through, max forest giant rates, both of the entrances are in the center of the map where they are constantly being swarmed, etc.

raven patrol
vapid pier
#

Does Offense have more average scrap than Adamance bc of Mineshaft

daring oar
#

meaning that the items are considerably worse

analog cypress
raven patrol
analog cypress
#

Leave the loot near the ship guy

#

Adventure inside

daring oar
#

and i assume by "bottom line" you aren't including nutcrackers which make the difference even worse

analog cypress
#

No danger going back

#

It's pretty good in my opinion

#

But I would prefer going to a bad very profitable moon (Dine) than an bad moon (Offense)

daring oar
#

offense actually generates more profit than assurance on average, but it's comparatively less dense because of the interior size

raven patrol
daring oar
#

and assurance has better items because they are lighter weight

#

you are far more likely to full clear assurance than offense

raven patrol
analog cypress
#

(Me)

daring oar
#

anyways

#

i could maybe see un-buffing adamance's scrap and making it a bit more peaceful on the inside

raven patrol
#

I would not put it past my group to use the TP + iTP force inverse trick if I constantly stayed on ship

daring oar
#

so that offense would sit alone as the most dangerous + most profitable tier 3

#

but i think adamance being as challenging as it is for a free moon is a good thing

#

the outdoors are only overtuned a little bit

#

imo

analog cypress
#

I hate adamance more than offense for personal reasons, can't talk about any way to rebalance because I just hate the exterior

daring oar
#

but it is one of the most fun levels to play already and i dont want to change a ton about it

raven patrol
#

The tier 2s are just so weird on vanilla, Offense and Adamance are beyond their tier while March is an rng fest, there is no normal moon

#

I personally like downscaling Adamance and making it the in-scale moon, it gives Offense some of its prestige back

analog cypress
#

They're weird because getting lots of money on Assurance and Vow is easier

raven patrol
#

Not sure about Vow, fire is awkward and the spawns can be annoying

#

You have to rely on bees which are also unreliable

daring oar
#

vow is pretty decent

#

but you need mineshafts to generate for it to outcompete assurance's value

#

and even then, vow is already larger than assurance, combined with mineshafts being even larger

#

it takes a lot more skill to clear vow than assurance

#

assurance is really the problem child of the free moons in every way it possibly can be

raven patrol
#

Vow is fine for tier 1 imo, Assurance just needs a little nerf, which is what this mod does

balmy pier
#

vow was always better than assurance if you had multiple people

#

in the case of solo assurance is better

daring oar
#

assurance generates more items and those items are also generally higher quality

#

and it's a 1x interior compared to a 1.15x interior

raven patrol
balmy pier
#

march has an even worse interior size issue

daring oar
#

anyways the way the math works out for averages (which are only a small slice of the actual picture) vow only has ~$40 extra compared to assurance on the interior

#

and that is including the calculation of +6 scrap 45% of the time

#

i dont account for bees in any of my calculations though because they are kind of annoying to puzzle out

balmy pier
#

well another reason i believe what i said is cause vow is also generally safer than assurance

#

at least in my experience

daring oar
#

i do not agree whatsoever

raven patrol
#

No way

balmy pier
#

but thats talking no mineshaft

daring oar
#

higher power level, bracken feels basically guaranteed, vow spawns coilheads, maneater spawns all the time

#

there is basically no category where vow is safer than assurance

balmy pier
#

exterior?

daring oar
#

if we're talking pure vanilla it also tends to have 2 giants outside and their line of sight mechanics makes that terrible

#

but to be honest i kind of just assume fairgiants in any sort of balance discussion because i think forest giants' problems are most likely to just be bugs

#

even with fair giants the worst you tend to get on assurance is random dogs and worms

analog cypress
#

Vow is not safer than assurance in any way

#

I prefer dealing with dogs instead of forest keepers

raven patrol
#

Worms can be annoying but Assurance has that light parkour from the pipe on top of the rocks that can skip a lot of their patrol paths

analog cypress
#

Just one camping main entrance on Vow is enough to ruin your run

raven patrol
#

Vow you have to play the Giant’s game

analog cypress
#

Vow compensate alot with the bee hives

#

If you're lucky enough

raven patrol
#

Tbf exterior is where they are the closest difficulty wise, Worms’ dangerousness are understated imo. Even with their v50 nerf they can just decide you are dying

analog cypress
#

Profit summary:
Go Assurance if you're solo
Go Vow if you're with a group
Go March if you're feeling lucky today (+ cruiser)

jagged nexus
#

@daring oar Just wanted to let you know that I think your Barber Rebalance prevents Barbers from spawning outdoors on moons that have them in the outdoor spawn pool

#

Was testing it today and went to a moon that always spawns them outside and none spawned outside

daring oar
#

it wouldnt be doing that

#

but if it generates a mineshaft interior

#

it would still cap barbers at 1 on the map

#

that value is shared between interior and exterior

#

(because in vanilla, no enemy exists in both classes anyway)

#

so if it spawns barbers both inside and outside, it would only put barbers outside

#

or inside

#

a single barber in one or the other

jagged nexus
#

Maybe that's why, I think with Dopa's stuff it considers inside and outside seperate

#

I would guess most likely it was prioritizing spawning them inside but outside spawns got messed with

#

I could be wrong though

daring oar
#

if a mineshaft generated and a barber spawned inside

jagged nexus
#

@marble spruce Do you remember how you handle it for Clay Surgeon Overhaul?

balmy pier
#

its random if it spawns outside or inside first

daring oar
#

it would not allow other barbers to spawn outside

#

yes

marble spruce
jagged nexus
marble spruce
#

i dont handle anything regarding outside

daring oar
#

no

jagged nexus
daring oar
#

only if there is a mineshaft interior selected do barbers get capped

jagged nexus
daring oar
#

in any other case it reverts back to 2/8

#

in the future i can add an additional check where if it's a mineshaft, it checks if the current level spawns barbers inside

#

but that's about the extent i'd want to try and handle

jagged nexus
#

Yeah

daring oar
#

if you get a mineshaft with barbers both inside and outside

#

you would just be out of luck at that point

jagged nexus
#

Actually I see Clay Surgeon Overhaul changes their power level to be 2, what is the vanilla power level they have? Maybe that's why I saw less outside

#

since I was using your settings instead of CSO's

daring oar
#

vanilla barbers have 1 power level

jagged nexus
#

Ah so theoretically I should have saw them more then

#

LOL

#

I'm gonna chalk it up to some strange rng

daring oar
#

in other news

#

barber infestations are done now

#

i believe

#

i wasn't really sure what to do with clay surgeon overhaul @marble spruce

jagged nexus
#

So how will Barber Infestations work compared to CSO's?

daring oar
#

do you want me to just preserve your infestation behavior (using vanilla with barbers as rush index, power level = max barbers * count)

#

or should i "convert" them into the custom infestation behavior

#

for example i blacklisted them in mineshaft

#

and while i dont hard lock other enemies from spawning i do reduce the power level that can be spent on other enemies

jagged nexus
#

I admit I got an infestation today and I wasn't sure how I felt about the rework, I got 8 Nutcrackers, 4 Barbers, and it forced Mantis Shrimps to spawn even though I set their weight to 0

#

lol

#

I kinda prefer Vanilla's even if it is wild

daring oar
#

it forced Mantis Shrimps to spawn even though I set their weight to 0
i dont do this

#

my rework actually exists to solve this issue

marble spruce
jagged nexus
#

Hmmmm

daring oar
#

where vanilla will spawn all enemies in a moon's spawn list with equal weight

jagged nexus
#

I wonder what caused it lol

daring oar
#

include enemies that are 0 weight

daring oar
jagged nexus
#

and caused some odd behavior

daring oar
#

yeah, if you get a barber infestation from CSO

#

my infestation behavior does not activate

marble spruce
daring oar
#

because i wanted to properly implement barber infestations

jagged nexus
#

Yeah makes sense why it was so weird then

daring oar
#

not saying dopadream did it wrong, i mean

#

anyways

daring oar
#

right now my infestation logic activates if enemyRushIndex != -1

marble spruce
#

i just want klay world to work xd

daring oar
#

so it can be automatically compatible with stuff like rngconfigurator

marble spruce
#

idc about anything else

daring oar
#

by the looks of things klay world just skips the random chance

marble spruce
#

i forgot how i did it

#

ngl

daring oar
#

and turns any non-infestation day into a barber infestation by setting enemyRushIndex

#

which means it would work

#

the current version of brb just skips my infestation logic completely if an infestation is active for barbers

marble spruce
#

canon CSO lore

daring oar
#

but i will "convert" it in this next version

#

i suppose

#

what should i do about mineshaft

#

i have infestation weights set up and it treats barbers as 0 weight if it's a mineshaft

#

but to make klay world work i need to convert your pre-computed clay surgeon index into a guaranteed barber infestation

#

so do you want me to have the barber infestation always take priority if your mod assigns it

#

or blacklist the mineshaft

#

former would allow klay world to work in mineshafts

#

latter would not

daring oar
#

so in hindsight i will just allow it

marble spruce
#

yes

#

fuck fairness

#

go my surgeons

unreal ginkgo
#

Can the nutcracker rotate at a slower speed when you shoot them with a shotgun while the Last Stand option is enabled

#

It is hard (And kind of not fun, but nutcrackers need to be buffed somehow) to escape a nutcracker when they immediately bolt around an fire at you faster than you can normally react

daring oar
#

no because the whole point is that they immediately fire

#

with a slower rotation speed you'd be able to fire twice in a row if you shoot them from behind

#

the firing delay of a nutcracker at 1 HP is 0.5s and the shotgun's fire delay is 0.7s

#

so at most they can only take 0.2s to rotate or the setting doesnt solve the problem it's supposed to

unreal ginkgo
#

So what's the counter-play?

daring oar
#

damage them with something else before you shoot them

#

shoot them while they are reloading

#

shoot them close enough to cover that you can hide before they fire

#

etc

unreal ginkgo
#

You raise a fair point.

marble spruce
#

@daring oar hi

daring oar
#

hello

wind spoke
#

h

raven patrol
#

h

unreal ginkgo
#

󠀡󠀡

unborn kindle
analog cypress
#

Perhaps an unpopular opinion but Rend's building should be like this

image.png
#

It gives the feeling of a mansion but also fits other exteriors

balmy pier
#

wait until this guy learns its a church

daring oar
balmy pier
#

damn

dry current
#

that shit looks like a barn idc

wind spoke
analog cypress
analog cypress
analog cypress
daring oar
#

i would be more likely to substitute it for the vow/adamance factory

#

but also i probably am not going to change it

wind spoke
#

yeah this might be a better conversation for Rebalanced moons

daring oar
#

at some point dopadream was going to make new buildings for most of the maps

#

i dont know if that is still in her plans

#

but i know narpy posted some sketches for artifice and embrion

wind spoke
marble spruce
#

it looks a lot like a church building

marble spruce
#

they're still being added im just slow '

daring oar
#

something i really like to do with "my balance" (if it hasn't become apparent already) is just rollback changes zeekerss has made that i don't agree with

#

or shift around the vanilla values

#

(i.e. i buffed offense by basically just hotswapping most of its shit loot with assurance's rarities, and vice versa)

#

and i've always been sort of interested in looking back at the balance of v9 to apply some more of those changes

#

specifically with the scrap and enemy tables

#

anyways there's a lot of interesting stuff happening here

#

somewhat unsurprisingly

#

offense basically did not change at all after v9

#

outside of him adding the new scraps

image.png
#

what is interesting is the fact that assurance and offense used to be almost identical (assurance left, offense right)

image.png
#

except that interestingly assurance had a chance to spawn gold bars, just like march

analog cypress
#

That's because technically Assurance and Offense were part of the same moon

#

but then got separated, don't remember the reason and Offense became an asteroid moon

#

i feel like most of the changes being reverted were caused because of Zeekerss burnout constantly updating the game at the time

daring oar
#

lol coilheads were 100 weight on rend in v9

#

that sounds like it would've been something

#

march in v9 has almost the exact same loot table as assurance did in v38

#

it's very interesting to me

#

it seems like he just shifted all the values into assurance's file and then march got a bunch of nerfs

#

i know i'm obsessing a lot over numbers and patterns and stuff but this is all so fascinating to me

summer elm
daring oar
#

he had reduced to 70 by the time the game launched

#

but rend was still the definitive coilhead moon until v45 added nutcrackers

#

and then they got reduced to 43 and nutcrackers were added at 100

#

and vanilla still has the bug where nutcrackers can scale to over 100 weight

#

so that really transformed the moon

#

i still wonder if coil hell was part of the reason that dine seemed appealing in v49

#

there are a ton of v49 dine enjoyers even despite the fact that zeekerss basically gave it no perks over rend, especially after v45

#

i wonder if the dine cult began because coils on rend sucked and it was just more fun to play against traps + thumpers + etc. on dine

#

and then when the nutcracker renaissance began, there was still a cult following for dine that just never disappeared

#

am i over-analyzing all this?

#

yeah

#

anyways

summer elm
#

i think theres a lot of overlap between butler enjoyers and dine enjoyers

#

so itd track ig

analog cypress
#

The best part about Dine pre-v50 in my opinion was the fire exit compared to Rend

#

althrough it required a Extension Ladder, it was very close to the ship

#

it was "safer" to bring loot and escape giants

daring oar
#

it's legit identical

#

and actually it makes so much sense now too

#

why march and assurance both had 13-16 items in v49

#

that's so fascinating

#

i wonder why he did that

#

copied a loot table and scrap counts from one moon to another

#

beforehand, there have been similarities

#

i.e. rend and dine had identical loot tables in v49 (except i think like 2 or 3 items had minor differences)

#

but that makes sense because zeekerss copy+pasted rend's selectablelevel to make dine

#

he just made a new scene, adjusted the monsters, traps, and added 2 additional items

#

the march and assurance situation is way stranger

#

because assurance was the second planet

#

and march was the 4th

#

and they were radically different in v9

#

but at some point before the game released zeekerss copy+pasted everything from march back into assurance instead

#

and then completely remixed march's table

#

it is an unprecedented occurrence

#

nowhere else (to my knowledge) has that pattern cropped up in the game's design

#

sorry that i am geeking out about this but it's so interesting to me

vapid pier
#

Zeekerss brain

daring oar
#

i just love exploring the "family history" of the levels in this game

#

for the longest time i've assumed that offense began by zeekerss duplicating assurance's level

analog cypress
daring oar
#

and then at some point in development, he just turbo-buffed assurance and left offense untouched

#

but the actual truth is even stranger

#

because v9 does confirm that assurance and offense started out as basically identical twins

#

with very minor alterations

#

but he didn't manually tweak assurance and leave offense in the dust

#

instead, he copied march over on top of assurance, and then offense was left unchanged

#

which had the same effect but it's still such a wild truth

analog cypress
#

this whole time, March was the real goat SipLip

daring oar
#

i love video game archaeology

jagged nexus
daring oar
#

jump strat was definitely not intentional and IIRC it became impossible with the v50 physics change

#

although i havent actually attempted it since v49

#

you'd need to use a mod to restore dine's old terrain anyhow

daring oar
jagged nexus
#

I still think the physics change was weird to do but I don't hate it anymore like I did initially

daring oar
#

in general i love how weather feels like you are fighting against the forces of nature

jagged nexus
#

Initially it felt horrible to play with lol

daring oar
#

and how it generally feels balanced against you

daring oar
jagged nexus
#

Yeah before v50 you never had a slowdown when going up slopes and never sped up when going down slopes and stuff

daring oar
#

like march feels basically impossible to play during floods

analog cypress
#

What is sad to me is that enemies aren't affected during floods

#

only the player

jagged nexus
#

your movement speed was just a constant

#

It feels more realistic now though

daring oar
#

dine having both entrances underwater at the start of the day feels bad

jagged nexus
#

I prefer it how it is now

daring oar
#

stormy weather instant killing you with random unavoidable lightning has always felt bad

#

i dont think any of those are major issues but they are definitely kinks i'd like to see ironed out

jagged nexus
daring oar
#

i like stormy weather

#

the static sounds tingle my brain and i like trying to optimize your juggling game

#

and it has the added boon of letting you nuke dogs and giants if you're lucky

jagged nexus
#

I just use a few mods to make it nicer lol

daring oar
#

anyways

#

i kind of got sidetracked

daring oar
#

in v49

jagged nexus
daring oar
#

v49 dine's light path took basically the longest possible path to the entrance

analog cypress
# analog cypress only the player

Forest keepers could be a little slower, would be funny if dogs could swim, masked shouldn't be able to run, baboon hawk should drown đź’€

daring oar
#

and it dipped so low that by 11 AM it would be underwater and you would drown if you tried to follow it

#

so flooded challenged your knowledge of the map (sort of similar to foggy except i think the dynamic was way more fun)

#

because you needed to know shortcuts off the beaten path to reach the entrance safely for most of the day

#

but even then

#

by around 3 PM the entrance was completely underwater and was no longer safer to return from

#

so it then depends on your knowledge of the fire exit close to the ship, and also depends on your planning ahead to bring a ladder

#

it's just a bunch of micro-challenges packed into one and i thought it was a really cool experience

#

new flooded dine is lame

#

you just have to dip your head under the water for 10 seconds to use the main entrance or use a jetpack for the fire exit

#

until the water drains out later in the day

#

but the water draining thing is done in such a cooler way on adamance

#

idk it's just boring now

analog cypress
#

i don't remember how flooded was during Dine pre-v50 because most people just avoid bad weather

daring oar
#

it just had a cool atmosphere to it

#

i already like how flooded forces you to re-evaluate how you normally path through the maps

#

and makes communication much more of a strain than usual

#

and that combined with dine's open and empty surface and relentless blizzard only increased that stress

#

i think it was the best example lethal company has ever had at capturing the desolation of exploring alien planets with harsh ecosystems

#

i think v50 dine is pretty cool too

#

it's definitely better for giants, which used to be turbo cringe

analog cypress
daring oar
#

but the newer claustrophobic terrain makes dine feel kind of weirdly cozy in a way

#

it's missing the feeling of "wilderness where humans don't belong" that it captured in v49 and that's a bit of a shame

#

rend still captures that feeling pretty well so it's not a total loss

#

i just think OG dine cranked it up to 11

#

and new dine goes off in a diff direction from rend

#

which isn't a bad thing

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

i would love to see dogs swim

analog cypress
unreal ginkgo
#

?? Yes

daring oar
#

im no biologist but TBH baboons drowning sounds funny and they basically have bat wings

analog cypress
#

actually i do wanna see them swim now

daring oar
#

so i don't know how well that would actually support them swimming

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

to be fair their wings can probably push a lot of water, i just don't know that their muscle structure would support the motions of swimming

unreal ginkgo
#

Their spear-shaped horns would be pretty good for fishing I imagine

#

?

analog cypress
#

the employee has skill issue.

daring oar
#

i'd like to see masked have more player-like interactions

#

and being forced to walk through water would be a good example of that that i think would be relatively easy to implement

#

i could probably implement that in a mod pretty easily, actually

#

maybe even this mod (Hmmm)

daring oar
#

i don't like the idea of masked being able to do everything players can

unreal ginkgo
#

Masked having oxygen and stamina bars would make them a little less aggravating, methinks

daring oar
#

like masked being targeted by turrets or grabbed by snare fleas

#

but one interaction i've always thought would be cool is if masked adapted to nutcrackers

naive mesa
#

Probably only when players are around

daring oar
#

since masked and nutcrackers are rend's two big exports

unreal ginkgo
naive mesa
#

To stop masked randomly doing things or even dying when nobody’s there to see it

daring oar
#

if the masked knew that nutcrackers could see them moving, and would freeze in place during an inspection, that would be cool

daring oar
#

it's an invisible mechanic that is not communicated to the player

#

but it exists internally

unreal ginkgo
#

Oh wtf

#

Okay

runic cobalt
analog cypress
#

Entities having fun interactions with other entities/environments is fun in an certain way

unreal ginkgo
analog cypress
#

i thought they're oversized birds

#

not apes

unreal ginkgo
naive mesa
#

I thought they were more related to birds but to be fair I haven’t read the bestiary in a while

#

They do kind of look more like birds

#

Subject to opinion

unreal ginkgo
#

Co-evolution moment

daring oar
naive mesa
daring oar
#

from a gameplay sense i think lethal company would be awful if the interior monsters interacted with each other

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

interior monsters usually have way more mechanics and specific behaviors than the exterior enemies do

unreal ginkgo
#

Wrong reply?

analog cypress
#

Hot take: One of March fire exit should require a extension ladder to reach it, giving +1 utility to the extension ladder Trollface

daring oar
#

and there are several interior enemies that are designed as 1-off encounters

unreal ginkgo
#

Or are you genuinely saying baboon hawks are artificial

daring oar
#

it'd be stupid if the bracken can spawn and then get gunned down by a turret

#

etc.

runic cobalt
daring oar
#

that's why (i think, anyway) for the most part indoor threats basically do not interact with each other

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

but then exteriors have higher spawn rates and higher spawn caps for those enemy types

#

as well as much more room to wander

#

so it makes more sense to have outdoor enemies interacting with each other to form an ecosystem of sorts

#

it would be cool to see cross-species interaction on the insides too, but it would really need to be dialed back to avoid the monsters just killing each other off

unreal ginkgo
#

Seeing earth leviathan pounce on entities from afar is surreal

runic cobalt
daring oar
unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

if they were, say, being chased by a masked, and then they heard a nutcracker start inspecting and the mask froze up next to them

#

subtle stuff like that is always cool to me even if it doesn't crop up often

unreal ginkgo
#

That would be cool yeah

#

Feels similar to when I noticed that the nutcracker's helmet spins when they fire

#

It's so goofy

lilac mica
unreal ginkgo
raven patrol
#

Maybe if my modpack was not so far in development when I found out all that I did about v9 I would have used ideas from it more

raven patrol
unreal ginkgo
#

We've played Purple's, then mine, but I haven't seen yours

raven patrol
#

I am basically ready to show it to you guys, but I am waiting for Terra’s Scrap to get an update. Right now several items in his mod and Immersive Scrap (both are in my modpack) have the exact same internal names, which breaks several moon’s intended loot tables. Terra said he will change the item names in the next update, and after that I just some light testing and it is good to go

unreal ginkgo
#

Wtf

#

Unexpected

raven patrol
#

Terra has said some items were inspired by Immersive Scrap, which I am fine with because it lets me sideline some of my least favorite IS items

Screenshot_101.png
#

The top hat, toaster, and traffic cone were too grimy for my tastes, the other IS are fine

raven patrol
unreal ginkgo
#

Smores was confused(?) by the fact I don't use weather scrap multipliers

#

Is this like

#

a common thing

#

I've never used it nor see the purpose in using it

analog cypress
#

There aren't any benefits of going to weather moons

#

They are just harder for no reason

#

I use MeteoMultiplier with small values that doesn't boost significantly

#

Depending on the weather, is hard to bring loot to the ship too compared to clear weather

#

The small value increase can balance the amount of profit

balmy pier
#

but in the case of vow and adamance, flooded is honestly not that bad

#

and eclipsed on the first 3 moons and march is completely acceptable to be managed

#

i actually quite enjoy going to those 4 moons eclipsed

#

stormy is just RNG if its harder and its easy to optimize lightning stealing a lot of your time

#

foggy isnt as bad as people make it out to be as long as you remember the maps

#

and rainy is just kind of there for the most part and barely actually makes a major difference

analog cypress
#

that's why i said "small values"

unreal ginkgo
#

It’s there to challenge you/gives you an incentive to not stay on the same moon

analog cypress
#

Doesn't always work like that

#

Someone that spent 700 to go to Titan won't back off just because it's Eclipsed

#

Adamance can be Stormy but Assurance can be profitable as well

unreal ginkgo
#

There’s still the former

#

I don’t like getting benefits from weather, it feels like a cop-out

analog cypress
balmy pier
#

i wish mods like this were more customizable

#

like you get the benefit of the eclipsed bonus but only on moons with a spawn cycle of 3 or 4

analog cypress
#

The eclipse value is kinda ramped up, but my team hardly survives on eclipsed

analog cypress
balmy pier
#

the thing is

#

if you know how eclipsed works more technically speaking

#

its an extremely huge benefit for the first 3 moons

#

even just 10% increase

#

but i suppose a majority of people who use these mods dont know this stuff

analog cypress
#

the things is

#

i suffer from skill issue

balmy pier
analog cypress
#

i can hardly clear the first 3 moons with a group

#

we're just dumb

balmy pier
#

ive full cleared eclipsed exp solo multiple times

#

so for me the bonus is advantageous