guardian

[still locust]

It's not like the old version was any better

You just pressed on CD every 5 minutes or whatever the CD was

[near nymph]

anyone? 👀

[still locust]

You could add the trinkets in question to a top gear sim and see what that says

[tranquil oak]

plume is pretty much s tier with gaze

if u dont like puzzle u can play plume

[still locust]

If you don't like puzzle you would probably still benefit more from emberwing feather from windrunner spire

But a sim can tell you

[near nymph]

it sims lower in mythic than heroic plume + it has longer cd than inca Oo

[still locust]

Barely

Incarn is basically 2 minutes

And based on logs I've gone through, even when it goes below 2 minutes people in higher keys hold (for any possible reason) until 2 minutes or more between incarn casts

As an example, it doesn't help to pop incarn as a 1 min 45 sec CD if the mobs are going to die in 10 seconds and you have travel time to next pack

Might aswell just kill mobs normally then and use incarn on next pull

[tranquil oak]

i wouldm take plume because im too lazy to use an extra button xDDD

yea u could macro it but xD it is what it is

[quartz valve]

wrong feather 😉 Plume is from Baloren - its passive, its "on use" click is only to switch between buff - crit or mastery

[vocal tundra]

would you use heroic plum over mythic skyreach trink?

[night field]

I would sim and use whichever one sims higher

[still locust]

Yeah

There aren't many interesting trinkets this season, most (if not all) of them can be solved simply by simming

Since they're all basically just stat procs or stat on use

And the real defensive trinkets are usually just kind of garbage this season

[olive hare]

Though I think plume is nice for people running Low or midlevel keys where pulls dont Last a whole minute. Asssuming it does still reset Out of combat

[still locust]

It resets slowly, a few stacks every second or something out of combat

But even if you're in combat 100% of the time, plume is good

It's just a lot of stat when it resets every minute

The only "problem" is if you desync from it

Like if you pop incarn when plume is at half power, then you have half of a trinket for incarn, reducing down to nothing over the duration

Plume is definitely strong in raid but in m+ it would depend on how strictly you can keep to the 1 min cadence, varying by out of combat time

[hazy mural]

sim plume vs the skyreach myth trinket that gives crit

[still locust]

I would probably personally recommend gaze + emberwing/puzzlebox in general

All 3 are also easily gotten on myth track

Vs. plume which is not

[hazy mural]

think the skyreach one is slept on for bear

least zugzug thrashmode bear

[still locust]

It's alright, nothing amazing though

I think heart of wind in general beats it

But maybe not if you're healsforcash and stack 2k haste on your gear

Then the crit proc might win

[hazy mural]

yh, HOW is 1 of my trinkets, but think SR one likely beats feather

[still locust]

Plume, maybe. Emberwing, doubt

On use is very good with incarn bear

[vocal tundra]

didnt consider this. prob better to stick to others for ease of use

[hazy mural]

excuse u! I dont stack it like mad atm

[still locust]

How much are you at?

[hazy mural]

logging in now to check xD

I do have the WS trinket combo tho... not too much by choice

[still locust]

It's a good combo

Can move stats on other pieces away from haste to compensate if you want to

[hazy mural]

see!?

[olive hare]

Using myth solarprism and pbox for Apex, prism and Heart for No apex. But yeah for the No apex variant with raze and KB i could see Picking pbox instead of another passive

[still locust]

Very reasonable

[still locust]

emberwing roughly equal to pbox for me in no apex setup

This is a sim I ran last reset

[mellow cedar]

Guys is Hearth of the Wind a Strong trinket to pick?

[still locust]

Yeah it's pretty good

[olive hare]

Dont have a myth one yet, Just like myth Heart. I guarantee you those will be my last two bonus items Out of the pool

[mellow cedar]

i have a problem i have not a strong weapon 276 and Trinkets both from Delv with mainstat agi & haste proc & haste with Agi proc yeah and got in Vault Weapon 289 with mastery/crit and Hearth of the Wind 289 also got Scale but HC just. Idk what should i take

https://gyazo.com/be9421e689a33baf14e8a4f8b81ba6b7

atm thats my gear https://gyazo.com/32561b2865d0bb2e3fabe7efd5ce2964

[still locust]

Have you spent any bonus rolls yet?

[hazy mural]

have u done ur bonus rolls yet?

[mellow cedar]

i have 2 yeah

but thinking to use for nxp because just option left is cloak & other BiS Ring there

[brave delta]

I have emberwing since second id, macroed with incarn. I never really ran a sim for it, but it feels really good during incarn.
I also played a bit with troll berserk 10% haste but when I don’t macro it into incarn my lazy ass forgets to use berserk.

[mellow cedar]

last id i used 2 in seat got shoulder/head then other 4 in NXP got there hands/chest/BiS Ring & Boots

[brave delta]

Sadly the troll racial is on a 3 minute timer.

[mellow cedar]

atm is just left Cloak and other BiS Ring

[tulip surge]

Do you guys think it's worth upgrading a Heroic trinket to Mythic track if I know for sure I’ll never kill that boss on Mythic? I'm talking about the Chimera trinket specifically

[hazy mural]

fair enough... id personally take the wep then

and then when u can, get it to 298

[jaunty dragon]

Since you are not killing it would be yes also depending on content you are looking for but majority of content you are good to upgrade it

[gusty heath]

Take the weapon 100% you can upgrade it to 298 and that will be your best upgrade bar none

[tulip surge]

M plus lvl 20

[hushed oriole]

Totally. You’re not “wasting” hero crests doing that if that’s the concern. And you can farm the void u/g

[tulip surge]

I dont have trinket mit o only hero :/

[jaunty dragon]

Yeah should be extremly fine

[hushed oriole]

Doesn’t matter! If you’re running +20s I’d imagine the rest of your gear is myth. So it shouldn’t matter. Plus I think we’re at the point in the season when we have more hero crests than slots to upgrade

[jaunty dragon]

But I would say its super easy to pug chima

Just go and bonus roll it

[hushed oriole]

Also this

[jaunty dragon]

As a tank you barely have to do anything in that fight

[mellow cedar]

@gusty heath @hazy mural thank you, i take weapon

[hazy mural]

❤️

[uneven flame]

for what puzzlebox does its really just not that much greater

feather + heart of wind should be higher value, or simply just gaze + something

whaetver the vaelgor trinket is called, most high keys run that + gaze from what ive seen

[waxen bane]

is elunes chosen still better for raiding?

[still locust]

It does a lot more work for dotc apex than it does for EC no apex though

Always sim yourself

[warm mauve]

we are upgrading weapon with voidshard yeah?

[noble perch]

Is the no apex build still the go to?

[still locust]

Yes, myth weapon upgrade is always the best you can do

[still locust]

Need more data from people, but we have like 6 different viable builds

[noble perch]

Ohh ok ty, just saw ur name 😅

[still locust]

A lot of viable builds, play what you enjoy

[uneven flame]

Doesnt matter, aint nobody want to stand still for 2 seconds to fiddle their box

[still locust]

Some people like fiddling with boxes

[uneven flame]

well - i cant really talk until ive gotten a puzzlebox replacement, its currently just sitting in my trinket slot for the agility next to my feather

[still locust]

[uneven flame]

hopefully getting mythic heart of wind from windrunner today

got 3 more drops and 2 more rolls

need belt and trinket

[serene gyro]

What's our go to ring combo? The NPX rings or the SotT rings? Or some other combination?

[still locust]

We like all stats almost equally, NPX ring combo is very good and has a tiny bit of free damage tied to it

The only thing that might win is ring from L'ura in March on Quel'danas since it has 2 sockets

Or ring coming in the .7 raid

Since it drops at higher ilvl

[vocal tundra]

i also have a relly dumb question, when using CAT HOTW, do you have to wait for the sound / combo point to finish before shifting back to bear

[hazy mural]

once u cast HOTW, ur free to go back to bear

[still locust]

Yeah no waiting needed

[night field]

I'm sometimes too fast and it casts wild growth but it still puts me in cat lol

[still locust]

Only for the global cooldown from entering cat form

[still locust]

Sounds like a macro

[night field]

no

[still locust]

Oh

Then just too eager I guess yeah

[night field]

its just timed weird in a gcd or something

[hazy mural]

happens to me if im too hasty yh

my trick is to have HOTW on cdm and u can see the icon change

if it has changed ur good to press it

[still locust]

There's also not really a rush

Since you can't go back to bear form until the GCD ticks down

[iron bane]

So are we just pre walling every pull? Geared my guardian from BrM over the weekend. It feels fine once you get rolling but the start of these pulls is pretty sketchy on 18s+… is it just a pre-walling angle on most of these pulls?

[hazy mural]

always been the case really... with brew u use keg or to start ur ability to stagger and u dont get globalled then

[iron bane]

Yeah

[hazy mural]

with bear u dont have stagger so u need a wall if u dont have good enough ways to live at start

barkskin is a very strong wall

[iron bane]

Yeah

[hazy mural]

usually ppl play the 40 pct talent of it

and only a 36 sec cd or so

34 even

[iron bane]

I mean I’m smashing. I was just making sure I wasn’t doing anything wrong. It does feel pretty sketchy on the start of some of these pulls.

AA first pull still feel fine after nerfs?

[hazy mural]

not tried it, but it should be business as usual

if u stay in for too long and takes ages to get 1 down and u dont kite to reset stacks to never get 5 stacks again, could be deadly

[kind seal]

Outside of ^ its fine

[hazy mural]

honestly, the nerf c ame at a very good time

cause we getting a power spike at the same time as a small nerf

so will feel extra fine xD

[opaque brook]

what bild actual now?

[hazy mural]

same one u loved before

[iron bane]

I mean last week you didn’t need to kite at all… could just sit with 100 stacks of iron fur and infinite healing on that big pull. Now with the nerfs I was wondering if we are actually needing to kite or bring Aug for caut

[hazy mural]

well IF didnt help 1 bit for the bleeds =/

since they ignore armor

its just the infinite healing we did, mainly

[opaque brook]

trash bild -10-15% dps, maybe with raze or apex?

[next nimbus]

I am certain this gets asked a lot, but I just have to verify, we aren't taking any apex talents for M+ Guardian? Haven't played tank durid in like 10 years so honestly starting from scratch.

[still locust]

You can play with or without apex, both are good and viable

[next nimbus]

interesting

Apex seems like a misnomer of they are optional

ty

[still locust]

They did a kneejerk buff to thrash while nerfing our apex burst potential

[next nimbus]

Yeah I heard about that

[still locust]

I personally think apex builds are better overall

It's a better damage profile etc.

[hazy mural]

the ravage/maul nerfs were the real kicker

[still locust]

Nah, the thrash buff was 100% the issue

The maul nerfs was whatever

Thrash should never have gotten buffed by 200%, not even remotely

[hazy mural]

I mean without that bit, apex would just be better

but with it, both can be as good as eachother for different reasons

[waxen bane]

do i use convok in bear or cat

[hazy mural]

nopex is just great for the non nuance it brings, and apex brings good prio

[kind seal]

I'm curious how they'll address the apex now

[still locust]

You would convoke in bear if you have it, but I'm not sure I would recommend playing convoke at all atm

[kind seal]

Saying they'll address our painpoints and give themselves flexibility to do so is... smelling like not just apex changes

[brave raft]

Is there something im missing with gloom-spattered dreadscale? I feel like its value isnt all that high, compared to say gaze - plume combo?

[still locust]

It was used for a bit as a snap-threat tool with a small defensive tied to it before last reset when thrash was buffed

It's an alright trinket, but like you said it's not super high value

[brave raft]

but in all the highest keys done they are using it?

so it has to be more than alright?

[vocal tundra]

ty!

[trim plaza]

Its the best tank trinket this season, but overall not best trinket

[fallen robin]

Best shield trinket you can get this season. Acts as a backup CD. Lots of tanks like the safety net.

[mellow cedar]

Question if i buy the BOE Legs from Auctionhouse Mythic what should be more Haste or Versa for pushing Highkeys or others stats and which stat more

[edgy merlin]

It's a bit of a safety net especially on "hard" bosses. Vexamus, nysarra, last boss in MT, first boss in seat, all have a pretty scary tankbuster if you misuse defensives. Deplete the key to a possible tank death on those or do a bit less overall damage?

Before the thrash buff I alternated the trinket and starfall every second pull for aggro but it's not needed anymore

[nocturne yacht]

did anything change rotation or build wise with the tuning? i only ask because the pin still says as of 06/05 instead of 13/05

[kind seal]

no big changes for the build atm i believe

[kind seal]

everyone will probably say to sim it lol

[mellow cedar]

how i can sim 20 keys and for survival and that stuff, there i can sim just dps, but thats not only important in highkeys ?^^

[still locust]

Simming for survivability isn't something you can readily do

What are you trying to sim for specifically?

[kind seal]

I like balanced stats but im not pushing 20s. I'm just a newbie druid too

[still locust]

All 4 secondary stats are basically the exact same value defensively

If that's your question

[mellow cedar]

want just know if i try to push with my guardian highkeys, which stats should i prefer if i try to buying BOE Legs

[true oyster]

Stats for survivability are so low compared to proper defensive usage

[still locust]

Which is why we recommend just simming for damage, since you'll get almost the exact same defensive value out of picking pieces

The only thing simming won't be able to tell you, is if a cantrip item (an item with a special effect on it), or a defensive trinket is worth using

This season there aren't many useful defensive trinkets

They're all tuned pretty low, and I haven't heard of any truly hard-hitting tank busters, unlike some TWW bosses

[next nimbus]

I'm a special kind of stupid. Just did my first 2 delves as a guardian druid before I realized I didn't have an agility weapon or trinkets.

[still locust]

Whichever is cheaper, or whichever raidbots tells you about

Most of the defensive value of your items come from ilvl

[next nimbus]

To the AH it is

[mellow cedar]

all stats same price, want just know because i have atm all T-pieces Mythic except Legs

[still locust]

The defensive bit is why we recommend just simming

Why giga-optimize defensiveness to not even gain a % gain in EHP when you could let the robot think for you?

Bear is in the unique position that all 4 stats are kind of good

Haste generally pulls a tiny bit ahead

But all 4 are good

[mellow cedar]

y ok have some rl stuff soon to do later i simming it Dungeon Sim i think & nightly or?

[still locust]

I always sim using latest, and most of the time just regular 1 target 5 min, since our stats don't really change between target counts

[proper slate]

I like mastery after haste... a balance among secondaries is good but I feel mastery has slightly more benefits

[still locust]

And comparing 2 different items is easier on a boss with very little variance rather than getting incarn 5 seconds later so now it doesn't line up with the adds on the dslice sim

[red knoll]

I need to start leaning more crit in raid

My echos aren't critting and it really hurts after the nerf

[edgy merlin]

just roll with low crit but get lucky

that's the real way

[crystal lake]

Have been on shift all week how’s guardian feeling after Tuesday?

[red knoll]

Bro my echos were under brambles last night

I wanted to kms

[still locust]

Just fine

[proper slate]

The same just lower dmg

[still locust]

In raid??

[red knoll]

Yes

[still locust]

Nah man something fucked up for sure

Did you step out of range and kill your echoes?

[crystal lake]

Awesome, same build as last week?

[fallen robin]

Stealth nerfed echoes?

[red knoll]

Monk co tank was taunting early

[still locust]

We still have 6 viable builds. The main meme build from last week got slightly more nerfed than the other builds, but not significantly so

[red knoll]

On saladbar

Which could've killed it

[proper slate]

How critical is it to take waking nightmare? I kind of want I skip it or sundering roar for the really juicy talents in the middle row of the tree

[fair junco]

I was about to ask what other builds everyone is trying! I like the meme build if i want to chill, but what else is everyone playing?

[still locust]

The middle section isn't really full of juicy talents

[tiny stream]

How did they finally implement the nerf? Just 25% thrash nerf on the final number or 25% to the initial value before the 200% buff multiplier?

[crystal lake]

Awesome. I’ll have to look it all up when I get home

[still locust]

(ignore class side if something looks weird, didn't look at it)

This is a mangle+raze version of EC no apex

[proper slate]

The row with reinforced fur has like so many talents I want

[still locust]

There's a few super strong ones that everyone should pick up, the rest are generally weaker than bottom section talents

[fair junco]

in this build how/when are you prioritizing Raze?

[still locust]

Middle section has a lot of talents you can move around as you see fit, in this image specifically you could move either Guardian of Elune OR Ursoc's endurance, or reinforced fur and after the wildfire

[still locust]

When I feel like my stack count of ironfur is safe, I would raze

[crystal lake]

Is the one you linked on of those?

[proper slate]

Do waking nightmare thrashes help reset lunar beam?

[red knoll]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xDA7ZHnMcVKWzNb1?fight=24

[fair junco]

Is Sundering roar dead at this point? I know it was never super optimal, but is it gone now?

[red knoll]

This was the log

[still locust]

Nope, not real thrashes

[still locust]

I would never really recommend it

[red knoll]

Im not good at analyzing logs yet

[still locust]

It's not dead if you like it and want to run it

But if you don't like it (good opinion) you can safely spec out of it

[fair junco]

heard, i know in the meme build it helped

[red knoll]

Wondering if i should be speccing fc in raid now

[still locust]

OH did you mean below VICIOUS brambles?

[red knoll]

Seems like people are on the fence about it for dotc

Yeah

Mb

[still locust]

Yeah that's a huge difference, I thought you meant actual brambles

[red knoll]

Still its never been below my 4th ability before

[elder obsidian]

In no apex no raze you want to maximize lunar beam uptime, roar helps with it

[proper slate]

I'd rather pick something like natural resilience over SR

[crystal lake]

Ideal number of iron fur before you’d raze?

[red knoll]

If you notice anything I can work on lmk, I know a few times i was stopping to interrupt

[still locust]

Depends entirely on level of content you're doing, and how dangerous the physical damage from pack you're fighting is

Can't really give a number like that

[crystal lake]

Ah makes sense

[proper slate]

The lunar beam cd only starts ticking once the current beam ends right... so presumably that's when to SR for two quick thrashes

[red knoll]

You can give a general number for key levels but even that changes depending on the pack

Also can change based on healer

[still locust]

Nope

It starts the moment you press it

[red knoll]

I tend to go lighter on IF if I have a hot healer

[proper slate]

Ah ok I thought I noticed something like that

[red knoll]

But dont often play with rdruid so

[proper slate]

If WN doesn't help reset lunar beam but SR does, I think I'd rather choose SR between the two for nopex noraze

So by skipping WN the only thing you're losing is some dmg?

[red knoll]

Yes

[still locust]

SR feels ass to press though

Like it's just not a fun or good button

[red knoll]

SR offers some defensive value i guess

[proper slate]

Ehhh it's a bit of dmg and CDR for lunar beam

[still locust]

Getting 1 extra thrash (with proc potential) per minute is very low value

[still locust]

And WN is a bit more damage, but no CDR (the CDR isn't needed anyway)

[hazy mural]

make SR give 5 thrashes and then can go up to 15 stacks xD

but then maybe 1.5m cd

[proper slate]

I do hope they replace SR with something that feels better in the rework

[dense latch]

anyone know if the ascendant voidshard changes have taken effect yet?

[proper slate]

What about defensive value between SR and WN?

[red knoll]

I'd probably wait until daily reset to be safe

[still locust]

Minor in favour of SR

But very minor

[red knoll]

Neither offers much defensive value

Tbh

[proper slate]

Is it because WN thrashes don't proc ursocs?

But SR does

[fallen robin]

Half of WN damage is from non Thrash.

It does a little pulse

[still locust]

I'm not gonna lie, nothing specifically changed for the strength of SR or WN. Both aren't strong talents, but they're like the only options left if you really don't want to press maul and apex

So that's what was picked

Not because they're strong, but because of a lack of options

[fallen robin]

What talents are you picking in the middle section that make you want to skip capstone talents?

[proper slate]

Ok... well I'll prefer to take more defensives from the middle of the tree instead of WN but that's just me

[red knoll]

Tbf half our capstones are ass

[fallen robin]

Because on some level you do need to do damage in order to keep aggro.

[red knoll]

I dont think the 3% damage loss from wn will change that much

Tbh

I think it would be fine

[fallen robin]

And while the middle talents are solid, at some point you are picking additional defensive talents that provide less value for your survivability.

[burnt sandal]

He’s just got nothing left to pick up for damage otherwise really tho

1 point apex ain’t gonna do more than WN. Rest of the nodes would be survival talents

[red knoll]

I say try it and see how you feel

[hazy mural]

id keep WN tbh, its like 6pct+ damage without u doing anything differently

[red knoll]

6% on a good day I guess

[hazy mural]

SR damage is like half of that so can be less of a hit if u remove it

[ripe bear]

i dunno if WN is 6% of your damage it sounds like you are doing something wrong, i've never seen it higher than 2-3%

[red knoll]

Wn consistently does less than 6% for me

[hazy mural]

theres 2 parts to it

u gotta add em together

[burnt sandal]

And that’s 6% lol

Yea

[fallen robin]

Do you play a build that prioritizes Thrash over everything else?

[ripe bear]

IMO SR and WN are both traps, taken because they have the word thrash in it. Both talent points are better off spent elsewhere

[red knoll]

I have

[proper slate]

I'm not pushing insanely high keys so losing a touch of damage is no big deal. I'd much rather have extra toughness from natural resilience

[hazy mural]

same, I take it and take both SR and WN

[fallen robin]

There just isn't much useful defensiveness to gain.

[hazy mural]

the nopex razeless gets u lots of points to use

[fallen robin]

At some point if you aren't pushing keys where you need it, you're just adding more overhealing to the log.

[burnt sandal]

This is the way

[red knoll]

No sotf feels wrong

[fallen robin]

If you don't press Mangle it's useless

[red knoll]

You should press mangle

[burnt sandal]

Personally I would swap sundering for it. If you are playing a raze build rage gen from mangle is nice

[fallen robin]

Based on that screenshot it's not happening

[burnt sandal]

I’m just promoting a raze build and variants of it

[proper slate]

Not taking reinvigoration (1 pt) seems crazy
It's extra free heals on yourself when you hit FR

[red knoll]

Reinvig is better than nr

Imo

NR is only for certain bosses

Like the ones Dreamrage listed

[still locust]

Even without raze or maul I would still recommend mangle talents

Mangle is very good

[red knoll]

Yeah

[still locust]

Mangle gives rage

Rage is ironfur

Ironfur is good (up to 6 stacks)

[burnt sandal]

What is this rage you speak of

I thought I just press thrash

[ripe bear]

sotf+moonless night for better ST damage, and actually using mangle in ST and berserk is better imo the extra AoE from SR and WN is basically just pad in AoE pulls anyways and bears have no issues there just hitting thrash on CD + literally any other abilities.

though at the end of the day it most likely doesn't really matter either way because none of those choices will make or brake a key, though i stand by using mangle with sotf for more rage, cause more rage = more ironfur and more FR

[still locust]

Reinvig is good but often overrated

If you have DoC it can be good

[burnt sandal]

Value of reingoration goes way up when you have other FR talents

[still locust]

If you don't, it's just a wasted talent point

[burnt sandal]

But yea 1 point is kinda meh

[red knoll]

Its decent with the druid class tree talent

Forestall

Forestwalk

[still locust]

DG procs that often anyway

[burnt sandal]

Ya I love a good forest walk algathar kite

[fallen robin]

Debate has been had over and over but due to not spending rage on Raze/Maul it tends to look like NoApex No Mangle EC gets the same amount of IF as Apex. So is it necessary? I know that it goes against every traditional Guardian piece of advice.

[hazy mural]

reinv bugs out with DG as it uses up a DG point... even worse, it wont give u the DG buff for that regrowth

its useful if u go DOC, but not for DG

[red knoll]

On bosses youre not keeping uptime if youre not pressing mangle

[still locust]

They could get more IF which is better defensively

[red knoll]

Thats very bad the higher up you go

[still locust]

Rather than a small amount of extra LB uptime

It's not a hard question to answer: Rage is better

[red knoll]

I dont get the lunar beam uptime hype

[still locust]

Same, tbh

[red knoll]

You're gimping your rage and damahe

For an honestly pretty mediocre ability

[still locust]

And even if you add mangle you will still have moments you press MF (if you want to)

[red knoll]

And like

Maybe 5 seconds more

Uptime

[proper slate]

Dafuq it shouldn't use a dream guide ...

[red knoll]

Of that ability

[fallen robin]

Idk. If they're succeeding because of the reduction in mental stack, more power to them.

[still locust]

But it does

[proper slate]

Sadge

[still locust]

Sure but that's not relevant to the discussion of the power of the talents and rotation

[shut jasper]

with how much rage you get aoe I'm not convinced the rage from mangle is better defensively (past the start of the pull to establish a baseline)

[still locust]

It works =/= it's best

[still locust]

Are you staying at 6 stacks of IF permanently?

If the answer is no, mangle is better

[red knoll]

And when youre not in aoe?

Lmao

[ripe bear]

unless you are hitting armor cap, more rage is always more better, defensively

[red knoll]

Half your time in a key is spent in a st situation

[still locust]

People really out here trying their best to avoid pressing mangle huh

[shut jasper]

just because you can get more armor doesn't mean rage is beating the cdr necessarily

[fallen robin]

But if in logs they are not noticeably getting more IF, then it's not better.

[still locust]

It 100% does

It's not even a debate

[burnt sandal]

To not mangle on a ST boss is wild work

[hazy mural]

honestly in practice, I think either works well

[still locust]

Both can work

[burnt sandal]

The work of the devil

[shut jasper]

you 2 also claimed 100% it was always worth to mangle st for damage

[still locust]

Mangle for rage is better if you're not sitting at armor cap

[shut jasper]

when it was categorically false

[lone nacelle]

Guys are we still meta chat

[fallen robin]

If the data is not backing it up doesn't matter what the theory says.

[hazy mural]

tried both several times and honestly dont see much of a difference either way except high LB uptime feels good xD

[shut jasper]

saying "yeah it's 100% this" without giving me proof is absurd

that's why I'm saying "I'm not sure, it might be x instead of y" because I don't have the data

[hazy mural]

yep, Ion should nerf us for the 5th time!

[proper slate]

No

[ripe bear]

ya either works up to a point, but one will be better after that point.

the fact is where that point is, is way past what most people are tanking anyways, like it most likely won't really matter till 15+ key levels which is what .... sub 5% of the population?

[shut jasper]

that's the thing, I'm not sure anyone's mathed the theory

[lone nacelle]

So yes or no

!!

[shut jasper]

maybe gnome has?

[noble ledge]

I've not played yet but I can't imagine us not being meta

[hazy mural]

whats that point? 24 keys? 25?

[lone nacelle]

I mean guardian was absurd last week

[shut jasper]

but otherwise it's people claiming things purely based on their own biases

[ripe bear]

prolly around 15, is when it will start to matter according to my feelycraft

[lone nacelle]

Surely a small nerf won’t make it that much worse

[proper slate]

Isn't brew better? It might depend on group comp

[burnt sandal]

Guardian is the strongest Druid spec for M+ if you wanna bring mark

[hazy mural]

but then how come its working well in 23s?

[burnt sandal]

Feral is solid in specific comps

[lone nacelle]

I am a meta slave tank

So wat tank should I be playing

[hazy mural]

if it dosent work well, would be immediately changed for something better

[burnt sandal]

And resto/boomkin are sorta off meta

[shut jasper]

I think you can't go wrong with either brew or bear

[lone nacelle]

I need real stats not trust me bro science

[burnt sandal]

If you are a meta slave it’s brew/druid but idk how the other changes effected other tanks because I don’t play them

[hazy mural]

but as long as it works then it works... I cant say if it works better or worse than mangle tho

[proper slate]

If there's already a druid in the group, probably brew

[burnt sandal]

Yea what max just said

[hazy mural]

think most healers will turn to MW soon

unless no bl spec

[shut jasper]

you won't have decent data until a couple weeks for now

it's not even been reset on cn

[red knoll]

Whats the obsession with 5 seconds extra lb uptime

Wat

[shut jasper]

anything atm is guess work

[lone nacelle]

O ya

I’ll try it for myself

I’ll just check logs ig xd

[ripe bear]

because there are many other things that matter much more at those key levels. i just said it would start to matter, not that it would make or break a key.

lets be honest, tank rotation most likely will never make or break a key as long as they are hitting 1 or 2 important abilities on CD.

Like with monk, as long as they are hitting Keg, BoF on cd and Purifying right the rest of the rotation doesn't actually matter other than fine tuning and esoterica. The same can be said for P.Warrior as long as they are hitting shield slam and keeping shield block/Ignore Pain up. The list could go on for many tanks i would wager. For druid it's "Did you hit thrash on CD?" the rest of the rotation matters very little compared to many other things in the key.

[burnt sandal]

Checking logs is kinda hard to establish a meta off of

[proper slate]

Does the waking nightmare bear generate rage? Thrash stacks on target?

[shut jasper]

waking nightmare is just damage

[hazy mural]

yep for sure... its kinda what I always say too... being a good tank is better than playing perfectly simmed rotation

[proper slate]

Ok RIP WN for me

[hazy mural]

as long as ur not doing things to make life genuinely harder for ur group, things go well

[burnt sandal]

WN and other thrash talents also create an issue if you have a lot of funnel classes

You are doing kinda paddy damage to non priority shit and stealing the funnel from the homies depending on comp.

[hazy mural]

those funnel specs also attack wrong mobs a lot xD

[burnt sandal]

Well yea people are dumb but I’m speaking in optimal play situations here lol

[hazy mural]

u taunt the evil mob and know they should be ok from being removed from u, and then some random soldier #7 loses aggro

[shut jasper]

the solution just tends to be chain more

but also there's very few true funnel specs atm

[ripe bear]

ya. but i still think there is room to maximize the rotation, and imo, that is using mangle in ST and in incarn for more rage, more rage = more better till armor cap really (for defensives). So while 100% viable i think that sotf and moonless night are better investments, to that specifi end, than SR and WN. Cause SR and WN are just more aoe damage, which while looking great on the meters, isn't really something bear actually needs to time keys.

Where as i think extra rage for IF and FR could make timing keys easier, especially if you are puging where your healer might be not 100% reliable.

[burnt sandal]

I would argue a lot of people look at overall dungeon dps and brybear made a good point in his video if you really care about timing a key you doing 5-10k more on bosses realistically creates more value then having something like WN or SR

[hazy mural]

honestly think theres no difference in em in real play... 1 u ge very slightly more incarn cdr, other u get not insignificantly more LB cdr

[still locust]

It is in fact fairly insignificantly more LB cdr

And you repeating that it's worth chasing doesn't make it true

[shut jasper]

I think the main value of the build is the ability to sustain bigger pulls on average, more so than the overall dps

[hazy mural]

with mangle focus, I get like 40 pct LB uptime or so, with mf focus, its 55pct +

[still locust]

You would never have mangle focus

[hazy mural]

the good bears get close to 65 pct LB uptime

[still locust]

It's always thrash focus

Always

For EC

[outer cave]

On 3rd boss MT do we need to do anything other than try to keep boss on top of adds? In +17 yesterday ppl died by the suck and boss took forever + he kept getting shield

[hazy mural]

mangle vs mf focus...

one u focus on mf and dont mangle, 1 u focus on mangle before mf filler

[burnt sandal]

Shields are cuz idiots didn’t run their debuff in

[shut jasper]

drag the boss to a corner at the start, that helps a little

[still locust]

Doign a 17 without people knowing what to do at all is wild

[burnt sandal]

So you can’t control that too much

[shut jasper]

otherwise that's dps (or heal) skill issue honestly

you could have also been failing the shield but yeah

[outer cave]

For tanks - our job is to try to keep boss on top of add and thats it and whatever about clearing debuffs is their problem right?

[burnt sandal]

You can get the debuff

[ripe bear]

again i'd argue it depends on key level, but lets be honest, for 95% and very likely more like 98% of the population it doesn't really matter. And once you are at the point where it does matter, there are many things that matter much more.

More so though, i think getting in the habbit of not hitting mangle is a bad idea, because while it might not be needed now, i think it will be once they retune bear in some fashion (though i could be completely wrong) i think they are going to kill the no apex build in 12.1 cause they really want everyone to play with their shiny new apex talent toys. I just pray that means a ironfur/maul rework, cause for me personally. I really really hate the dynamic it currently has

[burnt sandal]

So you have to clear your own if that’s the case

[outer cave]

If i get it how do I clear?

[shut jasper]

you also get a debuff to clear a shield as tank

yeah yingas already said

[burnt sandal]

Big arrow points to red angry octopus

[hazy mural]

but I also called it mangle focus cause u go MN and SOTF to focus more on the mangle presses... if ppl dont think of pressing thrash as prio, then not sure what we can tell em xD

[karmic thunder]

Anyone in here have an AA route they like for 18+?

[burnt sandal]

Run into it

[hazy mural]

I replaced my mangle button with mf... now I got 3 mf buttons

[outer cave]

Ok so when I get arrow I go in that direction and touch the red octopus got it ty

[ripe bear]

are there real meaningful choices in AA routing? you kinda just hold W through the dungeon, atleast that is what works for me up to 15s

[hazy mural]

1 is a swipe alt... and other mangle alt, and the other the usual mf button

[ripe bear]

https://tenor.com/view/moonkin-moonfire-balance-druid-world-of-warcraft-gif-15267146

lol

[red knoll]

Saying LB has equivalent value to incarn is insane work

[karmic thunder]

yes, the last set of mobs people do in odd ways

[surreal ridge]

can someon link or post the build we play now after nerf?

[hazy mural]

but my biggest point is just that the only 23s that are done are done with 0 mangle... whether thats the best way to play or not, it just shows its such a nothing burger to talk about to mangle or not to mangle

[burnt sandal]

Things like chaining pulls or having uptime during the vexanus RP cut some time

[outer cave]

I dont think the meta meme build changed? Its the same thing just a bit less damage?

[hazy mural]

for me id rather talk about how we do the dungeons etc, that normally works better for timing keys etc

[karmic thunder]

people also do island after Crawth diff to acount for weird things to do at last set of trash

[red knoll]

Its not a nothing burger lol

Common hfc L

[ripe bear]

i'd argue that is from people who are already doing 23s anyways and are trying the spec based on what they have seen and/or are just taking everything related to thrash and throwing it at the wall not really optimizing it

[novel oar]

does anyone have the link for the reroll calculater where it tells u the best location to use them?

[burnt sandal]

Do you have a mythic gaze

[hazy mural]

main person I know is this Andy guy and hes been bear most of the season

before the changes

[novel oar]

no but i don't raid sooooooooooooooo

[burnt sandal]

Chim groups are like free now

[ripe bear]

ya but before the changes he was running DotC with ravage right? so he could already do 23s, a 23 isn't really a push for him and his group. Or am i completely off base with that

[burnt sandal]

And you are a tank

Spend like an hour and go get yourself some rolls on gaze/weapons

[hazy mural]

23s are so hard 24 is nearly impossible atm

[burnt sandal]

Make sure to spec guardian to avoid the shit ass feral trinket

[hazy mural]

once we get all the upgrades, maybe barely possible

and after .7 changes and everything has settled and ppl gotten more gear from new raid, 24 will be the max

25 will be amazing if someone does it

[hazy mural]

think it was 21s mostly being done before the change, with a 22 done here and there

Gnome and Andy the 2 main bears at those key lvls... maybe Mr Bry too

[ripe bear]

not saying they are not hard by anymeans. Just saying that to do them there are much more meaningful and important things than SR and WN, infact i bet he could have had 2 unpent talentpoints and still timed those 23s with that build just leaving SR and WN untalented. Like .. they did not enable timing that key, they were just what was picked to be used.

ya 21s were being don with apexless by awoo before the change, and i don't think he ran/runs ST or WN, or didn't then.

[surreal ridge]

so this is still the build?

[hazy mural]

dont think awoo did 21 before the change... or at least not as far as I can remember

[hazy mural]

depends how tight the timer was... would be ofc a bad idea to untalent em and not put em somewhere else tbh

[ripe bear]

i could be completely wrong, i don't follow things too closely, i just am addicted to youtube on my second monitor lol and for bear content, pre-thrash buff, awoo was really the only one making any

[hazy mural]

I just like lurking in logs xD

death meters are so fun

[ripe bear]

ya i'm not saying it a good idea, just saying that those 2 talent points, which lets be super generous and say they were 10% overall tank damage, would not have made or broken the key by anymeans.

[hazy mural]

together they like 8 pct or so

[surreal ridge]

did something change about this? after the nerfs or is it same just a little bit less dmg ?

[ripe bear]

ya so 10% is super generous 😛 lol

[hazy mural]

but a lot of ppl collectively crying over like a 10 pct damage nerf xD

like its the end of the world

[ripe bear]

i mean i was suprised they didn't take trash down more honestly, i was expecting a revert to about a 100% buff overall instead of the like 175% buff overall we ended at (for direct damage)

don't get me wrong, i'm glad they used light hands on it, cause it does feel nice. But i also kinda wish that damage was spread a bit more around the kit, i really dislike the whole "one buttone does all the dmg" they have been moving towards the past few expansions for most specs.

[hazy mural]

think its like 125 pct now

according to the boffins

basically took a 75 pct chunk out of the 200

[ripe bear]

increased by 200% then reduced by 25%, it's 10am and i ain't doing math more complicated than 2+2p=4 but my gut tells me it's around a 150-175% overall buff

[hazy mural]

nah its deffo 125 pct buff on thrash from reset now

everything still the same till they reveal their mini rework on apex or more

[surreal ridge]

imagine apex will now copy thrash aswell 😄

[hazy mural]

hey dawg, we heard you like Thrash

[ripe bear]

should be 150% right? (1*2)0.75 should be 1.5, if i am remembering the numbers right 200% buff then 25% nerf.

[outer cave]

Believe so. You can check kira tank or Yoda or dorki on yt for their videos where they show the good talents. There is an option to auto cast regrowth if youre not comfortable doing that + want easier gameplay

[hazy mural]

and less gcds used

[proper slate]

Looks like there are a couple optional points depending on prefs and whether you want a bit more damage or a bit more defense

[peak lagoon]

Most tanks seem the same though bro prot wars most dmg is thunderclap/shield slam brew is keg smash (flurry passive) and breath it’s just blizz philosophy at this point that they want strong aoe threat spam to keep up with the dps i guess wcyd when a robot is coding and writing the whole game

[hazy mural]

#guardian message

going by @quaint pond

[outer cave]

As max degen myself i have not been using hotw, using automatic regrowth, and taking the talent that gives you more healing received and speed after regrowth is cast @surreal ridge im not claiming it is best mathematical talent set but it helps reduce any thought i need to do

[next inlet]

The nerf was on thrash not on the last weeks buff. So down to 125% total buff. Like heals said.

[ripe bear]

even if it was just on last weeks buff of 200% that doesn't math to 125%

[proper slate]

Conventional wisdom would suggest to start with the more defensive options and move to higher damage options only once you're comfortable

[hazy mural]

passive when learning is so op

[next inlet]

I mean if thrash was 100 dmg, it went to 300 dmg, 25% nerf on that is 225 dmg done.

[hazy mural]

can u become my maths teacher plz? xD

Chemistry is overrated now

[next inlet]

😆

[proper slate]

Yea

But passive can be offensive or defensive... passive defense being the safest start

[ripe bear]

(1 (base what thrash did before) x 2 (200% thrash buff) ) 0.75 (25% nerf after the buff) = 1.5 or 150% buff This is what it should be

1 (base) x (2 (thrash buff) x 0.75(thrash nerf)) = 1.75 or 175% buff. This is if the nerf was just on the thrash buff, which with how it was worded would just be really odd and not what they said at all.

how are you getting 125%

[young tulip]

200% is x3

[steel vault]

maths ....

[hazy mural]

100 pct is x2, 200pct x3

[muted pulsar]

200% INCREASE results in 300% damage not 200 lol

as the word increase implies, it's additive

[ripe bear]

well i did say it was too early for math lol

[hazy mural]

always too early for maths tbf

[ripe bear]

https://tenor.com/view/jerry-rick-and-morty-true-gif-18268523

[brave raft]

Anyone know if its worth doing the hc raid to farm shards yet, or has the hotfix not dropped yet?

[muted pulsar]

not yet

[forest flume]

did they do another thrash nerf yet

[steel vault]

did you just write 1x2x.75 = 1.75 ?

[brave raft]

What is the best way to farm the shards now then?

[steel vault]

wait till they hot fix and M10 or heroic raid

[surreal ridge]

isnt it the ritual shit from last patch?

[cloud pebble]

Probably ritual

[steel vault]

yesterday, it was faster for me to run LFR than rituals, not sure if they are changing LFR drop rate or not

[ripe bear]

reinforcing my no math before coffee personal rule.

[forest flume]

weird but ok

[hasty stratus]

Math is the best

[ripe bear]

math is great, just not before coffee

[forest flume]

i dont drink coffee so im not sure

[ripe bear]

good, don't leave more for us, coffee is nasty and gross stay away from it

https://tenor.com/view/hot-coffee-heure-cafe-jaime-le-café-coffee-break-pause-cafe-gif-27441149

[forest flume]

yep is what I do

[hazy mural]

id drink coffee but I like my sleep

[ripe bear]

https://tenor.com/view/glee-brittany-pierce-i-have-pills-for-that-pills-medication-gif-25005373

[solemn pike]

are you guys still playing EF in keys? im considering dropping it for some ST

[rustic kestrel]

brooooooo

[hazy mural]

more work for u mr bugmaster assmangler!

[hazy mural]

no drugs! im drugfree

[rustic kestrel]

its even worse

both modifiers break

[ripe bear]

https://tenor.com/view/bill-hicks-gif-21348785

[rustic kestrel]

the bug list is dusty, but I have added it in

[forest flume]

do you have "no-apex build is still too good" in the list of bugs

[hazy mural]

not sure about the reinvig buff working or not... @torn depot said the DG buff wasnt applied to the regrowth from reinvig... he would have to confirm it also messed with the reinvig buff too

[rustic kestrel]

I just did it

Manual cast regrowth in human form: ~34k
Frenzied regen cast: ~34k
Dream guide cast: ~68k

[hazy mural]

remember when DOC gave all 4 stacks but didnt get removed?

[hazy mural]

ahhh

[waxen bane]

using default raid build, whats the best way to get Ursocs Fury? i miss the tankiness

[rustic kestrel]

hold on

something is fishy

[harsh zenith]

a quick question is gaze bis for m+ atm ?

[rustic kestrel]

I dont think 1 point in reinvig works

[hazy mural]

[rustic kestrel]

lmao

the first point in reinvig doesnt increase healing

and the 2nd one only increases it by 100%

whats happening

can someone else look at this to make sure im not fucking crazy

[hazy mural]

wanna know another bug? its with SR so u wont care

[rustic kestrel]

ill still put it up

[hazy mural]

if u press SR and go past 5 thrash and then shapeshift, it auto goes down to 5 thrash stacks again

[rustic kestrel]

lmao

oh you know what

its not a bug, reinvig says "casts at 100% effectiveness"

[hazy mural]

dunno if it uses up the thrashes like the end of SR tho... just noticed it and played around it but when I lose focus it happens 100 pct of the time I do it

[rustic kestrel]

that just means it casts a regrowth

[hazy mural]

ahhh that makes sense...

its not +100 pct, its just a normal regrowth

[rustic kestrel]

yeah

[hazy mural]

tooltips

[rustic kestrel]

i got confused

so its just the dream guide buff part not working

[hazy mural]

my fav is walk with the ox on brew

baited me so hard

in my head this just doubled the damage... but it technically has an "increased" chance to proc

[forest flume]

walk with me

[hazy mural]

[hazy mural]

STOMP ON MY ENEMIES, DAVE!

[tulip lodge]

super dumb question, now that the meta is to NOT take RAZE, are you guys spending all rage in IF or are balancing between IF and Maul, the same as prior to recent changes, except now its Maul instead of Raze?

ahh i see the pinned message says the guide is utd. disregard the above.

[tawdry heart]

Light Company Guidon or Gloom Spattered Dreadscale paired with Gaze of the Alnseer? 😱

[kind seal]

yes

[amber basin]

I’ve just noticed that they last minute nerfed bear, how bad is it offense and defensive wise?

[tawdry heart]

iirc its about 10´% on the dmg department

[amber basin]

And defense wise?

Neglectable?

[tawdry heart]

no changes as far as i know

[kind seal]

yeah pretty much a non issue

[amber basin]

Yea there’s something with healing on chosen

[mystic ferry]

Hi ! anyone has a heart of the wild moonkin macro pls

[amber basin]

I really cba playing brew again

[kind seal]

from the replies and chats i've seen in here, you just cant face tank everything forever anymore

[amber basin]

Alright that’s fair

[kind seal]

and some jokes about having to finally use FR sometimes

[amber basin]

well I was thinking, I facetanked pretty much everything on 16s and 17s without FR

Might have to press it now

[dense latch]

you press moonkin, then you press hotw, then you press mangle.

hope this helps

[kind seal]

I mean, once you lived the pull its gg. I normally never worried about myself but just would watch my group slowly die off lol

[amber basin]

Hehe yea fair

[kind seal]

I timed my 16WS because I solo'd the boss near the end after everyone died lol

[fair junco]

I use this, it takes 3 button presses but it works!

#showtooltip Heart of the Wild
/cast [nostance:4] Moonkin Form
/cast [stance:4] Heart of the Wild
/cast [nostance:1] Bear Form

How does it work?
first push of the button -> if you are not in moonkin form, you go in moonkin form
second push of the same button (or first when you are in moonkin form) -> you activate heart of the wild/starfall and immediately transform into bear form

[amber basin]

Yea that shit is way too common but I don’t think they fixed that with only 10% nerf on dps

[kind seal]

true

[amber basin]

Hope they just leave it all alone for the rest cuz they are really dropping the ball with guardian this season holyyyyyy

[forest flume]

we need to get nerfed more

[amber basin]

Elaborate

[forest flume]

they haven't fixed anything, 2 button build still way too good for what it is (imo)

[amber basin]

Doesn’t require a nerf, they just fked the spec and don’t know what to do with t

[forest flume]

a build that involves ignoring 1) new apex talents 2) all your damage rage spenders 3) one of your rage generator - shouldn't be the go-to lol

[amber basin]

5 Chinese bears soloing a 20 and we get a nerf few hours later is NO coincidence

[dense latch]

pretty sure they were on NA

[forest flume]

They likely were gathering data from the entire week, a bunch of us had predicted they would do late monday tuning for us

[green kayak]

^

they pretty much were deciding how much to nerf rather than if they would nerf and were just collecting the data

[earnest marsh]

Dreamgrove has been updated but does not mention the tradeoffs between the three mentioned M+ EC builds (Apex, Nopex, Nopex w/ Raze). Is there a resource comparing their tradeoffs?

[vague sage]

You think blizzard works that quickly? The chinese run had nothing to do with nerf

[dense latch]

you're right. bear got nerfed because of our performance on jailer

[rustic kestrel]

no no it 150% did, havent you seen the youtube thumbnails?

[forest flume]

i like to get all my information from youtube, it makes me very knowledgeable on everything

[dense latch]

i strictly get all my information from youtube thumbnails. i don't even watch the videos anymore

[vague sage]

5 BEAR 🤯 INSANE RUN 😱 BLIZZARD IS FURIOUS

[forest flume]

I really hope you only pick information from the thumbnails where people do this dumb face where they look angry / surprised / shocked / happy / confused all at once

[rustic kestrel]

I can actually only read words now if they are in all caps and contain emojis

[dense latch]

i'm also fluent in red circle and arrow pointing

[forest flume]

oh wow that's huge

[rustic kestrel]

its so fuckin big lmao

[hazy mural]

wish I could do my thesis on twitch emotes... like genuinely interesting language xD

[forest flume]

ah it's a sticker lol

[hazy mural]

emotions are the best way to bring ppl in fast tho

[shut jasper]

for a big part of 4 of the most recent 5 past expansions a similar build has existed, while the existence of apex might make them push against it more heavily than before I kinda don't buy it

most versions weren't as silly as the current

[hazy mural]

its like the basest understanding, dont need to be in a different country etc, all countries know what each emotion someone is making is so it makes ppl wannmma click quick... easy cash

[shut jasper]

but some were sillier (old 0 cd thrash during incarn)

[lapis rose]

What's the word on the streets after the nerf? We changing our build or?

[vague sage]

Reroll vdh. They are invincible now. S TIER

[kind seal]

no change

[soft seal]

Nah, build stays for the most part for now

[lapis rose]

No apex talent?

[forest flume]

i keep saying it but I'm fine with such a build existing, but it being as competiive as it is, feels bad specially when bear was the most fun in a loooong time, at midnight launch

[shut jasper]

I do agree it should be slightly weaker

[soft seal]

Nerf was only 25 %

[shut jasper]

though nuking it like some people want? meh

[soft seal]

"Only"

[vague sage]

Its 25% of like 30+%

[rustic kestrel]

well think of ALL of the advantages of not having a rotation

[soft seal]

Even the Blizz patch note stated that they acknowledge the build

[rustic kestrel]

it should be weaker to make up for all the insane calls and information they can now pay attention to

[soft seal]

So they have no plans of ruining it

[lucid arrow]

id rather they dont ruin it so we dont have to go back to 99% brewmaster tanks

[forest flume]

nobody forces you to

[soft seal]

Yeh

[lucid arrow]

to what?

[soft seal]

Play bear

Be the number one bear

PUSH PUSH PUSH

[forest flume]

oh no if they nerf $new_meta_tank I have to go to $old_meta_tank, have to

[lucid arrow]

nobody is forcing me obviously but i dont see why id make it more difficult for me for no reason

tho i was referring to the playrate there and not what i play

[forest flume]

Yeah I re-read your sentence and realized that lol

[hazy mural]

excuse u! it was ONLY 95 pct Brewmaster Tanks

[lucid arrow]

tho im never again playing off meta

[soft seal]

Do other tanks even exist?

[lucid arrow]

im only bear because i fotm rerolled off prot pala and its just so much more chill

[soft seal]

Like warriors?

[hazy mural]

theres always a small resistance... but most high pushers are fotm cause thats just how u get .1 title

[lucid arrow]

even if ur not high pushing it just makes it easier both to play and get invited to keys

[hazy mural]

everything is usually solved and u just follow the blueprints and play well enough

[lucid arrow]

only people it doesnt matter for is those who stop at 3.4k

[soft seal]

I would rather be highest ranked bear than a highest rank player

I don't get this extreme meta slaving

[lucid arrow]

that'd be fine if the rewards were spec based but sadly they're not

[lucid hemlock]

por que no los dos?

😄

[quaint pond]

game's a lot smoother if you meta chase

[midnight flint]

It matters when you want to be able to playkeys other than your own, sadly.

[forest flume]

people go against this saying "But people will just sell boosts and carries! no fair!" as if this wasn'r already the case with current system

[quaint pond]

it's just how the developers make it

[lucid arrow]

pretty much this

it just makes everything easier and smoother

[soft seal]

Maybe for dps. But for tanks, it usually is not that extreme

[quaint pond]

you can of course go against the development direction

[hazy mural]

dont hate the playa, hate the game

[quaint pond]

but then you're just choosing to impose self difficulty and that's not what the game rewards

[lucid arrow]

it defo matters, try queueing up 16-17s as prot pala

[midnight flint]

It is very extreme even on tanks and healers.

Id sayits even more extreme than on dps.

[hazy mural]

I for one did not inv prot palas as healer... but maybe they are not too paper now

[lucid arrow]

if the player is good they'll decline you because they dont want to make it harder than it has to be, and if you get invited probably the player doesnt care which means it'll just be a generally wtvr comp and likely brick the key

[lucid arrow]

they're better now but still bottom of the barrel

[midnight flint]

Because they are bottle neck roles with high impact and the balance is dogshit rn.

[hazy mural]

thats the catch 22

if I get invited as my holy, I get sus of the group

[soft seal]

Fair point, I am kind of still in mind of playing druid

[reef ledge]

anyone got a macro or an addon for the regrowth procs? its giving me a heartattack every time i leave bear form accidentally

[lucid arrow]

i got to resi 16s and noped out of prot pala, im rawdogging hits that would oneshot me without defensives on my bear

[hazy mural]

cause they "shouldnt" be inviting me... yet only they will invite me xD

[forest flume]

at equal rating? I always invite the off-meta player. There's a higher chance they're not dogshit

I learned this during BFA with BM hunters

[lucid arrow]

yes there's a lot of FOTM rerollers who are just really bad, but it depends on the rating

[runic bronze]

With the recent nerfs did the meta Bear Build change anything? Or is it the same talents and now we just need to actually try?

[midnight flint]

Nobody tells you you shouldnt do that. Its usually the "anti meta" people that get super vocal and yell at those who want to be able to just queue and play the game.

[soft seal]

Yeah the feeling of "Okay... What's up with this group"

[hazy mural]

for me always depends on the utility needed too, and how much they can live

[lucid arrow]

having played it id never invite a prot pala

[forest flume]

oh i was talking in general, not just "tanks"

[lucid arrow]

pre-buffs

not sure post buffs but still would be very hesitant

[hazy mural]

some specs that are never picked are made out of paper, and its just a pain to inv em

yh, dps and healers too

like most holy priests generally suck and act like they have no defs

[midnight flint]

They still need to play better than aany other tank spec, so its a naah from me unless i know the guy.

[hazy mural]

they dont even take cheat death yet they die xD

[soft seal]

I do get it. Essentially I became a tank cause the queue for a dps was unBEARable for me

[forest flume]

I plan to gear out my ppal a little bit, unless something changes my bear is dead to me til next patch

[lucid arrow]

mages are infamous for being stripped of defs by blizz

[shut jasper]

I'll be honest I'll take the average fotm bear over the average ppal main

[lucid arrow]

so even if the player is good i dont wanna see him dying to nothing in the key

[forest flume]

brewmaster is zzz, new bear is zzz, that's midnight I guess

[lucid arrow]

ye i agree prot pally was much more fun than bear for me

but the push troubles made it less fun in the overall

just more fun rotation wise

[hazy mural]

midnight is zzz

[forest flume]

I've started doing 12s at 240 weeks ago on my paladin now it's 272, I'm going to try 16s this week likely see what happens

[hazy mural]

except for nameplates and kicks

when u have 20 mobs and t hey all play the movement game with their nameplates

[lucid arrow]

hope its better now with buffs

[forest flume]

Going into a triple pull, put consecration down and watching all the casters come to you because they're silenced, then throw down the hammer 😎

[lucid arrow]

but before at 16s i had to have my eyes glued to my hp bar and the enemy casts

any single tank buster from any npc no def was a death

and hp was just yoyo everywhere

[kind seal]

you'll do just fine

[forest flume]

I ran one key last night, 12 seconds AD felt nice

[lucid arrow]

tbh prot pally had off defensive survivability issues, not in it

[forest flume]

Then again I ran the same key on 19 on bear with the 2 button build and my hp never moved, and I got pissed off and logged off lmao, a me problem 100%

[shut jasper]

s2 tww going into priory as ppal and bdk after bear spoiled me and learning the first mini boss' shield slam is an actual tank buster

[lucid arrow]

so it helped a little but it didnt actually fix their problems

[forest flume]

im not knowledgeable enough on paladin to have an opinion

[hazy mural]

they have DT = COOL

[forest flume]

for the past 3 xpacs i played it as tank because it's fun, i press buttons

[lucid arrow]

its insane how much mental bandwidth i have free now playing bear compared to prot pala when i dont need to be constantly shitting myself

[crystal lake]

updated builds posted in the pins?

[shut jasper]

DT is the singular best button in game

funny noise

[forest flume]

when you see 3 packs of mobs run at you because of DT

joy

[lucid arrow]

sadly i see a lot of troubles balancing prot pally coming up for blizz

[forest flume]

See right now i press buttons and theres beams of light coming frmo my character, going towards all mobs, I don't even know what it is. But it looks nice

[shut jasper]

I think it's apex related

[halcyon jackal]

but DG does save my party time to time 😒

[shut jasper]

what does it do and why? idk

[forest flume]

everytime prot paladin can survive everything, it becomes the top tank, in part because how much they can control a pack with silences

[lucid arrow]

ye thats the thing

and its even worse now with the silence situation

[forest flume]

it does solid damage in aoe too, in ST I'm crying a little bit

[lucid arrow]

so either prot pally is not survivable and worst tank, or survivable and 99% meta tank

only way to be inbetween is if they remove silences

[hazy mural]

yep... its why I dont have reinvig anymore =/

might be time to start lvling my pala

I do miss DT

[grave lodge]

Guys, is it worth it to do hc raids for gear? Kinda new to wow pve, currently ilvl 268 and doing 10+ keys to farm gear. According to bis lists most of our bis pieces are from the raids but you only get hero items in the vault from hc raids .

[lucid arrow]

bro is doing the reverse fotm reroll

[lucid arrow]

yes, for some pieces like gaze

[hazy mural]

I have too much time on my hands and I hate pugging high keys

[lucid arrow]

im pretty sure heroic gaze sims better than myth m+ stuff

but chimaerus is also 'easy' (relatively speaking) to pug mythic

[burnt epoch]

Is bear dead still?

[grave lodge]

Okay, I'll check it out. Thought I might just ask before simming every single slot for raid vs m+ since some of you guys have prob already done it.

[lucid arrow]

you should sim it since its different for everybody

chimaerus has a bunch of good shit so id save 2 rerolls to spend in mythic chimaerus if i were you

dreadscale is good but not that good you can just pick emberwing feather/heart of wind 2nd trink

[grave lodge]

I'm confused anyway since icy veins says puzzle box is the best m+ trinket but it seems kinda hard to practically use it as a tank.

[hazy mural]

too many rexes... me confused

[grave lodge]

Do you roughly know what tank ilvl ppl expect for mythic chimaerus?

[lucid arrow]

it is theoretically speaking the best, if you're able to press it on cd / align with other cds and not grief your key

which is also possible i think yoda runs puzzlebox in 20+ keys as a tank

[quaint pond]

the only thing impractical about it is that you can't move while casting

casting just prevents dodge which isn't a huge deal

[lucid arrow]

275-280, but most important is knowing how to do it and having some kill experience (you need a job to get experience to get a job)

[grave lodge]

Yes and I don't wanna use it at the start of the pull cause the effect will be over once I grouped everything

[lucid arrow]

its a 20s effect

more than enough time to group and still have it

but better yet cast it after grouping

[crystal lake]

so rotation for the no apex build doesnt change at all this week? i missed all of last week haha

[lucid arrow]

nothing changes, nerf too small

[crystal lake]

ok cool so using sundering on CD basically. then just thrash, lunar and keep ironfur up

[daring berry]

Pain in the ass about getting into Myth Chimaerus is unless you have CE, most groups won’t take you, and groups that will take you often are learning groups with mostly people that have not killed it

[vague sage]

Raiding

[daring berry]

Also tanks are a dime a dozen in Myth Chimaerus because every tank wants Gaze and there’s only 2 tanks per raid, so CE only groups never feel tank starved enough to take you without the achievement despite the fact heroic and mythic play no different for tank

[vague sage]

Perfectly happy with my dungeon trinkets

[daring berry]

Same. Heart of the Wind and Emberwing are good enough for me. You don’t need Gaze to do +20s

[brazen tinsel]

try to press sr during lunar

[tropic jolt]

bro are u ranting about not getting invited to CE groups when u dont have CE?

[daring berry]

Yeah, it’s stupid

Catch 22, not like it’s a complex tank fight.

[rustic kestrel]

Idk why you're also complaining about learning groups

when you are literally part of that

[lucid arrow]

it's not an issue just make your own group

[crystal lake]

ok will do

[lucid arrow]

i didnt have ce and never did that boss mythic in my life but i have a few braincells and just watched the vid made my own grp and killed it in one try

[grave lodge]

Alright, thanks. I'll check out a vod from Yoda to see how he uses it. And I'll sim the raid gear. 10+ ilvl away from what I need for mythic raiding anyway and my guild alr has 2 tanks. I could raid hc with them on feral instead I guess.

[lucid arrow]

i saw him use on his prot pally on his vids a while ago not sure if he still does , worth a look

[valid igloo]

how much is % dmg nerf today

[daring berry]

I’m not though, I’ve killed it in heroic. There’s no new myth mechanic for tanks

[lucid arrow]

there is

[rustic kestrel]

You have not killed it in mythic

[lucid arrow]

people stack on you so you're supposed to know where to go without clipping the other guys, and sometimes the tank has to solo soak

and ofc boss and add movement is important in hc too but here much more so

[late thistle]

Problem with learning groups now is they all suck big time. Issue is I'm a returning player and didn't realise mythic pugging was a thing before most had killed.

[lucid arrow]

if you're confident you know what to do, make your own grp

[daring berry]

Separating the adds from the boss is a baseline mechanic. If you’re stacked with the wrong group as a tank, that means the adds are too which mean you’re doing it wrong to begin with

[late thistle]

That would be the play when I get the patience one night

[lucid arrow]

the idea is the baseline mechanic is much more forgiving

you can tank the boss and adds in china and it doesnt matter, in mythic if you tank the adds too close or too far it can be punishing

[forest flume]

literally the solution to everyone saying "I'm not getting invited to X", make your own group for X. 90% of the players are lazy and would rather carry others insteadof having to manage a group

[lucid arrow]

making a grp is literally more time efficient most of the time, ive seen so many grps where its like 'CHECKING ALL' and then they invite so many grey parsers that the grp fails on basic dmg checks

id rather make my own and spend some time making sure its a decent pug than russian roulette

also forgot to mention mythic you have to bait for breath, if the raid lead calls solo soak you have to know that too

i agree its not terribly complicated but from a raid lead perspective id rather just invite someone who's killed it

[unique leaf]

pls help me, def trinket or bonusroll? i have puzzle box hc track and Gaza myt

[lucid arrow]

that def trink is horrible

reroll

[unique leaf]

ok thx

[lucid arrow]

and if you need def trinket spend the reroll on vaelgor for that one

not sure who made that trinket but i think he forgot to put a zero somewhere

[hazy mural]

reroll 100 pct

[hazy mural]

one of the defensive trinkets of all time

[lucid arrow]

maybe if they let me equip 3 of them at the same time

[hazy mural]

id take it for the agi

[torn depot]

basically all regrowths (manual, reinvig, convoke, DG, etc) consume DG stacks, but only DG regrowths get the 200% buff
probably only DG regrowths should be consuming stacks to begin with

[topaz sparrow]

Word is new apex talents will be centered around swipe

[onyx tinsel]

is it only chance u get a 289myth in vault because I definetely ran over 10 +10's last week

[calm vapor]

honestly wouldnt mind that

[topaz sparrow]

289? Highest is 272

[onyx tinsel]

yes but it upgrades to 289?

[zinc hill]

Only trinkets and weapons can go to 298 with the new currency

[onyx tinsel]

like a piece like this

[lucid hemlock]

298! 289 is max myth track

[zinc hill]

Vault M+ gear only comes at 272 baseline

[onyx tinsel]

yes i understand that

[zinc hill]

I am confusion

[onyx tinsel]

i think i figured out my own question dont worry xD

[astral rover]

do we play same build form+?

[hazy mural]

[rustic kestrel]

is the word that you just made it up lmao

[marsh bluff]

I'm using ultradon till I can get tthat

It's a straight 600k health sheidl with 110 verse

[high path]

12 hours ago it was convoke

So yes

[rustic kestrel]

still holding out for convoke in the general tree

[lucid arrow]

new apex talent will give you +1 talent point per apex talent

so you can run the current build and also use apex talents

[grand turret]

i read somewhere that you don't need to wear tier if you run m+ elune build for guardian is this misinformation and i should just get all tier pieces right ?

[lucid arrow]

you don't need 4set no

but you should see if the stats are worth it anyway

[quaint pond]

there's no real reason not to catalyze your highest ilevel anyways

[lucid arrow]

2set you need

[quaint pond]

i guess if you're jsut starting out and you somehow end up with a higher ilevel you'd use that

[lucid arrow]

ig it can end up costing you dmg if the catalyzed versions Sim worse in stat spread

[quaint pond]

it's not really accurate enough to make that distinction for m+ anyways

[merry quest]

Can I still hold on to my hope that parts 2 and 3 of the apex give us the sepulchre barkskin effect?

[high path]

No

F u

It's gonna be toi

[merry quest]

F u buddy

[glass coyote]

Haven’t dabbled with push keys yet this week. I see that the nopex build can stay the same - but curious if anyone feels strongly about swapping any talents around? I’m thinking of going into NR now and also maybe dropping EC? Not sure if worth it though

[topaz arch]

sup, anyone here knows if the drop rate path to void shards is live?

[trim plaza]

Prob tomorrow for eu, this morning for us

Mby, no sure tbh

[rustic kestrel]

As fucking sick as it would be i doubt it will happen

[merry quest]

LET ME BELIEVE YOU FUCK

[quaint pond]

they'll just add aoe dr to it and make it do swipe damage

[high path]

New apex:

• sacrifice all your buttons to nature allowing you to pulse threat every 2 sec around you and gaining 90% dr
• you now pulse every 0.5s/1 sec faster
• every 5 seconds you automatically taunt every enemy around you

That way

Bear is truly the afk spec

[rustic kestrel]

and people would hail it as peak game design

while they watch netflix

[quaint pond]

need auto targetting + wild charging of mobs

[forest flume]

I said the same thing yesterday, I'd love that so much

still linked to incarn in some way, but constantly in-play

watch them do this and also give us the 4-set

by mistake

[steel vault]

UW or NR? 🙂 The new (nerf) changes don't change that .... argument / discussion / decision at all. UW is on all the time, gives some nature resist, no buttons to push. NR benefit is the overhealing shield, largely used on pre-pull. If you're mostly always safe on pulls, less need / use for NR, keep UW, is more consistent DR. I like NR cause I can "feel more confident" in pulls with healers I might outrun.

[pulsar smelt]

hey folks, is there a best dungeon to spam bonus rolls on for quick gearing?

[steel vault]

AA has puzzle box BIS trinket, AND a 2h staff, with some other stuff. So thats a good one to start with, IMO.

Some don't like puzzlebox, the other good tank trinks are in spire.

[pulsar smelt]

seat doesnt look half bad, 4/4 tier is there

[hazy mural]

WS is the best for a fresh char

[pulsar smelt]

but yeah AA makes sense as well

[pulsar smelt]

thanks

[merry quest]

Not incarn - zerk, it works regardless of talenting incarn

[hazy mural]

u get a wep, 2 good trinkets, 3 tier pieces and a pretty good neck

make sure not to loot as dps tho, theres 2 very stinky trinkets for dps there

[olive hare]

WS is goated for a fresh alt. AA is good to get a fast weapon power spike, but imho not worth it since WS has a weapon aswell

[pulsar smelt]

hell ye at least i like WS

[hazy mural]

very fun dungeon

I never hate going there

[forest flume]

of course, as a now non-raider I think the last time I spec'd out of incarn was when "nocarn" build was a thing in DF lol

[pulsar smelt]

im tired of PoS spam on my aug lol

[merry quest]

It would’ve been worth week 1 or 2 of rerolls since double the weapon chance

But now you can fully exhaust the loot pool for a dungeon p much

So guaranteed everything

[hazy mural]

UW is almost useless tbh... when I take it, its only cause Ysera even more useless... but NR is amazing if u play it well

[hazy mural]

Pos Aug jail

[forest flume]

aug deserves to stay in jail

forever

[hazy mural]

get em out

[lucid otter]

What's the verdict after the nerf? Has the build changed?

[hazy mural]

those knockups are so tasty on some adds tho

[fierce saddle]

Question guys? Why puzzle box is S tier? And how/when use it?
Thanks for reply

[forest flume]

so we did a windrunner 19 (I think?) last week, and we had the following happen:

Tank (brewmaster): ring of peace one direction
Healer (Mistweaver) ring of peace towards the other direection
Aug: knock in another direction
Me (feral): typhoon in another

good times

[copper hornet]

So what happened

[forest flume]

on the first pull

mobs eventually died, think we had one death because the discord went laughing mode lol

[lucid arrow]

biggest dmg if used properly, use ASAP to align with pulls you're gonna be doing most dmg on

[forest flume]

ok i was wrong, this happened

[hazy mural]

look at all these aoe cc billionaires shoving their glut of aoes in our face... said the mobs

[hazy mural]

[strange blaze]

I think I know the answer to this is going to be sim it but with 298 trinkets does like a 298 heart of wind or some other m+ passive start passing heroic gaze

[fierce saddle]

Thanks

[daring berry]

Heroic gaze can also be boosted, so presumably it should remain ahead since giving +9 ilvl to a heroic gaze and +9 ilvl to a myth heart of the wind should boost their power level comparably. But yeah, sim it

[cold oracle]

Hey what are you guys running after the thrash nerf? still no apex?

[steel vault]

big damage. BUT. Some don't like the 2sec channel. For me, feather sims almost the same, maybe little higher.

[hazy mural]

I think it's not as good with apex builds tho because of the lack burst damage... the apexless ones prefer passive trinkets

[fierce saddle]

U think we can play how and gaze? Ive the too on mythic.
Or gaze/feather, or gaze and box real usefull?

[lucid arrow]

think it still sims best since apexless is good into big pull burst

[hazy mural]

feather outsimmed box for me

[lucid arrow]

but idk sim knows better

liar

deceiver

[hazy mural]

it did xD

even tho that's also on use

[lucid arrow]

i hope it does bc i hate pressing that yeeyee ahh trinket

[daring berry]

Actually, does sim even work correctly with nopex? Won’t it still try to cast maul/mangle?

[hazy mural]

dungeonslice, both feather and box set to 276

[lucid arrow]

do not question the Sim