guardian

[versed gorge]

Tru and ffxiv is doing weird shit next expack with two different tank roles, literally maintank and offtank classes

[zealous stag]

the point is though, that ironfur allows you to choose how defensive to be at a given time and to sacrifice defensiveness in favour of damage. The key is getting a balance and living

Thats literally a lot of the flavour behind the spex

I didnt like thorns of iron spam either

give me choice, and make my choices matter

[quaint pond]

the real problem is the dev making it possible for you to completely ignore one spender entirely

[zealous stag]

exactly

[bright wyvern]

Definitely

[zealous stag]

I didnt like it with thorns of iron either, as i said

i WANT to press maul/raze

[violet holly]

maybe the community(or some of it) was too used to the toi spam and it left a weird impression on how guardian should work

[quaint pond]

altho i guess in light of reality that does make removing IF stacking a legitimate solution

[zealous stag]

ugh, i hated it. My hands hurt after like 2 dungeons playing that shit

[quaint pond]

since ultimately you have to fit to your development capabilities

[bright wyvern]

Also, before ToI, we didn't have Raze and no one pressed maul even though it was a good button (SL, BfA)

[violet holly]

this is the fundamental issue

[bright wyvern]

So this perception goes back super far

[quaint pond]

theory aside if your dev can't come up with solutions that work with a dual spender system then you gotta remove the dual spender

[still locust]

Toi wasn't the culprit, it started in either SL or earlier with thrash spam

[violet holly]

it was in a weird state for a long time, raze and maul

[violet holly]

yeah it was not the only culprit id say, the whole tree was weird, like raze was a capstone etc

ptsd

[zealous stag]

it was a symptom yes, of bad design

[bright wyvern]

Also I miss ripweaving in raid man

[zealous stag]

there was more wrong with the spec prior

[zealous stag]

SAME

[violet holly]

imagine feral frenzy + rip doing big dam

[still locust]

Which is why I'm happy that they're iterating actively on bear again

[bright wyvern]

Remove red moon bring ripweaving back

[zealous stag]

My thought exactly, once again. I dont want to see them regress because people are scared of a higher skill ceiling

[forest flume]

it could be worse, we could be like those dumb bears in den of nalorak and have a casting time on Pulverize, or those ones from Brackenhide Hollow and have a cast time on Maul

[violet holly]

winding up a huge maul

[jade sundial]

i just think its funny seeing these two posts one after the other

[violet holly]

we all did

timeline went as expected

ss in discord (multiple times) -> reddit post -> youtuber video -> wowhead post -> nerf post

[jade sundial]

lol exactly

[bright wyvern]

The pipeline persists

[forest flume]

the more posts about it the happier I was, because it meant nerfs were happening 100%

[modest coyote]

Fun detected

[zealous stag]

Like i havent even mained bear this season, but i liked the state it was in prior to the huge nerf. Some of it was warranted, but not all i feel.
Even as a feral main, it was still sad to see the spec get effectively lobotomized

[forest flume]

nothing was fun about it lol

[rustic kestrel]

when people say fun detected about something that is clearly broken as fuck

I just imagine they smell

[modest coyote]

That's because you were beat as a child

and your father didn't love you enough

[bright wyvern]

Aside from being broken, it's not even fun

[rustic kestrel]

god my childhood was so good

[bright wyvern]

Playstyle is dogwater

[forest flume]

Growing up in the 90s was bis

[oblique moat]

take me back....

[forest flume]

there was no "No-apex" builds back then

[rustic kestrel]

cheat code, other than all of the financial crisis

[rugged minnow]

Even better, there was no apex at all

[forest flume]

Parents forcing us to go outside on sunny days, so we'd play N64 from outside close to the window

good times

[oblique moat]

LMAO

[outer cave]

Overall analysis of bear nerfs?

[still locust]

7-10% overall key damage nerf, EF nerf minor-to-irrelevant

[bright wyvern]

67

[torpid yoke]

It's wild to me that Thorns of Iron isn't universally loved as a talent

[torpid yoke]

What's EF

[rustic kestrel]

Its wild that people like to make meaningful choices in a video game?

[forest flume]

You like pressing IF 40 times a minute?

[bright wyvern]

Elune's Favoured

Healing arcane damage

[outer cave]

Ohh.. even 10% overall bear will still be the highest damage

[forest flume]

For a while the best way to play bear in raids / single target was to keybind ironfur to mousewheel

[still locust]

Probably

[torpid yoke]

Ty ty

[zealous stag]

Its death is a welcome adjustment

[torpid yoke]

I mean, macro it in and GG

[still locust]

I'm going on a trip, please hold down the fort and try not to set things on fire

[modest coyote]

If he can't press ravage he isn't having fun, it's very gop

[forest flume]

yeah ok, good talk

[rustic kestrel]

enjoy your trip

[quaint pond]

wow players like easy

can't be that surprising

[forest flume]

[torpid yoke]

I definitely like simple classes. Especially as a tank

[forest flume]

DH server tag, makes sense

[zealous stag]

Theres space FOR them, but they should not be as competitive as something with a higher skill ceiling

[forest flume]

havoc enjoyer?

[torpid yoke]

I mean, Legion Havoc was the best Havoc of all time

[zealous stag]

something thats more complex SHOULD be better

[bright wyvern]

Literally the only good thing about bear in TWW was that shotcalling in keys was easy

[quaint pond]

the vast majority of ppl in these discords are just looking for cookie cutter builds & specs so they don't need to think further

all you guys yapping for complexity & gameplay are the vast minority

[forest flume]

Specially in season 1 in Grim Batol, shot calling was very easy while staring at the "Release spirit" button

[torpid yoke]

I mean, I've played the game since TBC. This desire for overwhelming complexity is beyond strange to me

[bright wyvern]

[forest flume]

pressing 1 extra button isn't "complexity"

[rustic kestrel]

I dont think making a choice every 10s is necessarily complexity

[zealous stag]

Good game design has the option for both i feel

[red knoll]

🤡 ass comment ngl

[quaint pond]

sure ideally but given a choice it's better to go for the easy audience

[red knoll]

No

Its not lol

[rustic kestrel]

I just wonder where is the bottom line for simplicity? People are already okay with 2 buttons, how much further will people go? Should we simplify the game so you click and your character walks into a pack and fully does the rotation while you watch?

[quaint pond]

and that's clearly how wow has been for decades

[forest flume]

the easy audience stops playing after a month

or after a patch

[red knoll]

The easy audience does not have longevity

[quaint pond]

as long as they're subbed

[torpid yoke]

Its not about pressing buttons. Its about managing defensive while also pre-planning next pulls while also dissecting which people have CDs/defens for a big pull while dodging shit and managing interrupts and stops and oh now I have rage so let me figure out which of my 4 options to use and yadda yadda

[oblique moat]

wtf is gop in this context

[quaint pond]

they don't have to play every day

[red knoll]

Any answer is clown so

[torpid yoke]

The rotation aspect being easy isn't a bad thing

[quaint pond]

you guys logging in every day aren't any more valuable than some guy one buttons a key every 2 weeks

[violet holly]

90% of ppl that play tank dont do either

[zealous stag]

you make it seem like that math gif. It's honestly not that big

https://tenor.com/view/bookio-gif-13932157847762104386

[modest coyote]

So antisemitic of you, let the kids have fun, it wasn't like people couldn't run a real build with the apex if they wanted. For years people have played non meta specs

[red knoll]

Wat

[torpid yoke]

It kinda is with some classes. Bear Druid not being complex isn't a crazy idea

[modest coyote]

welcome to 2026

[grave vapor]

I'm predicting that by next expansion we see a console port of wow

[red knoll]

Why bother running the real build when its 90% less effort to play the auto pilot

[bright wyvern]

This isn't about being or not being meta lol

[red knoll]

Its about skill expression

And value of effort

[modest coyote]

it's more fun right? Isn't that the case

[red knoll]

No

Not for a lot of people

[zealous stag]

Fun is subjective

[red knoll]

Its not fun to see your spec turned into a meme

[modest coyote]

I agree, being able to find tanks cause people want something to do on alts is a plus

[red knoll]

Just because fotm rerollers want a fucking 1 button spec

[torpid yoke]

I mean, it's also not fun to see your spec need a fucking spreadsheet for every situation

[forest flume]

I bet some of these people would find hunting in the wild more fun if someone just brought them dead animals in their trucks instead of hunting themselves

"it's less complex"

[red knoll]

You dont need a spreadsheet youre just bad

[torpid yoke]

We were talking about Havoc, Havoc has a 20 button opener. Thats kinda ridiculous

[zealous stag]

Thats nothing. Try ffxiv lol

[sick lynx]

My bear thrashes. My bear go brrr. My bear doesn't fall over. Just about all the expression I need, or will expect from a bear over the last 10+ years of wow 🙂

[forest flume]

hopefully wow copies nothing from ffxiv because that would mean the game has turned to shit

[oblique moat]

they already took housing smile

[forest flume]

everyone on a 2min cd timing xd

[forest flume]

And made it thousand times better

[zealous stag]

I dont want them to be clones of each other. I play both, and theres a reason i stick with wow

[bright wyvern]

I love waiting one eternity for my gcd to be done wdym

[oblique moat]

but copying anything from it makes the game bad?

[grave vapor]

Bring back BfA black beams of death

[red knoll]

That hasn't been bears design since cata stop being dumb

[forest flume]

The one thing xiv had over wow was story. Then dawntrail happened

[zealous stag]

Thats changing again. Jobs are getting changed quite significantly

[forest flume]

you got me

[oblique moat]

https://tenor.com/view/waltergotme-gif-18867690

[torpid yoke]

This

[forest flume]

Yeah I saw the changes about Reborn (Legacy) and Evolved (I think?) jobs

[torpid yoke]

Lol really? Did you play Legion?

[red knoll]

Shockingly you could always play badly, stop trying to make the 1 button no effort build the one that performs the best

[quaint pond]

you're just fighting a losing game setting yourself up for disappointment if you expect wow to reflect some kind of skill expression where the more difficulty option is more rewarding

[sick lynx]

I guess I gotta start using a /s for some folks. But you're very hostile. Relax a bit maybe?

[zealous stag]

no, absolutely not. Thats jumping to an extreme conclusion based on a single statement. Inspiration, and seeing what players like is always good, but sacrificing identity to be like something else IS objectively bad

[quaint pond]

gonna be raging all the time vs chill playing

seems an awful way to have fun

[red knoll]

You say that but people actually come in here with awful takes about bear

[torpid yoke]

Bro, it's kinda weird how personal you're taking this. Step away for a minute because it's cringe now

[hushed sonnet]

Shred at the centre of attention again, colour me shocked 😂

[forest flume]

To be fair what I meant was copying the gameplay / combat mechanics

[red knoll]

Play victim now

Cool

[hushed sonnet]

You say this to everyone hahaha

Hilarious

[forest flume]

For example I used to enjoy playing Black Mage in Shadowbringers and Endwalker, they made it so simple now it feels like I'm playing a BM hunter throwing fire IV at mobs

[torpid yoke]

https://tenor.com/view/you-mad-mad-you-mad-bro-taunting-taunt-gif-7619222

[oblique moat]

i was just being a little shit

[zealous stag]

ah, fair. Well then, as you were 😛

[oblique moat]

https://cdn.7tv.app/emote/01HHWRC5P00007DEX7DTA091JF/4x.webp

[modest juniper]

I’m new to the discord, and to bear. I really just leveled one up over the weekend because I heard about the fun laser bear build.

I expected it to get nerfed this week, I’m fine with it. It was busted.

Has anyone done the math on how big the nerf is to healing? Between the thrash nerf and the arcane heal nerf?

[sick lynx]

Aaanywho. Purely out of interest more than anything else. Did anyone run some sims to see how much it actually nerfed us by? I know first guesses were looking just under 10% but anyone get a more definitive number?

[violet holly]

its still good, you can play it just fine

[torpid yoke]

You can still play it, it's still top tier good

[violet holly]

brought it down a little but bear stocks are still very high

[frosty karma]

Sorry if this is a silly question. Im EU so dont have the changes yet. Should I use wowhead or is there somewhere else I could potentially see what talents I should run with? Is thrash still bis, or is it just equal to raze or is it a bit worse? Im only aiminh for 3.4k ish so feel free to tell me I should stick to any one haha

[modest juniper]

I’m raiding on Blood, our raid needs the grips. But this will be fun for keys.

Thanks all 😊

[zealous stag]

pins

The pin is updated regularly

[violet holly]

you can run the same build as before, nothing major, no need to change talents

[frosty karma]

Sorry was on mobile ill check it. Thanks!

[zealous stag]

You're all good. Not every spec/discord has an active pin system

but always a good place to start

[red knoll]

Kinda wild to tell people theyre not allowed to want skill expression ngl

Skill expression exists in every other spec

Its extremely diminished in bear rn

[torpid yoke]

I would agree with rotational skill expression, yes. The simple solution is to just adjust both specs so that both options are as close to equal in viability

[zealous stag]

No

because then the simpler one will always be played

[red knoll]

Simpler one should never be the best

Or even on par

Thats awful game design

[zealous stag]

given the choice between two competing skill trees, the one thats the path of least resistence will always be chosen

complexity SHOULD be more rewarding

Otherwise difficulty is artificial

[olive hare]

I'm glad Blizz grew out of that skillor mentality and doesnt balance specs around their complexity anymore.

[zealous stag]

Im not saying that something thats easier has to be dogshit

[red knoll]

Yeah externally they shouldn't be balanced that way, but internally each spec should reward skill expression

[zealous stag]

but it shouldnt be competitive

[idle spindle]

Lazy blizz will always be lazy

[red knoll]

The there's a different between external balancing and internal balancing

[idle spindle]

“We got plans to fix it” just not right now

Just make tank tankier that’s it

[late thistle]

Apex talent now buffs thrash by 100%, then everyone's happy people can play no brain build and also take apex.

[zealous stag]

again, no. Its a balance

[olive hare]

Lets not pretend apex is rocket science in comparison to no apex, just because you press mangle at a slightly higher priority and maintain a fur stack while sending razes.

[zealous stag]

You're literally missing the point

[red knoll]

No one is saying complexity requires a PhD

[idle spindle]

Balance of what?

[bright wyvern]

Shred and everyone advocating for more complexity agrees with this btw

[red knoll]

Thats completely missing the point

[hidden crescent]

Nature

[bright wyvern]

We know it's not actually complex

But people REALLY want to just press 2 buttons

[dense latch]

i want mecha-bear. can i have mecha-bear?

[bright wyvern]

And we don't want that to be our spec identity

[forest flume]

I'm sad, in D4 they added a subskill for Pulverize and its called "Mega Bear Punch". But it sucks

rip.

[violet holly]

foreshadowing

[zealous stag]

Making something tankier doesnt mean making it better. The game is balanced around tanks doing damage, both to maintain threat and, while damage is lower than that of a dps, doing damage while also surviving is the cornerstone of tanking too

[red knoll]

If blizzard ever stops being cowards and gives us real skins for forms

[oblique moat]

wish granted but it's a mechagnome racial form

[brave cedar]

do you just default moonfire instead of swipe if everything is on cd, even without gg proc?

[red knoll]

Well

You never swipe

[violet holly]

sold in the store for 20 bucks each

[red knoll]

So

[violet holly]

no swipe

[dense latch]

like mechagnomes can be druids or they just have a cosmetic animal form now?

[oblique moat]

no i'm just making a joke sorry

like a monkeys paw thing

[brave cedar]

okay thank you

[red knoll]

Honestly i would take it if it meant druid having more available forms that werent locked behind grinds /fomo

[dense latch]

answer the question skye

[grave vapor]

New apex talent swipe triggers iron fur

[red knoll]

Especially since you can buy it with gold

[oblique moat]

[frozen depot]

New apex talent will buff swipe by 1000%

[brave cedar]

was just wondering because the wowhead guide says "swipe if nothing else to press"

[zealous stag]

moonfire with EC is that something else

[violet holly]

its just so if someone asks "what about swipe?" but there's always something better to press

[red knoll]

You should replace that with moonfire

Not swipe

[dense latch]

next patch they'll change druids so we have to go catform to savage roar during our rotation.

[brave cedar]

ok thank you again

[frozen depot]

It would be funny that if a bear died they would automatically die in moonkin form

[violet holly]

swipe dmg increased by 200%, swipe auto triggers every 3s

lmao

[dense latch]

patch 12.1 - wrath will now be part of guardian druid rotation. not castable in bear form.

[stoic dagger]

Hey guys can u explain me - thrash is arcane dmg right?

[idle spindle]

Couldnt they just make dmg generate more threat? IMO tanking shouldn’t be about doing the most dmg but im new to tanking so i know nothing

[stoic dagger]

then why we pick circle of the wild instead of circle of heavens?

[quaint pond]

there's a pin for it

[zealous stag]

Its not about doing the most damage, but people wont play tank if they feel like they cant contribute in some way

we're already in a tank shortage

[quaint pond]

the essentially blizz would rather make tooltips simple and wrong than complex and correct

[idle spindle]

They got Druid forms for $20??

[zealous stag]

Tanks also have an option to parse

[fierce apex]

Those nerfs don’t seem to bad

[zealous stag]

and part of the fun is minmaxxing damage

[idle spindle]

Lol ur contributing by tanking hence the class TANK

[dense latch]

#guardian message

[zealous stag]

Missing the point, but okay

[stoic dagger]

thanks

got it

[idle spindle]

I see the point I’m just disagreeing

[dense latch]

god help me, don't give them ideas you bastard. i'm already poor

[fallow totem]

probably been posted but eh. damn accurate 😄

[zealous stag]

and youre allowed to be wrong

[bright wyvern]

Tanking in modern wow hasn't been about just "being tanky" for a very long time now though

Your damage and utility matters

[trim plaza]

Its all about dmg and utility pretty much

These days

[idle spindle]

Might as well pack 5 bears in +20 like some are doing lol

[idle spindle]

Meh

[bright wyvern]

Happens every season

Blizz can easily fix this by limiting the amount of tanks allowed in a key to 1

[trim plaza]

Sure tank being tanky is first step, but if u dont bring any dmg or utilitt for group, u are left to dust

[zealous stag]

THATS where bear also struggles, not having hard cc

[idle spindle]

Why not just play DPS at that point lol

[fallow totem]

they could but they wont since its hardly an issue

[dense latch]

anyone know what the season m+ 0.1% title is going to be?

not the rating, the actual title

[zealous stag]

Again, missing the point

[red knoll]

Umbral hero

[idle spindle]

Pls elaborate

[bright wyvern]

I know, I really don't care what people do lmao, I'm just saying it's not an argument against "tanks shouldn't do relevant damage"

[red knoll]

Likely

[trim plaza]

I mean imagine if they wouldnt give our only niche to rdruids/boomkin (stamp roar)

[bright wyvern]

People did Mythic nyalotha with 19 BDKs and a Mage

People meme

So what

[red knoll]

URSOLS vortex

[fallow totem]

we also had 1bdk 4warlocks during legion. etc

[trim plaza]

Ye that too

[zealous stag]

Theyre literally saying that tanking is about tankiness, damage, and utility. Tanks SHOULD inherently do two of three of those better than dps

[red knoll]

Yeah that was also an issue

Two things can be bad

[trim plaza]

And prot pala healer so ye

[zealous stag]

dps, as a tank is also important; youre not playing a tank to be competitive, but you ARE still playing to do damage, otherwise youre a bad tank

[trim plaza]

And if tanks are not doing any dmg, u will find out we dont have any tanks at that point in que

[zealous stag]

to iterate on my other point, exactly

[idle spindle]

So doing all the mechanics right and not dying and interrupting and all that but if ur dmg is low ur a bad tank?

[fallow totem]

just give all tanks twilight devastation. ez

[violet holly]

yes

short answer

[zealous stag]

not "BAD" but definitely not good

[violet holly]

ur a regular tank

[sweet gorge]

is there a sect of the tanking community that doesn't want to do as much damage as they can be?

[quaint pond]

tbf that's prolly the majority

[violet holly]

but a good tank also knows how to optimize every aspect of its kit

[sweet gorge]

is it? that's a shame

[violet holly]

where that copypasta

[sweet gorge]

I love trying to crank as hard as I can

the more nervous I make DPS the better

[quaint pond]

ppl just wanna chill man

[zealous stag]

exactly

[quaint pond]

same with healers

[zealous stag]

That first pull in algethar had me cackling the first time i did it and outdpsed dps

[fallow totem]

theres tanks that want to be tanking and just be the wall they dont care about dps. and then theres tanks who wants to DPS the living shit out of stuff while being the wall

[quaint pond]

lots of player like to heal cuz they can be passive often and just need to react during 'harder' times

[zealous stag]

its balancing between the two thats the key

[sweet gorge]

I love healing. It's my preferred role. My team just needed a tank and not another healer. Heh.

[fallow totem]

i understand both.

[sweet gorge]

I get wanting to just chill, though

[quaint pond]

the real problem is the current game model requiring a tank and healer since that actively prevents ppl from playing

and as long as they're not going to re-evaluate that then you kind of need to push w/e gets more tanks signing up

[fallow totem]

yeah and people who are being absolute assholes to players.

[teal nebula]

Random question but does anyone know what the fastest option for doing these is?

I need 2 more vault slots on my guardian druid so Im just gonna do 4 of these whatever is fastest

[violet holly]

tier 1 delve

spam t1 fill vault get bonus roll token

its like 2 mins each run

[oblique moat]

it's funny that tooltip says nothing about what level delves get you what tier

oh.

nvm goodbye

[teal nebula]

Cheers, any delve which is fastest?

Guardian or feral?

[violet holly]

guardian always

[oblique moat]

probably grudgepit

[teal nebula]

Dont care about tier as Ill just get bonus roll

[fallow totem]

resto bear weaving ofc

[violet holly]

and any delve tbh

like tier 1 its giga fast giga easy

[teal nebula]

Just asking cuz I need to do 8 on my aug (Ill go devo obvs) too after

Ill try grudge tho ty

[oblique moat]

yeah benefit of that one is you don't have to walk as much

[violet holly]

usually grudge pit you can pull everything like 3 times and its over, and its just a small arena

[grave vapor]

Set Valeera as tank and she will pull the whole GP for you

Does a circle run

[desert pecan]

We still top after nerd?

Neef

Nerf

[vague sage]

Well done

[plush fern]

Hows Seat for using bonus roll for a fresh character? This combined with doing dreamrift. Are the ring set with avoidance worth it?

[vague sage]

Ring set isnt worth looking at. From what i remember, seat pool is pretty big, so just check that you actually want most of it

[simple ledge]

i like seat, becouse you can take almost every gear spot from there

pretty nice for fresh alt

[plush fern]

ty!

[zealous nacelle]

gguys is it time yet

[zealous nacelle]

FR.

[vague sage]

Wait, does seat have a weapon? You probably want to be going for that first

[vapid heart]

WS too, and two useful trinkets.

[vapid heart]

Crafted will have nillhamer Myth 298

So its not really needed

[zealous nacelle]

so I can send my crafted wep to 298 ye?

[vague sage]

Crafted is still lower than dropped, from what i understand

[forest flume]

which is what made Midnight bear fun, the more damage you did the more "wall" you were

[azure ibex]

no

Crafted will be 295

[zealous nacelle]

ok

[vapid heart]

Thats confirmed?

[plush fern]

im running dreamrift so I can get trinket/weapon from there and the rest pieces from seat

[azure ibex]

From what I've seen yeah, the ascendant core essentially adds 10 ilvls to the targeted item

So it will still sit at myth > crafted > hero

[vapid heart]

But has blizz stated? Cus so far theres only 2 - Myth Ascended and Hero Ascended.

Do we have official comm from blizz on that?

[marsh bluff]

Is that for every gear or just weapon?

[azure ibex]

We dont have official comm that crafted will go up to 298

We'll know in half an hour though

[green kayak]

ptr people said it goes to 295 crafted no?

[vapid heart]

Exactly, ill be seen.

[azure ibex]

But yeah ptr had it at 295 iirc

[vapid heart]

Yup, but we need to wait for live to be sure

Like, its not unusual from blizz to change it

[azure ibex]

The only offical comms from blizz on this system is:
Following the Voidforge's construction, Decimus will ask players to assist him in crafting the Ascendant Nilhammer, a powerful tool capable of manipulating Ascendant Voidcores to empower worthy equipment. Upon completing this warband-wide journey, players may begin acquiring Ascendant Voidcores from Midnight Season 1 endgame content including raids, Mythic+ dungeons, Bountiful Delves, and Nightmare difficulty Prey Hunts.
Consuming an Ascendant Voidcore infuses an eligible weapon or trinket with additional power to increase its item level. Only fully upgraded Hero, Myth and maximum quality Radiance Crafted weapons and trinkets are eligible to become Ascendant Voidforged.

[north zealot]

I am not great iwth theorycrafting... Still no apex thrash spam, no apex with raze or apex with raze?

[azure ibex]

It would be kinda crazy for them to switch it up in the twilight hour and let crafted be the same as myth for the first time but hey, its blizz

[quaint pond]

looks like they nerfed it correctly

[violet holly]

uh oh

[west wedge]

Does anyone know how hard the 25% direct damage nerf to Thrash is hitting?

[quaint pond]

open your log, expand thrash, remove 25% from the direct thrash part

[vapid heart]

6-8% overall

Which is fair, at least

[north zealot]

Calculating dps loss is fine... But the self sustain takes a hit too, and the question is more "whichof the 3 builds is not stronger in keys" than "how much dps do I lose from these nerfs"

[west wedge]

Okay, thanks, buddy

[quaint pond]

well nobody's gonna know that now, ppl will just have to run keys

you'll lose some self healing but how much'll depend on what's not covered by overhealing

[marsh bluff]

Servers up?

[vapid heart]

Top tier tanks were saying its negligible the changes, bear still as strong - just a little more in line

Its mostly a hit on overhealing, but its not even halve a key worth of nerfs

[torpid yoke]

Servers are up

[north zealot]

Would make sense I guess, unless there is some Blizzard manifest saying bears cant be top...

[zealous stag]

Wasnt EC's bear healing mostly via frenzied anyway?

[quaint pond]

it's more how much hps are you losing at dangerous times instead of overall loss

[zealous stag]

EF just added a little extra

[west wedge]

Does that mean they won't be taking Apex talents yet?

[vapid heart]

You can take what you want, but Apexless seems like the best build still

Someone might theorycraft something different

Bear was a good 40% above overall the other tanks

Ppl were doing 1m on large packs

Shit was meant to be nerfed

[quaint pond]

lower EF + lower shield could mean some instances where you lived previous, you'll now die but that's case by case and not something you can generalize and also doesn't account for changing healer behavior

[elder obsidian]

apex bear was doing 2m in AA before no apex buff

[violet holly]

tldr if you die now its because of the nerf, 100%

you can write that in the party chat after

[torpid yoke]

Facts

[violet holly]

ez excuse

[elder obsidian]

nerf to healing is like 20% overall?

[violet holly]

type something like "li-re-ra-ly unplayable now"

[zealous nacelle]

My other ring not from nexus has avoidance tho

[zealous stag]

nowhere near i'd say

[elder obsidian]

more or less?

[zealous stag]

guardian healing isnt purely tied to EF

[quaint pond]

less you never lose the full raw healing

[zealous stag]

likely quite a bit less

[violet holly]

most of the healing was already overheal so the impact is not that big

[forest flume]

the biggest hit likely going to be UF absorbs

other than that just press buttons

[elder obsidian]

I'm not talking about EF only, but about Ursoc's Fury

[onyx cipher]

question with the changes if our stat prio is the same as on old build in m+ or different? my friend told me to go for haste+vers but murlok.io shows different stat prio. i am mostly asking so i can select good pick form the vault def going for shoulders i have crit+mastery or vers+mastery or catalyse to the tierset whats my best go?

[zealous stag]

Still likely not huge

[quaint pond]

there'll be rare cases prolly

like the heal absorb in MT if you lived with 10k life you might die now in that specific case

[elder obsidian]

25% of UF, 40% of EF
and this healing drops to 40k

20%

[fluid gust]

all Stats are fine - best bet is to sim
Itemlevel > all solang it is a mainstat item

[quaint pond]

no you need to accoutn for overheals

you're not losing 40% of effective EF healing

[zealous stag]

again, thats not indicitive of overall, you're looking at it in a vacuum

[versed jacinth]

If only doing M+ should we target the weapon from AA or the one from caverns?

[zealous stag]

Any myth weapon is a gain

[bright wyvern]

Simple answer is to sim it

See which one gives the biggest dps upgrade on myth track

[zealous stag]

(if you dont have one prior that is)

[tired crow]

on work PC now so cant sim, but im reading that solarflare is our BIS trinket and not gaze? just got it as option in vault. which would you use?

[rustic kestrel]

I would use what the sim tells me

[forest flume]

on work pc, you can open vault but can't sim, sus

[rustic kestrel]

not the answer you want, but its the answer you need

[tired crow]

haha cant install addons without IT allowing me to 😛

[olive hare]

It doesnt. You should read logs carefully.

Did you notice that EF has a shitton of overhealing?

[onyx cipher]

my gear is all over the place so sims gonna not make sense for the long term upgrade and will be upgrade only for this moment . I still have several champion and even veteran items.
Yes i understand ilvl part but i have 2 the same ilvl options in the vault right now as i sent in the SS. So i wanted a general stat prio and i would do min maxing later once i replace champion pieces by adjusting my crafted pieces/enchants/rings etc.
I wanna know a general idea for what kind of stats should i go for since the build changed recently

[olive hare]

Selfsustain wise the tuning will just boil down to 1) less ursoc healing 2) hell a lot more effective EF healing

[rustic kestrel]

unfortunately we just cant give an answer

today gaze could be better, then you switch a piece of gear tomorrow, and solar flare could be better

Gaze is very strong even at heroic

so they are probably close

[zealous stag]

Haste is a safe bet as bear, given i reduces the cds of your most vital abilities. The rest have values in of themselves

[quaint pond]

just vibe out stats if you can't decide/sim

[zealous stag]

I play DOTC so im partial to haste/mastery

[quaint pond]

ya ppl like haste faster gcd = fun

even if it's not better it's not enoug hto matter

if you play an offspec you can also jsut gear for that offspec

[vagrant kestrel]

Pretty new to tanking do I just sim for dmg?

[bright wyvern]

General rule of thumb is ilvl > everything and secondary stats are, well, secondary. If you're planning on replacing a lot of items this reset, I'd consider not picking vault atm until you've got more Hero/Myth pieces from gearing and/or bonus rolls

[zealous stag]

I main feral, so im mastery/crit/haste spread. havent had an issue

[elder obsidian]

put that puzzlebox in bag

[zealous stag]

PB has its uses, especially in raid

[elder obsidian]

guy has 256 ilvl in raid vault

[zealous stag]

its honestly fine to use, sobeing it doesnt put you in danger

[quaint flume]

Rip guardian?

[bright wyvern]

No

[vagrant kestrel]

is the prism good?

[terse raptor]

depends on how high you push m+

[marble thunder]

need to sim that mog brother what is that

[sand valve]

guardian is dead someone did check the new dmg?

[terse raptor]

haste vers makes it better for pushing keys

[zealous stag]

And? Ive still found PB useful in keys

[elder obsidian]

prizm, heart, gaze, flag from raid, plume, basicaly pick your poison

[quaint flume]

i am rockin gaze and prism

[zealous stag]

PB for incarn pulls with apex and dotc is fairly substantial

[terse raptor]

peanut butter

[elder obsidian]

Puzzlebox is good when you have someone to do the pulls for you

[zealous stag]

you can easily sit and cast it mid pull too once you have things gathered, provided you have ironfur up and a defensive going

[terse raptor]

why would you use puzzlebox when your own abilities shove mastery down your throat

[forest flume]

to get more mastery?

[bright wyvern]

It's A LOT of mastery

Simple as

[olive hare]

Judging by log data and assuming the common nopex setup, its a 10% nerf. Fine AoE wise, a little painful for its (already subpar) single target damage. But I think that profile flaw wont matter for 99% of the playerbase. Guardian still very good damage and unrivaled survivability in no apex.

[zealous stag]

my point is, dont dismiss stuff because you dont like the feel of it, and give people biased info in the process

[mild delta]

yall open vault as guardian or feral?

[bright wyvern]

Default is Feral for dps trinkets, depends on your current gear and what you're still looking for

[terse raptor]

its not dismissing, im sure it works, its just not optimal, you want to look for stats that you actually crave in whatever build you currently have instead of going the boomy route

[bright wyvern]

Wat

A fuckton of Mastery is really good in your incarn (and apex) window

It's just an extremely unwieldy trinket with the cast time

[true oyster]

This is exactly what I was looking for! Thanks I tuned in to discord at a good time

[zealous stag]

wasnt referring to yourself. I was referring to the person that actively told someone asking questions to put the puzzlebox in their bag

[quaint flume]

did we susffer alot on our overall dmg?

[bright wyvern]

7ish% dotc with apex, 10% ec build

[zealous stag]

when that wasnt the question that they asked. They saw puzzlebox and jumped on the hate

I admit, it feels bad to use, but its GOOD

[short nest]

I wish puzzlebox was bad

[tranquil oak]

so totally fine

[bright wyvern]

Still best tank yep

[tranquil oak]

i would play bear even if its not the best xD

[terse raptor]

there was a time when you pressed a trinket it gave you stats, now you have to do a tap dance, collect some orbs and shit...I'd never use trinkets like that even if they were broken

[short nest]

You do you

[zealous stag]

its a good thing youre tanking then

[short nest]

It's good enough that I can deal with the clunkiness

[random solar]

i got to 2.6k rio with 258 ilvl guardian is busted af

[short nest]

If you can't, then don't use it

[terse raptor]

if i were not tanking i'd play boomy, which has exactly what i described, a mastery on use with no bs

[forest flume]

My guy, every tank got that io day 1 of season at 240 ilvl

[quaint flume]

roough

[random solar]

i started at 9 am today tho 😄

[short nest]

Unless you're comparing drastically different item levels, an optimal trinket is just marginally better

[zealous stag]

yah, and not everyone has that choice. Theres a reason why melee run PB exclusively

given the choice, yeah, we'd use another trinket

[forest flume]

ok? lol

[bright wyvern]

Cuz it's Agility/Strength

[zealous stag]

but were not exactly spoiled for choice

[zealous stag]

part of the point, but not all of it

[short nest]

I'll happily swap out my puzzle box for beloren's feather once I have it

"but stronger!!!!"
Don't care

[zealous stag]

and have no on use?

ah, nm, forgot we're tank for a sec

XD

an on use is nice to pair with incarn but as a tank its not make or break

[bright wyvern]

We don't mean to rain on your parade mind you, it's just that this season (unlike other S1's in the past) is very easy on keys, so getting there early isn't particularly "special" and not linked to any tank's kit in particular

[random solar]

?? u good bro?

[short nest]

That's all it is, though, it's nice

[olive hare]

Tbh for nopex I just ditched pbox. I fully expect it to not be ahead of most statsticks due to the lack of those wigu spikes and I cant be bothered to run another custom apl sim just for sub 1% minmaxing

[tranquil oak]

gz ig, but its nothing special tbf

[short nest]

I'm not pushing to be the best in the world I don't have to eat meta for every meal

[zealous stag]

Yeah, im not running nopex, and wont be

I dont want hand cramps after every key

[random solar]

i wasnt saying it is i was reply to the person asking if druid is still top

[tranquil oak]

but it hasnt to do with anything about druid being op xD every tank can 2600 rio with that ilvl in 1 day

if u not dumb

[bright wyvern]

It is yes, but not because you can reach 2.6k rating with 258ilvl (every tank can do that)

[gloomy basalt]

Wew cant a man feel happy about playing the game and finding gratification in it damn

[random solar]

no time to roll healer i guess xD

[zealous stag]

I mean, thats not what what was going on, but okay

[bright wyvern]

I was just trying to explain other people's reactions

[gloomy basalt]

oh okay lemme switch sides then I was doing m0s on bear with 179 lvl so i guess its not a big deal

[tranquil oak]

nope

[bright wyvern]

No?

[short nest]

Not really

If you entire group is at that ilvl range maybe this becomes a discussion

[jade garden]

We still running no apex talents with nerfs? anyone ran sims

[zealous stag]

you can choose. Doesnt really matter

[gloomy basalt]

This was to his point of bear being broken by getting 2.6k with 260 ilvl

[jade garden]

are they simming the same?

[zealous stag]

theyre close enough that its not a huge deal. Think nopex is still slightly on top

[gloomy basalt]

Wait we have tank sims now ?

[vagrant plover]

hi :), how bad is the bear nerfs? 🙂 ?

[random solar]

The people asking which tank is 'meta'/'top' might not be the top 1% rio pusher like some of us so for them to get a better understanding that they can easly cruise to a higher rio with only pressing 2 buttons(guradian) without stressing about anything gear/skill it was for them mainly

[gloomy basalt]

10 % aoe 7 % ST

[tranquil oak]

thats a thing every good tank should reach at that range xD its like u want applause to doing basic things as a human xD

[random solar]

all the other 4k rio guys can chill now

[gloomy basalt]

it was not my statement mate read the whole thread before jumping in or you remaing out of context

[high helm]

Does the build still the same after the nerfs?

[gloomy basalt]

Yes

[high helm]

KK ty

[zealous stag]

ive been here the entire time, and its not far off how it reads

[tranquil oak]

ik it wasnt, i just answered u cuz u defended it it seems

[gloomy basalt]

Yeah i defending him being hyped about that stuff main

[bright wyvern]

You can be hyped

Don't expect others to be hyped for you tho

[gloomy basalt]

let folks find enjoyment where the can in a game rather than making toxic statements like this " hats a thing every good tank should reach at that range xD its like u want applause to doing basic things as a human xD"

[bright wyvern]

World is a cruel place

[gloomy basalt]

Basic things as human was unrequired and uncalled for but w/e

[bright wyvern]

It's toxic even if it's the truth?

[high helm]

Any ideia on what is the % drop of the item for the upgrades or where we can drop it?

[tranquil oak]

the world is tuff mate xD deal with it

[random solar]

leave it no use breaking your head over me tysm tho^^

[zealous stag]

Find enjoyment, but dont expect a discord full of people to hype you up

[hazy mural]

if im not hyped for someone, I just choose not to do anything tbh

[gloomy basalt]

Well but aleast not shit on him for being hyped

[hazy mural]

better than deflating em

[jade garden]

Can you guys go argue somewhere else, people here are trying to learn about bear and not your personal issues

[oblique moat]

think it's more the fact they said it means guardian is busted because of that

[zealous stag]

^ this tbh

its the blanket statement without context

[bright wyvern]

The goal wasn't to deflate them, the goal was to point out that "hey, this isn't particularly special, this isn't the reason bear is best tank, any tank can do this"

[tranquil oak]

yea, ppl makin drama out of it because of feelings xD

[vague sage]

This happens like every 20 mins lol. I agree with you though

[hazy mural]

ik, I took it as that too, but some ppl were clearly trying to deflate em and say thats not much of an achievement... Bear is one of the best it dosent mean u can get w.e io for sure but if 2.6k is a nice achievement for u? gj! now u can get hooked and go for 3k and maybe 3.4k!

[forest flume]

Claiming they got <xy> score because "bear is busted", while ignoring the fact that playing a 220 tank you can time 12-14s given that everyone is 280+ and will carry you - I'm happy for them if they're happy, but the "bear is busted xd" shit is getting annoying

[tranquil oak]

he didnt say that its a nice achievement for him so the point is not hittin.

[proven glade]

is nopex build still the play with these nerfs

[gloomy basalt]

Dude you missed the part where you added stuff like " thats a thing every good tank should reach at that range xD its like u want applause to doing basic things as a human xD "

But w/e its all good lets end the topic

[tranquil oak]

your feelins hurt that much mate?

damn

tuff

[forest flume]

not sure if it's the play, but it's still good

if you like bear, play it

[tranquil oak]

snowflake final boss

[forest flume]

if you like fotm, good luck

[zealous stag]

you seem to like to take what people say and take the worst possible interpretation from it

[oblique moat]

no clear info yet but likely raid bosses and m+ at the very least https://www.wowhead.com/news/more-collecting-required-to-get-weapon-or-trinket-upgrades-this-week-381585?utm_source=discord-webhook

[hazy mural]

if u like it, it works well! if u dont like it, theres the other set of talents that also work well... bear super player choice atm

[zealous stag]

despite the fact that that often involves you jumping to conclusions

[proven glade]

i mean im a "do whatever is going to give the best results" player so if something is slightly ahead im going to play that. guess ill see what the top bears do

[glass coyote]

So I get that UF absorb decreases as thrash initial dam decreases. But does UF also have a cap? I feel like I remember that from previous expansions. Is the cap still around? Wondering if that affects how we think about the UF nerf

[hazy mural]

top bears play it as it is the simplest and dont lose anything playing it

[random solar]

but i only had 279s in my grp so no carry

[tranquil oak]

just play what the highest rated players do if u want to play the best spec

[hazy mural]

already got other stuff u can think about anyways

[forest flume]

Yeah you got carried lol, anyway, hope you have fun, good luck

[hazy mural]

but if ur not a big fan of how it plays, it can kneecap u

[random solar]

was it 'any tank can do it' or got carried im losing track here xD

[tranquil oak]

in the actual state, yes and btw ppl were doing 3k in almost first week xD so yea any tank can do it 😄

[red knoll]

Why you care whats meta or top if youre not an io pusher wdt

You're contradicting yourself

[zealous stag]

if youre not pushing, just play what feels good for you

[forest flume]

need to be meta with the 0.05% advantage to get my weekly vault keys

[random solar]

people are taking about it in a discord channel for guardian druids? i never said i cared whats meta or top i was replying to people in This channel

[tranquil oak]

ig topic is done xD

at least if white knights appear

[forest flume]

Seems slightly annoying that the items we need to upgrade weapons/trinkets drop randomly

[random solar]

give it a min someones gonna reply again

[forest flume]

Doing this on 6-7 characters might be a fulltime job

[bright wyvern]

67

[tranquil oak]

https://tenor.com/view/bosnov-67-bosnov-67-67-meme-gif-16727368109953357722

[merry quest]

[forest flume]

I guess I will drop the mage, fuck mages, so only 6 characters it is

[vague sage]

If the droprate is anything like catalyst, im never finishing my upgrades

[upper heron]

Is the actual build elun chosen without apex still the better in m+ or we go dotc ?

[quaint pond]

it's prolly still better for raw overall damage but maybe not for overall key time, ppl'll have to try things out

[torpid yoke]

Just made the same decision. I'm going down to 4 toons. 1 dps and 3 tanks

[night field]

I'm playing 2 chars, thinking of leveling Aug Evo too as looks pretty fun

[willow moss]

I just started a paladin and flying my way to 90 but it just feels odd playing another toon Im not a fan haha

[strange blaze]

I have a hard time with alts but the rep changes help. I am leveling a warrior to have something to dps on

[night field]

Prot warrior also got a few buffs so you got an easy time gearing as prot and switching to dps when u get some stuff

[outer cave]

Think that bear and brew are best now. Bear nerfed about 12% and they were doing like 30% more than next highest (brew). Bear moved from strongest m+ tank of all time to.. Just regular s tier tank

[strange blaze]

Yep only needing to do 10s to get m track gear right away seems like a good season to pick up alts

[jovial apex]

Any advice on whether to take Umbral Plume or Eternal Voidsong chain? The sim has them about the same. Currently using Guidon + Alnseer trinkets. The neck seems nice, but I don't have a mechanism for triggering it yet.

[silver cobalt]

Bear will edge out monk because of better comp flexibility - enables rsham and mistweaver

[night field]

With thrash nerfed, does the Raze stock rise or is it still subpar? For EC M+

[quaint pond]

it's closer, may be better for overall time on some keys? can try it out

oh you said EC. maybe less so

dotc prolly gains more relatively speaking

[night field]

Yea I thought the same, I’ll keep it out of my current EC build then probably

[red knoll]

Even last weeks version wasnt the strongest tank of m+ of all time lmao

Dragonflight and SL were still more broken

[willow moss]

I actually got arm ache with the no apex build or it's cos I'm old 😔

[night anchor]

boring chest, any opinions?

[willow moss]

Cloak is also bis I think but sim it..

[night anchor]

we sim for dmg? new to tanking

[violet holly]

yes

[night anchor]

i have a good myth cloak, was looking to replace heros

[violet holly]

all secondaries have similar value defensively as well

[quaint pond]

defensiveness is primarily covered by ilevel + gameplay

[violet holly]

you can prio ilvl over any secondaries

[quaint pond]

it's rare but it can happen some lower ilevel item gives higher dps but in that case you'd take hte higher ilevel

[violet holly]

especially on higher stat items like the chest

[night anchor]

will sim it then ty

[quaint pond]

armor pieces anyways, trinket are another shitshow entirely

[glass warren]

Anyone telling a difference with the nerf? Because I don’t.

[prime sorrel]

Tank damage doesn’t matter at all when it comes to higher keys you just need to live so the damage nerf is whatever and the defense nerf is so minimal it doesn’t matter

[outer cave]

So this 157k dps log updated with the 15% nerf reduces the number by 9529 dps to a new total of about 148k dps.. so bear dps went from about 25k dps more than next highest to only 15k more than next highest

[quartz burrow]

[outer cave]

Dont even want to apply the 15% nerf to these logs where the bear is doing 35k more than all other tankd

[quartz burrow]

I think the second log has the nerf already applied man

[outer cave]

No its dated may 7?

[prime sorrel]

I mean this is unrealistic cause they are doing coordinated pulls that 99.9% of players and tanks aren’t going to do

[outer cave]

Sure its not 100% but its a rough figure to see impact of nerfs?

[half surge]

nerf is may 13 reset dated

[prime sorrel]

I mean yes and no. That’s how the nerfs impacted some of the top tanks in wow. I would say the nerfs hurt a 3k-3600 group more than 4k groups just on class efficiency and externally cool down coordination. Bear is still the best. But nerfs hit the 99% way harder than the 1%. So yes the class nerf is 15% or whatever it is but in real world could be higher

So the impact is probably higher than 15% figured

[hazy mural]

I can feel the thrash braincells leaving my lungs

[daring berry]

But a % damage nerf will impact more at higher DPS, no? If we’re looking at rough figures, the top guardian druids are going to be seeing roughly a 10k DPS loss. Everyone else will be seeing less than that because they are not optimizing thrash, they are not coordinating group cds with massive pulls, etc. If worse tanks are doing worse damage and pressing thrash less, they shouldn’t feel the nerf as hard since thrash is comparably less of their overall damage.

[distant cipher]

whats the best option here?, everything is an update, pants has avoidance on it

[hazy mural]

pants tbh... unless u love the box

and u want it now and not with the bonus roll...

[olive hare]

15% nerf? new patchnotes?

[hazy mural]

avoidance is w.e but it still is a tert

im on it

[distant cipher]

whats the macro for that lol

[rocky dock]

realistically, only thrash, or you wont have the rage if you need a frenzy ore brez.

[hazy mural]

hes joking xD

if only it was possible haha

[rocky dock]

one button macro to IF?

[hazy mural]

thrash and mf cost a gcd so u cant macro em together

[storm shadow]

heroic gaze of alnseer and heart of wind, and myth feather. waht woudl you use?

i like passive procs but

[glass warren]

Alnseer and feather

[violet holly]

sim it, not having to worry about trinket cd + incarn is nice

[prime sorrel]

I guess I’m getting at more that impact of the dps nerf is irrelevant and the survivability of bear is more important when getting into higher which wasn’t a very big nerf.

[storm shadow]

the changes were needed, and i feel like brought us in line. anyone dooming that is overestimating the changes

or underestimating how strong it was

still mad they barely wrist tap brew all season and we get the rollercoaster

[olive hare]

Survivability wasnt nerfed at all, EF will just finally do something in keys now

[idle spindle]

Apparently it’s top dps or u r a trash tank lol

[hazy mural]

its a lil snippy snip in defensives

[lone flare]

no, it's the fact that we have no niche if it's not for damage, for bear in particular, especially if you consider raid

[hazy mural]

UF thrashed a bit and the EF is w.e since its mostly overheal anyways

[lone flare]

brew has a more desirable group buff, utility for m+ beyond just the buff and a much easier mitigation setup

[olive hare]

EF 80% overheals in 20+ keys. Even at 15% with 20% less ursoc shields its still gonna keep you topped and overheal a ton

[lone flare]

we had (still have sort of) the damage

[hazy mural]

brew?

[lone flare]

but they've since toned down the damage to be similar to others, except we don't have any ofthe other utility outside of mark of the wild, to bring to

[hazy mural]

I would say motw much better

[lone flare]

hmm okay, maybe, but our other specs are more popular than brew's other specs, and phys meta is strong rn isn't it

but like, even with that in mind, that's all we really bring, mark of the wild, cres is much more common now, speed boost is nice but not be-all-end-all and that's more or less it

[true oyster]

wym mw is gas rn

[olive hare]

Brew much better utility idk . No brez, inferior offheals, only thing its slightly better at is that aoe stun+rop beats typhoon/vortex+incaproar, but just ever so slightly.

[lone flare]

it is but brew + resto druid is more popular than bear + mw

for a reason

[hazy mural]

has some tech... but same tech can be done by MW

[lone flare]

lol

[opal ledge]

ring of peace has some niche uses but still aint big of a deal

[hazy mural]

I prefer having an MW by far

[gloomy glacier]

DOTC still better than EC for mythic raid?

[hazy mural]

Shamans dont tank heal well at all

[lone flare]

and it comes down to ease of survivability + damage, so brew ends up the fuller package, it's also easier to play, incidentally

[gloomy glacier]

haven't been able to keep up in the discord cause taking care of my grandmother, but i haven't changed from apex DOTC for raid yet

[lone flare]

i very much enjoy mistweavers when I'm tanking, yes

[outer cave]

If ur not doing meld skips is there any reason why Kul tiran isn't the best race for bear?

[forest flume]

because shadowmeld is bis everywhere

[hazy mural]

SR with shaman vs MW is very noticable its sad

[lone flare]

meh, smelly elves

[outer cave]

Why is meld bis

[forest flume]

shadowmeld -> flightform too convenient

[outer cave]

If ur not doing skips

[forest flume]

there's a game outside dungeons

[outer cave]

Im talking about performance in dungeons only

[gloomy glacier]

nelf also gets 1% dodge, then crit or haste pending on time, and then nature resistance

[cloud hill]

do i need to pick up starsurge for it to auto proc on Star Cascade?

[lone flare]

they're relatively close, EC is technically higher, dotc still very capable, apex necessary regardless of which you choose

[lone flare]

no

[gloomy glacier]

Thanks

[drifting agate]

do you guys use a macro to cast Moonkin + HotW together?

[wispy shard]

You can, I use one for Cat form HotW Feral Frenzy.

[drifting agate]

is it just /cast /cast or you need like /castsequence?

[warm sun]

how is damage today after the nerf?

[zenith narwhal]

Still just fine haha

[wispy shard]

I use a castsequence that I spam/hit three times.

#showtooltip Heart of the Wild
/castsequence reset=5 Cat Form, Heart of the Wild, Bear Form

[prime sorrel]

Dead Bear does no damage

[drifting agate]

TY!

[wispy shard]

I think the nerf is like 10% damage. Bigger impact on survivability, but maybe a single key level worth at the upper end.

[lament dock]

Doesn't really feel like much of a survivability hit tbh

[zenith narwhal]

Now instead of capable of 23 we are capable of the 22s most of us will never do

xd

[mental notch]

Is Apex mandatory now in high keys or is the apex-less still within a small margin of dam and survivability

[zenith narwhal]

the opposite

[prime sorrel]

Amen

[zenith narwhal]

taking the apex is forbod]

[torn depot]

both good

[wispy shard]

If you like Apex, then doing a Druid of the Claw Build with it is probably ideal. If you dont' like it, run Elune's without it.

But both Hero Specs and Apex/No Apex is fine.

[mental notch]

I’m a big fan of the EC apexless build with HotW

[zenith narwhal]

this is the current "meta"

[torn depot]

all builds are pretty close to each other

EC, dotc, apex or not

play whatever works for you tbh

[lone flare]

not really, post-patch apex/raze are more valuable than thrash spam

[mental notch]

Well that’s good for me then, haha

[idle spindle]

Trust me I agree 100% but I’m in the minority with that opinion

[lone flare]

and the thrash mf spam build was nerfed more than the rest

[zenith narwhal]

Runebear finally drop this morning team. Time to quit for season

[mental notch]

Finished all my 19’s on my Aug and am gonna play bear for a few weeks before the final title push at end of season on Aug

[torn depot]

arguably already the case before the nerf tbh, but yes, the nerf hits no apex harder than apex builds

[lone flare]

mhm mhm

[deep cobalt]

whats rune bear?

[remote oxide]

idk how accurate the latest API is but my bear is simming ~15% dps increase for DotC over EC

[zenith narwhal]

The appearance from the emerald dream world boss lol

[deep cobalt]

oh altazor or whatever his name is?

[vapid heart]

How's the update so far? Bear doomed? Switch build?

[torn depot]

bear still good

[zenith narwhal]

yes

[vapid heart]

Nah mate, bear is best.

[lone flare]

7-10% damage nerf depending on what build you were running

[zenith narwhal]

This probably true if playing echoes perfectly. That is much harder to do than playing EC degenerate build perfectly.

[torn depot]

[wispy shard]

Bear not doomed. Bear is strong. Even the "brain off" EC build of three buttons is still competitive. We're in a really solid spot where you can flex whatever your playstyle is.

[tired cliff]

question is how mutch impact the hotfix will have

[torn depot]

bear is always best in my soul

[zenith narwhal]

I mean if they'd buffed thrash by 275 percent instead of 300 percent originally we would've been just fine haha

we just got to experience absurd and now we're experiencing highly competitive instead.

[tired cliff]

the healing hit will be pretty big then

[wispy shard]

I heard 10-12% on the EC three button build. But a lower impact on the Apex and/or Dotc build. 7-12% if we incorporate in Diruuo's numbers.

[deep cobalt]

IM TIRED OF THIS GRANDPA

[remote oxide]

Not that hard to do right? I'm more worried about how sturdy you are in EC vs DotC

[zenith narwhal]

I mean just hard-er. But depends how long you've been doing it ofc.

[wispy shard]

A little less shields. A little less useless overhealing. We're not Pre-Patch Prot Paladins nor are we Stagger Robots. We're fine!

[lone flare]

there's essentially no real difference in survivability between the two

and the nerf now affects only a bit of our survivability, so it won't make a significant difference

[zenith narwhal]

Like 65 percent + of my EF was always overhealing anyway as Brochilin said

[lone flare]

and yeah, elune's favored is generally bad

before patch, after patch

it's just not a very good talent

better to spend the point elsewhere

[daring nymph]

[remote oxide]

I'll have to test in some 16s tonight, but feels like I'm going back to DotC

[daring nymph]

How’s things

[lone flare]

same old

good morning

[daring nymph]

Nvm

[daring nymph]

I can see that

[violet holly]

play whatever you want

if you liked the ec build you can keep running it

the nerfs are very small

it wont make a difference for you

[wispy shard]

Honestly if you drop your one Elune's Favored Point for the first point in the Apex for repeat Frenzied Regen and you run Natural Resilience (the FR overhealing to shield) you would probably get more value.

[remote oxide]

The only thing I'm pretty sure on is that Raze is 🪦

[violet holly]

you dont need to change anything in the nopex build

[wispy shard]

Correct. * But we do have plenty of options to change if you want to. But you don't have to do anything. Enjoy the video game.

[remote oxide]

Does ravage aoe benefit from Moonless Night?

[quaint pond]

ya

all maul replacements can proc mn

[remote oxide]

That explains a lot then

so yea, no raze, and ravage on proc

[neat spindle]

Are you using mangle at any point in rotation? For ec build

[lone flare]

this....isn't really true at all lol

[grand plinth]

Alright not to self promote but people have been asking for my new builds so I made a quick video to reference with the most common questions https://youtu.be/Vee5fJ7SmyM

Talents and rotation

[lone flare]

ofc

why wouldn't you

rage good

[daring nymph]

Yes

[grand plinth]

Mangle good button

Rage help you have less cd on incarn

[neat spindle]

New to m+ build and everyone kept saying press thrash, beam on cd and moon fire as filler

[torn depot]

moonfire lowers lunar beam cooldown
mangle gives more rage, therefore lower incarnation cooldown

[lone flare]

yeah, no, you should mangle as filler instead, can use empowered moonfires, but spamming it is not advisable

[torn depot]

the choice is simple tbh

[night field]

some mangles when u need rage

[neat spindle]

I see

[violet holly]

so the meme is that you can spam thrash and moonfire to get more lunar beam uptime, but you should press mangle as well because it gives a lot of rage and thus incarn cdr

[daring nymph]

Honestly just use empowered mf only use mangle as filler

[rustic kestrel]

in aoe pressing GG procs vs normal moonfires is the exact same thing

[daring nymph]

You’ll still gain enough cdr on lunar beam

[lone flare]

and you know what you can do with extra rage? - raze

funny how that works

[neat spindle]

Ahh makes sense, I was avoiding mangle like the plague

[forest flume]

that's way too complicated though /s

[violet holly]

yeah and instead of spending all on ironfur you can use maul to improve ST

[trim plaza]

Mangle is satisfying to press, why to avoid

[grand plinth]

Because people have been saying not to

[forest flume]

streamers told people to press thrash and moonfire only

[grand plinth]

Its like a 1% aoe dps increase in the meme build

maybe

to never press mangle

[tender field]

Does a 285 crafted wep and a 289 myth wep upgrade to the same Ilvl when using the new Voidshards? If so, would we use 1 wep/1 arcano? or is x2 arcano still end game bis?

[rustic kestrel]

no

[grand plinth]

Nope

[lone flare]

no, still different ilvls

[tender field]

Okay, thanks. Wish it clarified in the item

[rich kestrel]

im assuming the build has changed with the nerfs today ?

or is it still no apex talents

[violet holly]

still the same builds

no changes, run either

[rich kestrel]

so elunes with no apex

[quaint pond]

if you want to run that

[lone flare]

if that's what you want, sure

[heady ingot]

Hey guys, are we swapping forms to remove things like chains in seat? or will that get me killed

[lone flare]

you should use persistence

and yes, we swap

[brazen crypt]

If you are worried about getting squished swap to boomkin so you at least have some built in armor

[cedar bay]

Anyone wanna do a 5 bear 21 today with weapon upgrades? Id like another post on reddit so they disable this class.

[shut jasper]

if you go cat on a big enough pull you'll just splat as ec

chicken should be safe though

[forest flume]

I wouldn't mind another thrash nerf, go ahead and do it

[sharp gale]

we should do a 5 bear run but only use hotw starfall or feral frenzy to complete a key

[forest flume]

starfall does pityful damage

[plush fern]

how good is this?

[lunar field]

it procs ALOT when there's shadow damage. how good it is - not sure. leech never hurts though.

[plush fern]

oh thank you, couldnt find the PPM

[quaint pond]

it's 1 rppm

very random but it's just a free bonus

[lunar field]

i only notice it alot because there's an annoying red line from your character to a mob when it procs

[forest flume]

yeah you are sucking away their lifeblood

[azure scarab]

So can still use meme build yeah ?

[remote oxide]

Yea, it's still fine

[azure scarab]

Sweet

[lunar field]

a guildy said thrash was 4x dmg last week (compared to before the original buff) and this week it'll be 3x

[torn depot]

it was 3x damage, now its 2.25x damage compared to before

the direct damage, dot remains unchanged

[lunar field]

ah ok. so not 1 mil dps but still alot.

[forest flume]

you could do 1mil+ in some pulls before the buff, fairly sure you can still do it after the nerf today

[lament bane]

double apex on egg beloren still work ?

[glass warren]

Is there a video for the 5 guardian Druid 20+?

[karmic thunder]

tyvm for the thoughtful vid!

[open heron]

kira made a reacting vid bout this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BKGjSFaM5Y

[serene gyro]

Awoo and Squish just did a +20 Maisara Caverns in a group of 5

prior to patch

https://youtu.be/Q5G275whGMM?si=VN2Yby6Njdw1xEcr

[oblique moat]

was the cn not first

[gloomy yew]

cn did spire

[serene gyro]

CN was first, their run was Windspire I think

[oblique moat]

i think the cat in the thumbnail is misleading

[forest flume]

at least they are doing the typical youtube face

wouldn't be a real youtube video without it

[fallow totem]

dat clickbait. as if blizzard hadnt planned to nerf it. nope they saw 5chinese and called in for a emergency meeting

[unique oyster]

@grand plinth Which addon do you use to make the add's lifespan like that?

[grand plinth]

How is it different?

I think its just default?

It might be enhancedQOL

Oh yeah it super is

[lament dock]

You're a good bear

[forest flume]

a good bear*

[lament dock]

That's what I said, sheesh

[forest flume]

[lament dock]

https://tenor.com/view/good-morning-gif-14088673994703894978

[grand plinth]

ty ty

Just to be clear

Im also not telling anyone

They HAVE to run my builds

I just think that they are slightly better for your timer than the other one

but less overall maybe slightly

and lots of people dont like the two button stuff. So thats who this is mostly for

[lament dock]

Toxic 😮

[grand plinth]

LMAO CLIPPED

[daring mortar]

Damn the Chinese for getting guardian nerfed!

[forest flume]

even our expert here agrees

[trim plaza]

chinese are always 1 step ahead

[distant cipher]

how much ilvl gets the voidforged heroic trinkets?

[daring mortar]

They really do be.

曾经有一段时间，我自己都挺“中国”的。

[surreal loom]

Got this at 289 as my off piece, very nice extra bonus

[trim plaza]

u mean with the upgrade thingy?

[rustic kestrel]

its already so funny out of context, but that fucking pepe with it is just incredible

[umbral axle]

Hey can pls someexplöain the Playstyle difference from the no apex Build to the Max Dmg EC Build here in the Pinned Messages i didnt play Bear a long time and iam confused this Build has Konvoke in it ^^

[rustic kestrel]

if you see convoke its a raid build

[umbral axle]

my fail

😄

[violet holly]

but but convoke is good in m+ to off heal

[rustic kestrel]

lmao

[umbral axle]

what talents are suggested with apex in it

[violet holly]

lmao²

[umbral axle]

only M+ btw

[violet holly]

if you want to run apex you can run the dotc m+ build

[umbral axle]

wanna test what feels nice to play for me 😉 whats the playstyle difference to no apex ?

[violet holly]

no apex is a very simple button rotation that basically just plays around maximizing uptime of lunar beam and doing as much thrash damage

dotc you have the ravage proc and the apex has wild guardian which echoes abilities

[umbral axle]

yeah did 2 Keys with it feels strange maybe its my gear arround 255 but to much down time on trash to often i cant use something

[violet holly]

you should be pressing thrash and mangle on cd and fill with moonfires there

and you can use maul to help in st, dont need to spend all rage on ironfur

[umbral axle]

cant believe any guide saw a video who says no mangle

[violet holly]

truth is it doesn't really matter because its stupid strong and simple

but you benefit a lot from pressing mangle

extra rage, extra incarn cdr

[umbral axle]

maybe thats the feeling i had that i coudnt use something so often in the 2 keys

[trim plaza]

and u might not fall asleep

[violet holly]

and since the st of this build is low you can squeeze some mauls on prio targets/bosses whenever you have an ironfur rolling

at low keys you are giga safe with 1/2 ironfurs active so you can definitely spend it on maul if you want

[umbral axle]

is that the correct build for no apex CgGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgZmxsMmZMziZZegxMWGYMDjmoZmZZmZmZWGzwAAAAAYGmxyMAAAAUzsMLzMzAAYBzAYxMYALWMAYmNYA

[violet holly]

whatever is in the pins is ok

[umbral axle]

its not like in the pins from the video i saw

[violet holly]

yeah you can drop sundering roar for killing blow if you want to use maul

[eager galleon]

I pray they get rid of red moon and one of the maul talents

[trim plaza]

why?

[umbral axle]

will try another Key with this thx for the tipps

[violet holly]

[exotic verge]

hows bear feeling in M+? much difference?

[idle spindle]

Depends on skill lvl

But overall pretty good

[trim plaza]

huh

[eager galleon]

They can't balance around so many single target levers

And I like having something to spam if I can't be in range 😭

Not exactly single target, but stacking buffs to a single ability

[frozen vessel]

Naowh made a video saying he believes bears are still the best tank for keys. ~10-13% AoE dmg nerf, and 30% ish reduction to UF effectiveness. But that with a few more frenzied regens, you're golden still.

[topaz sparrow]

This discord now giving advice on a build it inherently disagrees with.

[violet holly]

blizzard payed some members

double agents

[eager galleon]

I mean the entire discord doesn't disagree with it. You should just use whatever's best or whatever you want depending on the content

[finite rivet]

guys so i have a hero neck and hero back piece should i get a mythic one of those from my vault? OR i have the option to replace my mythic 1/6 jelly replicator or mythic 1/6 vessel of tortured souls trinket with a mythic heart of the wind both my hero pieces are fully upgraded

[violet holly]

what can you do, tell ppl "no I wont tell you anything bc I dont like the build, shoo go away"?

[worthy trench]

Myth heart

[lone flare]

I'd sim, but the trinket situation seems more dire to me lol

[finite rivet]

yeah thats what im thinking

[violet holly]

myth heart is nice

[finite rivet]

i should replace vessel right?

[worthy trench]

Hearts a BiS so I’d take that I have a hero one 🙄

[violet holly]

sim it

[eager galleon]

Jelly vessel is a very good trinket if you get hungry

Otherwise it isn't good

[trim plaza]

pretty sure discord has like 6-7 diff viable builds

xd

[shut jasper]

no sim result is gonna make me take vessel over literally anything

[limber current]

Only if you have the toast trinket too

[finite rivet]

ive never simmed before where should i go to do that?

[violet holly]

there's a guide in the resources tab #1463934154935894128 message

[finite rivet]

ty

[daring nymph]

you can disagree with something and still give helpful advice about it

idk why people like to make it into a tribalism thing

we're all bear players