1.0.1c Experimental

[floral cedar]

like for the suit bosses instead of being disabled make them retrigger

though idk, its a weird idea and cant work for some bosses

[mortal sedge]

and the "sell this joker to disable the boss blind" one

[floral cedar]

Luchador yeah

[mortal sedge]

does disabling the boss blind work on the wall and violet vessel?

like, does their score go back to normal?

[formal crystal]

Yes

[mortal sedge]

interesting. what about the needle? does its score increase?

[formal crystal]

Also yes I believe

You get the hands back

[floral cedar]

yeah

[mortal sedge]

oh!

[floral cedar]

needles score doesnt increase iirc?

but ik violet vessel and wall both go to 1x base, so the amount of the small blind

[mortal sedge]

really?

[floral cedar]

probably

[mortal sedge]

huh

[formal crystal]

I don't think I ever have done that so I'm not sure

[floral cedar]

I tested it a few weeks ago but I wasnt rlly paying attention

[mortal sedge]

anyway, back to the main point, I just feel like chicot is a weird joker because, while its effect is powerful and could certainly help you win the run, it's not especially interesting, and kinda makes the entire run from that point on have very little variety

it's a bit weird imo

[mystic oriole]

Bumping my opinion

[mortal sedge]

woah, huh?

my game stuttered for a moment while I was discarding, and this card just... got stuck?

oh....

[hardy rock]

the average bloodstone X mult is like .1 away (its like 7.58X on average)

[floral cedar]

yeah that has been a bug since demos

[hardy rock]

from ancient joker

[floral cedar]

clicking cards with enough lag can cause them to glitch on the screen

[hardy rock]

(on experimental branch)

[mortal sedge]

"you clicked cards, didn't you?"

[hardy rock]

and yes on balance nerfing bloodstone to 1.75x would make it more balanced. Though, if you nerf it to 1.5x i'm not so sure. Flushes should have a win condition, the current meta is very fair rn. High card still dominates, its not like we're forcing flushes every gold stake run or something like that.

there's still just as much high card winning the changes were marginal for the average player in terms of behavioral change. Nerfing the scaling jokers is what's actually op

its not even a comparison bloodstone to the scaling jokers

too much attention is being given to the only good flush card

[floral cedar]

it was first found by me spamming through my cards with an autoclicker

[rocky oar]

damn i forgot my pants were eternal theyre barely buffed

the legendary joker has about a 50% chance to help me

[floral cedar]

see

[rocky oar]

cause triboulet, canio, and chicot abt half the time

but also i want a gold legendary

[floral cedar]

perkeo can help a bit, but not rlly

[rocky oar]

its ante 8 and i gotta skip for my debuffs

[pallid rampart]

anyone else not feeling the madness nerf? was it that strong?

i feel like it was polarizing since it wasnt good in stakes without eternal

but quite good with them

[floral cedar]

I dont feel the nerf, cause I never used it

[coarse fable]

yeah I kinda don't like madness as much now. It still is really only good at black stake+ and losing out on the extra 0.5x mult per ante sucks

[floral cedar]

Its still better tthan throwback, but it locks your joker lineup

[tulip leaf]

+1x mult an ante is very good, so it's far from bad

but it's not as busted anymore

[hardy rock]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx1H_ZIH9gQ

BU basically just said that he wants ante 7 and 8 to go up in chip scaling for gold stake 🤔

Honestly I can see their point, and if it came with the removal of the -1 discard stake i'd support it. Gold stake does feel slightly too easy with all the changes together.

[floral cedar]

guess I get to test Chicot

though its not like Im struggling this run

[hardy rock]

I love chicot, regardless of what anyone else says. It only feels like a rip off if you get a bunch of easy bosses where they didn't matter.

[pallid rampart]

were you always able to find black hole in spectral packs

i dont think ive seen it before

[hardy rock]

I do feel like i've seen it. I feel like I had some spectral cards in hand at the time. I could be totally wrong though i don't want to mislead you.

[tulip leaf]

yes

[pallid rampart]

its like the first time ive seen it, and i have like 100 hours

[floral cedar]

this is why we have Mr Bones

[floral cedar]

You have to open around 100 packs for it according to what math said and iirc

I mean it wasnt an instant win, but crimson heart wouldve sucked without it ig

also I was so close to performing a bug but sadly I couldnt 😦

NOOOOOOOOOO

its barely losing

[modern kiln]

rip...

[floral cedar]

dna hologram wouldve been so good

[rare elm]

magic deck down

[floral cedar]

nice

Im mid magic deck, its one of my facorites ngl

[rocky oar]

bad news its perkeo (new sentence)
and boss blind is leaf
i have a reroll but i dont wanna risk vv

[floral cedar]

gl

[rocky oar]

wait i might be able to do this without selling

Oh my god.

[floral cedar]

yo??

[rocky oar]

https://youtu.be/W8w0ShHki_c

we take these

[floral cedar]

should have put the pants first

also seltzer was worst than the walkie talkie, but it was your safety option

[rocky oar]

yeah but i realized "wait do i have to sell?" after i exited the shop

[floral cedar]

I mean 7 golden stickers is hype

especially with the legendary

[rocky oar]

yeah

time to make them actually golden lmao

TO THE ASEPRITEMOBILE

[spiral comet]

that took forever

golden needle: ✅

Early game MVP's: Faceless Joker, Hieroglyph

Run Carry MVP's: Bloodstone (Foil from WOF), Throwback (Holographic) x4.5, Hologram x2.5

3 natural negatives too

[cyan river]

What's the best deck to farm soul stone on?

[floral cedar]

anaglyph for packs or ghost

actually ghost wont help

ig just anaglyph and yellow deck then

[frail bison]

jokerless on gold stake

[fading jacinth]

4oak build 👍

[night basin]

True, but saving up double tags with anaglyph deck for the negative tag is still too strong. How about making the negative joker tag giving it a negative joker for 50% discount?

[pastel gulch]

It's really not - there are other equally broken tags that can swing a run with anaglyph:
Double your money
Hand level
Spectral
Outside of a few edge cases, infinitely stacking negative jokers is not that strong when a majority of them are common. You need specific uncommon/rare jokers as negative to create the really broken builds which don't crop up enough in the shops to make the neg tag be that overpowered with anaglyph

the main benefit to negative common jokers is econ, but if you've got a screen full of double tags your run is probably a W anyway in which case who cares if you can get double digit jokers

#🕹・game-discussion message
My 18 joker anagylph run, made approx 500k per hand because all the jokers were straight ass

[night basin]

Interesting i had quite a bunch of good runs were the many negative jokers did work well for me and got pretty insane. Maybe it's not as reliable as I thought. I don't really agree all those other tags are that broken. Multiple spectrals don't really do much anymore when you are further into the game in my experience. Hand level can be great when it's the right one i agree.

[proud pond]

it's kinda hard to see rental on this guy I didn't notice till after I lost 3$

[pastel gulch]

there are of course good rolls and bad rolls but when half of the jokers in the common pool are 'hand type' + chips/mult its really not that strong

so you have to:
Have a run strong enough to not need to cash in your tags to progress
Get the neg tag late enough to stack the negatives
The negatives actually be good

seems enough edge cases to not need a tweak imo

Spectral for ecto can be busted, giving your existing joker pool negative is strong as it enables extra copies

vs giving you a load of shite common negatives

[frail bison]

Best use for -ve tags is farming stickers

[pastel gulch]

took me a minute to figure out -ve is negative

negativeve

[steel scaffold]

got new heartstone with oops all 6’s, but it was too late in the run but felt the power once oh to have quickly pivot’d from pairs to flushes

[fervent beacon]

I read this as hearthstone

[steel scaffold]

Its so good

[fervent beacon]

It's funny

[rare elm]

rental hologram is indeed pretty hard to spot

[fervent beacon]

Its like when you're taking a school photo and then some punk ass kid stands right in front of you and blocks you lol

[long breach]

interesting trap there Typecast

[modern kiln]

D:

What a nightmare

[spiral comet]

wait this should algebraically be effective X4 mult 🤔

(assuming 2 stencils)

[modern kiln]

that's very funny lmao

[rare elm]

pretty sure all xmult is capped at minimum X1

so it's x1 * x1

but display is weird yeah

[spiral comet]

yeah it’s floored at X1

[rare elm]

was already reported that perishable (jokers type) with rental sticker still take money, but confirmed it happens with mr. bones as well

also funnily enough banana with perishable sticker can go extinct the same round it expires

[steady coyote]

Was just playing the "Golden Needle" challenge and got ruined by The Water boss blind. All 6 of my discards got removed making the whole challenge almost impossible

[outer cypress]

Yeah the water on golden needle is just unfun imo

[rare elm]

😭

[rare elm]

ghost deck down 🫡

green joker doing all the work

[steep spruce]

is that gold win?

[pallid rampart]

that is gold

[steep spruce]

the perfect perishable

[steep spruce]

why are both showman ive seen perishable

[spiral comet]

rng

[floral cedar]

rip

I swear showman is 2x more likely when you have 1 showman

and you cant tell me otherwise

[formal crystal]

Yorick popping off

The change to it really helps it not be a complete dead weight

Cause now it only takes one ante to become a X2

[floral cedar]

yeah

also the fact it can go past 5x makes it so much more fun to get

[south pendant]

This chat is turning into just another server chat instead of experimental version ideas and bug reporting/ideas and balance discussions.

[fervent beacon]

And?

[floral cedar]

tbf everyone would past the same like 5 bugs over and over

[spare shuttle]

"guys i found a bug, there's a buffon pack in jokerless challenge"

[floral cedar]

Yoooo wait what!?!?!
thats insane!!!

[wide grove]

https://tenor.com/view/wow-owen-wilson-owen-wilson-impressed-gif-9987719

[lunar epoch]

a soul and a sell

[hardy rock]

i wonder if after the patch goes live the rng seeds will change again 🤔

if they have to fix the bug with jokerless? I assume not but it was kinda weird that they changed in the first place

[broken needle]

Any rarity change will do that 🫡

[hardy rock]

interesting, so if they make bloodstone rare like some have suggested, it really will

[broken needle]

That’s not going to happen without all the other suit jokers too

[floral cedar]

imo it didnt rlly need the buff

might just have been me though

[astral kayak]

it prob didnt but it felt rly bad to play when your run hinged on bloodstone hitting

but now its def way too good

[broken needle]

Buffing all the other suit uncommons and making them rare would be smart though

Might dilute rare pool too much though

[burnt lichen]

yeah, and when you have a perishable banana, it will still show the "x rounds left" text if it goes extinct before it gets disabled

[formal crystal]

I wonder if instead of making the joker free, the skip tags should make it spawn without tags

As is, past orange stake, going for them may be a massive liability

[long breach]

one remedy would be a new tag exclusively to higher stake

but I guess it's too late for that now

many people complains about RNG, and that'll be very relevant when this new patch arrives thanks to the two new stickers lol

[hardy rock]

but the patch made gold stake and orange stake like 10x higher avergae winrate 😿

from like 10~20% to like 50~90%

[long breach]

I'll be honest, even at Purple / Orange, the RNG can be brutal especially on Black Deck

everyone can say "just go with the flow" until a boss kill your run on Ante 5 / 6 with no way to counter it

not very fun lol

[formal crystal]

I still feel like the problem of skipping wasn't really resolved and the changes didn't really make skipping more of a consideration late game, instead making skipping the first small blind the only time you do it

[solar oriole]

more like the perfect meme

[hardy rock]

its a servicable change

for people who double skip at the beggining, ocassionally if they get lucky enough it will be the right choice

[formal crystal]

And there were a lot of changes around skipping, including both new joker stickers and the buffs to skipping tags

[hardy rock]

and it transformed that absolutely awful second worst deck in the game into a decent one

[solar oriole]

I wish +3 hand size tags were like mini kidney beans and had an effect for several rounds

[hardy rock]

i think the changes succeeded in 2/3 mission statements

which is good enough

[solar oriole]

also, if you want to make me really excited about free jokers, make them "clean", no stickers

[formal crystal]

The removal of pack cost increases made shops better, so skipping was also indirectly devalued

I feel boss tag should be changed to be "storable", like a free version of directors cut

Juggle, standard, meteor, charm, voucher and garbage tag are also mostly untakeable

[south pendant]

And? It's redundant and unhelpful - i assume you're not a game dev

[south pendant]

the more common the bug the higher on the list it goes...

[frail bison]

another "how the fuck did i win" win

[faint rain]

babananan

throwback mustve been hella good right?

like x3?

[dim parcel]

This has probably been talked about but I'm still not convinced about the nerf to sinful jokers

I guess it's a change targeting new players on white stake, but honestly -1mult isn't gonna stop people from playing flushes

[south pendant]

i personally dont like it either, but the game is still winnable, but its a great starting joker for sure.

i have been a die hard flush boy until the buff to straights tho, straights are amazing now

flush ftw for me mostly lol

[dim parcel]

They weren't that good in the first place honestly, I but rn a full flush of your joker's suit gives 15 mult aka a mystic summit or abstract

[south pendant]

i think it was done for a balance between the flush/straight thing idk

[dim parcel]

Obviously applying on trigger is an advantage, but I think making them give +20 for a flush is a reasonable amount

[south pendant]

while looking at my stats, i have no idea why tf i have so much use with the egg lmao

[dim parcel]

Idk maybe I'm not in tune with lower stakes players bc they use the sinful jokers a lot more than I do on average

[south pendant]

maybe for temperance, but i def got a couple sinfuls in there

[dim parcel]

So maybe it's ok to nerf them even though they weren't overpowered? Idk

[south pendant]

im offtopic but that just caught me off guard lol

yeah i honestly agree with you

[dim parcel]

It just feels bad bc I want to use them more in goldstake but they're not rly as takeable anymore

[south pendant]

i tend to choose my suit and favor before the round begins and hope i get a good seed for it lmao

hit a new PB for highest round earlier today and didnt use one sinful joker

[dim parcel]

Optimal gaming

[south pendant]

hahaha this is the same way i beat Dark Souls 2; brute force

[dim parcel]

Maybe theres a way you can make sinful jokers more takeable on gold stake but less centralizing on lower stakes but that would involve overcomplicating the effect probably

Anyway lots of words to say I think they should be +4

[south pendant]

well for gold, i wouldnt take them ever if theyre perished or rentable tbf

especially not for +3

i only have 2 gold decks, but almost finished with the standard red

[dim parcel]

Perishable sinful is a major cope take, can carry your ante 2 but so much more awkward than just taking raised fist or smth

[south pendant]

yeah raised fist is a good point.. but +3 over 5 cards is still a guaranteed 15, instead of hoping whats left in the hand could equal that

assuming your going for flushing ig

idk my mind is a flushscape

[dim parcel]

The thing is that with other jokers like raised fist you can play a +20/18 mult pair 4 times a round

But a +15 flush you can only really draw once early game since it's a flush for a specific suit

[south pendant]

yeah. i guess i would have to say after playing 1.0.1c for awhile the only change i would make is rebuffing the sinful jokers

esp with the straight buff for saturn

cause there is so many things for flush builds

straights needed some help

[dim parcel]

I'd also rebuff banner, but the banner nerf is justifiable enough that either way is fine by me

[south pendant]

remind me what was the nerf again?

i hardly pick the banner

[dim parcel]

40->30 per discard

[south pendant]

ah

[dim parcel]

It was quite overcentralizing on lower stakes bc the 3 discards, and led to boring gameplay

Now it feels quite weak in higher stakes bc of many better chip options

[south pendant]

yeah i only picked banner for my plasma runs but ive got gold on plasma now so i prob wont touch it again lol

[long breach]

speaking of Plasma

Stuntman + Blueprint = busted, since the penalty isn't copied lol

[summer pine]

idk if maybe a 35 banner is called for or if that breaks design conventions by doing a multiple of 5 instead of 10

[fading jacinth]

make banner 37 chip

[long breach]

speaking of Banner

Delayed Gratification seems to be a bit strict with the "no discard" condition

maybe lower to $1 per unused discard for more flexablity?

[spiral comet]

delayed gratification is more like a

“delay your gratification” to receive more

[long breach]

I just find it weird that both Jokers use Discard, but one is all or nothing vs one is leftover

[spiral comet]

it’s fine as is i think

used it before

can be pretty helpful early game

especially on joker-centric runs

[long breach]

I don't argue that it's busted or nothing, it just doesn't feel useful even in early game

[spiral comet]

it certainly gives stacks of cash when i used it before

if you spend 1 hand

you get $6 profit

assuming 3 discards

if you spend 4 hands (max without blue/voucher)

you still gain $3

[long breach]

again, no argument on that. This is a Joker that's powerful when it works

[spiral comet]

yep

the risk that comes with this joker is that you have to discard or you die type of scenario

[long breach]

^ that is where I think Banner did better, because it still lets you discard

[spiral comet]

(it still does with a large diminished amount of chips)

[long breach]

now, both of these are early game Jokers

[spiral comet]

not all jokers are equally good btw

same-rarity wise

[long breach]

isn't the goal is trying to find a middle point so Jokers can be of use when they're present lol

otherwise R spam makes this game less fun

[spiral comet]

delayed gratification isn’t bad

it’s just niche

the effect is also a reference to the name, where you “delay your payout by playing more hands” to get potentially more in return

it encourages a different playstyle which is pretty cool

[long breach]

I'm no English expert, so unless this word specifically mean "all or nothing gamble"

[spiral comet]

i pulled this off from google:

Delaying gratification is "the act of resisting an impulse to take an immediately available reward in the hope of obtaining a more-valued reward in the future.

in balatro context resisting immediate extra hand payout for potentially more payout through this joker

[frail bison]

DG sucks it's literally worse golden joker in high stakes and who uses merry andy anyway

[stone warren]

any information on when we will get the update?

[spiral comet]

not any that i know of

[mystic oriole]

Delayed gratification is insanely weak compared to other econ jokers like to do list, it should be buffed to like $3 per discard

It's definitely worse now due to the mail in rebate buff

[slim dew]

Or $2 per unused discard

instead of all or nothing

[shell sparrow]

Hear me out, make it apply at end of round so it can make Interest

Instead of Cash Out

[slim dew]

That too

[rare elm]

chad is so broken now 🫡

[stone warren]

true

chad + photo is the most op common combo ever

[dull sphinx]

i know people think chicot sucks and whatever, but i'm 100% chicot believer now. literally right before a disabled heart boss blind w/ a hack bloodstone build, i got chicot and it saved my run. Chigoat

[rare elm]

theres a lot of undeserved hate around chicot, yeah

[dull sphinx]

first time i actually got canio tho i think i lost a few rounds later lol

so ive yet to see his strength myself. the other legendaries i've had pop off

[summer pine]

x2 retriggers, x3 jokers, not a very common multiplier so that's hype

[long breach]

A Legendary Joker that only activates once every 3 rounds is rather underperforming IMO

if anything, I think it needs a side buff

something like "double pay out for boss blind"

[dull sphinx]

or just literally make it always negative

lol

thats literally its biggest problem is that it takes up a slot when you'd rather have a score joker. negative utility jokers are nice tho

its utility is still strong

[lost flicker]

Any word from the devs on when they think the patch will go live? I play on switch so I can't do experimental but am very excited about some of the changes

particularly the changes with the tags (cuz I suck and think I'll finally be able to beat orange stake lol)

[modern kiln]

Fuck... (red card is at +54, square is at +160)

I probably can't do it without the second baseball trigger

[spiral comet]

smeared gone?

it’s perishable

[modern kiln]

4 rounds remaining, and it's uncommon

The problem is I need a slot for a second 1.5x from Baseball

[spiral comet]

ah ic

[modern kiln]

I think I sell smeared for 2$, take the soul, see what it is and if it's bad then sell for 10$ and reroll for another uncommon?

[formal crystal]

Yeah probably

[modern kiln]

But at the same time, what legendary would I even want?

[formal crystal]

With four rounds remaining, the only ones you can really use are canio and perkeo

An I guess chicot if you really wanted to

[modern kiln]

Canio I'm unlikely to trigger, Trib is before red card, Yorick is too slow for ante 7, Chicot makes me die to big blind and Perkeo... I dunno?

[formal crystal]

Yorick burglar lol

[modern kiln]

Chicot might make me go over Needle

Fuck it, yolo

[formal crystal]

I mean burglar should carry needle anyways

[formal crystal]

Nice

[modern kiln]

I think the run is probably dead

One hand is 18k

[formal crystal]

Probably

You need to find a uncommon xmult

[modern kiln]

If I skip the big blind I can beat the Needle due to Chicot + Burglar

(chicot gives you hands vs the needle right?)

[formal crystal]

Yeah

[modern kiln]

alright nice

[rare elm]

abandoned deck down too 🫡

[modern kiln]

There is, NO universe, right?

(boss is amber acorn)

I am imagining if there's a universe where I sell squared, take the family, double skip to the boss and then try to get 4oak + a stone to one shot

With 7 hands

[formal crystal]

You can

Chicot is also dead weight, so you can sell that

[modern kiln]

It's gold stake

Getting gold seal on a legendary sounds so good

[formal crystal]

Your choice then

[modern kiln]

Looking at it the 4oak play would not be enough to one shot the boss I feel

Card Sharp is probably the best thing I could have gotten

Did not draw enough stone cards. Rip Chicot o7

[formal crystal]

Rip

[spiral comet]

oof

big rip

[glass bay]

it just feels like its not contributing, but it is

theres no instant benefit like the other legendaries seem to provide

[spiral comet]

chicot does it’s job well tho

[frail bison]

chicot is such a good joker

instant 10 dollars

[jolly pawn]

i like chicot because it is unconditional

it just does the thing that it does and its cool for that

the legendaries having high sell value makes them still good to pick up for the extra money if you do get chicot at the wrong time

[quasi thistle]

instant 20 mult on ceremonial dagger

[subtle marlin]

Shortcut still works even though it's disabled

[frail bison]

Holy

[rare elm]

thats because of four fingers

4567

[subtle marlin]

I can't count lmao, thought the 2 would make it elligble

[subtle marlin]

just noticed Steam downloaded a small update, just a performance thing?

[rare elm]

some more goofy buffed chad shenanigans

1 glass card was enough to crush the vessel

it was a funny run, I started with hearts, but then had a funny choice in shop around ante 5? with eternal arrowhead and perishable bloodstone 😭

[rare elm]

love to see it

now we're talking

[faint rain]

"hey can i borrow your banana"

[rare elm]

ok that was closer than it should have been, but at least I confirmed that vagabond is a lot more risky than it seems

[long breach]

is it just me or charging full price for Perishable Jokers a bit unfair? :v

[rare elm]

probably just you

I think it's okay

[long breach]

I find it weird that an expired Joker still asks the full price whereas Rental is discounted

[rare elm]

rental is discounted because you pay for holding it

and it opens up some funny possibilities

like buying rental burglar and selling it after round start

[long breach]

so far the three stickers have pro & con that kinda balance it out:
-Eternal: Full price, permanent stuck. Can't sell, but immune to Ank / Hex.
-Rental: Cheap upfront, renting cost. Expensive in long run, but cheap upfront. Can be bought / sell immediately for 1-round effect.
-Perishable: Full price, gone after 5 rounds. Useless on scaling Joker, expensive for temp usage.

[rare elm]

That's correct, but it does not mean that perishable needs some sort of benefit

The benefit you mention for other 2 stickers is only interesting in some specific cases, which is generally just a side effect - like serpent boss is often more of a benefit rather than a challenge (play/discard 1, draw 3), but there's no other such boss. There does not need to be a "pattern" that every boss has some sort of benefit, the same way there does not need to be a pattern that every sticker has a benefit

if perishable were not purchasable for the full price, you'd also be losing sell value money if you pick one up from a buffoon pack

[fervent beacon]

I would rather buy perishable blueprint round 2 than rental honestly

Rental that early is almost always a loss

If you're keeping it

[long breach]

we're losing sell value from the discount voucher already lol.

The point is, if Perishable / Rental stickers are meant to make Gold hard-but-still-fun, there should still be a balance so that they don't act as "restart sign" (Previously this was already the issue, most run died past Ante 1 because there was literally nothing you could do to salvage it without perfect play from a second run). So far I don't see an actual upside to Perishable to counter its 5 rounds timer.

[solar oriole]

I'd like if perishable cost $1 less, and if you want to be stingy, it can sell for $1 less too

[fervent beacon]

$0 credit card

[rare elm]

oh how could I forget that in balatro you start every run with a discount voucher

Why does blue stake not have a fun factor

why is it only -1 discard

and red stake

[dull sphinx]

It’s funny but I actually think red stake is harder than green almost

cuz redstake stops Econ from rising quick. Like base difficulty has such easy econ and Econ is kinda crucial for a good start.

[long breach]

also let's not forget that Perishable's high rate (due to a bug) now

[dull sphinx]

wait it’s a bug?

are they supposed to be rarer? Lol

[long breach]

they are supposed to be 30% like others, but calculation bug causes the rate to jump up to 35%

I posted a discussion earlier

[rare elm]

I am still not convienced, if perishables' rate is a bug - it will be fixed, why do we need to take it into account whatsoever

[long breach]

again, the new stickers tag are supposed to make the game hard-but-still-fun, not "restart sign"

I can't really find an upside to a Perishable, as things are right now this is a pure punishment on Gold Stake

[tulip leaf]

it's better than old gold stake

[long breach]

better, but hasn't fully addressed the restart spam (yet)

[tulip leaf]

I haven't played much, but I think gold stake is fine for what it is

[long breach]

I'm not saying Gold stake isn't better, it just need a small tweak to make it less of RNG grind than it still is

[rare elm]

From my perspective, change of Orange stake from increased cost booster packs to Perishable jokers does implement "hard-but-still-fun", by removing the unfun part of being limited by booster packs. It does not need to add more fun as Perishable jokers concept feels pretty balanced on its own (once again, from my perspective).
On the contrary, the gold stake "Rental jokers" concept is very tough, and decreased cost part was added to make it more fun and less annoying. Once again, I don't feel like perishable jokers are forcing me to reset 99% of my runs, so I don't think they need an upside

For black stake, Eternal jokers' upside of Ankh, Hex and Madness is more of a side effect rather than an intentional thing to balance it out

[rare elm]

and I am saying this after finishing red, blue, green, magic, abandoned and checkered decks on new patch from purple to gold stakes

the only deck that is still super annoying would be the black deck

it needs removal of the -1 hand downside

[dim parcel]

In my view - I just finished C++ and I did about 60 of the stickers on beta branch, playing mostly on anaglyph and a bit on blue. I restart the first ante maybe only 20% of the time compared to old gold where it was genuinely like 60-70% or something.

Black deck is obviously still hold R spam but frankly that's not really a stake issue it's a black deck issue

Also - if I'm being honest currently gold stake is probably already a bit too easy. Reducing perishable to 30% is probably fine but also I wouldn't want the perishable effect to be less punishing.

I started out thinking you get way too few "clean jokers" but after playing more I see the vision

(tho disabled perishable jokers shouldnt charge rent pls thunk let the sticker farmers have this)

[rare elm]

I think it deserves to feel easy for me after putting so many hours into the game, for an average player it is still a challenge (I think)

[dim parcel]

Oh yeah absolutely, my point is that I don't think it needs to be tuned to be much easier

I like the current tuning a lot

[spare shuttle]

people really forget that changing it doesn't mean making it easier

it still has to be a tough challenge

it's just that now it's way more fun, at least for me

the previous punishment of -1 hand size and expensive packs really made the gameplay lean into one strategy

now at least you can basically do any strat and manage to win

[coarse fable]

This is my favorite part of the stake changes. I can reliably win on gold stake now with flush builds, 4oak or 5oak, really any build I want to play. It's no longer restricted to high card/pair

[mortal sedge]

I definitely agree that the previous penalties caused gameplay to bias heavily towards specific hand types by actively nerfing most of the higher scoring hand types (boosting the simpler hand types in viability, not to mention all the effects that had on their relevant jokers). Changing the stakes to focus on affecting jokers rather than hands is a great way to ensure that specific hand types aren't directly discouraged

[dire cape]

This is so overkill for X-Ray vision challenge lmao

Also, speaking of legendary, I got all gold stickers on legendary jokers today. The new mechanic of always giving you the ones that have no stickers is extremely helpful

[mortal sedge]

Straights in particular were... in dire straits, you could say. And, in my opinion, very much still are. Straights and their variant(s?) are probably the hardest hand type to make, because of their requirement for 5 different ranks. I'd say there's very little you can do to buff them beyond the effects of specific jokers (shortcut, four fingers). Hand size absolutely makes or breaks straights. With "x of a kind", you can still play fewer of them if you have to, and flushes can build up to 5 of a kind just by duping the same card multiple times, and substituting cards of the same rank if you don't have 5 of a kind yet. With straights, you need more consistency and more searching power... which is what benefits every hand anyway. You need hand size for both searching for cards, and for keeping cards in your hand while you search.

[manic canopy]

ok

perishables can go

[mortal sedge]

Kinda wish shortcut was an inherent mechanic for some deck

[manic canopy]

decrease the chance for perishables

because seeing this sticker literally EVERY single buffoon pack is not funny

[mortal sedge]

perishable sticker does feel strangely common

but honestly I don't mind it

[manic canopy]

its like what? 30%?

[mortal sedge]

roughly speaking yes

30% with an asterisk

[manic canopy]

yeah more like 100% in buffoon packs

[mortal sedge]

sure lol

ngl I kinda hate the fact that Nebula deck starts with -1 consumable slot and Telescope
Observatory is just so hampered by the -1 consumable slot, so the fact that it can theoretically appear right out the gate with this deck is just... unfun

like, no, you don't have to take it, and compared to Blank and Magic Trick, it is able to do SOMETHING, but... it doesn't bring joy to see it lol

[mortal sedge]

hot take: make shortcut a common

[manic canopy]

because of how common perishables feel i think pre-patch gold stake is slightly easier .-.

[tired canyon]

There are a couple times in experimental I rerolled and got the exact same cards

Anyone else?

It seems like that should be a very low probability event

[mortal sedge]

Update: I'm starting to hate Nebula deck altogether actually

[dim parcel]

It's weird because packs being cheaper and 8 hand size is a buff to nebula

BUT also nebula also can't use the best new planet gen (blue seals) very well

I really do think it would be perfectly fine with 2 consumable slots

[mortal sedge]

Other decks have a clear early game benefit. +1 hand, +1 discard, +10 money, only 2 suits, much thinner deck, +2 hand size, etc etc. If you think about each deck's gimmick as being balanced out by not having the gimmick that another deck has, then whatever gimmick you give it is already going to come with (metaphorically speaking) "1 free balance point" to spend on giving you the gimmick. If you give the deck a penalty, like Nebula deck's -1 consumable slot, then you have an extra balance point to spend. Is starting with Telescope worth two balance points? (dw the balance points metaphor is very sound, just humor the idea)

[hardy rock]

I think nebula is very strong post patch, better than average deck.

but maybe gold stake is just too easy hard to tell

[mortal sedge]

Telescope isn't useful in the early game at all, bc you need money early on (for interest and for life-sustaining jokers), and you probably don't have a defined deck plan yet
and being able to find Observatory without other requirements is pointless with only 1 consumable slot

[dim parcel]

I haven't played enough nebula to really say tbh

[hardy rock]

you just hard force flushes every game. With perishable in the mix having a strong base planet is very good. Also straights go nuclear if you're willing to play into them

[dim parcel]

I just hate the 1 consumable slot LOL

[mortal sedge]

Frankly I'm still on blue stake with Nebula

[hardy rock]

if you just play straight round 1-> level it up you're at like what 900 base points already? something nuts

[dim parcel]

Yeah

It probably is decent now and I just really hate having only 1 slot tbh

[mortal sedge]

counterargument: first shop now has a guaranteed buffoon pack, meaning you've only got one booster pack's chance of getting a celestial pack in first shop

[dim parcel]

Well yeah nebula doesn't help much very early

It pops off in midgame when you can just hit Saturn over and over

[hardy rock]

I'm pretty sure nebula has like the 4th highest winrate on all stakes, but maybe im wrong

[dim parcel]

Lvl 15-20 Saturn and some glass is enough to just win

[mortal sedge]

just gotta get enough straights to make it your most popular hand early on, given only 2 discards and no other help

[tulip leaf]

yea, nebula is definitely way better than last update

[mortal sedge]

hmm

aight, if I'm the odd one out then it's a skill issue

:P

[tulip leaf]

it's not the best, but like black deck exists

[dim parcel]

I think it's maybe like 5th or 6th best in gold?

In terms of consistency

[mortal sedge]

black deck definitely is worst for sure

[tulip leaf]

I wonder if black deck would be broken if it was just +1 joker slot

[dim parcel]

Probably yeah

[tulip leaf]

like it would be really strong, but plasma exists so it might be fine

idk tho

[mortal sedge]

well, it seems like painted deck trades 1 joker slot for an extra "balance point", so 1 joker slot == 1 hand size?

[dim parcel]

Plasma at least is awkward in gold stake

[mortal sedge]

if painted deck had 5 joker slots, would it only give +1 hand size? (answer: yes obviously, but that might not be so interesting)

[dim parcel]

That would be too strong

Paintbrush is almost certainly the best voucher so

[mortal sedge]

I do very much swear by paint brush

[dim parcel]

Well paintbrush and antimatter but anyway

[mortal sedge]

technically you need to take two vouchers for antimatter, so if you're doing any comparisons, it'd be antimatter vs palette

[hardy rock]

+1play vs +1 handsize are both debateable, +1 play is probably slightly better

[mortal sedge]

What if painted deck started with Paint Brush and 5 joker slots (and no innate hand size buff outside of Paint Brush)? The balance would come from the fact that it can only upgrade its hand size once, so lower skill ceiling

[dim parcel]

That's true, they're very close

I prefer hand size but +1 hand is obviously strong

Which is why blue deck is OP

[dim parcel]

This would be completely meaningless in 8 ante

And also completely meaningless in endless bc you'd never play it endless

(compared to just having +1 hand size at base)

[mortal sedge]

fair enough

[dim parcel]

Painted deck doesn't rly need to be touched, it's very interesting as is

[hardy rock]

Painted starting with the handsize voucher ala nebula would be cool i think

the way it is now has more of a unique feeling to it

but that would be more balanced, ie: make painted deck stronger

[mortal sedge]

would be a strict nerf if that's all that was changed about it

[hardy rock]

i dont think so

[dim parcel]

You mean like 5 joker slots and paintbrush?

[hardy rock]

you only need +1 handsize from base handsize for most poker hands

the other 2 aren't doing much

[dim parcel]

I like that painted has 4 joker slots I think it's cool

[hardy rock]

enabling you to keep 4 and discard all 5 with plays/discards is where the advantage from more handsize really comes in

[dim parcel]

Painted def got an indirect nerf from gold stake change

[spare shuttle]

painted deck is fire

with that sexy 10 hand size

def my go-to with straights

[astral kayak]

i’m more likely to hold R because of rentals rather than hold R because of perishables tbh

[astral kayak]

new nebula is prob just abusing straights to victory and building into that setup mayhaps?

because straights are the least tarot dependent and strongest planet to scale that’s relatively consistently achievable

while flushes benefit more from being able to spam wilds, suit changers, etc.

[dim parcel]

Facts honestly, a perishable summit is fine but rental summit is a slap in the face

[astral kayak]

ngl why DOES nebula exist because unless you think telescope is ultra premium it’s strictly worse than yellow

[tulip leaf]

because telescope is really good

and is definitely worth more than just its $10 price

yellow deck is also strong tho

[outer cypress]

Being guaranteed telescope is insane value. Its a bit of a trade off for shit like emperor being nerfed but /shrug

[astral kayak]

yeah, but yellow deck is twelve dollars minimum plus flexibility

telescope is good but i’m not gonna act like there’s a decent few vouchers would rather have tbh

[rare elm]

it used to be pretty OP when there were only 3 packs and celestial packs were in almost every shop

now nebula is pretty eh

anyways, zodiac deck down

[fervent beacon]

Grabber

Why did it scroll so far up

I remember I suggested a deck that had +1 hand size as its bonus and everyone said it would be too weak

Back in the demo

[coarse fable]

No idea why red deck took me so long to gold stake, but it's finally done. Only nebula and painted left

[sonic furnace]

i also got my red deck gold today as well

[dull sphinx]

red deck was my first ever gold stake win the other day. anaglyph was my 2nd the other day. getting close with spectral now too.

[autumn quiver]

my first was ghost (spectral thingy you said), my second was plasma
yea, plasma was extremely tough because I got Vessel lol
thanks to having a calculator I managed to get away with Photograph bp bs + red seal glass Jack, instead of Arrowhead bp bs + spade flush with 2 red seal cards

yea, I never thought I would have both bp and bs get gold sticker in the same run

[glass bay]

probably been said before but it would be really nice if perishable didnt appear on jokers from rare/poly/etc tags

it feels really bad to start on ante 1, get poly tag, then immediately get a poly perishable and have to reset

[tulip leaf]

I think that's a large part of why those tags got buffed

[rare elm]

^

[hardy rock]

if they did that, you'd ALWAYS skip for those tags, and remove the entire point of those stakes

If they were to do something like that, they should remove the 0 cost

In my opinion though your effects on jokers should work when disabled. The perishable should only apply to the effect of the joker itself. Everyones happy, though maybe even that is too much of a buff

[long breach]

I did say it earlier, Perishable could use tweak to make it challenging but still fun to take lol

otherwise it'll act as restart sign all over again

[spare shuttle]

played some gold stakes today again

and i still dont get the argument of the new stakes being too hard/rng/R button fiesta

[long breach]

if anyone wanna post a 90% win rate on Black Deck, I'm all ears

otherwise no one wants to brute force past Ante 1 when all you're given are perisable Jimbo + rental credit card or the likes

[rare elm]

oh no this is so sad 😭

I;d drop bloodstone prob if it wasn't eternal

[thick rock]

I haven't really had many issues with perishable, been enjoying the need to swap my build on the fly (apart from perishable scalers, those hurt)
rental's a bit more mixed, a little hard to take early game

[long breach]

truth is, some deck are really RNG heavy and you just won't get far without perfect play, which doesn't happen on unseeded run

that's why people are complaining, because naturally some seed is winable with optimal play, while most doesn't

[dull sphinx]

won a crazy gold stake run. got holo blueprint + brainstorm + triboulet + glass red seal queen. probably could have went to moon but died to face card boss blind.

3rd ever gold stake win. its funny how u can become so op some runs and just trivalize everything lol

[spare shuttle]

brute forcing without guaranteed buffon pack and with 7 hand size 🙃

[long breach]

One you can give up early. The other drags you through 3 antes and waste even more time

[modern kiln]

Cloud 9 my beloved

💞

Over 50 rerolls and not a single negative in gold stake 💧

[thick rock]

I ONLY get negatives in gold stake when I'm extremely poor or about to lose

[mortal sedge]

I feel somewhat validated about this now after watching BU's latest run where he plays gold stake nebula deck

he gives his thoughts on the deck at the end of the video

[astral kayak]

why is 90% wr on the worst deck the standard for not being an "rng fiesta" lmao

[long breach]

Do WR attempts lists re-recorded count?

[astral kayak]

???

[rare elm]

I also finished nebula deck on purple and orange stakes today, fully agree with struggling with xmult and enhancements, I was honestly surprised it was the case for him too with such a crazy start with Rebate Andy combo. Ante 6-7 struggle was so relatable

Also had a funny run when I only got 1 saturn from ante 3 shop, and first celestial pack was in ante 4

Nebula can be annoying like that 😭

[modern kiln]

https://discord.com/channels/1116389027176787968/1231381605772431400 I have posted my magnum opus regarding what I think gold stake should look like

[plain plover]

this has probably been reported already but perishable oops all 6s still works after disabling

[plain plover]

got my last gold sticker from that run lmao

[naive pebble]

am I going crazy? I swore there was a plasma deck nerf, but I can't find it anywhere

[fervent beacon]

how do people win streak gold lol

im trying to breat red deck again and I still can't get past ante 2 consistently at all

[fervent beacon]

yeah i just cannot get past ante 3 lol

[wide grove]

what skips are you using?

[fervent beacon]

none

[wide grove]

that might be an issue

[fervent beacon]

like what do I do in this situation lol

[tulip leaf]

I probably open spectral

[wide grove]

ehhhh i don't open spectral

too many things for owning a joker

[tulip leaf]

not sure if that's best for ws tho

[wide grove]

ecto, hex, etc

i skip SB a lot Ante 1

[fervent beacon]

I'm trying to beat single runs consistently at this point and I'm not even close

[wide grove]

you're not going to beat gold "consistently"

the beta branch boils down to - you need good economy for rerolls

bc only 28% of time do you pull stickerless

so not using ur skips is usually a mistake

red deck doesn't give u more econ like blue deck since discards don't pay

[astral kayak]

crack celestial go next is best for wr

[fervent beacon]

I'm not particularly interested in win streaking myself I'm just wondering how people do it

[raven vapor]

by playing an actual good deck (read: blue/yellow)

[astral kayak]

i think being really good at deck manip is usually the difference

[raven vapor]

winstreaking is about surviving shit seeds not how well you can highroll

[wide grove]

winstreaking gold is particularly painful

[astral kayak]

read: erratic deck

ong

[wide grove]

the reason they are saying blue/yellow is bc of the econ

red is not helpful for econ

erratic is fun bc u play the distro u get

[raven vapor]

erratic doesn't help in the sense that the moment you get no jokers for 3 shops you die to ante 2 sb

blue deck can sometimes force out 1k score with nothing and that alone makes it the most consistent deck imo

[astral kayak]

maybe my erratic seeds are really good but i think starting out w a manipulated deck is actually strong

but idk, im still climbing and its my fastest climb yet i think (?)

but im also doing the other harder ones rn so might be a bad comparison

[raven vapor]

i played erratic deck without ever checking what deck i got dealt because it just never mattered lol
high card/pair go brr

[astral kayak]

thats crazy

[fervent beacon]

i'm going straights, I can't not do this right

fuck if its optimal

[wide grove]

sure? do you have any blue seals or saturns

[fervent beacon]

yeah i got like level 3

[wide grove]

that's good for now then def

red card 🤢

[astral kayak]

its just correct yeah

[fervent beacon]

ok straights are level 7

[fervent beacon]

it's +24 now

[wide grove]

seems like this one is ok then? 😛

[fervent beacon]

hey I beat it with straights

[wide grove]

🔥

[long breach]

everyone: Perishable ain't bad
me on Ante 2: screw off =))

[faint rain]

Oops! All Perishables™️

[autumn quiver]

that could be a challenge tho
same for rental jokers

we do need some tweaks instead of just the plain Non-perishable format

[dire cape]

2 3 4 of a kind

[long breach]

fully agree on that. High rate + full price Perishable as of now isn't very fun

[fervent beacon]

OK but like it's supposed to be hard

I think people want stuff like that to be changed without thinking about how that changes the difficulty

I do kind of agree, I think it should be one or the other with perishable or rental

I think keep perishable and add "rerolls cost $1 more"

But that might be too easy, idk

[long breach]

having been through the old Gold Stake hell, I'm fully aware of the issue. The problem is Perishable needs a bit more balance, because it's obvious that it isn't very fun when you go through several shops with nothing but Perishable.

The old Gold Stake was pretty much restarting grind until you get a good 1st Joker. New patch guarantees a 1st Joker, but adding stickers on top of it also makes players wanna restart, as it now kills most of the scaling Jokers with no way to remedy it. Tags are now a huge trap, as the enhanced Jokers is half the time temporary.

In short, we're now given the choice to proceed just a bit longer before the run is dead, either by having no Joker to keep up with the scaling score, or staying in debt for too long. That wastes even more time than restarting 1st shop.

[spare shuttle]

i wouldn't call it waste of more time

[long breach]

also, I've been expermenting on "forcing win" via save editing recently

[spare shuttle]

just because your run wasn't strong enough to win

[long breach]

and the gold stake proves that it's 90% of the time impossible

[fervent beacon]

What?

[dire cape]

growth jokers isnt the only way to win tho

[dire cape]

case in point

deck manip and planets are all growth without jokers

and there are many jokers that have big enough numbers for growth to not matter

the hit on growth jokers is pretty much needed for other ways around the issue to truly shine

[long breach]

aka playing unseeded as seeded

[rare elm]

Just because you can't do it, does not mean other people can't. Also why do you need to do save editing in order to play stakes seeded?.. You can't do a normal seeded run on the gold stake?

also 90% implies you did at least 10 runs yeah?

I'd like to know the seeds

Tho if it was black deck, I'd understand, mostly because black deck needs rework. It's not stakes issue imo

[dull sphinx]

now thats the real family

[long breach]

I did say Black Deck before lol

let's just drop the stickers issue here since Discord playtesters can only give so much feedback

one suggestion I'd give to balance Black Deck is "Start with Jimbo". It can partially remedy the -1 hand penalty:

1. With optimal play, the +4 mult starting can help get through early ante in 1 hand, minimizing the -$3 loss compared to other decks
2. Can be sold for $1 so expensive Joker shop-1 can still be purchased if won in 1 hand

[rare elm]

Maybe

kind of like the five card draw challenge

which is just a better black deck

[fervent beacon]

I think that's too much to put in the description though

Or it would just be awkward

[long breach]

Green Deck has 3 description line. Wouldn't be too much for Black to have the same

[fervent beacon]

+1 joker slots
-1 hand per round
Start with Joker

I guess it works

[fleet thorn]

i always think that it would make early game way too powerful

but idk, yellow deck exists

[long breach]

tell that to Plasma Deck lol

[fervent beacon]

Maybe

I think you could so something else entirely with black deck

[long breach]

Black Deck's penalty is a huge kneecap because you can't really get your run started without a good Joker

[fleet thorn]

yeah but plasma deck is a unique thing, the blind size requirement or scaling could be adjusted, just adding jimbo feels like a bandaid

Jimbo alone will get you through the first couple antes and guarantee at least usable early economy which is more than can be said for a number of decks

[long breach]

You still need good draw to 1 hand win. Even then, you already gave up $3 first 3 rounds

[fleet thorn]

idk maybe it could work and im just talking out my ass

[fervent beacon]

I was thinking maybe black deck instead of -1 hand per round could nerf booster packs in some way

[fleet thorn]

it's more like $1 because you ain't winning big blind or boss blind with one hand without jimbo and with you defo are

[fervent beacon]

You could port old orange stake but I don't like that since it makes endless on lower stakes with black deck very bad

[long breach]

let's just consider it this way

every other deck can get you up to intereset cap quickly

Black Deck cannot because you lose $ in early games

so you either try to go Jokerless to build econ, or get Jokers and be down on econ until a hard boss kill your run

higher stake = nightmare++ due to all the new stickers

[fleet thorn]

yeah but how would jimbo be an appropriate buff

that's what im confused about

[fervent beacon]

manacle next, do I buy constellation for the future?

[long breach]

1. With optimal play, it'll allow you to 1 hand win early ante. You still earn less, but can go through first Ante without buying anything, so you'll start Ante 2 with good econ.
2. Can be sold for $1, so if you encounter $7 Joker in 1st shop, you can grab it. Other deck simply allows this by default (provided 1-hand win)

[fervent beacon]

took nothing and died lol

man I had a good straights run going

[rare elm]

nice timing

the only thing that might kill this run is the bell

and myself

nevermind, luchador gets a sticker now

4 decks left 🫡

[fervent beacon]

god i like 3oak/full houses but I'm struggling with how to pivot into them

[long breach]

Egg: I pay for myself

[solar oriole]

Forced saving really

[fervent beacon]

ive been trying for so long to get another gold stake win what is wrong with me. I've literally already done this

[thick rock]

the cognitohazard that is this game consumes another

I've gold staked red deck like 3 times since experimental released and idk why

[fervent beacon]

switching to painted

[fervent beacon]

and almost won shortly after

[fervent beacon]

ok now i have to realize i cant really force builds like this lol

and i lost a good 4oak run which was pretty fun

well the run was fun, losing it was not

[hardy rock]

I decided to play black deck gold stake for fun to see how hard it really is on the new patch. Took like maybe an hour to beat. The perishables barely hurt you if you play around them and the rental fee can be offset by skip tags, which you're forced on relying on in black deck anyhow. I got a bit lucky for sure but i think it's way easier than before.

[rare elm]

I hate to be the guy to bring it up, but I wonder what thunk's been cooking, been 2 weeks now since experimental dropped
I feel like there's still some issues with steam deck or he's gathering more feedback on the stake changes

[south pendant]

from a dev stand point, id bet focus on performance for the deck and other consoles and reaching more users by allowing for more motion sickness controls. probably only a couple game mech changes aside from increasing userbase as the main focus

[modern kiln]

There's probably other stuff other than balance changes to be done for the update - stuff like new challages, achievements, more bugfixes / settings, etc, stuff that doesn't require mass playtesting to get right

The vast majority of experimental changes were balance changes, alongside a few bug fixes and the emergency background turn off, after all.

[granite helm]

The dude also just has his own life outside of dev

2 weeks isn’t long at all

[south pendant]

based on his responses/interests in this thread specifically. he tends to focus and comment most on things that matter most for the populus, like motion sickness/compatibility

and yes also 2 weeks isnt long

and i sure as shit would be having my own life too if i just made 3 million dollars almost overnight lol

if only he would hire me to help D;

[rare elm]

I only brought up 2 weeks because

That's why I'm thinking there's more stuff or something

[south pendant]

ahh thats a good point. i totally forgot about that tidbit when it came out because i was too excited and distracted by the patch notes lol

Coming Soon ™️ is the release date for my game on Steam lmao

and its been two year 😦

[rare elm]

I don't think new challenges/achievements will be a thing unless they were already a part of experimental or specifically announced that there's more to this update

also challenges is something I expect being playtested, lol

[south pendant]

i agree, chall and acheives are definitely low on priority list

[rare elm]

And I only bring it up because my friends keep asking me it every day 😭

[south pendant]

lol unfort. is that how the joker role came to exist? early alpha testers so they think you have more of an inside scoop?

[rare elm]

nah, they aren't even on this discord

some jokers were testers (you can see in credits), but I got the role for being active on discord basically

[south pendant]

ah i see. testers are definitely worthy of credits for single person dev. thank you for your service o7

[rare elm]

I wasn't tester 😭

[south pendant]

oh so you're just super cool

thats cool 😎

[rare elm]

also to not confuse, they already had joker role when they became testers (as far as I know)

[south pendant]

no worries, i was just curious about it lol

im gonna make a new game this weekend. got it all churning up in the brain. you can test it for me lol

[hardy rock]

I'm guessing at this point either something major is happening, or we're waiting on 1.01 to be all platforms at the same time.

[south pendant]

i wont say more here, i feel this is a bit off topic.. but more on topic --- i got to the last boss on my penultimate ante and was destroyed by the wall

[rare elm]

#🃏・off-topic

yeah

[south pendant]

yipppeee -_-

[rare elm]

Oh yeah, that could be the case

[hardy rock]

perhaps related to the perfomance issues at the beggining

[rare elm]

though there's still a bunch of issues that arent fixed on public experimental, so I am not sure

like with (some) perishables still working after expiring and such

[hardy rock]

(though personally 1.01 is way better than 1.00 performance wise)

[south pendant]

which console? i havent seen a change on PC

[quasi thistle]

huge change for my lower end pc

[south pendant]

its always run well for me

[quasi thistle]

1.0.1 runs significantly better

[south pendant]

there was one exception where tabbing in and out caused a lot of built up lag (almost like a memory leak) until i went back to main menu in 1.0.0

i dont have an exceptional pc build, just a 3yo gaming laptop

hardware is outdated as soon as you buy it lol

[hardy rock]

I have a very good gaming pc and on 1.00 it would randomly start lagging sporadically for a bit here and there, especially during longer sessions. 1.01 the problems completely gone

[south pendant]

i agree that after the update i havent experienced any lag/low framing even when tabbing (and im not sure that was the cause, but it was just a guess)

[wide badger]

Is the patch officially out yet or still in beta?

[rare elm]

still in beta

[wide badger]

👍🏼 cheers

[spare shuttle]

that's what I've been wondering too

hope the live update is coming very soon

[long breach]

Several changes already affected challenges I believe, such as Vampire nerf (Bram)

[rare elm]

"New challenges"

[fleet thorn]

Why doesn't black deck just decrease discards by 1

Seriously why hasn't this been trialled yet am I truly tarot number 0 here or what

[spiral comet]

black deck with 1 discards at gold stake is brutally harder for bigger hand types

[fleet thorn]

Yeah but it's objectively less painful than -1 hand

Not by much but it's something

[spiral comet]

id argue subjectivity

many things to factor

like banner being absolute trash as an niche example

[fleet thorn]

Ok there's like, a few jokers and a single boss blind, every other time it's way better

[spiral comet]

i forgot why others argued why -1 discard is worse

[rare elm]

2 boss blinds

[spiral comet]

needle?

[rare elm]

Mouth and needle

[fleet thorn]

true

And I guess kinda the eye

Black deck is in a strange spot

And it would encourage very uhhh lobotomy ahh strategies with the extra joker

[solar oriole]

Someone else suggested giving Black deck a free -1 Ante voucher (I forgot what that voucher is called) to start. It would still have -1 hand size from the voucher, but players would have a little more time to ramp up and use that extra joker slot.

[jade horizon]

That makes Black Deck too easy IMO

Black Deck is already in a weird spot, the only real way to fix it is to scrap the current idea and replace it with something new, or just never fix it

[lament mortar]

The decks gimmick being that it starts on ante 0 would be really cool

[spare shuttle]

deck starting on ante 0 sounds like better yellow deck

since clearing ante 0 is very free

so you can stack econ

and basically be like yellow deck, but with more shops

but i guess -1 hand? unless it starts ante 0 not due to voucher

[elder blaze]

I just had this happen to me

[plain plover]

black deck should start with hieroglyph and petroglyph, for no reason other than i want to see what ante -1 looks like

[faint rain]

small blind: 10

[burnt lichen]

hmmmmh
(i don't even have -$5 lmao)

[plain plover]

well it rounds down so that makes sense

if you're at -$1-4

[fleet thorn]

Yea

[floral cedar]

tbf magic deck is just better yellow deck

[fleet thorn]

Black makes me think of being in the black, maybe focus some economy based debuff that isn't -1 hand idek

[lone walrus]

finally tried playing the beta is the new bloodstone planning on staying its awesome lmfao

[tiny grail]

if you have negative money do bootstraps and bull actually make you lose mult/chips?

[spare shuttle]

way too many tags

[hardy rock]

I just watched this thing lose me 3$

WTF????

that needs to be changed

my freaking polychrome won't work when disabled but it will still bleed me 3$? doesn't add up

[plain plover]

i mean negative still works too

not that it does much

[south pendant]

just sell it. i think its working as intended

[stone warren]

really? I grinded gold stake pretty hard and haven't seen that bug once

[tulip leaf]

it's only specific aura effects

or is it all aura effects?

[dull sphinx]

i mean there are a few perishables that still have effects

abstract and i think swashbuckler still work off disabled jokers

[tulip leaf]

yea, but there are some jokers that just work while disabled

[stone warren]

that's intended no?

[stone warren]

those jokers are still there

[tulip leaf]

like to the moon will still give extra interest

[stone warren]

oh

[dull sphinx]

can blueprint or brainstorm copy disabled jokers

[hardy rock]

got slightly unlucky, should have been a second win 😿

[stone warren]

no

[stone warren]

damn rip

[hardy rock]

i think black deck is like a win an hour~ hour 30

[tulip leaf]

none of the jokers that work through disabled are compatible

[dull sphinx]

fair enough

[hardy rock]

doesn't need to be changed, its fine as it is

[dull sphinx]

i think +1 joker slot isnt so bad if u can get past early game, but imma still not use it for now lol

[stone warren]

ofc it isn't bad

[dull sphinx]

+1 is great for late late

[stone warren]

+1 joker slot is huge

but

the downside is a bit too much

[hardy rock]

its intended that polychrome gets disabled by the card becoming disabled, but rental doesn't? why?

[dull sphinx]

well yeah i mean if i wanted to play for endless, id just go plasma or ghost ofc

[hardy rock]

if thats the case, why can't we get perishable eternals?

it seems to me, it shouldn't be intended

[tulip leaf]

idk if it's intended

[dull sphinx]

perishable eternals are like bad eggs in pokemon lmao

[stone warren]

when michel destroyed itself you will still get deducted 3$

[dull sphinx]

get 1 joker and lose slot forever

[stone warren]

so yeah

[hardy rock]

Well, yah that's because the tag comes first

same thing with rental mr. bones

[south pendant]

because rental is not an ability of the joker

[hardy rock]

NEITHER IS POLYCHROME

[south pendant]

its an enhanced joker, so yeah kinda

[rare elm]

Juggler and troubadour are the ones I know for sure

It's the passive effects jokers (I think), so probably drunkard too?

[frail bison]

stuntman?

[rare elm]

Mayhaps

[stone warren]

maybe I just sell perishable jokers as soon as they are disabled so I haven't noticed

xd

I can understand why they are buggy

[still dune]

I feel like so many of my runs recently have converged into either bloodstone or lucky card stuff

and it works

There’s so many cards in the pool that help enable bloodstone

getting Oops All 6s is just really really good for so much stuff including the floor of actually getting off your wheels of fortune

[dire cape]

making luck based stuff consistent has a unique fun to it

[night basin]

Imo changing bloodstone to 2 in 5 would be perfect. Not too reliable but more than 1/3, and adding oops all 6s would make it 4/5 which is really good but not as OP as it is now

[hardy rock]

Maybe. It was pretty trash before, I think it'd probably be pretty trash after that change. Maybe not though. Hard to tell.

[rare elm]

changing to X1.5 would be better

imo

[hardy rock]

IDK if you can balance bloodstone it's either just got to be op like it is now or weak. I would rather op but idk maybe you guys dont like it.

The inconsistency is the worst part of the old bloodstone, defintely 1.5x would be the preferable of the two options

But i dont really see a world where you can take bloodstone and consistently win at 1.5x. At base flush you're talking 4->30 mult, which is 26 mult from 2 jokers. It does apply before steel but that's not great for requiring two specific uncommon jokers. IDK but yah i'd defintely prefer it to going back to rng stone

[night basin]

Just give it every heart card gives either 0.5x 2x or 3x chosen at random. Watch the world burn

[spare shuttle]

agree, just make it weaker than legendary triboulet or very hard to make use of idol

[maiden creek]

I have a question.
I cleared the gold stake on all decks in the beta version and fulfilled the achievement condition for "completionist+", but it's not being reflected.
Is this a beta specification, or is it a bug? Does anyone know?

[rare elm]

Did you play another run?

The achievement is bugged and you need to win another run (white stake works) for it to show up

[maiden creek]

I'll give it a try. Thank you!

[rare elm]

I had the same issue with win on black stake of difficulty, tho I didn't realise it at the time

I guess the achievement condition is checked before stake win is added or something

[maiden creek]

I managed to achieve it successfully.

[long breach]

why is everyone so hellbend on Bloodstone being OP lol, it's ONLY OP'd when it works in your favor
-Pretty much useless on base Flush value, only high roll can carry. Ancient Joker at x1.5 is guaranteed so at least you know what you're getting.
-Yes it's guarantee with Oops All 6 + broken on retrigger, but you're giving up 2 Joker slots for it. Pretty much the same with every other Joker out there (Like Ancient + Smeared)
-Limited to 2 Flush per default deck, needs a couple of Sun Tarrot to ensure consistent Flush build or Smeared Joker.
-Heart-dependent and therefore vulnerable against The Head.

[rare elm]

Flush builds are so hard to do, probably the hardest build in the game, yeah?

It's not like common suit jokers got nerfed

And onyx agate too

It only makes sense if bloodstone is leveled with them

Also ancient is X1.5 and a rare

[south pendant]

flushes were inherently better overall. which i think is why Saturn got buffed, and sinful and others were nerfed; there were so many jokers that support flushs

[rare elm]

It was sarcasm

[south pendant]

the first deck i hit gold with was checkered lol

[south pendant]

sorry didnt pick up on it lol, i didnt read everything

[rare elm]

All good

My point is, everyone already does flush builds, it's one of the easier ones to do. So saying that you need some sun tarots to use bloodstone is not a very compelling argument

[errant sun]

if you know what you're looking for the run kinda solves itself after you get the bloodstone
i have fun with it now (as opposed to live patch where i would hope and it never delivered) but can't deny that it borderline feels like cheating sometimes

is it actually the easiest mult spam to do now?

[rare elm]

Chad photo is pretty good too

The difference is x2 on average

[summer pine]

Ancient being 1.5x and rare while BS is 2x and uncommon is the critical inconsistency I feel

[plain plover]

yeah but bloodstone is a 1 in 2

for a 5 card flush ancient joker is better than bloodstone on average

[long breach]

Tell that to Rare Vampire vs. Uncommon Constellation lol

anyways

Flush's weakness is that you only get to play it 2 times per blind without modifiers, so you need absolutely heavy buff to carry. And boss blind that debuff an entire suit targets Flush specifically

again, I can't stress this enough: Bloodstone is OP'd when it WORKS, much like a lot of other Jokers

low roll, bad discards, lvl 1 Flush, etc.. can easily kill your run

[rare elm]

getting to play flush more than once consistently is already a strength

[rare elm]

vampire only got nerfed this patch and I disagree with it being rare 🤷

[fast plover]

I got a straight win with the only synergy joker being runner
First straight win in so long, it feels so hard to pull off without either shortcut or four fingers

Also i foolishly tried to use burnt joker to get straight level ups
Safe to say it wasn't worth it , got like one level in 6 rounds lol

[fervent beacon]

had such a good straight build but just... didnt draw a straight when I needed it

I had runner supernova card sharp

[rare elm]

trying to get 2 straights in a single round is near impossible consistently above blue stake

[fervent beacon]

yeah but see card sharp take card sharp

didnt really have anything else either

[rare elm]

on white stake I had this work tho

[fervent beacon]

low hand spam time ig

[fast plover]

Yea straights tend to be in "win in one hand" type builds, never seen a full fledged multiple hands build

[summer pine]

yeah only times I reach that point are when my deck is so heavily manipulated I'm also get straight flushes anyway

[plain plover]

the real inconsistency is hologram x0.25 vs constellation x0.1

hologram is so busted

[long breach]

With 2 Discard and up to 3 hands per game (on higher stake), we can only see 25 cards out of 52. Unless you're extremely lucky, getting 2 Heart Flush in a default deck is unlikely

[rare elm]

at least 2 times I had like 45 or 47 cards deck and a bonkers jokers setup for straights build but died because couldn't draw a straight (one time it was because of hieroglyph, and another because I discarded one of the queens and couldnt draw one of the 3 left 😭)

[long breach]

-Hologram needs either Marble or Certificate to scale for free. Constellation needs blue seal and digging
-Adding card to deck means bloating, harder to find enhanced cards. Planets simply increase hand level, hence lower scaling

[rare elm]

You don't need 2 flushes early on. By the time bloodstone underperforming matters you can have deck manipulated for more than 2 flushes

[long breach]

As I said, this is only when it works. You aren't going to make it past Ante 4 with only Bloodstone

[rare elm]

obviously, but you can with 2 bloodstones (or 1 retrigger)

[long breach]

for the love of...

why do people keep bringing buffed stuff to the table lol

we're talking about each Joker as a standalone version aren't we

[plain plover]

bloating the deck is a fairly low cost, I'd argue all of these things make hologram and constellation pretty comparable

[rare elm]

I think of jokers average potential in an average run

[long breach]

great

[rare elm]

the only run I lost with bloodstone was because I didn't get a copy or a retrigger

and every other time I was able to find something to help it and win

easily

[long breach]

^ that just meant you're lucked into the right seed more often

[modern kiln]

That's unhelpful and not really realistic

[rare elm]

lucked 4+ times?

surely

[long breach]

did you count all the time you have a full Heart deck but no Bloodstone?

[modern kiln]

That's a horrible mindset and speaks more of where you are in the game right now than about Bloodstone

[long breach]

surely

[rare elm]

I don't "aim" for bloodstone starting ante 1

[long breach]

so what mindset do I have to carry lol

[rare elm]

my main playstyle is straights

[long breach]

always assume a Joker with the best possible support?

[rare elm]

but if I get bloodstone ante 1-3

I'll be able to make it work

and ante 4+ it's still helpful, even if I commit to straights

[modern kiln]

No, rerolling more. It's a frequent mistake that people don't reroll enough; it means you get to support your jokers a lot more

[long breach]

seriously...

let's just say you get Bloodstone Ante 1, but then you're unable to 1 shot with 2 Discard, so you spend more hands digging for Heart

[modern kiln]

It has a common synergy with Hanging Chad, multiple uncommon ones with Seltzer, Sock and Buskin, Hack, etc. Oops! is also a uncommon. Finding a way of retriggering it or otherwise supporting it is rather common

[long breach]

by the time you're in Ante 2-3 your econ's so bad you can't even afford Booster Pack

how is that helping with rerolling lol

[modern kiln]

You don't need to win with bloodstone ante 1; there's a world where you just play one heart flush + a full house or similar to win

If you get an early bloodstone then get like an Abstract or Swash or w/e joker to carry you on the midgame to build your eco

[rare elm]

or you can play some other hand, with 2 hearts on average it could give X2 once

[modern kiln]

You don't need Bloodstone as your main way of scoring, you can let it sit for a few antes

[rare elm]

^

usually some bland +mult

even droll works as a backup

[long breach]

that's the same as "take Erosion, you'll find Immolate later and score big"

[rare elm]

chances of finding immolate VS chances of finding the sun

[modern kiln]

I mean, take Erosion and look for hanged men is a very viable line in a lot of situations

[rare elm]

fair comparison

I already always look for hanged man, but I never take erosion at +0 mult

mostly a dead weight

[long breach]

I said it earlier, we can find reason to nerf so many Joker just because they combo with others

so I was trying to look at Bloodstone on its own at least for early games

[rare elm]

okay

[long breach]

every single thing that makes it OP requires heavy investment

[foggy mantle]

I disagree that bloodstone is op rn, but this is a flawed argument

[rare elm]

do you look at droll joker in late game?

[long breach]

which to be fair most other Jokers require you to

[rare elm]

like, we already explained, bloodstone is mid to late game joker

and you're bringing up early game

[modern kiln]

That's a really bad way of looking at a joker, specially like Bloodstone

[rare elm]

so is droll joker good late game?

+10 mult is so bad, do we need to buff it maybe?

[long breach]

when you have nothing but perishable, yes

[foggy mantle]

???

[long breach]

I've had a few runs with nothing but perishable in the shop well into Ante 4-5

it's ridiculous

[fervent beacon]

I would like to formally apologize to straights (the poker hand not the sexuality)

[rare elm]

lol

abandoned deck tho

[modern kiln]

🔥

[foggy mantle]

I love abandoned deck

[rare elm]

same

but not much of a challenge to make straights work

😹

[fervent beacon]

luchador gold sticker

im not going for C++ but that's neat

[vagrant rivet]

I beat my final gold stake in the beta but didn't realize achievements were disabled. I switched back to the main build but can't get the achievement to trigger. Anyone know if there's a way for me to get that to happen?

[rare elm]

achievements are not disabled

[fervent beacon]

they are not disabled you just need to beat any run

[rare elm]

^ it's a known bug

[summer pine]

How did you feel before it was buffed?

[vagrant rivet]

Oh, even on white stake? Ok I'll try that, ty

[fervent beacon]

saturn changes are everything

[rare elm]

I always liked straights (the poker hand)

[summer pine]

lmao, important disclaimer

Also I think they're my favorite as well because they're weird

[fervent beacon]

ive always been a full house kinda guy (not the tv show) but straights are a nice change of pace (the poker hand)