now if you want to safely outspeed - it's still possible. theres several boosters that have base spd same or higher than eshir
#Cicros Help thread
peak dirge
main ones would be eshir, chilling, kabilla, and kroa
(eshir counts because you can use 28 lead and still have spd advantage)
these are a bit more advanced teams but they get more common as you get higher
peak dirge
its still a cleave that works the same way as any other you've seen before
you have a spd lead that doubles as support buffer or second dd, your booster, and then a nuker
chilling passive allows him to be the fastest monster in the game to outspeed anything
spd buff is basically a small atb boost even if there is no actual atb boost that comes with the skill
kind cosmos
I see
if that's the template, I can just slap a spd lead, a nuker and a booster
and if I need to kill something that's super fast I can try mihyang kroa beth
what about kabilla tho?
wide scaffold
I'm seeing many MST defs on my level
After searching around on discord i found this
Is this still legit?
peak dirge
best and easiest now is just praline
you can look through those for other options if you run out of double snipe comps
wide scaffold
praline cov +1 ?
peak dirge
double snipe comp from #1048719420870107227
ember foxBOT
jx9
wide scaffold
We came to the conclusion a month ago that there isnt a double snipe section ;p
peak dirge
spd lead
kind cosmos
What makes praline good in this case?
praline is superior
spd lead, high base spd, a fucking crit rate+atk buff that make you want to build your sniper on 70% crit rate
He's so good that I'd not even recommen you to play double snipe with no praline
peak dirge
uhhh in siege yes praline is preferable but the double snipe team is so strong it's definitely worth using the others in a wgb setting when you can only use praline once
also i consider adriana snipe comps to be double snipe as well
it's the same thing except the boost is just much smaller
inner oyster
double snipe comp from <#1048719420870107227>
We had a lot of issues with praline into MST btw for our players with less runes
It kinda feels awful without Bethony I think
I still don't praline it since I don't have bethony
peak dirge
We had a *lot* of issues with praline into MST btw for our players with less run...
is there an even better comp for players with worse runes?
also you can optimize double snipe a bit and not make it an "absolute fastest spd with things tuned to race" kind of deal
i understand that if you are a beginner trying to tune cov kahli to a +200 spd praline you will have trouble 1 shotting things
but this isn't necessary vs mst
inner oyster
i understand that if you are a beginner trying to tune cov kahli to a +200 spd p...
Oh that wasn't what we tuned to either - it was like 185-190
inner oyster
is there an even better comp for players with worse runes?
Probably only TQ to be honest
And obviously it isn't great
TWL was what we settled on but windy has been changed since for one
icaru ryan verd doesn't work
Too rune intensive
Also I feel like if you have bethony you just run bethony Kona eshir
wide scaffold
So if I dont have TQ or Beth my best option is praline double snipe
peak dirge
i would still recommend using praline snipe but use cov lead instead of praline lead
wide scaffold
Im not so sure about my highest swift sets tbh, feels like there is a chance for me to get outsped if im going cov lead
peak dirge
the chance of someone running shaina on their fastest swift set is just so low here
wide scaffold
If im using cov purely for double snipe these skillsups should be fine right
peak dirge
yes
queen burrow
?teshgbah
thin flame
queen burrow
mb sry
inner oyster
Honestly if you get swift shaina'd you just say yeah fair unlucky guys and go next
wide scaffold
I've ran double snipe now couple of times against my friends MST
I mostly win due to my 2a khali being able to be invis
This makes my prio Martina so she doesnt steal the buff lol
I dont know if i would win with another snipe instead of khali tho lol
Rune issue?
wide scaffold
So I snipe triana?
inner oyster
Its just my opinion
Almost everyone builds Triana on a fuckton of hp
I would 100% take tq over this, yes
wide scaffold
Yea i dont have TQ
inner oyster
Especially because newbs super undervalue
Def
Which is funny
Because here it actually works against praline
wide scaffold
So my other option was Ryan
inner oyster
Forget that
You don't have runes
Trust me
That comp is probably the best known MST counter without premiums
But it's out of reach for most players
inner oyster
I think I would rather Julie MST than praline it
That's how much I dislike praline
I would just use Julie lead
wide scaffold
kekw
inner oyster
wide scaffold
why not lushen
wide scaffold
i use gin teon
inner oyster
Doesn't work
Not consistently anyways
Triana lives and cuts
Shaina lives
S2 and you lose
I'm sure it's like 80% winrate or some shit
inner oyster
I don't have the same opinion as everyone else and that partially comes from having a LOT of perspective
Because I led a guild with people with shit runes for a long time
Praline I don't like
If you have bethony just Bethony eshir kona
Mirinae you can do if you don't give a fuck
You can TWL but again it's not great, especially post windy chance
Change
I would probably just Julie it with Julie lead
And if swift shaina our speeds bernard
All good we go next
Like I don't like julieing it but I dunno
I would probably TWL to be completely honest with you
wide scaffold
yea i'll play around some more see if i get something which feels good
inner oyster
Maybe this gives a little more perspective
We actually Julie'd scouted MST a bunch though
But you don't have to be that sweaty
inner oyster
Does that mean you lose
Sometimes it does
Sometimes it doesn't
Dont you have lcl
You can lcl once too
wide scaffold
What's that?
wide scaffold
Leah?
inner oyster
Yea
wide scaffold
Nope dont have her
inner oyster
But really does like
Does this actually make you auto lose
Because full will isn't necessarily auto lose by the way
It's still spooky
And we would scout it off will and then go Julie it
wide scaffold
Well my julie doesnt one shot, but then again i havent optimized her really i just take what runes i had on my kaki from my tiana galleon ao
wide scaffold
I just dont have her built and put on some runes from him
Should you not swap around damage dealer runes like that?
inner oyster
Should you not swap around damage dealer runes like that?
Kaki is built with no crate
Julie is built on cdmg
wide scaffold
omg thank u
i didnt read kakis passive
i have been running him on 100 cr
xdddd
wide scaffold
no reason to keep a dupe right
peak dirge
no
wide scaffold
I know i fucked up the Lead on this off
But would it be julie-able if i wasnt stupid
This one worked nicely too
I used tips i got by jx and ran raki on double snipe. Is the shren a good second pick?
inner oyster
I know i fucked up the Lead on this off
sure this defense sucks
inner oyster
this is really bad, we do not lushen these, lushening defs with triana is not a good idea. lushening defs with triana and carc is REALLY not a good idea.
inner oyster
I used tips i got by jx and ran raki on double snipe. Is the shren a good second...
this loses instantly to swift ophilia but i'm sure it's fine anyways
wide scaffold
this is really bad, we do not lushen these, lushening defs with triana is not a ...
I burned through the triana passive with lushens card
inner oyster
if this is properly runed and/or you glance you lose
wide scaffold
Would you double snipe that instead?
inner oyster
i'm gonna be honest i would probably not think hard about it and just TWL send it or malite lulu vigor
wide scaffold
3 losses
rune issue here?
Only killed Fire guy, they was on will/shield
I cooked up this bruiser team but chichlid landed def break on chacha and i lost when he died
I got outsped, i knew clara was a speed threat but thought with my lead dif that i would outspeed. guess i gotta hit giants more
inner oyster
rune issue here?
No you can't Julie this
wide scaffold
Why not? Even with good runes?
inner oyster
Tesa elucia Triana is the standard counter, it's not perfect but it's good. Hp HP HP -wind Triana. Sleep bastet and win
inner oyster
Why not? Even with good runes?
Odin can and will just bitch zap you to death
He's biggest threat
And you can't reliably eliminate him
Good chance you end up glancing and feeding him 5 stacks and then you lose from there
wide scaffold
I read this thread but i should have just used the tesa team ur right
Need to work on a dupe tesa
inner oyster
I would not Julie this if I'm looking to consistently win
inner oyster
I forget
It's been a minute
Let me try to remember
Oh duh
Kunite windy tetra
Still works great
Mihyang cichlid X
On 4*
Basically unconditionally (there are some exceptions. Notably misty is very dangerous) loses to kunite windy tetra when runed properly
wide scaffold
Ah thanks
I thought kinki and mihyang are biggest threat so i just bring chacha+2 wind
But didnt think of chclid def break
By the way I've got a kinki but im not sure where to use him for offs
wide scaffold
I got outsped, i knew clara was a speed threat but thought with my lead dif that...
For this team I did the math and with claras base speed being so high it's basically equal speed between teon and clara, i just got rune gapped
inner oyster
For this team I did the math and with claras base speed being so high it's basic...
Try again
Swift ethna
inner oyster
I thought kinki and mihyang are biggest threat so i just bring chacha+2 wind
This shit is garbage
Don't do it
If you're gapped you just loss
I know everyone and their grandma loves Triana into this
It's bad
Mihyang pieces through Triana gg
People love Triana chacha roid
But chacha gets sent to the shadow realm here
wide scaffold
Try again
Damn didnt know her base speed was that high
Realistically what base speed should I be safe to hit if i know they are a speed threat
peak dirge
Swift ethna
If you use mihyang then it’s ok. Swift ethna would either do s2 which does nothing or s3 mihyang which is safe too
inner oyster
If you use mihyang then it’s ok. Swift ethna would either do s2 which does nothi...
Are we not worried about Lushen dying here?
We could adjust bulk and add will
peak dirge
i dont think lushen dies to a single swift ethna s2
i guess if you use dova you can say that then you'd lose atk buff so that could be something to look out for but teon is safe
wide scaffold
I want to start taking Arena more serious this week and im not sure about this ad i currently use
Would something like Psam, clara, vigor, triana
Work better?
agile nacelle
Drop Poseidon and Riley for sure
If Clara is your best stripper option then definitely use her
wide scaffold
I've got amduat aswell
agile nacelle
You’re using psama lead either way so some of Clara’s value goes down
peak dirge
psama amduat vigor triana or clara vigor triana +1 (something else you have already runed well for siege def)
i dont like running psama clara together
wide scaffold
psama amduat vigor triana landed on this for this week
Can i safely hit leo if i've got galleon on will?
Sometimes leo hits my poseidon and i dont get the atk bar pushback in
peak dirge
with what team?
wide scaffold
Tiana, Poseidon, Galleon, Kaki
peak dirge
well the things you have to be worried about
is that pos and tiana dmg scale with spd so leo will greatly reduce their dmg
and if kaki moves before pos and doesn't kill stuff, theres a chance for nem to mess you up
but otherwise tiana boost is bigger than leo pushback
wide scaffold
?dotao doesnt mention speedtuning
ember foxBOT
Also known as just Haegang offense, this is a 2nd turn team that uses Haegang to protect your team against a fast stripper, and then utilizes dots to deal damage. Dots bypass damage reduction passives like those on Camilla and Byungchul. Example AD you would use this into is Vanessa Zen Cami Byung, and this can be also used in siege such as against Clara Sav Tesa.
Team building:
- Haegang - he's practically required, this team is not recommended at all without him. He protects your team against any strippers and is a stripper himself, and you need to strip immunity in order to apply dots. If you really want to force it you could use a support cleanser like Tetra, but that makes the team much worse and slower.
- +3 dotters - choose 3 from this list, it's ordered roughly from best to worst: Nora, Rica, Moogwang, 7R1X, Sath, Bloodya, Baretta, Magnus, Bellenus, Thrain. Note that fire is preferred since with 0 bonus crit they cannot crit Cami at all. Dotters with strippers are also super valuable as a backup to Haegang.
Runing considerations:
- Will is required on everyone for Haegang to work.
- Despair or Vio is strongly recommended for everyone. This is more similar to a bruiser comp than a cleave that's over in 1-2 turns.
- 286 speed tick. You need the speed so your monsters actually get a turn after being stripped and boosted by Haegang, but also to keep up with subsequent turns. 286 tick swift is better than 239 tick vio/despair. 239 tick swift is not acceptable.
- 85 acc and 0 bonus crit on everyone.
- After that, just as tanky as possible. Atk is not needed, all damage comes from dots.
When runed well this should be a super consistent AO that can hit most things besides Juno/Seimei. Triton and TL may also give you trouble since they can decrease your ATB more than Haegang will let you gain. Otherwise the biggest weakness is just that it's slow... and that's a huge weakness considering how important clear speed is for AO.
wide scaffold
Is it just Haegang>Dotters?
peak dirge
Yea with the dotters that strip moving before dotters that can’t strip
wide scaffold
Kunite windy tetra
I tried this
Your advice only applied for 4* and this was with tesa which i won but it def felt a bit shaky with the oblivion on my windy he could have died any moment it felt like
Also was this a good draft?
inner oyster
Your advice only applied for 4* and this was with tesa which i won but it def fe...
Tesa is completely different
wide scaffold
Yea i found that out ingame lol
peak dirge
malite and yeonhwa are better tanks for tesa
inner oyster
im having trouble with this
Kiki or nana
What have you guys tried
I think either way you can Hyanes Dark hom this but that's a one time solution
LCL is probably fine. I don't like bruisering thebae so it's kind of your choice of cleave
Keep in mind this is where you take advantage of scouting
Like check
Is Nora swift? Is Nora nem? Etc
People can change runes on defense but very unlikely, too much extra work
wide scaffold
I can post what worked later
we got it at last
i tried some nana comp but got fked they were on swift
inner oyster
I can post what worked later
Is it kiki or nana lol
I can't tell
X)
If it's kiki you just praline
peak dirge
dark khmun dmg isn't crazy
you can tank it
just use any bruiser comp, you know combinations of feng xing tesa cami tetra riley triana aaliyah vela whatever
inner oyster
just use any bruiser comp, you know combinations of feng xing tesa cami tetra ri...
Did he get nerfed or something
Back when I tried bruisering this in testing I got sent to the shadow realm with comps like this
Especially with the def break on s2
Oh but he's probably the only real damage here
Like maybe Nana is bruiser
Hmmm
When I tested before it was like Chandra Zen Thebae or Clara vigor thebae
peak dirge
for thebae to kill anything their team needs to use all skills correctly, land def breaks and brand, and he himself needs to proc
just need to make sure you use actual tanky units (units with dmg reduction passives somewhere)
inner oyster
This is good learning for me too actually
peak dirge
personally i would just find some way to cleave it but i think that's harder/more advanced here
inner oyster
Actually learning that it's the core + Thebae rather than thebae specifically
peak dirge
for example maybe meph kona + wind snipe like sonia eleni or odin
and of course theres those rta style cleaves
wide scaffold
Triton or minato here?
inner oyster
There's not really a proper swift threat with Minato is there
wide scaffold
I'm going to build KBO for my siege def for my guild, these are the outlines that we have:
Is there anything else I need to think of before building?
wide scaffold
Bump on this, Also For the DOT Siege/AO team what artis are good for Hae/Dotters
peak dirge
just show some planned builds
there's no special artis for dot team
if it has multi hit like magnus rica or trix, then you can use adds
can use acc artis on right side to get to 85
haegang obviously can use -wind
others probably -fire or -water
wide scaffold
Okay thanks
silent pond
wide scaffold
Im not sure if she's too squishy or not
I went for 286 since I will have Khmun on speed lead it feels like a "waste" not going for it
Something like this ingame
Will arti some acc for s1/s2
peak dirge
its fine, bastet isn't as important and will be targeted last anyway
if anything would be nice to get more acc on her though
wide scaffold
This is where my odin landed, my guild leader was also using a 0 acc odin, im not sure how big his s1 buff steal is
I went a bit on the tankier side since he would be the one to be targeted first
peak dirge
but it looks good
inner oyster
Can we get some ?statshare
wide scaffold
Can we get some `?statshare`
<:gurhs:1184963878468198512>
wide scaffold
thats not even considered tankier side
Ye if i had some decent runes i wouldnt use Slot 4 Crate
I'm thinking of building Khmun bruiser like Tesa
Would that be correct?
peak dirge
i'm not sure what you mean like tesa
khmun is a hp scaling bruiser
tesa is a regular atk and spd scaling bruiser
wide scaffold
Hm, what about crit?
peak dirge
you should have crit on both
wide scaffold
ok so hp scaling, crit and some acc for the debuff
peak dirge
dont worry about the acc
wide scaffold
On the other hand if I can afford to loose the offset I gain about 50k ehp
peak dirge
the hp is really low
wide scaffold
im considering going down to 239'
How do you know where to draw that line btw?
How much stats can you sacrifice to go for 286 vs staying at 239
peak dirge
you can go down to 239
wide scaffold
This way I can get Odin and bastet tankier aswell
wide scaffold
This is what I landed on
Bastet is missing some speed but im grinding r5 for 1 shield spd grind
For Khmun artis im not really sure do i just go for -water? and add dmg scaling on hp?
peak dirge
ohhh when i say drop down to 239 i meant just khmun and odin
bastet should still be faster
she's a booster anyway
odin looks fine although id see if i can trade off some cr for acc
khmun you still need more hp
trade def for hp
khmun can use -fire or +wind
most common counters will involve fire units like tesa
not water
also you need to skill up khmun
inner oyster
Do the tesa counter 
Max res odin
Nah don't I'm capping, I think that just trying to beat tesa elucia Triana with simple stuff like +wind high damage Odin can be an option
Is there any way we could drop the crate a bit and be on a cdmg build or is it just not possible
Because y'know defenses aren't supposed to always work
Id rather have an 80% crate Odin in cdmg with similar-ish stats
Than a 90 crate Odin that hits like a wimp
wide scaffold
she's a booster anyway
Oh I’ll fix that, do you know how much 15% atk bar is? Is it a full tick?
wide scaffold
Okay
wide scaffold
These are the most promising builds i could find
Second is 178 cdmg but i kinda waste some speed
First has some acc
Third is best dmg according to swop
peak dirge
you can do build 3 just because its highest efficiency overall
wide scaffold
Version 2
peak dirge
looks better
wide scaffold
I'll devilmon khmun and i think we are good here
inner oyster
ill fix it ty for noticing
Yw make sure you always test your defenses too
That's what I do, and I realize they are all garbage and trash them before they see the light of day after I find a simple counter to all of them
(skip part 2 of above step)
wide scaffold
ye---
wide scaffold
If I do an AoE Attack on a Nana team
And I kill 2 or more enemies
But not Nana
How is it determined on who gets revived?
Randomly?
Lowest HP?
shell dock
peak dirge
yes this is correct, its just leftmost that got killed at same time with the same attack (not hit). hp doesn't matter, doesn't even matter if there's multihits and different monsters die at different hits
this is same revive AI too
wide scaffold
Okay after reading a bit
It seems neph is just a better galleon
So if she replaces my galleon in my current tiana ao im left with: tiana neph kaki pos
What about adriana would she fit in there instead of a dd?
tulip orbit
So if she replaces my galleon in my current tiana ao im left with: tiana neph ka...
The good thing about neph is you can do multiple aos even with tiana. Neph tiana + kabi dd contests pure spd ads, and adriana + fat dd contests the slower ones. Also remember neph neuters fast ads because neph + kabi/tiana means you're going first so if you don't kill they're silenced + on swift so no procs
Tl;dr you have a gross amount of options now
wide scaffold
Tl;dr you have a gross amount of options now
What defs would you skip now?
Before i was skipping defs with speed lead but that seems to be hittable now with neph lead and kabi
tulip orbit
24 kabi with topset should reliably race everything that isn't lora ngl. Most ppl don't put topset on triton for ad. Neph also lets you ignore Vanessa with the silence lmao
tulip orbit
It seems neph is just a better galleon
This is such an understatement. She's a spd lead, irresistible def break, silence and the only thing that matters for her runes is what team you're running lol
Imagine if galleon could reliably land every hit
tulip orbit
What defs would you skip now?
I think neph can hit virtually everything ngl
The "neph = free g3" isn't a joke, she is the single best mon for ao fullstop not even close
tulip orbit
What defs would you skip now?
That said I'd skip Lora depending on your topset
That's about it
wide scaffold
That's about it
What's the benefit of running Adriana + fat dd instead of 2 dds?
tulip orbit
If you've got leah spd + atk buff leah will usually outdmg another unit lmao
The downside is the higher you go the more -light there is bc of leah/luci
wide scaffold
Yea no leah unfort
agile nacelle
The one thing galleon brings that neph doesn’t is attack buff, so Adriana gives that plus other useful buffs. Depending on the DDs you have available it may or may not be worth the spot on the team
wide scaffold
The one thing galleon brings that neph doesn’t is attack buff, so Adriana gives ...
I've got amber
Which seems very good
here
tulip orbit
this just goes back to the flexibility piece. Honestly neph/tiana +2 where the +2 is whatever you need is valid lol
Like if you're scared of psama you can do neph tiana mephisto dd
And it's probably good
wide scaffold
What about ad's like this
speed threat
Cami which is rough
is it just haegang / bomber angle or are there +2 that can make it work
tulip orbit
Hae dots
Easily clears that
You don't even need anything specific, just hae +3 here
wide scaffold
When following ?ad what position does Pontos fill?
He is a speed lead but do I put him as support instead of my triana?
peak dirge
?ad
ember foxBOT
The following is a generic template for building an arena defense that's applicable anywhere from conqueror to G3. The listed monsters are the best options in the game right now outside certain LD5s.
-
Speed lead: Vanessa, Psamathe, Clara, Halphas, Moore
-
AoE stripper: Triton, Clara, Nora, Juno, Zen, Byungchul, Amduat
-
Bruiser: Camilla, Savannah, Byungchul, Perna, Rakan
-
Support: Abellio, Triana, Manon, or simply another bruiser from the category above
If you don't have any of these premium options, common f2p siege def monsters can be used as well: Vigor, Eshir, Cichlid, Chilling, Iunu, Tesa, etc. Example complete f2p def would be Clara Vigor Triana Tesa.
Note that working on any sort of PvP is useless until you've completed finished PvE. If you are just trying to get to 1300 arena points for the Summoners Way mission, read ?arenamission.
When you are just starting to work on arena and aiming for conq ranks, you should be focusing 95% of your efforts on AO. You climb by improving your offense and being able to beat more defs, consistently, and faster. AD is mostly a deterrent to discourage players from hitting you in the first place, there's very little you can do to get def wins. And even then, people will always attack you no matter what. Your only option to get a higher rank is to win on offense faster than people attack your defense.
Feel free to ask for help and feedback by starting a post in #1047269577614164098 , but show that you've read this and have given it some thought and effort yourself first. What teams have you already tried? What teams do you think would be good to try?
peak dirge
yes
i mean you can still have both
as long as you have some aoe stripper and dmg between the last 2
wide scaffold
My losses this siege
With the Double snipe comp I got outsped, I could have put faster runes on my bastet but honestly didnt think that Jeanne would be so fast. My thought was to snipe theo with Raki with Antirevive and Snipe the Ela with Kahli Then 3v1. It ended up going to a 1v1 between Theo and Khali which I lost.
For the Tiana off I knew they were squishy and they didnt have any speed lead so I thought it was fine, turns out Kovarci was faster but it didnt matter since i stripped it anyways with tiana. I was winning but then After I killed the demon Theo killed my poseidon and the he revived which was there I lost
Def should have payed more attention to Beezlebub's passive before sending a tiana comp
river sinew
With no lead for the double snipe comp, you're actually racing negative into Jeanne with Bastet by 3.
peak dirge
no one is running swift jeanne though
how slow was that bastet is the real question
also wait i dont even understand how this comp is supposed to work
how are you expecting to snipe theo with raki?
raki is not a snipe unit
wide scaffold
I was following this from like 10 months ago
Here we talked about raki being viable into Ela + Theo comps but I must admit my Bastet was quite slow
peak dirge
ok but you need something else to actually do the damage to theo
raki just finishes theo off because she can bypass the endure
and also prevent theo from getting revived
plus i think 10 months ago or whenever that was
may have been pre-theo buff
you can't do this anymore either because theo gains atb when you trigger his passive