beta-ptr-spoilers

[dense plover]

microsoft has absorbed a shit ton of companies

[mossy meteor]

and not just in gaming

[dense plover]

bethesda, rare, now actiblizz

[rain cave]

yeah but if we look at the benefits of them getting blizzard

[dense plover]

this is not healthy for the industry

this is bad for the consumer

[rain cave]

there's so many potential positives for the consumer

being under microsoft

[mossy meteor]

eh

[dense plover]

name a single positive for the consumer that isnt kotick being gone

[rain cave]

now that microsoft are no longer the pure dickheads they used to be

potential for f2p

better treatment of employees

better content control

freedom to develop more

[dense plover]

dude - microsoft is almost definitely the reason Scalebound never happened, the reason Fable hasnt happened, etc

[mossy meteor]

ironically, Meta or Amazon buying ATVI would've been less monopolistic

[rain cave]

old microsoft

[dense plover]

SCALEBOUND WAS RECENT

[mossy meteor]

but these two are the devils

[rain cave]

new microsoft over past 3 or so years has been all about

[dense plover]

FABLE STUFF WAS RECENT

[sonic flame]

what happened to wow in recent years shows that, while it's true the lack of competition makes the game worse, there is a bottom limit people can handle before just quitting

[rain cave]

not really

[dense plover]

dude

dont be brainwashed

[rain cave]

scalebound is ancient history

lmao

[dense plover]

independent companies are better for the consumer

there literally is no case where a merger directly benefitted consumers

[rain cave]

microsoft is just a larger independent company

xd

[mossy meteor]

2017 isnt ancient history

[dense plover]

name an example of a merger helping people

just one

[rain cave]

this

[mossy meteor]

its 5 years

[dense plover]

IT HASNT HAPPENED

[rain cave]

5 years is a long time

[dense plover]

and kotick was likely on the way out anyway

he was unpopular with the board

[sonic flame]

this will be the first one

[tepid fiber]

uh oh are we going company make money bad mode?

[sonic flame]

because iin this case wow can't get worse

[rain cave]

and if you want to see positive merge, look at bethesda

bethesda games on game pass, and microsoft quality control

[mossy meteor]

game pass is a form of monopoly ]

[rain cave]

WoW on gamepass would be gamechanging

[dense plover]

starfield potentially isnt releasing on PS

[mossy meteor]

just like steam

[dense plover]

thats bad

[rain cave]

yeah ik

[dense plover]

what quality control?

[rain cave]

but they're only copying sony

[mossy meteor]

lol no

[rain cave]

sony is scummier than microsoft

[dense plover]

theyve been around for less than a year

[mossy meteor]

sony has their own IP

[rain cave]

sony are complete slime

[dense plover]

bethesda hasnt released anything for microsoft to influence yet

[rain cave]

all my homies hate sony

[mossy meteor]

MS is making (theoretically) someone else's IP an exclusive

[dense plover]

this

this is where the monopoly stuff comes in too

[rain cave]

wdym

t's their IP now

[dense plover]

THATS THE FUCKING POINT

[rain cave]

I don't agree with exclusivity

but like

if you want to point fingers

point them at sony for that

[dense plover]

the merger has made the stuff exclusive which means they force you to choose platforms

[rain cave]

because sony are the stroppy bastards of exclusivity

[dense plover]

sony didnt take existing games and move them to their own platform

[mossy meteor]

sony putting spiderman or HZD an exclusive isn't as big of a deal because it's their IP (Spider-man stuff is complicated but w/e)

[rain cave]

so microsoft doing it is bad

[dense plover]

they made games for their own platforms

[rain cave]

but sony doing it is good

gotcha

[dense plover]

microsoft is doing something different

[rain cave]

not really

[mossy meteor]

think of it this way

[dense plover]

yes really

[mossy meteor]

sony buys

let's say

EA

or 2k

[dense plover]

taking something that wasnt exclusive and making it exclusive is NOT the same as making something new only for your own customers - its vertical vs horizontal integration

theyre literally opposites

[mossy meteor]

and instead of those games staying multi platform

they take that IP and make it PS exclusive

[rain cave]

but they're already on other platforms

unless they literally remove them from sale

[mossy meteor]

the sequel wouldn't be

[rain cave]

and disable the servers

[mossy meteor]

;)

[rain cave]

that's their perogative

as you said

their IP

[dense plover]

it wasnt before the merger though

[rain cave]

I disagree with and don't support exclusivity

but like

you can do what you want with what you own

[dense plover]

then why support a merger thats going to result in exclusivity?

[rain cave]

because it won't?

[dense plover]

YES IT WILL

[rain cave]

maybe for 1 franchise

but I'm all for robbing sony of shit

because they've been slimes for years now

and getting a one up on them is entertaining

[mossy meteor]

give 1 example

of sony being a "slime"

[dense plover]

starfield, ES6, the next fallout game, and if the merger goes through with actiblizz, diablo 4, overwatch 2, etc

[rain cave]

keeping games console exclusive

in general

[mossy meteor]

God of War is exclusive?

[dense plover]

you do know xbox has been doing that just as long right?

[rain cave]

they released a mediocre game 4-5 years later to PC wow

[mossy meteor]

Horizon zero dawn, one of the best RPGs in the recent years isn't an exclusive

mediocre lol

[rain cave]

it's also 4-5 years old

I don't care about the games they're bringing

they're old news

[mossy meteor]

it was literally built for PC

[dense plover]

MICROSOFT OWNS WINDOWS ofc theyre going to directly release on their OWN platforms

[mossy meteor]

it wasn't just

[dense plover]

thats functional exclusivity

[mossy meteor]

convert code to PC

it was building from the ground up

[dense plover]

microsoft games arent on nintendo switch either

[rain cave]

sony should be co-releasing playstaion and PC

no reason not to

[rain cave]

actually they are

[mossy meteor]

with PC features including DLSS/RTX

[dense plover]

BECAUSE THEY DONT MAKE MONEY OFF OF WINDOWS

SONY DOESNT MAKE MONEY OFF WINDOWS

[rain cave]

and microsoft releases things on playstation to

[dense plover]

MICROSOFT DOES

[rain cave]

sony has no reason not to release on PC

end of

[dense plover]

yes they do - to sell hardware

[rain cave]

they could just make their own launcher if they care about steam's 30% cut

hardware isn't where the money ismade

[dense plover]

when people buy microsoft games or play on gamepass, theyre playing on windows

[rain cave]

not to mention PS5 shortages mate

[dense plover]

it is for sony actually

[mossy meteor]

LOL

[rain cave]

sony already gives money to microsoft

[mossy meteor]

xbox also had shortages

[rain cave]

their servers use microsoft azure

[mossy meteor]

and PS5 shortages has nothing to do with sony

look at the state of the world

[rain cave]

correct and look at their strategy

[dense plover]

oh you mean another thing that makes microsoft a monopoly?

[rain cave]

release cross platform

[mossy meteor]

covid shutting down semiconductor manufacturing for months

[dense plover]

"cross platform" - they own both platforms

we have a genius over here guys

[rain cave]

the best thing for sony to do is competetively co-exist not pretend other platforms don't exist to their own detriment

[dense plover]

microsoft isnt releasing on mac or linux

[mossy meteor]

keep in mind, turning off and turning on those machines isn't as easy as turning off/on your PC

[rain cave]

microsoft doesn't own PC

[dense plover]

theyre releasing on windows - its their own operating system

[mossy meteor]

yes they do

[rain cave]

that's just smooth brain

[mossy meteor]

they own windows

[rain cave]

yeah and?

[mossy meteor]

99% of the games are windows exclusive

[dense plover]

^^^^

[rain cave]

not true

steam proton is very good

[dense plover]

its the equivalent to releasing on their own platform because windows IS there platform

[mossy meteor]

how many games use it

[rain cave]

they don't have to

[mossy meteor]

hundreds maybe

[rain cave]

it can just work with most games

[dense plover]

and at any moment microsoft can make any game that happens to work with that, stop working with it

they can and in the case of windows store games, have, added checks to make sure the game only works on windows

[rain cave]

to their own detriment

yes

the best outcome for everyone is to have everything release multiplatform

sony included

[deep pawn]

so my guess is each spec will get a blessing from a flight. That's 36(MAYBE 39) spells compared to the current 48 they tried to balance across 36 specs.

[rain cave]

my guess is each class chooses from 1 of 2 dragonflights

[deep pawn]

no choices that are class based

that does not work

[rain cave]

why

[dense plover]

the choice stuff backfired in shadowlands

[rain cave]

hence why I said 2

[deep pawn]

It's impossible to balance abilities across multiple specs.

and multiple content types

[rain cave]

because the issue in shadowlands was quantity of choices that didn't line up

[dense plover]

if theres going to be choice stuff, its more likely to be like the cypher system

mainly focused on effecting the world and pve and such

[rain cave]

like imagine being incharge of warlock night fae

just give each class a choice of the 2 dragonflights that fit best

then you avoid the issue of quantity over quaity by only having abilities that fit well and get more design time

[dense plover]

thats the worst idea ive ever heard. limit the player choices? this is an rpg

[rain cave]

"choice is bad"
"limiting choice? that's bad"

[dense plover]

they cant make certain flights and stories class exclusive

[rain cave]

bro please

[deep pawn]

I'd rather have an ability designed from the ground up FOR my specs

[rain cave]

they can

[dense plover]

choice IS bad but limiting choice artificially is also bad

[rain cave]

it's called legion class halls

and people liked the legion class halls

so

[dense plover]

that was the entire point and you didnt have choice

[rain cave]

🤷‍♂️

yeah

so this is better!

you can choose

[deep pawn]

I loved artifacts and class halls

[dense plover]

there was no choice with class halls and the classes were balanced around having a fully decked out artifact

if there was choice, they wouldnt have been able to balance it

[rain cave]

covenants were a very cool concept

but as I said

[dense plover]

you literally dont understand why shadowlands was problematic

[rain cave]

the issue was some classes having bad thematic ties

[deep pawn]

artifacts took a while to fill up and knowledge was a bit annoying, but meh

[dense plover]

it wasnt about thematic ties

[rain cave]

like venthyr paladin

warlock night fae

shit like that

[deep pawn]

I had 0 issues with that. They made those work

[dense plover]

it was because choice for an ability/abilities (soulbinds) meant that one choice was superior

[rain cave]

if they want to do covenants 2.0, give 2 abilities to choose from

[dense plover]

THATS LITERALLY WORSE

[rain cave]

why

[deep pawn]

Warlocks tapped into the cycle of death, necrolord paladin was about fighting

[dense plover]

#beta-ptr-spoilers message

i literally said why

[rain cave]

venthyr paladin makes no sense

[rain cave]

oh no talent trees

this is always a thing in games like WoW

there will always be a "pick"

[dense plover]

the problem with shadowlands was that you had 4 choices, each with 3 soul binds and there was a best option for everything which meant people were forced to pick a best choice

[dense plover]

but expanding the amount of "pick" is BAD

[rain cave]

it's up to blizz to design things close enough or balanced differently

[rain cave]

ok?

but I reduced it?

[dense plover]

ah yes, just make it all homogenized, genius!

why didnt i think of that?

[rain cave]

4 pick -> 2pick

"stop adding pick"

???

very weird

[dense plover]

legion didnt have choice

thats part of what allowed them to try and balance it

[rain cave]

but people also like the choice

as a concept

it's why talents exist

[dense plover]

you had false choice with your artifact talents since at the end, you had all of them so it still felt good

[rain cave]

and covenants were an interesting idea

and essences

and azerite traits

[dense plover]

except essences were a bandaid and azerite traits felt terrible

[rain cave]

I loved some of the azerite traits

blaster master for example

or equilibirum

[dense plover]

essences had the same issue as covenants - there was a right choice for your spec and content, but at least you could change them before you went to do the content

[rain cave]

or you could come up with interesting alternative builds

[dense plover]

covenants you couldnt just change, it locked you in

[rain cave]

like how fire mage had mastery build in 8.3

or minute mage

with short cd

[dense plover]

i honestly expect what we got in 9.2 to be the core of the 10.0 power system - choices mainly effecting pve out in the world and ignoring instanced content

i think theyre more likely to give us another talent tier than to give us another temporary choice-based power

because talents can be changed at will, nearly

[rain cave]

I want a talent tree

like soulbinds

but expanded

soulbinds were a joy to theory craft with

same with the legendaries

and abilities

[deep pawn]

I am so tired of false choices

[rain cave]

I want more choice, they just have to balance it

[deep pawn]

Make a single kit that works well

[dense plover]

^

[rain cave]

then that's stale

and they should just remove talents according to that logic

add everything base

[dense plover]

no it isnt - the theorycrafting you are talking about with soulbinds didnt exist

[rain cave]

did for me

🤷‍♂️

[dense plover]

people found the best option and that was what you needed for group content or you got kicked out

[deep pawn]

talents are largely dead

[rain cave]

I've spend a good chunk of time in the shadowlands build planner

[dense plover]

talents themselves are a shitty system

[rain cave]

thinking of cool combos

I love talents

[dense plover]

theres a reason FFXIV literally doesnt have it

[rain cave]

yeah and ff14 is boring

[deep pawn]

To you

[dense plover]

it feels good to put points in stuff, but when theres only one good choice each tier, then why even have the choice?

[rain cave]

that's not a flaw of the system

that's a flaw of the balance team

and I like having different playstyle options

[dense plover]

or there are choices like with brewmaster where blackout combo makes the class more fun, but the boring extra brew button is the one you need for M+

why should fun be locked behind a choice instead of being baseline?

[deep pawn]

things could be 1 dps different and the hivemind WILL demand it

[rain cave]

if every spec is just the same

in terms of like

fire mage is the same for everyone

then that reduces class fantasy

[dense plover]

no it doesnt

[rain cave]

yes, it does

[dense plover]

it literally cements the fantasy

[rain cave]

because not every fire mage is the same

[dense plover]

it says "this is how a fire mage plays"

[rain cave]

but there isn't just 1 fire mage

[dense plover]

dude you are literally saying that class fantasy should be whatever you want

do you understand what class fantasy even means?

[rain cave]

within the specs scope

[dense plover]

its like you dont know what the definition of the terms you use ARE

[rain cave]

arcane mage can either mean control or volatility within the current talents

[uncut vault]

talents give diversity in theory, but in practice it comes out as just "you're playing this suboptimally"

[rain cave]

and both are true

for arcane mage

[uncut vault]

because they balance around the best builds anyways

[rain cave]

unless you want them to add a 4th spec

for volatile arcane

[dense plover]

why cant it have enough abilities to do both?

BLM in FFXIV has both ice and fire

and lightning

[rain cave]

because then you're clashing contradicting builds together into one playstyle

[dense plover]

BUT THEN YOU CREATE A CONCRETE CLASS FANTASY

[rain cave]

and even people who don't want to play the other have to engage with it

enhance shamans can stylize themselves as a multi-element lord or one that focuses more on lightning, frost, fire

[dense plover]

but if one of those "styles" does 10% more damage, what do you do?

[rain cave]

people like customization

[uncut vault]

customization like that can and should be a visual thing anyways

[rain cave]

I'd rather have talents and trees than a new skin for a class that plays the same regardless

[dense plover]

just because people want a thing or like a thing doesnt mean we should double or triple down on it

people are not game designers

[rain cave]

I am

lmao

[dense plover]

what game did you make?

[rain cave]

in uni atm

doing game design

[dense plover]

so - you arent a game designer

youre taking classes

[rain cave]

everyone's a game designer

[dense plover]

then whats your opinion on limiting choice? is limiting choice ever a good thing?

[rain cave]

because everyone has an opinion

[dense plover]

this is a simple answerable question with a correct answer

[rain cave]

limiting choice is bad

[dense plover]

wrong

[deep pawn]

Like you try playing Necrolord on any druid outside of resto in M+.

You will get told you're inting

[rain cave]

unless you're doing it for effect

[dense plover]

limiting choice BREEDS creativity - literally every game designer can tell you this

[rain cave]

like in a story

I am aware

[dense plover]

tabletop rpgs limit choice

[rain cave]

I am aware

but you're limiting choice is literally

removing choice

as opposed to having limited choices

it's a balance

[dense plover]

they limit choice because if you dont limit choice, first you cant limit the scope and second you cant breed creative solutions

[rain cave]

total system anarchy of free choice is bad

[dense plover]

you need to limit choice to limit scope

[rain cave]

but 0 player impact systems are also bad

you need to strike the balance

[dense plover]

wow has never had player impact

ever

[rain cave]

yes it has

it has rn even

[dense plover]

in fact, BfA and Legion are the closest we have ever had

[rain cave]

soulbinds, covenants

talents

legendaries

essences

corruptions

etc

[dense plover]

except there are better choices for all of those things

[rain cave]

well yeah the expansions haven't been the best

[dense plover]

if theres a best option for your dps or survivability, then its not really a choice, its an illusion of choice

[rain cave]

but people like classic WoW talent trees

the thing is

classic WoW did have cookie cutter builds

[dense plover]

its why having actual choices - like stuff that effects your professions or the activities available to you are better

[subtle oar]

F2P for WoW is an awful idea

[rain cave]

but people could swap personal preference is

[deep pawn]

We literally have talent rows with 3 choices. 99% of the time one is best for your preferred content

[dense plover]

they swapped based on the content they were doing

not preferences

[rain cave]

not true

[deep pawn]

if they can't make you switch 3 options, what makes you think you'll swap 2

[rain cave]

I'm saying like

if you give enough choice

even if there is a "cookie cutter" build

if they have choice to spare, they can customize from there

like if you want to trade mobility for tankiness

to diverge from the build

[deep pawn]

Down with false choices outside of 0 performance utility

[rain cave]

or add a bit of haste on instead

of vers

I just like choice

I want more of it

because that's where WoW holds the most fun for me

[harsh wedge]

But it is false choice

[rain cave]

is buildcrafting

thinking of cool interactions

[deep pawn]

You don't build anything, simcraft does it and we follow

[rain cave]

and the only reason people feel it's a "false choice" is because blizzard balance things into single builds

whereas if they opened the sandbox more

more builds would appear

add more unique effects

[deep pawn]

As long as there's ANY numerical advantage, one will win

[harsh wedge]

What do you mean the sandbox ?

[rain cave]

like for example, if they added a staff or somesuch that has an effect with fire damage

then anyone who does firedamage and can use a staff has a unique interaction

so like elementals might take more lava surge

[harsh wedge]

No matter the thing, if one talent or soulbind or whatever outperforms the other choice, most people will pick it, that has been seen since ages ago

[rain cave]

but then have different effects for different damage types

effects

etc

because multiple builds can co-exist

in the same spec

[subtle oar]

Definitely this. If there is even a vague system like Covenants, it needs to be removed from M+, PVP and Raiding. That way its just fun for the casual player and not required for progression

[harsh wedge]

This is again a false choice

[mossy meteor]

https://crt.sh/?q=dragonflight.blizzard.com

Ugh

[harsh wedge]

If that staff gave you more damage than any other staff, you’d have no choice than to take it

[mossy meteor]

Looks real

[rain cave]

not true

[mossy meteor]

What a horrible name

[deep pawn]

it absolutely does

I like the name

We're helping the dragons fly again

[dense plover]

might not be the final name but that art got DMCA'd so its probably real

[mossy meteor]

Low key hoping they see the mixed responses about the name

[deep pawn]

Can't wait to get the bow chicka bowwow going to get eggs

[dense plover]

mediocre name but base concept goes back to core wow lore

[mossy meteor]

And change it last minute

[deep pawn]

trademarks are likely already filed but sealed

it ain't changing

[mossy meteor]

Literally just adding an S makes it better

Dragonflights

[deep pawn]

I don't know

It's not about the flights, it's about flight I think

[rain cave]

"World of Warcraft: Dragonflight, huh?

The only leaks literally called "Dragonflight" mentions 4 new classes and player housing...

April 19th is going to be interesting, if nothing else."

from a tweet I saw

probably just a coincidental guess though

[deep pawn]

4 new classes would be bonkers

4 specs I can believe

[rain cave]

might be moreso 4 specs yeah

[harsh wedge]

4 classes with one spec each*

[rain cave]

or something

that would be funny

[deep pawn]

they couldn't decide between ranged and melee dps for tinker so made both. 😄

[rain cave]

dark ranger, tinker, blade master

what would the 4th be?

[deep pawn]

necromancer?

[rain cave]

nah I feel that's too DK

unless necromancer was

shadowlands themed

with different covenants as talents

[harsh wedge]

There was bard in that leak

[rain cave]

oh god no

[uncut vault]

I think given the site name registration from a few days ago, its probably the final name

[harsh wedge]

If I’m not mistaken

[deep pawn]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FPYNHlnXIAk7DFT.jpg

[rain cave]

tinker was in the april fools

[deep pawn]

this is floating around too

[rain cave]

yeah

saw

I'm intrigued by this

looks like a dragon logo

[subtle oar]

This... is actually incorrect. Technically. You're only limited in the amount of points you have to allocate to stats/etc. You can mix and match Classes and mold them to your own creativity. Be it a Homebrew or simply 5E. The limitations in TTRPs are extremely small. The only real limitation is your own mind.

[rain cave]

I love DND buildcrafting

and other games that allow it

I just think the false choice thing comes from the fact that the choices in Wow are already limited

so there isn't much opportunity for it

if they opened it up

let the sandbox be open

[deep pawn]

that's cause those are small group RPGs where the story matters more than the combat. Even in DnD there are objectively better builds but people play other things for a better story.

[rain cave]

then do biweekly tuning like other live services do

so nothing gets out of hand

I hate how blizz comits to per patch tuning

instead of just going

"oh that's weak, buff it"

as it happens

or vice versa

[harsh wedge]

I mean they hotfix the weak and nerf some

[deep pawn]

I fully believe Blizzard tries to rotate which specs are OP but since the pures have 12 dps specs they're almost always in the top as classes

[harsh wedge]

Last was today with guardian nerfs etc and buffs on ww

[rain cave]

dota's balance is phenomenal

because they are always microadjusting

then a big patch is just intended to shake things up

with balance as a thing happening continuously anyways

[subtle oar]

I definitely hope that they add an S to Dragonflight

[rain cave]

like dota changes things for the sake of change

just to keep it fresh and interesting

I'd say it works

[deep pawn]

I don't think it needs it

Hell the plot could be unifying them to be ONE flight

[harsh wedge]

Can’t really do that to be honest compared to a moba

[rain cave]

I reckon they could

it's not difficult imo

[harsh wedge]

Where as in wow you have to build your character etc

[rain cave]

just look at this and go "oh fire mage needs buffing"

and demo needs nerfing

or w/e

and if you're doing 2 week patches

tuning

[harsh wedge]

And you become benched because the weekly nerf wrecked your character to oblivion

[rain cave]

it can literally just change things minutely

[harsh wedge]

No more raid for you because you don’t have time to get ilvl on your other char

[rain cave]

but that's not how it would work

it's more like

if your spec is good, and then gets nerfed to being irrelevant

it's only 2 weeks

and they go

"sorry we over-corrected, have a buff"

so in flow, things aren't like that

nothing would stay "bad"

[harsh wedge]

Yes but you can’t really do that the same way as a moba

[rain cave]

why not

[harsh wedge]

This champ got nerfed ? Np I’ll play another one

You can’t say that in a mmo as easily

Because you need to stuff the new character

[rain cave]

but you're saying like

[harsh wedge]

This patch it is easy to catch up

[rain cave]

a couple percent changes every 2 weeks

will kill a spec in 1 patch

[harsh wedge]

I mean it can

[rain cave]

like what if they just said to demo

"nah tuned back by 2%"

they'd still be top

just more in line

[harsh wedge]

They are doing that

Literally

[rain cave]

are they beginning to?

[harsh wedge]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/april-5th-upcoming-class-tuning-changes-fire-retribution-and-windwalker-buffs-326581?webhook

[rain cave]

because I don't recall them doing it ever really before

[harsh wedge]

They are

[rain cave]

not consistently

that's good

[harsh wedge]

I mean they do weekly updates like that

[rain cave]

but these kinds of patches aren't as often as I would like

[harsh wedge]

Literally weekly since patch

[rain cave]

since 9.2 only?

[harsh wedge]

Not really

Since as long as I remember, they just don’t do it as often when It is end of patch

That’s why I don’t get what ou are asking because it is already done

[rain cave]

hm

I don't feel its impact

[deep pawn]

I'm honestly okay with dragons. They are a plot thread left hanging.

Infinite, Wrathion, their infertility

[rain cave]

because balance still plagues patches

like the bad balance

[harsh wedge]

Only problem is it is not for a whole patch but only during progress

[deep pawn]

Possible void corruption

[rain cave]

twilight dragonflight?

or whatever it was called

the light and void dragonflights

[deep pawn]

I mean Islands confirmed they're out there too

Sinistra I think is "alive" even

[rain cave]

I mentioned it prior but the dragons on there won't be titan evolved right?

[deep pawn]

We don't know

[rain cave]

they will be naturally evolved protodrakes

so they could be vastly different

in certain ways

[upper pasture]

I’m okay with it cause a lot of it can deal with the dragonflights and their “duties” to protect Azeroth and well she needs help

[deep pawn]

And the 5 flights can be an okay variety of borrowed power and questing

[upper pasture]

They pretty much F’d off after cata and hasn’t been seen since

[deep pawn]

Well beyond Azsuna

[upper pasture]

Well yeah lol

They all had duty regardless of whether or not they are immortal

Personally I think dragonflights will be akin to covenants and I’d be glad to see each flight have they’re own story arc about what they are doing to help fix Azeroth and then the big bad can be the infinite flight.

[rain cave]

yes

I just also think they'll limit the dragonflight choices

either that or they expand them but make them less impactful

like instead of a defining ability, and different trees for each

you might just get something like essences

which are more general

but if they tone them back

so you can choose from 2 per class

I hope they go deeper

or just make it all cosmetic and leave the player power up to other things

[upper pasture]

I really wouldn’t care if it’s just like covenants, class specific ability then a spec

Someone somewhere will find a way to minmax anything that gets put out and “elite raiders” will deem anything other than that trash.

[rain cave]

I want more unique weapon and item effects

because then even if a build is deemed strong at the start, if there's enough, more will be found as time goes on

and they can adjust items to phase builds in and out without even touching classes

or w/e

ascension WoW has some very interesting stuff

and WoW could learn a thing or two from it

[upper pasture]

We don’t talk about private servers here mate

[dense plover]

they tried that before

[rain cave]

why

[dense plover]

that was azerite traits

it didnt work

[dense plover]

private server talk is against the server rules

[rain cave]

ok

[dense plover]

because theyre against wow ToS

[rain cave]

I'll shut up then

mb

[upper pasture]

It’s against TOS and such against wowhead TOS

The big problem I see with WoW is just people. I was gonna explain more but that pretty much covers it lol

[rain cave]

lol

I think I'm on your wavelength

but I still think blizz should sandbox more

[upper pasture]

I disagree

[rain cave]

all my favourite games have got a sandbox of some kind

that's why I lean towards that

[upper pasture]

Structure is good

[rain cave]

Elden ring for example

even things like dishonoured

skyrim

[upper pasture]

If your character can do it all why bother grouping up with others?

[rain cave]

not about doing it all

limit the number of choices on can make in total, whilst increasing the number of things to choose from

if that makes any sense

[upper pasture]

You know damn well if you can level everything to max. Everyone would do so and solo as much content as they could

[rain cave]

I never mentioned that

[upper pasture]

But that’s elite gamer brain

[rain cave]

I guess

[upper pasture]

The internet will minmax if anything you’d destroy 36 specs to “sandbox it” and make one super class that in time everyone will just play that one

[rain cave]

I disagree since every class brings a unique thing

[dense plover]

what wow likely needs is a higher skill ceiling

[rain cave]

and that utility is nice

like DH increasing magic damage

rogues/monks increasing physical

raid buffs

[upper pasture]

And that utility would be destroyed if it was more sandbox

[rain cave]

not really imo

because that's not the sandbox I really mean

[dense plover]

FFXIV doesnt have rotation talents but even then most people cant nail their rotation 100% of the time, mainly because there are no addons that make that easy

[rain cave]

I mean sandbox as in give unique tools that enable different builds

[dense plover]

thats harder to balance

they already cant do that

[rain cave]

more fun though

and if they know where the imbalance is coming from

they can nerf it

[upper pasture]

Classes and specs already have unique tools

[rain cave]

mechagon bracers for example

[upper pasture]

Like wym

[rain cave]

I liked those

and the customizable rings from mechagon too

the unique effects on the miniraid in bfa

[upper pasture]

Honestly I can’t twice in one day

[rain cave]

wdym

[upper pasture]

FF servers are weird too, like their casts go off before the danger area is gone too. Idk server delay or something wacky

Not that it’s “bad” just different and I don’t want to adapt to it lol

[dense plover]

i think you are misunderstanding that the ability goes off when the cast ends

not when the circle disappears

you shouldnt be watching the ground to know when its gonna go boom

you need enemy cast bars

[upper pasture]

But shouldn’t the area disappear the same time the cast goes off

Not like persay spell effect but the warning zone

[dense plover]

it happens right after the area disappears

IE: cast finish, circle gone, boom

and if you were in the circle when the cast finished, you get hit, even if the particles happen after

[deep pawn]

Yeah, mechanic resolve checks happen as a cast finishes or the mechanic marker disappears

the actual spell animation happens after the check

it's different but it makes sense

[cunning fossil]

Dragonflight

Dragonflights

Dragonssss

[rain cave]

can't wait for aspect power

[deep pawn]

I pray pray pray it's one ability per spec.

[cunning fossil]

Aspect power?

What's that?

Also I just want some cool thinga

[deep pawn]

We're gonna have so much Anduin and Wrathion stuff I hope.

[ancient jasper]

Didn't Anduin ||decide to go back in to The Maw||? Who knows what will happen with that.

[upper pasture]

no, he just said he wasn't ready to come back to the world of the living

[cunning fossil]

It is highly alluded to in the Sylvanas Novel

[cunning fossil]

Yes

Anduin and Wrathion

[upper pasture]

Ah, haven’t gotten around to reading the book yet

[cunning fossil]

fair

But I pray

Anduin and Wrayhion

That ship better be sailing

[upper pasture]

I’d like more Wrathion

Regardless of if Anduin is there or not

[ancient jasper]

Yes, yes, Wranduin best ship. We know.

[deep pawn]

My original phrasing was going to be "Wrathion helps 'heal' Anduin" but yeah... I ship it

[cunning fossil]

Like the dynamic is literally RIGHT THERE.

[cunning fossil]

Damn right my friend

[deep pawn]

The tension in that slap, ugh

[cunning fossil]

I thought it was a punch

[ancient jasper]

Slap? Shit that was a punch lol

[deep pawn]

slap/punch, either way, Wrathion liked it

[cunning fossil]

Lmao

True

[deep pawn]

"He got strong, yes!"

[cunning fossil]

He did

Tbh I just want anduin to be happy for once

Like good God, his life since 16 has been fucking depressing

[ancient jasper]

Huh I wonder if Paladins/Priests can infuse their Fists with light.. That would be a hell of a punch lol

[deep pawn]

His life since he was a child was

Remember, he knows what happened with Onyxia and Bolvar

[cunning fossil]

Oh right. That is a thing

But I would consider that more troubled

It really turned tragic like

When he was 14 in mop and then 16 for Legion is where he has been in a constant state of depression.

[ancient jasper]

I'm curious what role Bolvar will have going forward

[cunning fossil]

Being a father to Taelia hopefully

[deep pawn]

Do we get to see Lor'themar and Kael'thas speak?

[ancient jasper]

It was alluded to but I'm not sure it is/will be added

[cunning fossil]

Yeah we didn't get to see it

I even went to darkhaven and Sinfall to check

But no Sun King to be found

[rain cave]

AP joke

(artifact, azerite, anima)

[deep pawn]

ugh, how dare this be 4.5 years old already

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQV2MLHFYFg

[cunning fossil]

Dang that's good

I forgot about this

[deep pawn]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2614875-World-of-Warcraft-Dragonflight well this is the "leak" post that has the grains of the Tirisfal revamp

[upper pasture]

player housing please 😄

oh man dalaran again lol

[deep pawn]

"Lordaeron. Revamped Tirisfal/Plaguelands. Scarlet/Light focus.
Quel’thalas. Revamped Eversong/Ghostlands. Silvermoon is a hostile city like Suramar." is the one that strikes the most interest with the story with Lor'themar and the Belves

IF they added a new weapon type in "Bard" there's 0 chance we go off of personal loot

I don't know if I buy upping us to 8 healer specs

[ancient jasper]

The only thing I really don't like about that is 4 different Classes being added with only 1 spec each.. Just seems.. odd.

[deep pawn]

They've said before they feel like they struggle to make multiple specs for one class identity

It's why DH only got 2

and even then people felt both felt half-done

[ancient jasper]

I feel like DH's 3rd spec could have been Ranged using Fel Arrows and shit

Would add another Class that could use Bows/Crossbows/Guns

[dense plover]

no way they redo silvermoon

thats so much work and whats the payoff?

it would be VERY weird as a current zone considering theres nothing there

[ancient jasper]

Especially when the leak apparently turns it in to enemy territory?

[dense plover]

no chance of that either

that leak just uses all the things people had hints about

the tirisfal changes, the living world stuff and the dragon stuff

you dont need to be a genius to write up some bullshit

[deep pawn]

to be fair, we didn't have Tirisfal or Quel'thalas before the ptr for sure. Tirisfal had the Calia and Scarlet background, but I don't know if anyone would have guessed Blood Elf and necromancy

[cunning fossil]

Player housing.
.doibtful

But

OH

[deep pawn]

I'm thinking guild housing could be a thing if guilds become social and secondary to "Alliance Communities"

[cunning fossil]

Guilds are still first and foremost anywayss

[dense plover]

i mean the tirisfal/plaguelands is probably entirely wrong tbh

theres hints of some stuff with tirisfal and the undercity

[deep pawn]

Unless they really are integrating a bunch of the Dark Rangers fully

[subtle oar]

Nah, the Sylvanas novel has him going into the maw with Sylvanas

[upper pasture]

Oh cool spoilers lol

[subtle oar]

points tp channel name

xP

[dense plover]

tbh, we shouldnt be encouraging people to spend money on something that shouldve been ingame

[upper pasture]

Didn’t know a book was ptr 🤷‍♂️

[deep pawn]

well it's meant to be ptr spoilers, book is a bit different

[subtle oar]

This channel is for all spoilers

[dense plover]

i love golden's writing, but fuck blizz putting the entire motivation for the fucking expac in the book

[subtle oar]

This book is definitely in line with ROTLK. Its her best writing. Saqd its required reading to know the full story

[deep pawn]

Taliesin swears the book wasn't needed to understand SL

[dense plover]

taliesin is a liar

[subtle oar]

He's on the heavy copium tho

Talie is pompous and full of himself. Take all the stuff he stuff with a massive grain of salt because he's been trying super hard to hold water for this story

Even going so far as to try to say the Jailer was not a 69D Chess mastermind. But the story and now the book just goes and proves him wrong

[cunning fossil]

TBH

His if4a for the jailer was

Just better

Unfortunately, it was wrong

But him being opportunistic would have been much more intriguing than "Big Brain Gigachad 5d Chess player"

That is of course my opinion

[subtle oar]

Tbh, I would have taken the Gigabrain ches player much better, if Zovaal was the construct chained in the maw and not the bald bitch we got

[cunning fossil]

Fair enough lmao

Imagine if we have something that is like completely stationary as a final boss

[subtle oar]

Him being the contruct first, drained of all power and thru our meddling he regains his power and then some and escapes, THAT would have been much cooler

Bellular had put that forward. It the Jailer had actually been the bot this whole time, locked in the Maw, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SUCH A COOLER VILLIAN. And it would make his machinations thruoughout history would have been so much cooler and beliavable

[deep pawn]

I don't care what mounts they include with the heroic or epic, I ain't buying before it launches and maybe not even until after pre-patch

[rain cave]

tbf a bunch of the sylvanas novel just reveals things I already assumed

but that's more reading into things with context outside shadowlands

and more

if somebody just played shadowlands

they'd definetly be confused

but yeah with the full context of sylvanas's story things line up

[deep pawn]

"so, after tbc 2.0, and wotlk 2.0.. we have... cata 2.0, big surprise" I mean... the pattern fits.

[rain cave]

Yup

[uncut lintel]

im buying the epic edition

idc whats in it

[subtle oar]

Pls dont, Foxy

Wait until the xpac is out. The epic edition isnt gonna go anywhere

[upper pasture]

i'll probs just get whatever is the most unless the difference between the two high end ones is a character boost

[urban spire]

im probs gonna pre purchase the epic edition too

[subtle oar]

Why even pre-order?!

[uncut lintel]

no

i pre order every xpac i aint stopping now

bcuz i get a free mount

[subtle oar]

-.-

[urban spire]

^ I do for the same reasons

[uncut lintel]

and ik what im getting

[subtle oar]

You can get the mount at any time. They never remove it

[uncut lintel]

im getting the same game that ive been getting every 2 yrs with cosmetics

idc?

i dont want to wait

im not as patient as u

[subtle oar]

Ugggh. Its not about patience. Its about voting with your wallet. That you dont want more shit on your plate

[uncut lintel]

?

what r u talking abt

pre ordering an xpac youull know youll buy anyway is fine, how is tat more shit on ur plate

wats the difference between spending 60 bucks now and 60 bucks later

[upper pasture]

"doesn't know what the expansion is yet" "Shit on a plate"

[uncut lintel]

even if xpac was shit id play it, example, ive played through wod and SL

[subtle oar]

So keep buying garbage after garbage, that'll tell blizz to keep shitting on the plate and telling us its gold

[subtle oar]

Literally not what I said, dont be disingenuous.

[uncut lintel]

at this point i dont fucking care, its obvious nothing changes in the game unless subscrpition counts are down

i can buy wha i want

[subtle oar]

Don't pre-order until after all testing is done.

[uncut lintel]

lol no

[subtle oar]

If you buy before the games out anf its shit on launch, Blizz still gets you money and you get shit

[subtle oar]

Lol yes

[uncut lintel]

thats just ur opinion tho

[subtle oar]

No, its fact.

[uncut lintel]

ive been pre ordering every xpac the same week it comes out and ive been doing just fine, ik sometimes its shit but stuff like bfa was fun

[subtle oar]

If enough people didnt pre-order, it would send a very clear message

That no one wants a Sland ever again

[uncut lintel]

what message

what message do they need

they know there game is shit and dying already they just dont care

[subtle oar]

-.-

[uncut lintel]

idk why this is a big deal for u

[subtle oar]

The edge, the nihilism. Ouch

[uncut lintel]

if i dont pre order it, someone else will so it changes nothing

[subtle oar]

Thats a defeatist attitude

[uncut lintel]

im not gonna be mad seeing ppl on that awesome pre order I HOPE ITS A DRAGON GREEN mount

[upper pasture]

"but if we all do it"

[uncut lintel]

ima be riding that dragon too

or watever it is

i hope its a dragon

[subtle oar]

I 100% bet Peach is not gonna pre-order this time around. He'll likely not even sub until the xpac is out, more than likely

[upper pasture]

okay and?

[uncut lintel]

ok?

idc abt peach

he does wut he wants just like me

[upper pasture]

who cares, if you enjoy playing the game and you have to money. do what you please.

[subtle oar]

Stick with your nihilism and defeatism then. Both of you.

[upper pasture]

yeah sure man

i just enjoy what i'm doing

[subtle oar]

lol

[uncut lintel]

i literally enjoy buying things liek cosmetics frmo the shop so

i wont be changing anytime soon

just like how next year ima be buying that rabbit for chinease year thing mount, icant wait to see what it looks like

[subtle oar]

I miss when you finally realized Blizz was fucking you over, Foxy

[upper pasture]

enjoy keep on trying to talk people out of playing a game you "like"

[uncut lintel]

OH I REALIZED THAT, A LONG TIME AGO,

u cant tell me that im blind when ik what im getting myself into

[subtle oar]

Literally never happened. Continue being disingenuous.

I constantly tell ppl to try the game for themselves

[uncut lintel]

i know blizz is fucking me over, they fuck everyone who plays their game over, what other point do u want

[upper pasture]

didn't you literally tell me the other day you "love WoW and you don't talk shit about the game" yet here we are

[subtle oar]

Nope. I told you I love wow and never try to tell people not to play it.

[uncut lintel]

i already had plans from the fucking start to pre order and im not gonna change it now just bcuz one person wants to see change in the game, the change doesnt happen, it rarely happens, it only happened in sl because people unsubbed

[subtle oar]

You tried to claim I tell ppl not to

I will always advocate for new player to try the game. Will never advocate for anyone to pre-order, not anymore. Not after BfA and Slands, back-to-back

[uncut lintel]

but idk why this is such big deal anyway, blizz is a shit company but so is every company, every company video game or not shits on its consumers so

ive just learned to live with it

and i cant wait to ride that pre order mount which i hope is again a dragon, OR WHAT IF ITS JUST A GIANT ELUNE DRAGON CAT EJDFIOAOFSJ im thinking too far into fantasy

whoa a scaley cat mount would be cool though

like a half dragon half cat

WHOA

im p sure we dont have one of those in the game

[subtle oar]

Its not even a pre-order mount. Its just a collectors edition thing. Bloizz never removes it. Hell, ya can still buy the Slands one

[uncut lintel]

yea i know but why does that even relate to my point?

whats the difference of someone buying it in 3 months instead of on announcement

like what is the difference is what im asking

[subtle oar]

Because its not a pre-order bonus. Its not a fomo item. Dunno why you treat it like it is

[uncut lintel]

?

i treat it like it is because its pre order content, aka cosmetics and shit, you pre ordered it, you bought it before the expansion even came out...?

just bcuz u can buy it later doesnt mean anything

[subtle oar]

Surprisingly, the collectors edition things are among the only things Blizz doesnt FOMO these days xD

[uncut lintel]

haha

exclusives are nice though

[subtle oar]

I disagree.

[uncut lintel]

watever

im selfish most of the time so its not rlly something we need t oargue abt

[subtle oar]

Okie dokes

[uncut lintel]

@subtle oar but anyway, i want vulpera customizations and more panda hair styles

and fluffy panda tail

[subtle oar]

Massive agree

Pandas got shafted at the start of Slands

I want Hair colour to be seperated from fur colour, cultural jewelry, tattoos, more hairs, more fur colours

[uncut lintel]

yess

idk why they didnt do that

i want jewelry for vulpera too like cmon, they live in sandy dunes and have treasures on their mounts and heritage armor, why cant they wear jewelry

[subtle oar]

Right?

I want Panda heritage armor and weapons too

[uncut lintel]

but then again

[subtle oar]

Seeing as Blizz is stepping into making racial heritage weapons now

[uncut lintel]

yea

the nightborne ones from tw are cool but i cba to farm badges

[subtle oar]

lol

[uncut lintel]

do tauren get to use their giant heritage totems as weapon mogs?

or is it just a back item

[subtle oar]

Just back items

[uncut lintel]

thats borin

[urban spire]

I hope 9.2.5 future ptr builds show some more heritage sets

even if its just 4 more heritage sets for races

at least start adding some each patch

or even just in the 0.5 patches to help with content droughts

[dense plover]

no chance

if 9.2.5 was getting heritage sets they wouldve talked about it

10.1 at the earliest

[upper pasture]

maybe prepatch?

[urban spire]

? But they didnt talk about the dark iron or belfs getting them

[sage night]

You mean the new quests?

[strange falcon]

You know they wont be able to help themselves

[strange falcon]

Sure can't wait to stand around for 3 years for a book to come out that fills in 90% of the lore for 10.0, right guys?

[strange falcon]

Taliesin would break his own spine by bending too far backwards to shill out anything blizzard makes, because they indirectly fund his career

[strange falcon]

Definitely wait until a month after the expac is out, preorders are influenced by advertising not actual quality and we have countless examples of this

[strange falcon]

You make the mistake in assuming thats a possibility for foxy, she is completely incapable of having even the smallest amount of self control and has shown this to be the case multiple times

[strange falcon]

No one believed baifeng even though they said the truth.

I mean, again you didnt have much luck preaching this here, in the "hopium associates fanclub"

[strange falcon]

Strawman argument

[strange falcon]

It didnt happen only in SL to be fair, it is very consistent, and that makes it intended game design, so they can double and triple dip of the subs of people coming back after they fucked them over telling them "oh its just a little fucking over now"
WoD players left, blizz added flying.
Legion, players left, blizz added lego vendor and others.
BFA people left, they made essences as a solution to eclipse azerite armor, and later corruption vendor.
SL people left and you got 9.1.5

Sorry for the monologue,thank you for coming to my TED talk

[vernal juniper]

SO

dragons

[vernal juniper]

so... https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2614875-World-of-Warcraft-Dragonflight

Guess if he was right and got a ban 😄

[cunning fossil]

Lmao nah

This guy I don't think is right

He probably just got the name correct coincidentally

Because a lot of this makes little sense.

Player Housing, as fucking awesome as it'd be, sounds a bit of a stretch

No leveling? Lol I doubt that.

[vernal juniper]

He was not the only one talking about it

btw what is player housing

[cunning fossil]

And MIcro Classes sound dumb

[cunning fossil]

Basically a player being able to have their own space in the world that is customizable and stuff.

It"@ like Garrisons, except not as hyper efficient and actually customizable more than just statues

[vernal juniper]

oh so nothing important 😄

[uncut lintel]

@strange falcon damn it i missed this convo wher i could use gif

[vernal juniper]

I love this time before the official announcment 😄

https://de.share-your-photo.com/img/b5b1e9a859.jpg

eheh probably fake but this if fun

[cunning fossil]

If this is a fake, this is a fucking AMAZINF fake

[vernal juniper]

new Ad from youtube

[cunning fossil]

Imo

[vernal juniper]

https://imgur.com/9F2YeLc

this will be a fun week 😄

[cunning fossil]

Oh that is referencing the Rxile's Feach Mini Dungeon

[uncut lintel]

anything WoW in 2022: lets put a dragon on it theyll never guess its the next xpac
the 2022 wow playerbase: so its a dragon xpac o-o

[strange falcon]

Its intentional, the leak was intentional as well, so that the hopium engines start working in advance, its the oldest trick in the book, companies have been doing it for decades

[plain violet]

This ad just take a Chronicle artwork, not trustable.

[uncut lintel]

take a joke

[deep pawn]

Its probably intentional to start hype but I'm not overly excited til I hear their plans for systems

[rain cave]

Yeah I just realized it dropped literally the day after the interview where they say Shadowlands season 4 will be 6-8 months long

Which combined with season 3 will be the longest single wait from patch to expansion I think

So them doing this is like a smoke screen to get hype on the new xpac instead

[strange falcon]

The wow only players dont need the smokescreen, what are they gonna do? Play other games? 😂

[strange falcon]

Damn the gif has fallen into the hands of george as well

Hey at least i dont have to pay rent

[young latch]

well it's a great gif

xD

[dense plover]

It’s probably real - think the Bolvar leak

[vernal juniper]

@dense plover do you remember the naxxa like "leak" photo we got last year?

[dense plover]

Different - I think that might be from classic wrath or a very capable fake. This came out way too quickly after the leak and the model and staff don’t exist anywhere else. If the art is fake, someone spent a lot of money faking it

[vernal juniper]

so back to Dalaran, again 😄

https://twitter.com/MrGMYT/status/1510629899433914376

MrGM (@MrGMYT)

There was some stuff happening with some Dalaran textures on the 9.2.5 PTR.

Probably reaching, but maybe we’ll be getting Dalaran 3.0 in the next expansion?

Likes

154

Twitter · Apr 3, 2022, 2:46 PM

[deep pawn]

People love Dalaran and it helps explain kadghar waking up

Also there's no way the Kirin Tor and Kalec aren't vital to whatever blue storyline we get

[vernal juniper]

could be a scenario too, who knows.

[subtle oar]

New Dalaran textures... I think this leak might be right >~>

[marble nova]

The next expansion will be something like this, I guess?

[subtle oar]

Expansion*

[marble nova]

Or this

[rain cave]

what if all the energy coming out of azeroth in northrend is what revives galakrond

like if some of it leaked away his corpse is pretty close

I could see dalaran being a bait and switch though since it is such a recurring gimmick

like that "leaked" cinematic shot with the necropolis

to me I got an idea of scale from that shot

wonder if the expansion will pan over northrend showing various elements of it before settling on wyrmrest, having some stuff there that then leads into galakrond reveal or something

maybe galakrond will destroy the temple

[deep pawn]

That'd be an epic cinematic

Exile the dragons from northrend

I still think the title is about the theme of them becoming one flight

But not "chromatic"

[rain cave]

could also have a second meaning of them just becoming active in general

the dragons have to take flight

take action

[deep pawn]

Flight also is used to mean escape

[rain cave]

true

how to train your dragon 3

xd

[deep pawn]

Danuser is probably really proud of the triple meaning

[rain cave]

https://tenor.com/view/mind-blow-galaxy-explode-boom-fireworks-gif-5139389

[strange falcon]

Best adventure they put in the game, they havent been able to reach this level with the 2 or 3 attempts at the dungeon run format

[rain cave]

so it's gonna be about the dragons forming THE dragonflight, migrating to a new place to escape some bigger threat

are they gonna add some stairs to the new dragon hub

[deep pawn]

And us champions reignite breeding

[rain cave]

and call it the dragonflight

[strange falcon]

Oh the memes that will be made if this happens

[rain cave]

don't alert the twitter artists

[deep pawn]

Well one of the biggest threats to dragons is they can't reproduce anymore

[rain cave]

I am already betting there will be a dragon matchmaking world quest

[deep pawn]

Kalec needs a wife

[rain cave]

so does mankrik