#beta-ptr-spoilers

1 messages · Page 608 of 1

tepid fiber
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If you're complaining about wow, you're still talking about wow, which is technically wow talk

dense plover
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Feel free to reply or add your own 2 cents or emotes or whatever

tepid fiber
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I just saw that lol

dense plover
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It’s a good point

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And that was the right place to ask

tepid fiber
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Probably a better way to phrase it too lol

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But yeah, a complaint box/venting channel is probably what a few people need that would also keep it from spilling over into topic channels where people wanna talk about those topics

cunning fossil
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Seething in the WoW head comments agaim

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It makes me sad but brings me great joy

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I learned something today

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I am happy we traded haha funni cock joke for a little fun fact

subtle oar
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Got it

zealous basalt
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I actually laughed like an idiot B due the name

visual vortex
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Oh I didn’t get it at first but actually that’s a neat bit of information!

cunning fossil
subtle oar
cunning fossil
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I mean sure I guess.

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But it's such a tired joke. Who's gonna miss it?

subtle oar
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I will.

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The Majority will

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Even Talliesin will. He's been against these changes.

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He's extremely progressive and pretentious. If even he disagrees, maybe its time to reel it in.

dense plover
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It’s literally the things that devs want changed

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It’s not a problem

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They’re not getting rid of the poop quests

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They’re getting rid of dude bro frat humor that makes some people on the dev team uncomfortable

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You can have a funny game without “haha masturbation and naked women”

tulip sun
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Stupid innuendos like Master Baiter are a welcome change

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Makes the world feel more...serious I guess

mossy meteor
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oh fancy badge

upper lantern
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Genocide and torture is ok. Sexual innuendos is a little too far though

left arch
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It’s world of warcraft not world of sexcraft

upper lantern
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It's never been world of sexcraft other than, maybe, the den in black temple (and I'm totally ok with the changes there)

left arch
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i dont think ive been there

urban spire
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I think my biggest issue with the super sexual innuendos is just that the game in itself isn't super sexual so you have these weird jokes peppered through out, at least the genocide and torture stuff has been in the game for a while and fits the world.
If WoW had sexual stuff from the beginning in not just a joking way, and it wasn't solely related to masturbation and making jokes predominantly towards females, there wouldn't be as much of a problem.
Look at games like Tera and FF14, both are fairly sexual, but it goes both ways and doesn't feel out of place because it's a part of the world at the core (for tera the armor and whatnot).

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on top of that, the genocide and torture isn't told as a joke in the game, it's a shitty thing happening in the world that is by no means celebrated

left arch
storm marsh
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I'm guessing Blizzard is supposed to reveal a new expansion at next Blizzconline (in February?) I think it will be just 9.3 as much as I wish it's a next expansion. I hope the "leak" season starts already since it's October

left arch
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thats exciting

strange falcon
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We got some updates here too

ancient jasper
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They did mention they won't touch Mogs in the post so that's one that can't be marked lol

strange falcon
pulsar minnow
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Seriously?

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Honestly it’s starting to feel like 9.1.5 is more and more of just a giant purge and QoL update than an actual content update.

strange falcon
ancient jasper
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.5 patches typically aren't content update patches and, mostly, are QoL patches.

pulsar minnow
strange falcon
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And even the magetower has controversy lul

pulsar minnow
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Yeah. Personally I have a lot of the cool artifact appearances like all the warrior stuff, werebear and sparkle cat, etc… I don’t see why they shouldn’t open up the appearances if they’re making the felbear.

upper lantern
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Should be pretty easy for them to make a new sparklecat skin

cunning fossil
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This whole discourse is so dumb personally. It's a nothing topic

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It means literally jack shit

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This is coming from.someone who is ok with the changes

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I give no fucks

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The IRL side I care more about

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But people keep passing and shitting and farming in their pants about this shit. Like shut up.
It's not gonna affect you. Bet your ass you've never even heard of these before. The only reason you know about them is that they're being reported by Wowhead

warm shore
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From what I hear, they removed the Male blood elf joke that references the Dont'cha song which makes me sad. It was a song reference, not hurtful at all. Female dwarves also only have like two joke quotes now apparently in the PTR

dense plover
warm shore
visual vortex
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Does PTR still have the option to import your live characters?

cunning fossil
visual vortex
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Good! Thank you

slender ember
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I don’t know. I think I’ll miss the “Nice pants, what’s the drop rate?” joke because it managed to get a genuine laugh out of a friend who was in a very dark place the first time he heard it. Stupid and sentimental reason, I know. But I personally liked them because they were dumb and made me laugh when times were tough because they were stupid little glimmers of humor.

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To be fair though - I’m more upset about the Twin Consorts change because they easily could’ve gone with Empresses instead of Empyrean ( which isn’t even a rank - it refers to a layer in heaven. )

left arch
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some of them are nice yes

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it will be sad to see them go

strange falcon
vernal tartan
cunning fossil
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Exactly where us that quote?

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fun to know that moving forward and throwing away old shitty things is a constant no-no no matter where I go in life. We're never gonna fuckin progress society I swear.

strange falcon
cunning fossil
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Oh I was unaware that's where he goes

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I thought he liked dies in Maw of Souls*

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To be clear, I don't THINK EVERY SINGLE LIKE OF DIALOGUE should be cut off

left arch
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Why did they remove it? I would read it but am multitasking rn

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And no more task should be added

cunning fossil
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I don't even know what it said to be fair

silent urchin
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I'm not sure I agree with the "Bite" in that transcription but that's what wowpedia has it as

left arch
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Well

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That’s cute

cunning fossil
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He Cursed my mother

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He deserves to be censored

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(NGL it probably sounds pretty funny VA'd

strange falcon
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👀

cunning fossil
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I agree they're going overboard personally

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But I do have a line to what is overboard and what is a reasonable decision.

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Quite frankly I just want to hear that next year

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There is no mass wierd Blizzard conspiracy shitpost on the forums or whatever

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Can we have one

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one single year

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In which we do not have to deal with some Blizzard Controversy?

tepid fiber
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Literally a "this is why we can't have nice things" situation

strange falcon
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Gumball at it again,changing ingame things doesnt change how people act IRL

tepid fiber
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Let em leave, honestly

strange falcon
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This is a "fantasy" game not a place for the devs to portray some twitter sensibility

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But it is a useless argument since the two sides of who defends and who leaves are so far apart they can never come to an agreement

ancient jasper
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Sanitizing a game that has you murdering "bad guys" daily and genocide seems like an odd decision. I guess genocide is okay but anything even remotely lewd is baaaad. I'm so bloody over how puritanical Americans are when it comes to things like sex.

opaque pewter
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There is nothing of value brought up on discussion by saying something like that though

cunning fossil
cunning fossil
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I just feel that sex for sex' sake seems dumb

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A bit more romance to justify the sexual stuff would be nice

strange falcon
tepid fiber
ancient jasper
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So the average player, who had nothing to do with the shit happening at Blizzard, has to "suffer" for it? That's.. Yeah no it's fucking stupid.

tepid fiber
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If you don't think that there are people in the community who are toxic for the sake of being toxic and ruin it for people who just wanna have fun playing a game without their fun being at the expense of others, wew, I don't know what sand your head has been buried in

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"This is why we can't have nice things"

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Even this server had to get rid of voice channels because people in the community can't act right

ancient jasper
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Again you're punishing the many for the wrongs of the few

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Which is so goddamned stupid

tepid fiber
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The many should have done better holding the few responsible and accountable. Don't be mad at the people doling out the punishment, be mad at the people responsible for the punishment

ancient jasper
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Awesome now we're blaming the community at large for not being able to stop the few assholes. Give me a break. Jesus Christ

tepid fiber
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Be mad at the assholes

ancient jasper
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Yeah instead of just getting rid of the assholes we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

tepid fiber
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Ok

ancient jasper
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Blame the assholes for being punished for what THEY did. You didn't do it, but you were, somehow, expected to police them and make them stop being assholes. You need better logic.

tepid fiber
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Clearly we have different ideas on community responsibility and group ethics, but I won't resort to being accusatory 🤷

strange falcon
strange falcon
ancient jasper
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Tell us what in the hell WE could have done to stop them. Like, seriously. Please. What in the hell type of power do the PLAYERS have to stop other players from being assholes? Holy Jesus dude

tepid fiber
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No need to get riled up and aggressively dismissive just because we have different opinions about community responsibility and ethics, calm down

ancient jasper
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If I see someone being a prick I report it. That's ALL I can do. And now the Reports don't seem to even get looked at after they nuked Customer Support to hell.

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No I need you to actually back up your opinion here. What can the Players, who have 0 bloody power, do?

strange falcon
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This is not IRL when you can actually stop someone from interacting with another person,if you see toxicity and harassment, they'll just ignore your chat messages,and reports are largely ignored or acted upon a month later

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The "the players should have behaved better" fundamentally doesnt work in the context of wow,because you have no tools or inefficient tools to police that even should you want to

tepid fiber
ancient jasper
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Awesome so you have NOTHING to back up your opinion. Good to know.

left arch
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relax don’t see the point in getting so riled up over something that is pretty minuscule when you think about it. But that’s just me I guess

tepid fiber
cunning fossil
slender ember
# strange falcon The "the players should have behaved better" fundamentally doesnt work in the co...

What Blizzard needs to do is hire actual moderators again. This is why anti-bullying shit fails because people expect others to act responsibly when there is zero discipline on the other end. You can ban things and take away recess for the whole class ( or in this case, the unnecessary changes ) or you can nip the problem in the butt directly with actual INTERVENTION instead of sitting there as a Blizzard employee and tweeting. “B-but toxicity!”

strange falcon
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They fired most of their QA staff and a lot of gms,over the years

slender ember
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Well it looks like it’s time to hire them back. It doesn’t matter how old your player base is, moderation is an important thing to have whether they’re well behaved or not

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It gets them farther in the end than talking down to the rest of us on social media once we raise concern / question over what they’re doing

terse patrol
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Forcing communities to police themselves never works out well. Either you give them the tools to police it then they become corrupt themselves, or give them no tools and instead punish the entire community. The bad eggs stay bad and they just take it out on others some more.

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GMs exist to maintain the rules, and with no GMs, nothing gets done.

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Or WORSE.

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GMs with no stake in the game.

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A lot of tickets are sent out to third party companies nowadays.

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Having GMs in game that can pop in and resolve issues in game is an extreme rarity nowadays, to the point where I doubt it even happens anymore.

slender ember
strange falcon
strange falcon
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i will submit this tweet to this channel
https://twitter.com/decervon/status/1445313711149920256?s=21

Alex (@Decervon)

@crstnmyr @carlierae26 @Wowhead Censorship is bad allowing it and justifying it is just as bad. When developers tweet saying their opinions matter more than their consumers. The game is officially dead. They can’t come back from this. It’s all a PR stunt and snowflakes

Twitter ·
ancient jasper
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Cool so with that list of removed Jokes/Flirts I think some races are down to like 2 of each at most

left arch
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Dafire has posted it awhile ago

ancient jasper
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And I almost guarantee Blizzard isn't about to pay VA's to replace the 72 jokes/flirts they removed

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Which is irritating

strange falcon
upper lantern
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Which subreddit is that from? 😮

strange falcon
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Dont know,i repost and source didnt have the subreddit name

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If you hate reading,it shows that the main writers at blizz are 🤡

tropic trail
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White people complaining about white people. Never take such clowns serious.
They pretend they are not white, lol.

uncut vault
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Hilarious how people can put together a bunch of conspiracy nonsense without remembering the basic fact that these are contractors for a fairy tale book, and not main writers at Blizzard whatsoever

strange falcon
uncut vault
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It makes her a contractor who has someone on the quest team that liked her or her work enough to make an NPC with her name on it with no quest or story relevance to the game

strange falcon
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You mean the same as how golden constantly states she doesnt write wows story,yet she's been hired by blizz to be a writer for it

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🤔

uncut vault
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Yes, because Golden is actually an employee at blizzard lmao

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Roux is literally a contractor, not an employee

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None of those people are

strange falcon
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I would be confused if i cared about the lore,not that RetconLands made any favors for those peole

balmy gate
left arch
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So apparently some removed emotes are going to be added back

strange falcon
cunning fossil
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This chat has devolved

cunning fossil
strange falcon
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soon 🙏

terse patrol
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As someone who’s a progressive leftist who is both bi and closeted trans, I do feel like there’s overcorrection going on.

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A sanitized world just comes off as another form of Gilead or Sharia. Moralism is never good.

cunning fossil
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Remove the most egregious stuff

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And then add in more inclusive stuff instead

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That's the approach I would use.

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And then beyond yhat

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Put in some fucking moderation Blizz

opaque pewter
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Be careful about so-called internal info leak. Some people are actively trying to create misinformation to feed into the hate

warm shore
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Honestly them adding Males to the sex dungeon area of BT and adding incubi later (Blood elf model? Satyr model? Unique model?) was a pretty good idea. Just wish they could add more voicelines to player characters instead of removing them. Maybe get some unique voices instead of the ones we've had since the beginning

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By unique voices, I mean customizable voice types for player characters.

young latch
strange falcon
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nothing they said was unreasonable

I have already been warned by wowhead for posting non wow stuff in this channel so i cannot express how you're wrong

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Sorry!

young latch
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ok but if you don't think trolls are based on jamaicans and tauren are based on native americans and orcs to an extent are based on certain tribal cultures (often mongolian and african) and are frequently presented as being on "the bad side" for the last 15 or so years you are not playing the same game as me

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that's just obvious if you have eyes

strange falcon
zealous basalt
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you really got warned? lol

strange falcon
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Yah,for posting things not appropriate to the channel

strange falcon
urban spire
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the darkspear trolls definitely have their voices and wording inspired by jamaicans and tauren are for sure based on aboriginal people, but I don't really think I've ever associated orcs with mongolians or africans. Tribal yes, but more so just kind of like tribal humans in general. And horde is jokingly the "bad" and alliance the "good" but that's obviously not true in terms of the bigger picture, they were just people with different views and one was unintentionally invading them because their home world was literally being destroyed. and Zandalari trolls are most definitely inspired by aztecs as someone previously mentioned, but I don't think it's much more than inspiration. Maybe there are some stereotypes in earlier writing, i'm not sure, but growing up playing WoW and Warcraft 3 since I was like 10 I never really got the feeling the races were supposed to directly represent different human cultures. That view has never really changed in my eyes, and I've also always played horde and never felt I was truly a bad guy.

young latch
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It's obviously not a 1 to 1 real world comparison but the visuals are apparent enough to make people uncomfortable and always have been.

urban spire
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lol

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again

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as a child I literally never thought that and neither did I when I was older

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people are so hecking sensitive these days

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might as well get rid of the game at this rate

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and WC orcs being based on Tolkiens does not mean WCs are mongolian

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the only thing that relates is the horde bit

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but WC orcs are very different from Tolkiens

young latch
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I mean... from some people's PoV that's what should happen, lol.

I like the game enough where I don't really think I would like to see it all scrapped but I think making alliance narratives where they are the pure good ones always makes this 100 percent more awkward.

urban spire
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and the horde was only bad in the last expansion because of sylvanas and even members in the horde hated her

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cough saurfang, cough

tepid fiber
urban spire
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yeah and the people that think the game should be deleted because of the characters and races in it should just go somewhere else

young latch
urban spire
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when was gallywix leader?

tepid fiber
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Gallywix was the leader of the Bilgewater Cartel

young latch
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He's the goblin leader since they were introduced.

tepid fiber
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Since Cataclysm

urban spire
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and garrosh was an ass, but up until mists he was pretty much just that

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I wouldn't consider him evil by any stretch until he was corrupted by ysharrj

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what about Baine

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Voljin

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Saurfang

young latch
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He's spicy before cata but in cata he just becomes antagonistic and then becomes evil.

urban spire
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or the Belves leaders

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or Thrall

young latch
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I mean Kael and liadrin were evil for a little bit but they're kind of a thematic outlier because they are more based on the alliance aesthetic than the horde one.

urban spire
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I meant recent belve leaders, kael wasn't leader of the blood elves when they joined the horde iirc

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he had already gone to outland and abandoned his people

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I don't know much about Liadrin though

young latch
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Liadrin enslaved a naaru but then begged for forgiveness and was given forgiveness.

urban spire
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to me it seems like people are looking at the few characters that lead the horde at one point or another and justifying that as why the horde is evil

tulip sun
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Things arnt black and white

urban spire
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The alliance and horde have both done things during war

tepid fiber
tulip sun
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You can't really say the horde is evil and alliance is good lol

urban spire
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^

tepid fiber
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Like don't get me wrong, I hate elves, but I wouldn't call them evil

urban spire
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if this was LOTR sure, tolkien always made things black and white

tepid fiber
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This isn't LOTR though, thankfully

urban spire
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but in WoW it very much is just a feudal society kind of like how we were

tepid fiber
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No it isn't

urban spire
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so it's pretty grey

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not feudal but I meant in terms of the wars

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the warfare going on isn't just horde doing evil things always

tepid fiber
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Warcraft is High Renaissance, at best. Calling it feudal or medieval is woefully inaccurate

urban spire
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Okay mister stickler, I wasn't trying to directly say that, my point was that they are going to war and doing war stuff like societies more so around the feudal ages did

tepid fiber
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But yeah, you're right

young latch
# tulip sun You can't really say the horde is evil and alliance is good lol

you can definitely say that the narratives presented to a layperson are that horde is presented as bad side and alliance is presented as good side. you can also say that alliance are broadly based on caucasian western cultures and that horde ones are specifically not (belves being an exception).

It's not crazy to have two brain cells and notice this if you're a world famous scifi author

tepid fiber
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Most of the conflicts the Horde get involved in are over territorial expansion or resources

urban spire
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we didn't really have the same kind of wars in the 1600s to the 1900s, it was mostly just imperialistic stuff. the world of WARcraft is pretty grey for me

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horde and alliance both do good and bad stuff

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neither is good or evil

tepid fiber
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For sure

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Clashing and opposing ideals, for sure

young latch
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alliance had not done anything significantly bad in the narrative for 15 years that non-wow lore specialists can immediately identify

urban spire
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yeah, and lately the reasons for the alliance and horde fighting has kind of become less based with the current lore, but like pre-legion I'd say the clashing ideals was definitely more shown

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like even in BFA the war felt a little weird to me after legion

tepid fiber
urban spire
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the alliance was enslaving the pandaren to help them build war bases on pandaria

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is that not evil?

young latch
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wow presents horde as "the noble savage" (and I really do not like that turn of phrase) who does bad things despite good intentions b/c it's in their nature; alliance are the civilized white people

tulip sun
urban spire
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they literally had pandaren children helping make war camps on pandaria

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the alliance

tepid fiber
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The Alliance has done a ton of messed up stuff

left arch
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Nah they’re both good in their own ways. It’s all morality and that shit.
Neither side is good or bad

young latch
tepid fiber
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Almost 1 for 1 what the Horde does

left arch
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It’s a lot of gray area

tepid fiber
urban spire
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^

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you must play alliance

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go play horde

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and level through some of the content

tepid fiber
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If you only play one faction, you're only getting one side of the story

urban spire
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exactly

tulip sun
tepid fiber
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And even just playing one side you still see messed up stuff, so you're not paying attention clearly

young latch
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i am sorry but this is what real people see outside of the wow bubble

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y'all are just wrong here

tepid fiber
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What

urban spire
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the story always shows the enemy through a warped perspective when you're playing the "good guys"

left arch
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I will say Sylvannas is a bitch

urban spire
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horde and alliance stories both show the opposite doing heinous shit

tepid fiber
urban spire
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obviously there are some bigger events that occurred that are easier to pick off

tulip sun
young latch
urban spire
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^ if I go into any other game fandom and start making opinions based on surface level shit, why should I ever have a say in that fandoms story or lore

young latch
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and that no shit smart authors are gonna notice that

tepid fiber
urban spire
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it makes no sense to me that someone who doesn't actively enjoy or engage in the warcraft universe should get a say in the lore or stories when they only look at the surface level stuff

subtle oar
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:>

left arch
urban spire
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I think blizzard isn't going that route, they've already made it clear she was in control with the half of her soul she still had access to

subtle oar
urban spire
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getting the other half wont make her good

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but maybe it'll be interesting

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half of her is pretty much true evil

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the other half is fairly neutral

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at least that's going to be my assumption*

tepid fiber
urban spire
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yeah half her soul is froze from pre-frostmourne death

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or the other shard

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that was in frostmourne that the jailer had

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dunno if it's exactly half

young latch
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I thinl y'all just need to understand that audiences who see the jamaican trolls as new potential players aren't going to care about diagetic arguements and deep dives into lore to hear about how they are not actually "bad." lol.

The non-western culture is based on a literal monster and that's not a shallow thing that ppl are gonna dismiss.

left arch
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I personally don’t vibe with sylv

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Great character but wouldn’t be my homie

tepid fiber
young latch
tepid fiber
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And there's a very fine line between inspiration and slanderous mockery

urban spire
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um

tepid fiber
urban spire
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I dont think the trolls or tauren are racist

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like

tepid fiber
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There's a difference between racist lampooning and taking inspiration

young latch
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It's like saying minstel shows aren't racist good luck selling that to people who haven't played this game for like a decade.

subtle oar
urban spire
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? how would someone see a troll and think it's racist

subtle oar
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You must be pretty limber to do that kind of reaching

urban spire
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in a fantasy game

tepid fiber
urban spire
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if someone thinks trolls are racist for being voiced by Jamaican people and inspired, INSPIRED, by them, then I don't think it's the trolls that are racist

young latch
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Maybe y'all can wake up and not make conspiracy theories about commissioned fairy tale writers who want to make the lore suck a little less.

subtle oar
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This is literally the "Orcs are Black people" talkingpoint. Those who make that argument are the ones viewing Black people as violent and evil.

young latch
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These people make more money than any of y'all do writing. if you want to be paid to write the lore acually build a portfolio and do it.

tepid fiber
tepid fiber
subtle oar
urban spire
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like so now draenei are racist to russians because they have russian accents

young latch
urban spire
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? warcraft doesn't have a bad pr image for the game

tepid fiber
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You're just moving goalposts at this point

urban spire
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the bad pr is developers being sexually assaulted

left arch
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I did not know the draenei were Russian

urban spire
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yeah russian space goats as my step dad always said lmao

left arch
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Idek what their accents even were

subtle oar
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I think it fits

young latch
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No, the goalpost has always been that the writers are paid because they're good and that you have to have 0 braincells to not see they have a point when they say it's a bad look in how the horde depicts minorities and non-western cultures.

left arch
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I think it does too

young latch
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That has not changed.

urban spire
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I always thought it was hilarious

tepid fiber
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Well, not just Russian, but also some regional Slavic accents tossed in

subtle oar
young latch
subtle oar
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No. Stop being a racist.

young latch
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"it is racist to say that the jamaican trolls ARE FUCKIN RACIST" lmao

tepid fiber
subtle oar
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Thats not on me

tepid fiber
young latch
tepid fiber
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All you're doing is posting reddit BS. You don't even play the game

subtle oar
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Geore just wants to ignore that other Human races exist and make every WoW race be based off White people. What absolute white supremacist clownery

tulip sun
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What writers are you defending?...I'm lost

tepid fiber
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idk, he's just moving his goalposts

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Trolls gonna troll

subtle oar
#

"How DARE you make this race take inspiration for a real world race and their culture! I DEMAND you change it to only respresent a White culture!"

tepid fiber
#

Pun not intended

young latch
subtle oar
#

Hes not even using a dog whistle, he's just using a sports whistle and a bullhorn

pulsar minnow
#

Honestly I don’t see a problem in WoW races taking inspiration from other cultures besides “Medieval Europe” because it’s not like we’ve seen that one 5 billion times before. Its what makes WoW interesting

slender ember
#

I may be a little late to the party here but I have a friend who is Japanese and Chinese and the Pandaren are his favorite race in the game BECAUSE they’re a mix of Asian culture much like he is ( his words, not mine )

Also, the Tauren have always been depicted as a race who just wants to be left alone and live in peace. The only exemption was the Grimtotem and their ancestors the Yaungol who aren’t even apart of the Horde and live in a SUPER hostile environment where they’re constantly beset by enemies.

tepid fiber
#

It's not medieval reeeeeee

#

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

pulsar minnow
#

Seeing a WoW take on “El Dorado” was freaking awesome in BFA. My biggest complaint with that expansion is that I wish Kul Tiras and Zandalar were separate expansions so there could’ve been just more Zandalar and more Kul Tiras

left arch
#

I like the diversity

tepid fiber
#

Personally, I like that it had the two. They were both their own renowned naval forces, which made sense to have them appear in the same expansion

pulsar minnow
#

Yeah for sure!

#

But man I just loved the aesthetics they made for both

tepid fiber
#

Oh, definitely

#

It was also nice to see a focus on both since they've been teased at for ages

pulsar minnow
#

Yeah

#

And honestly I think it made for better hype

#

I remember sitting there seeing the reveal for Kul Tiras and I cheered, then a couple seconds later I’m hit with Zandalar too? Make fun of Blizz all you want that trailer was hype

tepid fiber
#

Eh, I only disagree because I personally do my best to avoid hype. If I see it I see it, and if I don't I don't. Easier to not be let down when you don't build expectations

#

But, again, that's me personally

pulsar minnow
#

Understandable

slender ember
#

I remember the forum discussions on what happened to Zandalar and Kul Tiras during the launch of Cataclysm and 90% of people believing they sunk and would never be seen again

#

Memoriesssss ~

pulsar minnow
#

Nowadays we're just sitting here waiting to figure out what the heck is even going on :(

tepid fiber
#

My personal headcanon is that the major nations are doing post-war recovery while holding the Scourge in Icecrown while we're having high-stakes adventurer shenanigans

#

I'd love to have the next xpac be a more domestic "while the cat's away, the mice will play" situation. Plenty of opportunity under the circumstances for various antagonists and groups to get into trouble

slender ember
#

I want an expansion where we just explore the other side of Azeroth

tepid fiber
#

The supposed Dragon Isles, etc etc

slender ember
#

Oh, and player housing ( at the very least, update garrisons with a personal building you can customize )

tepid fiber
#

I'd prefer guild halls to player housing

#

Encourage people to play together again

slender ember
tepid fiber
#

Let's be real, no matter what does or doesn't get implemented someone is gonna complain about it

slender ember
#

Oh, yeah.

#

The only thing I had to complain about in Shadowlands ( mostly because I’m here solely for the RP ) was the lack of customization for the Pandaren compared to the other core races

subtle oar
tepid fiber
#

I've always been an advocate for all races having the exact same number of customization options

#

Also the deletion of at least 60% of the elf population

slender ember
#

For Pandaren I would’ve liked for there to be at least a snowy skin option / few more jewelry

subtle oar
slender ember
#

Although - I now personally headcanon that the reason why Tauren don’t have blind options is because they walk off of Thunderbluff due to poor safety regulations

#

I will not change this until Blizzard implements it

pulsar minnow
#

Tauren don't have blind eye options?

slender ember
#

Nope - you can have white eyes ( with the normal pupil ) but not the blind option

pulsar minnow
#

thats weird

subtle oar
slender ember
#

And an option to have your fangs poke out like in the cinematic - PLEASE

tepid fiber
#

They're canines, not fangs

slender ember
#

Yes, that ^

tulip sun
#

I imagine they'll give a lass over all races again

#

Pass

urban spire
#

I would love guild halls

#

and player housing, but I think guild halls would be a good way to start

#

hell, SWTOR added guild halls before houses iirc

#

they added the massive guild ships

#

guild halls could bring back some of the guild level features too

#

but I think the convenience for guild halls would need to stop after mailboxes and guild banks

#

like no AH and no personal banks

#

but it would be cool for guilds to get trophies for killing bosses as a guild

#

and this could be something every guild has access to even in the future, to kind of encourage old content

#

and then maybe have ahead of the curve stuff that's limited edition

#

tbh I think blizzard does consider these things, it's just a matter if it will fit with their design. They seem to only be capable of having 1 big system per expansion, so my hope is sometime soon they realize a system like housing or guild halls would be good because once it's in the game it's easy to tweak it and add things to it

#

I just dont want anymore single use expansion systems like covenants or torghast or azerite

#

I wish artifact weapons stayed in the game

#

It would be hard to add on to it, but I think adding onto it would have been easier than coming up with a completely new system

young latch
# pulsar minnow Honestly I don’t see a problem in WoW races taking inspiration from other cultur...

It's because when you "represent a culture" by making jokes about said culture, misrepresent it through caricatures, and then cast them as non-human when there are literally humans in the game, said cultures are
just presented as less human, and that's all there is to it.

That's enough to turn people off to your game and your stories, and it definitely looks even worse when that side is usually the bad guys in major story events.

But the writers who expressed distaste for this only wanted to improve the lore, and they did a good job with the fairy tale book. 🤷‍♂️

tepid fiber
#

You don't even play

young latch
tepid fiber
#

Mature response

pulsar minnow
young latch
pulsar minnow
#

Well Trolls pull from all over. It's not just haitan stuff. Even then, wouldn't you just call that Blizzard putting their own spin on it?

young latch
#

I think there would be a better argument for this if humans weren't in the game, but they are.

#

But I wish they had just tried to do legitimate fantasy races instead of trying to pull from real world cultures in not the best way.

pulsar minnow
young latch
#

I think those are a little better done than the trolls.

tepid fiber
pulsar minnow
young latch
#

And tolkien still isn't the best example because he literally based orcs on mongols and the wow ones are based on tolkien's.

subtle oar
tepid fiber
#

There are staggering differences, which you'd know if you played the game

pulsar minnow
#

The point is, what's the issue with pulling from real life cultures and their fantasies for a fantasy game?

#

Dragons are in WoW. That's from a real world fantasy

subtle oar
young latch
pulsar minnow
tepid fiber
#

I think George needs to get off his high horse and maybe play the game before judging what's in the game

young latch
subtle oar
young latch
young latch
subtle oar
#

XDDDDDDD

#

LMFAO

#

You call me a bigot but think that minorites are evil and violent and bad

#

LMFAO

#

Holy shit xD

young latch
#

I think coding them as such in fantasy is not great, yes. Which WoW recieves a lot of flak for.

pulsar minnow
tepid fiber
subtle oar
#

This is literally the "Orcs are Black people" talkingpoint. Those who make that argument are the ones viewing Black people as violent and evil.

young latch
tepid fiber
#

If they were to remove every real world inspiration from the game, there wouldn't be a setting anymore

subtle oar
#

You are projecting your own opinions of minority groups onto the WoW races.

tepid fiber
pulsar minnow
#

Because, you got games like New World with people of all different colors from a very european colonial aesthetic. Any issue there?

tepid fiber
young latch
subtle oar
pulsar minnow
tepid fiber
#

HUMANS ARE LITERALLY ONE OF THE TWO THINGS

young latch
tepid fiber
#

Why do you care when you don't even play WoW

young latch
#

I don't think it would be as weird if the game was exactly the same and there were no humans but I do think people would still feel really uncomfy with the trolls and tauren specifically.

tepid fiber
#

Maybe play another game that sticks to your "vision"

pulsar minnow
young latch
pulsar minnow
#

I think we already knew that

tepid fiber
#

My Jamaican raider buddy specifically plays trolls because the cultural influences make them more identifiable and relatable over other race options

#

A lot of people draw those connections from their sources of inspiration

subtle oar
young latch
tepid fiber
#

???

#

That wasn't my argument??

subtle oar
#

My sides are in orbit

pulsar minnow
#

Honestly I don't consider Horde Races beast races just because they dont look like carbon copies of humans. Isn't that like kinda the point of the horde

tepid fiber
#

@young latch Seriously, why do you care so much about a game and setting you don't even play and clearly know nothing about aside from surface assumptions based on your own opinions when you could go play another game and harass that community with your hot takes

young latch
# pulsar minnow I think we already knew that

Like, there's some very small changes that wow already is doing to make their lore feel less bleak. Humans already recieved new hair and skin tones.

I think they could make some changes to the trolls to maybe not reflect the cultures they're reflecting so clumsily but I still think this is a "you're never going to really fix it" situation. Same with the tauren.

tepid fiber
#

You. Don't. Even. Play. The. Game.

pulsar minnow
young latch
subtle oar
#

He just wants to inject his gross white supremacist garbage into the game. He clearly looks down upon other racial and enthic cultures having fair representation in the game.

pulsar minnow
zealous basalt
#

they aztecs

tepid fiber
#

There needs to be more representation and variety, not less

subtle oar
#

Every Troll tribe in the game has its own culture, loosely inspired from real life cultures

tepid fiber
#

Plus dinosaurs

young latch
# pulsar minnow So... good posture?

Well, plot-wise they get some actual agency. And they have a technically advanced empire and some cool new characters.

But this is still like a "humans are present so it will always be obvious to new people who pick up the game" issue.

pulsar minnow
tepid fiber
subtle oar
zealous basalt
#

Whats wrong with humans

pulsar minnow
#

imo honestly I'm just not a big fan of Talanji because I really loved Rastakhan's personality and voice actor. But that's another story

young latch
#

I think most people liked Rastakhan better than Talanji but they're both alright to me.

subtle oar
#

The Zandalari are the pinnacle of Troll civilization. They look down upon the other troll tribes as if they were children playing pretend

tepid fiber
#

At best they pity them

subtle oar
#

^

zealous basalt
#

Zanda trolls be metal

young latch
# zealous basalt Whats wrong with humans

The issue is that they're humans. In a fantasy game based on real cultures. That's more or less the issue. Some A-list authors basically identified this as cringe and reddit added them to a list and is mad at them.

zealous basalt
#

Fantasy game based on real cultures...

subtle oar
#

The Zandalari never moved against any of the fledgling tribes and empires as they saw it as entertainment by children attempting to make it on their own. They knew sooner or later their children would always come back to them

#

Which, they did

zealous basalt
#

looks to draenei

#

...Where is my space ship capable of doing slipstreams

young latch
#

They're russians tho.

tepid fiber
pulsar minnow
zealous basalt
#

Warcraft humans are descentant of big mess

#

Thats all I can say

subtle oar
pulsar minnow
#

Okay so like if an accent determines an entire ethnic group's inspiration, would stormwind humans be American?

zealous basalt
young latch
subtle oar
#

xD

zealous basalt
#

what

#

In

#

tarnation

tepid fiber
zealous basalt
#

That has to be

tepid fiber
subtle oar
#

Gum, you and Tiri really just need to block this racist. He just keep trying to justify himself

pulsar minnow
#

Varian just likes cheeseburgers guys

zealous basalt
#

the most racist thing I haev ever heard

#

What about people with no accent

#

What do you say tot hem?

#

No culture?

#

My head just exploded

#

No race in WoW are directly based on a real part counterpart because they all evolved from a mess, they may just take certain hints but that's because how the writers wanted them to be

#

If all

subtle oar
#

These people look down upon minorities and believe they have the final word and speak for minorities. Only they get to say what is or isn't racist, whilst being the biggest, grossest racists.

tepid fiber
young latch
#

A diagetic arguement isn't applicable to how devs of a game choose to depict their product.

tepid fiber
zealous basalt
#

Draenei aren't russian because of the accent but that's because in populal culture, in a setting that is written mostly on english, an accent like draenei means they are strangers

#

Also thats not true

#

Devs want to make the game however they want

subtle oar
young latch
#

Nobody gives a shit about lore if you're showing them a cow wearing a war bonnet and you try to say "this is a good representation of native americans in video games" lol

zealous basalt
#

But

subtle oar
#

He doesnt care that he doesnt play

zealous basalt
#

No one says that its a representation

#

Like

#

No one cares what they are "meant to representate" because guess what

#

That was not the intended design

#

Its a game

#

not a satirical parody

#

If you want to argue about this kind of stuff go to some South Park discord or reddit

tepid fiber
#

I guess he's going to gloss over the respectful representation of Tauren rites of adulthood

zealous basalt
#

They still make a good borger

young latch
#

I mean if that's your attitude to all games and art then you don't really have to care in the first place. But people who make money, well, writing and depicting pop culture definitely have a seat at the table imo.

#

And I definitely think they're right.

zealous basalt
#

No

pulsar minnow
#

Gonna be real here.

subtle oar
zealous basalt
#

That attitude is what is ruining the game industry

pulsar minnow
#

I don't think anyone really cares if the game pulls from real world inspirations because we just like them

subtle oar
#

George, you follow racists who say racist things

pulsar minnow
#

This is like you're trying to find a reason to be mad at the game for no real reason

zealous basalt
#

When people want to shove away the design that the developer wants to tell to force their own stuff its when things are going wrong

#

There are other reasons the game suck

#

This is not one of them

pulsar minnow
#

I don't really care if Dwarves make fun of Irish/Scottish people. I think they're cool. I don't care if Tauren pull from Native American stuff. I think they're cool.

zealous basalt
#

The races of this game don't depic any irl person, and if they somehow do its a concidence or its an INTENDED parody

subtle oar
#

This is literally the "Orcs are Black people" talkingpoint. Those who make that argument are the ones viewing Black people as violent and evil.

pulsar minnow
#

If anything, It's given me a new appreciation for the cultures they are inspired by and I'm actually interested in learning more about them as a result

young latch
zealous basalt
#

Want me to counter that last point?

tepid fiber
#

George, seriously, just go share your hot takes in a community for a game you actually play

zealous basalt
#

I am a mexican and i think the game is cool

subtle oar
pulsar minnow
young latch
#

That doesn't mean anything.

zealous basalt
#

It means

#

Because in your logic im part of a monority

pulsar minnow
#

I mean the legend of the minotaur comes from the island of Crete in Greece. (correct me if im wrong) So just no creativity?

young latch
#

Uncle tom is a thing.

zealous basalt
#

And if you say otherwise you are an arse

subtle oar
#

Cry more

tepid fiber
#

George is just here to troll

Screenshot_20211008-222250_Discord.jpg
zealous basalt
#

Don't try to act like a fake SJW because thats not it chef

young latch
#

shrug The Cat Valente story was one of the best lore writing we've gotten for a while so I'm very cool with them hiring them for more.

If, like, the company doesn't roll over due to all the scandals.

subtle oar
#

The only argument that matters here is that George is a racist, who follows racists White folk who think they speak for minorities. He's just a White Supremacist with a guilty conscience with the typical garbage White Savior syndrome. Its frankly disgusting. Go back to reddit, back to your gross circle-jerk

zealous basalt
#

I swear to god you two, Wyn and Gum, there is something wfar easy than do that and its just call for the mod

#

<@&299347348847329281> This George guy has been saying some racist hot takes

shrewd glen
#

Move on the conversation topic please

#

It's 9.1 spoilers channel not debate human prejudices and social issues channel

cunning fossil
#

9.2 needs to come so we have more systemic based issues to argue about

opaque pewter
#

Until then I'd be happy this channel stays dormant.

cunning fossil
#

Fat chance that happens lmao

left arch
#

at this point, this is debate galore channel

young latch
strange falcon
storm marsh
#

I want some announcements from the Devs to keep us excited 😢

subtle oar
#

Too bad they keep doing controversial things. 1 good change and then an idiotic change.

strange falcon
subtle oar
#

And get kicked again xD

left arch
#

again?

zealous basalt
#

For not being paid by Blizz... They sure reacted to it like if they were

left arch
#

thats ballsy of you to say

deep pawn
#

I don't think I've ever seen enthusiasm this low before. Not even in WoD

strange falcon
deep pawn
#

Is that a meme I have missed?

upper lantern
#

I mean, we're only getting one patch in the entire year. 9.1.5 is mostly a QoL patch that makes the SL grinds more bearable

deep pawn
#

People were angry in WoD, I've just seen mass disengagement

#

Anger means people care, apathy is worse.

upper lantern
#

Yeah

#

I've also seen a lot of people turned off by the story, which is a sign of trouble considering lore and story weren't widely debated until late BfA, and story isn't a focus of the majority of the playerbase.

I think people are just tired of promises like "things will be better this time around", and then the entire lawsuit happened

left arch
#

not sure if its good or bad that im not really picky, i personally have been satisfied

#

which its not even with just wow, im like that with skyrim too (people are mad about how there hasnt been a new game released in a while and that skyrim kinda get rebranded and sold repetitively)

cunning fossil
#

I just think that the 2 in a row expansion failure has really hit the game hard

#

It almost RELIES on that "bad expac. Good expac" to keep people around

upper lantern
#

That plus them completely falling out of sync with their usual patch releases

cunning fossil
#

These last 7 years, it's been "bsst modern WoW Expac -> At least 2nd worst expac in history -> a dissapointing expac with only 1 patch to its name after almost 2 years since the announcement.

#

Cocid played a part in that

#

But covid doesn't cover the fact that the stuff they DID manage to work on

#

Was just dissapointing

#

And then you have the company...

#

Like that just adds to the ever filling depression bucket

upper lantern
#

Don't get me wrong, I actually like Korthia as a quick casual zone you can get done in some minutes, and legion timewalking + mage tower seems pretty good too

#

It's just... not enough though

#

hence the apathy

cunning fossil
#

Yeah same

#

I like the stuff but there isn't enough quality to compensate for the quality

strange falcon
upper lantern
#

Torghast is much better now too. I have had fun getting to the secret halls and stuff

#

Let's hope 9.1.5 is out soon. Announcement this coming week maybe?

deep pawn
#

I just need more than a short timegated story

upper lantern
#

Playing mage tower again could be fun depending on balancing

deep pawn
#

Ff14 puts more into a single quest than all of 9.1

subtle oar
#

9.1.5 Ain't til November 2nd

#

Bet

deep pawn
#

I was expecting the week after renown 80, but there's been no hints they're close

#

I'm not expecting the same amount of story as 14 puts into every patch, but just more than what they're doing.

cunning fossil
#

The story is full of shock moments

#

Not enough meat

tight ferry
#

The story is closer to a Netflix show than an mmo. : oh no a baddy if we don't do something the world will end! We do something : oh no we did something but the baddy is just too bad it's not enough ,only the power of love and friendship can defeat it!

#

Rinse and repeat

cunning fossil
#

I wouldn't be mad at the friendship and honor stuff

#

If the story didn't take itself so damn seriously

#

Like how am I supposed to be engaged with a story about finding what you've lost and connecting with it when you keep making the characters lose things dear to them and then force them to go "it's ok. It was for the greater good"

tight ferry
#

Well also playing hide and seek while the forest is dying and a greater spirits are sacrificed for anima to make do.

#

I thought there would be stakes here. The trailers sure put it in that perspective. But then we went its K again.

slender ember
#

I really wouldn’t mind an expansion where we lost

#

I feel like Shadowlands could hopefully go in that direction — I was really hoping it would go that way with N’zoth

left arch
#

kinda want sylv to die in future expansion

#

i love her but shes had her reign

slender ember
#

They’ll throw her in the pile with Nathanos

#

One story thing I’m kinda disappointed Shadowlands never touched was Taretha Foxton — considering she’s the human who taught Thrall that humans could be good

left arch
#

she's been prominent for some time and she's starting to get milked, and i feel like if she is another major character again she is just gonna be
dead as a character

slender ember
#

I don’t see what else they could do with her after giving her back the entirety of her soul

#

Obviously they’re going to have her feel remorse for all the bad things she did and then there’s finding Nathanos but those are the only two I can imagine

left arch
#

i'll be honest i am unsure on what the next expansion is gonna focus on, or if they did game over sylvanas in any way - who would be the next major character

pulsar minnow
#

I think the general idea of this expansion is that it’ll be the end of Sylvanas

left arch
#

i mean, i dont want her dead, just maybe moreso a background character now

slender ember
#

I think next expansion will be Void / Light

#

Sylvanas doesn’t have a stake in either of those things so I can’t see her being a major player in that

left arch
#

do you guys think there will ever be a new character made? or would they just, choose a character they haven't focused on too much?

pulsar minnow
#

I think that’s possible, but honestly I think next expansion might be Lifelands

#

We’ve gotten a lot of Elune stuff lately

slender ember
#

The only thing that tips me off about a Light / Void expansion is the fact that we have old man Turalyon in Stormwind right now doing stuff unchecked

left arch
#

Yeah my bf was guessing next xpac is gonna focus on Elune

pulsar minnow
#

I can definitely see the Light stuff coming back in the form of An’she

#

Which can be the link we need from SL-> Lifelands-> Light Vs Void

slender ember
#

Light vs Void would be when Yrel comes back

subtle oar
slender quest
#

They won't kill her off. They gonna put her on ice like Illidan

#

if they wanted to kill her like ever, it would've happened in the raid

pulsar minnow
#

Her entire life has revolved around her struggle with undeath

slender ember
#

They gonna put her on a retirement farm somewhere in the Shadowlands with Nathanos

slender quest
sullen dawn
#

I honestly feel like we need a whole new cast (main char wise), supporting characters are fine

subtle oar
#

Can't get rid of characters like Sylv

pulsar minnow
subtle oar
slender quest
sullen dawn
#

Because baine thrall etc.. are so one note now I dont even want them in the story anymore

#

They're kind of 'ruined'

pulsar minnow
#

Baine and Thrall are actually cool again wdym

sullen dawn
#

They have brain damage

pulsar minnow
#

They brought back the Doomhammer outfit and everything

slender quest
#

by killing her off

pulsar minnow
#

Okay I don’t think you understand the difference between “killing them off” and “giving them a conclusion”

dense plover
#

it wouldnt have happened in the raid

slender quest
#

so what ever will happen, she most likely will stay the way she is now (with her full soul back) or become something new

pulsar minnow
#

If you die in the Shadowlands you’re permanently dead. I’m not asking for that.

dense plover
#

people get PISSED about killing people off in raids

sullen dawn
#

Yeh you can write out a character without killing them

dense plover
#

because not everyone raids

#

if they kill sylvanas, itll be a quest, not a raid

subtle oar
sullen dawn
#

Would be weird to kill her now

subtle oar
#

People got pissed about that in WoD

dense plover
#

they got pissed about stuff dying in the raid

#

specifically dying only on mythic

subtle oar
#

No one liked Garrosh dying in a quest

slender quest
pulsar minnow
#

Sylvanas has been talking about how death is broken forever and her entire story has revolved around escaping death for as long as possible. An end to her story could be having her choosing to remain in the Shadowlands and have a hand in fixing it

slender quest
#

by destroying her physical boddy

dense plover
#

not because he died in a quest

subtle oar
dense plover
#

us killing them =/= raid

#

you can have it as a quest

subtle oar
#

No

pulsar minnow
dense plover
#

im just gonna leave because youre never gonna agree with me and its just gonna make me angry right now

pulsar minnow
#
  1. plot armor
#
  1. Connection to Azeroth
slender quest
cunning fossil
pulsar minnow
slender quest
slender quest
pulsar minnow
slender quest
#

it's obvious that she stays in the shadowlands. All I'm saying is that she ain't gonna die anymore. That would've happene in the raid if the devs wanted her dead

#

unless.. maybe a sacrifice against the jailer ?

subtle oar
#

No

#

Thats be too stupid

#

They are gonna put her on Ice like they did Illidan

pulsar minnow
#

Why? Where would her story go from here?

slender quest
#

yes that's the most logic scenario to me

slender quest
#

by saying. she stays in the shadowlands to fix the shit she and the jailer did

#

or to make the shadowlands more just what ever

pulsar minnow
#

Sorry mistook the Illidan thing for the first time he was put on ice

#

Since it’s happened twice now lol

slender quest
#

oh lol

pulsar minnow
#

Regardless I just don’t see Sylvanas being relevant for a long time after Shadowlands. Which I think a lot of us agree on

left arch
#

i missed a lot

slender quest
#

well I meant the second part, where he stays with sargeras and bla bla

slender quest
left arch
#

but yeah i dont think they will kill her

pulsar minnow
#

Yeah. Speaking of that I’m really curious if we’ll see Sargeras let loose against the Jailer

left arch
#

but, i just would like if she wasnt a major focus in future xpac

pulsar minnow
left arch
#

i agree

pulsar minnow
#

Maybe give the dwarves some love

#

And… like new models holy cow

#

Muradin is still some basic dwarf with ICC armor

slender quest
left arch
#

i miss angry male worgen

#

they look very soft now

#

like a puppy

slender quest
#

also I want to see a lot more of Anduin

#

more of his shadow site

#

becoming more morally conflicted and less the good guy - but also not a bad guy

subtle oar
left arch
cunning fossil
left arch
#

i just want to make sylvanas simps unhappy

#

i have it out for them

#

its personal

cunning fossil
#

That's faie

left arch
#

faie

strange falcon
#

faie

subtle oar
subtle oar
cunning fossil
#

He's getting little development

subtle oar
#

xD

#

He gets A LOT of development

cunning fossil
#

Really now?

#

From the one cinematic with him in it

#

Sure.

#

He's literally being corrupted I don't see development

#

He is just a foil for sylvanas

subtle oar
#

He's gotten a lot of development since Legions. 3 xpacs of development now

cunning fossil
#

He is not big developed

#

I'm talking about this expac for one.

#

I have an Anduin bias I suppose.
Maybe because he's an interesting character in a world fueled by war

tepid fiber
#

We literally saw him grow from a boy since vanilla

#

And he was core to a lot of Mists

#

Definitely in Legion too

#

BfA he's the damn king in a war

cunning fossil
#

I just feel like in this expac he's not gotten development.

#

I may be biased though again since I LIKE anduin as a character

tepid fiber
#

I mean, to be fair, we saw his determination in the Maw intro but since then he's kind just been a hostage

uncut vault
#

equating being present in the story to actually having a story arc leads down a whole rabbit hole of stuff with how WoW has used characters for a long while

#

Including with Sylvanas, who is only actually being used as a character in Shadowlands, she was pretty much just a half-present boogieman for all of BfA

young latch
#

bfa was an expansion with beautiful zones but I don't know anybody who's like "bfa story? yeah, I really want more like that."

uncut vault
#

I know a few, but even they acknowledge that it's mainly just their individual character tastes, like with Saurfangs story, and that they only really work in the bubble of that character and kinda have to ignore the detriments it had on the plot as a whole or groups the story didnt really care about, like the nelfs and forsaken

young latch
#

I think the forsaken definitely got done the dirtiest. Nelves are in this weird spot of "they're kind of almost always the main characters but the story keeps making them look really incompetent" and I don't think they're trying to do that on purpose. :S

#

I think tension between Shandris and Tyrande is decent. Probably should see more of that. But the Tyrande and Maeve tensions kinda disappeared.

#

I think a lot of people would be happy pretending bfa just didn't happen but a lot of shadowlands seems to be about trying to clean up the mess.

#

One one hand, I will say it's probably difficult as hell to make long term story arcs for an MMO when there isn't an ending in sight and your writers are probably micromanaged to hell and back.

But on the other hand, that's why I like the questing stories best. The ones that are self-contained and have some sort of sense of completion.

#

I think WotLK was most people's favorite story because it had a closed arc for a long term villain. Legion did a similar thing and was up there for a lot of people.

I think it would be nice if they tried to make expansions about a story that end the big character arcs again, because Pandas was the start of the trend of "the cliffhanger in this expansion that leads into the next one is directly tied to the closure of the first expansion." What with garrosh going into draenor and guldan going into legion and etc.

Also Sylvanas plots just constantly being these cliff hangers that went nowhere (because of reasons we can figure out ourselves looking at current goings-on.)

#

But I think too much of the big problem is "authors set up cliff hangers" and "cliff hangers never actually conclude because new writers come on board or retcon old stories."

foggy abyss
#

There are a lot of reasons as to why Sylvanas' Arc is annoying and not interesting

#

First of all, it's forced, and made to have Sylvanas be a Mary Sue, From Legion to SL, Sylvanas has been out of character "I serve no one" except when I was serving for 6 patch before lol
She's written so poorly it's actually painful.

SL has been a massive flop because people are finally tired of this shit, having these damn, woke racist at the story board didn't help, it led to an inconsistant stories made by people hated by a lot.

Also the Story team overall has been making weird shit, like that part with Rastakhan, Rastakhan has been in the WoW lore for decades, and he was killed in a raid after 6 month of existence in the lore, the setup for the Shadowlands was also a pure mess, Saurfang was written like shit, "Urh less start a war, but I refuse to face the consequences"

BfA also proved how silly factions were today, I was so hyped with BfA because I wanted to be a proud member of the horde, or a member of the noble alliance, not because I wanted to Broly vs Gogeta N'zoth.

What a massive disappointment, I'm so sad that WoW turned like that, I miss it so much, and yet I know that it's pure trash lore wise right now, nothing is salvageable in that story

burnt flicker
#

I'm still wondering what kind of excuses they will bring for Sylvanas in patch 9.2 .

I believe is going to be something similar with Karigan .

Overall the shadowlands expansion is just a waste of time regarding storytelling. Feels like a 10 yo kid is writing the story.... Everything went downhill since they made Sylvanas a warchief, that was the biggest mistake .... and i believe SL is going to be the last nail in the coffin for Sylvanas story. I hope we never hear anything from her again.

#

i'm very curious as well for the next expansion. What kind of story they will bring into the table.

Legion milked.
Lich King milked.
Old gods milked.

what's left now ? THE LIGHT? yrel ? hahaha imagine if they dedicate an expansion about the light from alternate draenor....

subtle oar
#

Except, that would be awesome

burnt flicker
#

Light? Yrel ?

subtle oar
#

Yup

young latch
#

I would like to believe story matters more for MMO players but I really think it's not the core of why people play MMO's. Especially since people like to make their own stories and explore these worlds.

#

I do think -some- people definitely stick around more when they can get into the story, though.

#

I don't think Shadowlands has the worst story, really. It's not great by any means, but BFA really dropped Legion's ball in an impressive way.

foggy abyss
#

I think the biggest issue

#

is that WoW now is diving into politics

#

and it's something so vile and so disgusting to do for an MMO

#

That I'd rather lay it down and burn it to the ground

#

Even the devs are out of touch woke idiots in the major cases

young latch
#

I mean FF14 is more overtly political and more "woke" but it is also played by more people than wow right now.

I don't think politics are ever absent from any game but I don't think that's WoW's problem.

strange falcon
frigid crater
#

Once again the discussion is slowly devolving into fights. Please refrain from discussing recently removed/renamed content as these kinds of discussions always lead to insults and create toxic environment.

young latch
#

Let's talk about things we think shadowlands story did well: like, introducing dead characters who felt like their stories were cut short and reintroducing them in a new context.

#

(It's also not over but I really did love the idea of this exansion and I love the Kael and Vasj stuff I got to see.)

young latch
subtle oar
foggy abyss
#

Shadowlands did very little good, most of the good things were small things here and there

cunning fossil
#

Shadowlands feels like it would be good

#

If the patches came on time

#

I enjoy the great vault to some extent. The gameplay is pretty good still

#

Korthia is in fact fun

#

Again b to an extent

opaque pewter
#

I don't have an issue with the events that has been happening. I needed a way to escape from faction conflict and was given a new world to explore and new faces to see (as well as revisit some old ones). It's really set up to be an adventure. Thinking about it in that regard, it's satisfying.
The biggest hit is possibly ultimately that we didn't get the rate of content push we were used to

upper lantern
#

Yeah the main problem with SL is the absurdly slow pace of content release

cunning fossil
#

Agreed.

#

It was too slow and a bit too lack luster as well.

#

I get it. COvid has fucked everyone up, and the computers at home probbaly aren't even close to those in the main campus

#

but yeah

dense plover
#

its probably more that it took 4-ish months to get to making content again at a regular pace, and then they had to cleanup the expac before release

#

so everything is probably 4-6 months behind

cunning fossil
#

Yeah that's fair

#

They probably cut 9.2 content

#

And are rebranding 9.3 as 9.2

dense plover
#

no

#

im saying it didnt get made

#

i dont think theyre going to abandon shadowlands

#

they dont have content to switch to

#

they need 9.2 and 9.3 in order to have time to work on 10.0

subtle oar
#

9.2 will be 9.3 and then there will be a 9.2.5 to wrap it up and break ground for 10.0

dense plover
#

talliesin isnt a mind reader

#

and they probably have little to no work done on 10.0

subtle oar
#

Talliesin is generally correct.

#

Much to Blizzards shagrin

#

SLands will not last 3 years. That will kill any hype for 10.0 and piss off the Financial people who have all say in Xpac cadence. Blizz will not abandon the Xpac every 2 years cadence. Its just not financially the best move. Blizz is first and foremost a Company, there to make money.

dense plover
#

but they dont have an expac to launch

cunning fossil
#

Factual

#

It seems hard to believe that they have no expac to launch

#

but then again with Covid, they may have been restrained in terms of time

#

as in, tiem to assign people to both SL and 10.0 work

dense plover
#

if they had been working on 10.0, they wouldve been working on 9.1.5 and 9.2 as well

subtle oar
#

Im telling you, they will not have SLands last 3 years. Its jut not going to happen. The bean counters hold all the power. Even Tallie who is the absolute last one to jump to doomerism, is saying the only course is Slands being abandoned. Unlike WoD however, we are getting a third raid tier and the rest of the story in 9.2(9.3)

tulip sun
#

This also isn't really their fault

deep pawn
#

If there ever was a "third" raid it got dropped early in development and would've came before Sanctum

#

so we just missed whatever b plot raid they had

dense plover
subtle oar
#

Literally no one said that

dense plover
#

The next raid would be the third raid

subtle oar
#

We have had two raid tiers now in Slands, 9.2 will be the Third raid tier, the thing Blizz promised

dense plover
#

Yeah read what Kyle wrote

subtle oar
#

Ah, I think kyle is wildly misreading the conversation

deep pawn
#

I meant that 9.1 would've been something else instead of Sanctum

#

That the last two raids of the expansion were always going to be Sanctum and Zereth

#

They saw how slow they were going in alpha/beta and skipped the b plot raid then

#

Not that it helped them keep to an okay pace

#

Activision would rather the world end than not release an expansion in 2022

#

it just ain't happening

#

9.2 will come out some time in February or March with Blizzconline around then announcing the expansion and it'll release in November of 2022 most likely

ancient jasper
#

If you actually expect 9.2 before Summer of next year.. Heh

primal dirge
#

If you expect xxxxx before yyyyy then you're crazy

urban spire
#

@dense plover blizzard has said multiple times before they have about 10 years of stuff at least planned in advance

#

so like pre-production

#

blizzard is probably already working on 11.0

#

like WoD and legion were being made at the same time

#

in fact legion was supposed to come out before WoD originally

#

10.0 is probably in pre-alpha rn

#

10.0 is likely gonna release in november of 2022, and if not early 2023, which would make it an outlier in releases, but it's more likely than a 9.3 and release in nov 2023

#

since expansions = big money, content patches do not

#

9.2 is likely to be released in feb/march, and then a 9.2.5 in june/july to tie us until the late fall release of 10.0

#

9.1.5 is probably coming out mid november

#

and then blizzconline has info about 9.2 with a 9.2 teaser in maybe december or around 9.1.5 release, 9.2 ptr in jan and the 10.0 trailer as well if they plan to release 10.0 in 2022

#

if 9.2 doesn't come until summer I think blizzard is likely to lose too much customer faith

#

even from die hard fans who don't care about the content creators opinions and what not

strange falcon
strange falcon
strange falcon
strange falcon
austere gazelle
# dense plover and they probably have little to no work done on 10.0

When a new expack is launched, the following one enters development. Pretty sure the framework is done already. I wont say " pre Alpha " cause the framework is thinking about mechanics, zones, story, game systems etc. They probably have a rough map designed and a general idea of where they are going to. Maybe first iterations of the zone developed , to see what works and what do not work

austere gazelle
young latch
#

A dragon expansion would be lovely.

subtle oar
#

Light Inquisition or More Pandas

#

Kappa

tight ferry
#

If they fcked up afterlife I don't think there is anything they can do even remotely better.

#

If ya look back last year before the release I said the same thing. If they fck it up they are done. The Flash cast has better creative decisions and they came up with fcken speed thinking.

deep pawn
#

oh, M+ title for the best players

slender ember
#

I want to explore the other side of Azeroth

#

Arya Stark it

urban spire
#

afterlife is always a hard one to do, which is why in most cases its best to never fully open that pandora's box

#

it's extremely hard to have the afterlife given so much information when it's supposed to be mysterious and unknown, so I don't fully fault blizzard for that. It would have taken a seriously talented writing team to pull it off imo, so I don't think it's fair to use that to say they can't do anything better since the afterlife is probably one of the hardest things to do right

young latch
#

i don't hate how the did the afterlife storywise

subtle oar
young latch
#

a lot of people thought the afterlife system was cool; what they didn't like was major new characters tipping over after being introduced in cinematics

#

Devos was squandered pretty badly

deep pawn
#

Devos was right

upper lantern
#

when 9.1.5 😦

mossy meteor
#

when the sun stops shining

#

and the earth stops rotating

left arch
#

I really liked shadowlands

tight ferry
#

They could just drop the whole daily quest systems all of the rare bosses all daily chores and design it to take place in thorg you go in you choose how high you wanna go knocking out dailies and bosses getting ash and cinders it would be way less of a headache.

#

Scattering content around so you are mostly just getting from one place to another is pretty toxic. With better design you wouldn't play because you must play but because it would be fun.

young latch
#

i think i will agree that there is too much time spent traveling in this expansion

#

but i think dailies and world quests are fine

I think there's just too many different kinds of currencies for obscure things but that's always been a problem

subtle oar
young latch
#

time gating content i think i no longer believe in. i think that's just a mistake for an mmo model.

subtle oar
left arch
#

Idk i personally don’t think running around everywhere is toxic

cosmic beacon
#

I only have engineering on most my character just for the 15 min wormhole so I don’t have to run or take flights everywhere

young latch
left arch
#

I do hate loading screens

young latch
#

vulpera mage has so many teleport options though so i'm kinda spoiled on that front

#

it's really nice to click a button that just takes you straight to the outside of torghast

twilit lantern
#

got nuked ?

subtle oar
#

Why did the mods remove that conversation?

left arch
#

Because it’s not focusing on the patch

subtle oar
#

It was

twilit lantern
#

anyway, we will see next build

cosmic beacon
#

anyway

#

i hope they make zereth mortis a dope looking zone

glass flicker
#

I'm thinking, perhaps the final sigil the Primus needs is the Heart of Azeroth, forever linking it to the Shadowlands.

cosmic beacon
#

wouldnt be surprised

#

it is the most powerful titan in existence so she will have some connection to the shadowlands or the story atleast

glass flicker
#

With all this Old God lore, I wouldn't be surprised if Azeroth turns out to be the Void Titan that Sargeras fears.

cosmic beacon
#

would be one hell of a twist, and one i doubt many would be happy with

glass flicker
#

It would also mean that Magni would be a boss, so... Hells yeah.

cosmic beacon
#

we did see that old god planet during the star auger fight in nighthold

#

but idk if that has a world soul

glass flicker
#

Call me "CHAMPIEN" one more time, you fat sack of Azerite.

cosmic beacon
#

xD

#

you want the azerite magni, come get it

glass flicker
#

It could also bring Khadgar back into the mix, seeing as he's always about this cosmic stuff.

dense plover
#

Kinda the whole point of the burning crusade

cosmic beacon
#

ahhh ye good point

#

forgot about that

dense plover
#

He wants to wipe out all life so the void lords can’t win

#

It’s actually not a bad plan generally speaking

#

It’s just evil AF

glass flicker
#

I mean, is resetting all that evil? It gives you a clean slate to work with. Sargeras ain't the bad guy, Zovaal is.

opaque pewter
#

Just evil from us, living being, POV lol

glass flicker
#

Yeah. He's good in his eyes. Zovaal is evil, through and through. He just wants to erase reality and create a new one in which every soul serves him.

#

Sargeras doesn't want to be served. He wants to destroy the real evil, the Void. And the Void is enemies with Death and Zovaal. I'm surprised they didn't pull a "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" card yet.

left arch
#

Do you guys think I can make him fall in love with me

#

||/j||

glass flicker
#

Who, Zovaal?

left arch
#

Thank you

pulsar minnow
young latch
willow gust
#

is mage tower testable on ptr ?

subtle oar
#

Not yet

frigid crater
#

Please refrain from discussing removed/renamed content. Thank you.

frigid crater
left arch
subtle oar
cunning fossil
#

Oh our thing got deleted

#

I mean fair I suppose I didn't read the pinned stuff