beta-ptr-spoilers

[dense plover]

as long as its good before raiding, it doesnt matter

[deep pawn]

it wasn't though

that's the problem

every raid and season launched a mess of tuning that had to be fixed multiple times.

Rasz was probably one of the worst tuned bosses on launch ever.

[dense plover]

tbh, open beta might actually be helping here

[deep pawn]

I find keys too hard to test so I haven't for weeks

[deep pawn]

I don't think beta participation is way up

Streamers I watch say it's hard to form groups a lot

[warm topaz]

in beta? yeah, a lot

sorry, its "in beta" or "on beta"?

serious question lol

[austere gazelle]

Tbh I think the initial theorized release of end of september would have been good with one more month to tune stuff

They clearly need one more month atm

[warm topaz]

yeah im agree, at this point i don't think they'll delay it but they should

[austere gazelle]

I just fear that this " month " they need will be the weeks after release prior to the launch of mythic raiding....

it's gonna be a mess

We might see many hotfix and balancing the first weeks

[shy thicket]

probably based on the prepatch

far too many shutdowns

[errant wraith]

I wouldn't expect a bug free experience at first but that goes for any games big update

[candid ruin]

surely we won't be stuck under that pile of rocks

[austere gazelle]

We will struggle to reach magni and activate every step of the quest , like the early day of beta

[warm topaz]

i remember back in Legion

there was a bug

where you take the flighpath to Azsuna

and you got stuck there for hours

in the gryph

[austere gazelle]

In BC you couldn't survive Zangarmarsh. Crossing a female naga ? if you took aggro your game crashed.
Aggroing a mana ray ? you were feared / silenced / mana burned instantly at the same time and died

[deep pawn]

I'm sure it'll be fine eventually, but an expansion only has a couple weeks to make an impression

[warm topaz]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/na-accounts-receiving-compensation-game-time-for-extended-downtime-345456?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=240725&utm_term=game_time

last time they did this was in WoD

[dense plover]

that was the last time downtime was close to this bad

i would argue it was worse in warlords tbh

[warm topaz]

nah, warlords was 10 times worse imo

oh

that's exactly what you said

im stupid

sorry hahahaahahahaa

[novel zodiac]

hey, quick question, is it confirmed if we're getting new scenarios in TWW?

[tepid fiber]

New scenarios as in...?

[novel zodiac]

like the ones in Pandaria

[dense plover]

no

[novel zodiac]

im asking because of this, there's 15 new scenarios that are lvl 70-80

[dense plover]

scenarios have been dead

theyre arent coming back

[novel zodiac]

its in spanish, but i searched for Zekvir

and its a new NPC

[tepid fiber]

Yeah not in that format in Pandaria

[dense plover]

idk what this list is because its spanish

[novel zodiac]

added in 11.0

[dense plover]

thats a delve

[novel zodiac]

they're specific scenarios

oh, nvm then

[dense plover]

yeah theyre probably delves

[novel zodiac]

kinda strange that they appear there

[dense plover]

its probably built on the same base tech

[tepid fiber]

I mean, it's instanced content

[dense plover]

is this on live?

[novel zodiac]

yes

[dense plover]

ill load up and see if its in the english client

[novel zodiac]

yeah sorry, should've change lengagues first

[dense plover]

no one tested remix on beta so thats probably how it snuck through

you cant see the scenario list anywhere else

[novel zodiac]

makes sense

thanks

[dense plover]

yeah 100% the delves

these are the delves and some of their variants

what an odd bug tho

i wonder if its future proofing for running the delves via groupfinder

like queueing for a random delve

[sullen dawn]

Could just be that because they're tagged as scenarios (as you say same base tech maybe) they're getting fetched in a mode that lists scenarios

Id like to hope they don't do delves via groupfinder

Since they're presented as extensions to the open world experience even if they are technically instanced

[dense plover]

its unlikely to be through groupfinder

just saying it was possible

[plush marsh]

hey anyone having issues in PTR?

[dense plover]

ptr is down

it wont be back up until theyre testing 11.1

[plush marsh]

ty

[dense plover]

ptr is not for free wow

there is nothing to test so theyre not going to test

[candid ruin]

11.0.5 and 11.0.7

[sullen dawn]

Curious about 11.0.5 since it's the 20th anniversary celebration patch

Headed to Gamescom next month. WoW has a pretty big presence this year due to no blizzcon. Expect to see at least the 20th anniversary stuff, and maybe even 11.1 (legion style timing for announcement)

[deep pawn]

If it's truly Undermine it's not really spoilery

Undermine feels like our side plot raid

[sullen dawn]

I really hope it's undermine and not "goblins invade root lands"

[austere gazelle]

Sole delves are required for the campaign and there are story version of those delves. So having them in group finder ( probably locked at level 1 or something like that ) is totally expected.

[pulsar minnow]

I really hope undermine isn’t some side content and the narrative is actually woven into the story. My hope is that the way deeper into Azeroth is through the undermine. But I do worry they’ll just make it a raid and have the rootlands as our patch zone

Then final patch will be some giant underground titan facility

[sullen dawn]

I'm worried the patch zone will be root lands too

Would be lame

We've been waiting for Undermine for a looooong time and an underground expansion is perfect for it

The seeds are set with 11.0 as well

[sullen dawn]

I'm hoping Nerubians -> Undermine -> K'aresh

Not Nerubians -> Rootlands -> "Heart" of Azeroth

[pulsar minnow]

Unfortunately I think the rootlands is inevitable with Orweyna being such a major figure in the expansion. I just really hope they do the zone justice because I personally am worried about having yet another world tree for a zone

[sullen dawn]

Id rather have it as a mega dungeon

Nozdormu was a main figure or DF (was in a lot of the pre expansion stuff) and we ended up getting a mega dungeon

While black and green got zones

[warm topaz]

but there's no world tree there right? Aman'Thul take it

[pulsar minnow]

The roots still remain

And they’re thriving apparently

[sullen dawn]

Just roots but it's still world tree adjacent storytelling

[pulsar minnow]

Also art book says that Orweyna likely has something to do with the visions sent by Azeroth

I’ve dropped this theory multiple times and I don’t really got proof beyond “I think this sounds right” but I almost wonder if we’re not gonna go deeper into Azeroth physically, but instead figure out her history and what she is

Elun’ahir is obviously Eonar/Elune related

Eonar clearly has some friendship with Elune pulling her away from the other titans. As for Beledar, I 100% think it has to do with An’she

My running idea is that Azeroth isn’t being “born” she’s actually much older than everyone and is just now waking up. IE: a first one

[sullen dawn]

Yes this is a very popular theory

[pulsar minnow]

Yeah, but idk about the An’she and elune stuff

That stuff is iffy

[sullen dawn]

A variation is that the first ones can still be 'reformed' as titans or void beings etc..

Since their essence is maluable

But that's not their native/natural form

[pulsar minnow]

I know not to accept the folk and fairytales of Azeroth at face level, but something about it makes me really inclined to believe that it might have to do with azeroths past

[sullen dawn]

Some even suggests that's what happened with Argus (who some argue is a first one too)

[pulsar minnow]

I think Argus’ inherent nature was death related. But he was twisted into a titan

[sullen dawn]

It's possible the titans we know aren't born of world souls at all, and say they are as propaganda to push for making Azeroth a titan

[sullen dawn]

Yes

In chronicle 4 they say the first ones represent each of the cosmic forces

That there were 7 first ones

[pulsar minnow]

Oh shit I never saw that that’s sick

So Azeroth is the Harmony First One

[sullen dawn]

Possibly yeh

[pulsar minnow]

Obviously

[sullen dawn]

She everything mixed together effectively

So you remember the short story about argus waking up from his perspective?

The one that kept going ....blip....

[pulsar minnow]

I don’t think I ever saw that

[sullen dawn]

He alludes to being similar to Azeroth there. At the time we thought they meant 'unawakend titan'

But it's becoming more clear that it meant world soul (which is potentially a first one being reborn)

[pulsar minnow]

So now that makes me wonder how she got into her position as a world soul now. I mean we can take the fairy tales book from the Tauren and say that she took on some sort of darkness to protect anshe

Could be what Beledar is

But also the cosmic conspiracy stuff that Metzen mentioned

Maybe the titans, void, and legion have been working together somehow?

Would make sense with the box we found for lead up to the expansion. And would put the cosmic family together (Death, Life, and Light - Winter Queen, Elune, An’she)

[sullen dawn]

I think it's more that the titans grand conspiracy is simply to force Azeroth to be a titan

[pulsar minnow]

Well yeah that’s the obvious but it seems like it has a lot more ppl involved than we think

[sullen dawn]

Rather than use war/force (legion), or corruption (void), they created systems of control to reach their goals

[pulsar minnow]

Yeah you’re probably right

[sullen dawn]

I'm not saying your wrong. It could be anything, I just think blizz probably aren't going THAT complex

The titans being not good would still be a surprise to a lot of casual players

And we can find out stuff about elune, timelines etc... to have new details

[pulsar minnow]

Yeah no I thought about it some more and tbh I think the simpler solution is better

[sullen dawn]

If the titans are working with anyone it's probably the light, and even then I think it's not really a 'partnership' just titans ordering light to do their will

[pulsar minnow]

What I think might be the storylike is that:

• anshe got injured by old gods
• Azeroth took on his corruption so that he could live
• Azeroth placed herself in stasis to protect herself
• elune and anshe came into contact with the titans who promised to help eradicate the corruption
• titans plan to betray them

[sullen dawn]

That is all very possible

[pulsar minnow]

It could also explain how elune and eonar became such close friends

[sullen dawn]

It's funny there because we basically swapped one enemy for another

Without realizing it

[pulsar minnow]

Pretty much 💀

I still definitely think that not all the titans are evil

[sullen dawn]

Same

[pulsar minnow]

Eonar is definitely going to turn and help us out

[sullen dawn]

A couple will probably 'rebel'

Like three of them

[pulsar minnow]

Wait

SARGERAS MIGHT JOIN US

[sullen dawn]

Yeh

Very likely

[pulsar minnow]

awww that’s gonna be so awkward but so fucking cool

[sullen dawn]

Illidan and him are gonna reach an agreement imo

When illidan figures out titans are pricks

[pulsar minnow]

I’d love to see the dialogue between Illidan and Sargeras

Like a buddy cop adventure

Honestly I couldn’t care less about half the titans besides Sargeras, Eonar, and Aggramar

[sullen dawn]

I think some thing like Eonar, Sargeras, Khazgaroth, and one more night side with us against main titans

[pulsar minnow]

Oh shit I forgot about khazgoroth. Him too

Aman’thul and Norgannon definitely make me think evil

Though it would start to be very strange because the Primus is buddies with one of the titans who gave him time manipulation abilities

[sullen dawn]

Aman'Thul and Norganoth defo evil

[pulsar minnow]

So Primus is also kinda implicated

[sullen dawn]

I'm sure Primus might work with titans

Zoval was trying to break their system

[pulsar minnow]

That would be a massive twist, idk if it’ll work tho. But it would work with the “Primus is the true jailer” theory

[sullen dawn]

Imo there is a 'true death' beyond the ordered shadowlands we see

But that's pure conjecture

The death stuff is kinda whack tbh, hard to speculate

I do think there will be a splinter faction of titans and keepers who help us in The Last Titan

Prolly 3-4 of them including Eonar and Sargeras

[pulsar minnow]

I really wonder if we’ll see Amitus from hearthstone?

[sullen dawn]

Probably

She's probably an ambassador to the light which is why we haven't seen her

[pulsar minnow]

I know she’s not exactly canon but tortollans weren’t either

[sullen dawn]

Yeh I can defo see them adding her

[pulsar minnow]

We’re basically just making the avengers of world of Warcraft.

An’she, Elune, Winter Queen, Sargeras, Aggramar, khazgoroth, Eonar, Kyraestia(?), etc…

If they go this route they better make a long ass fully rendered cinematic that’s just pure fighting

[sullen dawn]

Don't think aggramar will side with us

Him and sarg have beef

[hazy kettle]

I just opened the channel, what sparked this discussion about the Avengers of WoW?

[warm topaz]

wait a moment

i remember someone commenting that in Chronicles 4 we learned the name of Invalidus, a void lord

for the first time i mean

im doing the Nagrand (WOD) campaing and you actually "defeat" him there

it is in spanish, sorry for that

[dense plover]

we dont defeat a void lord

void lords are huge beings we havent fought

its just a name overlap

[warm topaz]

that's why i say "defeat"

[dense plover]

those have happened before

[dense plover]

void lords cant exist in the regular plane of existence

theyre enormous planet eating monsters

this entity is different from the one in the quest

[plain violet]

But it's true the article said it's the first time we have his name in Chronicle, but the game gave us before.

[dense plover]

theyve done this before where they accidentally used a name they already used

[plain violet]

So thanks Taukken. :)

[warm topaz]

that's what i meant yeah

[dense plover]

oh thats fair yeah

you could post this in #wowhead-feedback-support - they might expand their article

[plain violet]

The name Indomitus in Chronicle was used for the Nagrand talk so yeah. 😁

[sullen dawn]

Slivers of them can like with dimentious in tbc

[uncut vault]

It’s less for the first time, and more that blizzard used the “void lord” term for him instead of the regular voidlord one for that model

Only other time they’ve done that is with dimensius

It’s a very dumb and confusing distinction and Blizz really should have made a more clear name for the big void baddies that wasn’t “this level 68 mob type but with a space in the middle” lol

[worn crown]

I loved all this talk-speculation between Toby and Tiridan 🙂

If it isn't the route Blizz is going, I'll make some fanfic 😄

[hazy kettle]

They were cooking something fierce - I just didn't catch the starting point, that had me confused. Felt like whiplash when I entered, suddenly in the midst of "But what if the Primus really was the BBG in Shadowlands " all over again.

Very much support the cooking though.

[lone mantle]

In the end, it's not the Titan technology that will save us, but the mortal spirit.

[hazy kettle]

In the end, it's not the Titan technology but the friends we made along...

Along the...

No, but seriously, the mortal spirit better be able to take on ||a transformers-sized robot|| on if ||Isle of Dorn's finale|| is to be trusted. 👀

[dense plover]

no need for spoilers in the spoiler channel

also, its not the isle of dorn finale, at least i dont think so? I think its part of the endgame storyline stuff

but maybe my memory is wrong

[sullen dawn]

Your memory is right

It's endgame story

We don't really know what happens after

[pulsar minnow]

Azeroth wakes up and world of Warcraft’s all over the place and then goes “what is this some kind of war within?” And end credits expansion over

[dense plover]

end credits cant play before Azeroth morbs all over the place

[pulsar minnow]

Khadgar goes “she was definitely the last titan” and then the sun sets to midnight

Hire me blizz

[sullen dawn]

You know Ellie, we really are the last of us

[hazy kettle]

The Last Titan... was the friends we made-

[sullen dawn]

New build incoming

I really hope it has the music 😄

Should be this weeks or next weeks build

[warm topaz]

another one today?

is Beta down?

[sullen dawn]

Didn't check but algalon sniffed patch incoming

[austere gazelle]

It doesn't fit the given timeline
An'she and Elune predates the Old gods on Azeroth, it was not the old gods but something else, or the old gods are older than the framework.

Elune and her sister were there during the First Ones era, before the framework was made, and helped them make the framework - according to the grimoire of the Shadowlands -

The grimoire do say that they were together at some point, and then had to part way to take place into their respective realm to fulfill the role they were given
So the Winter Queen - wasn't born in the shadowlands - and maybe her soul was sent there after the shadowlands were created - and Elune wasn't on the plane of life to begin with , so was not an " Eternal one " created to fulfill a role on the plane of life

[pulsar minnow]

I never said anshe and elune didn’t predate the old gods tho

I think aspects of the story are true

[austere gazelle]

What I meant that they can't have been born on Azeroth with the Old Gods already present since they were older than them , so the old one and the Darkness was probably something else ( could it be the first ones ? )

[tepid fiber]

I wouldn't use the word "true" for speculative fanfiction or headcanon

"Accurate"

Better

[austere gazelle]

But I agree. With the titans meddling in history and rewriting stuff, its complicated to know were the truth lie or not

[pulsar minnow]

Same difference tbh. It’s just my opinion on what I think will happen with the story

[tepid fiber]

No, not same difference, different entirely

[austere gazelle]

Maybe the titans were the " Darkness " and they rewrite stuff to put the blame on the Old Gods

[tepid fiber]

Important distinction

[sullen dawn]

Don't be pedantic gumball

[pulsar minnow]

I personally think the things of the Tauren mythos that are true to the story of the world soul saga are that An’she, winter queen, and elune are azeroth’s direct offspring. I also think that Azeroth’s corruption is either the reason that she is currently world soul, or more simply just hey another cosmic force trying to get to her in slumber

But hey, the jailer did say that there is something to come. And if there is some evil first one, that’d be probably the simple answer as to why she’s currently a world soul.

[sullen dawn]

That or there is a circular nature to the universe, and the first ones always revert back to that state

[pulsar minnow]

I’m mainly convinced of the anshe and elune stuff primarily because of Elune’s prevalence in recent years, and as for anshe, really just because of Beledar. I find it reealllly weird that Beledar is so special to the HOLY FLAME zealots, and also has a specific connection to the visions from Azeroth

[sullen dawn]

But her doing it out of defense makes sense too

[pulsar minnow]

The only thing we know are connected to the visions are Elune’ahir and Beledar

I’m really excited to see what they do with this premise

[oak herald]

yo, anyone know why the beta is saying incompatible for the realms?

[pallid coral]

beta's login screen got updated. Not quite what was posted on the main page but still.

[warm topaz]

yeah we talked about it a couple of days ago

[pallid coral]

I know it was posted with the middle part removed, but this is a partial removal though

[worn crown]

So, such an unusual time to release the cinematic

I loved it

The timing

And the cinematic, ofc 🙂

[zealous sedge]

cinematic was so good

not complaining. it is a little shorter than i was expecting. I feel as though they are condensing them to have more drop throughout the expansion? I'm all for it

[oak herald]

Anyone know when these are coming back up?

[deep pawn]

I have no idea why they posted it at 11pm edt

[deep pawn]

Try patching or logging in through the beta client

[oak herald]

I have done both. Is it working for you?

[pulsar minnow]

No idea. Blizz probably wants us testing max level stuff atp

[deep pawn]

Oh, that's ptr servers

Ptr isn't up

[pulsar minnow]

The only beta realms left rn are the these go to eleven

[oak herald]

That would be a bummer... I purchased the Epic edition to play the beta but I can't lol

[deep pawn]

You're not looking at the beta servers

When you log in is it asking you about multiple accounts?

[oak herald]

I am because my wife was playing on them last week

[pulsar minnow]

Well these go to eleven are beta servers. Just can’t access the open world zones

[oak herald]

Game Version is set to War Within Beta

[pulsar minnow]

I get the same issue so I don’t think it’s just them

[deep pawn]

I'm not on my computer to check.

[pulsar minnow]

Like the only realm left is the these go to eleven

[deep pawn]

Beta was up just an hour ago

[oak herald]

My guess is they shut down the leveling realms to work on them

[pulsar minnow]

The others are just gone and have been for a while

[deep pawn]

Levelling realms have been down since build

[oak herald]

There are two betas @deep pawn One at max level and 4 used to level

[pulsar minnow]

Yes that’s what I’m saying

[oak herald]

Are they staying down?

[deep pawn]

I don't know, but you're on the ptr tab which is why they're red.

[pulsar minnow]

For the time being it seems so

[oak herald]

Well scammed lol.

[pulsar minnow]

Dunno if they’ve mentioned anything in the build notes

Well no not necessarily lol

[oak herald]

At least I can still access the launch 3 days early lol

[pulsar minnow]

The max level beta realm still lets you mess with dungeons delves and the max level trees and whatnot

[oak herald]

I guessss

[upper pasture]

if you want to see the beta client you need to launch the beta verison of the game

[oak herald]

Anyone play a mage and know best spec for TWW? I typically play frost

[upper pasture]

not the ptr one

[pulsar minnow]

My guess/hope is they’re down while the devs work on implement music

[deep pawn]

Tuning is not final.

[pulsar minnow]

People are raving about arcane rn. It’s really fun

All mage hero talents seem to be bangers as well

[deep pawn]

Try all 3 hero specs and decide which one you like best

I'm partial to frostfire

We're 4 weeks away from being able to level for real and experience the story as intended. This late I'd wait.

Eleven exists to test specs and dungeons

[dense plover]

ok - they modeled the fucking city in the cinematic

no WAY they arent using that again

same with Xalatath

we are probably getting another cgi cinematic - they know those worked well in BFA and with metzen back on the team, he is big on the cinematics

if not more than one more tbh

modeling orweyna was a wild choice since her story comes so late and right now is very disconnected (i think its still partially encrypted tbh)

[deep pawn]

Orwenya is likely a major character in the patch content

I'll be shocked if the Root lands aren't our final zone

[uncut vault]

They revealed it at the Chinese relaunch event, is why

[ember blaze]

is there a reason why jaina has never been in a cinematic? 🤔

[upper pasture]

was she not in some of the BfA ones?

[ember blaze]

a realistic one

[upper pasture]

ah, likely because these newer HD ones are new and she's not really the face of the alliance anymore? or at least the face of whatever story is going on?

[ember blaze]

she's on the cover of that one wallpaper they released 🤔

and showed up on that cinematic with the in game models

where xalatath is narrating

[upper pasture]

yeah, that one wallpaper. totally the center of the story. i mean if we were getting these HD cutscenes during BfA i'd say sure we are due for one but she's pretty much older warcraft now and they've already stated they are trying to move forward with wow not the same 8 people over and over again. the only one that is still around and seems weird is Thrall but that's likely cause metzen is back so thrall is back at least for a bit.

[ember blaze]

hope thrall dies so he stops taking cinematic spots.

[upper pasture]

that's a little harsh

[crystal pond]

https://youtu.be/zYdFLUBjwCU?feature=shared

[uncut vault]

I mean she definitely is in TWW

she's on par with Thrall in terms of faction relevance, and has a leg up on him in terms of reasons to be involved in TWW's story given Dalaran's destruction

they've even been basically adding her to the promo material as if she was secretly in the reveal cinematic the whole time lol

[sullen dawn]

She was just out of frame lol

[ember blaze]

feels weird to just leave her out 🤔

and she's quite the iconic character in WoW

[sullen dawn]

They didn't have a version of jaina rendered in that quality

Possibly the reason

[ember blaze]

does whoever is in charge of these, hate jaina?

[sullen dawn]

They have base work for anduin and thrall from BFA cinematics

Don't think they've done a human female mage type before for them, so probably more work

[uncut vault]

They made all the Eternal Ones for a single shot each in the Shadowlands launch cinematic, they could have managed doing Jaina just fine if they'd wanted to lol

[sullen dawn]

I suppose

[ember blaze]

leaning towards they hate her then

[sullen dawn]

Maybe she's gonna die and they didn't wanna bother :p

[ember blaze]

🤞 hopefully it's thrall

[sullen dawn]

They definitely don't hate her lmao. Jaina gets huge screen time most expansions

[upper pasture]

tbh it was probably this cause like, who ported thrall over if not jaina. it would make sense if she hung back a little bit so thrall could get some one on one time with anduin since he was already running from the alliance

[opal storm]

Didnt we have Jaina expansion for Alliance side in BFA?

[deep pawn]

I'm still mad at how many people Katharine got killed.

[deep pawn]

I'm not sure I'm ready for how much certain types are going to hate Faerin.

[sullen dawn]

Good things the opinion of those types of people isn't worth shit 🙂

[deep pawn]

I'm just pre tired cause of all the crap one of the new characters in Dawntrail has been getting attacking her VA.

[sullen dawn]

I try and just ignore that kinda talk

You being upset is their goal (not specially you but you get my point)

[opal storm]

wait why hate her? just for skin color?

[pulsar minnow]

Unfortunately that’s basically the gyst of it

Faerin herself is a really good character and tbh my favorite new character this expac. That said, some groups will never see her for that and instead put the “woke” label on everything that doesn’t match their worldview.

[deep pawn]

She's, black, has short hair, and isn't "feminine." Typical incel crap

[pulsar minnow]

Don’t forget “disabled!” Despite her literally telling everyone she isn’t as she has A SUPER BADASS SHIELD ARM

Faerin is such a cool character in my eyes because she actually sells to the audience how dangerous the Nerubians and Hallowfall as a location is

These Arathi, if the game was more realistic and had the resources to do it in this setting, would all be missing limbs and crap like that. They’re barely surviving in this cavern, and they’re facing legions 10 foot tall bug people every single day

[deep pawn]

Too many people are calling her an orc.

[acoustic kraken]

mages can literally sit in one spot and fight with astral projections across the map from what i gathered in azure span in df. even bringing up disability as a hinderance in magic worlds is dumb lol

[pulsar minnow]

Yeah. Her mechanic even made a robot arm for her and the only reason she doesn’t use it is bc she doesn’t want to risk dying by working up the muscle memory rather than do what’s currently working for her

[acoustic kraken]

like what about the blind druids and stuff

are they woke?

[pulsar minnow]

Well that’s incredibly disgusting for those ppl to say.

I will admit I think she has the same problem as Anduin in old cinematics where his face never matches his in game model

Faerin looks much older in the cinematic than she does in game

In game she looks like early 20s

Cinematic she looks like 30

Inverse of Anduin

Not a big deal at all tho

[opal storm]

Thats sad...

Why ppl cant find middle ground?

[acoustic kraken]

bet they never said leotheras the blind was disabled

prolly cuz male and the 'right' skin tone

[opal storm]

Like, not being racist and also not forcing "wokeness". If character is well written thats all that matters

[thin warren]

it's just not abnormal that we have people of all colors and origins, we are one world, so it's fine that this also happens in games instead of always the white people everywhere

[acoustic kraken]

tbh theres a group i feel that just says every game is woke no matter what

or every media that gets released

[thin warren]

they feel every deviation of the white "normal" is forced, just because they are used to it being the norm

and they are scared of change

[opal storm]

Like, i try to understand both sides but both go a bit far.

[acoustic kraken]

the game has centaurs for pete's sake lol

it like doesnt have to be held up to real society

[thin warren]

but there is a difference in fantasy-creatures and humans

[acoustic kraken]

those humans though live in fantasy world

race to them isnt the same

[thin warren]

ofcourse not, but we watch it with our human context

[opal storm]

Like Yasuke wasnt randomly chosen by Ubisoft, but hating on good character for skin color when its not a retcon or out of place is stupid

[acoustic kraken]

yeah i mean ofc the companies do that, but from the world of warcraft pov, the chars themself dont care or shouldnt

[opal storm]

But the middle ground probably never gonna happen

[acoustic kraken]

and a lot of ppl try to escape from reality, so seeing all the variety and diversity, in context of the game world, makes sense

[opal storm]

Because one group will push the "woke", and the other with push back

[acoustic kraken]

yeah its just a dumb convo anyway cuz im trying to rp as an undead lol

[opal storm]

Good to be orc. You can be black or light skinned and that will be just a clan attribute

[acoustic kraken]

see thats what i mean, in context of wow, the races all have way different context than real life, and it gets into grasping for straws territory to connect it to real life

[opal storm]

I think media just tried to push it too fast

Cultural shock happened and ppl hate it now

[acoustic kraken]

wow breaks the 4th wall a lot with puns and references in quest titles and stuff too and i never felt anything was forced, cuz its just cultural references. but i never had a problem with feeling that stuff was woke to begin with. mb some of it comes from ppl not being aware that some of that is reality and feeling its a forced artificial message. who knows

[opal storm]

Welp, thats why i blacklisted both lqbt and woke words in twt. These always end up with drama in comments that im tired to read lol

[thin warren]

i mean, there was a lesbian scene in house of the dragons and apparently that episode got reviewbombed in the middle east

sad story of humanity

[opal storm]

Personally I only hate "wokeness", when it changes already existing characters. Like i dont mind new characters being black or gay, but pls dont retcon/change characters that already exist

[acoustic kraken]

if its fictional character idc. and could make sense to retcon from straight to gay as a coming out story

[austere gazelle]

I agree only if its an historical character with a clear set up background ( like nelson mandala for example ) if its fictional, be it a siren, an orc, a dwarf or whatever, those shouldn't matter since its fictional characters.
Our stories and books always took from what was existing before, and reinvented it, that's how we have new stories and tales that thrives.
The story of the Knights of the round table was remade to death with lots of changes in setup and in characters to the point you don't even notice where the story tooks its inspiration from to begin with, but which makes great stories nonetheless. Same for the Nordic mythology, for example.

That's how humanity made progress and leap forward. Stalliing on what is existing and never trying to improve and change it is what making stuff dull. For example the lot of remakes and remaster nowadays are most of the time very crappy and uninteresting, because if someone try to change it drastically to suggest something new ppl will cry for wokism and treason of the original story.

We can't dwell on the past forever and each stories always evolved with its current time , be it political or to match the current society. What's going on right now is not new, and has been existing since forever.

Sometime those changes works, sometime they don't, there have also been good and bad stories and good and bad writer since the dawn of time 🤷.

To finish, I don't think we should blame shows and stories for inclusivity or adding LGBTQ stuff because it's a component of our society so tales and writing should reflect it, we should blame those who write it badly and praise those who do it correctly, and stop watching it from a "political agenda " point of vue or whatever it is.

[sullen dawn]

There aren't "two sides" though

Theres just normality, and bigoted shits attacking normality because they're sad and lonely

Anyone who uses the term woke unironically is a moron

[little hound]

So there's an Archmage Khadgar model..that's a Wheelchair..Maybe he survived ?

[silent urchin]

devs occasionally throw in things to troll dataminers

[rugged coral]

he got jealous of pickle rick and became wheelchair khad.

[little hound]

tbh they did foreshadow his death in the Shadowlands's end, when he spoke with jaina.

About him feeling the weight of the years upon him, being tired and so on.

[rugged coral]

so the 'im getting too old for this shit' kiss of death

[austere gazelle]

Maybe he'll just be powerless and incapacitated...

[rugged coral]

maybe someone will just sit on him rolling really fast going WHEEEEEEEE

[little hound]

Pretty sure he's straight up ed

ded

[opal storm]

By changes I mostly meant like if character used to be "white male" in earlier versions and new version suddenly shows them as "black trans" or smth.

Like, add new characters to old story, don't change old characters there

[opal storm]

What have they done to the old man? D:

[deep pawn]

Unless it's something that changed with the actor. Elliot Page's character is a great example.

[opal storm]

That i dont know tbh.

For example if Harry Potter gets new trans friend in some part 8 - ok. If Ron becomes black suddenly - not ok

[deep pawn]

You think that show should have just recasted the role entirely rather than write that change into the character?

[opal storm]

Yes.

Wait why entirely

[deep pawn]

But characters change over time, lol.

[opal storm]

Just change actor for new part

That looks close to old one

[deep pawn]

Elliot Page likely wouldn't want to keep playing a female character, the writers liked the actor and the story was being written and was malleable.

I personally had no issues with the Harry Potter play casting a black woman to play Hermione.

[opal storm]

I had

[tropic trail]

What the hell? Haha 😆

[opal storm]

Did they really killed/"broke" Khadgar?(

[tropic trail]

I hope not, he’s my favorite

[opal storm]

Same. Like the old man

[little hound]

He's most likely dead.

[deep pawn]

And regarding sexuality of characters, that is fluid over time too. Maybe not rewrite that, but I'm fine with characters changing over time.

[little hound]

[opal storm]

He was the GOAT during WoD

[tropic trail]

Goat?

[deep pawn]

Flynn for example, him falling in love with Shaw doesn't require breaking character.

[opal storm]

Greatest of all Time

[little hound]

Hardly knew the char at all before the books though?

[tropic trail]

I thought you meant goat 🐐

[little hound]

What does fluidity and such have with the Beta spoiler topic to do?

Or..Harry Potter?

[opal storm]

Idk ppl were talking about ppl hating that new one handed girl

Forgot her name

Faerin?

[little hound]

Ah, the Lothar girl? What's so bad about Faerin?

[opal storm]

Skin color... ppl being stupid

[little hound]

Skin color has always been a thing in WoW, even if the customizations weren't added til much later.

Shouldn't need a 50 page lore explanation why one person's skin is dark in WoW, just think realistic for once

[tropic trail]

Lothar lineage wasn’t introduced much to us in game either so maybe that’s why people find that confusing.

[opal storm]

Well some think characters become black only for political message ig

[little hound]

Lothar lineage is also very variety involved. Seeing as around that time in the lore, the Elves (Quel'dorei) were teaching other kingdoms about magic. Seeing as some might choose to stay? It'd ofc bring differences.

Seeing as most humans in the new Arathi zone all have elven ears? Half-Elves.

[opal storm]

I mean... there were generations between Lothar we knew and now)

I actually saw that they want to add human ears to elves(?) too

Round eared elves sound wild to me ngl xD

[little hound]

Biology is biology.

[tropic trail]

I think she looks cool.

[little hound]

What are those new Dark Trolls / Druids called again?

[opal storm]

I like her too

[little hound]

I hope they become an allied race, they cool af.

The one you see in the Launch trailer, doing a damn Avatar dance with the roots.

[tulip sun]

Harronir

[little hound]

Ah righty

[opal storm]

Im not sure if i want them playable...

[tulip sun]

That woman is called Orweyna

Why not?

[opal storm]

We have so make elves already

[little hound]

Ngl, it makes sense to make them playable.

[opal storm]

4 elf races + male visage form of dractyr

[little hound]

And Harronir aren't elves.

They are more troll than elf.

[opal storm]

Elves are trolls anyway xD

Lore wise :D

[little hound]

Evolutionary? Yes.

[opal storm]

Ye

[little hound]

In their current state, they are not elves. They are still Harronir, not elves.

[opal storm]

Id rather get some ogres

[little hound]

Hah.

That's probably never going to happen.

Just as realistic as forum people moaning about "Bard / Tinker Hero Class" EVERY SINGLE Expansion speculation.

[opal storm]

https://tenor.com/view/world-of-warcraft-dancing-ogre-gif-15508060

[little hound]

Harronir are 100% going to be an allied race.

[opal storm]

Wouldnt be so sure

[little hound]

They are in the dressing room with SEVERAL Customization already so..

Big chances.

[opal storm]

We had races ppl thought will become AL

Like Nazjatar goblins

[little hound]

https://www.wowhead.com/beta/dressing-room#fzn8zz0zN89c8Mv48wOW8MvM8wvl8Mvc8wvH8Mvm8wvP8MvV8wvS8MvR8wEc8Mvs8wEk8Mva8wEq8Mvq8wEL8Mvb8wEy8Mvd8wEv8Mvr8wEE8Mvf8wED8Mvw8wEH8Mvi8wEK8Mvh8wEQ8Mvu8wES8MEm8wPd877C

[tulip sun]

Calling then an elf variant is a disservice to them

They arnt just a resting

Reskin*

[little hound]

Their postures are different somewhat too.

And the amount of primal nature in their customizations? Fur, quills and such. Very nice.

[tulip sun]

They're their own thing yeah

[little hound]

I'd say they are more animalistic than elven.

Body/Facial hair. Fangs. Quills / Claws. Very attuned to the earth.

Watch tyrande chase them off to the Horde too

[opal storm]

[tulip sun]

Have you seen them? @opal storm

[opal storm]

briefly, didnt check customization options

[ember blaze]

good for the 3 people who will play them

[opal storm]

im one of them

[ember blaze]

lets get some cat girls first

[opal storm]

no.

[ember blaze]

yes.

[opal storm]

pls no.

[ember blaze]

[opal storm]

unless furr is only ears

and tail

dont like full furries like Vulperas and Worgens

[tulip sun]

I 100% want ogres

But Harronir fit rn

[ember blaze]

pretty much what id expect

players really just like humans/elves at the end of the day

[opal storm]

I like orcs and trolls too

even goblins

[tulip sun]

Harronir have fur throughout their body

Not fully furred

But shoulders and such

[opal storm]

judging by dressing room on wowhead you can fully "shave" the fur from the body

https://tenor.com/view/help-me-cat-cats-tiedup-gif-26435735

XD

... poor cat

[sullen dawn]

Yep but it's obvious what kind of person you are

[opal storm]

what does that mean?

[sullen dawn]

You're using the term woke unironically, you're against roles being cast to different ethnicities, youre using the term "both sides", you said "media tried to push it too fast" referring to non-conformative sexuality

In summary, fuck you

[tepid fiber]

Basically

That and by "not choosing sides" you're choosing a side

[opal storm]

lmao

ok.

[tepid fiber]

Sure, laugh, but your impression is already made

[upper pasture]

By not choosing a side you are choosing the side of the oppressor

[opal storm]

im not obliged to support anybody and not going to. I just mind my own business and try not being disrespectful to people. thats it. i can like and dislike things. to avoid more off-topic toxic discussion im not going to talk about this here anymore.

[sullen dawn]

Liking and disliking things it's ok when it's about coke vs pepsi

Not representation of historically represed populations

[hazy kettle]

I'm sorry you had to find out this way, Effelon - but they added Polymorph: Wheelchair. Mage is gonna be broken af in the first season

[opal storm]

[upper pasture]

It’s also worth noting sometimes they use the “not model” of the character to hide lore related spoilers. So maybe he’s not dead but injured in some major way.

Say like if during the destruction of dalaran he losses a limb and survives (unbeknownst to us) why would they add a Khadgar model with no arm and tip us off that he survived

[dense plover]

if he isnt dead, he is in a serious coma or captured

he isnt in the story

[upper pasture]

Which is what I’ve been saying since the start. If he survived it’s going to come up later and not in launch

My money is still on Xal needs him for something

[pulsar minnow]

is at least seriously long-term injured

I wouldn't be surprised if hes like paralyzed

[sullen dawn]

No worries he can just be a floating head in a ball

Knowledge is power!

[pulsar minnow]

I think there was something about that pet no longer working in the war within

[hazy kettle]

On that note, can we all collectively hope the intro was a red herring and they didn't actually just void-disguise Xalatath or one of her allies as a dead Archmage from the Wc3 Siege of Dalaran?

Cause my God, that would be some horrid blind-siding Modera's, Khadgar's, Ansirem's and Vargoth's side.

[upper pasture]

That’s most definitely the intro to TWW

[hazy kettle]

... darn, in that case the intro will feel like a wet towel in my face.

I feel like they backed themselves into a corner with certain stories and to nuke Dalaran from the sky they need some secret weapon - but disguising as some corpse from Warcraft 3 ain't it for me.

[upper pasture]

I mean, it’s meant as a show of force of how strong Xal is and what other plans could she have in store for us

[sullen dawn]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nq8UUjq32IM&pp=ygUUV2l6YXJkIG9mIG5vcmdhbm4tb3o%3D

I like this quite a bit

Content and delivery both great

[lone mantle]

Insufficient facts always invite danger.

[sullen dawn]

Its just speculation, but I like how nicely it ties together. Fixes my biggest issue with the shadowlands which was ruining the dreadlords and reducing big cosmic players importance

It also alludes to something I've thought is true myself for a while, that there is a 'true death' behind the shadowlands

The mushroom dude in ardenweald talked a lil about it

[lone mantle]

Titans are not the origin of all creation. That is confirmed in Volume 742 of the Edicts of the Prime Designate.

[sullen dawn]

This video doesn't say they are

Only that they crafted the emerald dream and shadowlands out of the twisting nether

It says Azeroth is the origin of creation

[tropic trail]

I think he means that first ones were before titans and this video says that it was titans who constructed them 🤔

But the idea of some interview with stone watcher is cool

[dense plover]

I’m not you - I am happy they are doing something permanent. Destroying dalaran is a big deal

[sullen dawn]

Yes the video is saying that's part of their conspiracy

I think blizzard originally intended the first ones to be the creators

But it's lame

Id rather they go this route

[uncut vault]

Because that worked so well with Teldrassil :P

[austere gazelle]

it's a fictional character, not an historical one. If he is suddenly black in a version, it's not an issue

[opal storm]

like i said. i like consistency. If character was black originally it should stay black, if it was white it should stay white. And look close to whatever it looked previously. Its not just skin issue

i just dont like when characters change in story besides getting older over time

[upper pasture]

Stories get retold, if the teller changes things. Fictional characters can change, historical characters should not.

[pulsar minnow]

Well teldrassil was just handled terribly. The reason it got burned in the first place was stupid and made no sense and served as a character assassination to everyone involved

[dense plover]

different circumstances, also not an action by the opposite faction

dalaran is a place everyone has a story from - whether its legion or wrath, parts of cata or mop

having a significant place everyone has been to destroyed by the enemy helps get you on the side that wants to fight them

[uncut vault]

the issues with Teldrassil are not just because of the faction split haha

Blizzard has a pretty bad history with basically every time they've done a big "shock value" city destruction/character death at the start of an xpac

not the least of which because they barely ever meaningfully follow up on its implications for the greater world

Which so far, Dalaran seems to be following that same trend as we entirely move past it immediately in leveling, beyond Alleria's personal guilt

[pulsar minnow]

I mean, something needs to give if the devs want us to take this new threat seriously

“If nothing changes, well, nothing changes”

And don’t get me wrong I fucking adore Dalaran.

[uncut vault]

destroying things/killing characters isn't inherently an issue

the way in which Blizzard tosses them out for big marketing shock value and then does nothing to explore the aftermath is an issue

[tepid fiber]

It's the followthrough

[tulip sun]

There appears to be quests dealing with it. They're just not testable.

Even have Aethas dialogue for it

[uncut vault]

the Darkspear taking 5 years to get a new chieftain in an optional side dialogue where Rokhan goes "I guess I'll do it if it has to be me" is the kind of handling we get for these kinds of things, usually

[tepid fiber]

I'm along for the ride regardless

[pulsar minnow]

I get that but we really hadn’t had enough time to see the aftermath. We just crash landed on this island, being told we need to hurry to the center ASAP to stop this harbinger. The story is really taking place in Khaz Algar. The survivors we have are populating a lot of Dornogal as it is

[uncut vault]

we have the entire leveling and max level campaign save one chapter

[pulsar minnow]

The narrative is focused on telling the story and our response to Dalaran

[uncut vault]

that's the bulk of the xpac lol

and even if it isn't main story, the fact that they shifted their focus so hard into doing side quests this xpac offered ample opportunity to explore how it's affected the survivors

But so far, the only sign of that is one single quest with Aethas

[pulsar minnow]

One of the chapters of Azj Kahets campaign was rescuing survivors wasn’t it?

And we also had that quest with the last mage and how Dalarans crash had allowed him to figure out how to teleport home

It’s not like it’s being swept under the rug. But we really can’t sweep the narrative of the expansion itself aside just to grovel on the loss of Dalaran. When we’ve had ample mention of the failure that was its fall

There’s still plenty of story to see. And the future of the Kirin Tor is obviously up in the air, but that seems more like a late expansion thing

If I’m to guess I’d wager they’re moving into Karazahn soon

After this expansion of course

[uncut vault]

If you're going to make such a massive loss define your opening story, it's not 'groveling' to linger on that, it's just.. telling the logical aftermath as a story lol

deciding to ignore that for other stories with brand new groups is a choice they're making, they didn't have to write those things

If there's some secret massive questline dealing with all the aftermath, I'll be pleasantly surprised

but so far, the only real response we've gotten to people's lingering questions about the survivors is them writing in an extra dialogue where Alleria goes "vereesa moved somewhere else, let's stop talking about her" lol

[tepid fiber]

And I can understand needing to move forward and not having the time/opportunity to look back, but at the very least there needs to be some kind of acknowledgement of "oh man we still need to deal with this" or another form of recognition that the thing happened at all, even characters stopping now and then to question and theorize themselves

[pulsar minnow]

There’s multiple times where Jaina and Anduin both stop to talk about what happened. Missing khadgar failing dalaran and all that

Hell that’s like Allerias primary motivation

She failed Dalaran

She can’t let it happen again and she’s going to drive herself mad trying

[tepid fiber]

Yep, it's one narrative improvement imo

[pulsar minnow]

I’m not saying I’m against exploring what happens now to the survivors. I’m just saying by no means does the story “forget” about Dalaran at all

[tepid fiber]

Ofc

Which is great

[pulsar minnow]

Now I haven’t done all the side quests on beta. But even then with so many folk from Dalaran now inhabiting dornogal I would not be shocked in the slightest to see those more personable stories come out over the course of the expac

[tepid fiber]

I really missed the cities and sanctuaries evolving through the course of the expansion/campaign progress

[pulsar minnow]

I really hope they bring it back for dornogal

I can see Arathi starting to bring and construct airships up there, the rookery get rebuilt, harronir start tending to life up top, etc…

[vast thunder]

I can only log in to the Goes to Eleven server - is that just me?

[uncut vault]

It's not, the leveling servers have been down since the last build

[vast thunder]

ty

is there any info about new war mode gear?

[austere gazelle]

I got hard time being concerned for Dalaran's destruction.. Because that's the third time in the story it's been destroyed

They managed to rebuild it two time, they'll do it again...

[opal storm]

• legion and wrath exist to still chill there

But to be serious, it will take at least 6 years to rebuild it coz i really doubt they will bother with this in WSS

[deep pawn]

It wager it'll be our capital for TLT

I triumphant return to Northrend

Rebuilt with no faction quarters

[dense plover]

what info would there be?

you just buy it i think?

[vast thunder]

apparently there's no weekly quest, it's all available for coins, but there's no info on wowhead on what gear there actually is

and the open world server is down, so I can't check in the new capital

[dense plover]

there is a weekly quest - or it might just be the bonus events?

im pretty sure there is a weekly quest

[dense plover]

essentially whatever gear they have now

there are no major changes to pvp

[vast thunder]

Sparks of War: Isle of Dorn only gives bloody tokens and honor

the bloody tokens are sold for 350 gear

[dense plover]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

im pretty sure there is a way to get pvp gear

i think it costs conquest

[vast thunder]

Oh for sure, but conq starts with season 1. In DF you could get full blue war mode gear before the season opened

The lack of epic war mode gear sucks though

[hazy kettle]

I'm not againstb0ermanent change at all, very much with you! I'm saying the story element to achieve this is the pretty much just dumbing down the Council to not even question / investigate their former acquaintance's sudden reappearance despite everything going on. :c

(To me) it feels like they put themselves in a corner and needed a way out to destroy Dalaran. Full transparency, haven't done the Harbinger quests yet.

[dense plover]

hes been missing for a while, theres no way for them to really check tbh

like - Xal is EXTREMELY powerful

the entire point is that even the most powerful mages on azeroth were duped

[deep pawn]

I do hope they explain maybe some mind control so it doesn't feel like the Kirin Tor collectively held the idiot ball

[little hound]

Don’t think its mind control. Think Xal has taken his form for this moment

[sullen dawn]

Maybe he's just drunk

[little hound]

Maybe 😂

[deep pawn]

I meant that she's influencing the rest to not question why someone presumed dead is back

[austere gazelle]

Maybe that even easier. Maybe he just came back like two days ago so they did not even have time to end the investigation

[hazy kettle]

That is exactly what I hope for and what I struggled to express, @dense plover :x If it's really just a "hmm, this is sus... oh well, can't check it and he was a good guy back then after all!", then that's a poor way of writing this betrayal plot.

[dense plover]

I don’t think they’re going to suspect him at all

But part of what we know is the nerubians assault and web the city before it is destroyed. It’s not just Xal doing a big attack

[hazy kettle]

That just... has me worried then. I get the emotional turmoil of suddenly finding a long lost ally / friend has returned, but from a player perspective it gives me a disconnect with how wise those characters are often portrayed as. Then again, that is if that's how it actually goes down.

[austere gazelle]

Yeah... they should have added a little discussion and chat between themselves to know that at least one of them was suspicious

[hazy kettle]

Massive L, meant to reply to @dense plover T_T Anyway, I am repeating myself stupidly. I hope they cooked well, I'm still a fan regardless, just a bit worried.

[hazy kettle]

The 10.2.7 conversations had me hoping for that too, but we'll see.

[sullen dawn]

Wow team aren't very good at that kind of character storytelling anyway

It's better to think of wow character as cartoon characters in many ways

The main plot beats come first, and everyone dances to that

If something doesnt make sense...a wizard did it

[hazy kettle]

Hmm. You're not wrong, vast difference between novels, cinematics and quests in game

[sullen dawn]

I think it's because they design the major plot first, and then align everyone to that, forcefully sometimes, even if it doesn't quite make sense

Instead of having the overarching plot be the emergent result of natural character interactions

Probably because it's harder for them to change the main plot beats, since it influences zone design, raids etc...

One they lock it in (probably with a lot of input from non story departments like marketing) everything has to fit that, even if it's a square object in a round hole

[hazy kettle]

https://tenor.com/view/qa-developer-software-development-test-gif-27432169

[tepid fiber]

Gifs I can hear

[hazy kettle]

"That's right - it goes in the square hole!"
"Sobbing and crying"

[upper pasture]

I mean isn’t there a bunch of quests (or at least a few) that we haven’t seen that will explain/show the destruction of dalaran so there is time for them to show them being surprised that Xal was disguised as him. They are intentionally hiding that part of the story until launch.

Like launch of TWW isn’t going to be how it is on beta we don’t just randomly wake up under the rumble with no idea what happened.

[little hound]

The entire Dalaran thing is encrypted until release for that event. Which is Expansion launch.

I believe we'll go to dalaran in 3 days for the pre-patch event, but the destruction itself is part of the Intro questline to Isle of Dorne.

[upper pasture]

yeah, i know. so it's kinda pointless to be like " i can't believe they didn't question him returning or blizzard really didn't explain him coming back what lazy writing" we really don't know what unfolds during the battle of dalaran so.....we really can't begin to judge whether or not it is good yet

[silent urchin]

We already saw them asking him about where he's been

although we didn't see an answer

[little hound]

I mean, people were bitchin on day 1 of BETA About things not working like..
C'mon..Its fuckin BETA..

[upper pasture]

and? usually peoples first response to friends returning isn't locking them up to question them. the characters can be suspicious and still treat them like a normal person

[silent urchin]

actually I guess they weren't really asking him much. Misremembered the few quotes we'd seen

[sullen dawn]

It's a bit more than friends

It's a ruling council of one of the most powerful groups on Azeroth, who is often part of top secret military affairs

[silent urchin]

Xalatath is also a weird old voidy thing with lots of mind altering magic

[upper pasture]

even more so. they have little reason to question him at the current state

[sullen dawn]

Some guy disappearing and showing up again years later after being presumably dead is gonna get a few security checks before being brought back onto the council

So they have a lot of reason to question him

[upper pasture]

i guess they better question Auduin too then

[sullen dawn]

Yeh they should

[upper pasture]

i mean he is the king of SW

[acoustic kraken]

auduin gonna turn on us callin it

[sullen dawn]

If he was going to take the crown back, I would hope he is questioned thoroughly

[acoustic kraken]

yall talking about mind control earlier. look at that trailer. man strugglin

[sullen dawn]

But he's not taking the crown back rn

Whether as archmage is taking his position back

So it is different

[acoustic kraken]

i dont think he'll die, or be a raid boss now that ive thought more about it. but i think itll be a confrontation

have to slap him

[sullen dawn]

I don't think anduin will turn on us

He's not fit to lead but he's not an enemy

[acoustic kraken]

i think its gonna be like a grab em by the collar and shake some sense into him moment

get him in the game fully

like quit fighting your past demons there's current ones

[sullen dawn]

I'm more interested in the dwarves tbh

Moria, Magni, Bran etc..

Lessssgo dwarf focus

[acoustic kraken]

lost dwarves too lessgo

[sullen dawn]

Something not many people are talking about

[acoustic kraken]

grew up watching my older brother play that and he'd let me try some when he'd get stuck

[sullen dawn]

The whole of the surviving sons of lothar are in TWW by end of campaign

[acoustic kraken]

every faction should be by the end tbh, cuz its a thing that threatens all the world

[upper pasture]

was he "taking his position back" or was he coming into dalaran "to help with XYZ" or coming back to check in like. there's really no point to question someone so harshly or accuse someone of wrong doing for being off doing their own thing (especially when it was someone who already was in good standing with them)
Xal using the archmage to infiltrate and destroy dalaran is showing that the mages ARE arrogant.

but also more to the point there is still the gap between what we've seen and what happens for the story to be explained

more time for khadgar be like "archmage.....who is back...wait a second"

[sullen dawn]

Alleria, Turalyon, Danath, Kurdran all showing up

[sullen dawn]

Not id they were just "showing up", but he's given his position as archmage back

That's a high security risk position

[upper pasture]

and? it shows the arrogance of the mages to which Xal exploits. should they have vetting him before returning him to power? in a perfect world sure. if they vetting him and stopped the attack on dalaran how would you rather to story take place then? if anything the council is seeing a war hero return who they've already known to do good things and offer him his seat back on the council since kalec left to be a dragon.

the whole point is mistakes need to be made for the story to progress. if they were able to repeal all attacks then well....we'd still have dalaran and no TWW or we could have TWW but just one less reason to hate Xal

[hazy kettle]

That is what I agree on. Khadgar making this mistake, who's lost (at least) Cordana to his own blunders, would (since, yes, we don't know for sure what will happen) feel like a pretty harsh slap to the character imo. Could've sworn I also saw some cutscene-description (it's not implemented on Beta) of "Drenden is revealed to be Xalatath" or smthn. <-< That had me oof-ing loudly.

TL;DR: Yes, we gotta wait. I'm not trying to say the writing is shit / will be shit / has been shit, just a bit apprehensive on how it will play out.

[deep pawn]

Let Xal overpower Dalaran directly. Establish the threat without requiring deception that any reasonable character should sniff out

[upper pasture]

you misunderstand Xal then she's ALL about misdirection and deception.

[sullen dawn]

That's kind of my argument above though. Blizz decide plot direction and then make character behaviours follow that, instead of the other way around

Which is understandable given the nature of the game, but it results in lot of 'blind spots' with the story

[pulsar minnow]

At the same time that doesn’t hit as hard because that’s really not what Xal character-wise is like. Also it hurts the idea of “guilt” that a lot of our main cast are carrying. I think it works better for the characters to be “how they hell have we been so stupid” kinda thing

[deep pawn]

I just think making the greatest mages on the planet look that careless and stupid doesn't feel like good writing.

have one of the Kirin Tor join willingly or something and let her in then.

[upper pasture]

The point is to show they are human, they make mistakes

If they couldn’t make mistakes we wouldn’t have nearly as much story development and depth that we currently have.

[deep pawn]

there's mistakes and then there's stuff that breaks suspension of disbelief.

[upper pasture]

Idk man, the void lady that uses deception and lies get their way using tricks to fool people seems pretty on brand

Sorry that you think the kirin tor are some all power organization that cannot do anything wrong or make mistakes since they are “the most powerful mages”

[deep pawn]

I just can't buy them being so desperate they would suddenly accept a long missing archmage that hasn't been seen since the last time Dalaran was destroyed when just a few damn years ago we dealt with the Legion replacing tons of people in Dalaran.

[austere gazelle]

Only explanation ( and logical one ) IMO, is that he just came back at the same time we arrived. And the council were gauging him to know if they could trust him. But then the radiant song stuff pops up , telogrus is attacked and other stuff happens and it diverted them from inspecting deeper, and it caught them offguard at the last moment

There is also , by Xalatath own words, the fact that she has been watching us from a long time and might perfectly know how to trigger the threads needed to achieve her plans

[pulsar minnow]

I think the point IS that they’re desperate as hell

Khadgar is looking all over the place to figure out what’s going on

And is calling in anyone with info on the harbinger

I think it’d be lame as hell if we just flew Dalaran over to Khaz Algar, and then instantly just get shot out of the sky

Because then it’s not really a “failure” and won’t really make the characters feel any guilt. It would just be “holy shit she’s OP”

[sullen dawn]

That wasn't the point, blizz writers just didn't bother to think about it

[sullen dawn]

Yes it's stupid, but they had plot points to reach, and so those details were skipped over

You can fill it in with your own logic I guess to make it make sense

[austere gazelle]

It's like Nzoth prison location, but I wont relaunch this debate. They decided to place it under Nazjatar because of coolnes and ignored everything around and developed their story around it by throwing chronicles away 😏

[uncut vault]

The Kirin Tor does indeed have a narrative history of arrogance, I'm very glad the narrative is having them address their folly at their lowest point in the aftermath of their city's destruction.

Wait...

[silent urchin]

kirin tor rebuilding seems like the sort of thing that would be side patch content

gotta give it a bit first

[pulsar minnow]

we kinda got bigger fish to fry before we can start rebuilding their city and talk about how bad they failed

we got a crazy void entity juicing up nerubians and trying to summon the Void Lord Dimensius to devour our planet

id like to imagine its all hands on deck right now

[sullen dawn]

Meanwhile Tuskars chilling like nothing happening

[pulsar minnow]

nah they're busy fighting the First Ones

[sullen dawn]

Maybe they are the first ones

👀

[hazy kettle]

Tuskarr first ones confirmed - they are far too relaxed considering what is at stake. That can only mean...
They know they are powerful enough to survive it all, to be there at the end - to sit it out.
If we can't sway them to help us mortals... Then all is doomed.

[pulsar minnow]

I’ve never seen the first ones and tuskarr in the same room

[lone mantle]

I am a progenitor of the Cosmos, and the road to power is paved with those who underestimated me.

[tropic trail]

Im the first one 😌 too

[tropic trail]

I remember the Jailer every time I died he removed 1000 anima from my inventory, and I screamed across the Maw how I hate him. 😅

[glass flicker]

"Maw Walker, you just died a miserable death. You're going to lose Anima Power!"

[opal storm]

i love that earthen can be customised to look like normal dwarves to make "horde dwarf"

[austere gazelle]

na, the First Ones are Murlocs

[austere gazelle]

Are we sure that's dimensius yet? I swear he's the only void lord mentionned every time there is shit incoming

And I ponder if that's really what's going to happen. After all, Xal seems to want to claim the WS for herself, so I don't know where dimensius would fit

[pulsar minnow]

Yes.

[thin warren]

I guess there are multiple void lords

[pulsar minnow]

Xal’Ataths whole goal is to bring about a new black empire

Or something similar to it

[thin warren]

she wants to succeed there were the old Gods failed

[austere gazelle]

That's a good link. But there are still thing eluding us. " The Awakening ( of what? ) " " The world soul will be mine " ... That's not really compatible with summoning a void lord to eat it

[thin warren]

since the old Gods are from the void lords

[pulsar minnow]

She is the Harbinger. She is subservient to the void

The void lords are her masters

She is claiming it in the name of her masters

[austere gazelle]

I want to believe this, there is certainly enough evidence to back it up but... There is something off in all of this

She is described as a " survivor from the depth of time ", was trapped , or hide, in the blade... and all that stuff makes me believe that there is something not told, along with what the titans " hid " about the Black Empire and its " progress and advancement " ( in what field ? )

[tropic trail]

So she is servant of Dimensius and wants him to come and eat Azeroth.

[pulsar minnow]

Yes.

We know when the radiant song began on Ka’resh, Dimensius soon followed to devour the planet

And the radiant song has begun on Azeroth, putting us at risk for that too

Really all we can say for certain

[tropic trail]

We kill her and then Dimensius will arrive and then Algalon rogue slice him from skybox. Perfect cinematic 😌

[crystal pond]

I guess the whole dimensius situation will be in the next expansion

Sadly we know that we will beat his ass but how

[hazy kettle]

Inb4 Dimentius is just sitting in a different plane of reality, I.e. outside of our fabric of reality, going "... what's this? sniff sniff Ah, Xala'tath is done cooking!!"

[feral belfry]

I wonder if the world gets a remake I wonder if she will lead or be a key player in westfall some how.

[austere gazelle]

he is in the void plane. It's been explained that void lord can't manifest into reality because of their void state, which consume tons of energies around them just to tether them to reality. Once energy is depleted, they go " poof " and are sent back in the void dimension

[austere gazelle]

If it follow the pattern of " Harmony " introduced in Shadowlands and manifested in DF through the Crown of Harmony, which is the union of Life and Death manifested unto Azeroth, maybe the void will be merged into the Light and created another force.. The Nether Light or something, the peaceful coexistence of Light And Void.

[crystal pond]

Hmmmmmm

[sullen dawn]

Eat me mommy

[crystal pond]

Probably
Because if we will banish void from azeroth, azeroth will start being overgrown as it was shown in some timelines

[sullen dawn]

I think this will happen when we banosh the titans

Not the void

[crystal pond]

So yeah it will balanced with light, since it being more shown that light is unbalanced as well

[sullen dawn]

It's not the void keeping life in check

More so order and death

[crystal pond]

No
It happens because titans killed old gods and banished void from azeroth

[austere gazelle]

Her dream sing beneath the surface, quiet now, but her song will awake the others

[hazy kettle]

True, I was mainly making a pun tho :p

[sullen dawn]

Life becoming overgrown has nothing to do with the void imo

[crystal pond]

Ye
Check timelines that was shown in df

And then come back

[sullen dawn]

??

[crystal pond]

Its said in the TEXT of the quest

[austere gazelle]

Life is already balanced with death. Since death and decay is in harmony with Life Life can't overgrow stuff. Those forces are " dealt with " for the moment.

[acoustic kraken]

would think anything that lives off the worlds energy and your own and has to consume it would counteract life to a degree

[sullen dawn]

I think death doesn't need to disappear for life to run rampant. Check draneor for example

But the titans have definitely 'muted' the spread of life to a degree

E.g. Aman'Thul ripping the tree out

[austere gazelle]

Midnight will be the balance between Light and Void, and in the end it'll probably manifest physically in the world, like Amirdrassil, but through a giant primordial prismatic snake, a reference to Diablo Trag'Oul, the crooked serpent will be the manifestatoin of the void but once in balance with the Light it'll give birth to a new entity representing the balance of Light and Shadow

[crystal pond]

The probablem is on azeroth all forces must be balanced with one another, or they will start trying to take each other "seats"
Wich is happening with the life when there is no void
Azeroth getting overgrown not because of control but because life taking place because the void is gone

[sullen dawn]

I think 'evil life' is probably post TWW

[crystal pond]

Something like that

[austere gazelle]

TLT will be the last two remaining forces who will need to be balanced, Order and Disorder

[sullen dawn]

Yes, but I'm just saying void isn't the force that keeps life in check

[crystal pond]

Life is balanced with death, but it also must be balanced with other powers

[sullen dawn]

They all balance eachother, but mostly order and death keep life in check

If anything void enhances life

Curse of flesh, chaos etc..

[crystal pond]

If you can see, void actually can improve life way more then order if in balance
But most of the time we see bad stuff because old gods

[sullen dawn]

It wasn't necessarily 'anti life' bad though. It's just not life in the way we know it

[crystal pond]

Void see many possibilities, and order see only that one way wich for the life its meh

[sullen dawn]

The old gods created new forms of life

And as we know the black empire may not have been as terrible as we have been told by titans

[acoustic kraken]

theyll prolly do something like both void and light are life of itself, and not just inanimate forces, and story progresses by which side is more condusive to alliance/horde way of being. so prolly side on light

[sullen dawn]

Life is chaotic, so I believe void is an accelerant for life, not something that slows it down

[acoustic kraken]

some things in life remain unchanged though

[crystal pond]

As well as in other forces

[acoustic kraken]

wouldnt it be cruel to change them cuz thats your way. they have the same hubris as order

[sullen dawn]

Sure, every force includes a little bit of every other force in that way

I just think removing void wouldn't speed up life

Void has mostly been an accelerant for lifes influence

Removing order would have more of an impact

[crystal pond]

But anyway
If we will get light and void balanced, would it mean that we will get order and disorder balanced in 3th expac?

[acoustic kraken]

speed it up in what way? whats the finish line that life is racing towards?

[crystal pond]

Guys if we will kill titans or will do something with them that will be insane

But im in it

[sullen dawn]

Consuming all spirit presumably. Maybe not spirit, but energy anyway. It wants to spread as much as possible

[acoustic kraken]

i didnt know that was a goal for individuals

[sullen dawn]

Not individuals. The force life

Like we see on draneor

[acoustic kraken]

thats the voids goal

[crystal pond]

All forces trying to overmake the other and spread as far as possible

[sullen dawn]

It's the goal of all forces to remove the others

[acoustic kraken]

it isnt, cuz you cant live on if you do that

[sullen dawn]

Yes and for life that's through consumption, mutation and reproduction

[acoustic kraken]

i dont think the end goal of life is to consume all

[crystal pond]

Its is

[sullen dawn]

Exactly, that's the whole reason it's acting against it's own interest (most forces are)

[acoustic kraken]

i dont think there even is an end goal. so void speeding things up isnt a positive. it just removes organism agency and stability

[sullen dawn]

If death removes life there's nothing to die

[acoustic kraken]

but not all things live

[sullen dawn]

If order removes chaos there's nothing to order

[acoustic kraken]

so life still matters

[sullen dawn]

The point is unchecked life will run amuck, and ultimately 'eat itself'

[acoustic kraken]

per the titans words

[crystal pond]

Its was said in chronicle or in the game it self that all 6 forces trying to consume each other and became the only one
But if this happen it will yeet the whole universe (which is possible one of the future that we might face but idk what blizzard preparing for)

[sullen dawn]

How do you explain the overgrowth

[sullen dawn]

Exactly

And any force winning would ultimately be bad

The best result is harmony

Every force has food and aspects. The problem is when we get too much of one

[acoustic kraken]

well how would life overgrow if its balanced with death? the titan's vision assumes that life moves into the space left by void removal, but death could too

[sullen dawn]

If we remove one, it throws off the balance of the others. E.g. removing void would give order lots of power, and light, but probably diminish life

[crystal pond]

I think that Azeroth her self after this also
For the harmony of all 6 forces, but again i have no idea what blizzard after

[acoustic kraken]

and why does void, need a physical presence, to balance out order

[sullen dawn]

It cant when death keeps it in check

But removing void will hurt it

[acoustic kraken]

so then how did the overgrowth happen?

[sullen dawn]

That was gonna be my question to you lmao

[acoustic kraken]

i dont get how it would happen either. or the world lore that has the conclusion that life overgrows to consume itself to non existance

[sullen dawn]

It's the natural progression of something like the botani/overgrowth

Once it runs out of energy sources

[acoustic kraken]

but like that isnt how botany works. most our planets energy comes from the sun for instance. does azeroth just not have photosynthesis now?

[sullen dawn]

It's a fictional game. The overgrowth didn't stop spreading when it reached equilibrium like most plant based ecosystems would

It cant sustain itself purely off the sun

[acoustic kraken]

F im glad i dont plan on paying attention to the quest, cuz even fictional this isnt great story telling lol

wait, if void is banished. why would it even overgrow. thats not ordered

[crystal pond]

So
Look, each seat of power have their own vision how the universe should go
Best example is titans, they want everything being controlled, which is contradicts with other powers, including life
Literally life cannot improve it self while being controlled into perfection (?) which means something that look more like a robot and not actually life being

Or void, its not gonna be a life being, it will be a living nightmare

[acoustic kraken]

should have a lovely garden in that case

[sullen dawn]

I'm saying it wouldn't. I'm saying the opposite

If the void were banished that would hurt life

[acoustic kraken]

no i agree, it just makes no sense that the devs thought this was good set up lol

[sullen dawn]

If order were banished it would help things like the overgrowth

[sullen dawn]

What are you referring to?

[acoustic kraken]

i agree that it makes no sense to have overgrowth

[sullen dawn]

Within the logic of the wow universe, I think it does make sense

[acoustic kraken]

which makes me think the titans lying to us too

[sullen dawn]

Every force wants to spread and destroy the others

There is no 'good' or 'bad force, just good and bad manifestations of them all

The best result is harmony

i.e. listen to the monks :p

[crystal pond]

Or if there will be only life, and life a little bit crazy at being never ending hunting grounds which was shown in the one of the quest/zones

So this is the reason why everything must be in balanced, especially for azeroth

[acoustic kraken]

nah my new theory is that both void and order working together, and afraid life and death working together would kick their asses, so void and order, trying to play us into a war that throws a ton of life force into void to power it up or something. itll make sense later mb

#TeamLife

[sullen dawn]

Nah

[crystal pond]

Nah

[sullen dawn]

Life isn't exempt

We just would see it that way cos we're biased

Unchecked life would be just as bad as unchecked fel

[acoustic kraken]

heck yeah we see it that way cuz we are life less go and take the throne

[crystal pond]

People thought that death is BAD and EVIL now look

Everyone thought that void is BAD and EVIL now we have the whole race and characters

[austere gazelle]

Everything is bad that's why it needs harmony in the cosmos. That's also why the First one put this framework as it is, as all forces are in balance, not through harmony, but through sheer conflits though

Azeroth is what will bring true harmony between forces

[sullen dawn]

We are also death, and order, and destruction, and chaos

We are azeroths children. Our destiny is in harmony

[crystal pond]

Bro you literally sounds like those characters from wow

Sorry 💀

[austere gazelle]

RAISE YOUR EYES TO THE SKIES AND OBSERVE

[sullen dawn]

Haha I'll take that as a compliment :p

[iron hare]

The "first ones" (they don't exist) made a flawed system

The titans came in and ordered everything up to fight the void, ordering up life and death and making everything stagnant and not letting the proper cycle of life and death do it's natural thing

[hazy kettle]

... that's not correct though. o.o Death had the Arbiter flinging us into the 'correct afterlife', meaning the natural flow of death and life was still happening.

Or am I misunderstanding what you meant by that.

[iron hare]

Arbiter is forcing souls to pass on and continue fighting for something, it's very robotic and v orderly

It's not rlly natural cause it kind of goes against the idea of free will

[hazy kettle]

Ardenweald is a place where they get reborn before passing back into the Emerald Dream (at least before everything went to shit), so there's at least one realm where it isn't "continue fighting for something" unless you're saying that death = resting eternally. o:

[iron hare]

Yeah death should be resting externally

[hazy kettle]

But that wasn't ever stated in WoW, was it?

[iron hare]

It's my theory

I realized I should have said imo

[hazy kettle]

Ah, alright, carry on. Didn't realise that, sorry.

[iron hare]

It's more implied

Cause like

You're not really dead if your conscious

Your just alive in a different dimension

[hazy kettle]

I getcha, stuff like "In the Light we are one" doesn't exactly make you think "In the Light we continue to fight by building sky scrapers and working 9/5 jobs"

[iron hare]

Arthas had an actual death

[hazy kettle]

It means a peaceful afterlife where you can just rest and experience joy.

[iron hare]

His soul moved on

[hazy kettle]

N-

Not quite.

Arthas was erased from existence, basically.

[iron hare]

I'm zereth mottos

[hazy kettle]

In Zerelium Abelium.

[iron hare]

Which is basically a death

[hazy kettle]

In Cerebral Palsy

[iron hare]

Garrosh too

Garrosh and arthas were the only two to actually die

[hazy kettle]

Okay, valid, true. My point is just that WoW's afterlife, WoW's entire in-lore universe, which spans the 6 realms (void, light, order, chaos, life, death) does have outer bounds... But Arthas, from our current understanding, hasn't exactly transcended.

More like... been pooped out of existence, ceased entirely, IRL death.

... wait, nevermind, we have the same point in that.

[iron hare]

Zoval somehow managed to gain free will, but because (imo) he still has the creation of the titans in him ( he turns robotic) he still has the ideology of the titans

Turn everyone into agreeing with himself to fight for the greater good

[hazy kettle]

Okay, just to recap - First Ones don't exist / weren't as grand and all-encompasing as the denizens of the Shadowlands believed them to be, as in actuality it was the Titans who swooped in and ordered everything.

That's what you're reasoning here, correct? 😮

[iron hare]

Imo first ones = titans, In denusers wow maybe that wasn't the case but no way metzen is gonna let anyone make a super villian after build up of 20 years

[hazy kettle]

Hmm. Valid point, given the titans have been a thing (implied or in actuality) for 20 years. So ye, would make sense to use them - if crafted well - as the pen-ultimate villains.

Against what though, given that they 'ordered everything'? Void and Light? Or something beyond the 6 realms?

[iron hare]

First ones are titans, they made a pantheon of death as a reflection of themselves, and to govern over the shadowlands (Primus = norganon winter queen = eonar, jailer = sargeras (they have the exact same story) to create an army to fight the void

[iron hare]

Void imo

Void and fel are chaotic substances, old gods are literally beings of pure life (curse of flesh)

Sargeras tried to make the twisting nether his own shadowlands by forcing Argus to create a never ending stream of death

[hazy kettle]

Eyo wait, hol' up, there's a lot to discuss in just that sentence alone. What do you mean "exact same story" - Sargeras initially won against his fellow Titans and clapped their cheeks (destroyed their bodies).

[iron hare]

But we stopped it and the titans now have control of the actual arbiter of death, pretending to guide us into helping them

[hazy kettle]

I struggle to follow that train of thought currently. 👀

[iron hare]

Here I'll help

Sargeras saw the void and made his own army trying to stop it right

The whole point of the burning legion is to fight the void

[hazy kettle]

He saw 'the terrible horrors of the void' and made his own army trying to stop it right there - new canon, however, is that the Dreadlords convinced him how terrible the void is.

👀

And the Dreadlords are a creation of Sire Denathrius.

[iron hare]

There's a theory that they actually are not and that's a red herring