#ip_rights_violations

1 messages · Page 68 of 1

royal charm
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I don't think anyone is arguing that the concept of fair use does or doesn't exist. It undeniably does. But fair use is for research, teaching, etc while at the same time having a limited impact on the creator - not for modifying and using for your own enjoyment.

muted grove
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No, it's not.

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Objectively false

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Fair use was established to accommodate the 1st amendment when dealing with copyright.

royal charm
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Yeah

muted grove
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US laws abridging freedom of speech, need to pass the strict scrutiny test.

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fair use was the means of achieving that.

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To say it's for research, teaching, and only that is also factually wrong.

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You can be well within your rights while violating someones copyright. So long as you satisfy the fair use standard. RE: Google v Oracle.

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To say it doesn't apply to modding, is fundamentally misunderstanding what copyright law is and is meant to do.

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As the supreme court has stated repeatedly, (paraphrasing but, in essence) works shall not be judged on fitness for copyright protection based on the skill of the artist.

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Just because modding is usually non commercial, doesn't mean it somehow gets more protection under the law.

royal charm
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You just said "objectively false" and then proceeded to provide your own interpretation. Google v Oracle is a case where Google used basic structures in creating an entirely new beast of software. That's like looking at someone's PBO/config structure to make your own config for an entirely separate addon (which would be allowed by any reasonable person I think).

muted grove
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I didn't provide my interpretation, I provided case precedent.

royal charm
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You interpreted the case to be more similar than it is, in order to grant your argument precedent.

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Google v Oracle has basically no similarities to someone reuploading an Arma 3 mod, or modifying an Arma 3 mod for their community without permission from the author.

muted grove
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The way these things work in the simplest, most idealized way is the House passes a bill, congress approves, it gets signed by the president, and then the court system defines that law through thousands of court cases.

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Google V Oracle is basically the equivalent of someone making a config patch.

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They want their thing to work, so they borrow the necessary code from another work and no more.

royal charm
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What.. who's making the argument that you can't make a config patch?

muted grove
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No one I hope?

royal charm
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Then why are you bringing up Google v Oracle? To argue against the wind?

muted grove
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But clearly we have some in here that think making config patches is the same as making a derivative work.

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Which it's very much not.

royal charm
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Don't think anyone here thinks that.

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Unless you're just copy-pasting a config to make a cfgpatch, which isn't how it works..

muted grove
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HorribleGoat seem'd to think no derivatives means you can't make config patches.

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Either way, it was someone way up in chat.

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Also it was more so because someone pulled up BIKI's misguided interpretation of fair use.

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Which, I suppose I get.

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I see it as them giving people information and advice that will pull them more towards a safe fair use case, than it is to teach them the actual fair use doctrine that would give them plenty more rights but might lead to more people getting in trouble if they don't actually pay attention to the details.

royal charm
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Fair use doesn't even apply to making a cfgpatch

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When you make a cfgpatch, you don't need to include any code of the author, you just call it as a dependency, which is granted by your right to download the software and use it. Fair use would be if you wanted limited additional rights, but you don't need those for a cfgpatch, unless like I said above, you're copying structure for usage.

muted grove
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Yeah sounds about right.

royal charm
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And looking at HorribleGoats message, he never argued that making a cfgpatch violated anything

muted grove
royal charm
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Think you're misinterpreting him. He's saying you can't do anything to their work. Making a config patch does not require touching their work at all. I've made cfgPatches often without even downloading or looking at the mod I'm making a cfgPatch for. Just need to know the classname, which is front-end information all users have.

muted grove
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He was replying to my comment about configs, so idk how I can misinterpret that.

royal charm
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I don't think that's what he was replying to.

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You type a lot of words and jump from idea to idea, and make big statements and then attach facts that are arguably semi-related. It's a difficult conversation to track lol

muted grove
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Seems pretty clear to me.

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"If license of the mod says you may not do such thing, then you can't make such thing?"
"Make what"
"Anything"

Seems pretty clear to me that also includes you know, anything.

Which wouldn't be true, because no one can prohibit you from violating their copyrights so long as what it is you do, falls under fair use.

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Also yeah, it's kind of hard to keep track of the conversation because people will interject with random comments, steering the topic about.

royal charm
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If the mod author says I cannot have rocky road ice cream while using their mod, is that enforceable? I don't think he meant "anything in the world", it seems he meant "anything that modifies the mod"

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but either way, you can argue that with him yourself 🙂

indigo thorn
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Again, you can specifically make licenses which take precedence over fair use. So the "Which wouldn't be true, because no one can prohibit you from violating their copyrights so long as what it is you do, falls under fair use." statement actually isn't necessarily always true.
Like I say, I'm not sure if the ND license is such an example though.

muted grove
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Good luck with that, you'd have to pay a corporate attorney a buttload of money to draft up an agreement that would be remotely enforceable. I somehow doubt your run of the mill mod author would be proficient enough to make one even close to it.

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I know I sure can't, but I've read plenty of court cases where people tried to pull slick ones got laughed out of court.

indigo thorn
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I'm not sure myself but the basic rule of copyright law/fundamental premise is that a copyright owner is entitled to control how to license (if at all) to those who want to use the work.

royal charm
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IIRC, licenses and contracts can override fair use if they're something binding that the subscriber entered in to. Fair use cannot be overridden by "notification" style licenses or disclaimers (i.e, if it says "don't do this" on a download page, that's a "notice" of license)

fluid elbow
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define me APL-ND License if any kind of Addon or Mod is under this License

royal charm
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But pretty much all fair use instances are decided on a case by case basis

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@fluid elbow I'd assume, and I'm not a lawyer, that fair use would supersede APL-ND in some cases, and not in others. It'd probably be up to the judge to use the other involved factors (what it was used for, how it negatively affects the author, etc) to decide whether it was fair use.

worn sleet
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Here’s a novel idea. Stick to the license rather than finding niche loopholes that barely hold together. Just a thought

fluid elbow
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no derivates means in my opinion also no compatible patches, because its going to be a derivate, also no fair use or whatever

royal charm
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By compatible patches, you mean cfgPatch?

muted grove
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It's incredibly rare for agreements to override laws btw. It does happen but it's quite strict, I forget what standard it is they use.

royal charm
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A cfgPatch requires touching nothing of the addon. An example would be cfgPatches I use for my unit to increase armor values on the armored vehicles we use. Basically a 10 line compat, that I write entirely myself. I just call the vehicle class, make a new class (vehicle_1), and write a config for vehicle_1.

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A "compat patch", I'm not sure what you mean by that - maybe somebody integrating ACE into a mod, or something of that sort, would likely require more than a cfgPatch

fluid elbow
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If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you may not distribute the modified material.

royal charm
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Aye but a cfgPatch is distributed seperately.

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For example, if I made an armor increase to a tank from RHS via a cfgPatch

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You would have to download and run RHS, while also running said cfgPatch.

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Because the cfgPatch includes absolutely zero content from RHS.

muted grove
royal charm
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@muted grove if you modified someone's config file, that's modifying material, and thus, illegal under the license.

fluid elbow
muted grove
royal charm
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In general meaning, code that someone else wrote, being copyrightable...

muted grove
royal charm
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If someone else wrote a config, you can't just rip their config.

fluid elbow
muted grove
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Again, depends on what the actual work contains.

royal charm
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You can make a cfgPatch from scratch, you cannot just rip someone elses config and edit it.

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A config contains... configuration code.

fluid elbow
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so thats why i dont get it why you want to make such much work for..... nothing?

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if you make it standalone as yours = you ripp it

fluid jewel
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of course you need the original files, we're talking about config patches

fluid elbow
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so you need the original files for a comp patch

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yeah but she want to make all stuff in one instead of subscribing 100 mods

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with comp patch

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will not work without subscribing the original files

muted grove
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Why do you keep latching onto that?

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It was one example, when discussing 6D.

royal charm
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@carmine folio that's not a cfgpatch, that's stealing

muted grove
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It's dead, leave it be.

carmine folio
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huh

muted grove
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And no @royal charm, it wouldn't be, because that's not how it was framed.

royal charm
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lmao whoops

carmine folio
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Wrong @ @royal charm

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Haha

royal charm
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there are like twenty sentries

carmine folio
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Scared me for a sec

royal charm
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our discord is secure, so many Sentrys 😉

carmine folio
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i got you

fluid elbow
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Maybe i should do Naruto Avatar 😄

muted grove
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The original question was, with proper permissions, could you reupload compat mods into a single mod file. It was regarding 6D and nothing else.

carmine folio
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Oh what the heck

muted grove
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You're literally trolling at this point @fluid elbow

fluid elbow
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but I like Obito more 😄

muted grove
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That or you are purposefully just ignoring the record.

fluid elbow
muted grove
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Yes, I was asking in the context of 6D, if that would be allowed.

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If I had all the necessary permissions to re-upload.

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Because someone decided to misinterpret 6D, into meaning something it never remotely meant.

worn sleet
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Clear something up then, are you going to use the mods that the compat is for?

muted grove
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Which, we already settled that issue. The answer is, yes I very much could do that. Granted I had the authors permission to re-upload.

royal charm
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Bruh that's not a compat patch, that's reuploading and repacking, which is illegal in most licenses.

fluid elbow
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thats why im asking again @royal charm

fluid jewel
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"granted I had the authors permission"

royal charm
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but don't call it a compat patch

fluid jewel
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that's a separate topic

royal charm
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cause you get everyone out with pitchforks against valid, legal, cfgPatch changes

muted grove
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Stop conflating two separate issues.

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Like, completely separate issues.

fluid elbow
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just dont do it 😉

muted grove
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Just don't tell me what to do?

worn sleet
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Defensive much

muted grove
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If a mod author wants to give me permission to make derivatives, or combine patches, or whatever it might be, I'mma do that. It isn't any of your business.

echo orchid
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btw, fair use is not govern by us laws

worn sleet
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If you have permission it's fine if you don't then you can't

muted grove
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Fair use in the US is governed by 17 U.S.C. § 107

echo orchid
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yea, and?

muted grove
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You said it's not govern by us laws?

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We're talking about the workshop, which is governed by Washington State laws and US Federal laws, so how is fair use not governed by US laws?

echo orchid
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we are talking about mods, not where these are hosted

worn sleet
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That has nothing to do with a mod and it's contents

muted grove
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But it does.

worn sleet
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It does not

muted grove
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If I get a mod from the workshop, it's automatically governed by US laws.

worn sleet
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Nope

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So wrong

echo orchid
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nope

muted grove
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facedesks

echo orchid
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just the upload is

muted grove
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Yes, there's such considerations as where you live vs the author, but in general, when the mod is uploaded to the workshop, you're playing by the star spangled banner rules.

worn sleet
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No, not even close

muted grove
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Ok bud

echo orchid
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a steam workshop upload doesn’t make a mod. it’s just a platform for distribution, it could be hosted anyplace

worn sleet
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No, ok you. Stop trying to suggest that US laws apply to the world because of a content platform

muted grove
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Sure, I'm not talking about anywhere else. I'm specifically talking about where any potential infringement might take place.

echo orchid
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as such, fair use doesn’t apply to anything but (maybe) that upload

muted grove
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Which in this case would be the workshop.

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Which would fall under the preview of US Federal law.

worn sleet
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😑

echo orchid
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again, wrong. because i took down things from anything from google drive to some norvegian host

muted grove
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How is that wrong?

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Those places weren't the workshop, so outside the scope of this conversation?

worn sleet
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The workshop isn't a be all end all of legality with the content that's uploaded to it

echo orchid
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what you are saying is that a mod is fair use as long as it is uploaded to some us distribution website??

muted grove
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No?

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Don't make me pull up the "So what you're saying is" meme.

echo orchid
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so why are we talking about fair use exclusively in relation to steam workshop then?

fluid jewel
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because that's basically what this channel is about?

gleaming fable
worn sleet
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^ Context is key though for that to apply

fluid jewel
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and where 99% of the ip rights violations talked about here are found?

echo orchid
fluid jewel
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it isn't, but that's what 99% of it is about

muted grove
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It's not but

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for simplicity, this subject is exclusively that.

fluid jewel
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I can't remember seeing anything here about something that wasn't a workshop upload

gleaming fable
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By using steam, you also acknowledge and agree that the venue is Washington for these types of issues.

random marsh
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If both mod authors allow it, why not make the compats yourself? Then you don't have to worry about permission to reupload somebody else's.

fluid jewel
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some armaholic stuff a looong time ago

muted grove
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Because I'm not dealing with 15000 caveats, to accomodate some 3rd world country's weird copyright laws.

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It doesn't pertain to me, or pretty much 99% of the people in this chat.

echo orchid
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it’s called europe, there are copyright laws as well as fair use clauses

muted grove
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I'm well aware of that.

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I live in Europe.

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But I'm not debating European laws because again, that gets too broad and we literally can't have a functioning conversation if we did that.

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You'd have to qualify your qualifiers with caveats of caveats to make even the simplest statement.

worn sleet
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That's always how the conversation goes though because of how laws work, it's uphill all the time

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Better just to stick to licences, get permission and go from there, or do nothing

rustic copper
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You represent and warrant to us that you have sufficient rights in all User Generated Content to grant Valve and other affected parties the licenses described under A. and B. above or in any license terms specific to the applicable Workshop-Enabled App or Workshop page. This includes, without limitation, any kind of intellectual property rights or other proprietary or personal rights affected by or included in the User Generated Content.

You furthermore represent and warrant that the User Generated Content, your submission of that Content, and your granting of rights in that Content does not violate any applicable contract, law or regulation.

Not sure how Valve can be any more clear about this topic...

muted grove
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We can safely assume, that if a copyright violation happened on steam, it would be dealt with through the DMCA, which would be governed by Washington State law(valve is based out of WS) and US federal law. Sure once you get to court other laws and things will apply depending on situation.

rustic copper
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Especially the last sentence...

echo orchid
muted grove
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Sure. Which, depends entirely on where it's hosted.

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If the platform is hosted in the EU, you'd have to follow EU copyright laws.

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US, US laws apply.

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There's some familiarity and cross law agreement stuff.

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Like WIPA I think?

rustic copper
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Wut? Fair use has nothing to do with where it's hosted... It's about how it's used

muted grove
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Fair use has everything to do with where it's hosted, because fair use isn't universal.

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It differs from country to country

echo orchid
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it’s actually pretty much 1:1 us with europe

muted grove
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One country might not have any fair use laws. While another might have much more liberal fair use laws than most.

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Again, depends on the country.

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Poland for example, gives way more rights to the author than other EU countries do.

echo orchid
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sure, us has the 1st ammendment right, but that doesn’t help with fair use much, does it?

muted grove
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They have a rather long history of protecting moral rights.

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1st amendment is literally what fair use is all about lol (In the US, because now I'm having to qualify everything)

rustic copper
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for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright
Not sure how mods apply here

muted grove
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"Such as"

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Does not mean "Limited to"

rustic copper
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So you say "if it fits me, it's allowed"... That's not how it works...

echo orchid
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fair enough, in this case it would go under what precisely

random marsh
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uhm

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modding is nowhere near "such as" what was listed in that statement

echo orchid
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where is the fair use here?

muted grove
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It's complicated, I explained parts of it pretty well way up in the chat.

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If people would actually bother to read instead of dogpiling.

echo orchid
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sorry, not going 200+ messages back

muted grove
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Not reposting for the 50th time.

echo orchid
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pretty sure if you expalined it, you could sort of summerize

fluid jewel
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it was explained like 5 times already

muted grove
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"the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;" is the actual language of the law.

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Not "for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright"

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Those are just already clearly established permissible uses under fair use.

rustic copper
muted grove
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So what I said, it's what's already permitted, not everything that is permitted and only that.

rustic copper
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Those are examples which are most likely to be allowed, and related cases my be permitted as well.
However just saying "it's non-commercial, so allowed" does not work

muted grove
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If it's neither commercial, nor for educational purposes, then the latter part falls neutral, and the first part dictates the factor alone.

echo orchid
muted grove
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Sure.

echo orchid
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so it isn’t one sided

muted grove
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It all comes down to the purpose and character of the use.

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Whether that is commercial or educational, is just an augmenting factor of the first factor.

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It's not a requirement that it be either or.

echo orchid
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sure even some torrent file share wanted to use fair use as defense

rustic copper
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You just point out a single factor which is used to determine fair use, not a definition of fair use

muted grove
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There's no single factor that determines fair use @rustic copper

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All 4 factores are considered, but through case law, the first factor weighs the most heavily out of the 4.

echo orchid
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yes, but the lines based on what it is judged as fair use are pretty self explanatory

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again, how would such a mod be fair use based one these 4 criterias

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without actually pointing to a single large case like google va oracle

sharp void
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Just jumping in to say Larisa brought up fair use in regards to config patches, not full mods

echo orchid
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yes that created precedance, but it surely isn’t the norm

muted grove
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A config mod would imo be fair use because it fixes, adds something new, is complimentary and dependant on the work in question, it's non commercial.

The configs being used in question are factional, and as such generally don't benefit from copyright protections.

The amount used would be minimal, only the required amount if any.

It would not usurp the market because it's wholly dependent on the first mod, if anything it would benefit the mod.

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Now if we start talking about solid mods, the whole lot.

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It gets more complicated, suddenly you're talking about artistic input and creativity instead of factual information and ideas.

fluid elbow
muted grove
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He can, but he also can't prevent me from fixing what I think is broken so long as it follows the law.

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Sure, I'd prefer to have permission, but so long as the use and conduct is within my right then I can.

fluid elbow
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thats the point why people looking for obfuscating their stuff

fluid jewel
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what does obfuscation have to do with config patching?

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you can make a config patch for an obfuscated mod

muted grove
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I don't want to get into bypassing encryption because that's another can of worms.

fluid elbow
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sure you can but today people think they can do what they want

fluid jewel
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remember that you don't need to open any mod files to make config patches

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you can look at things in config viewer and then go from that to make a config patch

rustic copper
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But it would still not be fair use... It would be derivative work...

muted grove
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I don't think I can do whatever I want. For example I'm not going to go rip RHS textures, that's against the law and I really have no business doing it.

fluid elbow
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you would be happy if someone edits your mod just like he wants?

muted grove
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@rustic copper I already defined derivative work for you.

fluid jewel
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can you actually just stay on topic for once

muted grove
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In accordance with US copyright laws

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and config patches are not derivative works at all

fluid jewel
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"config patches are fair use" "oh yeah do you want people to take your mods and steal them"?

echo orchid
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in which case because dependency, so is the base mod

muted grove
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The mod would in this case be non commercial because you can't sell Arma mods.

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The compat mod anyways

echo orchid
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how are you prohibiting commeticial prcatices

muted grove
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Sorry, what?

echo orchid
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you cannot sell mods sure, but you can use them commercially

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see monetization rules

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for servers

muted grove
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Sure, well.

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You'd have to comply with all the necessary laws.

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You're moving into edge case territory which needs a lot more clarification before it can be of any use here.

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Like, is the original mod authorized for monetization etc.

echo orchid
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considering fair uses cases

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are judged independently

muted grove
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I don't know.

echo orchid
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i am not trying to pull a leg

muted grove
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Also what do you mean by fair use judged independently?

echo orchid
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as in you can assume it is fair use

muted grove
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You mean the factors evaluated separately or case by case from mod to mod etc?

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I haven't looked into fair use and monetization of mods tbh.

echo orchid
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i might dissagree, a judge will deal the versict

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also, fair use is usually used in defense

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i haven’t heard anyone suing over fair use

muted grove
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It's historically been used as a defense to infringement yes.

echo orchid
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but using it in defense for being sued fot copyright infringements

muted grove
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But for the purposes here, WA State and Federal law etc (9th circuit court)

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Then fair use, is an expressly authorized right.

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Not just an affirmative defense.

echo orchid
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i am trying to say there will be no conlussion on the subject

muted grove
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Sure, I'm under no pretense that what I'm saying would be final.

echo orchid
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just as there isn’t a very clear clarification (as in black and white) and/or definition about how fair use is deffined

muted grove
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I'm just trying to say there's more to these sorts of things than just "Mod author said this isn't ok" and that's it.

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There's lots of grey areas, and lots of things mod authors might do that just wouldn't fly in courts.

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To summarize in short, my whole point is that copyright exists to balance the right of the author with the right of the public.

echo orchid
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in short, you might find it fair use, i might say it is not.

gleaming fable
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"Fair use" is indeed just a defense Which means that when you are sued, you can claim that your usage fell under fair use. And the judge/jury may or may not agree. But it's not some kind of magic shield that stops people from being able to take action.

muted grove
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You're both right and wrong @gleaming fable

echo orchid
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it is always best to just follow the eula (as bi stance currently is)

gleaming fable
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It's just a defense.

muted grove
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You're wrong in that it's just a defense, its as I said, in this case an expressly authorized right.

echo orchid
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that asume on your own what is fair use and what isn’t

muted grove
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Unless you want to go tell the 9th circuit court and the supreme court they're wrong.

gleaming fable
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It is definitely a right. But again. It's a defense. You have to argue in court that what you did is actually fair use.

muted grove
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On the latter part, yes anyone can bring any action.

gleaming fable
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You can't just say "it's fair use" and have legal action magically dissapear or not happen.

muted grove
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@gleaming fable Sure, but it has legal bearing on if it's just an affirmative defense or an expressly authorized right.

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Like you said, author can still bring the action.

gleaming fable
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It's an affirmative defense.

echo orchid
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in short, i might dmca your sw workshop upload

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valve will comply

muted grove
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You can send a counter notification.

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But

echo orchid
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it is up to you to take legal action against me

muted grove
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You should ONLY do that if you're absolutely sure you're within fair use territory.

echo orchid
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so you end up doing what?

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sueing for fair use?

muted grove
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Also, you as the DMCA issuer, need to make a subjective good faith fair use analysis before issuing the takedown or you're committing fraud.

echo orchid
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just letting you know that i had counter claims of rhs reuploads that claimed fair use

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and valve disn’t even blink when it took it down

muted grove
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I'm sure they didn't like the court notice within the next 10 business days or whatever.

echo orchid
muted grove
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That's the actual law.

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If you don't consider fair use before sending it you're violating Section 512(f) of the DMCA

gleaming fable
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In general I have a hard time imagining a "fair use" scenario involving something like an arma mod on the workshop. Compared to something like using part of someone else's video in your video about whatever

rustic copper
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that copyright owners must consider “fair use” before filing a copyright take-down notice
I considered it, and didn't do it... Now take it down

echo orchid
muted grove
#

"It held that “[b]ecause the DMCA requires consideration of fair use prior to sending a takedown notification, a jury must determine whether Universal’s actions were sufficient to form a subjective good faith belief about the video’s fair use or lack thereof.” But it held that if a copyright owner “ignores or neglects [the Ninth Circuit’s] unequivocal holding that it must consider fair use before sending a takedown notification, it is liable for damages” under the DMCA."

echo orchid
#

as in yeah, not gonna dmca some poor booke because he used some of my assets in a monetized video

muted grove
#

Lenz v Universal

echo orchid
#

but that isn’t the case here

#

it is derrivative work

rustic copper
#

And of course; if something may fall under fair use you should consider it before filing a DMCA...
But if it's clearly a breach of license/eula/copyright, there's no reason to think about fair use... Because it doesn't apply

echo orchid
#

not accidentaly used footage from a mod like in lenz case

gleaming fable
muted grove
#

Alright, I'mma just block Grez at this point.

#

@gleaming fable No, you need to make a subjective, good faith analysis of fair use.

#

As in, you actually need to try to interpret the law and evaluate if it's right or wrong.

gleaming fable
#

Right, and that subjective, good faith analysis might be very quick if it's a clear cut case.

muted grove
#

You could be entirely wrong, but so long as you did a subjective good faith attempt, you're fine.

random marsh
#

Just to clarify: are you saying modifying someone's mod to work with another mod is fair use?

muted grove
#

Depends.

echo orchid
#

lol

random marsh
#

Under the guise of "fixing" it?

rustic copper
muted grove
#

No, you're just trolling at this point and it's derailing the conversation.

#

Anyways, Aglos.

echo orchid
muted grove
#

It depends on the character of the work.

#

Are you just editing factual things? You're probably fine.

random marsh
#

Editing factual things?

echo orchid
#

he actually specifically explained he is talking about compatibility patches

muted grove
#

Damage values, ace ballistic coefficients etc.

rustic copper
#

I just quote official texts which you are pointing out in a twisted way 🤷‍♂️

random marsh
#

For example: X user made a helmet mod. You want helmet mod to use ACE hearing protection.

muted grove
#

If you're talking about modifying mesh files, that's a whole different story.

echo orchid
#

ace balistics coeficients are actually bespoke cofig entries not available in vanilla

muted grove
#

Now suddenly the character of the work is artistic, not factual.

random marsh
#

I already told you what I am talking about.

muted grove
#

That is copyright protectable

echo orchid
#

just like other mods

upper wing
#

If you don't create a compat but editing pre-existing "compiled"/pbo'ed code

i'm not sure it would fall under fair use ? ThinkPika

random marsh
#

I am talking about a compat that adds functionality from one mod, to another.

muted grove
#

@random marsh Ok, in that case, so long as you're only taking what you must and only that and nothing more, i.e class names etc.

#

You should be just fine

random marsh
#

How? I am modifying somebody else's work.

muted grove
#

Yes, and?

echo orchid
muted grove
#

So long as you write the config patch your self and don't steal it from someone else, and all you do is replace and change values, you're creating something new, it's not a derivative.

random marsh
#

Alright

muted grove
#

A derivative would be me taking your helmet, uploading it and the new config file on the workshop.

echo orchid
#

example - what about mods specific config entries that are not part of vanilla, but are mods specific

gleaming fable
random marsh
#

You aren't though. You are modifying something else to have further functionality.

muted grove
#

That's taking substantial, copyright protectable elements.

#

With configs, they're factual, they don't benefit from copyright protection.

random marsh
#

You are not creating anything "new" by modifying a helmet to have ACE hearing protection.

muted grove
#

You can't copyright something that's factual.

gleaming fable
#

On this episode of the Arnchair Lawyer channel

muted grove
#

You are though.

echo orchid
#

so in this case most of ace specific coeficients, just like rhs specific config entries could not be used, yeah?

muted grove
#

You're adding the functionality of hearing protection to something that didn't have it.

gleaming fable
#

is source code "factual" like a config file?

TIL: You can't own source code as IP because it's "factual"

echo orchid
#

all are tagged (suffix) and not available in the core game

muted grove
#

@gleaming fable Don't twist my words please.

gleaming fable
#

It's a valid, similar example.

muted grove
#

Source code, could be anything.

random marsh
muted grove
#

Generally, code that makes up a program that does something, is copyright protectable.

#

Sure parts of it might not be

#

like simple algorithms.

gleaming fable
muted grove
#

And those can be freely copied, but the whole, how you write it up etc.

#

That benefits from copyright protections.

#

Like a whole function, that does something. Could be copyright protected.

#

@random marsh It's new, because it didn't exist before.

echo orchid
#

are compatibility patches derrivative work?

random marsh
#

IMO yes

muted grove
#

Again depends.

random marsh
#

(not an expert on this but it seems fairly obvious)

muted grove
#

Allow me to quote BI

random marsh
muted grove
#

« You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means » – Iñigo Montoya

echo orchid
rustic copper
#

You can't claim an if statement under copyright, or a class structure... But if you copy&paste stuff it is breaking copyright... No matter if it's code, configs or other content...

random marsh
#

It's about as new as taking a copy of the mona lisa and drawing a smiley face on it and saying you made it

echo orchid
# random marsh IMO yes

of course it is. if it is a compatibility patch, it is dependent on said mods that make them compatible with each other

#

so the derivative part is as obvious as a barn

#

so not really sure what depends actually means @muted grove

random marsh
#

You take the class X_Helmet and add ACE hearing protection to it. What "new" thing have you made? All you've done is taken 2 existing pieces of work and meshed them together essentially.

fluid elbow
random marsh
#

Sure, X user may allow you to modify his helmet within reason, but you don't have an inherent right to do so.

muted grove
random marsh
#

If X user has serious beef with ACE, he might find the idea of making his work compatible with ACE to be a horrid one.

muted grove
#

You draw on things you've seen etc.

random marsh
#

It is his right to stop you from using his IP as such.

muted grove
#

Very few people are actually capable of coming up with brand new original ideas, and they're pretty boss at it too.

echo orchid
muted grove
#

Even Lovecraft drew on weird stuff when he created his stuff.

#

The point is, art is pretty much all copying but expressing it in your way.

#

Your expression of the work, is what's copyrighted.

#

The idea, can't be.

random marsh
#

Making a new 3d model of the same helmet as X user and adding ACE hearing to it is not the same as taking X user's helmet and adding ACE hearing to it

echo orchid
#

because what you are saying is

  1. you definately break any non-derrivate license on purpose
  2. you then claim fair use
muted grove
#

But a compat file isn't taking their helmet.

rustic copper
#

Looking at music, which is sampled to death by now, is probably the biggest business which fights with copyright. And that is how it works; if you didn't create it, as a whole or parts of it, you have to follow copyright laws and can't just say "it's fair use" or use any other excuse...

echo orchid
#

is that it?

muted grove
#

It's saying that "Hey, you helmet, you're going to do his now"

random marsh
muted grove
#

In some sense I guess? But it's a permissible derivative if anything.

random marsh
#

How?

muted grove
#

Because you'd be using factual, non copyrightable code.

random marsh
#

His 3d model and textures are copyrightable.

muted grove
#

The config file is one giant fact sheet, it says what the helmet does, what texture it uses.

#

Yes

#

They are

#

And it doesn't matter, because you're not copying those.

random marsh
#

So, you cannot use them in making a helmet with ACE hearing protection.

muted grove
#

You're only saying to the mod that "Hey, you're going to have this attached to you now"

#

You're not though.

rustic copper
#

The term ACE_Helmet is already protected under copyright, since it's unique to ACE.

muted grove
#

I'm not sure that's true.

#

"In general, copyright does not protect individual words, short phrases, and slogans; familiar symbols or designs; or mere variations of typographic ornamentation, lettering, or coloring; mere listings of ingredients or contents."

rustic copper
#

The class structure around it is not, since it's too common in programming languages etc.

random marsh
#

At the end of the day, you are making a derivative and if the license allows no derivatives, you are violating it.

muted grove
#

Again, you can't say no derivatives if you can't say no derivatives in the first place.

echo orchid
#

lol

muted grove
#

To where, configs would live.

fluid elbow
#

what?

muted grove
#

The contents of the config, the actual facts of your mod.

#

What textures to use, what protection or damage it has.

#

Can't be copyright protected.

#

And as such you can't slap a no derivative on that.

random marsh
#

Alright, make a compat. Good luck not using X user's 3d model and textures though.

echo orchid
#

lol again

muted grove
#

You don't have too lol.

#

So long as the original mod is a dependency, you don't have to have those things in the patch.

fluid elbow
#

yeah but if you make a comp patch of a APL-ND Mod / Addon you make a derivate of it

random marsh
#

You aren't just using their code. You are using their entire work and adding ACE hearing to it.

muted grove
#

How do you think map mods can be so tiny?

#

@random marsh Not if my compat is 15 lines long.

random marsh
#

Because CUP and Arma allow derivatives.

muted grove
#

That couldn't possibly encompass their entire mod.

#

They reference a lot, is my point.

random marsh
#

A derivative does not have to include the original assets of the work it is deriving of to be a derivative.

muted grove
#

And again, so long as what you're deriving isn't copyright protected, you're fine.

echo orchid
muted grove
#

It's a factual line of code.

#

It says "Use this texture"

#

That's a fact, not artistic creation.

echo orchid
#

that’s how materials files are made

muted grove
#

Artistic creation would be how that texture looks.

#

Or if you make your own texture, that's when you run into issues.

echo orchid
#

loooool

random marsh
#

Again, you aren't just deriving their config.cpp, you are also deriving from their 3d model and textures.

echo orchid
#

if you change a textures to a model

random marsh
#

Otherwise you are making an empty object that protects your hearing.

echo orchid
#

via a config file

muted grove
#

Then as I said, that's a non permissible derivative, if they do not allow it.

echo orchid
#

that isn’t artistic alteration?

muted grove
#

And which is where you run into issues.

#

You can find me saying that like 400 messages ago.

#

With my RHS texture example.

rustic copper
#

A texture is also factual; "put this pixel here with that color"
An audio file is also factual; "play this frequency at this time"

So those are not protected under copyright?

muted grove
#

I'm fairly sure with RHS's license ,you can not use 3d models and textures from their mods.

#

@rustic copper Yes, you're right.

echo orchid
#

dude, i use a sample of code that the engine provides so i can have my own variations

muted grove
#

It's factual, but it's part of a bigger make up.

echo orchid
rustic copper
echo orchid
muted grove
#

It's that makeup, that rendering of the texture, that's copyright protectable, not how 0's and 1's exist.

echo orchid
#

that isn’t derrivate that is copyrighted?

#

like wat are you talking dude

muted grove
#

Alright so

random marsh
#

@muted grove how do you propose going about making their helmet ACE hearing compatible without using their helmet model or textures? The config for it is accompanied with a 3d model and textures.

muted grove
#

@rustic copper Decided to pull a big dum and I'm trying to explain how they have no clue what they're talking about.

echo orchid
#

i’m done dude, you are so out of reality

soft egret
echo orchid
muted grove
#

Thank you Dedmen.

soft egret
#

but thats specifically ACE hearing compatibility.
A compat mod can be about as many things as any other mod, so you cannot really generalize that

muted grove
#

Sure.

#

I guess that's my fault to clarify.

#

Imo a compat mod doesn't take anything other than code, to change things from doing X to doing Y.

rustic copper
#

But a mod like RHS does not allow that on specific config entries, which can not be done anyway because of <insert random reason here>

muted grove
#

Like assigning some RHS ammo to have higher damage, or adding compatibility for SMA weapons to use some attachment mod.

echo orchid
muted grove
#

Permissible derivative because it's not under copyright.

#

They're facts.

#

You can not copyright facts.

soft egret
#

For example if you make a radio compat mod that adds a radio interface for TFAR.
You need to write the UI config which has specific arrangement, calls specific functions, uses specific IDC's defined by TFAR.
So you basically need to copy most of it and make minor adjustments.

Clearly a derivative

random marsh
#

On the flip side, if ACE didn't allow derivatives from their work, you can't claim fair use if you use their hearing functions in your work.

echo orchid
muted grove
#

Values, that do what?

#

Tell facts.

#

They're inherently facts.

echo orchid
#

lol

soft egret
muted grove
#

They tell you what textures to use, what damage values to use.

echo orchid
#

you keep bringing the texture thing into discussion

rustic copper
#

So it's a fact that id equals 42? Or was it 9000?

muted grove
#

I'm sure, by themselves they would all be facts, but there's a point as created through the copyright law when those combinations of facts, and their expressions, turn into copyright protectable works.

echo orchid
#

all shaders are written can be edited as text

muted grove
#

@echo orchid Because textures are a great example of what is copyright protectable.

soft egret
#

"when those combinations of facts, and their expressions, turn into copyright protectable works."
But config files don't apply, why? Same thing

muted grove
#

The whole config file sure.

random marsh
#

If ACE decided to not allow derivatives of their work, would you say making a compat for ACE to work with RHS is fair use?

echo orchid
#

that doesn’t mean changin the path to a texture is not changing the artwork

muted grove
#

Again

#

If you'd bother to read PuFu

#

I've always had the stance that altering the texture path, is inherently messing with copyright protectable elements.

echo orchid
muted grove
#

And as such, would fall under the purview of copyright laws, and no derivative license would apply.

echo orchid
#

as such, under ND clause i could simply efforce it

random marsh
echo orchid
random marsh
#

hypothetically of course

muted grove
#

Textures are absolutely copyright protectable.

random marsh
#

ACE hearing AFAIK is original to ACE, so using the ACE hearing property would be using their IP.

muted grove
#

Altering the expression of that work, is messing with copyright.

#

Messing with the function, is not.

rustic copper
#

If ACE would disallow it, RHS compat would not be allowed anymore, since it requires ACE specific configs/scripts

echo orchid
#

you just said that making a compatibility file, and since hiddenselections are config entries

muted grove
#

Function, ideas, facts, utility, can't be copyright protected.

random marsh
#

ACE's original code is not copyrighted?

echo orchid
#

changing textures is ok, and goes unde fair use

muted grove
#

Will you stop taking my words out of context?

rustic copper
#

It is, it's written/typed

echo orchid
#

that’s what you actually said

muted grove
#

No?

#

When @echo orchid

echo orchid
#

because config entries are facts

fluid elbow
#

at ND retextures are not allowed

random marsh
#

sorry, misread it as functionS

muted grove
#

I try to be very clear about the words I use btw.

#

If I meant to say functions, I will try my best to include the s.

#

@echo orchid When did I say

changing textures is ok, and goes unde fair use

echo orchid
muted grove
#

I'mma just post this quote in here again because it seems applicable

soft egret
muted grove
#

« You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means » – Iñigo Montoya

random marsh
muted grove
#

Your config, is essentially a giant list of facts. The expression of those facts might be copyright protectable, such as the textures referenced etc.

#

But the mere mention of them, is not copyright protectable.

echo orchid
#

a 3d game model is made out of a 3d mesh, textures (render specific file types, etx) and specific engine properties and LODs

#

if you edit any of it

#

it is an artistic alteration

muted grove
#

Again, in this case I wouldn't mess with any textures, lod's or what have you.

muted grove
echo orchid
muted grove
#

Just not the factual things, like for example, a bullet types damage value.

echo orchid
#

you can change the textures of a 3d mesh using a config file

muted grove
#

Yes, and?

echo orchid
#

and is that fair use?

muted grove
#

Changing the path? Yes.

#

Now

#

If you create what it references, that's new, that's copyright infringement.

mental pond
soft egret
echo orchid
mental pond
#

It’s not under fair use unless ur intending to use it for personal use only

muted grove
#

If you just change it to an arbitrary line of numbers and letters, and there's no texture at the end, it just won't work, right?

mental pond
#

Even free to use models are under copy right protection xD

rustic copper
#

Uhm... Nope

mental pond
#

Uh ya

muted grove
echo orchid
#

are you serious?

soft egret
#

If you put a new texture onto a model with a mod.
Your new texture depends on the original model being there and modifies it.
Thus a derivative

worn sleet
#

This all feels like flame baiting

muted grove
soft egret
#

You just said no, now you say yes

muted grove
#

What part of what I'm saying is getting lost in translation.

echo orchid
mental pond
soft egret
muted grove
#

You can make a fair use that isn't strictly personal @mental pond

soft egret
# muted grove this

Me saying that changing path of texture is deriviative.
And you point to me as if you agree

#

what now 🙃

muted grove
#

@soft egret Changing the path, does nothing but bork the mod, yes?

#

If you actually edit the 3d model, or change the texture it self, that's copyright infringement.

soft egret
#

it changes the look of that model

soft egret
echo orchid
#

nope, it changes the texture to another texture, or a procedural one

mental pond
#

For instance for another game like beat saber I had to modify the files (after getting permission to do such) so I could get the mods to work and I used it for myself only and didn’t show how to do it or give it away that is allowed

muted grove
#

Sorry, let me rephrase.

#

Changing the path to something completely nonsensical, random arbitrary thing that purposefully does not link to a texture.

mental pond
#

If I did anything else for monetary gain etc that no longer falls under fair use

soft egret
muted grove
#

@mental pond Sure, but that's not the limits of fair use.

mental pond
muted grove
#

@soft egret I'm trying to say that, merely altering the facts, isn't copyright infringement, it's when you alter the contents of what's being referenced, that it might be.

#

Like altering the model, or the textures.

soft egret
echo orchid
muted grove
#

So, no problems then innit?

mental pond
#

Fair use means different things depending on the company and country it’s based in and ur based in

echo orchid
#

also, that is still derrivative and would bork the 3d model

muted grove
#

LadyGrace, we're exclusively talking steam workshop, washington state laws and us federal laws.

echo orchid
#

and would thus be an alteration of an artistic representation

rustic copper
#

I also messed around with RHS configs/scripts/models for personal research reasons, so technically fair use. But the moment I share that I have to run for PuFu 😅

soft egret
#

You're bringing up fair use, and say it applies in a case that noone would ever do because its nonsense.
Might aswell not bring it up if it doesn't apply in any case that would make sense

mental pond
muted grove
#

How is it not

mental pond
#

Because of the laws in ur country

muted grove
#

Go ahead, explain to me how it's not.

echo orchid
mental pond
#

xD

soft egret
#

And, making a patch to a mod that sets the texture path to a nonsensical value.
Would make the game not find the texture and make the model invisible. Which will change how it looks

mental pond
#

Fair use is only allowed in the USA if your create it to match from scratch and credit the ppl u based it off of

soft egret
#

So I'd say that "invisible RHS tanks compat" mod would also count as a derivative in that case

muted grove
echo orchid
#

i already tried several times to convey just that

mental pond
#

Editing it to suit ur needs in any instance requires the permission of the developers or even just the company that made it 🤷🏻‍♀️

#

Without that ur violating copy right laws and are NOT under fair use

echo orchid
#

where is the probably coming from?? it simply isn’t

soft egret
muted grove
#

Probably because fair use isn't just that factor.

#

It also has 3 other factors that need considering.

rustic copper
#

TL;DR fair use, by design, does not apply to modding when releasing it (anywhere).

muted grove
#

Which is why I wouldn't mess with creative aspects of mods without permission.

#

@rustic copper Yeah I'mma just call you out on being wrong with that, as I've clearly explained for the past few days, meanwhile you've done nothing but sit there and repeat your same beliefs without much of any court precedent, or law citation.

echo orchid
#

having a function such as hearing protection in ace, is that such creative aspect, despite ending up as being a factual config entry?

muted grove
#

@soft egret If you'd bother to read further, you'd see the latter part of that statement that you're missing.

rustic copper
#

I quoted several times the US laws, Steam EULA and other stuff pointing out that you aren't wrong, but neither right.

echo orchid
#

there are several of us thag keep telling you that a lot of what you are typing is non sensical

muted grove
#

It's a semantic point at this point, creative expression is usually copyright protectable.

#

And as such, you'd need permission to alter.

echo orchid
#

moreover you re going in circles and keep saying either yes or not to the same question. as it suits you

mental pond
#

Creative expression is only protected if your not editing anything and only recreating something from scratch as I’ve stated before

echo orchid
#

but that’s enougb for me. remember fair use has only been used in defense, never as an offense in any court cases

muted grove
#

I mean, I think we all agree on that @echo orchid

echo orchid
#

that should tell you something about the fact that you keep saying it is fair use like that’s a fact

muted grove
echo orchid
#

when the only fact is that you will always need to prove that in court

muted grove
#

Yes, have I said anything to the contrary?

echo orchid
#

and this discord isn’t one

#

neither is this channel

muted grove
#

Of course you have to prove it in court, my argument has been focused on the misinterpretation of both 6D and fair use on the biki.

echo orchid
#

you keep pedaling about the same thing and you present things as factual truth

#

when you can’t even tell how the things you have been talking about (configs) actually work

muted grove
#

I try to draw the clearest distinctions I can based off of court precedent.

soft egret
muted grove
#

And I'm trying to have an open debate to figure out what is actually applicable.

#

Which, as I stated before was my mistake for not clarifying it enough.

rustic copper
#

Q: does a compat mod fall under fair use?
A: yes/no/idk

muted grove
#

Again, it depends.

echo orchid
#

duck this sheet

muted grove
#

Is the compat mod derived using copyright protected elements?

#

If yes, then likely no.

#

If no, then yeah it's fair use.

soft egret
#

though...
how can copyright law's fair use apply, if you are touching things that are not copyright protected in the first place?

muted grove
#

Good question, I guess I should say it's not copyright infringement, not fair use.

#

You bring up a good point.

soft egret
#

Which again brings us back to "fair use doesn't apply"

dull moon
#

+600 messages since 2h ago and it's still about compats and fair use?
holy 🦆

soft egret
#

The cases where it could, already aren't copyright to begin with. So no fair use either
Atleast the cases you brought up. Maybe there are some but I won't try to think of some at 1AM

muted grove
#

I'm not entirely familiar with config coding but, do you have to copy the whole config or can you just edit parts of it?

soft egret
#

edit parts

muted grove
#

So, singular line, or an argument or w/e it's called?

#

gg

soft egret
#

!purgeban 310355548296052746 0 racial slurs

muted grove
#

Thanks

edgy coralBOT
muted grove
#

Anyways

arctic magnet
#

wow

muted grove
#

Back to topic

soft egret
#

Lets say the ace hearing compat we talked about.

class CfgWeapons {
  class RHS_helmetBase;
  class RHS_SuperHelmet : RHS_helmetBase {
    ace_hearingProtection = 1.0;
  };
};
muted grove
#

Right, I figured it'd be something like that.

#

So for my own ignorance's sake to how textures are included, say it's in there, and it's required as part of classx

echo orchid
#

still derivative work

muted grove
#

If I don't change it, and it's required to work, that's not copyright infringement, because it's using the least portion required, while leaving the creative expression alone.

soft egret
#

Your patch config, cannot work without the original mod, as it requires its class names to be present, in the same arrangement.
So I'd call that derivative

muted grove
#

Editing it would be infringement because of how it would alter the creative work.

soft egret
#

"leaving the creative expression alone."
Thats complicated to define.
Adding hearing protection to a helmet can change the "creative expression"

muted grove
#

I'd say that's a utility.

#

A new function.

echo orchid
#

i, as the original author of a helmet in rhs

#

might not want to have ot have hearing protection value

soft egret
#

Even if the small config patch you're making, only requires so small parts of the original works config that you consider it non-copyright-protectable.

Your mod still requires the whole original mod to work properly, including its model and textures and name and description text.
You depend on the whole thing, not just a small subsection

muted grove
#

Yes, which is fine imo.

echo orchid
#

changing that changes my own creative aproach about that helmet

muted grove
#

So long as you do not include the other part that's required, that you don't need.

dull moon
#

So I'd call that derivative
i'd disagree on that since no changes to the original work is done

i'd interpret it as following:
taking a picture of a picture and make changes to the picture you took of the original picture

soft egret
#

taking a picture of a picture and make changes to the picture you took of the original picture
but isn't that a derivative of the original picture?

Your work is created from the original work, using the original work as a basis.
Thats what I count as derivative

echo orchid
#

that’s actually the definition of derivative

dull moon
#

but isn't that a derivative of the original picture?
hmm... you might have a point there on a second thought

muted grove
#

@echo orchid Sure, but if what you're doing is making a derivative, altering non copyright protectable elements, and only taking the minimum amount needed, you can I think, essentially legally circumvent a ND license.

echo orchid
dull moon
#

as long a mod a is dependent on mod B, that’s derivative
that’s actually the definition of derivative
same applies to this. on second thought you got a point

soft egret
#

if changing the "creative expression" is a factor.
That already makes it hard.

Most compat mods change something about a mod that changes the "creative expression"

magazine compat mods (Adds magazines even though the original author didn't indent/want that), adding advanced ballistics config (changes how the bullets fly, counter to how the author originally intended it)

Hearing protection we already had above.
Retextures is clear.
Sound changes, same as retextures.

muted grove
#

That's not really creative expression, those are facts.

#

Can this gun use this magazine, yes or no.

echo orchid
#

nope

soft egret
#

What texture is put on a model is also a fact

echo orchid
#

these aren’t all facts

muted grove
#

Creative expression would be how the gun looks, or the magazine looks.

soft egret
#

doesn't make a difference there.

echo orchid
#

considering all content is an artistic representation

muted grove
#

@soft egret Yes, it's a fact, but it's a fact saying what expression should show.

soft egret
#

And yes giving the ability to put a different looking magazine, with different ammo count, maybe different sound and different bullet characterisics certainly changes the creative expression of a gun

muted grove
#

So the config part is a fact, not copyrightable, but the config line + helmet appearing, is creative expression.

echo orchid
#

moreover, the config values are guestimations that makes a bullet have this much damage, or that much recoil

muted grove
#

It becomes creative expression when combined.

soft egret
#

But these are always combined

#

A config change goes hand-in-hand with whatever the config change causes

muted grove
#

@soft egret Yeah, sounds, textures, model, I've never said changing those wouldn't potentially be infringing.

#

I've only ever tried to say that factual things, like the ammo count, the damage done, they're facts. They are inherent facts that the gun it self draws on.

soft egret
#

"That's not really creative expression, those are facts."
yes, maybe. But changing these facts automatically changes the creative expression

muted grove
#

Maybe

#

That's up for a court to decide, but I'mma side with it not being an alteration to creative expression, because they are indeed facts.

#

It's the same as recipes imo.

#

Not copyright protectable, only your story that you might attach to it is.

soft egret
#

Recipes can also be copyrighted very sure...

muted grove
#

No

#

There might be like, one or two.

#

But generally they are expressly prohibited from copyright protection.

#

Coca Cola for example, does not have copyright protection for their recipe, they use trade secrets.

soft egret
#

Ah I just read, yeah copyright law explicitly excludes them..
But I would certainly consider something like Coka Cola a copyrightable special recipe

muted grove
#

Nah, it's not.

soft egret
#

Not just the list of ingredients, but also the way you put them together

muted grove
#

Nor would they want too.

#

Once you copyright something you have to tell the whole world what it is.

#

Same with patents.

random marsh
#

I asked this earlier: if ACE didnt allow derivatives, would it still be fair use to use their ACE hearing code on another helmet they didnt add hearing to?

echo orchid
#

maybe i want my made up tacticool m4s to have 35round magazines.

soft egret
#

Once you copyright something you have to tell the whole world what it is.
Nah nah nah.

#

I can write a program and not show anyone besides a few friends. Is still my copyright. Whole world doesn't need to know for it to be my copyrighted material

echo orchid
dull moon
muted grove
#

Alright so, I fumbled a bit on that.

echo orchid
#

#350

dull moon
#

😄

random marsh
muted grove
#

You don't have to tell them, until 90 years or w/e after and it runs out of protections.

#

Then it's out for everyone to see.

rustic copper
#

If a modder sets a name, description, ammo count, barrel length, etc. in a config, those are creative expressions. Adding/removing/changing them changes the creativity and therefore are protected.

Not sure how that is hard to understand

soft egret
muted grove
#

Because they're expressions of facts, the facts themselves can't be copyright protected.

rustic copper
#

Its not a fact that a TFAR radio backpack has a range of 20km, it's a creative expression

muted grove
#

Okay buddy.

#

I went to the bathroom today, guess that's a creative expression, and not a fact.

soft egret
#

Well did you walk, or run, or jump, or crawl?

#

Did you record yourself on video doing that?

muted grove
#

No, just went to the bathroom. It's a creative expression now.

#

Grez said so.

soft egret
#

Going to the bathroom can certainly be a creative expression 😄

muted grove
#

No one can ever write a book about how one goes to the bathroom, cuz it's my creative expression.

soft egret
#

They can about the specific way they go.

"Go to the bathroom" in itself no.
"This gun has bullets" no.

"walk on hands to the bathroom and sing a song" yes
"this gun has 31 bullets" yes.

gleaming fable
#

This channel is a seemingly never ending source of entertainment. Is it always like this?

echo orchid
#

nope

gleaming fable
#

Whats new?

soft egret
#

every few weeks

echo orchid
#

it’s all @muted grove

arctic magnet
#

Honestly I just enjoy watching the battles

echo orchid
#

for the past few days

#

usually it ends with ban

fluid elbow
#

its like 18years ago with singles chats xD

soft egret
gleaming fable
#

Hot Shingles Waiting To Get Nailed In Your Area!!!
Just call Mike's roofing company. 111-234-5678

echo orchid
#

got some booze going, and goes well with popcorn or i would have long ducked this

soft egret
#

but we atleast already had a ban in here today. Thats sufficient, everyone can go to bed in peace

rustic copper
#

Reminds of a famous sketch in Germany... "Same procedure as last year?"

echo orchid
fluid elbow
echo orchid
#

but yes, less bans but also less agression overall, just some ignorance

soft egret
#

overall a healthier place for everyone who can say "okey I'll just block and ignore this nonsense"

coarse marsh
#

What the hell am I reading?

#

hahah

soft egret
#

Provided someone actually removes the wrong/missleading statements that can cause harm to others that cannot just "block" it

muted grove
#

I've done my best to argue from a neutral position, it's in my best interest that copyright be balanced between authors rights and the public, forwarding the sciences and all that.

coarse marsh
#

@muted grove I can tell

#

Howver as usual with these kinds of topics one should always consult the original author of said material

muted grove
#

Can't tell if satire or not, too tired.

#

I don't think that's required in a lot of cases but it is certainly best practice.

coarse marsh
#

Maybe not but its the best to avoid any backfires

muted grove
#

And should be encouraged.

#

Yeah

#

Totally agree

#

I just like arguing edge cases and specifics, more so to educate my self more than anything.

#

Really?

coarse marsh
#

The modding world is a bit of a minefield on these questions as you said there are derivates of the original model from actual manufactures but then that a gain is a whole other can of worms, Its best way is to contact the closest source

#

Thats a good attitudef to have Larisa

#

To know the beaurcrazy (dont kbow the word) you cna more easily stand up for yourself if there is ever such a case

#

or as in here consult those that are unsure

#

as a musician that creates varities of tracks copyright protection is BIG deal for me

muted grove
#

Music copyright... no thanks

coarse marsh
#

Its a hellhole

#

hahahah

muted grove
#

I'mma stear well clear of that.

coarse marsh
#

I dont blame you, but thankfully I do my own original music so I dont worry about anything

muted grove
#

Got your 17 licenses and you about to hit me with 150k of statuatory damages for the last one you forgot to mention I needed?

coarse marsh
#

I got about 10 more in my drawers

muted grove
#

Cool!

#

Lolol

#

Fkin swear, music industry survives off of squeezing blood from rocks.

coarse marsh
#

Well it has changed over the decades. it used to be about sales now its about streaming sales

#

as in the amount of advertisement crap you hear on the radio or streaming platform

muted grove
#

I hear nada

#

Too lazy to deal with that, got spotify premium

coarse marsh
#

Exactly

#

close drawers of copyright in sadness

muted grove
#

Lolol

#

Tbh

#

I'd rathet live in a world without copyright, but alas, we can thank capitalisn for that.

coarse marsh
#

I dont think its that straightforward.

#

But im not gonna steer this ship into politics, we might aswell be on the Titanic

muted grove
#

Star trek time, no copyrights, no dumdums, just creativity and fun.

#

Mods for all!

coarse marsh
#

🙂 well I create some of my tracks to be used for mods

muted grove
#

Neat

coarse marsh
#

I dont have 5 billions different copyright documents

muted grove
#

Anyways, I think you're right, this might be going off topic just a tad!

coarse marsh
#

Yeh, Politics is a discipline we should yeet away from here I dont wanna sink in angry letters hahahaha

muted grove
#

Great chat everyone, learned some stuff, thanks. I'm however off to bed.

coarse marsh
#

I will DM you some stuff I've got ok?

muted grove
#

Sure

coarse marsh
#

Cheers

earnest mirage
leaden furnace
#

Can I report a hacker in Official Warlords US #01e here?

#

Godmode hacks rn

#

Name = Administrator

#

Teamkilling to show it off

brisk nexus
leaden furnace
#

Using hacks while using the title

brisk nexus
leaden furnace
#

Im good. Im in a game rn. Thats why I put it in question

#

Are you looking to help or ask me wise ass questions?

brisk nexus
#

Such as someone reuploading your mod without your permission

dull moon
#

@leaden furnace
report hackers to Dwarden with proof

leaden furnace
bitter sierra
#

Lmfao

gleaming fable
#

Haven't seen any actual reports

spare osprey
stable zealot
echo orchid
#

pretty sure it is not as funny for people who have to deal with this sort of shit on a daily basis

vivid wave
stiff jasper
earnest mirage
#

What im assuming they mean is

#

So they don't Clogg their modlauncher

#

Not that that makes any sense

#

But still

#

What i See they did, they took Pbos from different mods, Put them into a Mod and Uploadet them

golden smelt
#

🤔 Anyone any idea about any info regarding cnotk's OFP campaign "remaster" being removed from workshop?

stiff jasper
echo orchid
royal charm
#

I took Dedmens suggestion a few years back of just using a "Core" mod that calls dependencies on all the mods in the pack, so you just have to subscribe and select one mod, then click "load dependencies". Works quite well and it looks like most of the established units have copied now 😄

dull moon
#

so basically a PBO with a config.cpp containing something like this?

class CfgPatches
{
    class MY_CORE_MOD
    {
        units[] = {};
        weapons[] = {};
        requiredVersion = 0.1;
        requiredAddons[] = 
        {
            "mod_1",
            "mod_2",
            "mod_3",
            "mod_n"
        };
    };
};```
crystal talon
dull moon
#

True, that's even easier

paper prawn
royal charm
#

@dull moon basically just what you did above, without requiredAddons

#

Over the years, I have gradually been given permission to modify and reupload some of the smaller quality-of-life mods, and then I've created a lot of my own config patches for speed/armor/texture modifications, and a few small custom items as well contributed by members of my unit. So it's gradually grown to be more useful than just being an empty mod 🙂

dull moon
#

👍

heavy nacelle
soft egret
#

I legit thought that post was PuFu saying he's looking for RHS modellers and just ignored it and scrolled past..
It helps if you provide a description to your link...

echo orchid
#

yeah, sorry was a post from phone

spark bay
#

*Might be interesting for @blazing wyvern

carmine folio
#

Is Workshop Crawler down? When I try to open it I get a 404

#

Including the Github for WSC

soft egret
#

yes

river spear
#

Maintenance work thats going to carry on for a few more days Im afraid

heavy nacelle
charred basalt
#

Isn't ace rhs compat property of ACE though?

They allow re ups providing its not being listed as (official) or something

muted grove
#

@charred basalt
11.05.2021 18:42 185.699.819 RH_acc.pbo
11.05.2021 18:42 53.651 RH_acc_cfg.pbo
11.05.2021 18:42 352.775.337 RH_M4.pbo
11.05.2021 18:43 113.879 RH_M4_cfg.pbo

soft egret
#

I don't see a mention of ace rhs compat above? 🤔

muted grove
#

Yeah I think it was just Tyler not realizing R3vo was talking about the RH mods, not the ace compat.

charred basalt
#

I missed them in the pastebin woops ignore me lack of coffee as usual

muted grove
#

S'all good bud!

faint nacelle
random marsh
#

They're pulling the names off of the search engine results thinkpad

scarlet patrol
#

holy mother of yikes
44$ for a vanilla retexture

random marsh
#

Steam Workshop::USP Gear & Uniforms AIO
This is from the Steam WS link on Google.
Is there an HD image of these vanilla CSAT uniforms? : arma
This is a title from Reddit.
3CB BAF Equipment – 3 Commando Brigade
This is the title from one of the 3CB mod Wordpress pages.
JSOC Tier1 - ARMA 3 - ADDONS & MODS: COMPLETE - Bohemia Interactive Forums
This is (obviously) the title of a BI forum thread.

#

I don't think they're actually selling anything on those postings, at least not what is advertised.

faint nacelle
#

hmm that could be indeed

fluid jewel
#

that looks entirely like a scam website

#

they all seem like random images combined with random titles

#

one of them has that image of the OFP/A1/A2 characters from the sample model package with the title "Police Uniform png download"

stiff jasper
fluid jewel
#

yeah there were some with comments like "Both comfortable and fashionable"

vivid wave
#

I love how the names are barely wrongly localized lmao

unknown.png
fluid jewel
#

looks like that page just searches that category name in google images and then just takes the images with the title that google shows

#

if you google image search "arma uniforms", the results match almost exactly what's on that page

zinc tinsel
#

i got a question about violating IP rights. Would i break IP rights if i was to remake a mission from another game, lets say COD or Battlefield? and than upload it

#

ping me with yes / no

crystal talon
# zinc tinsel ping me with yes / no

Probably not as long as you don't try to monetise it, infringe on trademarks, or use assets from it such as audio, textures, videos, or anything else like that.

#

if it just follows the same overall layout and that's it, it would probably be treated as a parody.

zinc tinsel
#

Ah oke

crystal talon
#

seems like a lovely guy

carmine folio
#

You try and get away from the toxic people but they have a way of just dragging you back into their bullshit.

charred basalt
#

What is a DMCA? Is it like a strike against your steam account?

vivid wave
#

Check the pinned

charred basalt
#

Ouch rip to those who gone for that

carmine folio
clever scarab
#

So I've found a guy who's posted about a Dozen Arma 3 models that are available to download for free in .Obj format, thought you guys should be aware. It was posted a while back, but as they're still up I'm assuming it might not have been known about?

echo orchid
#

also please remove said link

#

or just send it to a moderator

clever scarab
#

Cheers Pufu, wasn't 100% sure where to send it

carmine folio
#

Got to hand it to steam they are quick about removing breaches of their terms of service. That was under an hour!

compact timber
stiff jasper
#

wow that's new to me. they ripped every single mod and then put it in a collection instead of simply merging the original ones. do those guys not know how workshop works or what? 😄

faint nacelle
#

they usually do not know how it works

soft egret
#

@echo orchid @dull moon ^ 🍿

echo orchid
#

@stiff jasperi doubt they ripped anything, they just re-uploaded stuff....

#

@soft egretcheers for ping, done

#

@compact timberthanks for the report, DMCAed

compact timber
#

np, we (bwmod) reporting also...

echo orchid
#

this takes the cake anyways

Teilen ausserhalb der 9. Jägerkompanie ist untersagt.

Mod from the 9th Jäger Company
Sharing outside the 9th Jäger Company is prohibited.```
compact timber
#

ye

soft egret
#

Same in their forums

  1. Sämtliche im Lexikon geschrieben Inhalte sind Eigentum der 9. Jägerkompanie. Kopieren und Übertragen des Inhaltes sind nicht gestattet. (Nur nach Absprache mit der Kompanieführung).
  1. all contents written in the encyclopedia are property of the 9th Jäger company. Copying and transferring the content is not allowed. (Only after consultation with the company leadership).
    They care about their own copyright very much it seems
muted grove
#

Priceless

echo orchid
#

'diots

soft egret
#

He's on TFAR discord Nilia#1114
I explicitly state on my discord that its not permitted to reupload stuff to the workshop and he also doesn't care about that :bigsad:

compact timber
muted grove
soft egret
#

He just deleted them all it seems

compact timber
#

cann still see the rhs gref one

#

now its gone too 😂

compact timber
#

nevermind those are still online

#

they just deleted the collection

final turtle
#

Workshop entries where dead pages, looks like they re-enabled them to play this evening

burnt oak
soft egret
#

So he didn't take it down afterall

#

He's also on Armaworld discord in case anyone wants to contact him

dull moon
#

@compact timbergot a link?

final turtle
#

The "9.JgKp Diverses" Mod is full of 10+ smaller Mods thrown together aswell

burnt oak
dull moon
#

ah, missed that. thx

final turtle
carmine folio
#

I wonder if the community can come together on an agreement to balance warlords

#

And make it fun more than 4/10 times

#

Or is this impossible because why fix competitive gamemodes that could be a lot better when leaving them as is would be much easier

dull moon
#

@carmine folio
i think you might have caught the wrong channel 😉

carmine folio
#

Oh what

#

HOW AM I HERE

dull moon
#

🤣

carmine folio
#

Bruh

#

So I just figured

#

🤪

#

Sorry about that

#

I'll go ahead and copy paste that over

dull moon
#

no worries. i knew it was an honest mistake

carmine folio
#

👍

tall oxide
#

Not to defend péople who actively ignore licenses and reupload stuff, but maybe we should at sometime get the ability to create modpacks legally, like the mod.html the modloader gives you, but less fiddely.

#

since like 99% of license violations are exactly that

faint nacelle
#

No.

muted grove
#

Better launcher presets be good.

fathom bone
#

What is fiddly about the html file the share option gives you, tis pretty simple.
And if use export instead of share, you just have to open a text editor, change one word, and add a line to give it a name

carmine folio
tall oxide
stiff jasper
#

wait what

#

do you know how does the html mod preset work or not really?

tall oxide
#

what do you want me to answer to that meta question 😄

#

you setup the mod collection, export into html, send to players, they import.
If you change one mod, repeat the whole process. thats not dynamic at all. and noone ever knows which version of the html is the newest one

fathom bone
# 
garfield_Modset_April_21_v1
garfield_Modset_May_21_v1
garfield_Modset_May_21_v2```
#

Nothing to stop you adding in your own version control with a date and a version number

random marsh
fathom bone
#

^ that is also another good option.

heavy nacelle
#

@tall oxide could use arma 3 sync.

tall oxide
#

Yeah i know these solutions exist, but none are easy or lightweight

heavy nacelle
#

Altough I dont share the same view as you do on how convenient html's work. I can kinda see where you are coming from, however. I think it is important that IP rights come before convenience in any matter.

muted grove
#

No? Convenience in this situation has /Zero/ impact on IP rights, like, at all.

#

Also, convenience supercedes ip rights in a lot of laws in a lot of cases.

#

Look up fair use circumvention exceptions.

#

Or excemptions, I forget which, hurray dyslexia!

tall oxide
#

You cant violate a license on the basis of "it was convenient"

heavy nacelle
muted grove
#

None of us was talking about repackaging mods in regards to the launcher.

#

There's no discussion to be had about that, it's been clarified a dozen times.

#

If you want to repackage, you can if you have all the neccesary rights.

#

If not, then you can't.

heavy nacelle
muted grove
#

Yes, better preset functionality in the mod section of the launcher.

#

Having the ability to subscribe to a dynamic mod pack, and have it automatically set up presets, for various servers, keep the presets up to date, when the original changes, having versioning selection functionality.