ip_rights_violations

[prime stratus]

Yes, you cannot pay modders to mod

[plain drum]

even with the new Monitisation policy?

[prime stratus]

That is allowing a server to monetise

[rustic copper]

And not to monetize mod development...

[coral torrent]

No, paid commission work is currently not allowed.

[plain drum]

What I’m confused on is “you are allowed to charge for cosmetic items in your server if it does not prevent or change gameplay in anyway” how can I charge for cosmetic items if I dont have modders to create the cosmetic items? All I want is some clarification on what “cosmetic items” are

Is the expectation that the modders will work for free while we make money off them?

[flint geyser]

Imagine being a server owner. You make a funny hat. You paywall that funny hat. As long as funny is the only attribute of it - no gameplay advantages.

[plain drum]

that makes since but i dont have the time to create mods because im busy running my community and playerbase, it just seems a bit weird that i cant hire modders to create content that goes towards the servers

[flint geyser]

I understand your point of view. If it's ever allowed I'm sure it'll be a big announcement.

[plain drum]

im not upset or anything or trying to get heated FYI im just trying to sort out this problem because this sounds like it could be a perfect way for our communities to self sustain server costs

[flint geyser]

There is no problem for you to sort out here because it's not allowed and that's it.

[frigid heart]

there isnt something to "sort out", currently its not allowed to pay modders to create mods. subject to change? possibly in the future(I'm guessing here, not on the reforger team), but for now no

[plain drum]

gotcha, not allowed. that answers my question, hopefully there will be a day that it is. Thanks for the help in understanding!

[coral torrent]

The expectation is that the server owner and or his team work on their server. Providing services to other people without being part of their team is currently not something you can do commercially.

[plain drum]

Okay that makes since, having everyone work together on a voulenteer status to help create mods that generate income which goes to sustaining the community ONLY.

Now, that raises another question, and let me know if I'm taking up too much time here i know you guys are busy, would that profit (money left over once the servers and other expenses are paid) from these cosmetic items be able to go back to the members of the community who take part in running it?

[pearl junco]

you cannot pay people for creating anything with / inside reforger tools. Paying people just because they are "running" the project seems like a grey zone for me personally.

[plain drum]

because technically that would count as expenditures of running the community, especally if you have professional people (who are very good at management) in your community who are looking to do it full time. I feel like people being able to make money off their communities is the whole point of Arma Reforger Server Monetization.

[pearl junco]

fulltime is crazy, this can hardly replace a real job

[plain drum]

Full time includes 40 hours a week, which for some people who play videogames often is not a lot. I'm simply talking about giving our managers and community moderators enough extra money for them to consider this a reasonable side hussle

[pearl junco]

hmm lets see what the guys from BI will tell us

[plain drum]

Thus allowing for us to get more time out of them and allowing us to run our community better

@coral torrent?

Again no arguments here just trying to understand the rules so i don't violate them

[soft egret]

You also don't have permission to use the game for commercial purposes.
Now the monetization approval is a somewhat exception to it, but that is towards the server owners.
Not the moderators paid by the owners.
The moderators don't have monetization permission, they are not allowed to use the game commercially, they are not allowed to earn money for "playing" the game

[echo orchid]

as far as i understand allowing monetization is allowed to ease / cover the server hosting (and associated services) costs.

[soft egret]

Now if you have someone developing a discord bot for example.
They are neither using the game nor the modding tools, so you can pay them.
(Unless the discord bot uses the game or game server...)

You can also pay people to make funny hat models for you. But only the raw model, the putting it into a mod you'd have to do yourself, as you cannot pay them for it.

[plain drum]

I noticed you said server owners, now is there any limt to how many server owners there are. Also what would be the best way to document these server owners so it is clearly outlines who is a server owner and who isn't?

[soft egret]

I don't know.
If you ask for monetization approval you have direct contact to the people deciding those things anyway, so you can also ask there directly

[plain drum]

Gotcha i understand it can be a bit technical for us to handle in discord and not in a professional meeting, but thank you all for your time this helped clear some things up, seriously i would have gotten sued.

[faint nacelle]

I dont think server hosting is meant to be professional business model.

so your approach to make it a job may not be valid

[plain drum]

I agree trying to make money off of an Arma server would be a business model doomed to make you file bankruptcy, (unless you're bacon) I'm just trying to figure out how to manage my community better while we grow.

The way I'm wanting to run my community would take a lot of time away from my members lives so I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to compensate them for their time without emptying my bank account.

[faint nacelle]

selling hosting service is totally different business model than buying that service and then trying to build business around running the server

[faint nacelle]

this may not be possible.

since paying for mods is a nono.

paying for source material is allowed though, but you would still need someone to make the mods without being paid

and if you "pay them for something else" but its directly linked to them making the mods that still can be looked at as paying for the mods

as they would not be paid unless they make the mods

so circumventing the policy is not looked at favourably

[plain drum]

What about paying people to assist in running our discord community or create storylines for us basically helping us manage our community, (not people creating mods)

[faint nacelle]

I dont know the policy deep enough to answer that so you would probably best ask that though the monetization email.

[plain drum]

Gotcha thank you for the reply, hopefully i can get a good answer to this.

[faint nacelle]

I get the sentiment for wanting to pay people

but the game environment is not meant for commercial use

[dawn laurel]

I find this a bit bizarre. So you're either expecting all server owners to know how to create mods, or happen to know somebody who can and be a part of their team (exclusively?!). This is either an unrealistic expectation of every server owner or a barrier to entry for new server owners (who want to fairly compensate modders without having to learn how to program, model, texture, animate, etc).

Mods can be a major reason why players stay engaged with a server (and the game...), which in turn makes them more likely to contribute financially. So why is it that server owners can profit from mods, but modders can’t?

I would think the supply (modders) and demand (server owners with cash) would encourage third-party marketplaces where modders can sell their work to server owners - one of which you are connected to (bytex). But here it sounds like you're saying this isn't allowed?

---

Personally, I come from the position of being both a server owner and a modder (in GMod), and while I see this as a positive step, encouraging self-sufficient communities while also setting necessary boundaries, it seems to fall short at the final hurdle: actually allowing modders to thrive

[faint nacelle]

Owning a server does not mean you must monetize it

or make new mods for it

lot of communities host their server for their own gaming

running a public server that generates money is not the primary purpose

communities can be self sufficient through donations

There are also tons of problems in monetization as modders would need to become proper business entities etc

one does not really cover the cost of making things for real

theres customer support

refunds

even more scammers

gmod is a nightmare platform for IP rights. fiver is wildlands too

[dawn laurel]

Of course - that's how I started! It was me and 5 others and we just wanted to mess about on our own server - until (quite literally) overnight the server was popular and the it became my 'hobby' for the next 2 years 😅

But, the reality is that lots of the medium-large servers will monetise (in other games). Most need to, to cover the infrastructure costs. For reference the largest GMod, Rust, GTA and minecraft servers generate tens, if not hundreds of thousands a year in revenue.

And if they are generating such income, I have to say again, why should server owners take all the profit?

With some pretty large confidence (myself and talking to others), back in 2015-7 most of the top 100 (western) gmod servers would of been generating a minimum of $5-150k a year (but gmod is a bit more aggressive with monetisation).
On the flip side as a modder, the marketplace I sold my gmod scripts on has handled $6 million worth of transactions in 11 years

[dawn laurel]

Yes and no, it's not quite as complicated as you initially think (depending on region). It really depends on the quality marketplace, which can be a gamble if its community run. This is a discussion probably for somewhere else though :p

[dawn laurel]

Final point - just to make clear when I say and think of 'commercial mods', to me these are things most useful to server owners (who are making profit):

• administration tools
• frameworks (if the server owners are profiting from running servers using the framework)
• mods that enhance player engagement (ie extra functionality for a life server, like a drug tycoon mechanism)

Not a blanket paywall on things you would see in the workshop

• single function addons
• vehicles
• weapons
• mods based on existing IP's
• total conversions

[faint nacelle]

I do wonder do those servers on other games actually act as proper business entities or are they shady

[dawn laurel]

From what I've seen, eventually, yes. They start making so much money they are forced to for tax reasons (I've heard this first-hand).

As you note yourself, the initial intention isn't necessarily to be making significant amounts of money with these servers, so it kinda just catches up with you

[plain drum]

This is true to an extent. Communities like the 75th can only afford their servers through large donations from so-called “angel donors,” with some giving $500 or more per month. This creates an unfair environment for community growth, as not all server owners have access to such donors. It forces communities to rely on rare and unpredictable financial support just to stay online.

If we were allowed to encourage members to contribute directly to the server, it would create a fairer system. This aligns with Arma’s monetization policy, which promotes equal opportunity. However, not being able to compensate the people who create the content that attracts these donations creates a major barrier. Server owners who can code or work with systems like Infusion have a significant advantage over those who cannot.

The monetization policy doesn’t say that making a profit from your server is outright banned. So what’s stopping a dishonest server owner from exploiting the unpaid work of others to make money for themselves? That kind of behavior seems far more exploitative than simply paying staff fairly for their time and contributions.

[plain drum]

I feel like this could be avoided through proper liability contracts and a more clearly written out agreement that would not hold Bohemia Interactive liable

[faint nacelle]

Even if BI is not contractually liable, bad actors who exploit the system would be labeled BIs fault

theres a lot more to it than just liability

that cant be measured in money

And I never ever see anyone suggesting these things actually try to tackle the negative points or the actual business model properly

[rustic copper]

Unfair community growth?

If a community is a nice place to be, and well organized, it will grow by itself.
If people really like a community, they will donate regardless.
And if people are willing to donate $500/m for that, well done to them.

But not being allowed to monetize because you want to make a profit (aka being commercial instead of non-profit) has nothing to do with all of that...

[frigid heart]

So what’s stopping a dishonest server owner from exploiting the unpaid work of others to make money for themselves?
Only mods that give permission to be used on monetized servers are allowed to be used, and if a server owner is "exploiting" work done by their own team then their team will leave very quickly and the server will die

[dawn laurel]

I mean this is effectively a formal market-place like environment then. 'By purchasing this mod, I hereby give you permission to use this on your monetized server'. Why not just legitimise this behaviour?

It also seems to conflict with 'Arkensor' saying "Providing services to other people without being part of their team is currently not something you can do commercially"

[frigid heart]

Why not just legitimise this behaviour?
Because this is explicitly against the rules? mods cannot be paid for

[dawn laurel]

But server owners can make profit? My root question is why the disparity? Is the content modders create less valuable than the servers that are hosting them?

[frigid heart]

"By purchasing this mod, I hereby give you permission to use this on your monetized server"
This would result in the mod author getting a permanent ban from the workshop and probably getting their tools license revoked

[frigid heart]

The why is completely irrelevant in this situation, this is simply how the rules currently are and how they have been for the past ~10+ years.
Is it unfair that server owners the monetize but modders cannot? in some ways sure. and there could possibly be changes to that in the future, but that is entirely separate from server monetization

[plain drum]

i dont think i explained it properly.
The bigger the servers the more people in them = more donations (this is great)
However not many people donate, I've seen the financial status of some of these big communities, one for example, has $2200 a month (this was months ago so dont count on it being super accurate) in server costs, donations cover about $1500 but the rest is covered by the owner.
so if im trying to start a community and it isnt financially sustainable (because im a gamer and work at McDonalds) im screwed.
Unless i am able to cover that gap in cost with offering the donor something (IE a patch in game that says their name rank and classification) ill be broke due to running a community that offeres me no consideration.
This was resolved with the monitisation policy, so great!
one issue, i dont know how to make mods, and people who make mods wont make me my patches for free so i can make money off them. (im not offering them consideration in the money were making)
Now i have to close down my community because its distrupting my ability to live my life, therefore hurting BI as a result as im taking players away from their playerbase
it just seems like a win win to allow modders to be compensated for their work

The point is some of our communities grow and then we cant fund them due to lack of donations primarily because we don't have a way to make incentives worthwhile to the player because people dont work for hours on end to make other people money.

[dawn laurel]

I disagree with it being 'irrelevant', and id say in every way rather than some ways - but you are right to say its been policy for a while. Although as I mentioned, marketplaces for arma mods do exist - take Arkensor's - so it's seemingly been a bit of an... inconsistent... policy

[faint nacelle]

do you need to run a community if it dont want to donate to cover the costs?

like

why do you do it then?

why cater to such ungrateful people

you dont do it so BI has more players and you could just play on someone elses server

[frigid heart]

marketplaces for arma mods do exist - take Arkensor's
What marketplace for mods are you talking about?

[dawn laurel]

DM'd (to avoid advertising)

[plain drum]

no not directly, but lets say i run a MILSIM unit, and the players in my community tell their friends about my community and get them to download the game. it seems small but at a large scare this could bring in significant revenue to BI

[rustic copper]

2k a month? Are they running 100 game servers or something...

Nitrado AR server (64 slots) costs $600 a year... Discord is free, a webserver (for website) maybe $200 a year...
Like... my current community spends about $100 a month on 2 dedicated servers and licences, which can easily facilitate our 120-150 active members.

And if you can't afford running a community, don't start one...
People will be able to join others without a problem.

[faint nacelle]

is a bit of a stretch

I think

[rustic copper]

Hell, I was even part of a 600+ member multi game community and spent less than $500 a month on everything (and yet got more per month through donations, so actually had to organize IRL events to "waste" money)

[plain drum]

absoloutely not game servers especally those hosted by reputable people (not nitrado) typically sell 128 slot servers for just around 1.50 per slot so when you ramp up to 15-20 servers (Such as 75 rangers) that brings your monthly cos6t up to 1,920 for just 10 servers per month

were not talking about small numbers here, these large communities are having issues sustaining servers

[dawn laurel]

And if you can't afford running a community, don't start one...

That a bit rough, especially if you are not based in US/Western Europe.

A good dedi and a website will be over $100 a month in hosting costs, which considering averages wages are much lower in these areas is a bit of a tougher pill to swallow. Sure you could host something on your raspberry pi in your garden shed - but it won't scale

This is assuming you don't want to give modders any money (for custom content), and excluding any other one-off expenses

[plain drum]

Also not to mention the costs of websites and what not

[prime stratus]

Who needs 20 servers tho

[plain drum]

The playerbases such as dark group 75 rangers and WCS who are housing thousands of people per community

[rustic copper]

I prefer a community where I know the others, instead of just being someone who can claim I belong to something big...

And those groups just host public servers instead of being an actual community (they are, but that's not why they are known)

[plain drum]

If these servers shut down there would be a significant decrease in daily players for AR

[rustic copper]

They'll find other places to play, not something to worry about 😉

[faint nacelle]

but you dont have to do that

[plain drum]

I wouldnt be too sure, hundreds of people are in leadership positions that they worked for years to get to and if that community shut down they would have to start in seperate communities from the very begining. and would most likely take their followers with them to a different game such as squad and what not

[faint nacelle]

you could just run a server where you play with your friends

also since the unfair advantages were mentioned. isnt it still just as unfair if you can pay for modders to make you mods

as not everyone could do that

[plain drum]

but people are and they are loosing money doing it, like for instance i would love to grow my community and would be able to if i was able to financially justify a guarenteed way to pay for server costs.

[faint nacelle]

why does it need to grow?

other than to generate money

[plain drum]

Because i love what i do, and would like to increase my player base, just like everyone else in this community. Operations are way more fun when you have more people in them.
as a response to your question above
no because the modders would create content that generates income then the modders would get a cut of the donation therefore self sustaining modders who are sustaining our servers

[faint nacelle]

Maybe I just cant understand the allure of it

[plain drum]

Its very indepth and difficult to understand, but when you understand how these communities operate it makes total since, hense my passion for this topic.

[faint nacelle]

I cant put my finger on what feels wrong about what you said

and what is it that does not make sense to me

I got to hit the hay anyway. 🐐 💤

[plain drum]

If any BI staff members would like to add on to this i would love to have discussions on this

[faint nacelle]

What Id like to see from mod money enthusiasts is properly laid out pros and cons and how the business would actually work. not just the "we want to give back to modders spiel"

and special attention to the cons and how they might be mitigated

but also we dont really have proper channel for that discussion

[plain drum]

a few cons i can definitely see would be how to prevent malicious or scamy payments but most of the modders in the community are honest people

[faint nacelle]

this is honestly quite offtopic for this channel

[rustic copper]

As a modder I wouldn't mind to get paid for my work, especially when server owners are allowed to take money for MY work...
But that is why the monetization system is for, to prevent abuse of the "no commercial use of the game/tools".

How that is related to community size and amount of servers beats me

[plain drum]

maybe a program that BI creates to vet these people

[faint nacelle]

that would take resources

who pays that?

more depth in the cons and how to tackle them

no rose tintet glasses

[plain drum]

bi could take comission id say 10% could cover the salaries of staff

[faint nacelle]

could it?

what about when it dont

[plain drum]

then that would be a violation of the operating agreement that BI ad the modder/community would sign

[faint nacelle]

would modders be paid proper industry standard wages?

or slave labor wages

[rustic copper]

if paid mods become a thing I'm sure 90% of the actual modders would leave the Arma community (and the 10% that is left only sells crap)

[dawn laurel]

It's largely organic, but some reasons I wanted to see mine grow were:

• To have a fun gaming experience (for yourself and others) to your liking
• To moderate it to your liking (a strong stance I took was against racism, it was pretty prolific on most servers).
• Use as a test-bed for mods I was creating
• Using the platform to raise money for charity at Christmas - a tradition I carried on from an ArmA server I use to play on (pre monetisation rules) where they would donate to Help The Heroes!

And on the personal side

• It was a pretty cool feeling to have a bustling community - back in the day checking gametracker to see the server was full, it was like an accomplishment. Considering you are competing with other servers too
• And the people you meet along the way and the community you form is a unique experience too.
• I guess in a way it's like being popular on social media or something, probably a bit of narcissism involved

People would donate to keep the server running, but ultimately it would make more than it would cost. I probably gave around $1000 back to other modders, and learnt to become a programmer myself.

[faint nacelle]

I guess I dont think people should pay for you to get this feeling.

[plain drum]

no they would be given a percentage of the earnings from each mod
think of them as hired contracters on behalf of the community they are supporting
if someone pays the community 100 for a patch in server that has their name and the modder create it
the modder gets 20% $20
BI gets 10% comission $10
70% goes toward the community $70

[faint nacelle]

that does not really leave a lot after taxes

[rustic copper]

how about 10% BI, 10% to community and 80% to modder who did the actual work...

[faint nacelle]

and thats a fucking expensive patch

and people complain about CDLC prices where you get games worth of content

[plain drum]

just an example lol digets of 100 are easier to explain

[faint nacelle]

Give it few days and come up with realistic numbers.

[dawn laurel]

A slight aside, mod.io have something like this. The cut is 20-40% for the modder though
https://docs.mod.io/monetization/how-it-works/

[plain drum]

10% to BI 40% to the modder and 50% to the community

[rustic copper]

and none goes to the server which hosts it 😉

[faint nacelle]

those places can be highly exploitative

[oblique osprey]

Unfortunately, modding as a matter of fact couldn't be a full-time job to be paid proper industry wages. But I can agree with Grezvany and clifford. The possibility to be legally paid for your custom(not selling right to add your public mod to server) modding is simply fair.

Well, you can make a judicial loophole, like paying outsourced modder to make you a mod, and you can use this mod as yours? Or BI policy covered this case?

[faint nacelle]

also whatabout modders being from all over the world

[plain drum]

40 bucks for making a patch that takes 5 minutes is pretty good if youre doing 10 patches

[dawn laurel]

Nothing perfect, id rather the modder than the server host though.

Tbf I do think mod.io's policiy is a bit 'workshop but with a paywall', which I disagree with. Paywalled mods should be mods focused for server owners (who are making revenue) imo

[faint nacelle]

someone might be able to live for 500$ a month on some part of the world and in other you need 3 times that

would the cheap modders claim all the work

this is what I mean with more (much much more) deeper analyze on this thing

[oblique osprey]

I able to live for $200 per month :) What to say, I am.

[faint nacelle]

I could not for instance. so hows that gonna be fair?

or do we accept its not gonna be fair

[dawn laurel]

The top modding creators on gmod was making 6 figure $ digits, a year. It's possible, but this is like the 1% of the 1%

[faint nacelle]

sorry to say but gmod is cesspool of exploitation and IP rights violations

[plain drum]

im not talking about livable wages just enough for modders to justify the time theyre putting in

[faint nacelle]

why not though

and whats justifiable?

[oblique osprey]

The paying capacity in general not really fair thing, yk

[faint nacelle]

I know

and that does not really come through with this idea

theres no equality

[plain drum]

if they could that would be AMAZING and id love to see it. but commmunities that do decide to do this must file as a Non profit i think would be a good term of condition

[dawn laurel]

It can be, but that's a bit of a blanket argument that can be applied to any game. It's like if I said the entire modding scene is just the 'arma life' scene back in 2015 or whataver. (a case of monetised servers going wrong/too far)

It's not fair to apply that label to the modders behind TFR, etc

[faint nacelle]

was thinking of different thing

or am I thinking of some other similar acronym

anyway. I would like you guys to think about these things for few days

[dawn laurel]

I was thinking Task Force Radio as that's the only other major mod I can think of from back then. Actually, lets say dayz instead then 😅

[faint nacelle]

a it was TFL wasnt it

[oblique osprey]

I would not say thats the only thing that matters is it fair or not. Cheaper, usually means lower quality. The reputation of modder also depends on his country, partly

[leaden cipher]

🙄⬆️ maybe time to move it to #other_ip_topics

[faint nacelle]

but you are also wanting server to be able to offset the costs and all of the costs right?

[faint nacelle]

true

[plain drum]

correct

[dawn laurel]

I would have to point you to GMod, GTA, Minecraft* and Rust. Popular games that have are pro-modder-monetisation - all of these games incredibly popular
*unofficial I believe

I don't really see how IP has much to do with it either (other than just don't violate it) - its up to the marketplace to enforce the standards of mods for sale, and if they are allowing blatent IP violations then the marketplace will lose credibility with modders. It's not really a 'dooms-day' scenario.

[faint nacelle]

@dawn laurel @plain drum time to lay this to rest.

give it few days and consider the cons in more depth and maybe continue after that in #other_ip_topics

[plain drum]

I just started an email string with one of the members of the legal department with BI ill let you guys know if anything comes of it. Great conversation guys!

[faint nacelle]

alththough its not really appropriate channel for it either

[dawn laurel]

I agree to end this here.

The reality that a server can accept money from players, potentially earning far more than its operational costs, cannot be ignored. At the same time, it's unfair to prohibit servers from accepting money entirely, as running them involves infrastructure costs. Additionally, creating custom content can come at a premium, as it requires expertise and time. Custom content can also add traction to the game (dayz, life, etc), which is in arma's best interest.

For instance, if a server uses custom modded content that draws players back, those players might decide to donate money to support the server. However, if the creator of this content is not a direct member of the server team, only the server owner can take any profit from the donation. While server monetization has been heavily restricted for over 10 years, the reality is that marketplaces for modders - like the one associated to Arkensor - already exist. This isn't a new issue; it’s just one that’s been ignored.

With the introduction of the new relaxed rules, these marketplaces will likely become more prominent, as server owners with increased revenue turn to them for custom content. The modders themselves are the ones taking on the risk of violating the rules. It also unevenly rewards server owners and undermines a benefit of relaxing monetization restrictions - giving modders the freedom to thrive.

So, ultimately, the current "con" is the inconsistency in revenue rules: one set for server owners and another for modders

In reference to cons of "we want to give back to modders spiel", modders are giving time, effort & expertise - why shouldn't they deserve a slice of the (already existing) pie?

I don't have anything else to add, other than a pointer to my original question for Arkensor which has gotten a little side-tracked for when hes online (#ip_rights_violations message) 😅

[leaden cipher]

So for now it ends here untill BI staff reply with some answers 👍

[plain drum]

Here is this for the BI staff to get a summary as their time is valuable

Summary of Concerns & Proposal:

Some of us running large Arma communities are facing sustainability issues. Donations often don’t cover server costs, and modders generally won’t work for free—creating a bottleneck for monetization efforts allowed under BI’s current policy.

We’re asking if it would be possible to legitimize limited, opt-in modder compensation, where:

• Modders creating custom content for monetized servers receive a percentage of revenue.
• BI could take a commission (e.g., 10%) to cover oversight/staff costs.
• Communities would still adhere to monetization rules and be vetted through a system BI controls.

The current system allows server monetization but bans modders from being compensated for their contributions, which feels inconsistent and discourages growth.

We’re not pushing for full-blown paid mods—just a system where commissioned work that directly supports monetized servers can be fairly and transparently rewarded.

[delicate grove]

Hey, we have an IP rights violation on our APL-ND mod "SpearHead RnA Core" where a community has overridden our watermark. How do we go about getting that resolved in the event the server running our mod (and remixing + redistributing it) decide not to respect our request to not violate the license we published under?

[terse current]

What license is it published under?

[soft egret]

Well I can host my own Reforger server with 100 slots on my 45€/mo server.
People don't have to choose expensive hosters, that's a bad argument.
Sure it takes knowledge and effort to run your own server, but if you want to run your own server but are not willing to put up with the effort/money it takes, then what the heck are you doing?

I don't get the discussions of this stuff.
If you want to change the rules, you can't do that.
If you want to make BI know about it, we already know.
We already knew long before, and as has been mentioned in here multiple times, things are in progress in that regard, it just takes time. And you discussing and pushing here won't make it any faster.

Your arguments are nothing new, this has been discussed dozens of times, and the people in charge have heard all the arguments already.
Don't waste your time, it is how it is, until it's changed.

[untold night]

Can´t such massive communities pool enough money and know-how to just buy and run their own hardware instead of getting fleeced monthly?

[flint geyser]

This isn't really a hosting discussion channel, but a lot of what was said about server provider prices (including myself) here is out of touch with reality.

[dawn laurel]

I'm not sure if the 'I can do it cheaper ' argument is relevant?

Bohemia changed its monetisation policy at the start of the month because they felt server owners were struggling, so it's clearly an issue.

The discussion centres around a disparity in the rules which allows server owners to profit off modders work.

Despite the current rules for modders, modding marketplaces do exist - like the one associated with a Bohemia staff, so from an outside perspective this seems like a bit of a mess. Hoping for clarity

[golden bay]

The only thing preventing monetization are the mods rn. And i 100% understand why and even support modders who do not want other server monetize their work.

[coral torrent]

We made it possible for ccommunities to pool money to pay for server rent. Any server paying more than 120€ a month per server is being scammed. 60€ gets you the best processors (you do not need 64 threads, you need strong single core performance and e.g. 32 threads), a little bit of ram, a tiny ssd (128 gb is enough). Even if you then pay for a windows server license (which you do not as the game runs on linux with or without docker too) you can get your own dedicated server for this money and max out the slots. Or you rent one which is more expensive but will usuually also land you with 64 slots or more. They usually are not able to run more players on the shared virtual hardware anyway. So your community cost should be (wiith some buffer for website, teamspeak etc) 150€ * server you have.

And to reach this monthly you do not really need much. If a community claims they need 1000€ per month for their single server they are lying or wasting money on somebody that lies to them.

[soft egret]

I'm not sure if the 'I can do it cheaper ' argument is relevant?
It is if the main argument is "server hosting is too expensive" when that is not actually true.
You'd have to put more effort into it if you want it cheaper. But people not wanting to put in the effort to host a server, while wanting to host a server..

[coral torrent]

Montization of content being made for servers is on our radar, but it is a complex topic to figure out, becaused (and we stated this here before) we are absoletly not going to allow commercialization of mods as cash grabs. If anything we consider legal ways for individual comissions such as content made from scratch for a community, or helping others out with server setup or mod issues again payment etc. We are not going to allow "shops" to buy ready made products that involved the usage of our tools.

[golden bay]

Common Bohemia W.

Cool pfp btw @soft egret

[flint geyser]

What's the point of spreading hosting misinformation like that? It is dangerous to make people believe things that aren't true - it is concerning to see coming from BI

I know it's just opinions, but if it comes from someone like a BI employee, people have a tendency to trust it more, which is the concerning part

[dawn laurel]

We are not going to allow "shops" to buy ready made products that involved the usage of our tools.

I have to point out, again, you are associated with one of these already existing "shops". With that in context, this comes off as 'nobody else can do it other than me'.

[rich whale]

Why do ppl always mention G mod in those discussions

[rich whale]

Theres so many other games out there which have a billion market caps in their modding industries like Minecraft. Those modders earn big bucks and earn around 5 figures a month.

You can sell mods legally and totally ok. Not everyone has to always pull out Gmod as example with IP rights infringements

[hallow glen]

Now you flexing eh?

But, paying someone to make a mod, that will be monetized by a server - this it's just a visual Barbie stuff that doesn't affect server, WHILE THE MOD is available for everyone outside of said server, isn't too bad.

The only thing that I can see happening is people being angry that they paid for a mod and everyone else can use it too.

If the outcome is usable by everyone, I don't see what the issue could be.
If the outcome is buried deep inside a mod deditaced to a server, it's imo a bit weird.

[rich whale]

Other games like Minecraft already showed there's a big interest in doing community exclusive and specific content for servers.

There's literally almost millions flowing through those modded servers every month. Modders and server owners alike earning 5 figures. And no IP infringements (or atleast I only heard of 2) happening.

I'd be disappointed in BI from a business perspective if they don't see the possible market there

[hallow glen]

Yeah, and I still somehow fail to see how it's relevant to Arma?

There are countries where weed is legal too and people earn 5 figures selling it legally.
I don't see the Czech Republic, or other countries legalizing just because others did.

Your "it worked elsewhere" argument has no merit, as this isn't those "other games".

There's no business perspective. BI wants mods to be available to everyone, as they should be. You trying to paywall content for a game is not "players first" thinkin. I'm glad BI has this school of thought

[split minnow]

To be fair, the IP rights issues for gmod tend to be from the workshop, not typically from the paid platforms.
Disclaimer, I am the community manager for a gmod paid modding platform.

[rich whale]

The reality is every game which lets modders get bucks has high quality of mods and custom tailored to communities needs and wants.

It's relevant to ARMA because BI sticks to this stance of no paid modders, even tho there's examples like Skyrim and Minecraft out there who have modding communities without doing ANY IP infringements and earning millions in a month all combined.

It's relevant to ARMA 4 because that's a big market not being capitalized and not being a share cut for BI. Less money flowing into future ARMA development and games. Less money for investors.

"I don't see Czech republic legalising just because others did"

You literally see addicts which you can tax and get money and get you out of your economic depression but you're like "Noo I don't want that money noo"

same with modders. You see modders doing money and Devs getting cuts in other games and you just don't want free money?

Please never be a economic minister (sry for sounding rude but this was either way a offtopic remark / mention in a modding discussion, comparing mods to drugs)

Because free money is free money. And companies are showing they are making big bucks from it (Bethesda, Mojang)

[hallow glen]

You fail to see, that BI is SOMEHOW STILL PLAYER FIRST and not profit first company.
If you don't like it, that's your right. If you want to give BI your money, you have ways be it buying their games on different accounts, or the merch shop.

I, and many others, will keep enjoying this while we can.

Also, it's clear you have no idea what shady stuff was/is happening in A3 modding and especially in DayZ modding. What you're proposing has never working in BI titles.

[rich whale]

Stop pulling examples of.developers who didn't moderate or did nothing with contracts and on a legal basis to make it realistic for modders to be held responsible.

How about you gimme examples from other games and not from BI and Gmod which both have really bad reputation of moderation of mods on their platforms? Hmm?

[split minnow]

damn okay you really gonna do us like that

[rich whale]

Hahaha I was part of gmod servers too. We can't hide that brother haha

[hallow glen]

Minecraft.
Let me just really quickly go on this server and GAMBLE as a 11yo. In a slot Machine 🙂

Now, thank you for your opinion. I'll now return back to modding because I love this game and like to provide quality content for players, where I do it from the goodness of my heart.

[frigid heart]

Skyrim ..... without doing ANY IP infringements
there is hundreds of skyrim mods that violate IP laws
Less money flowing into future ARMA development and games.
or possibly more money due to having a freely accessible modding workshop where you don't have to pay for anything which draws in more players because they know they don't have to spend hundreds just to play on the server they saw a video of somewhere
Less money for investors.
I don't see how this is relevant to you? also BI is privately owned so completely irrelevant

[split minnow]

Depends what you mean by gmod servers, to be fair, and at what time. We've had a pretty stringent submissions and curation process since at least since I've been on the platform.

If you mean the workshop or the toybox or anything like that, then yeah fair enough

[split minnow]

Goodness of your heart doesn't keep your electricity on. Hard to mod when your PC doesn't turn on. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[rich whale]

Those Skyrim mods are not offered on Bethesda's mod workshop which is Bethesda's way of doing money via modders and.let modders earn money.

So there was never IP infringements in PAID mod content on Skyrim so that statement is false. I explicitly stated Devs selling mods and earning profits and Skyrim didn't infringe anything.

2nd point. You don't draw in the big modder teams who want money so you don't have the best modders. Best modders are teams of 20 ppl actually working like a team. Hard to compete as solo modder against that.

Third point. Privately owned doesn't mean there's isn't a* Company Owner who drives you guys for profits and making crossplay launches so you expand your market. You guys also do smart business decisions. Let this also be one

[rich whale]

I was explicitly talking about gmod servers selling.exclusive infringed content which is totally not ok

[split minnow]

I see, my bad. There's been a couple of related topics in here :)

[coral torrent]

Which never involved the use of the A3 tools 🙂

[soft egret]

As I said above.
If all you're trying to accomplish with this discussion is "BI please allow modders to make money" then you are wasting your time here.

[frigid heart]

You don't draw in the big modder teams who want money
perhaps we prefer genuine community driven projects(of which there is a lot) vs projects that are just here to make as much money as possible
Best modders are teams of 20 ppl actually working like a team.
entirely subjective, there is hundreds of great mods made by a single person or small teams

[rich whale]

I'm just throwing also ideas out. Like a mod workshop like Skyrim might be an idea where you make contracts with modders and then you also earn profits

[split minnow]

Temple OS

[rich whale]

In a capitalistic world? It's hard to argue like this if your company might go bankrupt next month cuz a guy in the whitehouse does stupid shit.

I'm just saying. In the end of the day there's lots of ppl willing to pay for mods and willing to pay for quality and for Devs to get a share of it.

For me as business man money is the biggest motivator for most ppl. And I've already made like 2 big donations to modders so they don't have to work anymore and only worked on the mods, and those turned out to be really nice (Bannerlord Shokuho)

• Bannerlord Coop

[hallow glen]

RHS be like
CUP be like

You probably don't know, but have you ever checked what all Španěl and Pavlíček (tencent we can ignore) own? BI is their passion project at this point... Thus why it's consumer first...

Bringing in money just makes it a hostile environment for everyone and goes very much so against what Mario wants to achieve with Reforger.

A3 mods are currently used as a "lure/reason" to play on a server. There's tons of "private" mods obfuscated by the shit mikero made and other techniques, that contain DRM and will fuck up your game if you try to side load them. Then there are people reverse engineering them and remaking them, so they can also use them.

If we all just allow everyone to look inside mods, how they are made, it's a great learning resource for future modders. But you can't have that when you need to "protect" your investment.

It's clear you don't see the bigger picture here and you're very, very money motivated. I'm sad for you, but guess it works out for you.

[midnight compass]

There is not much to discuss here. If you want to sell mods in a store, then this platform is not for you.

[queen lodge]

I can give you a counter example for Bannerlord as it appears you're a fan: Bannerlord Online. It's a predatory cash-grab and the game developers don't see a peny from it.

[rich whale]

Sad. Had some modder teams from Minecraft contact me, a 30 man team interested to do mods. But they gotta pay their modders so this quality won't come to ARMA sadly it seems like

[hallow glen]

Thank you, I'll gladly not play slots in Arma.

[split minnow]

Kinda rude to make that assumption

[rich whale]

So you'd rather have one guy work multiple weekends on ends and evenings for your enjoyment? Months and weeks? And then just abandon it

And those big teams gotta eat too. Quality costs.

[hallow glen]

Arma
Modding
Is
Passion
Project

We all do it for free. On our weekends and nights after our jobs.

You fail to see it. Once you realise it, your whole world view will probably change...

[midnight compass]

Sounds like you want to make a game instead.

[frigid heart]

You can bring up the same 2 arguments again and again but the answer has been given, now lets get this channel back on topic for what this channel is actually for
#ip_rights_violations message

[midnight compass]

Modding is a side product we release to the community to tailor the game to their needs.

It's not a business aimed product.

It's so that players can take the sandbox aspect of the game and make their own creativity peak.

[rich whale]

Yee I LL leave it at that but all the guys just pulled Gmod as example while there's minecraft and Skyrim making millions in mods. There are companies.out there making it work and some ppl made it sound like it's not possible, but it is

[midnight compass]

Instead of being constrained into the game itself.

You are seeing it as a game dev platform. Which it is not.

[rich whale]

Modding can be free and monetized. Nobody said you have to monetise only (look Mojang or Skyrim) and now I LL leave it here. I worked with those mod teams and saw the numbers. Would wish RHS to gain 100k.a.month

[midnight compass]

We are not closed to the idea to allow some way to monetize, but it will be quite restrictive to not breed these mod marketplaces.

[rich whale]

Yee so only RHS can sell in future I see how it will workhahahaa

[midnight compass]

What we do not want is to have players and server owners have to pay for licenses

Or incite toxic communities which is very common in these paid scenarios

[midnight compass]

?

[split minnow]

ouch you really gotta do me like that

[midnight compass]

What did I do?. I don't know you 😅

[hallow glen]

It's funny how you bring out the second most "never sell anything and we do it as passion project for the community" people. Especially since it's actually a big team creating very high quality mods...

Some people should think before they type...

[midnight compass]

I am not refering to a specific community.

But it is very common for that to happen when money is involved

[rich whale]

Just pulling y'all's leg, but this will be the statement of ppl if you let RHS monetize and other not for example.

Just a consideration for the future if you let certain ppl monetize and others not

[midnight compass]

What does RHS has to do here?

I never mentioned it

And everyone gets dealt the same, as has been seen here multiple times when a big modder gets sanctioned

[crimson ingot]

RHS itself never allow monetization of their mods, so the argument is kinda void

[rich whale]

I mentioned it as example. On Skyrim there was also drama because a modding team doesn't get featured on the modding workshop from Bethesda cuz of drama.

I just mention it cuz this will be the future of this if you allow certain monetization for mods and for certain mods not.

I could've also said DarkGru but RHS is the current example which I picked now

[midnight compass]

If a modder does not get monetized approved then there is a reason.

Same as with server owners right now.

[rich whale]

Which you will keep to yourself so ppl will speculate and hate you. I just warn you of how it happened and went down in Skyrim with this system ( which you need to keep to yourself, legally)

[midnight compass]

We do not really go by popularity of a community on these things.

It's based on a clear set of rules and that is it.

[midnight compass]

Server monetization is quite clear...

[split minnow]

Eh, not really in my experience. If you've got a consistent set of rules, you'll get the odd person complaining but often if you can point to why, it'll be accepted.

[midnight compass]

We have been doing this for long. We know what happens.

We did not start with modding on Arma 2 or after 😉

[rich whale]

Which you need to do legally. Understandable for me (for others not)

[midnight compass]

Thing is, our decisions are made with thought about it. And experiences from the past.
There are restrictions for a reason and there are no exceptions to be made.

[rich whale]

Yee I'm just spitting experience I got from what happened in Skyrim when certain teams weren't put on that Bethesda mod page, and then drama ensues bla bla bla.

I actually also took the RHS example because that would be a controversial one for example for some ppl (not for me) but ye, humans are humans. Speculating rather than asking and clarifying

[rich whale]

It's a theoretical argument in a fictional setting so it's still viable, since in fiction laws can change. I only mentioned RHS cuz ppl tie them together with drama a lot even tho I personally don't associate with that (tho I hate PuFu from old A2 days xD)

[midnight compass]

Yeah unfortunately even if they are in the wrong, drama ensues.

That drama should not make you not enforce things however 🙂

[dawn laurel]

I mean that's a massive technicality, but sure... the game itself is being used as a tool to test and showcase these mods, however I can see it's not like reforger where the modding tools are more 'in the middle' of the modding process.

You make a model in blender -> drop into enfusion tools -> you lose the ability to sell at the final hurdle

I guess that's why all the existing "shops", including your own, have shyed away from reforger mods

[rich whale]

Haha funny thing is, Sry if it's offtopic, but that Skyrim drama is actually the perfect example of this scenario of ppl being dumb asses.

Mod team mod doesn't get added to Bethesda Mod Workshop. They get angry and complain. Bethesda says there's good reason to not include you guys. They don't say cuz of legal reasons.

Drama ensues, 2 months of shittalking Devs and then a Bethesda dev explodes and writes:

"Well if you guys wouldn't be infringing on other ppls work AND ADDITIONALLY if your lead Dev wasn't a convicted pedo, then maybe youd be able to join our workshop"

Man got fired immediately and Bethesda sued for defamation which they had to pay.

Like company's will always loose in legal cases like this if you just blabber a lil bit of personal info out

Ppl in the wrong, dev being right, but still only the dev being punished for it cuz legally you can't expose ppl like this (or it's defamation)

[crimson ingot]

sounds like a good reason not to talk about it in public

[rich whale]

Yee, apparently he didn't push for it but his whole team did. Apparently he knew the reason xD

[midnight compass]

Go to offtopic if you want to discuss that.

[rich whale]

Ppl also forgot if BI accuses RHS for example on infringing, that's an accusation. A court needs to investigate and then say if he's actually infringing and then it's legal copyright infringement

If BI say someone infringes that is just a claim and can be fought on defamation basis.

[crimson ingot]

like i said, best to talk about it not in public, it's between 2 party

[midnight compass]

Which is why people never get the reasons someone got banned unless the modder says so

It's the part people do not understand on why these things are handled between the involved parties only.

[midnight compass]

Also it is not just that simple. But off topic.

In anyway or form no developer should talk shade/badly about a community member still.

But they are not representatives btw

Only a few of the green names here are.

The rest are just developers with their own opinions.

[dawn laurel]

Unfortunately, I suspect this discussion will become more and more frequent now server owners are more likely to be making increased revenue off the back off modders content, made by the monetisation change.

I also think this dynamic will mean it will struggle to retain fresh upstart modders to other games with a more pro-modder/creator stance like:

• GMod
• Rust
• Minecraft
• GTA
• Roblox
• s&box

But ultimately it's a Bohemia game and you call the shots. It will be an interesting case-study to see how it plays out over the next few years, as I feel it's against the grain of what others are doing

[rich whale]

Offtopic, but Moby does deserve a green name too, just to sprinkle some confusion around

[midnight compass]

I think this went unread
#ip_rights_violations message

Feel free to state what you think would be a good approach.

Just be productive about it.

(Don't get heated if you do not agree on someone's else)

[rich whale]

I saw the Skyrim workshop in action and I'm not sure if that would be it. But other avenues might also be cool to take a look at.

Many different and good ways to go about this. You guys will find a good one 👍

[dawn laurel]

Indeed it did!

That's good to know. I agree that restrictions should be in place too, it shouldn't be a total free for all. I think that's what the gmod community did correctly where mods were judged to be worthy of being sold or told to be put on the workshop - I suspect our opinions on these restrictions differ though, but that can be a discussion for another day! 😅

@split minnow can probably provide the best insight on this side of things (cm of gmod marketplace )

[split minnow]

Yeah if y'all's want any info please feel free to reach out.

[echo orchid]

i would suggest you stop bringing stuff that is 100% unrelated to this channel. Example - RHS or myself
ps: Have no idea who you are btw
ps2: i have spent countless hours removing assets i own from so called made from scratch mods from gmod, rust, roblox, gta etc. So not sure how any of these are actual examples here

[midnight compass]

From what I see some confuse action not being taken on those mods in those platform as being complaint (Free of violations).

But it is the same as here with some mods that were not taken down for a while but then later on when found out properly.

[echo orchid]

and to be fair, it is almost completly unmoderated. for roblox specifically, it is a cesspoll, a lot worst than on gmod prime times (when facepunch was still in existence)

[queen lodge]

I like the idea of share some percentage royalty to modders who release content with permissive licenses. No storefronts, just a carrot on a stick.

[rich whale]

I gave Skyrim and Minecraft especially as example, where monetization of mods happens regulated through Devs and contracts, so I don't know why you mention games again specifically which I mentioned earlier have past history of having moderated IP infringements incorrectly. Hell if you read anything I wrote you would've seen I explicitly said multiple times those companies did it incorrectly while there's companies out there like Mojang and Bethesda who keep a tight watch on community servers and have contracts for monetized contents.

Just because ppl change their names(I did), doesn't mean ppl won't forget what other ppl did back in the day, and since I'm seeing you nitpick again only the hills you can fight on, I'll leave it at this and won't continue this convo any further. Have a blessed day.

[rustic copper]

There is only one hill and that is the TOS/EULA/rules of Arma and BI, which is very clear against commercial use of their software (for obvious reasons, and have been repeated several times). That is the only hill that matters, and clearly people are trying to fight that for whatever reason.

Arma is not the same as Skyrim or Minecraft, and BI is not the same as Bethesda or Microsoft, so I'm not sure why these games/companies are used as a reference either...

Fact is, as can be seen in other games/platforms/publishers, that monatizing mods is not helping the community at all and only make illegal solutions more worthwhile... Even right now there's already a huge market of stolen assets (which were free to begin with) in- and outside Arma, and getting paid mods will just make that worse.

[rich whale]

This is a subjective opinion and didnt stop Bethesda or Minecraft from monetizing mods and mario even mentioned earlier it might change in the future (might) with ARMA and he said an open discussion is welcome.

Yes I agree the EULA says right now its not possible, but just looking at other successful examples cant hurt to expand one's knowledge and horizon.

I still am not the biggest fan of skyrim bethesda workshop, but from a company perspective having to feed mouths and provide profit, why not?

[rustic copper]

I don't see how Skyrim is a success story for paid mods... the whole community went crazy when that happened (even more then when the horse armor DLC came out...), and even now paid mods are basicaly non-existing as they're low effort mods just for the money while free mods are available with much more quality...

And there's a difference in mods for single player games (where you only need to buy it for yourself), or for multiplayer games (where everyone needs to buy it). Because trust me; servers with paid mods will die out very quickly as nobody wants to pay for stuff they can get for free elsewhere...

It's already a problem with DLC's, if a server requires a DLC, only people who bought it will be able to play there...

[rich whale]

good points you raise there. As I said, just open discussion Im also not the biggest fan of the skyrim workshop but from a company point of view its still profitable to do.

You also raise a good point about the multiplayer

I just know of the benefits of big organized modder groups which get like wages etc since those guys are always ready and able to provide murder content.

Probably the most recent example would be the modding team behind the Space Marine 2 12 player coop mod? I mean it also got added with help from developers, but such feats wouldnt be possible if 10 guys couldnt just go crack at a code the whole week. Without being paid and having to work beside its just harder to release top quality content imho

[midnight compass]

I was asking more to provide points as perspective of player, server, modder.

What is relevant for BI as company here is not going to be discussed here, ever.

So, avoid that. As it is irrelevant.

[rustic copper]

But how would the modding community look like if the developers of CBA, ACE, CUP, RHS, TFAR, ACRE, etc. (just to name a few of large and well known A3 mods) would put a price tag on their mods, or ask money from servers who want to use those mods...

Yes, it would be great if those devs would get paid for their work (although it would still never be enough), but in the end nobody will buy it or find "alternative" ways to use it without paying. And thus mods will not be created anymore as there is no reason to spend time/money when nobody plays it...

[midnight compass]

Only sort of monetization we currently allow for modders is CDLCs. But this is more professional level with proper publishing and studios behind it.

https://arma3.com/dlc/creator

There is information about how it works below. From the FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS and below.

If you want to provide nice content, well structured and have a team. nothing stops you from pitching a CLDC from the email down there.

[rich whale]

thanks for that! I actually might give that link to that minecraft modding team which asked me for legal information. I know they have a publisher so it might be useful for them! Thanks for the link!

but thats for A3 only right? Or does this also apply for Arma Reforger?

[prime stratus]

Yea arma 3 only reforger does t do cdlc to my knowledge

[rich whale]

didnt even know about CDLC hmmmm. opens up some doors in my mind. But you'd need money for those doors which this economy is draining from me*

They asked me for Reforger tho specifically but since I've never seen a CDLC offered, being announced or anything, that is maybe something for the future of Reforger.

[midnight compass]

A3.
We act as publisher in this case.

[faint nacelle]

I am little bit against some "pro modder groups" coming into the scene to get free help with their work from the community.

The CDLCs crews for Arma3 consist of people who have been modding these games for over decade

[rich whale]

thanks for the info! Will direct the team towards that page 👍

[faint nacelle]

I treat that as people from the modding scene getting opportunity to bit of recognition and payback

but some pro groups coming in, needing to basically be taught by the community to make mods for this platform and then milk that for money

leaves sour taste

also waste of time to teach if they are here only for the money and gone like fart in the wind when money stops coming

so to me that does not sound like appealing prospect

[rich whale]

it depends I think. With server monetization you'll get the PvP server groups who are making a business about it in every game either way, so we already opened those gates halfway. I understand your point personally, because for me opportunistic art aiming only for profits is never the best, there still needs to be some underlying motive for it to reach greatness.

But looking back at some of those projects, most of those wouldn't be alive without the money (Example Space Marine 2 12 Coop player mod)

[faint nacelle]

in context of Arma, all the succesfull ones have been made by passion

[rich whale]

But also abandonded because it isnt feasible to run / develop a long time. I was once invited to a modcon in mojang and it was interesting to see how they discussed longevity of mods with financial problems etc

[echo orchid]

Skyrim modding scene is meh, Minecraft is limited in terms of 3d assets, and that is precisely where most IP issues stems from.

[faint nacelle]

but wouldnt the paid guys abandon it just as well when it dont make profit no more

[delicate grove]

Is paying for people to create mods for your server a violation of BI ToS?

[faint nacelle]

yes

[echo orchid]

organized modding groups that are able to pay real world wages are really really rare, no matter of the game

[rich whale]

it's hard to say. Not lots of researches and studies made about it but it would be really interesting to gather some data around this topic

[delicate grove]

May I dm someone about a "recruiting" post I found offering money in exchange for mod development, then?

[echo orchid]

server monetization is not meant to create businesses type modelks

[echo orchid]

yes

paying for mods is prohibited, no matter if it is for a specific server or whatever else

[faint nacelle]

my assumption from modding this game series for over a decade.

I dont think it needs research

it makes sense if someone is here just for the money, they be gone elsewhere where there is more money once teh tap runs dry

[delicate grove]

I don't really want to post anything in here to stir up Arma Reforger community drama, but there is compensation happening for mod development in a large server.

[faint nacelle]

you can make #discord_tickets and tag @midnight compass in that

[dawn laurel]

Just a heads up I've sent you a DM regarding this 🙂

[rustic copper]

I created a mod for a community and didn't even get a t-shirt
Did get a virtual medal though 😅

[rich whale]

I just thought with the server monetization some of those communities would blob over. But looking now on the server list it does look they're not taking over 🤣 WCS holding that hill.

[rustic copper]

Most likely because they wouldn't be able to get permission anyway

[echo orchid]

currently there are only 5 approved servers for reforger
https://www.bohemia.net/monetization/approved/armareforger

[midnight compass]

This server monetization is not a new thing.

It's there for a long time for A3 and DayZ

It's just that it was not there for Arma Reforger before.

We are quite strict with Approvals on AR though.

You have to follow the licenses of the mods that you are using.

So if the mods do not allow you to monetize, then you can't unless you have specific permission from the authors.

So, server owners can't exploit modder's work unfairly.

I feel like for the most part you will see approved servers being only those that make their own mods themselves.

[rich whale]

you'd have to get all the permissions and such. understandable yee

[queen lodge]

Maybe 5 years ago it was the case but it's not anymore. Fortnite and Roblox both have multi-billion dollar mod industries. Flightsim pretty niche but still a 100 million+ market. Many jobs to be found.

[faint nacelle]

roblox also is full of unregulated child labor exploitation

[plain drum]

Not true server owners are now charging extra because their UI in their panel is more user friendly. Larger communities are going for these servers as they help staff manage servers better when they are inexperienced

[plain drum]

Not at all the thought behind this, the goal is to help bring in more money to help a server cost due to optional purchases such as cosmetic items in the game nothing that would cause for players to forcibly pay to play the game

[faint nacelle]

Anyway

[bitter anchor]

This is just my two cents as I own the 75th Servers on Reforger and haven't read much of the above. Currently we are paying about $1,200 month for 4 Machines which run about 22 Servers across all four machines. Donations each month vary between $400-$800 a month, I very rarely break even with donations and have maybe only done it 2-3 months out of the 2-3 years i've been running servers on Reforger. The rest comes straight out of my pocket, which honestly I don't mind paying for. At the end of the day this is a hobby for me, and as a lot of people do people spend money on there hobbies. I don't know what all has been discussed here but i'm fine either way.

[plain drum]

I did some rough calculations and lowballed all the numbers, this idea would bring in about 96,000 yearly

[faint nacelle]

Have you considered downsizing to what is manageable?

Though I'll have to cut this short since it's really offtopic for the channel.

[plain drum]

Where do I go?

[leaden cipher]

With your arguments to discuss further: nowhere on this discord as your points "summary of concerns and proposals" (and following questions/suggestions from others) have have been answered: #ip_rights_violations message #ip_rights_violations message

[plain drum]

I finished my points last night but it got brought back up today, I’m handling this through email with BI going forward. But it was very interesting to see everyone’s side in this issue. Thanks for letting us express them. Mějte se hezky!

[hallow glen]

Then I would suggest investing 90 minutes into learning basic admin stuff and ditch whoever is overcharging you. It's crazy how much you can save with a little bit of googling. (In your case it's approximately $900)

[dawn laurel]

No, you are misleading.

#ip_rights_violations message

#ip_rights_violations message

[leaden cipher]

@dawn laurel he pitched about servers, that was stopt, not about mods, he wrote his essay, that has been read, just als all the other feedback, and he is contacting BI by email 👍

[dawn laurel]

I don't think you actually read "his essay" 👍

[faint nacelle]

no need to comment further thanks

[dawn laurel]

So I shouldn't call out blatant misinformation? I should be silent because you don't agree with me?

This is rather unprofessional for a "discord_moderator"

[bitter anchor]

I mean we have anywhere between 600-1000 people playing across 4 Machines. with it being $1,200 and 22 Servers that comes out around $55 Per server which is pretty good. I doubt I could get a server that could hold and sustain 64-128 players with mods for what you are saying is $300 which would be $13 a Server.

[faint nacelle]

Im moderating the channel as the topic was already deemed off the channels purpose before. Yes we had a chat about it, but that does not mean the topic takes over the channel.
your remark about "discord_moderator" is also not welcome here.

this applies to everyone else too.

[bitter anchor]

I'll move my convo somewhere else, was just replying, thank you for your assistance

[faint nacelle]

👍

@dawn laurel you dont need to reply further

thanks

[dawn laurel]

Why do you continue to spread misinformation? #ip_rights_violations message
If you don't think it should be in this channel, where should it be?

[faint nacelle]

you can dm Mario about it.

this is final.

[dawn laurel]

The message implies its an open discussion - where others can weigh in #ip_rights_violations message

If Mario would rather have this discussion in private, they can say that, but I don't want to send them private messages if they don't want them...

[faint nacelle]

you can DM him yes.

[dawn laurel]

Are you his secretary? I could be mistaken, but I'm not sure you're in the position to greenlight that.

This tit-for-tat is adding nothing to the conversation, so let's stop it.

[faint nacelle]

Your way of talking earns you a vacation from here. This kind of behavior is not welcome.

I dont know if he thought saying all those things was worth it.

or somehow helpful for his cause.

anyway. back to topic

[golden bay]

Hey, sorry for bothering but I have a bit of a question that’s somewhat related to IP rights but not entirely.

I’m more in the need of a few advice regarding my mod and server hosting.

Is there anyone i can reach out to that would be able to answer my questions?(preferably in dms if possible)

[faint nacelle]

You can DM me and I can point you towards right person when I know more about the specifics of the issue

#other_ip_topics can be used

[golden bay]

I'd rather keep it in dms if you don't mind.

[faint nacelle]

sure

[golden bay]

Thank you

[graceful willow]

As someone that is a part of the effort for a server group, it takes time to build replacement mods for ones that don't allow monetization.

[golden bay]

It’s always longer to make your own mods and content rather than to just hit « download » and monetize someone else’s work.

[flint geyser]

I think I will consider being okay with my mods being used on servers that monetize as long as none of my content is monetized and the mods are not used as an incentive for people to play on that server

[golden bay]

That’s fair enough. I just get a little pissy with all of those server owners begging to have the right to ignore the modder’s licenses and monetize regardless of the mod author’s approval.

[flint geyser]

the idea is that if I am a modder and I declare I'm ok with the above then all the servers are on equal ground since everyone can use the mods

[hallow glen]

Are you gonna allow them to monetize access to the mod itself. Because your arsenal could be considered a "Barbie" feature, as you're able to achieve the same with the vanilla arsenal.

Would say it's important to specify usage on monetized servers and being monetized.

[flint geyser]

"as long as none of my content is monetized"

[ebon flint]

So from my understanding, you cannot lock a mod from a certain group/community, unless they alter it without permission?

[rustic copper]

You can; either by putting it in your EULA/licence (which requires manually checking and sending C&D and/or DMCA) or by making your mod not work for said group/community/server (without breaking their server/client).

[gritty pivot]

so if a server locks the admin tool with the key, that would break their server correct

[cinder pewter]

yeah I too, am confused because I thought working this key system into mods and locking specific people out of them was against the rules? is anyone here able to just explain the rules around this to me in laymans terms lol

[gritty pivot]

i mean it is why the whole RAM situation happened no?

[echo orchid]

no

[rustic copper]

If you implement a key (or other version of DRM / whitelisting / blacklisting ) which will allow a server/client to operate without issues, even when it disables the features of your mod, there's no problem with it.

If you crash a client/server, prevent it from working or limit the game in any other way (eg. forcefully limit FPS, or spam the logs with spam), then it's NOT allowed.

[echo orchid]

you can, but basically you can do that without directly affecting the normal use of the game

[gritty pivot]

it disables someone elses mod, which is bacons admin tools

specificly the spearhead mod does it

[echo orchid]

@flint geyser ^^

[cinder pewter]

same issue here

[rustic copper]

Does the game/server still work, even when the mods are loaded?
Then I don't see any issues with it, although it's a bit weird that mod A requires a key for mod B, which on it's own doesn't require a key 🤔

[gritty pivot]

the second Mod A (spearhead) is loaded disables mod B (bacons admin tools)
without Mod A it doesnt affect Mod B

[flint geyser]

It depends on if it's intentional modification or just a conflict

[gritty pivot]

it would be a conflict if the issue was there before the key was added

[cinder pewter]

so the issue is that since the addition of the key its causing issues with other mods that would normaly not conflict with it, verry weird issue that has happened

[flint geyser]

wats the id or name of the mod I'll look at it

[gritty pivot]

its the Spearhead Core mod

its not actually on the workshop unfortunatly

[flint geyser]

doesnt matter, I'll check it out thanks

[rustic copper]

65643E820F3A281C

[flint geyser]

They are not disabling my mod button, they have simply changed the pause menu with their own, so it is not directed at my mod which modifies vanilla pause menu to add content to it

[delicate grove]

We are, in fact, not disabling your mod.

[cinder pewter]

i think the pause menu is overlaying it, this only started today so idk whats happened

[delicate grove]

Nor anyone's mods, for that matter. We gracefully allow the server to continue to be playable, with all other mods loaded. If the mod is conflicting with your server, we'd encourage removing it for compatibility reasons.

[gritty pivot]

but why is the admin menu now suddenly conflicting ever since the key was added thats what doesnt make sense to me, because seeminly once the key is provided it works

[cinder pewter]

mabye the SH loading screens have changed since the update thats conflicting with it as this is super recent, either way this isnt anything to do with #ip_rights_violations lol

[flint geyser]

There are no conflicts, I've explained what was done above, don't overthink it

[delicate grove]

If you all would like some help, the discord link is in our code comments.

[cinder pewter]

👍

[soft egret]

That also came with Arma 3, although a bit later.
There were lots of servers violating the licenses. When that got a lot more attention and reports came in, then it also got more attention for approvals, but it was a bit late at that point.

[golden bay]

Since storing data related to a user's device is not permitted, but could be very helpful for purposes like detecting ban evasion and other specific cases, I wanted to know if :

• Would it be acceptable to store fully anonymized GPU data (with no link whatsoever to the user's profile) in order to monitor FPS and evaluate the performance of my mod?

• Would it be allowed to store hashed representations of certain data, solely for the purpose of comparing values at login to identify suspicious redundancies? This approach would ensure that no usable information can be extracted from the stored data.

I'm also open to providing BI access to this data for review and verification to ensure everything is handled appropriately.

Thanks in advance!

[flint geyser]

There's GPU information available in script?

[novel goblet]

Doesn't matter, if you server requires a mod with a .dll extension.

Is playerUID not good enough for ban purposes? Or is there enough people that throw $30 for a new account on every ban?

[flint geyser]

Ban avoiding is free since you can use family sharing

[novel goblet]

Won't the whole family not just get banned then?

[flint geyser]

You can just make new accounts for free

[golden bay]

Gpu name(not hwid), so by using data such as the name of the gpu, native screen size, cli parama, etc etc you can increase your chances of finding someone ban evading

[flint geyser]

Sounds like a great way to ban a lot of innocent people

[golden bay]

It wouldn’t be an immediate ban, just a little log to warn that the guy may be evading. By also using machine name etc you can narrow down the search.

[novel goblet]

I only play with trusted people, so I've not been in this situation. But let me ask: is it even worth it? What is the practical different between a ban evader and "any other player". If they misbehave they will get banned (again), if they don't is it really a problem if the ban evader has learned to play nicely?

[golden bay]

The server i contribute to deal with cheaters and ban evaders daily. Some people come back with more than 8 different accounts, fully dedicated to ruin the other player’s experience.

[flint geyser]

It is unfortunate that modders and server owners have to go to such lengths because the game developers dont want to use an anticheat that works

[novel goblet]

Didn't realize those people actively wanted to spend their time ruining others experiences. Yeah, that does sound awful.

[flint geyser]

Currently the options for dealing with PC cheaters are:

1. Ban their identityid (unique reforger id per account)
2. Ban their battleye guid (computed per steam account?)
3. Use profile/machine name or both to create some kind of fingerprint/custom id (or any other data from similar source in script)
4. Block the IP address of the player in a firewall

All of the above are easily evaded

[golden bay]

And storing machine name / profile name is against the guidelines

[novel goblet]

Profile name is completely useless if people ban-evade SteamId via family sharing; changing your profile name is way easier. Can even be done via, launcher. IP is not nice, since own its own , you may target, either too many (sharing of IP), or target potentially the wrong person (CGNAT=IP cycles between households).

[flint geyser]

Basically there is no good way to get rid of those trolls

[umbral radish]

Even then on Xbox as long as ONE account has gold you can keep cranking out accounts and playing on them. idk about PSN

[fleet moss]

Xbox doesn't have cheaters though - but griefers yeah

[golden bay]

Yeah but xbox and ps5 players tends to rage hack less often

[woeful reef]

Yes they do and it's the same on PS5

[prime stratus]

You’d be surprised

[bitter anchor]

Don't know if this is the right place to ask was curious about some of the monetization stuff, was curious about the Halo Mods/UNSC Mods since I read something about servers not being able to make money off them due to the xbox monetization policy. Does this mean UNSC/Halo Servers using these Halo Mods are not allowed to accept Server Donations ?

Long story short via through discord we have Subscriptions to allow people an outlet to donate, it provides no in game advantages or in game access to anything that anybody else doesn't have access to. But the Subscription does provide a cool discord role with a color change and access to a donators channel. Is this against any rules BI has in place ?

[rustic copper]

The monerization rules only apply to in-game "gifts" in return for money.
Donations without any game related gifts are completely fine, like special Discord permissions or even if you send a community t-shirt as a thank you.

[bitter anchor]

Ahh ok thank you for the clarification, was a little confused

[rustic copper]

Check https://www.bohemia.net/monetization which contains some do's and dont's

[bitter anchor]

Will do, thanks

[faint nacelle]

I would probably ask this from Microsoft instead since Halo IP rules come from them. You will need to reach someone high enough in the chain who can give definite answer though.

[bitter anchor]

Alright, thanks for the info

[wind fractal]

Bear in mind, all of the large Halo mod teams have explicitly stated they will not participate in monetization.

[golden bay]

Reposting that since i would really love an answer ^^

[queen lodge]

Does BI have another option? Or when BI bans someone from the Workshop/Game, can that also be bypassed for free with Steam family sharing?

[flint geyser]

Most effective way to ban someone is to go into their home and take their PC away from them

[delicate hamlet]

https://tenor.com/view/computer-gif-7772800417258216914

[prime stratus]

https://tenor.com/view/f-bi-raid-swat-gif-11500735

[rich whale]

BI hiring for new position. Only requirement: Be able to outrun the fat arma player.

https://tenor.com/view/rodevs-yankue-thief-gif-18779711

[prime stratus]

Private swat teams for enforcing bi bans lmao

[prime stratus]

How’s the pay

[queen lodge]

I don't see why ban is not tied to purchase. Surely cheaters would be somewhat discouraged if they had to buy the game again to avoid ban.

[flint geyser]

Exactly, the identityid could be based on ownership not account

[bitter anchor]

Yah there is a big difference between monetization and accepting donations though 🤣 is what i'm getting at. Someone thought I was monetizing things when in actuality it's just a way of donating to the servers.

[wind fractal]

I see, yeah there's no problem on the modding end if you're just getting discord stuff

[teal garden]

Any news regarding A2 DayZ copy pasta ( Arma 3 Desolation ) IP rights violations? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA7BsW8kQso&feature=youtu.be&t=17m2s

[chilly silo]

Consumer rights laws mostly.

[storm cliff]

If I use (unbinarized) stuff from an APL-SA mod, do I have to release my mod unbinarized, too?

[pure glade]

No @storm cliff just make sure you specify where it all came from.

@teal garden please do your research first, it is not a "DayZ" copy paste, it is a ArmA 3 modification that uses ported content from ArmA 2 combined with it's own content. To say that it is a "copy paste" of DayZ is insane, it just chose to use the popular zombie survival mod genre does not mean it stole everything from DayZ...

[golden bay]

I wish we would be given better tools against ban evasion. It feels like you either have to break the rules or be swarmed by cheaters which is truly sad.

Maybe let us fetch something that would be a hash of the user hwid and store it.. or let us update a « banlist » and let BI’s backend detect ban evasion..

[faint nacelle]

might you be a bit lost here posting such advertisement on this channel?

ah

2 years to go then

@remote lake you can come back when you are 13

discord has age limit

[spark condor]

This mod, published this morning, was stolen from myself and a group of my friends. We had a small group test its multiplayer functionality over the weekend to check for bugs, and one of the participants took it upon themselves to publish the file without our permission.

Considering we spent a considerable amount of our own money on this passion project, I'm quite upset.

Also, the model is stolen from a Ukrainian artist who I paid for licensing rights, and I'm certain the thief did not.

[faint nacelle]

you can file a DMCA on it since its your mod

[spark condor]

DMCA wants a Trademark number.

[faint nacelle]

🤔 should not need such

can leave blank. just provide evidence you made the mod originally

[spark condor]

It just keeps saying "failure to verify humanity."

I figured it out. Had to deactivate my VPN.

[crimson ingot]

oh the humanity

[teal garden]

it does have DayZ assets there

you can hear the zombie sounds that are exactly the same

[pure glade]

I suggest you read the ArmA DML-SA license released for the ArmA 2 DayZ mod then come back with all the facts @teal garden

[teal garden]

Arma 2 Only - You may not convert or adapt this material to be used in other games than Arma 2

[pure glade]

The license was not updated since the release of A3, all SL licenses from BI allow you to re-release content in their other games. At the end of the day if BI have a problem with it then they will deal with it, until then please stop trying to backseat lawyer.

[teal garden]

I don't trying to backseat a lawyer

[pure glade]

It is the job of the content creators to decide if they wish to push IP rights when violated, it is not up to someone not involved in the project to push for a lynch mob against a mod for using content under DML-SA.

[carmine folio]

Arma 2 Only - You may not convert or adapt this material to be used in other games than Arma 2

From DML-SA License

[pliant jolt]

Model maker can also file a DMCA as it's their model and it's presumably unlicensed

[pure glade]

@carmine folio read my above messages, it is likely BI just never changed it, if they really have a problem with it then they will do something about it, until then people can refrain from pushing for a mod to go down due to violating intellectual rights they are not even the holder of...

[teal garden]

Well to be honest there were a lot of DayZ copy paste mods patched with hot needle and all of them were taken down

And the Arma Life makers don't have exactly a clean slate

[carmine folio]

Just informing you.
I fully expect your BE to get turned off in the near future, good luck
Personnally i would completely replace all the DayZ Mod Assets you are using

Just going to jump in here for a second. If a Life community has their files "stolen" and they host them on their own, does the original community have rights to file a C&D?

[teal garden]

yes

[pure glade]

What are you even on about? I am not even involved in either mod I am just informing him that he is not thus should not be asking for a mod takedown @carmine folio

@carmine folio If the files "stolen" are actually their property then yes

[carmine folio]

But they cant claim the entirety is theirs right? Just the models or parts they created?

Because it is technically Tonic's life framework

[pure glade]

Not all life mods use Tonic's framework

a lot do granted

But not all

[carmine folio]

I guess I am referring to a situation that is happening right now, and they use his framework.

I've had to deal with 2 of these situations in the past month. Quite annoying.

[pure glade]

If they use his framework they can't claim IP on that part but they can claim IP on any custom scripts or mods they added in.

[carmine folio]

That is what I figured. Thanks for a little clarification

[pure glade]

No problem

[teal garden]

@carmine folio the rights owners can claim even a monetization takedown for someone who use their work because the person monetizing a server needs a permission for monetization from the rights owners to use their work for monetization

[carmine folio]

I know that part.

[echo orchid]

why does it contain rhs scripts?

[spark condor]

There shouldn't be any RHS scripts? The guy who configured it was specifically told (and he largely complained about) the fact that we would not let him make it be RHS based.

He may have added them afterwards to fix some of the broken functions we had, but that seems like more effort than this guy would do since he didn't even change the classname.

[untold night]

Edge wear giving me them war thunder vibes

[spark condor]

Actually, if you look at the WT Bradley, it doesn't have edge wear like that. The artist just seemed to want to give it more texture.

He does really great work.

[spark condor]

I dug through those files for you to check for differences from our test files. They have no functionality--no other file in the configs reference them. They're just plopped in there.

[novel goblet]

Well then perhaps get them removed from the file ASAP if you haven't already, unless you somehow got license from RHS. But their EULA at least seems no-derivation.

[spark condor]

Yeah, we are taking a look at our stuff now to ensure that everything is kosher with our file. Like I said, this file isn't even meant to be out yet. It's still in the working stages.

The rip has been removed. I'd like to thank everyone for their help. You'll see the asset again in a while once we:

1. Make sure it's fully functional

2. Make sure any issues with scripts or code are 100% original

[shrewd remnant]

Hey I just wanted to see if I could get a quick clarification so I don’t get caught in a violation

I understand somewhat how the APL-ND License works. Example, I could not take a person’s vehicle under APL-ND and modify the vehicle itself to be any different.

However how does this work for a dependency for a faction, if at all? Like if I wanted to include the guns from a certain mod already under a APL-ND into said faction mod? Would this work the same if I moved said items into a preexisting factions arsenal?

[coral torrent]

Not sure exactly what you are asking about, but if you mean addding APL-ND mod as dependency to your mod/server, then adding the weapon resource names to your arsenal config so they are available ingame, that is fine. Because you are not reuploading any of the actual mod files. Full explaination here: https://reforger.armaplatform.com/news/workshop-licenses-and-ip-faq

[shrewd remnant]

Thank you

[carmine folio]

Would a server thats not approved for monetization hosting private servers and events behind a paywall be considered a breach of TOS? Target Rich Environment ||discord.gg/HOMIEHQ|| is advertising donators get access to private events and servers.

There are also rumors that they charge money to get permissions as a GM, but they seem to have hidden their channels in discord so i couldn't verify these claims myself.

||https://ko-fi.com/targetrichenvironment/tiers||
They also run numerous mods with licenses that forbid monetization.

[faint nacelle]

Yes I believe that would be a breach. There is monetization related email you can report this kind of things to.

[carmine folio]

what is it?

[faint nacelle]

Unfortunately I'm on mobile and in a bit of a hurry so can't look it up.

[hollow needle]

Am I allowed to make the chest piece and helmet from tagilla(a character from Tarkov) if I model and texture everything myself?

[frigid heart]

the email you're looking for is
[e-mail]

[carmine folio]

email sent

[hallow glen]

If you're asking if you can make a Plate Carrier and a Welders Helmet, then yes.
I would be a bit worried about doing 1to1 textures, but if it just looks similar

[hollow needle]

That’s the part I’m more so asking about,

Like does it count if i make the textures cuz then they aren’t 1 to 1

[carmine folio]

i feel like thats more of a question for BSG, given its their IP

[trail hollow]

People already made a killa vest using a licensed model from someone, just don't copy the texture and you're fine. BSG hasn't trademarked a tan 6b13 with "killa" written on it

[faint nacelle]

out of courtesy one could write something else on it though.

[hallow glen]

"killer"

[hollow needle]

Kk thanks y’all!

[keen canopy]

rlly sorry man to see this

[queen lodge]

How do people work on plugin loaders without breaking the EULA? I want to update this loader to the latest game version: https://github.com/KeganHollern/Infinity . But the EULA has a clause stating "You are not allowed to hack, modify or reverse engineer the game or any game files". Without some reverse engineering I don't see a way to proceed.

[spark condor]

Worked itself out. No big issue. People steal sometimes. It happens.

[coral torrent]

Easy, they broke the eula. He knows, we know. But unless there is something against our interests we may tolerate things. We did the same for other community projects in the past that produced useful additions and no harm. But we may at any moment pull the plug on those things if they did not seek permission.

[twin crane]

I mean this seems pretty useful not gonna lie.

[echo orchid]

@spire - if you feel anyone has stepped over a lince, send a mail to infrigements at bohemia dot com

[jagged python]

it is

[hollow needle]

so they can break the rules as long as it benefits you guys?

[faint nacelle]

no this is not anykind of absolute rule

[flint geyser]

Selective enforcement

[midnight compass]

Every modder breaks the EULA in one way or another. Do you want us to ban everyone?

Only things that are an issue are enforced directly

But we cant give permission to do anything by removing things in eula as that makes enforcement useless

[hollow needle]

so selective enforcment like bacon said

[midnight compass]

Based on how it affevts community as a whole, yes. Or legal related then fully enforced.

[hollow needle]

i feel like thats just opening the doors to people to steal and rip, as long as its not affecting anyone in arma which isnt too good

[midnight compass]

No really

This is only for that kind of things

IP issues are not tolerated at all

If you read this channel. You would see how often people complain about authors being banned for infringing IP rights

Read the context of what arkensor replied. It has nothing to do with that.

Do not add extra context to things that are not there.

[hasty bay]

INDO CHANEL?

[faint nacelle]

no. english talk only in this discord #rules

[twin crane]

Edited: Answer was given on this sensitive topic

[faint nacelle]

no

[oblique mulch]

This has probably been asked before but I couldn't find the exact answer. Would it be a problem to remake a map from Arma 3 in Reforger and name it with a similar name, for example Stratis?

[faint nacelle]

if you copy anything from Arma3, ie building placements, names etc yes that can be a problem

if you create a map using same real world reference data and create your own placements then that is your own creation representing real world place

call it Sitarts maybe

[oblique mulch]

I'am using real earth data so i think it's okay but i have to find a name for this map Sitratis? maybe 😭

[crimson ingot]

Agios Efstratios irl, so change it to Efstratios

huh Efstratios > Stratis, well done Bohemian

[frigid heart]

Banned 🔨 😂

Agios Efstratios or Saint Eustratius (Greek: Άγιος Ευστράτιος), colloquially Ai Stratis
Stratis might be fine actually. don't quote me on that tho

[crimson ingot]

Stratios

evil stratis

[frigid heart]

Arma 3 mentioned on both Lemon and Stratis's wikipedia pages 😎

Lemnos

[native narwhal]

I think real world data is larger than the A3 version which was shrunk for playability purposes

[rustic copper]

not to mention the added airfield 😉

[twin crane]

Yesss

[plain drum]

If I pay people in my community one dollar for every person that they bring in is that a violation of IP rights

@faint nacelle

[midnight compass]

It's a violation of the EULAs

Same as with events with Prizes, not allowed.

There has only been one that has been allowed in the past for AR. You basically have to request permission

[plain drum]

Where would I go to do that

[plain drum]

@midnight compass

[midnight compass]

You won't get permission to what you were doing.

It is quite unfair way to gain players

[plain drum]

would it work if for every recruit these guys get $1 gets sent to a charity of their choice

[pearl junco]

I guess same idea, money as trade for new players, the money just goes in someone elses pocket

[tropic grotto]

I mean you can just call it Reforger Port
and you should be fine no ?

[faint nacelle]

no cant use the data.

port isnt really word with good standing. usually its used to cover the fact that the data being "ported" is not actually allowed to be used

[tropic grotto]

not like the actual Arma 3 assets
thats pretty much unusable unless you can remake the entire assets from scratch at that point that also becomes a seprate issue

[tropic grotto]

fair enough
btw goat while your at it can you check #general_chat_arma real quick I cant seem to get something to work :3

[burnt haven]

These people were banned for violating monetization policies, and are back up and running with a full server, and they’re still selling stuff.

[midnight compass]

We know, typical ban evasion. They will be banned again. No need to keep reporting. It's monitored.

[burnt haven]

awesome, thank you

[sour granite]

seems like FBIKOTHPACK mod has been banned from workshop, how to know the reason ?
i guess one of the model bought had license issues but want to be sure

[rustic copper]

you can contact the dev/uploader for the reason, as he/she knows the reason for the removal of the mod (either DMCA, IP infringement, simply removed by dev him/herself, etc.)

[sour granite]

ha they do receive some email or smth ? great thank you

[rustic copper]

If BI decides to remove a mod it will be let known

[midnight compass]

Owner is related to this server wide and workshop wide ban
#ip_rights_violations message

All related modders received their emails.

[sour granite]

wait so because this server used this mod the mod is banned ?

[midnight compass]

No. He was linked to their development team.

The ban here is similar to that of Liberty Interactive back then for example.

After failure to comply with mod licenses, EULA, to our emails. They are permanently banned.

It was server ban at first but there is ban evasion now. So it has become wide

[sour granite]

probably some misunderstanding since he worked on this for my koth and not theirs (they are using our mods and just contacted us a week ago)
gonna check on how to solve this with him i guess
thanks for answers

[midnight compass]

The user got banned

It was not this mod that got him banned

It was him being linked to making and publishing mods for the group

IF he got caught in the crossfire and was not part of the group, but just did a custom mod version of his for them or such. He can reply to the emails.

Or send me a DM.

[spice lintel]

Question, seen a server advertising dlc bypasses as a feature, was curious if such a thing is even allowed.

Game is Arma 3.

[faint nacelle]

what does DLC bypass mean?

[spice lintel]

Not 100% sure. It's just listed under the ad as a feature. I could speculate and assume it's disabling the overlay pop-up but that's assuming on my part. No idea what they're actually doing.

[faint nacelle]

does sound a little fishy

[spice lintel]

Is there someplace I can privately post that info so I don't get targeted by them in retaliation in case they get upset over the discovery?

[faint nacelle]

I think that emailing BI would be the solid option

[spice lintel]

By chance do you have the email handy?

Is it the one pinned in this chat?

[faint nacelle]

yea I think that one could be suitable

[marble coyote]

DLC bypass in this context is just a addaction with unit moveInDriver vehicle

[novel goblet]

Won't you still get the occasional "ad-banner" ? While in bad taste, I hardly think using a script command is "bypassing".

[marble coyote]

Everything else should be detected anyway, like a actual DLC bypass, had BI trolling players with that on my server back then xD
They got random lightning strikes, leaflets and holdActions added (which the anti cheat detected lol).

[wheat wave]

you still get watermarks if you use a dlc asset, even if you script yourself in
i dont think its bad taste as it allows everyone to play, you still get reminded to purchase the dlc

[main parrot]

Does anyone know if the game greyzone warfare makes their own assets? I just found a page on cgtrader with a bunch of stuff stolen from it

Or perhaps they allow their assets used by the public?

[hallow glen]

That is very offtopic.
If you found their assets online, report it to them

[main parrot]

I wouldn’t say VERY off topic, why are you so weird

[hallow glen]

You're talking about a game from a different developer, that is offtopic to this server.
The fact that both developers are from the same country is probably the biggest connection you can find. It's like going to a battlefield discord asking about assassin's creed. Or asking here about space engineers and factorio.

And I am so weird because I was born this way I guess.

So again, best if you ask on madfinger games/grayzone discord and not on this SUPER unrelated one.

[main parrot]

Calm down for me

[hallow lark]

Greyzone uses purchased assets like Dekagon quite a bit. If you found something you want to use, just dig into the artist selling it.

[burnt haven]

seems like this is common with brazillian servers

[silent walrus]

seems i'm only don't do this :/

[carmine folio]

I just checked the SAS server on both their Discord and in-game, and it appears they are monetizing using RHS and also your mods. I'm not sure if they have your permission for this, but it seems to be a clear violation of the EULA and Bohemia's monetization clauses.
Additionally, their servers are themed around the Russia vs Ukraine war, which is explicitly against RHS's usage policy. @midnight compass this should probably be looked into

[midnight compass]

I have no idea what the SAS server is. Could you elaborate?

[carmine folio]

It's a Brazilian server called SAS, aka South American Servers — the one shown in the second image presented by WCS. It seems they are violating the monetization clauses by selling in-game advantages, as I elaborated in my previous message.

[fleet gull]

It's not just a single rule violation — there are multiple, both regarding monetization and the RHS rules.

[BRASIL/LATAM] SAS #1 – Ucrânia vs Rússia | 120 FPS | PS5 • PC • Xbox

They monetize by creating modified patches based on the RHS patches mod.

And it's not just the SAS server that monetizes — the Modern Conflict Brasil server also monetizes in the same way.

[twin crane]

@native narwhal just bumping this for you. So you’re made aware.

[burnt haven]

This is a conversation I had with one of the "reps" of this server

[native narwhal]

@echo orchid

[silent walrus]

Please, just don't generalize the actions of a few to the entire Brazilian community.

[silent walrus]

and if anyone have questions I will be glad, explain do and dont, but in the end will be only my suggestions, its up to them to take in my suggestions

[burnt haven]

Owner of the SAS server says he wasnt aware he was in violation, and has agreed to take down what has been previously posted, and they use their own patch mod by the name of SAS_Patchesa. They do plan to apply for monetization and do it correctly

[carmine folio]

Hello, thank you for coming to explain 556

I'm one of the owners of SAS, and we definitely don't want to violate bohemia rules

[fleet gull]

This is not the only violation committed by the SAS server according to Bohemia's rules and even the rules and licenses of RHS. What’s right is right — there have been clear rule violations, including an in-game marketplace, as well as breaches of the RHS mod's rules.

No depiction of ongoing wars
We, the development team of RHS, unanimously do NOT condone any real-life wars, past, present, or future.

Any depiction of the ongoing invasion of Russian forces in Ukraine using any derivative content based of RHS assets is strictly PROHIBITED.

This includes but is not limited to, any use of Russian war markings (Z, O, V, etc) and/or Ukrainian war markings on any existing or future RHS assets.

Any depiction of the ongoing conflict between Israeli forces and Palestine using any derivative content based of RHS assets is strictly PROHIBITED. There will be no exceptions.
Just a warning, because here in Brazil this server claims to be your partner, and this could cause problems for you, just like it did for other servers here that were even banned by Bohemia

[thick wigeon]

the editing is really well done, beautiful montage

[onyx blaze]

@fleet gull para de utilizar conta falsa, e usa a sua de verdade

[fleet gull]

SAS - Souza
Good evening, princess
We don't have VIP

We have the following donation plans available:

🔹 Donor Tier 1 — R$30
Immediate access to the Donor Box (uniforms, vests, backpacks, and 100% cosmetic patches)

🔹 Donor Tier 2 — R$80
Everything from Tier 1 + 1 exclusive digital patch

🔹 Donor Tier 3 — R$150
Everything from Tier 1 + 1 exclusive digital patch

🛠️ Create a clan — +R$50 (one-time fee)
• Role & private channel “Clan <NAME>”
• 1 Founder Patch for the clan (added to Patch Box)
Must be at least a Tier 1 Donor

Payment methods:
💳 MercadoPago: https://link.mercadopago.com.br/sasbr
🔑 Pix (email): [e-mail]

[sturdy violet]

I’m one of the developers and founders of SAS, and these accusations are completely baseless. We don’t sell patches or any VIP items on our servers. Anyone is welcome to join and check for themselves.

The only thing we restrict is the clan patch, which is meant to encourage healthy rivalries between groups. It’s not monetized. We even keep a kill log between clans.

These accusations are coming from fake accounts linked to a Brazilian server that got banned recently for breaking Bohemia’s rules and those of mod creators.

All our patches are created in-house by our own modeling team.

Whoever’s making these claims should speak up using their real account instead of hiding behind fakes to make stuff up and try to harm the image of the Brazilian community with international players and Bohemia.

Just to be clear, we even offered help to that server when they got banned. We looked for ways to help them comply with Bohemia’s policies, but they chose to stick with the same business model and got banned again.

I’m open to answer any questions if needed.

https://www.artstation.com/stoker

[fleet gull]

The evidence is there now it's up to Bohemia and RHS to evaluate it and take the appropriate measures.

[sturdy violet]

These are members of the server that was banned by Bohemia, trying to harm our image and that of Brazilian servers. They don’t even have the courage or ability to use a real account to make baseless accusations with no evidence whatsoever.

@sinful badger @night pumice

[carmine folio]

@native narwhal To you and any representative of Bohemia, I declare our complete help for possible investigations and explanations.

[drifting lark]

Good evening. Please remove my name from this list. I haven't been part of the server since the first crash. My relationship with them is that I rent the PC to them.

They have a colocation contract with me, don't involve me in this.

[carmine folio]

To those involved in these complaints, I declare that you will fail to try to denigrate the Brazilian community, and as I had already warned in the extrajudicial statement, we see you in court.

Para os envolvidos nessas denúncias declaro que vocês irão falhar em tentar denegrir a comunidade brasileira, e como eu já tinha alertado no comunicado extra judicial, nós vemos no tribunal.

[fleet gull]

Please explain this to RHS, [BRASIL/LATAM] SAS #1 – Ucrânia vs Rússia | 120 FPS | PS5 • PC • Xbox

[drifting lark]

I don't want to know about your fight

[carmine folio]

No problem

[drifting lark]

I have a formal contract between my company and them for VPS rental, if you do not unmark me from these messages, appropriate measures will be taken.

[fleet gull]

Or explain this practice, After payment, send the receipt here in the ticket so we can immediately unlock your benefits!

We have only 1 spot left for the queue skip, and the updated price is R$ 80 per month.

Payment link
Enter the amount of your purchase
Set an amount and pay South America Server via Mercado Pago

[carmine folio]

!

[native narwhal]

You can't run RHS on any server that uses any form of monetization period. You can take voluntary donations, with no exchange of service or product in return. Even if your server is approved for monetization by Bohemia, you have to do it without RHS.

[fleet gull]

Besides the monetization practice, they also use the Ukraine vs. Russia theme, which breaks one of RHS's rules, and they even use the letter Z on their vehicles, as has already been proven in the screenshots above.

[carmine folio]

Thanks for the clearest explanation, we currently do not monetize our server, what we do is simple, we receive donations, in these donations we open a clan on our discord, a system only on our discord, to make them official in events that we promote on discord.
The patches we provide for him, we only provide the patches, these patches they identify within the game which clan the player belongs to.
These patches, you can find in SAS_Patches

These patches have no co-relation with RHS

[meager sleet]

Why am I seeing so many posts breaking the rules with non English?

[sturdy violet]

I want to make it very clear to everyone reading this topic that these accusations are completely unfounded, coming from fake accounts linked to a server that was banned. We do not engage in that kind of practice. I won’t waste time arguing with people who don’t even have the courage to use a real Discord account to make a report.

Everyone is free to join our server, test it for themselves, and see the truth. Our project is supported solely by voluntary donations — nothing more.

Do we plan to monetize? Yes, we do. We’re currently developing a favela-themed server (based on real communities in Rio de Janeiro), which we plan to submit to Bohemia for official monetization approval. Until then, we only accept voluntary donations and offer a symbolic role on Discord.

I apologize to the international community, but I also ask: please don’t punish or judge the entire Brazilian community because of a few individuals who were selling weapons, using other people’s mods for personal gain, and were rightfully banned by Bohemia.

Here are a few images of our upcoming project, which will be submitted for monetization approval by Bohemia. Everything is being built with custom mods developed by our team, with no reliance on external content:

https://imgur.com/a/pPlqjRB

[fleet gull]

I hope that both RHS and Bohemia conduct a thorough investigation — the evidence has already been presented, and justice must be served, as the ones most harmed in this situation are us, the players.

[native narwhal]

its still giving something to people for money in return = monetization, and even though the patches might not have anything to do with RHS, the server that this happens on is still running RHS.

[sturdy violet]

@native narwhal We don't monetize patches

[native narwhal]

oh and yes, I do believe you are being targeted by a group that got banned themselves for the same thing

[native narwhal]

@carmine folio just said you do give pathes for donations

[sturdy violet]

@native narwhal We know that to monetize a server, you can't use any mod whose creator doesn’t allow it to be commercialized.

[carmine folio]

We have no VIP and no undue advantage, we always make it clear that there is no VIP on our servers.
I emphasize that what is happening here is a grotesque attempt to harm our server, The server in question that was banned, was banned for selling all possible weapon mods in the Workshop, breaking multiple rules and making their server pay to win, and repeating this several times even with serious warnings from developers

Again I emphasize that there is no monetization on our server

[native narwhal]

is this not monetization? I mean this is very clearly donation with something in return

[fleet gull]

As I said, it wasn’t just one rule that was broken—several rules were violated, both from Bohemia and RHS, including improper monetization. As I said, it wasn’t just one rule that was broken—several rules were violated, both from Bohemia and RHS, including improper monetization.

[carmine folio]

This is a print taken out of context, made to harm us.

[native narwhal]

this is fake then? I mean people will check and if its true it will come out

[carmine folio]

She is not fake but she is not real either, this print was a leaked prototype in case we were accepted in the monetization of bohemia

[sturdy violet]

We understand that under no circumstances is it allowed to monetize the server without having all the mods created by you. Unfortunately, there seems to be some misinformation being spread by ill-intentioned individuals. You're more than welcome to join our server and see for yourself.

[carmine folio]

If you investigate, you will see that this screenshot was taken by a moderator of ours who has no final decision on our projects.
Considering that we follow a hierarchy where Founders make the final decision.

Again I emphasize that these complaints are an attempt to harm us before the Bohemia company and the rhs studio

As proof of what I'm talking about, here's our other prototype website, where you can find this.
https://sas-web.vercel.app/

I believe I can't send links on this channel, but if I need to, I'll send it privately.

[sturdy violet]

@native narwhal As soon as Bohemia made the announcement about monetization, we started working to understand how it all worked. We created a website to submit an official application, but it was denied. Later, we obtained permission for some mods and applied again and once again, we were denied. That’s when we realized the server must be running exclusively with mods created by ourselves. So, we decided to start developing our own mod. Currently, our server only receives voluntary donations.

You can check it out here: https://sas-web.vercel.app/

Do we plan to have a monetized server in the future? Yes! We already have a project in development, based on the theme of the favelas in Rio de Janeiro. Until that project is ready, we will continue operating solely through voluntary donations.

[fleet gull]

If you're saying the evidence was fabricated, then explain this — this doesn't look like a test as you claimed.

[carmine folio]

I only see the print of a donation...

[fleet gull]

This receipt was sent yesterday by someone who is also outraged by the situation

[carmine folio]

You should stop, these attempts to harm us will all be used against you. Mr.F

Outraged by a donation? Wow....

[fleet gull]

And reports have already been sent to Bohemia, as shown in the document, containing all the attached evidence and screenshots.

[carmine folio]

You are clearly lying. In fact, I have proof that there are no spontaneous donations. If necessary, @native narwhal , I can provide screenshots from Discord and in-game footage that clearly prove the existence of monetization advantages. Furthermore, if you conduct a deeper investigation and speak with players, you will uncover the monetization yourself.

As I mentioned before, their servers use real war scenarios, such as Ukraine vs. Russia, which clearly violates the EULA terms. Their servers are currently running under this model—you can verify it yourself.

Hello everyone, how are you? I see that you’ve already managed to report this server before — the one that’s been taking money from players and using RHS, SpearHead, Bacon, and WCS.
@burnt haven @flint geyser @mild knoll @midnight compass @native narwhal
They even use the theme of an ongoing war @native narwhal

@glossy depot That includes you.

In case you need it, this is the Discord of those scumbags: https://discord.com/invite/SASBR

[carmine folio]

Exactly. Some friends made donation transfers, but in return they received clothes and weapons, many of which included textures and modded objects that weren't even theirs. Not to mention that they also sell something to get queue priority, which is even more expensive. This payment receipt shows everything. Thank you.

[echo orchid]

enough. If you have proof of commercialization / monetization of any sorts (including RHS mods) please send that proof my way via DM

[sturdy violet]

These individuals are creating fake accounts to try to discredit the Brazilian server called SAS.

Once again, we emphasize that there is no monetization within the SAS server — only voluntary donations made by the community itself.

These people use fake profiles and make fake donations solely to attack the community, simply because SAS is growing larger than they are.

In any case, SAS has always been open to clarifying doubts and answering questions from EVERYONE.

Everyone is welcome to join the SAS server and, if they wish, review the code themselves to verify the so-called 'VIP items' they claim exist.

If your friend was unhappy about not receiving anything in return for a donation, then they should not have made it. The SAS server is by the community, for the community.

[carmine folio]

They just deleted several channels from their Discord, but there’s still some evidence here. I’ll send it to you.

[sturdy violet]

https://imgur.com/a/oLKXiLh

[carmine folio]

Well, you think you're clever, but all the evidence has been presented here. I know you'll try to deflect and come up with all sorts of excuses, but everything has been exposed here with facts and proof.
Now we just have to let the modders and Bohemia take action. I hope this time they learn their lesson. They just restarted the server without the mod for a box that only donors could open. It seems like they’re trying to hide something.

[sturdy violet]

I understand your frustration in trying to defame our server after being banned by Bohemia. I want to make it clear to everyone that Bohemia itself has confirmed that SAS does not engage in any of the actions being alleged.

We are sustained exclusively through voluntary donations made by our users.

As soon as Bohemia announced its monetization policy, we applied immediately but were denied twice. Only then did we understand that in order to be approved, we needed to have all mods created entirely by ourselves. Here is the proof of our application model: https://sas-web.vercel.app/

Unfortunately, we were rejected. However, we now fully understand how to monetize a server the right way. That’s why we are developing our own mods and creating a unique theme based on the favelas of Rio de Janeiro.

I want to make it very clear that these accusations are coming from malicious individuals using fake accounts. If you check the creation dates of these accounts, you’ll see they are all fake. Their only goal is to tarnish our reputation and that of the Brazilian community.

They are the ones in the wrong. The group Predadores BRASIL turned their Arma Reforger server into something resembling FiveM, with abusive admins, VIP weapons, and various items in VIP boxes. They even made a video explaining how to purchase VIP access on their server and paid to promote it. Now they’re trying to defame us by falsely claiming we do the same.

We ourselves were once players on that server, and my team and I were held hostage for a long time by the unacceptable practices they enforced. At the time, it was the only Brazilian server available, until a group of players, tired of that situation, decided to create their own server: SAS.

We at SAS do not tolerate that kind of behavior. We have full capability to create our own mods and monetize them in full compliance with Bohemia’s rules, without stepping on anyone and without violating any licenses. That is why we are building an entirely new server from scratch, with a Brazilian theme, made with responsibility, originality, and full respect for the official guidelines.

[sturdy violet]

@fleet gull as @sinful badger It is one of the owners of Predadores Brasil who is trying to defame our server, using fake accounts. He’s not even man enough to use his real account to make a false report to the Arma community. He turned his own server into a money-making machine, exploiting players and handing out VIP weapons.

And here we are, on a Sunday, spending our time addressing fake accusations made by a grown man — over 35 years old, with two children — who doesn't even have the courage to show his face when making false claims. All of this while disrupting our most productive day, when our entire team is available to work on developing and modeling our project. We are wasting valuable time on this nonsense.

Grow up.

We will be taking further action. We have recorded your IP addresses and the fake accounts created in our Discord.

[cloud pebble]

Hello friend, @idle knoll why do your mp maps, whenever I try to upload them in conflict mode, always fall into GM everon mode?

[faint nacelle]

Wrong channel.

Also lot of rule violations in the past chat. Do keep within #rules. And any group with an issue, appoint single person to talk for your group and keep rest of your people away from cluttering the chat.

[soft egret]

Because people are too lazy to read the rules, and at 1AM the moderators were sleeping
Why am I seeing your offtopic in this channel? Keep your clutter out of here too.
If you wanted to report something to moderators, then use #discord_tickets or ping moderators in the chat. Posts like yours contribute nothing useful.

[soft egret]

Its really not suspicious at all when 3 brand-newly created discord accounts, join this server and immediately jump into this channel to report the same server.
And not only report them, which they would do to the E-Mail in the channel description, but publicly accuse them and try to cause drama.

[soft egret]

If its already been reported to the appropriate places, why are you here then? Let the appropriate procedure run its course.

Tbh when someone makes obvious alt accounts and tries to publicly cause drama, I tend to think they are lying and trying to use all the attention they cause to obscure that fact.

[soft egret]

Möp, wrong procuredure

!ban 1393682430283616256 0 brand-new account, raid, name-calling and insults

[edgy coral]

*PewPewPew!!*
RIP @dawn eagle

[soft egret]

These individuals are creating fake accounts
yeah that much is plainly obvious. If they wanted to honestly report something, they'd not use brand new alt-accounts, and they'd go to the proper place instead of causing unnecessary drama after saying they already went to the proper place

The worst thing about this unnecessary drama. Is that now, the accused knows they are being accused.
If they really did what they were alledging, they now have plenty of time to clean up and get rid of all of the evidence of their wrongdoing.
And by the time the real proper report actually gets investigated, all the proof is gone and nothing can be done anymore.

That's really not a smart move.
The smartest move would've been to report it properly, and stay quiet about it. So that when the report is investigated, the bad guys didn't bother cleaning up all the evidence, and it can be verified and proper actions can be taken.

[meager sleet]

Yeah I meant to ping mods in that post. I keep forgetting y'all are sleeping when it's mid day over here. It may have actually helped though as the non English posts stopped after I posted that. So I wouldn't say it didn't contribute anything useful, but I'll butt out and mind my own business in the future. 👍

[faint nacelle]

best to use the #discord_tickets, that reaches all the moderators

[faint nacelle]

make report through the official channels with proof thank you.

that way it is easier to act on it

[sinful badger]

@native narwhal Hello, how are you? I'd like to ask you to accept my friend request on Discord so I can send you some files.

Files of your interest and of RHS.

[echo orchid]

if it is IP related send these my way.

[sinful badger]

@echo orchid Pufu, I sent you a friend request on Discord. I need you to accept it so I can send you the files.

[pure oyster]

Am I allowed to Obfuscate mods that I put on the Reforger Workshop? For Example Blocking Workbench Functions if I open my Mod in said Workbench, or making things fully unreadable? I asked this before, and to my knowledge it wasnt really defined at that point.

[hallow glen]

obfuscation is not allowed as it makes it harder to check if the mod doesn't do something that it shouldn't

[pure oyster]

can I get that from a official source? Since there are mods out there that do exactly that.

[hallow glen]

from: marioe obfuscation
put that in the search bar, not that hard

[pure oyster]

oh I might have overseen that sry^^

[stable orbit]

It's okay to do it if you are team ELAN

[hollow needle]

Report those mods

[pure oyster]

Already did ^^

[paper prawn]

Nothing will be done yet for obfuscated mods. Mario has suggested that they will be forbidden soon™ though, but no need to prematurely report them at this point. Just more spam for the people who deal with these issues since they are not forbidden yet

[pure oyster]

I dont get how its not forbidden though, because how would you know what they do with their mods or if it includes stolen content, if everything is obfuscated to unreadability and you have 5000 Folders with 200 Subfolders.... How is that ok.

[paper prawn]

Because it's a grey area, where many obfuscate to hide IP theft but some obfuscate to prevent their IP being stolen. When BI set the rules though to be different than now, it will be easier for people to steal other's IP but I guess easier to see that those thieves have stolen it...

[pure oyster]

I also have seen people break Workbench with their Obfuscation, the stuff I looked at Crashed the Workbench fully.

[paper prawn]

Yes, Mario mentioned that

[pure oyster]

I mean I dont see a need for Obfuscation, if you have nothing to hide. I mean RHS doesnt do that and most of the big mods dont. I just dont really get it. If someone steals stuff just report it. Imo people who Obfuscate now are just trying to hide stuff, and dont care about the Values Reforger wants or wanted to set.

[paper prawn]

If someone steals stuff just report it You must be new here 🤣

[pure oyster]

No. I mean what can you do. Its not like obfuscation will ever protect you 🤣

[paper prawn]

I know what you mean, I have never obfuscated anything myself, but I have seen entire ARMA 3 mission files being stolen from me (can't do anything about that, they are cached) with new servers running them, presumably not realizing that they are broken af because they don't have my server side addons...

[pure oyster]

I mean when Reforger launched the Idea was to share Knowledge arcoss the board and learn how other modders did things not steal but learn. Obfuscation ruins that.

[paper prawn]

Heh, too many stealers around, as already demonstrated. But obfuscation will be gone from Reforger specifically soon

[pure oyster]

I do get it but we all gotta play by the rules. Iam also not happy when others can steal my Models but thats how it is...

[faint nacelle]

if a obfuscated mod falls into my table for examination I'll be asking the maker for the human readable source.

[pure oyster]

I mean I can provide you a mod with proof😅

[faint nacelle]

is there something forbidden hidden in there?

I dont need to look if the mod has no forbidden content

[pure oyster]

gotta check more but I found copyright infringing stuff in there. Not from me but im general.

[faint nacelle]

you can report it in the workshop report tool, the more details you can put in the report the more reason I have to look

[pure oyster]

Will make a google docs with everything.

[stable orbit]

Time to roll up the old sleeves and get my evidence hands dirty

Also when did you become green 🤔

[faint nacelle]

Monday.

[stable orbit]

Congratulations sir

[vague horizon]

anyone known who is https://reforger.armaplatform.com/workshop/65D73D196549F333-ZEROMapVoting ?

[faint nacelle]

is this IP rights related?

otherwise #reforger_questions would be the place

[vague horizon]

yes
he made a full clone overriding license without mentioning original author and "integrating" dependencies

[faint nacelle]

you can use the workshop ticket system to report it and describe the violation. the more details you provide there the more I have to work with

[vague horizon]

Done, (not sure if you receive it, because on next game load it remove "mod blocked" marker which was added when item is reported)

[faint nacelle]

yes I can see the reports 👍 I have stuff on my table already but I'll get to those as soon as possible. I'll contact you if I need any extra information.

[burnt swallow]

not sure if this right channel to ask, but out of curiosity what BI policy on porting there stuff like static objects from Cold War Assault?

[faint nacelle]

taking anything from the game files is forbidden. only things you can use are the public released datapacks according to their respective licences

Not quite sure what you would even use from there 😅

(porting in the way you say is not very nice term since it basically equals ripping/stealing)

as in taking files from a game and putting them into other game

[burnt swallow]

it just a thought pop into my head, didn't the release some of source files from it a few years ago or i am getting mix up with arma 2?

[faint nacelle]

the mentioned public datapacks are what is available

they got a wiki page

Off the top of my head I dont rememeber whats in there

buuut OFP/CWA assets are preeetty old

and would not really translate into reforger very well

[faint nacelle]

PSA: Lot of IP infringing music containing mods got banned today. This is likely to affect gameplay over the weekend for some of you. The authors of said mods can contact me to rectify the issues.

Anyone who has such content in their mods and didnt get removed I would suggest removing music you dont have explicit rights to.

[icy sable]

Question about that because i was gonna have a friend mod music in for me. What if its music made by me and music under a record label I work for? (My boss isnt strict and approves use of music from the label)

[faint nacelle]

written permission is easiest to prove it with

[icy sable]

Way too easy. Thank you 🙏🏽.

[faint nacelle]

also good idea to mention that in the mods description/license document

[faint nacelle]

I might have to verify the permission since this kind of things dont usually happen. Labels normally are quite strict on their ownership to my knowledge.

[drowsy pier]

Can an Admin please DM. ASAP.

[frigid heart]

Yet we have no idea what you need(so we don't know who needs to DM you either)
If it is information you don't want to share publicly you can create a #discord_tickets

[faint nacelle]

its being handled

👍

[drowsy pier]

It’s being handled,

thanks crumble.

[flint geyser]

Haha I found someone had "open sourced" my no derivatives mod on github

[faint nacelle]

😑

[flint geyser]

Of course also uploaded to the workshop just like all the others that copy pasted all my parachute scripts

[faint nacelle]

hit report, gib details

[flint geyser]

Maybe email is better? I never, ever, heard anything back after using the ingame report button

Email can contain evidence also I suppose

[faint nacelle]

report reaches me faster at the moment 😅

[jaunty steeple]

how kind of them, saved you the effort
-# sarcasm is obvious

[pure oyster]

Am I able to Dm you regarding infringing things I found in a mod that involves BI directly?

[faint nacelle]

sure

[worn nimbus]

What if we get a proper internet broadcasting license for a radio mod?

[midnight compass]

There is no way to broadcast audio to AR so it wont work. Only way to have them play is for you to distribute them in the pak files or file download. Which these licenses do not allow for.

[noble harbor]

If I use royalty free/Copyright free music and credit the author in the way he askes. is that allowed?

[midnight compass]

Yeah, the issue is when you really had no rights to distribute it/ use it

[golden bay]

Hey, been a while since i asked this question but i'd like an answer on that or know if something is planned that we can use to find ban evaders. It would save a lot of servers a lot of itme

[icy sable]

Sorry for the late reply, sounds good. Definitely. Most labels are kind of iffy on that. Over here at ninetofive, a lot things get approved for use of music (streams, mixes on youtube, and etc). I’m getting a written permission from the owner rn. @faint nacelle

[noble harbor]

does duping a Server name/clan name come under IP rules??

Because our server name is being used by a random locked server

[coral torrent]

No

[scenic sonnet]

Legally this would be trademark territory as far as I'm aware, not regular intellectual property.
If the server just happens to have the same name, I don't think there's anything you can do except ask them.
If they're doing it maliciously, maybe you could complain to BI but I don't know how that would go.

[coral torrent]

Yep if you had a trademark on it. But no server i know has one. They cost too much money to obtain worldwide.

[wicked spoke]

Common law trademark is a thing, especially in the US. Also could lead to federal claims for misrepresentation.

[rustic copper]

Except that it only applies for "commerce" and "commercial goods".

Besides that; US law is not international law (or even the same in different states). So unless you actually have an international trademark there usually not a lot you can do about it

[coral torrent]

US law does not apply to us, if some local laws helps you in it and the other party is also a US local then you can do your actions over there, but we are not getting involved.

[wicked spoke]

That was understand.

[wicked spoke]

US Federal law is applicable in all states, and that's not entirely just to goods. Groups are providing services. Under that logic, non-profits who provide free services would not be able to exercise such rights.

[faint nacelle]

we suggest seeking legal help from professionals on that field.

while using same server name can be called a "dick move" it does not fall into the IP violations this channel is for.

[paper prawn]

Is requiring payment in order to be able to appeal a server ban allowed on monetized DayZ servers? Know a server where that has been the case...

In this particular case the owner says that they got permission from BI to charge for that and the server is still on the approved monetized server list...?

[soft egret]

Paywalling server is allowed.
Paying for unban is basically just getting onto a paywalled server, though not paywalled for everyone 🤷

[paper prawn]

Well, I cannot see how that could possibly be abused 🤣

[twin crane]

Pay $5 to reload, how it feels driving a BMW.

[paper prawn]

The server itself is paywalled for white listing too in this case. So it's explicitely just a fee to be able to appeal a ban, thus my thoughts on how it could be abused easily...

[jovial crown]

5$ to increase FPS lol

[faint nacelle]

10$ monthly to keep that fps

[hollow needle]

25$ to move up in queue one place

[twin crane]

Referring to this is their an official list that can be referred to when mentioning this?

[hearty vault]

There’s a way

Client has radio with 40km range, client listens to audio stream then routes the audio to virtual mic, broadcasting into in game communication radio

[faint nacelle]

no. Everyone should already know if they have license/permission to use music (any any other content) they have in their mod

all the banned mods contained basically pirate downloaded/video captured songs.

some tried to hide it more.

[twin crane]

No no I mean like a list of banned mods.

[faint nacelle]

no we dont have public list. People get email notification

few already contacted me and squared away the problem.

[umbral marlin]

warthunder t-90 tut tut tut

[faint nacelle]

?

[hollow needle]

Lmao what

[wicked spoke]

Does BI care to have reports when people are offering money even after being told its not allowed by BI (or us)? We have had guy offering us $10,000 for the IP rights to the Insurgency game mode 🤣 .

I'm sure its more of a scam, or maybe even a setup.

[umbral marlin]

???

[umbral marlin]

thats clearly the same t90 as the last one that was posted by bigturd

[hallow lark]

What T-90?

[umbral marlin]

on his banner

[faint nacelle]

If you have something to report, then report it, instead of try to fire up some drama on this channel.

[umbral marlin]

i report @twin crane and thespacestrider it is warthunder tank t-90

i will sent to gaijin warthunder hq if no do nothing

[faint nacelle]

You can report that to Gaijin yes. Gaijin is the one who can request their content taken down

[umbral marlin]

yes i wil do this

[twin crane]

you can’t take down a photo

[hollow needle]

pop off I guess, the model is obviously not a warthunder rip due to a couple factors, such as A, not having an interior(sure it could be removed by the seller to make it look like his) and B, the model had details that warthunder does not have, such as 1, it had a track model with each individual track modeled, whereas war thunder has a solid mesh to go around, and 2, tiny details such as handles on the inside of the hatches( which war thunder does not have) would point at it not being a rip

[twin crane]

Hey gecko ain’t worth explaining in this channel plus this isn’t the place.

[soft egret]

The listed factors all mean nothing. Once can edit a ripped model.

[umbral marlin]

edited

[umbral marlin]

doilum

[hollow needle]

I mean sure then you can classify any model as a ripped war thunder model

[soft egret]

That's nonsense

[hollow needle]

I mean if I list something that differs from a ripped model and you just say it was edited then who’s to say any other t9O model isn’t?

Anyways this isn’t my convo so I’ll drop it

[umbral marlin]

so is it a wt model?

[twin crane]

Not continuing the conversation further. You can feel free to reach out to gaijin if you feel there’s an issue or use the report system like @faint nacelle mentioned. Thanks.

[umbral marlin]

war thunder model right will do 👍

[old trench]

Bros doing tricks on the snail 💀

[faint nacelle]

IP theft is not a joke.

[crimson ingot]

"-Millions of families suffer every year!"

[stable orbit]

But my joke was funny

[crimson ingot]

"Millions of families suffer every year" is funny to you?!?

[stable orbit]

Totes gonna get told this is off topic, but I said my joke, not your joke

[crimson ingot]

[faint nacelle]

!mute @crimson ingot @stable orbit 1d too much joking at wrong channel.

[edgy coral]

Silence!! ò_ó
...
I keel u, @stable orbit and @crimson ingot!! Ò_Ó
hazer_al#0000 now has 3 infractions.

[leaden cipher]

Quick reminder: #ip_rights_violations message

[umbral marlin]

nothing is wrong with that

[leaden cipher]

!mute 1084411182863110194 1d off-topic in #ip_rights_violations

[edgy coral]

Silence!! ò_ó
...
I keel u, @umbral marlin!! Ò_Ó
resrvs_#0000 now has 2 infractions.

[hollow needle]

Having to pay to access a channel on a discord server to see enfusion teasers is against tos still after the monetization update right?

[prime stratus]

I believe so yes

[old trench]

Yes

Unless the community has been approved for monetization

[prime stratus]

Unless I’m interpreting #ip_rights_violations message wrong then no it’s not allowed even if the community is approved for monetisation
If it is it’s not included on the list as far as I’m aware

I might be wrong tho so I’ll let someone who understands this better than me give their 2 cents

[old trench]

Actually I think you’re right

You can monetize items in your server (given they do not provide an advantage) but cannot monetize pictures of items in your server

[prime stratus]

Only thing I’m curious of is the product placement stuff
To me that sounds like you can have a branded bottle of Coca Cola or something in the servers

Which by double checking is absolutely the case

[old trench]

How do you mean?

[prime stratus]

I mean you can have branded stuff in the server

So take the Vietnam servers for example, should you get monetisation permission and the correct permissions and stuff, you can have branded things within the game
For example Coca Cola, Pizza Hut, stuff like that if I’m understanding this right

[old trench]

Eh, I’m ngl I don’t don’t actually know if that’s true but based off my experience I’m gonna go with that’s not allowed, as you’d have to have license from the IP holder, that’s why most video games use parody or fictionalize imagery like that

[faint nacelle]

Use of such IPs would require permission.

[faint nacelle]

This exactly. That's why there's Pipsi

[unreal dune]

@ HorribleGoat bringing this to your attention as you're the new Workshop Curator. https://reforger.armaplatform.com/workshop/65E2D4F4E4560787-THEROADOFLIFEBAKHMUT
this mod is a reskin of the already banned EEC Bakhmut.

[hollow needle]

You didn’t @ him

[unreal dune]

wasnt my plan to. I dont know the rules of this discord so im not gonna go tagging people lol

[hollow needle]

Then why type it out like you @‘ed him

[unreal dune]

so he knows its for him, my man. is there an issue with me doing it that way?

[faint nacelle]

no problem is alright to be careful, for this kind of business I can be @hot driftd on this channel (as long as its not constant)

[unreal dune]

Appreciate you for letting me know, thank you!

[faint nacelle]

you can DM me any details you know

[soft egret]

Poor TTE, what has he done 😄

[faint nacelle]

oh it did add the @ mention even when it didnt show it while typing. thanks discord.

Sorry TTE

[finite zinc]

you can always do a silent ping, it will highlight the message for the recipient but won't give them a notification number etc.

you do this by starting the message with @silent

test silent message @faint nacelle

[faint nacelle]

should have wrapped the at with `` or just type it out like (at)

[wind fractal]

Just the author was banned, not the map.

[faint nacelle]

no all the work by the author was banned. map included. (not the theme of the map) the map data can not be used or reuploaded

[wind fractal]

Tracking, I was running on old/wrong information then.

[thorny moon]

Hey, which mail is adequate for reporting Reforger Workshop content violating my IP? I see two in circulation, [e-mail] and [e-mail], or are they effectively the same?

[faint nacelle]

infringement probably better. You can also DM me the details

[midnight compass]

I thought @faint nacelle did it on purpose lol

[midnight compass]

In general, user banned means all mods under said user are also banned.

and banned mods can't be reuploaded, even partially.

It's like that so to avoid ban evasions and the like. also future work from the user is also banned when discovered.

So new accounts != unbanned.

if the person starts working under a group, then the group is subject to ban as well.

[wind fractal]

Makes sense when laid out like that

[slender jay]

Need to ask a question, What IPs are a No go?

[faint nacelle]

any you dont have permission for

[slender jay]

So just go look at the ToS's, Copy Right Statements and so on?

[rustic copper]

The moment you see an (c), (r) or (tm), it's an immediate no-go.
But basically, anything you didn't make yourself requires permission; which could through be a license, or explicit permission from the person who did make it (or person/company who owns the rights)

[paper prawn]

Simpler thank that. Unless something gives you permission or has a license that does then you do not have permission. If something has no license then you do not have permission

[faint nacelle]

nearly everything is like that to be honest.

so looking at TOS etcs is not really going to be useful use of time

your best bet is try to reach someone on the IP owner side who can give you permission

Sometimes you might get lucky.

However you need to actually reach someone who actually can give that

and explain in detail and explicitly what you seek the permission for

[midnight compass]

ALSO, important as it happens a lot people miss these.
Some studios allow to mod assets from their game into THEIR other games only. Not to other studios games.

So be very careful with reading such documents, do not skip things. Read the whole things. These things are almost never on even close-by paragraphs

[midnight compass]

Regarding this @slender jay community managers and customer supports are not that 😉

You need to somehow reach the publishing team, or the legal team

[faint nacelle]

usually if some IP can be easily used its commonly known. Like how HALO IP still enjoyes the relatively open fan work policy

[midnight compass]

also on this. Fan work does not mean ripping the models of their games and such 😅

It usually means that they allow you to create your own inspired models, based on their designs, lore, etc

They almost always say that ripping is not allowed, for example the case with Halo with the microsoft license that HorribleGoat referenced

Which funnily enough, if I recall properly. It is also not written nearby each other

So, always read the whole document, and linked documents.

[faint nacelle]

Also there may be restrictions like not using specific named characters or places that they have already made

[midnight compass]

better to "waste" 1 hour at most understanding the documents than to waste 1 year of mod of development on something that eventually gets perma banned on the platform

[slender jay]

i figured as much

[paper prawn]

And never assume that just because one modding group is doing something with an IP, that means you can too. Sometimes that particular group might have a relationship and permission that you do not...

[latent thorn]

Hi, i just got email for bohemia, and they dont answer my response. The point is that i dont understand the license system, pls explain me - if someone put his mod on the WS with APL license, can other people use its scripts for themselves?

[pearl junco]

https://www.bohemia.net/community/licenses/

[meager sleet]

Depends how you did it. Did you make their mod a dependency, or did you copy their scripts and paste into your mod?

[latent thorn]

I reowrked the script, yeah i used the base of it. Thought its totally "legal" when its not apl-nd

[meager sleet]

That didn't really answer my question. It depends how you did it.

[latent thorn]

No depensencies

[meager sleet]

Yeah if you just copied their scripts and pasted into your mod that is considered stealing IP.

[latent thorn]

Ok, i thought this licence means you are allowed to do this, thank You. Good to know and IP will się soon anyway

[faint nacelle]

Im handling those things so you can DM me the details if you have questions regarding the email.

[latent thorn]

I think everything is clear now, you havent noticed i got second mod made the same way, i will remove it as well

[faint nacelle]

please do.

[latent thorn]

Of course, im obeying the rules, i wasnt fully aware how does it work

[novel goblet]

All APL license allow sharing (assuming you do attribution), but some of them don't allow sharing modified versions?

[old trench]

In any case you should ask the mod creator for permission, lots of creators make their content ND so that people will ask for permission, and it’s always good practice to get approval from the original creator

[latent thorn]

both are removed, i wasn't aware im violating the licenses. and i got little question for future, if me or someone else publish the mod as APL-SA - is everyone allowed to use it/modify/copy/etc? (even without the knowledge of an author)

[paper prawn]

Don't need permission to reupload an APL-ND app with no changes to the workshop. APL-ND explicitly is the permission. Is it bad form, absolutely, but my advice is to never use any of the APL licenses right now, they were designed for a pre-workshop era

And with -SA it's the same re: permission, the license is the permission. The license tells you what you must do on your side.

[old trench]

this is true i guess my point was more its good form to ask permission

[wicked spoke]

@echo orchid - Thought you'd like to have a heads up here since its pretty blatant: https://reforger.armaplatform.com/workshop/65F92D51845AC237-UkraineArmedForcesRHS

[native narwhal]

for general information: RHS does not have any issue with retextures of our stuff into normal generic Ukranian army. It is specific visual representations of the current conflict that we do not condone. But anyway this mod breaks the License propagation clause

[faint nacelle]

Can you make a report in the workshop. With the details

[teal garden]

No thanks 😃

[hollow hull]

To add/ask on APL-ND, some people like to put in their mod descriptions
Line 1: License is APL-ND
Line 2: You may not redistribute the mod

I assume line 2 overrides the permissions given in the license described by line 1.
Is the right?

[paper prawn]

I don't know. I would assume so but I am not a lawyer. Mario or HorribleGoat would need to give the official view

[coral torrent]

It would create ambiguity and using APL is then simply incorrect. Choosing a public license and then wanting to make it non public is wrong. Use ab entirely custom license like "all rights reserved" then.