It was cheaper to get a PS5 than it was to get PC parts.
#other-games
formal jungle
timber prism
This whole "PS5 has no games" is such a weird take when it has a majority of the games .. some even before PC haha
Yeah like my GPU costs more than a whole console
formal jungle
I think the main point people make is the PS5 has no exclusive games, which console exclusivity isn't as big these days it seems. Unless you're Nintendo, most games come out on multiple platforms, which in my opinion, is great. Let more people play more games, regardless of what platform they have.
I'm enjoying playing my PS4 games that I put off with better performance, as well as newer games on my PS5.
One game that I had in the backlog that I'm kinda glad I never got around to playing it had a good 6 or so minute frontload time every time I fired it up on the PS4. On the PS5 it takes 11 seconds lol
timber prism
Yeah. Like huge W for Helldivers to come to xbox
formal jungle
Yeah. Helldivers 2 is lots of fun, let more people at it.
timber prism
That being said, hell yeah ima play new GoT on PS5 at launch
Im not waiting for it to come to PC. Ill just buy it again like the first one
Sorry about the stick drift. I have 4 Dual sense controllers bc i buy the LE ones and fortunately that none have has drifted yet
My latest DS2 one
formal jungle
I have two of them and both have some level of drift, but I did buy a pack of potentiometers and I have already opened one up and swapped it out, it's just a matter of doing it again for the other stick. For some reason I didn't think to check both sticks when I did it.
Though in general, I tend to prefer the dualshock 4, and that doesn't give me any problems, so I just play all my PS5 stuff with that for now. It's a shame I can't actually find any more DS4 controllers though for a reasonable price.
peak marsh
Personally I like my 8bitdo Ultimate. Got it for around $50, comes with a charging dock, compatable with PC, Android, Switch and Switch 2, and Hall Effect sticks so no drift xD
formal jungle
I've never been a fan of the asymmetrical analog sticks. Always felt awkward to me.
peak marsh
Yeah it goes both ways, if you're used to Xbox/Switch sticks PS feels off too
It's just about what feels more comfortable
formal jungle
I've barely played any games for the switch, but when I did play some, I found the joycons too small and the - button was especially awkward for me to hit, having to reach over the analog stick.
So I just got an adapter and played BotW with my PS4 controller >_>
timber prism
My fav was the Xbox 360 controller
peak marsh
Yeah, the original Switch has really small controls, it takes a while to get used to and even then it's just enough to play, not what I'd call comfortable
timber prism
But now its the dual sense bc i love the haptic feedback
Zerax mentioned Returnal which has the coolest haptic feedback
The rain drops on the controller is amazing
formal jungle
Whenever I get around to Returnal, perhaps I should actually play that with my dualsense to see that, after I turn haptic feedback back on.
Instead of DS4.
formal jungle
I disable a lot of the fancy new stuff the dualsense has because it honestly doesn't matter to me, I just feel it as a battery drain :x
formal jungle
I did play Astro's Playroom with all that stuff turned on, and it did feel rather neat.
timber prism
Like miles electric abilities moving from one side of the controller across to the other
formal jungle
No idea about any of that stuff, not a game I ever played.
timber prism
We come a long way since the n64 rumble pack haha
peak marsh
xD The rumble pak with Goldeneye was pretty amazing though
It sucked having to keep fresh batteries in it though
formal jungle
It's been so long that I honestly forgot the rumble pak needed batteries.
vague galleon
im shocked nintendo hasnt bricked consoles over third party controllers yet.
peak marsh
I feel like that's just because they can't really. The backlash would be too massive if you couldn't use a 3rd party controller. Not just for stick drift but because some of them are accessability options
tepid wadi
Zerax mentioned Returnal which has the coolest haptic feedback
I don't even really know anything about that, just Returnal is a very good game, heh
formal jungle
Was checking my spending and trying to find when I bought the Demon's Souls remake... turns out I bought it 5 months before I even got a PS5.
peak marsh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPgdF5mon3U -solid recap of the whole situation
tepid wadi
Definitely sounds like "We deliberately pushed the date out of 2025 so we didn't have to pay you 500 million dollars"
peak marsh
Plus some of the things the publisher is saying just don't seem to make sense for a team that already released a game like the first Subnautica. The fact that they said the game was incomplete and "didn't meet standards", saying the lead took a bunch of the budget to work on a personal film project during the later stages of development, etc. It doesn't make sense that they'd be that undisciplined
Maybe if it was some new studio working on a first project or something, but hard to believe for one that's already has a very successful release
tepid wadi
yeah
peak marsh
Not to mention the way the publisher came in out of the blue and starting making a bunch of wild, sweeping changes
tepid wadi
Just another example of the industry being better off shifting away from publishers as a concept.
peak marsh
Yeah. Granted sometimes a publisher can be helpful for a smaller or newer studio but beyond that, with digital distribution we're past the point of needing a middleman
tepid wadi
Yeah, I mean publishers COULD have a lot of value, but the way they've existed classically is just toxic at this point
peak marsh
Like, studios don't need a large corporation to handle things like printing thousands of discs or doing a bunch of marketing in press outlets
tepid wadi
So much marketing is word of mouth these days, with influencers and all that
peak marsh
Yeah, and moreover people depend less on reviews and more on letting the game speak for itself through actual gameplay
It's why pure gameplay videos with no commentary are so popular
At best publishers should take the role of like a Coffee Stain, where they act as a backer for smaller studios trying to release their first products
More like incubators than being a public face
Well, public face/logistics arm (the marketing, printing, and distributing)
Like, for all the bemoaning of digital distribution (a lot of it completely valid), the one thing it has done is give studios a direct line to their audience
And eliminated some of those barriers to getting a game to market like the manufacturing and distribution
tepid wadi
Yeah, also though gameplay videos with commentary are still usually good. SO many gamers will see the sort of "Theatrical trailers" that AAA companies put out and are just like "Cool, let me know when you're going to show any gameplay."
peak marsh
That's always my thought. I'm completely over the theatrical CG "doesn't tell you anything" style of trailer. Let me see the game
formal jungle
Showing actual gameplay in a trailer? Is that legal?
tranquil cove
That's always my thought. I'm completely over the theatrical CG "doesn't tell yo...
same, i dont watch those usually
unless it's just particularly fun to watch or something or well done, but usually i skip most and search a gameplay video on youtube.
was this on sale and i missed it? https://store.steampowered.com/app/3022790/RimWorld__Odyssey/
or it's not on sale
tepid wadi
That's always my thought. I'm completely over the theatrical CG "doesn't tell yo...
I don't mind a theatrical trailer, but it's never going to sell me on a game. Like save that for your launch trailer
vague galleon
Yeah, also though gameplay videos with commentary are still usually good. SO man...
totally this.
just show me the game already!
man. im reminded of the visual dissodance between old republic trailers and gameplay. didnt expect the actual game to be so cartoony.
peak marsh
I don't mind a theatrical trailer, but it's never going to sell me on a game. Li...
For me like, sure if its like an early reveal of something but during the late 00s and throughout the 2010s you had so many games that would effectively lie about what they were going to look like through "theatrical" CG trailers during the pre-order cycle and you effectively had no way to see what the actual game looked like until it was out (and they already had all that early money)
peak marsh
vague galleon
tepid wadi
I mean I'm not gonna say Zenimax is likely to release my dream MMO, but its always sad when we dont even get to see the gameplay.
peak marsh
Yeah and like, at very least we need some releases in the genre
I can't think of a major MMO release since 2018 and Lost Ark
Well, I should specifically say MMORPG
tepid wadi
New World was 2021, which is unquestionably a MMORPG. It didnt realize the potential, but if thats our bar, theres gonna be verrrrry few, heh.
timber prism
I can't think of a major MMO release since 2018 and Lost Ark
TnL
peak marsh
Oh yeah, you're right. Oh... yeah... you're right... 
stable laurel
New workd looks funny
peak marsh
New World isn't terrible for what it does. It's not amazing but it isn't bad
The action combat feels good enough, not BDO levels but it does what it says on the tin
timber prism
Me to
If you do play one of the legendary servers. Agamar for US or Mordor for EU
They are 64 bit servers which handle lag much better
stable laurel
Shadow of mordor?
timber prism
And is basically the WoW classic treatment
Oh... you said me to LOTRO
Which is their mmo
peak marsh
At least until Amazon comes along sometime in the next year
tepid wadi
New World isn't terrible for what it does. It's not amazing but it isn't bad
NW's problem is one of the ones I've talked about before. Aside from combat and things that support combat, there's nothing to DO
You only have one gameplay loop, especially once you hit endgame
peak marsh
Yeah. It's a constant march to the next quest or objective in a world you don't really interact with
tepid wadi
Yep
peak marsh
Like the zones are all different, but they're just visual set dressing for as much as you actually play a part in them
tepid wadi
Yeah, the world is nice, but it also suffers from the "vertical progression" problem where there's not really much reason to ever visit zones you've completed.
All that design energy and time, just so players can ignore it after ~10 hours or so of gameplay
vague galleon
how dare you say something so true. omg.
tepid wadi
I honestly think that's one of the biggest mistakes that MMOs make
stable laurel
I thought runescape was so boring 😭
peak marsh
Yeah, the world is nice, but it also suffers from the "vertical progression" pro...
Yeah that's what I mean. There's literally no reason to interact with the world itself. It feels like each zone is more like a stage in a platform game rather than part of a living breathing world. Honestly I don't get why so many MMOs do the vertical progression thing, when going back as far as Ultima Online you had higher level areas mixed in with lower level areas in almost every area of the world
Granted sometimes it lead to sitations where a player could find themselves over their head, but that made the world feel dangerous and alive and gave a sense of trepedation in exploring. Do you stick to the safe lower level areas everyone knows and frequents, or do you forge out into the dangerous unknown?
But it also incentivized coming back later, to explore those areas that were over your head once you're better equipped to handle them
tepid wadi
Yeah, I don't think each zone should be a flat difficulty, but the world should be a nice blend of things designed for different types of play. But there's no reason they can't be valid all the time.
There's all sorts of other ways to incentivize exploration without forcing vertical progression
But it requires kind of re-evaluating design strategies from the ground up
vague galleon
I thought runescape was so boring 😭
you should have played it in when it first came out. 😭
stable laurel
I hate the farm and stand afk for 5 hours
I wanna destroy some monsters and cool bosses
For a mount
vague galleon
it used to be so much worse
tepid wadi
I hate the farm and stand afk for 5 hours
This gets at one of my biggest MMO gripes. You can make crafting and gathering actually fun, you just have to actually... design them as fun activities.
vague galleon
didnt runescape introduce more fun ways to farm? eventually?
peak marsh
Yeah, and they're currently completely revamping their MTX
Basically they realized they went too far under past management so now they're reeling it back in
vague galleon
sweet patrol
I told them not to build that leaning tower of .....(fill in the blanks)🤣
peak marsh
tepid wadi
I watched that earlier. TL:DW : No
peak marsh
Yeah, it really seems like grind: the game
tepid wadi
A lot of games that are copying Everquest or Runescape are like that
peak marsh
Which is frustrating to me because yes they're mimicking the notable parts, namely the insane amount of grind, without also mimicking the parts that made them interesting and whimsical
tepid wadi
Yeah, unfortunately. It's really easy to pick up on the surface level stuff without understanding the why
peak marsh
Like in games like EQ or Runescape people pushed through the grind because the world was interesting, their friends were there, and they wanted to advance. They weren't doing it because they loved grinding so much xD
And I mean you could counter that games like Stardew or Animal Crossing do the same kind of grind, but they also again have engrossing worlds to get involved in
Take Animal Crossing, you aren't just grinding for grind's sake, you're building relationships with the other people in the town and resolving their problems, and the grind is a method towards the goal
Here it just seems like "Alrigtht here's a bunch of grind, you figure out a reason for it"
Potentially said by someone in a white tank top as they drag off a cigarette
And TBF, Animal Crossing and Stardew aren't my kind of games but I can see the appeal. Here, not as much
tepid wadi
I think the thing about grind is that anything can feel like a grind if you're just doing the same thing over and over and over. So where games like Stardew and Animal Crossing shine is that they are constantly mixing things up for the player and getting them to do different stuff. It's the same thing with survival games where they constantly have you going out to gather different things.
vague galleon
in emshrouded i dont mind mining clay or salt or sulfur or even copper and tin but once you get to silver it takes too long.
vague galleon
tepid wadi
I dunno, it's in line with what they've said about getting all the MTX ported from POE1 to 2, so that's fair in my eyes.
They gotta do it sometime
timber prism
Thing about Bitcraft for thus video is that Peon is making the game unnecessarily more grindy than it should be
He is playing it entirely solo which is not how this game should be played
The whole point of bitcraft is being part of a community
You are supposed to chose a role
tepid wadi
Ehh, I feel like a big chunk of MMO players will spend a good amount of time playing solo and want to be able to accomplish things doing that.
timber prism
Like he mentions repeatedly in this he doesn't know what the point of the game is when its spelled out for you in every trailer starting from the first one
timber prism
Ehh, I feel like a big chunk of MMO players will spend a good amount of time pla...
Then they entirely missed the point and focus of the game and its not for them
tepid wadi
Also fair, I suppose
tepid wadi
Sure, but who doesn't want to be at the top of the empire?
Only a few well-coordinated groups are going to be able to accomplish that.
I dunno what the 'minimum viable' community size is for the game, but a lot of players are going to want to play in pretty small groups
timber prism
Its survival 101 imo
Like every successful guild who has played a game focuses on one role
vague galleon
honestly people who want to play an MMO solo need to just go play skyrim. rude opinion, maybe, but the MM stands for MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER
timber prism
And its explained clearly (imo) in their videos
tepid wadi
Nah, I disagree. I think playing solo as part of a community is a completely reasonable way to play a MMO
Sometimes just being around other people playing is part of the charm.
Obviously the design should support/encourage large groups, but I don't know that requiring a large group to play is the best way.
timber prism
I think its okay if its not the focus of the game
But if a game has a main goal of becoming a community
tepid wadi
Yeah, I mean Bitcraft is going for that, just like Pax Dei is
timber prism
Being the solo person who does everything by themselves is not the way to play
So of course its going to seem super grindy
tepid wadi
I think Peon goes in blind to a lot of those videos, so unless the game spells it out inside the game it might not be clear that the community aspect is kind of required.
tepid wadi
Also, it needs mechanics to support the idea. It can't just say "Be part of a community" and then not like... have the mechanics meaningfuly enforce that concept (aside from making things grindy if you do it yourself).
Like, markets, trade interactions, regional resources, etc etc etc
timber prism
It just makes sense to me knowing what type of game its supposed to be
It has all that
You literally can make a market and sell anything
Like a stand
And plop it down in any space
This is my market stall
tepid wadi
But is there any reason to interact with it if your group does all the stuff themselves anyway?
Is there any actual reason to interact between empires?
timber prism
Yeah
Resources abundant in certain areas vs others
Limited teleport travel as well
There is also varying prices between using the auction house vs personal stalls
So people will often trade between eachother
Instead of playing solo
tepid wadi
Fair
Yeah, it may be that he just engages with it in a way that it's not meant to be played. But I do think he's approaching it like most MMO players would approach a new game
tepid wadi
He obviously doesn't get into if the game can be satisfying for a solo player because he doesn't know what's going on
timber prism
Bc that's how most mmos have been since wow
Solo theme parks
Where all you do is raid
tepid wadi
Yeah, the theme park raid MMO is definitely the most common
timber prism
Even archeage can be played solo
So there really hasn't been many options if any that require multiple players since the old mmos
tepid wadi
Well, I think archage is an interesting case. Because I played mostly solo/small group, and there were definitely things that were better with big groups.
timber prism
Yeah
tepid wadi
Having both modes be viable ways to play is something that I feel like is actually really important, because lots of players WANT to play solo at least part of the time.
timber prism
There are some things in AA that just cant be accomplished solo
tepid wadi
Definitely, and that's important
You can't make large group play viable without having goals and things that require them
timber prism
I think bitcraft works bc its a slow burn game
That you can play on your second monitor pretty easily
tepid wadi
That's actually the main thing that turns me off about it, I can't stand second-monitor games.
tepid wadi
Call me old fashioned but I like to play games while I'm playing games, heh
timber prism
But some people def love gaming on the side while they work CD
Hence idle games
Im actually growing into loving idle games
Cornerpond is a good for me
tranquil cove
Like in games like EQ or Runescape people pushed through the grind because the w...
i appreciate you, thanks again for talking about the pihole as i was never aware of it before. wouldn't have known about it if it wasn't for you speaking in here 🙏
tranquil cove
https://youtu.be/o5vnnzlrFFI
that looks based off that game where you send people letters/therapy advice
timber prism
As someone who liked Tamagotchi's as a kid it works the same way
timber prism
that looks based off that game where you send people letters/therapy advice
Never heard of it
Did you have to actually type in stuff for said letters?
tranquil cove
tranquil cove
Did you have to actually type in stuff for said letters?
yeah, and surprisingly, i don't think it has any trolls
i think people read real letters from other people having problems and genuingly try and help, but maybe the trolls get banned who knows.
tranquil cove
or maybe they developed a system to detect troll letters and not send them
tranquil cove
Sounds too involved to be the same type of game
yeah it just had the same graphical look a bit, thought maybe it was the same company
timber prism
Pixel art is pretty big
tranquil cove
what do you do in the painter idle game?
timber prism
Literally watch that trailer
tranquil cove
like you idle as bob ross? 😆
timber prism
That's what you do
tranquil cove
i mean like whats the idle goal? become a better painter?
timber prism
Paint stuff yes
Hence mini painter
Or cornerpond
Fish
Literally the point of the games XD
tranquil cove
the only idle game i ever got into was NGU Idle
i have like a measly 12k hours in it
i think idle games are okay, there is progression in them, it's like a very long term oriented game.
timber prism
bad at acryonyms.. what is NGU?
tranquil cove
haha me too, and no idea, the game is called NGUidle
tranquil cove
timber prism
yeah looked it up
some people in one of my discords play one called Idleon
or something... its like maple story
but idle
it has the option of not being idle though
for faster progression
short sail
https://www.theregister.com/2025/07/14/atari_chess_vs_gemini/
A case of sore loser. Imagine chess tournaments went like this. 
peak marsh
tepid wadi
👀
misty arch
well the force did bring down the empire. lets hope it can save mmos
tepid wadi
On that list, maybe 4 of them are actual MMOs, not shared-world co-op games
peak marsh
Yeah, frankly it's looking bleak
tepid wadi
Don't I know it.
obtuse scroll
yeah, so out of all of that, only light no fire is on my list for hope and that's not an MMO. So, not really any MMOs coming up -_-
tepid wadi
I'm cautiously optimistic for Ashes of Creation, but a lot of their systems feel like they've taken the wrong lessons from Archeage
vague galleon
Guys, we already have a great MMO! Did you know that the critically acclaimed MMORPG Final Fantasy XIV has a free trial, and includes the entirety of A Realm Reborn AND the award-winning Heavensward expansion up to level 60 with no restrictions on playtime?
vague galleon
yeah, so out of all of that, only light no fire is on my list for hope and that'...
doesnt that one require an epic account? on steam?
tepid wadi
Light No Fire is the next game from the No Man's Sky team, so no I don't thinkso
tepid wadi
Guys, we already have a great MMO! Did you know that the critically acclaimed MM...
I'd go back and play GW2 again before I went back to FFXIV 😝
peak marsh
I gave FFXIV a shot and it was alright, but it didn't grab me
Maybe I hit my ceiling for uwu or something
I mean, I'm being flippant xD The game itself was fine, just something about it didn't click for me, one of those "can't put my finger on it" kind of things
obtuse scroll
I played FFXIV since the start. I've done my time there
tranquil cove
i stopped playing mmos 18 years ago
why y'all still trying to find a good mmo
doesnt exist
and also a huge waste of time and time sink that is never worth it
play sims it's better for wasting time
vague galleon
I'd go back and play GW2 again before I went back to FFXIV 😝
honestly FF14 is just as awful as wow, I hear the guild wars games were good.
vague galleon
Light No Fire is the next game from the No Man's Sky team, so no I don't thinkso
then i am confusing it with something else.
FF14'
s combat is only slightly better than wow and the cinematics piss me off. you're just a mute errand boy while the NPCs talk like they're such hard working and important people.
timber prism
I mean. It would get pretty expensive to have voice-over for a custom character where you have a bunch of voices to choose from
I understand why its a thing
FF14 is one of my top 5 MMOs I played
vague galleon
okay but there's other ways to give you character a voice and feel like you have impact on the story.
just look at Runescape and Old Republic.
there's plenty of nonvoiced scenes in 14.
tepid wadi
The thing I never liked about FF14 is there's no real class customization. There's still skill expression in how well you play the classes, but each class is pretty much the same. unless that's changed since I played forever ago.
timber prism
okay but there's other ways to give you character a voice and feel like you have...
You didn't feel like you had any impact on the story in FF14?
I thought overall FF14 has the best story of any mmo
peak marsh
Having played both I'd argue ESO
timber prism
And you go through all of it with the main characters
peak marsh
But that's partially because the cast really sells it
vague galleon
You didn't feel like you had any impact on the story in FF14?
i only played it for a month but ya the story felt quite insulting.
timber prism
I personally think the cast for both Japanese and dub is better in FF
Starting at ARR?
vague galleon
ya
timber prism
That is definitely the rough point
vague galleon
a friend at the time got impatient and bought a second copy so I gave it a try.
timber prism
As the xpac expanded the game more and more went more voiceovers
timber prism
The combat in wow and FF14 are completely different
Not sure how you are comparing them
peak marsh
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3485722/fullcredits/#cast - I mean it's a tough act to follow with names like Kate Beckinsdale, Nolan North, Malcom McDowell, and John Cleese
vague galleon
i played both around the same time and they were too similiar.
vague galleon
if you say so.
timber prism
I know so
Having played both for years
It would be like comparing Enshrouded combat to valheim
vague galleon
so you're saying they're different cause one is a red apple and the other is a green apple.
timber prism
The overall flow of combat in both games are completely different
vague galleon
it's still boring ass auto attack with occasionally tapping your hotkeys.
timber prism
You have gcd, ogcd abilities to weave.. timing for phases that change combos you would do
All of it
tepid wadi
I think I get what Endalrin is saying, I don't love the tab-targeting style of combat
peak marsh
I think in this case it's more not having a taste for tab target. Put it another way, if you're not into fighting games Street Fighter 6 is just like Tekken 8
tepid wadi
It doesn't feel as engaging as more actiony combat
timber prism
Gotcha
vague galleon
I am assuming the minute details are different.
timber prism
They aren't minute
vague galleon
but for a casual player there's hardly a difference.
vague galleon
Hi, that's me. Casual player.
timber prism
Yeah. As someone who plays mmos i cant see how they would ever be the same
Just like saying BDO and GW play the same
timber prism
I think in this case it's more not having a taste for tab target. Put it another...
Yeah. This is wild to me XD
It would be like saying Mario and Sonic play the same
😂
But i understand you now
So yeah. They are the same
vague galleon
they do, you run and jump across a screen. totally the same. 😛
peak marsh
I mean, I agree, but I've also gone pretty deep in the weeds with MMOs
vague galleon
I HATE 3D platformers.
peak marsh
Ratchet and Clank was a pretty great time
timber prism
They are the same as 2D
peak marsh
Spyro too
timber prism
You just run and jump
vague galleon
ratchet and clank was good until you get to the racing segments.
F those racing segments, stopped me dead cold on the first two games.
timber prism
Donkey Kong Country is my all time fav
peak marsh
Oh and Psychonauts. That game was fantastic
DKC2 was pretty great. 1 and 3 good, but less great
timber prism
As an overall series
Individually... i think Sonic 2 and Super Mario 3 tie for very best
vague galleon
here's an idea, if your game is a hack and slash platformer maybe dont impede my progress with a stupid racing segment.
timber prism
Haha
vague galleon
I like supermario world on the SNES. kind of.
timber prism
I liked those segments tho
vague galleon
oh sure as a side mission they can be fun
timber prism
Battletoads was crazy for it too
vague galleon
but when they're half baked tacked on crap that impedes my progress? no.
peak marsh
True story, I was a legend in my neighborhood as a kid because I could beat the turbo tunnel
Never beat Battletoads, I couldn't get much past the snake level, but I had that going for me
timber prism
Haha
vague galleon
i should give the ratchetr and clank games another try, i think i still own them, but man that racing shit got me salty.
peak marsh
xD Then you finally beat it but you're down to 1 turtle with like one pip of health left
vague galleon
peak marsh
My entry, simply titled "Rage"
vague galleon
im at the point where if I die to a segment too much, I find a new game.
tepid wadi
Titled "stress"
timber prism
Lmao
I was born in the fire known as Ninja Gaiden
Wall climbing in the first one was so much fun to learn
tepid wadi
Ninja Gaiden is one of the all time greats
peak marsh
Titled "stress"
To this day I can hear that music
tepid wadi
To this day I can hear that music
It makes a great alarm clock if you want to start every day off wrong
timber prism
Yeah. I think its my all time favorite NES game?
I dont know. There were so many classics
Megaman 2
Is up there for me as well
Double dragon 2
River city ransom
peak marsh
Yeah, it's really hard to pick just one. Megaman 2 and 3, River City Ransom, Double Dragon 2, Mario 3
timber prism
😭
peak marsh
Stop typing my sentance faster than I am xD
timber prism
Lmao
tepid wadi
I never knew battletoads was one of those "insanely hard" games. It was just a good game that we played lots of
Same thing with the Lion King genesis game, heh
peak marsh
Yeah, on the NES spectrum it's really hard and they screwed up the 2 player by leaving it friendly fire only
Stage 2 when you're on the ropes was nearly impossible 2 player
And yeah, Lion King surprised me, I remember beating that one back in the day
I don't remember it being like, brutally hard at the time
timber prism
Aladdin was great too
tepid wadi
Yeah, a lot of those early years platformers
peak marsh
Yeah, I used to play tons of Genesis Aladdin
timber prism
Genesis gold like Jurassic Park lmao
peak marsh
That and Castlevania Bloodlines were probably my most played games at a time
Playing as the raptor was amazing back in the day xD
timber prism
Or the X-Men genesis game
tepid wadi
These darn kids today with their "save points". Back in my day you got 3 lives and that was IT
peak marsh
And no continues
timber prism
Cant turn off your system bc it will lose your progress XD
tepid wadi
And no continues
Yeah, you can continue. FROM THE BEGINNING
timber prism
Lmao
peak marsh
Gah, I still remember back in the day, I made it further than I ever had in Power Blade, left the game paused to go have dinner, and my dad turned it off "because I forgot to" 
timber prism
😭
peak marsh
"What's the problem, just play it again"
timber prism
That was me and Ghouls n Ghosts
peak marsh
Actually I remember in the PS1 days I had a friend who tried to beat Final Fantasy 7 that way because he couldn't afford a memory card and his original one broke xD
tepid wadi
That was me and Ghouls n Ghosts
Oh man I played so much ghouls and ghosts on my lunch breaks while working at costco 😝 They had the little arcade machine with all the classics on it
peak marsh
When I was a kid it was Sears (got that makes me sound old xD). They had a little video game counter next to the kids clothing department, so my grandma would park me there while she clothes shopped with my sister
Genesis, SNES, Gameboy, and Virtual Boy kiosks
timber prism
Bah! Another controller T_T
Speaking of SF6... Sagat looking gooooood https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBNCSeG391Y&pp=0gcJCc0JAYcqIYzv
peak marsh
Bah! Another controller T_T
I'm not huge on limited edition controllers but that's pretty clean
timber prism
yah, gold fleck. Cuts into the controller
im a big fan of it
there is also a black one instead of gold
but the gold is much more unique
peak marsh
I like that they're leaning more into the muy tai with Sagat. I feel like in a lot of games he was just a brawler who occasionally throws knees
That finisher combo of his is viscious
timber prism
i like how he is more lanky again
he was like way too muscle bound post Alpha series
He looks way taller this way
peak marsh
Yeah that's what I mean. He just looked and played like a big brawler, but here he looks more like a muy tai fighter and you see a lot more knees and elbows
Kinda reminds me of Ong Bak
ebon tartan
Ah yes, average day on the job
obtuse scroll
LOL Your normal day seems not so great to me. I think you need to get a better normal day
ebon tartan
yeah 😂 I feel like that might be a dealbreaker for a real job
ashen notch
If you love puzzles and exploring a spectacular world, this is your game: https://store.steampowered.com/app/2071500/Islands_of_Insight/
peak marsh
tepid wadi
Oof, but also not surprising
peak marsh
honest valley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmLlsIH81Ks
so no expedition 34? tldr?
peak marsh
tl;dr it's a story about funding and finding the right publisher. There was another game parallel to Exp33, also from former Ubisoft devs, and also a pretty good looking JRPG with FF10 inspirations, but while Exp33 found the right publisher who funded them fully, the other had the bottom drop out and became a cautionary tale for other publishers about taking chances
Which is bad news for future games like Exp33
honest valley
Which is bad news for future games like Exp33
💀
vague galleon
NGL, id love to find a way to play Diablo 1 again and play with a group. that game still holds up.
vague galleon
🤷♂️
peak marsh
That is a pretty good freebie. Makes me wish I haden't already bought it ages ago xD
tepid wadi
Yeah, if you don't already own it, it's one of the better CIV games
Though they'll never top the CIV 4 intro music
timber prism
I always say I love Civ until I try to play a match with friends that takes forever
peak marsh
Yeah, Civ isn't a game so much as it's a commitment xD
tepid wadi
Yeah, 4X games definitely aren't for everyone
peak marsh
It's fun occasionally when the mood strikes. There's something about watching Ghandi nuke Cleopatra xD But 4x isn't my absolute favorite
tepid wadi
That piece of CIV trivia is one of my favorites.
For those that don't know: CIV 2, Ghandi had the lowest aggression score possible, but there was a tech you could research that would lower everyone's aggression score. But that would put his aggression to a negative number, which the game didn't know how to handle, so it set his aggression to 255. The normal max was 10, so Ghandi became a murder machine
peak marsh
And thus, Nuclear Ghandi was born
Starting with Civ V they actually programmed him that way on purpose xD
tepid wadi
Honestly, the meme is worth it at this point
peak marsh
TL; DR he made a custom shell for the Switch 2 dock so other handhelds will fit in it, and it works. He then goes on to complain about how Nintendo locked out 3rd party docks by effectively encrypting their USB signals and apparently, they can change that encryption with a firmware update. So 3rd parties have already broken the encryption but Nintendo can effectively brick them with a simple software update
Like, the dock/Switch won't be actually bricked, but the 3rd party dock won't work any more
vague galleon
petty
peak marsh
Yeah. Basically the official dock sends out seemingly random voltages when it's plugged in that the Switch looks for before it sends along the video signal (made possible because both power and video are handled by the USB-C), and basically they can change those voltage "keys" to whatever they want by updating the Switch, which will then require plugging in your dock to ethernet for a matching update
AFAIK, I'm paraphrasing a bit
So a 3rd party can bypass it by sending those same voltages, but after a time Nintendo can just change the voltage
So 3rd party dock manufacturers now need to make their docks more expensive by allowing them to also receive firmware updates, and there will be periods of time where the 3rd party dock won't work while they figure out the new voltage "key", assuming they even update (good ones will, cheap ones won't)
peak marsh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LztDInfxcp0 - Just in case anyone needed a live example of what nepotism looks like
quartz fable
peak marsh
peak marsh
peak marsh
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2070270/Cloudheim/ -Upcoming co-op action adventure RPG with crafting, currently running a free playtest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX-CFW0helQ -First impressions video of the game
I'm installing it. looks interesting
vague galleon
hmmm
peak marsh
From the video seems a lot more action combat focused than building/crafting. Actually I'm not sure it has building at all, you upgrade an existing base
vague galleon
looks like it.
peak marsh
Seems worth checking out for a free playtest, the combat looks solid
vague galleon
maybe
peak marsh
NVM, looks like the crafting is a big focus. Part of your base is you run a shop that NPCs will buy things from, so you can craft to fill your shop space to make gold for new gear
vague galleon
you sell to NPCs?
peak marsh
Yeah, they show it in the video. You get a shop space with some tables, you fill the tables with items and ring a bell and NPCs will pop out and browse what you have for sale. Some will buy whatever while others come looking for specific items
It looks interesting. It seems like it gives some added utility to keep crafting and to craft a variety of items
vague galleon
uh oh what now?
misty arch
bunch of stuff. vulnerabilities in the programs they push and now there is a very big issue with their routers.
vague galleon
yay
peak marsh
Hm. Having played the tutorial it's interesting, but probably not my cup o tea. Ill give it a little more time, the physics are interesting but it definitely feels very beta and for a combat focused game, the combat feels a little loose and button-mashy
Like it's all about combos to the point you get more rewards for landing higher combos, but at least early on it doesn't feel like it gives you a whole lot of skill opportunity to execute them, the game just kind of automatically does them or not
Like it doesn't feel controlled or fluid, which I would say are the most important parts of an action combat system
But that's just very early impressions, maybe it opens up more as you unlock more 🤷♂️
vague galleon
peak marsh
https://youtu.be/Vy_KWP04pfs?si=sBtvtj0FwiE16Dkk
It's a shame what's happened to Asus. 10 - 15 years ago they were known for exceptional customer service and top quality products
peak marsh
Once Human has a full loot zone. There's also Corepunk but that one's early days
Also Dune Awakening once you reach the deep desert
tepid wadi
Dune isn't full loot
You've got the classics like Rust, Ark, and stuff that are all full loot
peak marsh
Oh my bad, I was under the impression it was
tranquil cove
still waiting for vanilla rimworld to include roombas
you'd think the dev could make something to clean the hallways by now
i had this idea day 1, and it's 10 years later and rimworld still failing to do the most qol things.
but still releasing weird dlcs and charging full price for them
the game dev is annoying
quartz fable
i want an mmo full loot idk why they dont make them.. so dumb
fossil mountain
i want an mmo full loot idk why they dont make them.. so dumb
Becuse there is not many players who would want to spend hundreds of hours on character and then lose everything. It can work as gamemode (like hardcore) but as main gimmick, those have not really been as succesful
tepid wadi
There are a few of them, but they tend to have REALLY small player bases.
peak marsh
i want an mmo full loot idk why they dont make them.. so dumb
Yeah, what they said. MMOs are already a niche genre, and full loot is a very small niche within a niche. Nothing against them personally they just aren't popular enough for companies to take the chance on them
tranquil cove
full loot mmo needs ability to leave a grenade in your bag, that you detonate
so after you die, someone full loots you, and explodes and dies
it's only fair
booby trapped bags would be funny
timber prism
i want an mmo full loot idk why they dont make them.. so dumb
Companies want a healthy playerbase size and the demographic for people who want full loot is such a niche even among a small mmo playerbase already. Albion is one of the more successful (good) ones
You can try Eve Online
peak marsh
Yeah it's kind of a smaller scale version of the WoW problem. New games in the space have to struggle to get players from an already small player base because they're all already playing Albion
tranquil cove
i never liked eve online
i played it for 5 minutes and decided it was pretty bad
unless they changed it completely, it's still pretty bad imo
timber prism
Yeah. Its not for everyone but its objectively a great game. Full loot mmos dont survive for 20+ years being bad. It would be like saying WoW is a bad MMO.
tranquil cove
Yeah. Its not for everyone but its objectively a great game. Full loot mmos dont...
no its bad because its not skill based
its a button presser
you get your timing right and you win
it's based on automatic defenses
im pretty sure the amount of times you are required to aim or kill people yourself is very limited
what kind of pvp game doesn't allow me to evade through flying and kill through aiming?
timber prism
You are completely wrong
tranquil cove
im completely right
timber prism
bc this is how you feel about it
tranquil cove
see i can make vague claims too without backing it up
timber prism
like I said its not for you
Any live service game that can keep the population that it has for 20+ years
tranquil cove
it's not about me, its about bad game design
timber prism
is a great game
tranquil cove
try not to make everything about me
timber prism
you are literally a NPC
there is no point in debating this with you
go talk to your AI
tranquil cove
bad games have players, popularity doesn't make something less bad or more good
its not about popularity contests
timber prism
Also false
tranquil cove
not false
timber prism
completely
tranquil cove
see i can make vague claims too without backing them up aka not false
timber prism
Im sorry you are too ignorant to understand what im saying
im not going to debate this with you
tranquil cove
i am right completley - vague claim, except i gave more points to back it up than you did.
timber prism
You literally just want to argue
tranquil cove
you would lose the debate anyway
timber prism
you already lost
tranquil cove
i already won
vague claim, see i can do it too
you're clearly not here to make points, and just state vague things
timber prism
Im not going to debate someone who is ignorant like you
tranquil cove
Wants Action-Based PvP: Prefers real-time skill expression (aiming, dodging, flying, etc.) — closer to games like Elite Dangerous, Star Citizen, or first-person shooters.
Dislikes Passive Combat Mechanics: Sees EVE's "lock and shoot" system (targeting, activating modules, etc.) as unengaging or simplistic.
"Button presser" criticism: This often reflects distaste for "hotbar" MMOs or games that rely more on stats, preparation, and timing than reflexes and player dexterity.
again i make points
you make vague claims and make it personal
and make it about me
it's about bad game design
tranquil cove
yes that is making it about me
timber prism
if it didn't people wouldn't play it for 20+ years
tranquil cove
Eve has a great game design
that is a vague claim
i can make vague claims too. eve has bad game design. see i did it.
timber prism
LOL
tranquil cove
no points to back it up
except i already said some points earlier
you said nothing, except a vague claim
tranquil cove
you have no points because its a bad game, what i said is objectively true
timber prism
you are so dumb you dont even get that
I have plenty of points i could argue with you about
but im not going to
bc i dont like you
hollow barn
Just ignore him at that point
timber prism
@hollow barn You are right. Sorry
tranquil cove
anyway eve is a pvp game lacking aim/dodge skill expression because everything is done automatically.
tranquil cove
Just ignore him at that point
the advice should be, be respectful and dont insult people
timber prism
Ima just block him so I never have to see his comments ever again
tranquil cove
but i guess the mods only care when i break rules 😆
timber prism
Actual NPC
tranquil cove
because i am not liked
tranquil cove
Actual NPC
EVE Online is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) where player skill, particularly aiming, is not a primary factor in success. While there is some player vs. player (PvP) combat, it's largely based on strategic positioning, ship fitting, and understanding game mechanics rather than twitch-based aiming skills. The game emphasizes long-term planning, resource management, and social interaction within a vast, player-driven universe.
basically even in older MMOS I was aiming more with bow and arrow and magic attacks.
In EVE Online, players don't directly aim weapons in the way a first-person shooter might. Instead, they command their ships, and weapons are aimed and fired automatically based on various factors like range, speed, and tracking speed. Players can influence these factors by controlling their ship's movement and positioning relative to their target.
The game plays more like an RTS. Not a pvp game.
timber prism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX-CFW0helQ -First impressions video of the game
I watched the vid on this.. I like the graphics.. the combo's left a lot to be desired for. When you described combo system.. i was thinking it was going to be more like Berserker Khazan
Fantastic game if you want a Souls like action game that is faster paced with better combos
the boss battles were a lot of fun
peak marsh
Yeah, maybe it's because it's early days but the combat in general feels floaty and like... automatic, like I didn't feel fully in control of what I was doing outside of mashing attack (Cloudheim)
timber prism
I definitely had the moment where I was playing.. killed a boss.. only to realize it was just a phase XD
and was like.. OH.. guess im gonna die now XD
peak marsh
I've been meaning to check out Khazan, I've pretty much only heard good things about it
hollow barn
Khazan is quite good, might like to randomly crank up the difficulty by 500%
tepid wadi
Yeah, maybe it's because it's early days but the combat in general feels floaty ...
I feel like for a lot of games, the combat is what you need to nail first. People will accept mediocre secondary systems if the combat is fun, but the combat being not fun will harm the rest of the game.
There's also something there about games being super combat-centric, but that's a different philosophical topic
tranquil cove
Yeah, maybe it's because it's early days but the combat in general feels floaty ...
that's why eve online isn't a good pvp game in the traditional sense, you're not in control a lot of the time you are just getting in range while automatic systems do something, or you are timing your automatic system to do something at the right moment for the best effectiveness... there is planning control like in an RTS, but you don't feel actually in control. player ability doesn't factor much into things, it's more of a planning game.
and i dont know about anyone else, but i don't go calling my RTS games, PVP games
This planning aspect is what makes EVE deep and appealing to some—but also why it feels “detached” and low-agency to others.
sweet patrol
Eve is an amazing game. Not for me at all but I can see the appeal and the depth of design that went into it
tranquil cove
You’re not manually aiming weapons, dodging, or executing actions with fast reflexes so it wont be fun from the perspective of players who only enjoy direct skill-based PvP. It’s like being a commander in a war room rather than a fighter pilot in the cockpit, and when I first played eve I expected to be a fighter pilot in a cockpit and got hugely disappointed.
tepid wadi
That doesnt make it a bad game. It just makes it not what you want.
Skill at planning and coordinating and commanding is still skill. Games like EvE and RTS appeal to players who enjoy that over execution.
For example, I'm not the best FPS player, but I still win games a lot in BR games because I'm good at the positioning and shot calling aspects.
You can't make a real argument that I'm not PVPing in a BR game because I'm not focused on shooting. I'm still combating other players by predicting their position, understanding their tactics, and coordinating my group towards success.
timber prism
Skill at planning and coordinating and commanding is still skill. Games like EvE...
Agreed. Even on top of this there is a lot of micro going on in RTS games especially ones like Starcraft where you can easily distinguish a good player who can micro their units so a team of 4 units can defeat almost double the numbers of the same unit versus someone just moving them into a spot.
tepid wadi
Yep, just because its a type of skill that I dont enjoy doesnt make it not skill. Its just a different type of PVP than I like. I suck ass at RTS games, but they're definitely pvp
timber prism
There is reason why Starcraft became as big as it did for ESports.
No one can make a sport of something that doesnt require skill XD
tepid wadi
Yep
vague galleon
cries in lack of skill at SC
tepid wadi
Only RTS game I've ever loved was Dune 2000, which was aeons ago 😝
And thats just because I'm a big Dune nerd.
timber prism
Mind you. EVE has all of this... to think it isnt skill based is just laughable and just goes to show the NPC doesn't have any idea what they are actually talking about. You literally outfit your ship with weapons, learn the ranges of them, learn your enemy skill level by how well how well the know how to fly their ship
Just because you dont aim 100% where a weapon hits by manually aiming said weapon doesnt make it not skill based
timber prism
*cries in lack of skill at SC*
I used to play every day after school with a group of friends
And it was super easy to see the level differences between us bc one of my friends had a crazy APM XD
I was okay at micro but compared to them where like... you never need to see your base bc its all hotkeyed etc blew my mind XD
vague galleon
the best i ever tried was just turtleing. even my friend who's better at RTS than me, we had to team up on a specific map against ONE AI and just join our forces into a wall to hold off their waves until they ran out of reesources.
i always wanted a long empire building game of back and forth skirmishes but RTS matches just never end in a way I find satisfying and my favorite one was starcraft.
I do tend to enjoy games like x-com a bit more for strategy,
timber prism
The protoss Canon strat
With carriers
Slowly take over the map XD
Xcom is fantastic
I also liked the square Enix one
vague galleon
FFT?
tepid wadi
Supreme commander was definitely cool, I was real bad at it though.
peak marsh
I tend to lean more medieval resource management in my RTS. Stuff like Manor Lords or Farthest Frontier. Though back in the day I was an absolute maniac for Red Alert 2 and 3 xD
I had a friend that used to join me and we'd do 2 vs 6 brutal AI "comp stomps" xD
When I wasn't doing just random versus matches
vague galleon
ya i tried a few but SC and WC were the only ones i got into with their controls and units
sadly red alert didnt draw me in.
tranquil cove
That doesnt make it a bad game. It just makes it not what you want.
it's a bad pvp game, not necessarily a bad game
tranquil cove
Yep, just because its a type of skill that I dont enjoy doesnt make it not skill...
i don't know if i would call this a skill. once you're 40 years old you don't need much brain power to play any type of game and there are guides online. it's a time investment and experienced based gameplay. that's not a skill. tactics are generally easy to understand when you watch 1 gameplay video of combat in any game.
execution might be a skill
but even with execution, how hard is it to mash a button at the right time really? unless you're playing god tier tetris where you need finger dexterity to do rolling on the gamepad for level 132. then even execution isn't a skill, unless its tetris. lol
tetris execution requires similar skill people need to solve a rubix cube in under 8 seconds... actual practice with finger techniques.
the actual challenge in a game like eve online is more about building up muscle memories until they're second nature, and it’s not about the mental complexity of "figuring out what to do," because that’s relatively easy. it's about how accurately and consistently you can perform an action under pressure, over and over again. speed isn't even a factor because we all have the same reaction time pretty much.
tepid wadi
Yeah, if you want to be that reductive every game is just pressing the right button at the right time. But if you're being similarly reductive, every action that requires any skill requires practice and understanding to master.
So in essence you've proved my point. EvE requires skill because you need to reliably understand how to do things like set your ships up appropriately, manage your weapons and defenses, maneuver your ship at the appropriate ranges, etc. EvE as a specific example doesnt rely on reaction time, but instead adaptability to new scenarios. I guarantee you that if you or I were gifted a perfect ship with all the best gear, we still wouldnt be able to tackle the same challenges that someone who intimately knows EvE's systems can. Hence, skill.
If you can be good or bad at a thing, it requires skill. Not all things require the same skills, but it is skill nonetheless.
I'd challenge you to find ANY study that describes games like starcraft or EvE as "skillless"
tranquil cove
Yeah, if you want to be that reductive every game is just pressing the right but...
i guess i don't get it, i view time investment = you become good, as not directly skill based. for example, if a game requires knowing a map then knowing a map is not a skill. it's a matter of time and experience playing on that map. for me skill is a direct expression of intellect to physical movement in real time. planning is not a skill, it's an intellectual exercise to me that anyone can achieve. aiming is a skill, moving your character properly is a skill. positioning your character in a game where positioning matters is more passive and not real time, so it's not a skill, it's an intellectual exercise again.
tepid wadi
Clearly you've never worked a job with bad managers or you'd know that planning is 100% a skill
tranquil cove
Clearly you've never worked a job with bad managers or you'd know that planning ...
yeah but im more interested if you can figure out what i mean when i say skill
and then if that is an actual criteria or category
maybe i need to ask chatgpt 😆
tepid wadi
Maybe if people dont know what you mean when you say words, you should find better words to describe what you mean.
tranquil cove
like perhaps what you're saying is in a broader category, a skill. but i am focused on a more narrow category of skill.
peak marsh
I mean, physical skill isn't the one and only type of skill. Preparation is a skill. Planning is a skill. Execution is a skill. It's why some people are good at those things and others aren't
tranquil cove
Maybe if people dont know what you mean when you say words, you should find bett...
i disagree, part of the problem lies with the people reading, it's not 100% my problem.
tepid wadi
Lol
tranquil cove
smart people will ask more questions to get at my meaning rather than assume things
peak marsh
It's like saying programming isn't a skill because you're just memorizing code. Then why are there bad programs, we should all be able to program exactly the same
tepid wadi
Almost like communication itself is a skill.
tranquil cove
Almost like communication itself is a skill.
communication works both ways
you're listening right?
then you respond, its a process. to say 100% it's my responsibility to know how to explain what i mean is funny in a 2 way system.
peak marsh
Why aren't all musicians also composers? Composing is just memorizing notes and writing them down 🤷♂️
tranquil cove
games are designed to be easy and their mechanics to be understood immediately. so i would say these things are less skills than having good aim which is what really gets you a kill even if you fail at planning.
someone with good aim will kill you if you have bad aim and all the planning of batman
tepid wadi
then you respond, its a process. to say 100% it's my responsibility to know how ...
Yeah, I mean what it sounds like though is that you're doing the bare minimum and expecting others to pick up the slack. If you're using generally understood terms in ways that arent normal, no one is going to try and clarify what you mean, they're just going to assume you lack basic knowledge and move on.
If you want people to understand and relate to your ideas, its your job to find a way to communicate with them in a way THEY understand.
They have to WANT to know more to ask those clarifying questions. And they wont do that if they dont understand your basic premise.
tranquil cove
Yeah, I mean what it sounds like though is that you're doing the bare minimum an...
its a texting app, i dont have time for that, people can ask more questions instead of assume meaning, maybe take my words literally. what specifically is hard to understand in what i wrote anyway?
tepid wadi
We ARE taking them literally, but you're using words in ways that dont make sense. Thats the while point
tranquil cove
Valourant reduces planning to what he views as an intellectual exercise—something anyone can do. His point seems to be that anyone can learn a map or understand the strategy if they put in enough time or effort, which is why he sees planning as not being skillful.
For Valourant, planning is an intellectual task—something that can be easily understood by anyone, not something that requires specific expertise or repetition to master. He draws a distinction between mental exercises (like knowing the best strategy) and physical skill (like performing a task well in real-time).He seems to be saying that knowledge—like knowing where to position yourself or what moves to make—isn’t hard to gain. What matters more is being able to execute well in the moment—which is why he calls things like aiming or reaction time more indicative of skill.
it really isn't have you not seem a gameplay video for 1 hour and basically knew everything?
is it only me who does that or something.
peak marsh
I'm sure you think you do xD
tepid wadi
Knowledge doesnt equal action. You can learn those things sure, but can you apply them to whatever game?
tranquil cove
Knowledge doesnt equal action. You can learn those things sure, but can you appl...
i already explained this
peak marsh
Ever hear of the Dunning-Krueger effect? xD
tranquil cove
do you guys just want to repeat things and be redundant? like if you dont wont address directly what i wrote about it before why even repeat the sentence i already replied to.
tranquil cove
Knowledge doesnt equal action. You can learn those things sure, but can you appl...
i already made a reply to this before.
you just repeated something i replied to, without addressing my reply to it
so ignoring all my points. lovely.
yet i'm the problem in conversations?
tepid wadi
I think what you're missing is that your "intellectual exercise" is meaningless, no one else has ever been talking about that.
The application of tactical knowledge is the skill
tranquil cove
can you recall what my reply to that was
no point communcating further if you cant say my own points back to me
tepid wadi
Yeah, "I dont think it is"
tranquil cove
nope.
tepid wadi
Sounds like you didnt do a good job communicating your point, then.
tranquil cove
i did, you did a bad job of reading or trying to understand
tepid wadi
Lol okay
tranquil cove
i spoke about tetris and rubix cubes
reply to that, dont give me the reply to which i responded with tetris and rubix cubes.
"Knowledge doesnt equal action. You can learn those things sure, but can you apply them to whatever game?"
this deals with execution, i spoke about execution already
you're bringing it up in a way that forces me to remake points, and waste my time
He calls attention to the fact that Zerax is repeating things he has already responded to, specifically about execution, without engaging with his explanations of Tetris or Rubik's cubes, which Valourant used to demonstrate his point about execution vs. intellectual exercise.
eve online doesn't have the same execution that tetris or rubix cubes have.
tepid wadi
Yes it does. 100%
tranquil cove
maybe if you scale up to 1 vs 20, but in a 1 v 1 "pvp" battle. no.
tepid wadi
It does though. You choose your ship's direction and velocity, you choose what modules to activate and when. You examine your defenses and offenses to make decisions that can change the outcome of a battle.
Its much more like chess than tetris, but the comparison is still there.
tranquil cove
yeah but this isn't real time finger dexterity, an actual skill you need to train with your fingers, while using brain at super fast speeds, much faster than any planning phase in eve online... you need to solve a rubix cube in 8 seconds, or get a tetris piece in the right spot in under 1 second.
peak marsh
Yeah but chess isn't skill it's just memorizing how the pieces move
tranquil cove
i never saw chess as a skill, i saw it as a game 😆
tepid wadi
It totally can be though. If you let a module run for too long or activate it a few seconds too late, it can ruin the battle for you.
tranquil cove
you can be skilled in chess
tepid wadi
High level EvE pvp is incredibly time sensitive.
tranquil cove
chess is more indepth than eve online
tepid wadi
Maybe, but that's not the argument.
tranquil cove
in a PVP game you know all the parameters, in an RTS game you're disadvantaged by what unit they bring. i imagine eve online is the same as an RTS, show up with the wrong module and you're basically guaranteed a loss if you engage the enemy because they have a module that counters yours better. maybe it has slightly more range, and they keep you out of range of them, but in range of their guns.
tepid wadi
In a RTS game you know all the parameters as well. You know what race they're playing and what types of potential units they can bring. Part of the skill in the game is scouting for information so you can better prepare for whatever specific unit compositions they decide to bring.
tranquil cove
In a RTS game you know all the parameters as well. You know what race they're pl...
and still there is an element of luck in that
tepid wadi
Not really, everyone has the same set capabilities and potential outcomes.
You can make wrong choices, but there's very little luck in high level play
tranquil cove
if you cant win at a disadvantage i would argue the game is not as skill based as it could be.
skill is supposed to close the gap when you're at a disadvantage, basically.
tepid wadi
Yeah, and I bet you or I couldn't beat a starcraft pro even if we started with a massive advantage
Maybe not "as skill based as it could be", but certainly requires significant skill, and allows for plenty of skill expression
tranquil cove
He seems to feel that if a game is too deterministic (where certain factors like having the wrong module or unit composition guarantee a loss), it diminishes the importance of skill.
In this case, Valourant is arguing that games that have deterministic outcomes (i.e., where the wrong decisions are always punished with no chance for skill to influence the result) aren’t as skill-based as they could be. Skill should be able to overcome a disadvantage, not just become irrelevant when you're at a disadvantage.
if something is deterministic, it removes your autonomy, so how can skill be factored in at all?
you might as well autoplay your loss after you make 1 bad planning decision.
tepid wadi
Sure, and that happens in EvE all the time. But that doesn't make it a game that requires no skill. It's almost like having knowledge adds to your ability to express your skills.
You can certainly be outgunned, or ambushed, or whatever, but that doesn't mean the PvP doesn't require skill.
If everyone's always on an even playing field all the time, things get real boring.
All good PvP games have situations that can lead to advantages and disadvantages and stacking those in your favor is what creates the outcome you want
peak marsh
https://youtu.be/bexWuHmV32A?t=13 -Also, just to the point of RTS not requiring physical muscle memory or dexterity xD
tepid wadi
Yeah, high APM RTS games are insane
tranquil cove
In this scenario, skill becomes irrelevant because the system doesn’t give you the flexibility to outplay your mistakes or adapt in a meaningful way. Essentially, it could feel like you’re on autopilot after making one mistake, which would diminish the feeling of skill or personal agency.
i think we define skill differently
and value different things as skill
tepid wadi
I mean, obviously. You keep trying to express that things that are normally understood as "skilled" aren't skill. Which means you clearly mean something else than what everyone else understands.
That's why we discussed communication.
tranquil cove
most "pro" players take every advantage to win, and consider themselves skilled. i dont do that in games. i seek disadvantage, and against the odds scenarios and try to win — if i win. i know the game embraces skill based gameplay more.
if i stack my deck to win, it's not really skill
peak marsh
I mean, pro doesn't need the quotation marks. He plays for a South Korean Starcraft league, he's literally paid to play the game. An actual by definition pro player
tranquil cove
it's just winning, if know i will win, if i set it up to win, and stack the odds in favour to win, if i always do that in eve, people will say im a good player. but i'm just good at avoiding risk.
tepid wadi
Let me know when you post a soul-level 1 dark souls run, I'll watch it.
The ultimate disadvantage
But what you're describing doesn't really mean a game allows for more skill. I'd argue that if someone that has a massive disadvantage in a PvP game can still win (against higher skilled players), the game actually embraces chance more than skill. It means that any advantages you can get are actually meaningless in the face of skill.
Or it's just poor matchmaking, I guess
tranquil cove
yeah but this point im making points to why i dont value planning, i can plan well, know the tactics, and i think this is through intellect in real life, and experience in the game. all humans are capable of this intellect unless you're a savant level genius (in which case there is an actual difference). so i dont see it as a skill. so it comes to experience in the game.. and if i get that experience and plan well? what suddenly im good at the game? no. i'm just avoiding risk and stacking the odds in my favour to win. but skill to me is managing against the odds and still coming out on top. if a game isn't physically designed to allow this, then it's not really a skill based game.
tepid wadi
You're assuming that people are all on the same cognitive level except super geniuses, which just isn't true.
tranquil cove
im assuming people can see the obvious, and games are designed to show them how to win, guides are written etc. i am basically minimizing this aspect of gaming lol
tepid wadi
Example: I've been playing a lot of deadlock with some friends. I have THOUSANDS of hours in League of Legends, which gives me a significantly better understanding of MOBA mechanics than they have. In turn, I'm a lot better at Deadlock because of those fundamental understandings than they are, even though one of them is a tournament-class CS player.
tranquil cove
people can even pull up the code of the game and see the values, and exploit things based on values now.
tepid wadi
Yeah, they COULD have all the same knowledge, but they don't, so they can't make as good of tactical decisions as I can. Hence, tactics and knowledge lend to skill.
tranquil cove
and as a none programmer i can find all that info and improve in 1 hour
Experience and planning are part of the game’s system, but that’s more about playing optimally, not demonstrating skill.
Skill is about reaction, adaptability, and overcoming setbacks—being able to find a way out of tough situations when the odds are stacked against you.
you're basically saying knowing how to play chess is a skill
tepid wadi
Posting ChatGPT responses lends no validity to your claims. Tactics and planning are a skill
tranquil cove
vs, actually playing chess
tepid wadi
No, I'm saying that application of knowledge is a skill.
timber prism
I mean, obviously. You keep trying to express that things that are normally unde...
Let me define what a word means and say anything that isnt that means its that for everyone
Literal npc behavior
tranquil cove
Verdict: Valourant’s position on execution under pressure being the core of skill holds more weight, because execution in the moment is what separates high-skill players from those who just know the theory.
Verdict: Zerax’s point is more relevant here because chess—and games in general—require a balance of knowledge and execution to demonstrate skill. So the idea of applying your knowledge effectively in real-time is key, even if Valourant’s distinction of chess being about "memorization" is oversimplifying.
Verdict: Valourant’s perspective holds more weight in this context, because true skill is shown when you can overcome adversity. Simply avoiding risk doesn’t test your ability to adapt or execute under pressure.
Verdict: Valourant is more accurate in this case, as a deterministic game removes autonomy and can minimize opportunities for demonstrating skill, especially in situations where one bad move ends everything.
Verdict: Valourant’s argument holds more weight in terms of how skill needs to be demonstrated in adverse circumstances, as experience alone doesn’t show the full depth of a player’s abilities.
timber prism
😂
sweet patrol
WOW
tranquil cove
"Knowledge forms the foundation for developing skills. It provides the necessary understanding and information required to perform tasks effectively."
they are distinct things, knowledge and skill
"While knowledge and skills are distinct, they are interconnected and complement each other. "
peak marsh
Skill is the practical application of knowledge
tranquil cove
this is why i reject all knowledge based things as being a skill
we're all capable of getting the knowledge of how to play a game good
sweet patrol
we're all capable of getting the knowledge of how to play a game good
play a game WELL
timber prism
Look at the NPC stray further and further away from the actual conversation
peak marsh
https://oreed.org/en/article/skill-vs-knowledge-understanding-the-differences-an...
From your own article
tranquil cove
From your own article
yes an infant can't win in eve online, they have no knowledge at all
i think the problem is you place too much discrimination on knowledge, we live in a society where everything thinks they are smarter than anyone else
timber prism
😂
tranquil cove
whereas my perspective is that we're all equally capable of knolwedge in a video game, and it doesn't differentiate people that much.
unless we have a super genius or an infant
knowledge of how to win a video game is not the same level as building a rocket and flying to the moon, or quantum mechanics.
peak marsh
Again, skill is how you apply the knowledge, not simply having it
And there's no reason to conflate playing a game with rocket science xD
tranquil cove
and again if you watch a few videos you will gain the knowledge of how to apply the knowledge.
the finger dexterity required to excute the knowledge is not hard to learn in eve online
compared to tetris, or rubix cube
peak marsh
Right, but then you have to do it on a level
vague galleon
guys. stop feeding the troll.
peak marsh
I can watch 1,000 videos on how to build a rocket, to borrow your example, it doesn't mean I just need a few cracks at it to be skilled
tranquil cove
i just dont agree with the idea that "i am skilled because im super smart, smarter than everyone i beat at the game, my planning was better, or whatever" when it's usually just time investment and desire to be good that is the real difference. in fact that person might actually be not as smart as other people.. i still think conflating knowledge with skill isn't skill.
tepid wadi
Yeah, I mean the fact that you don't consider planning to be a skilled activity is certainly core to your argument.
tranquil cove
Yeah, I mean the fact that you don't consider planning to be a skilled activity ...
in an RTS two people are equally knowledgeable and skilled, but one person wins because they did everything 10 seconds faster. it really undercuts the argument. one would argue the guy who won by 10 seconds is more skilled. i would argue they are equally skilled still.
tepid wadi
Good luck finding two people who are equally knowledgeable and skilled 👍
But even your point isn't correct. The one who WINS is clearly more skilled. Especially if they're able to do it repeatedly
A single data point does not a comparative analysis make.
But there's literal championships for the most skilled Starcraft players. And higher skilled players often also have more knowledge.
There is an objectively best starcraft player, you can probably google who it is
Competitive (e)sports exist for a reason, and it's to find who is the best. You can't argue that the top 5 people are the same level of skill because they are actually ranked
tranquil cove
if skill is about consistency, then they should play against each other every day and we should see their rankings change daily, the number 1 guy will be number 5 tomorrow.
tepid wadi
They do, actually. Not daily, but regularly. Look, I googled it: https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/634855-greatest-players-of-all-time-2025-update
tranquil cove
if you're just taking the snapshot in time at a tournament that happens once a month sure
tepid wadi
Literally #1 and #2 swapped
tepid wadi
Maybe, maybe not
tepid wadi
We don't know for sure. But the point is there is a significant difference in skill in general, and the game allows for skill expression. There's a reason that Starcraft is still one of the premier PvP games in the RTS genre.
peak marsh
I mean you can say the person who won is more skilled, because skill isn't something you have it's something you demonstrate
tepid wadi
Arguing that it's not a skilled game for whatever reason is simply wrong. Unless you define "skill" different than... everyone else
peak marsh
Skill involves doing the thing at a high level
tranquil cove
I mean you can say the person who won is more skilled, because skill isn't somet...
this is a good point
does my "planning" make me skilled in rimworld?
i dont think so, i dont feel skilled
i feel like literally anyone can do this
or what it only becomes skilled when the knowledge contributes to a pvp win against someone else?
tepid wadi
If your colony is successful then yes, I'd say there's some skill to it
It's not the same sort of skill as competitive PvP, obviously, but there's some skill to it
tranquil cove
but its skill that lets say 90%+ of people have if they stick with the game
i feel like i make bigger distinctions between knowledge, experience, and skill
first time playing rimworld and you read nothing and have zero knowledge before hand, can you make this same colony? then maybe thats skill?
compared to experience, playing rimworld for many years
tepid wadi
Experience generally gives you skill, yes
But also, Rimworld may not be a high skilled game 🤷♀️
Not every skill amount of equal across all games and genres and stuff.
I wouldn't compare a Starcraft Pro to a Rimworld player, because they're just... different. Very apples to oranges.
timber prism
But also, Rimworld may not be a high skilled game 🤷♀️
There are definitely games of various skill ceilings yeah
tepid wadi
Yeah, skill ceilings and floors are a very interesting discussion in game design in general.
timber prism
You can watch a hundred tutorials and gameplay videos on starcraft and never be able to execute that knowledge at the same degree regardless if you play for two decades
tepid wadi
Also to link it to MMOs (like I always do), you want some aspects of gameplay to have a low skill requirement, but other aspects to have a high skill requirement.
timber prism
Saying RTS isnt a skill is just insane
I think fighters are excellent examples as well
You can have all the knowledge of frame data and still lose to someone who doesnt take any of that into account
peak marsh
Also to link it to MMOs (like I always do), you want some aspects of gameplay to...
Sure. The difference between grinding mobs or running a high level dungeon or raid. One takes significantly more skill than the other even though the basic action (killing mobs) is similar
sweet patrol
Fighting games are an amazing example of raw skil and intuition being able to beat out decades of knowledge
timber prism
Also to link it to MMOs (like I always do), you want some aspects of gameplay to...
I think Age of Conan balanced this well
Still my favorite combat to date
tepid wadi
I only played a bit of AOC, I liked the directional combat. For a tab-target style combat system it was cool
timber prism
The skill ceiling was crazy
tepid wadi
I never did any PvP because the people I was playing with quit, unfortunately
timber prism
Like on top of inputs for combos etc you also had to manage shield directions
vague galleon
God this is giving flaahbacks to the bill clinton scandal.
"it all depends on what your definition of is is."
timber prism
And I think it was the first mmo where you could hit down twice to dodge backwards to land on your feet to cancel out a knock down CC
timber prism
I never did any PvP because the people I was playing with quit, unfortunately
We had a dueling pit to train haha
I was able to 3v1 in lower gear and lower levels since I was able to figure out classes pretty well
tepid wadi
Yeah it seemed cool, I just never got that far.
If I recall, their guild city system was super cool, but I never got to really experience it
timber prism
oh definitely
you claimed a keep and had to build it up and would have sieges to take over them
also fatalities! XD
timber prism
Fighting games are an amazing example of raw skil and intuition being able to be...
100%
tepid wadi
Ooo
timber prism
it was hard for the game to hold my attention
i do hope it does well though bc fantasy style warframe does sound fun on paper
that's awesome they are allowing people to just play now
peak marsh
Only if you sign up this weekend apparently. It's part of some tencent-fest
vague galleon
tencent.........😒
peak marsh
Eh, at this point we kind of have to come to terms with the fact that they own a 40% stake in the universe
But tbf not everything they're involved in automatically becomes evil. The own stakes in both FromSoft and Digital Extremes (Warframe) and both have been objectively player friendly
tepid wadi
Yeah, I think they own most of GGG as well. They do a lot of broad investing, which seems to be a really effective strategy.
tepid wadi
From everything I've heard, they're pretty hands off. They probably realized that they should let creative people do the creative things and not mess with them.
Maybe one day western megacorps will learn that lessson
vague galleon
im pretty sure it was Tencent who killed Runic Games and I will forever be angry about that.
tranquil cove
this is a game right? it's pretty funny https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Cc_NOAjqHxI
sweet patrol
Considering the number of hours I have in warframe I think I will give soulframe a try
tepid wadi
Warframe never really captured me, but soulframe definitely looks interesting
vague galleon
ya, me neither, decent enough game but really didnt draw me in.
tranquil cove
warframe is good it's just limited by it's design, the concept is good
like when you make a game in 2013, the engine was designed to only do so much back then and the game itself is aged.
but despite that warframe has flying ships/space battles, mechs that you pilot, wing suit battles in space etc.
3 different battle types using different equipment, your railship, your wingsuit, and your mech and it has giant boss battles
it also has a ton of grind
sweet patrol
But I do so love the grind. Warframe is one that is near and dear to me. And has aged like a fine wine I might add.
vague galleon
grind is nothing but a waste of my time. repitition gets old.
i dont need to unlock everything instantly but a lot of it is clearly just meant to soke up my time.
timber prism
really wanted to like Corepunk but it was such a chore to play
weapons aside
the out of combat regen is huge tho
that was like the worst thing ever
neat fern
Hey everyone! We’re a small indie team working really hard on this game. If you have a moment, please take a look of it, add it into your wishlist — it really helps us a lot!
Thank you so much!
https://store.steampowered.com/app/3755930/The_Severed_Gods/
untold lynx
Hey everyone! We’re a small indie team working really hard on this game. If you ...
while I sympathize with the grind of a small team, could you please read and respect the rules?
No spam or self-promotion (server invites, advertisements, soliciting, etc) without permission from a staff member. This includes DMing fellow members. You can self-promo in the self-promo channel, but only if you also participate elsewhere! (this server isn't a billboard!)
tranquil cove
what if your name is bill and you are bored?
untold lynx
in that case you'd be a person, and not a Discord server 
peak marsh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU7KdRP_9IU -Surely it can't be because the game wasn't that good. It's the fans fault
tepid wadi
I feel like the reviews I saw said "Yep another Ubisoft sandbox, this time with a star wars skin"
peak marsh
Pretty much. Like all accounts I've seen say it wasn't like bad, it was just kind of unremarkable
tepid wadi
Yeah, exactly
peak marsh
But no, it's the Star Wars fans fault for not being interested enough in Star Wars xD
tepid wadi
IDK, Jedi Survivor did pretty well, despite performance issues at launch
peak marsh
Plus you have Battlefront 2 hitting record player numbers
tepid wadi
I mean hey games aren't bad because they're old
vague galleon
NGL, it hasnt aged well.
XD
back in the day, that game rocked.
but playing it again..............>_>
tepid wadi
Maybe that says more about the quality of modern Star Wars offerings than it does about the quality of that game
tepid wadi
My buddies and I got the Master Chief collection when it was on sale for like $5 with the intent to play through it all on legendary
tepid wadi
Halo was the game that made my dad give up. Originally he didn't want to get it for us because of the violence, but we convinced him it was just shooting aliens. Then like... a few hours in he saw us playing versus and we saw the defeat in his eyes 🤣
vague galleon
halo is so good.
ive never owned an xbox though
closest I came was playing halo 3 and reach on my brother's 360 back when i moved in with him.
good times.
tepid wadi
ODST was actually one of my favorites
vague galleon
i got mixed feelings on that one but ya it was good.
timber prism
really? people still play that old PS2 game?
Its the newer battlefront with the same name not the old one
vague galleon
i know. but there was a joke to be made and I made it.
vague galleon
darn right.
peak marsh
Is hat a bowgun? xD
timber prism
Gunlance
peak marsh
Even better xD
tepid wadi
I think Wildgate is gonna suffer from a "noobs get owned" problem. We played in the beta weekend and started like 3 hours after it began and we got absolutely shitcanned in every game we played. Definitely didn't make me want to keep playing.
I can't imagine getting matched up against teams that have been playing for weeks or months when trying to learn the game.
peak marsh
I mean, it can work, Guns of Icarus did pretty well after a large new player infusion but the mechanics have to be compelling enough to make you want to learn from the losses, and if it's bad enough that you feel like you aren't learning anything because of the severity of said shitcanning, they won't stick around
tepid wadi
Yeah, I only know that we got owned hard enough that we didn't really learn anything from our losses 😝
peak marsh
Yeah, see that will chase out new players pretty fast. They need to have some kind of system where if you're below a certain level or number of kills/wins etc, you get paired up with other low level players
Otherwise you have the CoD problem where new players feel like they're getting knifed from behind without knowing what's going on every 5 seconds
tranquil cove
https://youtu.be/lDcX7Kf_gTg?si=wUsR3OY1K2pmTVEO
wild gate is basically a whole game based on warframe game mode with the rail ship
warframe does it better, and it's a section of their game lol
at least im pretty sure this is the game i was talking about before where warframe does the same thing, unless that was another game. i can't find my message.
tepid wadi
There's another game with a similar concept but PvE called Jump Ship
tranquil cove
oh yeah jump ship is the one sorry
warframe does it better than jumpship, this game looks like it has more gameplay, and reminds me of fortnite.
tepid wadi
We'll see how it gets received. I'm certainly curious but it's really going to depend on their balancing. In the beta it was easy to (un)luck into bad loot and just... lose.
And some of the characters seemed really overpowered.
tranquil cove
And some of the characters seemed *really* overpowered.
for which one, wild gate?
tepid wadi
Wildgate, I haven't played Jump Ship
But TBH I like the aesthetic of Jump Ship more. More hard sci-fi than cartoony
timber prism
We'll see how it gets received. I'm certainly curious but it's really going to d...
Balancing was all over the place during different beta phases
There are definitely certain builds that work better than others
And certain strategies were really good vs new players
peak marsh
Gotta say, Soulframe is pretty good so far
vague galleon
is it a new game from warframe company?
vague galleon
its not the same grindy stuff is it?
tranquil cove
I downloaded it, but haven't fired it up yet
its free?
tepid wadi
It's in a beta, I think you had to download it this weekend or something
tranquil cove
might have been good news to post instead of 500 lines covering that up talking about it 😆 the discussions of the thread end up hiding things.
it's not on steam anyway
peak marsh
Yeah they had a open beta signup weekend
peak marsh
its not the same grindy stuff is it?
Doesn't feel grindy so far. Really atmospheric and decent combat from what I've seen so far
I'm still fairly early in, I did the signup over the weekend but just downloaded today, so far I'm about 3-ish hours in, killed my first boss and opened up the first player hub
peak marsh
might have been good news to post instead of 500 lines covering that up talking ...
#other-games message -I did post it, and there were only a handful of lines for the rest of that day before you posted/had a chance to see it 🤷♂️
You can still sign up and get a chance for an invite, they just aren't doing open signups any more
tranquil cove
ahh it's okay
its not on steam anyway?
i don't really feel like doing another alpha/beta for a game, only to have to repeat everything on launch.
peak marsh
No, not on Steam for now, which kind of irks me but at least the launcher is light weight and unobtrustive
peak marsh
I downloaded it, but haven't fired it up yet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDPU52ifkxk - I recommend this video at some point early on, the game is very open meaning it doesn't do a whole lot to explain itself and it's systems. Kind of shares a trait with Warframe in that regard
tepid wadi
I usually like to figure stuff out, but I'll definitely hit it if I have problems
peak marsh
Yeah, same, but there are a few things that had me a little puzzled as far as some of the systems they have
