references♥_1450-1470

[ebon nimbus]

The red is like prayer guides i think ?? That and bookmarks and the like

[ebon nimbus]

THIS IS IMPORTANT TOO, I FORGOT ABOUT THIS!!!

“Gelegenheitsgebete auf Pergament. Alte ital. Handschrift wohl Ende des 14. Jahrhunderts. Geschrieben von Menachem b. Izac. Mit Initial-Verzierungen 69 Bl. 16°. Lederbd.”

“Occasional prayers on parchment. Old Italian handwriting, probably from the end of the 14th century. Written by Menachem, son of Isaac. With decorated initials. 69 leaves. 16mo format. Leather binding.”

[ebon nimbus]

This german guy dates it as 14th century but that’s been contested by the archivists within our university and we have it officially logged as 1400s era.

[restive geyser]

This is part of the Jewish ethnic group labeled as the Italkim, not part of my ethnic group (Ashkenazi, Germanic in Origin) or the Sephardic (Spanish in origin) Italkim is the oldest clan\family of enthic jewish people dating back to Ancient rome.

This is pretty interesting, as Italkim isn't as documented compared to Ashkenazi and isn't as broad as Sephardic

And it should be noted, there a chance this isn't fully hebrew

But rather a mix between multiple languages as not every ethnic group spoke pure hebrew

[ebon nimbus]

Translating this has been pretty tuff

Still workin on it doe

I’ve got way more photos of the pages, but I also don’t wanna spam the chat

[restive geyser]

Send a few

[restive geyser]

It's not actually purely hebrew

It's Judeo-italian

[white fulcrum]

very cool!!

[pliant sluice]

italian sub

sounds good right about now '

[restive geyser]

Italian Submarine

[latent drift]

[terse smelt]

w schlag

[coral path]

its him

[terse smelt]

the man the myth

[terse smelt]

so tuff

[bleak ore]

🥹IT'S BEAUTIFUL!!!

[bleak ore]

Anyone else not able to attach photos in this specific server?

[vocal vale]

you don’t have image permissions yet

[bleak ore]

Well it's weird because I've posted images in the past and now I can't

[restive geyser]

Idk if rali updated on the book yet

But

The book is a super rare example of Italkim

And it's likely in Judeo-italian

Making it incredibly rare

With only two known remaining examples found in oxford and another college

[bright token]

Hi guys i forgot what does Italianate mean in context of 15th century armour styles?

[tight umbra]

Its characterized by rounded, heavy and asymmetrical plates

Something like that

Milanese armor

[bright token]

Oh ok thank you Kingsman

[tight umbra]

No problem

[bright token]

Is the cuirass the only part that can be considered italianate here?

armour made by Jeffrey D Wasson

[tight umbra]

Yeah seems like it

[bright token]

Im fond of this armour style

[tight umbra]

Isnt as aggressive looking as all other armor parts

[bright token]

If I was a knight I'd have wear something like this but with fluted cuirass hehe

[vague kernel]

that looks awesome i want one now

[tight umbra]

fluted greaves would also be pretty cool

but they were pretty rare afaik

and fluted cuisses

[bright token]

I love demi-greaves with lily flower, I think i saw it on Italian armour made for French market

[tight umbra]

demi greaves are half greaves?

[bright token]

I might use the wrong term for the lowest part of the poleyn

the one that overlap the greaves

the area i circle

[tight umbra]

idk how thats called but its probably not demi greaves

[thorny otter]

I typically see it called demi greaves 😄

But like...the whole nomenclature is a mess, especially when it comes to regional styles

[lone osprey]

goll and royal armouries just calls it the lower plate of the poleyn

the term demi-greaves appears to be some invention associated with greaves that dont cover the whole lower leg e.g. Oakshott and this second one referred to as demi-greaves by Nickolas Dupras

[lone osprey]

so what he said

[bright token]

Thank you for clearing my confusion 🙏

[vocal vale]

the entire harness is italianate, just decorated for english tastes and by proxy export

[bright token]

Thought its for french/burgundian customer too lol

[vocal vale]

i believe the period term is haute-greave

[bright token]

Got it

[vocal vale]

the amount of fluting makes me think it’s english but iirc the french were very fond of the onion sallets

[bleak ore]

How do I get image permission?

[fleet junco]

talk

[bleak ore]

Really? You just have to interact with the server enough?

[restive geyser]

Yes

[restive geyser]

Onion sallet is the ugliest thing ever, but I want it ingame

[bleak ore]

cool thank you

[coral path]

what

[restive geyser]

The helmet, is it of era or nah?

[coral path]

well yeah but its badass

it was fact checked

[restive geyser]

I think it's ugly af

@ebon nimbus when will you update on the Italkim book

Or get one

[restive geyser]

Oh yeah, get this

Rali college has a Italkim book

Already super rare

And it could potentially be in Judeo-italian

Which will make it even rarer

[coral path]

I think I saw it already

[restive geyser]

She waiting for the archivest

[coral path]

this one?

[restive geyser]

Yes

I explained a bit of why it's rare

It's one of the Ethnic families that isn't too well documented

[ebon nimbus]

They’re not open until monday, so I’m gonna have to talk to them then

[restive geyser]

Darn

I have

Actually documents in my ethnic family that I should dig through

[coral path]

idk if I have any of my russian side for documents

[restive geyser]

If you are part of a Ethnic family, you can search by surname

And find basically everything

[golden ingot]

Any physical examples of the plumed helm?

[fleet junco]

gilded skullcap

[muted ivy]

Kastenbrust and war hat.

[bleak ore]

Exquisite

[fleet junco]

the shiesty

[golden ingot]

Top left plumed?

[tight umbra]

very realistic loadout for poorer people

people like full knight suits but i honestly like the lesser equiped soldiers

[muted ivy]

Yeah, that’s what I sell - munition kit.

[vocal vale]

nope but loads in other artwork

there’s also a visor originally attributed to a sallet which i think may fit one

[golden ingot]

It looks very uncanny to everything I’m used to seeing, but in a good way

Can you send the sources of the artwork with the same helmet?

If you have em

[vocal vale]

#1467989546229825750 and https://discord.com/channels/1043854763189600337/1467995931801813102

[vocal vale]

https://royalarmouries.org/collection/object/object-496

[slate mulch]

ts kinda heat

[terse bronze]

Approximately 56 degrees so yeah hella heat!!!

[slate mulch]

fuck my stupid chud life

[terse bronze]

why so negative

[coral path]

Musée de l’Armée. Ca.1450(?)

Museo Luigi Marzoli-Brescia 1450-1470

[slate mulch]

just upset today idk

[coral path]

actually thought someone was standing in that

Rouen. Municipal Library, Ms. 1139 Ca.1470-1480

[muted ivy]

The gauntlets look Italio-Flemish.

[coral path]

I mean, it is based off of an english effigy

[coral path]

holy drunkards

[livid swallow]

frog mouth? pog

[muted ivy]

So yes.

[golden ingot]

Another one from the same painting btw

[royal wave]

What did this white cross on hosen mean? I've seen it multiple times already, can't wrap my head around it.

[light nova]

Could just be looks

And/or signifier

[spark latch]

https://medal.tv/fr/games/half-sword/clips/mrUWG16C4cBHLaNUD?invite=cr-MSxDRTIsMjY3Mjg3NzA2&v=18

[idle valley]

swiss symbol, used by swiss mercs as an identifier

[bleak ore]

Are they planning to add brigs to the game?

[tight umbra]

I hope so

[bleak ore]

It would be a missed opportunity to not

[terse bronze]

i believe it has been confirmed that they would

wouldnt make sense not to put them in anyway

[bleak ore]

that's good to hear

[chrome rover]

nuh uh

[tight umbra]

website says its 1470

wait shit

im BLIND

[chrome rover]

1570? :P

[tight umbra]

i read the 5 as a 4

[chrome rover]

goober

[tight umbra]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1113462309776531456/1465746240741572639/togif.gif

[bleak ore]

Cird

[coral path]

they've hinted at it

[bleak ore]

Good

[coral path]

Sculpture by Andreas Paul Muscat

[coral path]

forwarded mine cuz lazy

peak

[rigid gull]

Armet

[coral path]

could go for a pain au chocolat rn

[terse bronze]

same af

no bakeries in my village doe

[coral path]

they dont make em here like they do the time I went to europe

[terse bronze]

Also depends where you went ngl

i tried a pain au chocolat in italy and it was like

so different from the one I have here in france

like

basically not even the same product

[coral path]

interesting

[terse bronze]

same with croissants

[coral path]

idk germany was pretty decent ngl

[terse bronze]

I can believe that

[coral path]

bavaria lmao

[terse bronze]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1473100677323428050/1473107168327766026/200_6.gif

I will resist te urge to go ballistic about english speakers calling pain au chocolat "chocolate croissants"

[coral path]

lmfaooooo

[rigid gull]

Bro

[terse bronze]

?

[rigid gull]

Rampage

[terse bronze]

true

[rigid gull]

No mercy

[bleak ore]

I feel the same way when my fellow Texans call a Klobásník a Koláče

[agile kindle]

as a united statesian, when people refer to all kinds of sodas as "coke"

[bleak ore]

Yeah I know a lot of those people namely my family

[earnest mango]

wdy call a 'le fishe au chocolat' in English

[fleet junco]

chocolate fish

[terse bronze]

not an uniteded unasians but i agree

[terse bronze]

uh?

[quaint shore]

i do not think he said le fishe au chocolat

I think he said Pain Au Chocolat

[slate mulch]

now im wondering if anyone made these pauldrons

[coral path]

I think its heroic

[bleak ore]

I want those in the game

[quaint shore]

We love rondels

[tight umbra]

I love these

Seen them before

[sterile crane]

What is the rondel for

[terse bronze]

added protection

[sterile crane]

Yeah but idk, feels kinda odd to just have that sticking there

It is interesting definitely

[candid rapids]

would you rather get hit on your gauntleted wrist or on your gauntleted wrist with a rondel to take the majority of the blow

[sterile crane]

No no i get that its a reinforcement, but i tought it would be more shaped to the gauntlet, but i guess its also easier to just have disk there

And its for tourney too from the description

[lone osprey]

pretty much just like the rondels on the back of armets tbh

inb4 men covered in rondels

[terse bronze]

homo sapiens rondelus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyOuM-xVvOI&pp=ygURdGhlIGJvZHkgaXMgcm91bmQ%3D

[lone topaz]

rondelman is the hero we need

[slate mulch]

this server needs a hero

[robust tendon]

john rondel

[light nova]

Rondel Sword demo when

[coral path]

(met, 29.158.241)

mb

surprised you knew about this one, first time for me tbh

have you been to the museum?

@tight umbra

holy boss

[slate mulch]

i like that the horses brow plate got included

[robust tendon]

those are called shaffrons btw

[slate mulch]

Neat, will probably forget by tommorow

[coral path]

lmfaooo

happens

[coral path]

Duke Gerhard II of Jülich and Berg, d. 1475.

[sterile crane]

Will we have those inner guards that are present in this harness? Idk if they were mentioned in the past

In the insides of the elbows there

[idle valley]

this looks like a display failure

[sterile crane]

I was wondering that, there wasnt much text on the description of the display.

But are those plate things on the elbow also a mistake?

[lone osprey]

they're part of poldermittons for jousting
#references♥_1450-1470 message
they're mistaken if whoever composed the harness thought they were for other forms of combat which appears to be the case

[sterile crane]

Interesting

Yeah then it really looks like a mistake

[coral path]

I wanna be able to wear this rerebrace alone

[coral path]

adarga maxxing

[bright token]

I love this style of fluting! it was pretty popular in France, England and Burgundy wasn't it?

What's the thing on this man's leg called?

the large metal plate thingy

[lone osprey]

streiftartsche

[bright token]

thank you rudiblock 😄

[tight umbra]

I wonder how im gonna memorize armor names like this, i can barely pronounce it

[terse bronze]

translate it

memorize it in your native language and/or the second language you're speaking if you speak a second one

[lone osprey]

strife tart shuh

you could just call it a shield too lol

this is Matthias Goll's table of armour names

[lone osprey]

stepped right out of a swiss chronicle

[prisma raven]

Also in Spain, I'd say it was pretty popular in western Europe in general, except in Italy

[thorny otter]

I can hear this picture

[bright token]

Sweet!

[muted ivy]

WIP arm harness.

[chrome rover]

youre a baller

[muted ivy]

Thanks but it’s Crucible’s work.

[coral path]

Paris. National Library of France, Department of Manuscripts, Latin 9473. Ca.1445 - 1460

[silver heart]

example of a 'thigh shield' of maximilian i's from 1485.

[tight umbra]

What period is it from

Could it fit jnto 1475 or nah?

[lone osprey]

Love that resting guard
Wonder if thats st margaret - seen her with the dragon but not locked up lol

[lone osprey]

There are earlier and wooden examples
If devs ever manage to do cavalry it would be cool but not made for foot combat

[tight umbra]

Theres already a horse ingame so we can hope they make honse physics

We’re missing out on nice looking armor cause no cavalry

[livid swallow]

it should be true to the infantry combat that the horse legs would be so wobbly it would collapse if you made it take a step

[bright token]

How did knight wear thigh shield?

[silver heart]

i'd assume through the two red attachments seen tied to what i presume to be the hose/bottom half of the arming doublet? this is an entirely new piece of armor to me so i'm not as educated on the particulars of it as others may be.

[silver heart]

just looked further into these. appears they were attached to the saddle as opposed to the rider himself.

[bright token]

Thank you for the info Ser Brewvi!

[silver heart]

@bright token
https://www.peterfiner.com/artworks/item/5085

^^^
this goes into a good deal of detail regarding them.

[lone osprey]

it's interesting, the artist of the Babenberg family tree (first ones posted) went out of their way to depict them attached to the harnesses, while virtually every other source depicts them attached to the saddle. given their size the latter definitely makes more sense.

[lone osprey]

oh hey would you look at that the dilgen in the thun sketchbook look like the belts are back around the harness lol

perhaps both plausible then since both the streiftartschen and dilgen appear around harnesses and saddles ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[lone osprey]

i take it back -walther's tourney book makes that configuration look as though they could attached to each other (?) seems to be implied here since they're both knocked off (if still not depicted clearly)

[bright token]

found this guy on pinterest, really like his tonlet/fauld and tasset

[silver heart]

i seem to have lost the early close helm thread…

[tight umbra]

https://discord.com/channels/1043854763189600337/1467989546229825750

this one?

[silver heart]

thank you!

[coral path]

Thats dated to Approx 1500. (Die Chroniken des Wigand Gerstenberg von Frankenberg)

[bright token]

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/367070 found this from met museum, they said its from mid 15th century. 😄

It's cool that he has plate gorget ☺️

[tight umbra]

plate gorget is cool

[sharp crest]

I am planning to make a kettle helmet, but all the references is not really what I'm looking for. Something like this but from a manuscript or museum would be nice.

[thorny otter]

Maciejowski bible has quite a few similiar ones:)

[coral path]

This repro isn't 1450 material, I would recommend looking at what Samal said and looking at some 13th century extants and manuscripts.

[tight umbra]

the sabatons are quite short

[slate mulch]

other guy got j's on

[quaint shore]

other guys got that shit on hold on

[ancient pivot]

Pretty sure that's Ferdinand

[coral path]

yeah, unfortunately out of period

[quaint shore]

Fuuuck

What era?

or year

or sum

[vocal vale]

its like 1490

[quaint shore]

ah

figured

[tight umbra]

We need dlcs for later/earlier armor or different regions like ancient china or iranian armor tbh

Really cool sets of armor out of the games time period

[tight umbra]

thats so cool i've never seen that

whats it called

[static karma]

dueling shield bro

[cloud siren]

shittiest weapon in bloody bastards

[coral path]

out of period

[golden widget]

Aww man I thought this was 1459

Maybe I'm dislexic

[coral path]

The illustration is from the 16th century

hold on

[golden widget]

Ooh I have the wrong ones mb

[coral path]

More appropriate

[golden widget]

But yeah same idea

[coral path]

all good things

[tight umbra]

dueling shields are so cool omg how have i never known these exist

[silver heart]

‘Crucifixion’ by Martin Bernat (1480-1490)

[tight umbra]

i love the plume holder thingy

[fast pagoda]

No

[coral path]

❓

[fast pagoda]

Some scammer

[coral path]

Luxemburger

[coral path]

Rouen, BM, Ms Y 1

Paris. National Library of France, Department of Manuscripts, French 129

f. 85v, The Fall of Troy French 62 - Master of Dunois and collaborators - Paris (France) - 15th century (2nd quarter)

[tidal ermine]

Bros tiny

[quaint shore]

that is either a really young looking dude or a kid under that armor

not saying thats bad if its either cause hes living the dream out there

[candid rapids]

first time in skirmish

[livid swallow]

that a closed helm?or still considered an armet

[terse bronze]

Armet

[coral path]

Austria (Klausen, Tyrol)

[fleet junco]

who is klausen

[bleak ore]

I think it's a place

[tight umbra]

yes

[modern bridge]

Got to visit the Metropolitan Museum in NY.

[coral path]

[static karma]

subschreiber

[agile kindle]

this channel alone feels like an entirely separate haven from the rest of the server

like it's its own thing that just happens to exist in the same space as the rest of the half sword discord

[coral path]

there should be another server dedicated to this sortta stuff no?

[junior heart]

There should be

[gaunt radish]

I agree, it's so much more calm and just like a historical collectors channel. Pretty sweet considering how some other channels turn into giant messes all the time

[restive geyser]

There a lot of servers that are just about sending sources and such

But idk any for medieval stuff that aren't 20 locked channels

[coral path]

yeah Im in like 12 of those lmao

(thers a bunch that are dead)

[thorny otter]

Please dont create another

It's already tough for me to navigate as it is

[terse bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/yoda-there-is-another-star-wars-jedi-gif-5140031

(few know)

[robust tendon]

those whose nose

[vocal vale]

lmao

true

[cloud siren]

starting a new piece , any suggestions ?

its gonna be the same scratch art

[quaint shore]

I wonder, just a curious question
What does an articulating gorget look like with a visored sallet? Might be a stupid question but

[vocal vale]

i don’t understand what exactly you’re confused about

[quaint shore]

I dont know it just

feels weird to think about a sallet with a gorget

like, the necks protected but the face is exposed

[coral path]

mb

[quaint shore]

thank you

doesnt look as weird as i envisoned ngl

[coral path]

"This hand cannon consists of a one-piece barrel, with two courses of barrels, the breech being the one that extends over the barrel itself. It is mounted on a crude wooden stock, to which it was originally secured with clamps. The shape of the stock demonstrates how early portable firearms owed much to crossbows for the solution to certain construction problems. This is why they are characterized by such basic solutions as straight stocks, recessed barrel seats, and the clamps that are now lost. Ignition was achieved through a small hole in the breech, called the touchhole, but they lacked a lock or any other mechanism for this purpose." Ca.1450

[fleet junco]

cat

[cloud siren]

always loved early handgonnes 🔥🔥

[vocal vale]

1452 france

@lone osprey polder mitton in the wild

[candid rapids]

i didnt notice the pavise

[bright token]

Found this on pinterest

Looks like late form of kastenbrust to me

or proto 'gothic' armour lol

another one I found

[cloud siren]

are coventry sallets period accurate to 1450-1470?

since this one is dated to 1460

they look cool nonetheless

plus the copper look always looks the best

[tight umbra]

what era is the cat from?

[lone osprey]

true! and on the left arm with a gauntlet. even if allegorical thats cool to see

[vocal vale]

i’m pretty sure this one is in the game already

[tight umbra]

I dont think i’ve seen one like that

In half sword

[old oxide]

i neeed that pavise immediately wtf

[rigid gull]

References

[terse bronze]

halberd

[tight umbra]

im waiting for someone to start arguing and calling it like a vouge or something

[quaint shore]

Thats a glaougberd

Trust me

[slate mulch]

my brain didnt register most of the blade so i thought its just a really long warhammer

[terse bronze]

a warhammer, 40,000 centimetres long

[slate mulch]

[slate mulch]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1055560006407303188/1492347452576108554/IMG_4065.gif

[chrome rover]

What do you mean? Its just a Bardiche

[cloud siren]

i thought it was a vouge

[terse bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/bo2-blackops2-black-ops-2-call-of-duty-blackops-gif-4477117248402770466

[dim mauve]

Halfsword RTX

[fleet junco]

guy from halfsword

[bright token]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/andrea_carloni/53321057479

Is this alla tedesca armour?

[lone osprey]

I mean it's a sculpture in a part of italy that used to be a part of austria by a german artist from ulm who worked in northern italy lol

I would just describe it how it's built and forget about regions at that point

the construction is clearly italian you can say that much - whether it was made to look german ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[bright token]

Got it, thank you Rudiblock!

The armour has more fluting than most Italian harness I've come across so I thought it's probably alla tedesca lol

[bright token]

found this on facebook

https://initiale.irht.cnrs.fr/decor/26863 found its source

The man at bottom left cuirass looks kinda like this one

[restive geyser]

Always happens

"Bardiche is NOT A HALBERD!! Here my Victorian era record that also gets the name of everything else wrong!!"

"That's a vouge! Because Victorian era records say so!!"

[slate mulch]

erm its actually an epsilon axe...

[tight umbra]

actually, none of you are right, and im right cause my mom told me to believe in myself!

[idle valley]

its a chopping spear

[restive geyser]

It's actually a Rast & Gasser M1898

[quaint shore]

Its a Stick

Its all sticks

[bright token]

Incredible matching

[chrome rover]

new Alex The History Guy video ! ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EY219F-sW0&pp=ugUEEgJlbg%3D%3D

[coral path]

Augusto Boer Bront's progress on 1460-1480 frogmouth

[slate mulch]

u mean an atgeirr ?

[lone topaz]

dont think ive seen many frogmouths without the neck brace style bevor that attaches to the cuirass
is that less common then im led to believe or was it more of a later addition?

[coral path]

its a HALBERD.

😠

[slate mulch]

https://giphy.com/gifs/ragebait-battle-beast-esquerartovio-9dawxyNUo4kq8ogRZc

[cloud siren]

wait so its not a vouge then ?

[terse bronze]

never was

[cloud siren]

so what is it then?

[terse bronze]

halberd

[cloud siren]

huh thats weird , cuz i searched it up and it said that a vogue is basically a meat-cleaver on a stick .

[terse bronze]

all based on victorian era stuff

[cloud siren]

ooooh

[terse bronze]

#1446969526812934256

it might have been called "vouge suisse" (swiss vouge) but that because of a lack of a proper term at the time

whereas german speaking lands would have had a word of it, halberd (or halbart I forgot the correct german spelling)

[cloud siren]

thanks for clarifying 🫀

[coral path]

<@&1080390104562016306>

[next orchid]

whats your source for "vouge suisse" being a period term? as far as i know, it was rejected as a term since the 1930s

[bleak ore]

is that a grand bascinet?

[vocal vale]

yes

based off ulrich ix von matsch’s

[bleak ore]

I want to see that in the game

[terse bronze]

Nah I got mixed up with another source

[restive geyser]

Doesn't this claim stem from the victorian era historians

[coral path]

He means that it was a 19th-century "classification term"

I think

[silver heart]

even tho that helm isn’t original to the harness its placed on…

[void stream]

peak reference

🥹

[slate mulch]

dont get it but atleast the edges are chamfered so it pleases me

[terse bronze]

stool samples?

[tight umbra]

do throwing maces exist? when were they used

[robust tendon]

probably not

[terse bronze]

I heard byzantine heavy cavs used them in their more early days but I really have no source

[tight umbra]

i just remembered seeing like a painting with javelins in the air and it caught my eye that theres just a mace amidst the javelins, cant remember what the painting was though

[terse bronze]

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/238rkc/what_kind_of_mace_would_a_byzantine_cataphract_use/

[tight umbra]

i just remembered i think its bayeux tapestry

let me look somewhere

yup here it is, this ones between '51' and '52'

i dont know how accurate this is but its worth mentioning

[next orchid]

Wace describes the english tying stones to sticks and throwing them that way

[next orchid]

lol the "they carried multiple maces so that they could throw them" lmao

[terse bronze]

lol

[next orchid]

also im pretty sure its "throwing-javelins"

[robust tendon]

Only source he gives for throwing maces is someone using it to kill a wolf, definitely not evidence for being used in war

[next orchid]

iirc the author lists the equipment the light troops should have, and its axes or maces along with their javelins, so he is just repeating that here

but throwing maces are legit

[tight umbra]

throwing maces also seem inefficient tbh, but i never threw one so i can never know

[next orchid]

"And now, after attacking each other from a distance with javelins and other missiles, they came together menacingly for a hand-to-hand conflict; the shields were fixed side to side in the form of a tortoise-shed [scutis in testudinum formam coagmentatis], and they stood foot to foot. The barbarians, who are always alert and nimble, threw at our men huge clubs, hardened in the fire [ingentes clavas in nostros conicientes ambustas], and ran their swords through the breasts of those who showed most resistance; thus they broke through the left wing [of the Romans]. When this gave way, a strong troop of reserves bravely hastened to their aid from near at hand, and rallied them when death already sat upon their necks."

• Ammianus Marcellinus, Rerum gestarum, 4th century, ed. Ammianus Marcellinus, with an English translation, John Carew Rolfe, vol. 3, 1939, pg. 433; 31.7.12
  This is an account of Ad Salices (377).

[next orchid]

also not wace but william of poitiers:

They threw javelins and missiles o f various kinds, murderous axes and stones tied to sticks.

i keep on mixing the two narratives

anyways, think of boomerangs and bolas

actually i guess the former often have an edge but u get my point

[coral path]

thought it was a useful ref

[tight umbra]

so much references we ran out and began posting chairs

[restive geyser]

You have sources of visored kettles?

[tight umbra]

<@&1080390104562016306>

[wary bear]

God

DAMNIT

[tight umbra]

must be tough having to delete all those messages

[wary bear]

Mr beast is relentless

[wary bear]

It is. I have to open discord, go to the channel to ban people, and type out like, a sentence. It’s too much sometimes 😔

[tight umbra]

cancel mrbeast for scamming all these poor folk

[slate mulch]

p sure i saw a video on this specific topic a few days ago

oh yea tod cutler did one

[tight umbra]

you got a link?

[restive geyser]

Do we have a understanding how common it was for dyed armory

Like textiles and Brigandies

Just what color was more common, what compound created the dye, and generally common was it to see

I would assume red madder was the common ingredient in dying

For well, red

[lone topaz]

its regional from what i understand

availability of materials to make said dye

where one is cheap it might be expensive to others

[coral path]

nope

[restive geyser]

Meh

It's ight anyway

[zinc crag]

yea cuz red was common back then

what wasnt common was purple so royalty and the rich associated with it

cuz it was basically like showing off your wealth when you wore purple

[coral path]

English maxxing

[vocal vale]

may sound obvious but red green and blue were like 80% of what was poppin

[restive geyser]

I doubt green was common ngl

Green dye isn't easy at all

To create

As it requires multiple steps

And iirc

Two flowers

To create the color

While there is some obtainable green

That dark green you see in manuscripts as a textile color

Is fucking hard to get

[vocal vale]

i mean green is pretty plentiful in most of the art i’ve seen

[restive geyser]

Dark or light green?

Iirc

Yellow, red, and blue were super easy to obtain dyes

[vocal vale]

also there’s a treatise on painting that says that a yellowish color called “orpimento” and a color that is green (two parts orpimento and one part indigo) are good for painting lances and shields

[restive geyser]

The craziest thing about dark green

Is it has multiple ways of making it

Metal, yellow, or some form indigo or blue

[vocal vale]

greenious

[restive geyser]

But it wasn't till the 18th century that arsenic was used to make the color green that mimicked the ones used before

Ofc that was cancerous though

[restive geyser]

Oh yeah! These kinds of green were the more obtainable forms of green at the time

The green here @vocal vale

Is what i am talking about

This still wasn't as rare as purple though

[feral flame]

this one looks magnificent

[slate mulch]

just look up Throwing mace on yt

his is the 2nd vid that pops up i think

[tight umbra]

i found another video that also mentions the bayeux tapestry about the topic

is alex the history guy (https://www.youtube.com/@AlexTheHistoryGuy) good to learn something from?

[terse bronze]

1450-1460 France - Abbeville, Bibl. patrimoniale, MS 370

[restive geyser]

thats

a very interesting plackard

what is this?

also, the flower guard that guy has on the far left in that same image, very cool

actually

is there a reason why everyone in this picture whom is armored, is seemingly wearing plackards?

[sterile crane]

I think they're just a pretty common piece of kit

[silver heart]

relatively common means of brigandine reinforcement/combo with a textile covered cuirass. show up a lot of the time in french manuscript art from the period.

[restive geyser]

not much evidence to suggest a Brigandine and Plackard was commonly used

if at all

[terse bronze]

inconclusive at best on what the "placart" being refered to in said texts actually means

[restive geyser]

plackards were worn with a breastplate to create a Cuirass, usually.

Most of the sources showing it being used in french and burgundy sources, is very debatable. As they could be just covers, going under the plackard to cover the breastplate

[silver heart]

there’s defo room for interpretation still. vast majority were textile covered means of plate, yes, but that doesn’t mean every example from art shows as much.

[restive geyser]

its fairly easy to decipher a brigandine between a textile cover

i think the only time i've seen the two being worn together

was from reenactors

[silver heart]

in most examples, yes. but some art pieces have rivet patterns that make such identification inconclusive.

[restive geyser]

Rivets aren't always a telltale sign

[silver heart]

burgundian ordinances (specifically abbeville) from the time of charles the bold also clearly outline a coutillier being outfitted with a brig plus plackart.

[restive geyser]

The thing with the Brigandine and Plackard, is that its just fairly strange to do regardless

Why would you double layer plate

Over just wearing a breastplate to make it a cuirass

[restive geyser]

Isn't this the same book that stated a brigandine with a lance rest?

Because if so

That's also

Very debated

As it could be referring to a breastplate

Far as ik

That's the only written example of it

What could be referred is a "Placart a arrest", which was likely a breastplate terminology

[restive geyser]

Small correction here

It was a plackard with a lance rest

Which is even weirder

There is a lot of evidence lacking the existence or use of a brigandine and plackard combo, now is there maybe a 0.0001% chance of it actually happening? Yeah, sure. MAYBE, it did. Do we have evidence of it happening? No.

Does it make sense? No.

Is there a tactical advantage to this to advise it? Fuq no.

[silver heart]

i’d say there’s some sense to it but, i don’t think i’ll be doing any convincing.

still, i don’t think talking in such absolutes is all that sensical either but, i digress.

[restive geyser]

Wearing a plackard and brigandine

Is equal to wearing two bullet proof vest over each other

[silver heart]

not at all comparable.

[restive geyser]

You aren't getting much more value to it

[silver heart]

i disagree.

[restive geyser]

<@&1080390104562016306>

💔

It must be a waterbottle

Thank you whoever did it

[robust tendon]

the rivet pattern is pretty universal and shows up on everything, clothes and such

[restive geyser]

Wassup crecy

[sterile crane]

And what about the plackarts that overlap with breastplates alot?

[robust tendon]

hello

[restive geyser]

Wdym?

[restive geyser]

Bro 😭

"Wassup."

"Hell."

[robust tendon]

typo

[restive geyser]

Nah it was just funny

[sterile crane]

Wouldnt that also be putting two vests over one another

[restive geyser]

By overlapping

Do you mean the long pieces at the top that have the connecting latches to the breastplate?

[sterile crane]

I mean plackarts overlap with breastplates too, unless you mean the botton part of it overlapping what would be the rest of a brigandine?

[restive geyser]

@robust tendon i am confused

What are you referring to?

What part of the plackard?

[robust tendon]

plackarts overlap with the bp, just the upper part

not sure whats confusing

[restive geyser]

Thats what i mentioned, but ig he means something else

[sterile crane]

Its cus your comparison of wearing a brigandine and plackart as being 'wearing two vests' is idk kinda confusing

[restive geyser]

Because it is

Brigandines usually go down to your waist

The breastplate is only overlapped by the top pieces of a plackard

A breastplate is in the name

It only covers the breast

[sterile crane]

Yeah thats what i meant by the lower portion of the plackart

[restive geyser]

It doesn't go down any further because then that'd be a cuirass

[sterile crane]

The faulds and all

Isnt a cuirass just a front and back part

[restive geyser]

I don't think I've ever seen a breastplate with faulds

[sterile crane]

Yeah its the plackart that has

[restive geyser]

I usually say cuirass are armor that protects more than just the top half of the body

[restive geyser]

Either a lance rest on a plackard, which is weird af

[vocal vale]

there are several

some of them are literally in half sword

[restive geyser]

The kastenburst ones right?

[robust tendon]

no several non-kastenbrust as well

[vocal vale]

“faulds” btw refers to maille, the correct term is paunce of plates or tonlet

[vocal vale]

i was thinking more the churburg ones that were in the demo as well

[robust tendon]

maybe u could call em faulds of plate but thats stupid

[restive geyser]

Faulds of plate just sounds like a weirder tasset

[restive geyser]

That's something i did not know

[vocal vale]

here’s one

[restive geyser]

Oh these

[sterile crane]

Thats good to know

[sterile crane]

So the maille there would be reffered as faulds and the lames on the bp as tonlet or pounce of plates?

[vocal vale]

yes

more likely paunce of plates

[sterile crane]

Cool

[restive geyser]

but back to this, its still unknown whether or not they are saying there a lance rest on the plackard, or using terminology for a breastplate

[restive geyser]

#general-catfish-🐱🐟 real quick

[vocal vale]

regardless it is a breastplate reduced around the shoulders enough to fit over already present armor and what i would consider fit to be called a plackart by modern standards

[sterile crane]

Oh yeah and going back to this it doesnt seem unreasonable, i dont think they would interfere with each other

[sterile crane]

Also i was wondering, the thing the lames are attached on wouldnt be a plackart?

[next orchid]

the lance rest is on the plackart

its the only way it makes sense in French

the plackart itself is likely tall, yes

[restive geyser]

Do we have proof of something like that

[next orchid]

yes

[restive geyser]

Manuscript wise

[next orchid]

extant wise, even

anyways, the shit 0.3mm brigandine when u arrest ur lance:

https://tenor.com/view/explode-terminator-fire-explosion-skeleton-gif-16779623

plackart is most definitely not being used in the way we use it today though

but thats kind of irrelevant

the overlapping itself is not desired: what IS desired, is that the front of your cuirass should not be of brigandine

and as for putting two bullet proof vests over one another: reinforcement plates, for the express purpose to reinforce, over white cuirasses themselves are not rare

[next orchid]

i think its telling that charles gives up on the cuirass arrest in all the later ordinances lol

and only has the lance arrest

as for commonality: their wearing over brigandines in the depictions is a trope. its not mentioned a lot in texts (i think only the 71 ordinance)

which is why in some depictions, literally everyone is wearing a plackart over a brigandine, and in others u never see it

[terse bronze]

i store my clothes in a placard

[next orchid]

when i die my name is gonna be on a plackard

[terse bronze]

i will store clothes inside you?

[terse bronze]

post em

i rember this one from spain but it could just be depicting it go through the placart

[next orchid]

i need to find the extant cuirass but off the top of my head theres earl of warwick's effigy, and another one that i forgot

actually wait i need to go find them one sec

[lone osprey]

Matthias Grünewald c.1502-03 Lindenhardter Choralter

[next orchid]

i was gonna say why dont the faces look ugly as fuck before reading the name of the artist

[terse bronze]

could you send the entire thing pweaaase

[coral path]

https://www.meisterdrucke.com/kunstdrucke/Matthias-Gruenewald/1659485/Die-14-Nothelfer,-katholische-Heilige-genannt-Helfer-in-der-Not.html

its a good one

[terse bronze]

thanku

[coral path]

Np!

[bright token]

looks like earlier German 'gothic' armour

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Karlstadt_St._Andreas_1456.JPG source 😄

I like the flutings on his plackart and pauldron

[tight umbra]

I wanna ask this again

[tight umbra]

Pretty cool

[lone osprey]

I like the expression on his face and graffiti and the way his sabatons hang over the lion

[bright token]

I cant figure out is the chest strap for his bevor or combining breastplate with plackart

[lone osprey]

very likely his breastplate to plackart - but even Goll admits this is never easy to determine because there is limited and ambiguous evidence

[bright token]

Got it

Thank you rudiblock 😄

[lone osprey]

he offers e.g. 1475-80 Michael Pacher, St. Florian, Museo Civico Bozen as an example of neck protection attached to plackart

[bright token]

Cool!

[restive geyser]

Why didn't England use a Sten gun in the 100 year war

Are they stupid?

[lone osprey]

its pretty interesting in Goll's 2014 photos the so-called Friedrich the Victorious armour had a strap riveted to the helmet attached to the plackart (actually layered on top of another belt attaching the breastplate to the plackart at the same time), and since then they've restored it so the helmet is attached to the breastplate via a pin hung on the helmet that goes through a staple that pokes through from the breastplate.

cant trust no hoes

[coral path]

Happy Saint George Day!!!!

[slim bear]

Thats’s the HS victory guy!!

[coral path]

I thought it was St. Michael?

[slim bear]

Idk

[fast pagoda]

hs victory is the last world emperor

[tight umbra]

the fluted greaves in the first pic are awesome

[tight umbra]

no, its st. george

this is the original image, idk where its from though

this is from the nuremberg chronicles and its in half sword too iirc

its safe to assume that the victory screen image is also from the nuremberg chronicle probably

[coral path]

it was in the old old demo

[fast pagoda]

It's not, it's from a 1498 latin translation of the apocalypse of pseudo-methodius (in which George does not appear)

the caption to the image is "That some [or a certain] Roman king will subdue a beast with seven heads and ten horns, aided by heavenly [or celestial] protection"

[coral path]

I didnt think it was either

[fast pagoda]

Aligning with the story of the apocalypse

[fast pagoda]

here is the page

[tight umbra]

sick

[coral path]

I get to repost this now.

[magic sand]

Any chance we’ll eventually see any Iberian style helmets with chainmail visors? This one is from the MET’s digital archive.

[slate mulch]

isnt that a ww1 thing

[restive geyser]

Sir

This is a world war 1 tanker helm face protection concept

[fast pagoda]

The second coming

[restive geyser]

Which yk

I am happy you are able to send this because seening it on the brodie is cool

But like

Wrong channel

And 200 years off

Actually

More than that

[restive geyser]

Iberian helmet and it's a brodie 😭 😭

[fast pagoda]

He's the menace of the refs, he was gone but he has returned

He knows it

[restive geyser]

What pisses me off more

Is the helmet is the wrong era

These chainmail face protectors were thought of concepts in ww1

You see that brim

It's a mkII

Meaning it's a ww2 brodie with a ww1 shrapnel protector

[slate mulch]

you sayin its like putting a hounskull on a set of gothic armor

[restive geyser]

Because it is

This is like a PASGT helmet on a Wehrmacht

It's cursed

And you can tell it was painted over

[slate mulch]

best part is if you type chainmail helmet ww1 thats like the 3rd pic that comes up

[restive geyser]

God

[slate mulch]

also just, iberian helmets

so what like sallets and kettles ?

[restive geyser]

These are better examples of this btw

With MkI brodies

[slate mulch]

ye

[restive geyser]

@terse bronze

That's something he knows more of

[slate mulch]

kev is a nerd but in a cool way

iirc these guys are supposedly iberian

[terse bronze]

WHAT

oops caps

[restive geyser]

So mean ]:

Iberian helmets

What they look like

[terse bronze]

french/flemish and italian

[pale coral]

Bros got a fuggin boss of the plains for a kettle hat

[terse bronze]

bunch of armets, western european sallets, barbutes, open face sallets, kettles and capacete ect

[slate mulch]

[pale coral]

Although I do love the concept of steel cowboy hat

[slate mulch]

i mean

[terse bronze]

no way they went back in time to make hats based on future cowboys ones

[slate mulch]

big if true

[tight umbra]

Hey dude i think you’re a tiny bit out of period

[magic sand]

My apologies for that last source, I did NOT realize that kettle helmets were in production all the way up until 1945 and that the chainmail visors only came AFTER the 1460s.

Instead, how about this uniquely visored alla tedesca sallet? It’s shown here in this manuscript by Dominique Papety:

[restive geyser]

Brodie isn't a kettle

It's inspired by it

[restive geyser]

It's unlike sallets.

Which would later evolve into these by 17th-19th century

[magic sand]

They mean the same thing, just different regional naming conventions. It's like calling a Voulge a Glaive or a Halberd. If anything, the british likely renamed it to a "brodie" helmet to reclaim it from the Spanish.

[restive geyser]

Oh boy...

[magic sand]

They didn't really care about naming conventions back then anyways. The british would have just called it a "helmet"

[restive geyser]

The british named it Brodie in multiple different uniform guidelines and regulations.

The helmet was named that by John Leopold Brodie

The name comes from the man who made it

Brodie

[magic sand]

Yes and I'm saying that he renamed it based on the long preexisting Iberian design invented by the Andalusian general Rigoberto Vanegas Suarez de Cettlino (Kettle)

[restive geyser]

There is zero evidence of that

The brodie was designed for modern war at the time

It just so happened the kettle was a good base plate

Both helmets were designed with the mentality of "whatever happens above me will not be my death."

[terse bronze]

Don't feed the troll bruh

Number one rule on internet

[restive geyser]

Tru

[coral path]

holy fuck its fat tony

[coral path]

dude is a legend

[vocal vale]

s tier trollge

[prisma raven]

yes

#references♥_1450-1470 message

[tidal ermine]

Some Irish stuff

[vocal vale]

is this not too late for the game

[silver heart]

this is a depiction of the gallóglaigh and ceithern from the first quarter of the sixteenth century and wouldn't be applicable to the game's timeframe. both the helm adorned by and the sword utilized by the individual with the mail haubergon and collar are telling of this.

im not as familiar with the irish 'dress' of the period to know if their depictions also point to this.

i believe the individual on the left has a bretached skull cap of some sort?

unless im mistaken, both of these non-contemporary depictions are much more apt representations of irish armor from the timeframe of the game.

[tidal ermine]

The gear is old

[tidal ermine]

I couldn’t find many photos

[vocal vale]

it is visibly not lol

[tidal ermine]

Explain

[vocal vale]

massive swords like that and streamlined helmets with bills weren’t a thing until the 1500s

[tidal ermine]

I feel like massive swords have been around longer

[vocal vale]

what Autonomy33 feels like is not a historical precedent

[tidal ermine]

No shit

[candid rapids]

there likely were but they werent popular

they wouldnt be carried just like dat

also ireland during the medieval period and reneissance was pretty isolated

[restive geyser]

Also

Likely wouldn't be in half sword due to it being Irish, so far only England, French, Iberian, Italy, HRE, Hungarian is the only stuff that is allowed [if i recall]

And Ireland was very to themselves

And has been since the creation of the Gaelic culture there

Tho, it'd be a badass expansion.

[vocal vale]

the effigies are too late

[coral path]

bruh

[coral path]

too late

this is too early iirc

[slate mulch]

double pommel is kinda fire

[tight umbra]

targe is fire

[slate mulch]

whats the black strap under his knee for

[slim bear]

Holy shit Jamiroquai hat

https://tenor.com/view/virtual-insanity-gif-1489225195979366584

[earnest mango]

schism's, made of, printer ink insanity

[slim terrace]

im starting to see where the 100 yard stare the willies have comes from

[tight umbra]

i hope these paintings and such are exaggerated cause i dont like the medieval battles being that crowded

like crammed together

[next orchid]

its not exaggeration, its just a lack of perspective

battles could get cramped though, the decisive phase is pretty much always cramped

[white herald]

And depending on the battle (Agincourt for example) its so crowded that if you fall you’ll get trampled and drowned in the mud 😭

[coral path]

its 1370-1380 but still interesting

[slim terrace]

shit the good knight got slimed tf out

oh wait no it was the other way around

[tight umbra]

i keep thinking theres a new topic in this chat but its bum ass scammers

[bright token]

Fluted sallet brow plate? 👀

[robust tendon]

think that might just be the upper part of the visor

[tight umbra]

is there any source of those chains you wear on an arming doublet?

[vocal vale]

plenty

type “jack chains” in the search in this channel

[tight umbra]

pretty cool

[cloud siren]

found a new pfp 🤑

[terse bronze]

way better than the larpscinet

[tight umbra]

my pfp is quite good

[cloud siren]

yeah that was a placeholder

i should use a more accurate font too

[fathom obsidian]

from the 1400's, and sometime before, the Ming Dynasty Handcannon

ye olden firearm

By the 1440's, there was about ~20% gunners in their main military forces

meaning it wouldn't be out of place to perhaps have a smuggled boomstick somewhere random as a secret....

it's mostly a half-joke but could be a funny and niche gag weapon like the crossbow

[tight umbra]

Would be cool if we got secret out of period items

[dull pagoda]

benelli shotgun ductaped at the bottom of the cart in the forest

[terse bronze]

not even need to try to explain it with some weird smuggling thing, the game takes place in 1475

firearms WERE used

quite a bunch even

(western europe)

[cloud siren]

will the devs even implement the boomstik ?

on the game ?

[tight umbra]

we should be getting a handgonne

imagine its next patch

[coral path]

mine in a nutshell

[terse bronze]

my beloved

[coral path]

ready for militia tier

[silver heart]

emma!!!

[quaint shore]

just looked at this..

so tuff..

shame its too late for the game though

[terse bronze]

didn't know they had gambeson inside the helmets, but now that i think about it, it does makes sense to protect against heavy blunt force mace trauma

[vocal vale]

Who

[coral path]

I thought it was the lady with the name with L

[silver heart]

lady in the jousting and harnischfechten scene that max knows. she runs a hema centered health and fitness program.

[vocal vale]

liz

[silver heart]

fuck, you right.

[vocal vale]

i've fought her with her own sword b4

(permanent brag)

[silver heart]

when did you meet her?

[vocal vale]

first hootenanny

[silver heart]

ahhhh.

[coral path]

yeah

[tight umbra]

any depictions on 'golden' or 'gilded' armor like the baron has in HS

[bright hedge]

completely made up

im lying

[idle valley]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/829777202945064970/1467498923571544189/image.png?ex=69eeafa0&is=69ed5e20&hm=81e18252596eed665bcee347f11d889dd00c26f9cb690f753b5390248bfcf284&=&format=webp&quality=lossless

oh right i have no image perms lol

[restive geyser]

Charles the bold

He is likely the main inspiration to baron

[eager nymph]

charles the bad

[idle valley]

karl der kühne

[cloud siren]

what is that funky hat ?

[idle valley]

hes the court wizard

probably just a kind of felt hat though

[silver heart]

i’ve seen these referred to as sugarloaf bonnets but it may also be some variety of steeple felt. both types were rather popular throughout french speaking lands in the later half of the 15th century.

[cloud siren]

jackpot🤑🤑

i want a 3 or a 2 fr

[tranquil gull]

Cool as fuck is what it is

[cloud siren]

sugarloaf bonnet is what ive heard

[tight umbra]

i'd be wearing this

[cloud siren]

shaperone ?

is that what its called ?

[tight umbra]

yeah chaperone

[coral path]

kab

[cloud siren]

iforgot the name tbh

duffal or something

or ducal

[coral path]

Berretta Sforzesca

Alla Capitanesca

yk

hat

not everything has a name

[cloud siren]

oh i had the other hat in mind

this thing

[coral path]

same thing really

hell you could call this a mushroom hat

[cloud siren]

yeah but the coolest one of all its the tall hats

the visconti hat

[cloud siren]

can never get enough of these armors 🔥🔥🔥

[coral path]

English maxxer

[lone topaz]

weird request but does someone have that photo of the reenactor wearing a sallet with a bycocket ontop

[coral path]

classics

[terse bronze]

kab

[coral path]

yoo....

[silver heart]

love vros pauldron reinforcement.

[autumn narwhal]

Hey guys how about this bascinet?

I think this type was used in 15 century

Maybe the Grandbascinet fit more

Smthng like this

[slate mulch]

thrustworthy crossbow merchant

[coral path]

No.

[autumn narwhal]

https://tenor.com/view/sad-seal-seal-sad-distraught-how-could-you-gif-1180936976132933340

[autumn narwhal]

Okay:(

[runic wigeon]

hello fellow gooba

[autumn narwhal]

Oh hello

[runic wigeon]

I love that version of the bascinet

what one was it again

[autumn narwhal]

Yea me too

[runic wigeon]

i could of sworn it was in the wallace collection

[autumn narwhal]

Maybe

[autumn narwhal]

So sad that mordschlag say no:(

[runic wigeon]

yea

maybe a modder will make something like that when the games complete

[autumn narwhal]

I hope so

[runic wigeon]

its also kinda bs because I assume at least they were used into the 1400s

[autumn narwhal]

Yea

[terse bronze]

yes, but the game takes place in 1475

[autumn narwhal]

Then what about Grandbascinet?

[terse bronze]

certain types could work

also aaaaa gooba invasion

[runic wigeon]

Correct me if im wrong but werent visors like that used on grand bascinets?

[terse bronze]

Yes but earlier than the game's timeframe

[runic wigeon]

bugger

[lament wolf]

ngl i would wear number 2 all the time whenever i go out if i had it

[cloud siren]

brother ?

[autumn narwhal]

Yea..?

[cloud siren]

im your long lost cousin haboog

[silver heart]

@runic wigeon
these would be much more apt for the established timeframe for the game.

[runic wigeon]

well well well

[autumn narwhal]

BROTHER

[lament wolf]

ah, so Willie never got to witness the wondrous paintings of Bosch

depressing