references♥_1450-1470

[civic glade]

Depending in the buildup level it might be a few hours to as much as 24 hours

White vinegar is best

[stark haven]

i maneged to just rub it off with some lemon zest

[civic glade]

Lemon zest???

Like the peel?

[stark haven]

oh

no

i meant juice

english is my second language

[next orchid]

he has fingers of steel

he probably shouldve just used them

[stark haven]

this is how it looked like before

after i allso used some sand paper it now looks like this

tho, i dont have many options for i to sharpen it

[civic glade]

if you have a lot of time for it, a 400/1200 diamond stone and a strop with some compound will put an edge on that will last years and years, costing about 100 bucks alltogether

i can send you recs

and by a lot of time i mean a couple of hours of work

if you just want it to be sharp and dont care about durability, then an angle grinder with a grinding wheel will do it in about 30 seconds

[stark haven]

thx for the info bro

this is better than my original plan

that beeing for i to sand paper it until it is good

[civic glade]

ill dm you my recs

for materials

[stark haven]

fair

[silver heart]

HOLY BASEDDD

[silver heart]

beloved articulated gorget

[prisma raven]

Ulrich V, Count of Württemberg, c. 1470–1480, Originally in the Stiftskirche in Stuttgart.

[silver heart]

[thorny otter]

not another

[void stream]

"The Last Judgment" By Hans Memling

date: 1466-1473

Painting by Michael Pacher

Date: 1475

even if it's a little ahead of the game's time, I still think it could fit in

[vocal vale]

lmao

[untold brook]

did a re enactment event this weekend. got some good vids people are sending

[silver heart]

other dudes kit could uh, be better…

[untold brook]

Hes got a full harness, just wears a jupon over it

[bright token]

Alla tedesca style right?

[void stream]

yes

Resurrection of Christ by Mikołaj Obilman

Date: 1466

[bright token]

Are the upper arm pieces of this harness articulated for mobility?

The rerebrace

[night kindle]

This is peak.

[sturdy lily]

True

[night kindle]

I assume this has already been posted, but I like it either way.

Christus vor Pilatus, Meister des
Munderkinger Altars (1473).

my mans having a rough day.

[silver heart]

the sleeby

[night kindle]

Must’ve been exhausted

[next orchid]

"draccus... wheres the door for the tomb of christ?"

[night kindle]

Deep.

[final plover]

Brigandine Armor it existed and is really fasinating, instead of solid plates, the armor used multiple smaller plates that interlock together and are all attatched to a fabric outside by pins. these include currases, arm, leg, sholder, and even some gautlets. its is built to be (possibly) cheeper and easier to make, aswell as to pe easier to move in aswell as put on without aid/ super fasinating and they look really good.

[void stream]

nobody's made of steel well in the case of his energy

[terse bronze]

Brigandine Armor it existed and is really fasinating, instead of solid plates, the armor used multiple smaller plates that interlock together and are all attatched to a fabric outside by pins. these include currases, arm, leg, sholder, and even some gautlets. its is built to be (possibly) cheeper and easier to make, aswell as to pe easier to move in aswell as put on without aid/ super fasinating and they look really good.

[vocal vale]

what other than mobility would be the point of more articulation

[bright token]

I see thank you for the anawer

[vocal vale]

arm leg and gauntlet brigandine disappears in the 15th century because it was outdated and wouldn’t fit the game

[vocal vale]

sorry if it came off as rude i was just genuinely curious as to other possibilities

[bright token]

It’s all good 😄

Ngl i thought it was the armourer flexing his skills to emperor maximilian 1 lol

[vocal vale]

there’s at least one articulated upper cannon shown in the thun sketchbook, oriented pretty much the same direction

he’s also only wearing one iirc

pretty neat

[fierce jackal]

Looks good

[vocal vale]

bu#1346599290029736020mp

[devout zodiac]

https://youtube.com/shorts/ujM8d5SYbzA?si=Tt6nWYY0HxJyY_ld

Reference for techniques

[next orchid]

dont post this

💀

[fleet junco]

morbhau

[next orchid]

hemaists try not to talk out of their asses impossible challenge

[silver heart]

https://tenor.com/view/truth-nuke-truth-true-soyjak-wojak-gif-14828627546768133163

[vocal vale]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1043854764095582260/1332458759674400798/truewilly.gif

[dim mauve]

Just a thought, i always felt like the armoured folk in halfsword looked too skinny, particularly in the arms. The image on the left is what a relatively thin gambeson with flat riveted maile over it does to silhouette, most of it is in the gambeson. Bear in mind im about as skinny as they come.

I feel like the padding under the armour in halfsword should fill out that space alot more

[terse bronze]

They didn't wear padding under plate during the 15thc

[terse bronze]

If you're skinny then you're padding is way too big under your maille to be considered historically accurate for earlier periods not relevant to halfsword tho

[dim mauve]

They most certainly did, arming doublets were padded

[terse bronze]

Halfsword character's silouhette is honestly fine as is especially when compared to contemporary sources

[terse bronze]

Not in the 15thc

I must say, not in the game's timeframe

[dim mauve]

its just about the thinnest gambeson you can get, so no.

[terse bronze]

Thinnest gambeson you can get online or made by a skilled artisan working with historical sources

[dim mauve]

its a historically accurate gambeson...

[terse bronze]

We know from effigies for instance that the little amount of padding that was worn under full maille hauberks in earlier period was not thick at all

Also I can't recall the exact 13thc source that talk about it but I distinctly remember something with artisans being publically shamed and banished from communities if the gambeson they made were heavier than ~3kg

pretty funny story but irrelevant for halfsword 😢

[dim mauve]

3kg is my gambeson waterlogged

[terse bronze]

Then it's the quality of the pic that make you look fat

as in, with an oversized gamb under your untailored maille

That being said, during halfsword's period, they didn't wear gambesons under plate

[dim mauve]

nope, it makes me look fat because i have the maile pulled up above the belt because thats how its meant to be worn, and even thin padding makes arms look alot bigger

[dim mauve]

Again, doublets were padded.

[terse bronze]

not during halfsword's period

Can hardly call them gambesons anyway

[dim mauve]

Have you ever worn plate without padding?

[terse bronze]

Plenty of people have

including people from the 1450-1470

And personal experience aint a source

[dim mauve]

This is the exact period i reenact besides early medieval stuff and ive never once heard of anyone not wearing some sort of padding...

[terse bronze]

just gonna post a bunch of italians with arming doublets

[dim mauve]

yea mate those are padded

moreso in some areas but theyre padded

theyre also way more stiff than gambeson

[terse bronze]

iicr there was mention of i guess you could call padding added to a doublet in very specific areas, or at least mentions that it was useless (like on the shoulders for instance) for comfort and just reinforcing a fragile part, but the doublet itself was not padded

[terse bronze]

Those are not padded bro what

also unrelated but can i see your kit i'm curious

[dim mauve]

if you touch an arming doublet its pretty obviously padded

[dim mauve]

my kit is incomplete

[terse bronze]

That's the fabric texture not lines of quilting

[dim mauve]

i dont have an arming doublet yet

[terse bronze]

show anyway

[dim mauve]

This is the most complete image i have, although im wearing my early period gambeson and i left the arm harness and skirt at home.

leg armour also lacks cuisses

[terse bronze]

Cool

[dim mauve]

my point is that the armour in halfsword kinda looks like its floating above the doublet

[terse bronze]

Well that's probably just a game engine issue

not about their silouhette being wrong (because they're fine) or their doublet lacking gambeson-level padding (because they didn't have it)

[dim mauve]

This is definitely padded, just not in the lower arms because lower arms and lower legs only really need plate

[terse bronze]

That's not padded, that's just the puffyness of the sleeve

this would be padded tho

but that's a jaque not an arming doublet

[dim mauve]

You dont realise how dense the material used for doublets is

its more dense than gambeson by a lot

[ancient pivot]

the floating is because if you model with everything flat against each other, you're gonna have a shitty time rigging it to move in a way that doesn't clip

[dim mauve]

There's ways to do it without much issue

[terse bronze]

Sure, i'm willing to accept this explanation, because as said above we see in earlier periods how thin aketons really were under hauberks. But, please do send your sources on that i'd like to read more about how densely packed 1450-1470 arming doublets truly were (however dense or not halfsword's characters have good proportions, literally straight up modeled from effigies and extants, so it would not be gambeson-level bulkyness)

[dim mauve]

Its really just personaly experience from having been to war of the roses reenactment shows, namely the battle of tewkesbury. Ive seen alot of doublets made for that time period

[terse bronze]

i've seen sources about how jaques should be built for instance, like 30 layers of canvas with a deer skin in the middle for instance but i'd like to see something like that for arming doublets

[terse bronze]

Yeah so modern personal experience and reenactorism

[dim mauve]

Yes, but its based on what was around at the time

[terse bronze]

Ok send it please that's what i was asking lol

[dim mauve]

They get pissy if the pommel on your sword is the wrong general shape

[dim mauve]

send what? Im basing my statements on what they use at these shows, its second hand information.

Also you're getting too caught up in the arming doublet padding thing, my point is that the armour would conform to whats under it far more,

[terse bronze]

I've seen pics on fb of WotR reenactment and honestly 80% of the "reenactors" look terrible

straight out of a 90s osprey book

So excuse me that I don't believe their opinion on "how it was back then"

especially with "but i like it that way!" as a source

[dim mauve]

Proper shows are quite strict on historical accuracy

[terse bronze]

sorry my internet died i'm back

[dim mauve]

idk what shows you're on about

[terse bronze]

And that's another issue unrelated to arms and armor of the game

Like what ramsay said

[dim mauve]

Ive been a 3d artist long enough and used unreal engine enough to know what is or isnt a technical issue.

[sullen charm]

you should keep in mind that its very probable that in those drawings they probably only wear an arming doublet under for artistic purposes to look more aesthetic, not practical.

That wasnt uncommon.

[terse bronze]

They all have arming points

[terse bronze]

You should ask to become a dev then

[dim mauve]

Thats also true, alot of reenactors dont wear padding under greaves but in an actual battle you totally would, had this explained to my by a dude whos been doing reenactment and history for a LONG time.

[terse bronze]

Still no contemporary source to back your shit up

[sullen charm]

But still arming doublets did have some padding, altho minimum compared to gambensons.

[terse bronze]

.

[dim mauve]

Thinner but more dense, or tightly packed, almost like canvas in some cases

[sullen charm]

probably

[dim mauve]

Steel armour is great but without padding in most areas you're heavily missing out on most benefits

[terse bronze]

😭

[dim mauve]

its the same reason helmets were suspended on the head, you dont actually want the steel to touch you

[robust tendon]

wonder why they had minimal padding if any then

[sullen charm]

comfort

[dim mauve]

They... didnt...

[terse bronze]

how convenient btw, what doesn't go your way is artistic license!

[robust tendon]

out of period for halfsword but u get the idea

also

1470

[robust tendon]

then why in art do they show either aketons/pourpoints or just normal arming clothes

artistic license?

[sullen charm]

I believe they all wore some type of minimum padding, comfort in your armour is crucial when moving on a battle, especially for an extended period of time.

[terse bronze]

That's pretty much what I said above

[robust tendon]

this is the most that is shown under armor in my experience looking at art

[dim mauve]

looks like padding to me 😂

[robust tendon]

it's very light

[terse bronze]

The convo started as "no thick gambeson under plate"

[dim mauve]

padding was light

[robust tendon]

i wasn't saying "no padding/quilted clothes at all" but "no thick gambeson like buhurt/modern stuff"

[dim mauve]

not at all, i was talking about there being a gap between the plate and the padding

[terse bronze]

And that's way earlier than halfsword period anyway so completely irrelevant to mid 15thc arming doublets

[robust tendon]

ye just talking in a general sense

[sullen charm]

I agree. Because if you add shirt+gambenson+mail+armour, weight rly adds up, and you get more restricted movement too

[dim mauve]

Buhurt has nothing todo with historical accuracy tbh

[robust tendon]

ofc

[terse bronze]

So you're talking about gambeson not gap

total win

[robust tendon]

they never wore gambeson under plate/whatever else, it was other stuff

[sullen charm]

This was maybe applicable to 13th and 14th century armour. In 15th and 16th gambensons became too thick to wear under armour

[terse bronze]

yeehaw

[robust tendon]

they did wear it over maille though

[dim mauve]

I know, arming doublets are thinner, but more dense.

[terse bronze]

And was also completely redundant to use under plate

[robust tendon]

forgor what this is from but looks 15th c

[sullen charm]

yup

[dim mauve]

gambeson linen is alot softer than arming doublet materials

[terse bronze]

Again I want to believe you i really do but i'm gonna need something better than "my pals do it"

[sullen charm]

I mean alot of things are logical

[terse bronze]

Maybe for you, but that doesn't mean it was for 15thc folks

[robust tendon]

u need evidence though beyond "well it makes sense"

otherwise you're just making shit up

[sullen charm]

If you add too much padding u get restricted movement plus more weight

[terse bronze]

We're not talking about this

i agree with that

[dim mauve]

Well then im not really going to be able to provide you with what you want, my knowledge is second hand information given to me by mostly very well informed people.

[terse bronze]

Shame

[sullen charm]

But from what ive seen on pictures and books, the more complicated and protective plate armour got, the thinner was the padding underneath.

[terse bronze]

To the point where, in the 15thc, plate is so developped that the need for a padded doublet becomes redundant (except, in some instances, some slightly thicker spots for comfort)

[robust tendon]

overgeneralization because with the absence of plate, u still see no padding at all (13th cent etc)

[dim mauve]

yea because the less space it takes up the more freely the steel can move, there was still padding though, i think some people here really overestimate how thick "padding" was.

[sullen charm]

i can imagine that

[dim mauve]

you definitely want some level of padding on shoulders

[sullen charm]

Also to take in account that not everyone was able to afford proper padding and armour suiting it.

by not everyone i mean most

[prisma raven]

well, u can always get a doublet with maheutres

[sullen charm]

A helmet back then costed like a whole cow

[robust tendon]

armor was relatively common for the average soldier, least some form of it

[terse bronze]

More and more historians especially the ones specialized in 11-13th centuries (Nath Dos Reis in head) are believing that gambesons from this timeframe aren't actually designs to cushion blunt force but to protect from cutting, by many factors one of them being how the linen fibers react when cut with a sharp blade

[robust tendon]

helmet at the least

[terse bronze]

There's a receipt for a sallet for Charles the Bold that, alone, costed ~4/5 standard complete harnesses

@prisma raven holy shit coustillier

[sullen charm]

crazy hahaha

[prisma raven]

hard

[terse bronze]

dubai type shit

[sullen charm]

why horse doin the😝

[dim mauve]

Gambeson is really good at both of those tasks, slashing someone through a gambeson does not really work that well, but also without padding mail really isnt doing a whole lot against plunt forces.

[terse bronze]

i'm talking about standalone gamb I should have precised

[robust tendon]

the main difference between low-class armor and high class stuff is ofc ornaments but also quality, some stuff was really very expensive but saying a single helmet is unaffordable for most people is a massive generalization

[terse bronze]

that you see on infantrymen

[robust tendon]

iirc

[terse bronze]

he's freaky mode

[dim mauve]

gambeson is heavily underrated

[sullen charm]

seems very artistically made

[terse bronze]

gambeson OVER maille is even moreso

absolutely love that shit

[sullen charm]

Does that even work?

[robust tendon]

yes

[sullen charm]

Never knew

[terse bronze]

very

[robust tendon]

better than wearing it underneath

[terse bronze]

mmmmh jaques

[lone osprey]

top right

[terse bronze]

even in the 15thc btw there's mentiones of quilted garments (jaques) being worn over maille

[sullen charm]

interesting

[dim mauve]

This is the thickness of my gambeson, not particularly thick but still thicker but lighter than a doublet.

and yes its covered in oil

[sullen charm]

oil up

[terse bronze]

Description of Philippe Auguste, King of France's armor layers

• Gambeson
• Hauberk
• "Pansière de fer" (/Iron corset) Not known for sure.. I'm thinking coat of plates?
• Sleeveless Gambeson

[sullen charm]

Thats many layers

Could bro even squat in that many layers

[terse bronze]

the underarmor gamb is extremely thin btw

[sullen charm]

ah okey then

its like linen type of thin?

[terse bronze]

the sleeveless gambeson on top probably thicker but even then not overly so

[dim mauve]

gambeson over armour is surely toasty

[terse bronze]

wdym

[robust tendon]

forget what year this is from but iirc very late

like 1480

[sullen charm]

why the dude in the back mogging

[terse bronze]

gambs were made out of linen yes, with wool densely packed inbetween layers (13thc)

[dim mauve]

im willing to bet that material is very stiff

[robust tendon]

also true

[terse bronze]

I didn't want to post them to avoid flooding the channel with non-15thc ref but you're unstoppable!!!

[dim mauve]

metal armour radiates heat away from the wearer almost like a heatsink, gambeson over the top would surely keep the heat in

[terse bronze]

or avoid the sun from hitting the links of the hauberk

as a surcoat

[terse bronze]

The arming of a German knight as described in "Diu Crone" (ca. 1230)

This knightly romance contains a passage instructing a knight on how to arm himself for tournament.

----- Original Middle High German text (Scholl 1852, pp. 223-224) -----
An dem andern morgen
Vil gar unverborgen
Manic helt ze velde san,
Der sin hosen schuohte an,
Dar über sin schellier;
Ein wambeis unde ein collier
Muost er haben dar nach:
Hie mite was ime niht gach;
So muost ein halsperc wesen da bi,
Dar nach zwen knappen oder dri,
Die ime die coifen stricten,
Und das wappen also schicten,
Daz ez im were behende;
Dar nach an dem ende
Gehörte vür die brüst ein blat:
Was er iht an der ritter stat,
Deswär, so muostz da vür:
Des gewan er michel gevüer,
Ob er wolte stechen;
Ouch sol er niht zebrecken,
Ein wambeis sol dar uber sin,
Oder ein wappenroc sidin:
So vüer er wol in ritters schin.

I will not, nor can I, give a full translation of this excerpt, but the order of arming is this:

1. mail chausses, 2) knee cops, 3) gambeson and collar, 4) hauberk, 5) coif, integral or separate (?) [ventail is tied closed by "two or three valets"?], 6) "plate" on the breast, 7) gambeson OR surcoat.

[robust tendon]

pic 2 is peak

[sullen charm]

btw why do some armours have such small waists

[dim mauve]

I did look to see if there was some sort of process to apply but there isnt from what i could find. Being a 3d artist of almost a decade and a reenactor i thought i might as well check.

[sullen charm]

like who fits in there?

[robust tendon]

it was very fashionable at the time

[terse bronze]

most people actually

it also serve a mechanical purpose

[sullen charm]

i get that but

Idk looks small

[terse bronze]

it sits on the wearer's natural waist and make it less heavy to wear, and more comfortable

[dim mauve]

you'd be surprised

[robust tendon]

it gets way more extreme than that

another out of period thing but gets the point across

[sullen charm]

Ngl that sounds smart af
Weight distribution peak

[terse bronze]

Trust me if you're a normal person, or athletic like they were, it's completely fine and normal

[dim mauve]

unrealistic beauty standards 😔

[sullen charm]

frrr

[robust tendon]

much better to look at than modern fridgebuild mfs imo

[terse bronze]

true

stamina build..

[sullen charm]

also look at this mf no gaps whatsoever

[sullen charm]

bcs back then u actually needed stamina

[dim mauve]

buhurt people trying to look like knights with zero visible waistline lol

buhurt made me like brigandine so much less

[robust tendon]

it's a thing you see on pretty much any harness, how much the waist tapers varies though

like this one is pretty mild, still has the wasp waist shape tho

[sullen charm]

varies from wearer to wearer

[robust tendon]

ye

[dim mauve]

you want a tight waist because if you dont then the weight of the whole thing hangs from your shoulders, which isnt fun at all.

[terse bronze]

oh I have an image for that wait

[robust tendon]

yea iirc a lot of training involved endurance

[sullen charm]

I personally am not very tall,and my waist naturally isnt rly slim

[robust tendon]

cause obviously you need that for a real battle where you'd be fighting for extended periods

[terse bronze]

stand sraight and press on your natural waist, just above your hipbones

[sullen charm]

I'd guess that knights back then were able to run 10km without too much trouble

[terse bronze]

1490 -1495 Vienna (Austria), WS A111, armour of Gianfrancesco Gonzaga I., count of Rodigo and Sabbioneta, or Rodolfo Gonzaga, marquis of Castiglione delle Stiviere
Lombardy

probably not this one

[dim mauve]

Im 6'5 and about 75kg so im very much the right build for armour.

[robust tendon]

it helps that u have a horse to do a lot of the running, though this is not always true in the case of the english in certain time periods

[terse bronze]

bro used imperial and metric in the same sentence

[sullen charm]

Someone get this boiler off the battlefield

[dim mauve]

yea im english i use both interchangeably

[sullen charm]

man im built much bulkier than that

im 5'9 and 80kg

[dim mauve]

almost everyone is

i was medically underweight until fairly recently

[sullen charm]

small waist pretty face with a big bang

[prisma raven]

doesn't make sense

[terse bronze]

lol

[dim mauve]

Full plate armour = skirt & super thin waist.

what did they mean by this

[sullen charm]

get vibe checked

[robust tendon]

it's peak

[robust tendon]

bifurcated maille mittens my beloved

[silver heart]

HOLY KINOOOO

[silver heart]

a dude i follow on pinterest has a whole board just dedicated to those

[robust tendon]

me btw

[dim mauve]

Waiting for them to figure out how to make some sort of graphene composite armour that resists ballistic weapons so if a massive war happens well all be doing it in armour again.

[robust tendon]

could u post it

[sullen charm]

teenage mutant ninja turtles

[terse bronze]

This portrait by Botticelli is insane to me

[dim mauve]

were these made for a velociraptor?

[prisma raven]

maybe

[sullen charm]

ngl i noticed the difference in facial structure ppl had before and today

[prisma raven]

duro

[sullen charm]

I cant explain it but i see it

[robust tendon]

ppl don't give enough credit to medieval artists

assuming that's still considered medieval tho

[terse bronze]

Him and Vittore Carpaccio are my favorite 15thc renaissance italian artists

[sullen charm]

this me

also its 1am so goodnight

[terse bronze]

more of botticelli

[sullen charm]

btw does anyone know what r the carpets in wip reffering to?

Whats their point in HS

[robust tendon]

props..?

cool stuff

idk

[dim mauve]

I think people in general sort of assume it all looks something like this.

[robust tendon]

love the first pic with the sash

[sullen charm]

i thought maybe u can like wrap it around your offhand while dueling

[terse bronze]

Coolstuff..club.. haha

[dim mauve]

augh the people i bought my brigandine from had a brig like that last image but it was like 1.5k

i wanted it so much

[robust tendon]

no wya...

[lone osprey]

going by art periodization he's renaissance if you split periods into medieval/middle ages. periods are pretty silly though anyway

[robust tendon]

truth nuke

i've seen people use the renaissance to describe like 1490-1600 ish

when it was an art thing...

[dim mauve]

Ive always just thought of the cutoff from medieval to renaissance to be the end of the war of the roses.

[terse bronze]

in my headcannon the medieval era stops at 1453 with the fall of constantinople, I think it's poetic to make the period start and end with the fall of the roman empire

[dim mauve]

maybe thats very england-centric idk

[terse bronze]

that's just me doe

[robust tendon]

i just call the 16th century early modern, maybe that would extend to 1600 and onwards but past 1600 it seems like straight up modern and not "early" modern

[terse bronze]

some will say it ends in 1400, others in 1492 with the americas expedition idk

for me it's 1453

[next orchid]

wappenroc = "arming frock" or "frock of arms". since its "wambeis" oder "wappenroc", the wappenroc is also probably pourpointed

[terse bronze]

frock lol

[next orchid]

ty discord for staying scrolled up for no reason 🙏

[robust tendon]

i frock with it

[terse bronze]

we say frock to familiarly talk about underwear

in france i mean

or froc more like

[next orchid]

silly french

[terse bronze]

le froc.. 😎

[robust tendon]

actually rlly like that definition

[next orchid]

then again the longass under shirts are basically frocks

[robust tendon]

it is poetic

[next orchid]

lame ass poem

1500 cuz its already arbitrary

[terse bronze]

Apparently "froc" refers to the monk's robes first

[next orchid]

truthers put the end of the medieval period at the death of pietro monte though

[terse bronze]

before becoming underwear

[next orchid]

it basically just meant coat

[dim mauve]

"fall of the roman empire" 😏

[terse bronze]

truthers prime know pietro monte never existed actually

[next orchid]

another swordcel L

[robust tendon]

pietro monte is a psyop

[terse bronze]

why can't I say this

[robust tendon]

lol

[next orchid]

what the shigma

[vocal vale]

brainrot filter

[dim mauve]

what the sigmar

[terse bronze]

shrigma male

🍄

[next orchid]

shroomer

[dim mauve]

hung up on gnomes

[lone osprey]

i think renaissance periodization can get especially silly with the lack of consensus. historians will also claim some thing is like a quintessential renaissance feature!!1! and then it appears in something 'medieval' or 'gothic'.

i guess the words are useful to refer to some identifiable patterns in a casual way but not for precision.

[dim mauve]

depends on the country

i think for europe as a whole its about 1500 which is a nice number to end the medieval period on

[terse bronze]

during the 13thc gothic architecture was called french architecture btw just learned that a couple days ago

banger

[vocal vale]

le banger

[lone osprey]

tell that to russian iconographers

[turbid shadow]

luh calm fit

[terse bronze]

dripped

[dim mauve]

why 😌

[next orchid]

renaissance is a specific thing

and for each country it differs

early modern is more used for a consistent period

[turbid shadow]

eep (Schlafender Wächer, Dom Erfurt 1475)

[left coral]

Yo we’re fighting over this in general chat let’s hear the expert’s opinions

@lucid prairie @vocal vale bring it to the ring mfs

https://tenor.com/view/ring-ring-the-bell-ding-ding-ding-ding-round1-gif-27369053

FIGHT

[lucid prairie]

Oh god please don’t drag me in here I’ll get eaten alive

[vocal vale]

he concedes

[lucid prairie]

Nvm

We fighting

[vocal vale]

in general the body is late 15th iberian and the helmet is early 16th owl faced sallet but it doesn’t much have a tail

[lucid prairie]

I will argue for hours over something I know nothing about because fuck you

[vocal vale]

[lucid prairie]

So basically I’m right

You’re wrong

[lone osprey]

if any of those painted sallets were ever actually painted around the time they were made, i reckon it would only be for festivities like https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=schembartbuch&title=Special:MediaSearch&type=image
or maybe tournaments if grotesque visors are anything to go off of. but to my knowledge theres 0 evidence of them in or painted to be in combat

[prisma raven]

What part of the body is late 15th century Iberian?

[vocal vale]

crayfish

are those later ?

also the scalloped shoulders

[prisma raven]

uh I just know one Iberian example of crayfish armor, most ones are french and german

iirc

[vocal vale]

yes you are right

i just checked the ones i was remembering and they're from like switzerland and stuff

idk why i thought they were an iberian thing

[prisma raven]

it's ok, there's nothing too Iberian or exclusively iberian on that harness. The design is neat tho

[vocal vale]

'tis

[silver heart]

what the fuck happened in this channel😭

[silver heart]

is there any particular name for these coats worn over breastplates? i’ve seen them a lot in art

[terse bronze]

Honestly?

Looks fucking baller dude

[terse bronze]

(cuirass is french-german)

oh wait cama replied

why isn't the messages scrolling down automatically!!!

[terse bronze]

Schecke

[left coral]

https://tenor.com/view/heydoubleu-studytogether-widepeepohappy-peepo-peepohappy-gif-18531858

Yippie!

[terse bronze]

To come back to this, I think the cape is a bit lame imo and the the horse tail is ugly but other than that it's very good fantasy except a couple details here and there that you could always nitpick, but you can tell the artist used historical & reproductions references for it which in the end make it look like awsome low fantasy

[left coral]

Yeah that’s basically the goal! Grounded yet fantastical.

[terse bronze]

Armor by Georges Jolliot
Book by Nicolas Philippe Baptiste

[lone osprey]

think schecke usually refers to another item of clothing and the gown with skirt over armour usually wappenrock or just rock. at least around the turn of the 16th century. christopher retsch has a good analysis of sources with 'schecke, wams, joppe' in them

[terse bronze]

Honestly you could literally even call it surcoat and it wouldn't be uncorrect lol

[lone osprey]

to me, for the gown with skirt over armour in german context specifically, wappenrock seems to strike the best balance of what is used in the literature + what seems to appear in primary sources

[terse bronze]

Awesome

[lone osprey]

whereas i see schecke and wams like

I think Matthaus also refers to Wams as the upper component of his Wappenrock but I might be re-g-arded

[terse bronze]

"late" in french

:)

But ok good to know actually

I've just seen schecken used by german speaking reenactors a lot more in the 15thc than waffenrock/rock/wams ect

[lone osprey]

that's fair and I'm totally fallible and might have just never encountered the sources they have

[ancient pivot]

This is the same harness I gave to the artist as reference. As for the cape and horse tail, I sadly have to work off of descriptions from the book lol. Also the horse tail is supposed to be strips of cloth, it just wasn't detailed so looks more like hair

[terse bronze]

You could make the horse hair start from the top of his head no?

[ancient pivot]

Could do, we just didn't have much to work with and that's what we ended up with

Can always change it when I get to making it in 3d

[terse bronze]

type shit

[thorny otter]

Nicolas mentioned, time to post his armour

[terse bronze]

He's awesome

Got one of his book at home

Well, the one I posted actually lol

[thorny otter]

which one it is? I dont think i have it

[terse bronze]

i don't have this one I should buy it

[thorny otter]

thanks! I will check the possibilities

btw the one on popcultural inspiration in real artifacts is also great

https://www.amazon.com/Pop-Arm-Fantastique-armures-mondes-imaginaires/dp/2884744207

[terse bronze]

Oh yeah i've seen bits and pieces of that thing on his FB a while ago

the book is expensive as shit tho

[lone osprey]

love this one and whoever has that tourney helm on

[bright token]

Beautiful kastenbrust armour 🥹

[terse bronze]

@vocal vale

[silver heart]

is it based off this helm?

[lost pawn]

this is a master peice

[dim mauve]

It really is.

[lost pawn]

the people who made the morgan bible can only WISH for something like this

[fleet junco]

omg his head is on fire

[thorny otter]

More of uber's kit then

[silver heart]

@thorny otter is that first smellas helm based on this?

[terse bronze]

I really doubt it

[silver heart]

gotcha

[vocal vale]

only the visor really relates

it is a very odd armet to be sure

[silver heart]

saltshaker hehehe

[lone osprey]

crests or riot

[lone osprey]

i thought this was right at first but yeah the repro looks different closer up like the visor shape and bevor etc

[lost pawn]

that looks so beautiful

[fleet junco]

when cuirass wip

[verbal bramble]

Do we know the approximate year this is from?

[terse bronze]

1450-60s

[lone osprey]

[wintry dock]

I know this isn't within the time period but are there any historical examples of this kind of helmet? I haven't ever seen anything like it except in this painting

[lone osprey]

sort of
these are called Schallerkombination by the Kunsthistorisches museum. dunno if the bevors actually collapse like in Rubens painting though

[lone osprey]

I need the hoquetons/scheckes/rocks
with good physics

[robust tendon]

that painting is 17th century so i doubt it's particularly accurate to the guy it's trying to depict (Maximillian I who died in 1519)

painting itself was made in 1618

[lone osprey]

they actually re-identified it as being his son Philip the Handsome. they thought it was maximilian originally from the sort of hook nose and armour. probably inspired by this portrait

for genealogical portraits courts would do research and re-use attributes from older portraiture / graves etc

[robust tendon]

explains the heraldry on his base/skirt

[lone osprey]

yeah also royal crown rather than imperial hoop crown

[silver heart]

leafy spear:3

[terse bronze]

Nice reference pictures but are you sure they fit the timeframe?

[loud stirrup]

i couldn’t post anywhere else🙏😭😭

[terse bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/dbz-discord-gif-24306382

[void stream]

well since it's not in the game's time period I'll delete it

so they don't keep saying “it's not in the game time period”

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/710505734282018889/1305603431540461579/2024-11-11_214100427.gif

[fleet junco]

add segmenatnaa

[fleet junco]

gfghfghfghdhdd

[civic glade]

Boy got the stormtrooper special

[lone osprey]

its hank halfsword

[bright token]

Is he wearing a bascinet or closehelm/armet? love his kit a lot but it’s probably stuff that predate arms and armour in the game

[fleet junco]

thats a biicqoue

Or whatever its called

I forgot how to spell it

[lone osprey]

thought it was like this type of close helmet or whatever but different not sure though
https://www.armorysmith.com/dospehi/close-armet-griffon/

[bright token]

Very nice

[vocal vale]

close helm

visor and bevor pivot are shared

[drowsy jewel]

Can someone please be a trooper and give me a few clean front screenshots of the 3rd to first armor class with the axe please

I need them for references

[drowsy jewel]

From the game

[vocal vale]

this is not the channel to ask such

[vocal vale]

this is fantasy

[echo quartz]

my bad

[verbal bramble]

I am aware this is neither arms nor armor, but did trestle tables with decoration like this one exist by the time period of Half Sword? I've seen some depictions of the time period (second half of the 15th century) with trestle tables that were similar in construction, but I didn't find any decorated like this one

[fleet junco]

john

[void stream]

Wrong channel friend

[autumn tinsel]

https://preview.redd.it/ha6qciwvzp391.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=efe20b86bdb4f22403ef86537d295ea25dab44e7

Is this armor real?

[terse bronze]

quite, but not from the game's period

[autumn tinsel]

Have any idea if this specific set had a name?

[terse bronze]

It's just 16th tourney armors

[autumn tinsel]

Nice, thank you

[verbal bramble]

That's not fitting for the time period

[terse bronze]

or the zone

also what the fuck is this fever dream of an image

Golden horde/persian dude with .. Nordic runes for some reasons..?????

Are those even real runes

[grave rain]

These are Turkish armors and weapons used from 209 BC to the 14th and 15th centuries. Therefore your argument is wrong.

[verbal bramble]

Huh... I didn't recognize it. I am not sure if the devs would accept it since the game is focused in 15th Century Europe, but eh

[terse bronze]

I still don't understand why the runes on a turk/mongol/persian whatever armor

[prisma raven]

Emperor Friedrich III from Wiener Neustadt (1453)

[grave rain]

The aim here is not to add Turkish/Mongol armors directly to the game. After all, since it is a game that lasted between 1450 and 1470, I would like to see a dlc or a separate game mode developed in this style in the future.

The important thing here is to be able to think creatively and come up with different things without sticking to a single definitive idea.

[terse bronze]

read it again

Still don't understand why the drawing has runes on it

[grave rain]

read it again

[robust tendon]

as if you can't be creative with west europe

[grave rain]

Emperor Frederick III, who took refuge with the Hungarians because she was afraid of the Turks and fled to Linz when Vienna was occupied

I love this man, he is a true legend

[verbal bramble]

I guess I wasn't that far off with the trestle table I posted, those decorations very much remind me of it

[old fulcrum]

I can only guess it's some cuman who travelled up north to at least denmark

Either that or some dude bring word of them up north and someone depicted it

[terse bronze]

what kind of fantastical scenario is that lol

[old fulcrum]

idfk, cumans are mercenaries, they travel a lot, who wouldnt say a deserter would've wandered up there, i doubt the bohemians want them, and i feel like germans would be wary of them, so the nordics might be a good spot cuz i doubt they'd be scared or uneased by one

[vocal vale]

can you point me to some historical documents you have on them

[old fulcrum]

unironically most of my info comes from kingdom come, but it seems like most info on them is at the latest in 1250

but if kingdom come is correct, a good bunch are mercenaries that mutiny after their captain is killed

[terse bronze]

Kcd is infact incorrect on a lot of things

Including cumans and notably their gear

[terse bronze]

The 15thc Nordics that still used runes and somehow are welcoming of late 14thc "cuman" with geographically Russian/Ukrainian gear

Very fantastical

On the topic of Nordics

[lone osprey]

reckon the new cuirass is based on the glasgow museum one?

[autumn tinsel]

Does anyone know the exact armet helm used in halfsword?

It’s lookin close to an Italian armet but couldn’t be sure

[lone osprey]

i thought it might have been this royal armouries one but the visor in halfsword seems to come further out, unfortunately, so maybe not

[autumn tinsel]

Hm, so maybe halfsword made their own custom one with historical looks?

[lone osprey]

no idea, I'm sure someone more knowledgable could identify the HS one. but whatever it's based on that part seems to out out more than most

[autumn tinsel]

Yeah, that’s interesting. I’ll have to do some more searching on it.

[silver heart]

@autumn tinsel this may prove suitable in discerning it

[lone osprey]

i reckon its that long ass churburg one

[autumn tinsel]

Oh very nice, I’ll take a look at this. Appreciate it though

[vocal vale]

8th one here

[autumn tinsel]

There we go, awesome

Churburg armet is probably my new favorite helm

[vocal vale]

the churburg harness that is often displayed with it is also the armor in half sword

the harness of galeazzo d’arco

[autumn tinsel]

The middle one appears to be it

[autumn tinsel]

Or atleast this one looks to be paired with a churburg armet

[vocal vale]

yep

willie half sword in all his glory

[vocal vale]

the churburg armet

well

there’s multiple

churburg is just the place, there’s varying armets there

[lone osprey]

this fills me with hope that we'll see the von Matsch bascinet with the cool visor

[autumn tinsel]

Ohh i didn’t realize that. I always thought when they gave it names it was a type of armet

[vocal vale]

byeah

[vocal vale]

its a bit tricky because some forms of helms are named after locations they were found, like pembridge, dargen-pommern, but when it comes to the fifteenth century it’s a bit less prevalent for academic purposes

styles are mostly classified by general shape related to the time they were used (early, late) or features (like high crown, with wrapper, etc)

occam’s razor most of the time, do what feels right and people will get it usually

[autumn tinsel]

Okay that makes more sense.

Yeah, I find armor identifying to be really tricky for someone myself not knowing much about it.

Thanks for explaining helm stuff though👍

[real haven]

LET NOT THEE HAND BE HEAVY UPON ME!

[astral dock]

Shared from Sketch Heads

[dim mauve]

@clever bramble Heya, this is the poleaxe project I've been working on that I mentioned in dms. Thought I might as well see if I can get your opinion on it as it'll be a short while before I can finish the project then sort my portfolio and everything out due to irl circumstances. 😅

Would you say this fits the criteria for historically accurate equipment?

(would have sent in Dms but the image is too large)

[dim mauve]

On a purely technical level I might need to fix up that blade edge a tad bit.

That hole in the axe is just a cheeky opacity map by the way since I wanted the axe mesh itself to be as low poly as possible (846 tris)

[rancid widget]

that looks awesome dude. FYI it's easier to check accuracy if you cite what you used as reference (museum piece, modern forged piece, illustration, etc.)

[dim mauve]

It's just a 3d recreation of my poleaxe.

[rancid widget]

nice! and the weaponsmith who made your poleaxe, what did he use as reference material?

[dim mauve]

I'll have to get back to you on that, the poleaxe was second hand.

[rancid widget]

no need, im no expert to judge or anything, I just told you cause thats how its usually done in terms of checking for historical accuracy afaik

[dim mauve]

Ik ik, I've managed to find many different examples of almost identical poleaxes although most of them have spikes coming out of the sides. Not all of them but most of them. Honestly though other than the lack of side spikes it's a suuuper generic poleaxe.

Blade is more curved near the tip usually too as you can see.

Hammer appears less wide on alot of these too

Ill have to find out if anyone knows who made my particular poleaxe

Since the only reference I used for the poleaxe was my actual poleaxe and photos of it from before I grinded the sharp edges off.

[sonic glacier]

is there any good places to find like a catalogue of what medieval french foot soldiers would've worn, in accuracy?

I'm trying REALLY hard to find stuff for them but theres not a whole lot and i don't know enough to tell whats right and wrong

[terse bronze]

What period?

[sonic glacier]

anywhere from 1450 to 1470

[terse bronze]

Do you understand written french

[sonic glacier]

unfortunately no 😭

[terse bronze]

I also suggest taking a look at " @Eol4242 " on twitter, he's a french artist really knowledgeable on medieval things as a whole but especially french sources, he made several drawings about it and even a megathread on the armor of the french gendarme with sources. He also worked on most of these PDFs, I myself helped for the first

[sonic glacier]

oh my god thank you my goat

literal savior

[terse bronze]

you can also check the most famous french/burgundian illuminated manuscript online on the french national library website (BNF),
by typing those names directly on google, it should direct you to the bnf website to the corresponding manuscript

Also feel free to look up "bnf" , "french" or other keywords in this channel, a lot have been posted already

[bright token]

Are those gardbraces on the knight's pauldrons?

[copper loom]

guys i need some help... is this real?:

[dim mauve]

I asked about this in my reenactment group Facebook and yes, yes it is.

[verbal bramble]

Yep, this is from a real period drawing. This is a maille brayette

[copper loom]

😭

[terse bronze]

Yes they're a sidegrade to maille skirts, so since they're shaped like braies they're called maille braies/braies of maille

[terse bronze]

brayette only refers to a specific part of a braie(clothing)

word that gave us (french) the word braguette

this part ..!

[verbal bramble]

Huh... I didn't found anything when looking for maille braies. My bad.

[terse bronze]

It's a case of "the popular name isn't the correct historical term" yknow

[verbal bramble]

Fair. Doesn't help the fact I am pretty bad with terminology

I need more time to know the terms, and I prob should write them down somewhere

[terse bronze]

in texts they are often called "braies d'acier" meaning steel braies

here, "steel" alone is to be understood as maille

[silver heart]

more articulated gorget posting:3

[bright token]

I’ve seen this one considered as French sallet, is it correct?

Also thank you for providing pic of 15tg century gorget, Ser Brewvi 🙏

[silver heart]

np! fella i follow on pinterest has a board dedicated to em if you want me to send it to ya!

[silver heart]

english sallet

[fleet junco]

how can you differwncaiate between english, italian, french and german style of armor

[vocal vale]

is this a genuine question

[fleet junco]

yeah

i forgot i think, life caught up

[lone osprey]

Maternity wear ref about time

[lone osprey]

Reckon if you open up Oakshott you can an adequate answer for that flipping through his diagrams

[vocal vale]

is that anton stark

[prisma raven]

Yes

[vocal vale]

argued with that guy over pedantic upper cannon fluting from the moment i woke up to the moment i ate lunch one day

love the guy

[valid venture]

i want this straight into the game

[dim mauve]

Every reenactment group has this guy in it.

[robust tendon]

gamberson under plate armor

smh

[north notch]

That's one of the narrowest eye slits i've ever seen on a sallet

[lucid gale]

germanic sallets were having a tail that slooped downwards protecting the neck better along the sides [of the sallet] it was straight there was less of a thing that pointed outward at the visor
this guy is wearing a germanic sallet

[frosty scarab]

Reading my mind

[lucid gale]

nah

we need longbows

[terse bronze]

How would they fit in a tourney setting

[sullen charm]

Add the atlatl

[robust tendon]

iirc the devs want to do like small skirmishes and not just tourney stuff

so they could fit there

also idk for sure but i’d think there were archery based competitions or something like that

[dim mauve]

"I should have spent more time arguing online".

[terse bronze]

fuck yeah

[terse bronze]

Yeah but shooting at targets for practice

every sunday or some shit like that

[prisma raven]

The Munderkingen Passion attributed to the Swabian school around 1473, Church of St. Dionysius, southern Germany

[fleet junco]

Is this italian, english or french

Is this italian, english or french

i shrimply cannot tell

especially with the exports

[swift gale]

swiss

[fleet junco]

i like the first one

I like all of them

[prisma raven]

That configuration it's more common in French territories and in England

[fleet junco]

Ts confuses me....

[weak halo]

The sallet/bascinet mix in the last picture tickles my brain

[terse bronze]

English greatbascinet

there's a chance it was used in France as well in the 1430s

[weak halo]

Most likely, don't forget that the English Kingdom at one point had a foothold in Northern France

[terse bronze]

this is my chance to repost this italian made "french style" harness that was commissioned by a German Count

[fleet junco]

Must be italian

[prisma raven]

Sir Thomas Fettiplace (1395-c.1442)

[weak halo]

Is it from a specific illumination or from a survival?

[weak halo]

That is something alright

Very special

[terse bronze]

Mainly from effigies iicr

[weak halo]

His gauntlets also tickle me

Love transitional armor

[terse bronze]

1433-1434, BL Harley 2278 Lives of Saints Edmund and Fremund, British Library.

[prisma raven]

Love that ms

[terse bronze]

Binfield Church, Berkshire, England.

[weak halo]

Love bascinets/great-bascinets with rounded visors

The snoof

[terse bronze]

An English knight by Eol

[prisma raven]

duro

two swords and a dagger

[fleet junco]

They really must love that bascinet visor

[weak halo]

Most people don't like bascinets because of the visors but personally I think that they're the goat

[fleet junco]

isnt the visor like a grappling point

[prisma raven]

Bascinets without a visor are the best 😏

[weak halo]

Why you let the enemy grab you smh

[fleet junco]

idk, they just sort of did it for like 1 second

[weak halo]

Visorless + orle is undeniably sexy AF true

[terse bronze]

I will kill you

[sonic zephyr]

Yo guys why i cant see playtest version of half sword?

[fleet junco]

Kevlar help him

[prisma raven]

I don't really like orles in bascinets, but ye true

[terse bronze]

this guy is literally me like that's a selfie

[prisma raven]

erm..

[terse bronze]

Innocent and Pretty

wonder who the artist is.. if you know lmk..

Innocent and Pretty

[silver heart]

prior to locking visors? yes

[fleet junco]

Amazing

[fleet junco]

I like this one

[silver heart]

pointy couters and large besagews are a beloved combo

[civic glade]

Not really. People say this about houndskulls but in practice theres no way you can really wrap your hand around it. You might be able to give it a push, but you can push on peoples heads anyway

[civic glade]

Thats fiore isnt it?

[fleet junco]

#references♥_1450-1470 message

[silver heart]

indeed, from the pollaxe section of the getty manuscript

[fleet junco]

I do know!

I wonder if the lamce rest could be used as a grappling point

If the user of said lance rest just left it oit

[civic glade]

I really like fiore, spent a good while working through his manuscript, but some of the stuff he says can be kinda kookey. Like one in a million in terms of using it in an actual unchoreographed fight

[silver heart]

me and @vocal vale are both novice studiers of his likeness

[civic glade]

Its a fun read. Fiore comes across as like completely paranoid in some passages

[silver heart]

honestly, given all the near death encounters he came upon? i can't blame him whatsoever

[grave rain]

The Turks have used their own runic alphabet (Göktürk Alphabet) throughout history. There is no direct connection between the Turkish Runic Alphabet and the Scandinavian Runes; such a name was given only because the letters look similar. Today, it is seen as an important part of the Turkish cultural identity.

[grave rain]

At the same time, let us close your knowledge gap

[terse bronze]

Didn't know! That's epic!

Kinda weird but cool

Apparently it was used up until the 13thC however

which is a bit early for that depiction

But cool to know 👍

[grave rain]

Yes I agree with you

[vocal vale]

this isn’t the channel for such

[vocal vale]

that is not what boobs look like

[void stream]

at this point you are just trolling

[lucid gale]

i need a better angle of the sallet

[fleet junco]

No

[lucid gale]

because that guy whos wearing the sallet has the visor lifted

i cant tell the difference too clearly

[fleet junco]

im not going to correct you because yeah

But ill find it

[lucid gale]

btw

its not a sallet hes wearing

hes wearing a close helm

[lucid gale]

this one looks like it most likely is germanic

[lucid gale]

close helm styles were different according to how the knight wanted the helmet

[lucid gale]

hes not even wearing armor

[fleet junco]

doesnt need to wear armor

[lucid gale]

this is a germanic sallet

[fleet junco]

that looks pretty germanic

[lucid gale]

as you can see

yep

that part where the visor meets the skull of the helmet is smooth and is not potruding out

this is a french

[fleet junco]

thats uhm

Armstreet but ok

[lucid gale]

or italian

but look at the difference

the visor is potruding outwards nad it has no tail

[lucid gale]

this has a tail at the back

[lucid gale]

this has a more skull like appearence at the back where it curves inwards

[lucid gale]

it also has no tail

[fleet junco]

the tail

[lucid gale]

yep

the back of the helmet to protect the back of the wearers neck

this one is not histrically accurate

they say its a germanic

but its not

most likely english

[zenith forge]

I love close helms!!!

[lucid gale]

noice

they were good helmets

but the reason they were called close helms is because it sat closely on your head

[zenith forge]

Yeap

[lucid gale]

also the bevor the visor and the smaller visor would pivot on the metal skewers on the sides

this one is a 16th century

close helmet

this is a gothic [germanic] full plate armor

its my fav

typical steryotype of a knights helmet

[vocal vale]

he's wearing an armet, it hinges at the cheeks

[vocal vale]

seems english to me

[lucid gale]

maybe

[vocal vale]

only post things that fit in the time period of half sword

also dont use armstreet or other vendors like that as a source

[vocal vale]

also where did you get this from

[lucid gale]

an image

looks fancy doesnt it

[vocal vale]

im asking you where you got "it's called a close helm because it sits closely on your head" from

[lucid gale]

i know bro

i read about it

[vocal vale]

if it was in the comments of a youtube video or short it was probably somebody making things up

close helms dont fit closely to your head more than any other kind of helmet

[lucid gale]

they somewhat

[vocal vale]

why do you say that

sorry im just now reading everything

[lucid gale]

bruh

it may have a tail

but its not germanic

[vocal vale]

all sallets have tails

[lucid gale]

not all

[vocal vale]

that is literally the point of a sallet

if you mean articulated tails then no not all of them have that

[lucid gale]

italian sallets had tails to small to stretch downwards

unlike the germanic

[vocal vale]

why do you peg that one as english

[lucid gale]

because it has that potruding part at the tip of the visor

which

germanic sallets usually didnt have

[vocal vale]

the articulated tail is pretty much an exclusively german thing

dont recall seeing any english sallet with anything like that

it is 100% based off a german one though in terms of the profile and the articulation

it's best not to dwell on crappy off the shelf things anyways

[lucid gale]

youre right

[vocal vale]

english sallets pretty ubiquitously have this conehead and brief tail

[lucid gale]

byt that sallet

[lucid gale]

like i said its not historically saccurate

[vocal vale]

bottom line is try to post extant pieces or in-period artwork

[lucid gale]

ya

and every so called 'medival fan' thinks that the great helm is the best helmet

[sullen charm]

Everyone knows the frog mouth helmet is the superior one :3

[terse bronze]

?????

[lucid gale]

hate to crash the party but frogmouths were never used in combat only in jousts

[sullen charm]

That's why I said it lol

Was meant as a joke rather than something serious

[lucid gale]

you are right though

[sullen charm]

Of course I am

It's awesome

[lucid gale]

yes it is

btw

my friend is scrared of frogs

[sullen charm]

Damn

They're cute though

[lucid gale]

they are

i dont know why hes scared of them

[sullen charm]

I mean unless someone was messing with them when they were young using a frog. Probably an irrational fear

[lucid gale]

yep

[mental sky]

nice

[terse bronze]

Ok so i'm finally back from work, this is a larp helmet, very ugly and misshaped but it is undeniably german inspired.

[terse bronze]

Again, ugly repro but undeniably "italian export" /"west european" in design. (France, Spain, England, Burgundy, Flanders..) But such design (the historical one) also do show up in modern germany, ironically, it doesn't show up that much if at all in Italy. Because this design was not really prefered by italians but by French-Flanders and such

1. Miniature of the Babenberger's Stammbaum (family tree), 1489-1492 showing a light cavalryman wearing a hosen with maille strips
2. Georg Potschner in suit of armor with his sons, Caspar and Walthauser, 1477. From the Potschner altar in Saint Peters Church, Munich. (18thC? reproduction)
3. Stuttgart LB Cod. theol.2°195 2.) Mandeville, Reise nach Jerusalem fol 107v Bildseite: Jean de Mande-ville zu Pferd.
4. Munderkinger Passion, 1473

[terse bronze]

ca. 1470-1480 - 'equestrian armour', maybe Nürnberg, Kaiserburg, Nürnberg, Bayern, Germany

[terse bronze]

They're pretty cool for their period

'Scenes from the Old and New Testaments', Bamberg, Staatsgalerie, Bamberg, Bayern, Germany (1470-1475). Interesting how the rear riders schecke seems to be slotted to allow for the lance rest. Especially since he seems to be serving as a mounted crossbowman.

"Cavalry," by Master of the Death of Saint Nicholas of Münster, 1470-80. Detail.

not sure about the source

[verbal bramble]

That, or trauma with frogs

[tiny valve]

Is that a Coventry Sallet

[fleet junco]

i think its a helmet

[wintry dock]

I've seen this gothic harness in this channel before from the vischers statue of otto iv of henneberg and the couter and the way it attaches to the vambrace seems fairly novel to me. I've never seen it on any real historical examples apart from this statue and the above artwork which seems to be ripping straight from the statue. Wondering if anyone's seen anything like it in some real examples before

To be honest the layering of the lames seems to be in an impractical direction since most crumpling articulation lames are ordered with the one closest to the joint being the bottom one rather than this which seems to be the opposite

[fleet junco]

This?

[wintry dock]

Looks right hehe

Is it based on an actual source other than the statue though?

[fleet junco]

ask kevlar

hes smart

[wintry dock]

@terse bronze ?

[terse bronze]

I don't think i've seen anything looking like that on other effigies sorry

[terse bronze]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/albums/
http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.21487.html

however here's some links if you wanna take a look

[wintry dock]

Big thanks

Where do you usually dig all this stuff up?

You seem to have links and shit for everything

[terse bronze]

look at this cool guy doe

[terse bronze]

just picking stuff up during the journey man..

[wintry dock]

d r i p

[fleet junco]

Pinter or facebook

[terse bronze]

yeah there's helpful groups on facebook unironically

And pinterest can be really good but you have to know how and where to look

[wintry dock]

Probably because their age range was born around 1618

[wintry dock]

Yeah there seems like a lot of garbage to get through for the good stuff

[terse bronze]

https://ca.pinterest.com/tbiliter/
https://ca.pinterest.com/macs_shop/

2 of my favs accounts

[wintry dock]

Danke

I think I've seen those two posting similar stuff on Instagram actually

[terse bronze]

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised

[verbal bramble]

Mac is such a great armorer too

Now that we are on the topic of sallets, I am curious: Where is this sallet from Half Sword from? Does it have any direct references:

The visor looks english to me, but other than that...

[fleet junco]

its from europe around the 1450s to 1470s

[terse bronze]

https://www.facebook.com/flarchevequearmourer/posts/pfbid02nM6nfbETicmMDZzNzWXuBADMwq1evxgb91cfgYM6umGzRsFVv4DfGyEkbCchPeA4l mayhaps

[verbal bramble]

Hmm... So more italian-like, I suppose

[terse bronze]

It's not impossible that it was made for export in germany

[terse bronze]

Like I mentioned here

Those sallets can be italian made but not fit the italian style

[verbal bramble]

So it was made in italy for the german market?

[terse bronze]

Made in italy for the mainly western european market

in the west european style

[verbal bramble]

So Iberia, Burgundy, France and Flanders?

[terse bronze]

And England

And the german market aswell, it's called alla tedesca when it's italian made with german influence for the german market

[verbal bramble]

Oh yeah- I have heard of Alla Tedesca before

[terse bronze]

Btw all those had smith ect, it's just that italy was a big producer of export pieces

[verbal bramble]

Is that style of visor a thing of west europe-

[verbal bramble]

Yep, I am aware of so

[terse bronze]

Well yes, because honestly I can't recall any italian sources mentioning or showing a sallet with a visor

[verbal bramble]

So italians never had a visored sallet, but rather armets?

[terse bronze]

Never say never but they were so popular everywhere and i've yet to see one in italian sources so yeah

Can say they prefered open face sallets (modernly called barbutes) and armets

[verbal bramble]

Hmm... I have looked at barbutas, and they strike me more as their own thing rather than a sallet

[terse bronze]

no they're sallets

the distinction is pretty modern, in period "barbute/barbuta" mostly meant something different whereas sallet/celata always meant a helmet (sallet/barbute/light helms)

in period texts sometimes barbute/barbuta meant a helmet (like a bascinet in the 14thc, or a different helmet in french 1470s sources) but most often than not that was used to describe a bevor or aventail

[robust tendon]

i always liked the term great sallet instead of barbute, i think the met calls them that? Idk

[terse bronze]

idc if you're making the difference today and calling sallets and barbutas different cuz that's whatever, we understand each others as far as you get this ^

• was just telling why I said "modernly called barbutes"

[fleet junco]

Great sallet

[robust tendon]

they are pretty great

[fleet junco]

what about the bellows sallets, they seem pretty similar

[robust tendon]

i don't like those as much as a barbute/great sallet

[terse bronze]

Love those types of sallets

fuck "bellows" sallets

all my homies hate bellows sallets

[robust tendon]

second one goes hard

le pomegranate

or at least that's what I remember the crest being

[terse bronze]

yes

[prisma raven]

c. 1460-1470
https://sammlungenonline.albertina.at/?query=Inventarnummer%3D[DG1926%2F1256]&showtype=record#/query/4f4637a5-d96b-4fab-9ba7-739d393258e6