references♥_1450-1470

[opal ember]

Jousting was all the rage in that period, though

And jousting helmets are full face from what I know

[vocal vale]

they go

over your face

as many helmets do

but they didnt have faces on them

[opal ember]

ah I see

didn't quite read the first message you sent correctly

[vocal vale]

the kind that baldwin wears i've only really seen on roman tournament masks

[opal ember]

it's more decorative than anything else from what I've gathered, no real utility in it so it got ditched?

[vocal vale]

in rome it was used just to look cool for the crowd i believe, and wasnt used in battle (if it were, it would be sparingly)

[opal ember]

Yeah, so basically just showpieces

got you yeah

[vocal vale]

in the 1500s though people began putting faces on their helmets just to flaunt their wealth

though they usually end up looking like animals or nigel thornberry

[opal ember]

big ass head

[vocal vale]

yeah they looked pretty alien

not a fan of the look

this one's the only cool one IMO

[opal ember]

it is

it looks like Elden Ring armour 😭

[vocal vale]

it really does lmao that's exactly what i was just thinking

[opal ember]

while on the topic of ER, are you familiar with Japanese armour and combat equipment?

[vocal vale]

not at all !

[opal ember]

reminded me of this sorta thing

[vocal vale]

yeah that's called a menpo / men-yoroi

the full faced ones were pretty rad but i believe those were also more ceremonial and sparingly used in combat

[opal ember]

they really had a thing for moustaches huh

[vocal vale]

so did europeans

generally mustaches have always been cool

[opal ember]

Watching Iaido being performed in full gear is so neat

[vocal vale]

if you want the european version of that you should check out harnischfechten

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Knrmix6yaH8&list=PLx5FsCHaNNhbAzw2DEZupUOqDg6ZaTDUg

[umbral nimbus]

if u are interested there is harnischfechten in serbia

like once in a while

people around europe come to Smederevo

[opal ember]

we gotta go bro

[umbral nimbus]

Lots of crazy people I must say

[vocal vale]

we're gettin a bit off topic

[opal ember]

I wanna ask you a couple things, since this isn't really the channel for it because it doesn't relate to the game, where could I do it if possible?

[umbral nimbus]

#general-catfish-🐱🐟

[vocal vale]

^^

ask away

@opal ember

[lost zealot]

Gucci armor

[vocal vale]

bit too late for the game

but i do loooove greenwich armor

[lost zealot]

yess

[bright token]

Is the golden plate on his upper right arm attached to the pauldron or is it a separate piece secured with belt?

[humble pagoda]

What is this cap thingy

[lost zealot]

skull cap

[torpid urchin]

Dingus helmet

[lost zealot]

thats what im thinking about

[turbid shadow]

cool harness that has been posted countless of times, still amazing

[spice obsidian]

Unpopular opinion : I prefer 14th kind of harness with a bec de passereau bassinet

[turbid shadow]

well HS is gonna be 1430-1480, those would be a early for the game

[spice obsidian]

I agree just was arguing

[humble pagoda]

In the 16th century, what was the puffy skirt thingy that went on the legs of the ceremony armour

It had 2 color pattern

[lost zealot]

like the one used by this fella ?

[bright token]

Beautiful armet with neat visor forged by Alexey Moskalenko

[terse bronze]

awesome

[lost zealot]

Very cool 😃

[tired pasture]

a base?

except those arent ceremonial

something like in the upper left?

[humble pagoda]

Pants like this but the person wore armour

I found it!

This one!

oh wait, its just a skirt.

But I knew I saw something of the sort

[lost zealot]

god... SO TIGHT AHHHH 😫

[humble pagoda]

I hope they weren't Itchy

[lost zealot]

the photo looks interesting tho

including the clothing

it looks like one of those half armor used in HEMA halfswording

[humble pagoda]

I don't think I've seen those armours yet, could you send an image of one?

[lost zealot]

alr ! let me see for a sec

[lost zealot]

do you mind if the video im going to send is a youtube short ?

[humble pagoda]

Its totally fine!

[lost zealot]

alright if you said so

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/VDuH8_NSVuU

here it is

[humble pagoda]

Ahh ok

[vocal vale]

is "bec de passereau" equivalent to a hounskull?

[vocal vale]

it was also used as armor in the late 16th and 17th centuries for cavalrymen, called a "peascod" and shaped like that to fit the fashion of the time

it is my understanding that more wealthy soldiers would wear peascod styled armor while less wealthy ones would wear something similar to almain rivet

[spice obsidian]

Almost, its our variant « bascinet à museau de chien » basically the same thing with some different details

[vocal vale]

cool!

[terse bronze]

Important to note that bec de passerau ou museau de chien isn't attested in the sources as far as I know

[terse bronze]

Passereau is a sparrow (birb)

pointy beak and allat

[vocal vale]

don’t they all have pointy beaks

what’s the visual difference like

[terse bronze]

between what

anyway those aren't contemporary terms anyway doesn't matter!!!

[vocal vale]

between the silly name and the hounskull name

[vocal vale]

I Know I Just Curious

[terse bronze]

one is in english and the other in french

[vocal vale]

well yeah

i mean do they look slightly different or do they describe the same thing

[terse bronze]

they describe the same thing really

[vocal vale]

Alright

[toxic breach]

Untrue, one was named by me

[turbid shadow]

please keep the references related to the 15th century [1430-1480]

[ancient shale]

Will do! Was unaware references are guided to that specific timeframe.

[stuck sigil]

Hounskul but for the belly

[turbid shadow]

Yeah its alright

[lost zealot]

i know, i already posted a guy that reviewed the peascod belly fashion here

[fleet junco]

Fencer can you find soft kits

[tired pasture]

those are pluderhose

[tired pasture]

that is a base

[humble pagoda]

Italian Great Sallet

[copper nova]

Judgemental ass helmet

[robust tendon]

think that's a barbute

doesn't have any sallet characteristics at all

[humble pagoda]

That's the title of what it said from the "Metropolitan Museum of Art"

I agree with that, it looks very similar to a barbute rather than a sallet

[civic glade]

what are sallet characteristics

[turbid shadow]

Barbutes can classify as sallets

[ancient shale]

Various German* sallet styles:

(Forgot to crop out the last helmet as it’s from 1490)

[humble pagoda]

Yes! Take this one for example. It has some curvature similar to the sallet, but it is not technically a sallet but still can be considered one.

[ancient shale]

That second one is very sallet-like in shape

[civic glade]

ive asked a few time over the months and never got a clear answer, just examples of salets

i remain foggy on what exactly defines them

the only peroperties that seem unique are the sagital crest and nape flange

they share with bascinets being made from a single plate

[terse bronze]

barbutes are sallets

[turbid shadow]

Yeahh

[terse bronze]

topical oc meme

[torpid urchin]

hemlet

[ancient shale]

“Characterized by their horizontal profile and long pointed tail, helmets known as sallets cover the upper half of the face.” Definition by the museum of St. Louis, more fitting to visored sallet.

“The sallet is a helmet which has XIV century Italian origin. At beginning it was in two version- with covered face (barbuta) and without visor (celata)” Definition provided by polish armorer.

The main thing that makes a sallet is the shape. So there is visored sallet, barbuta, and celata, and all are sallet.
Hope this helps a little bit, not the best at explaining 🙂

(celata means sallet if that wasn’t clarified, sorry for longish posting)

[ancient shale]

Use of this style Hungarian saber dates from 9th to the late 15th century. These ones are from around 1450-80. Would love to see Sabres in the game.

[terse bronze]

left one is very reminiscent of a Schiavonesca

[ancient shale]

Yes I agree, the pommel and crossguard are of a very similar nature

Perhaps it originated from the border area of Serbia and Hungary

[terse bronze]

Wouldnt be too far fetched

Byzantine and byzantine-influenced sabers often just look like "classic" swords but with a curved blade

[vital juniper]

HALF LIGE REFERENCE

Life

HALF SWORD 🚫 HALF LIFE ✔️

[terse bronze]

what

[toxic breach]

Helmet on right-hand side in the middle row looks hard asf, did it exist?

[terse bronze]

All these helmets are real, I made sure to only use real stuff

[toxic breach]

So what if I came over to your house?

[terse bronze]

it's know as a "venetian greatbascinet"

[ancient shale]

I like those pauldrons

[fleet junco]

The basketnet from kcd

[bright token]

Sketch of statue of st. George

Not sure if he is depicted wearing German gothic or alla tedesca armour lol

What do you guys think? I believe it’s an alla tedesca style armour

[fleet junco]

I think its italio flemish

[bright token]

Yeah it could be that too 😄

[terse bronze]

It's South German

[bright token]

Peak

[frail goblet]

Guys, All we want this

[finite ermine]

xd

[gentle hill]

Trying to sleep through a nasty storm rn

[fleet junco]

What is this....

[terse bronze]

a pic that goes hard

[eternal rune]

average half sword player

[vocal vale]

these are so rad, wish there were more

they open more like an armet, dont they?

[terse bronze]

well only one of the cheek opens so

and it's not tight fitted around the neck

[vocal vale]

that's weird

[terse bronze]

not that much

[vocal vale]

In My Opinion

i kinda love and hate the way they look

[terse bronze]

I remember a barbute somewhere with a hinged cheek plate

to facilitate aiming a crossbow and whatnot

[vocal vale]

thats really cool

i love archers with cool helmets

[terse bronze]

there it is

[analog tartan]

https://youtu.be/T4fq8agjNqY?si=aMwrJHVDtlCjsRfr

[toxic breach]

Would jagged/sharp couters make sense when paired w/ Avant?

[humble pagoda]

This thing looks cool

[torpid urchin]

do you want me to make that orle

[humble pagoda]

I meannnnn 😏

If u want

medieval armour is soo pretty

[toxic breach]

ikr?

Are there references for multi-colored hose pants? The ones I've come across are mostly one solid color

[ripe flare]

https://fashionhistory.fitnyc.edu/particolored/

One pics in this blog

https://athenaeum.baronyofmadrone.net/exhibits/the-many-mi-parti-variations-in-14th-century-medieval-manuscripts/

This one too

[toxic breach]

omg blessed

[ripe flare]

lots of cool designs ive never seen

[toxic breach]

booty sword

[vocal vale]

1411, cool covered bascinet

[torpid urchin]

Is that a bevor or is it part of the bascinet

[vocal vale]

is what a bevor?

[torpid urchin]

The part that goes over the face

[toxic breach]

It's a quacalois

[vocal vale]

the guy above the dude with the covered bascinet??

[vocal vale]

also could you elaborate on what a quacalois is

[torpid urchin]

this thing

[terse bronze]

that's the first time i've seen it called "quacalois"

first time i'm even seeing this word

[toxic breach]

I just made it up

[toxic breach]

Made it up

[terse bronze]

badass

[torpid urchin]

https://tenor.com/view/patrick-bateman-sigma-joker-lightning-god-patrick-bateman-sigma-edit-gif-11768805784532291762

[vocal vale]

thats an armet

if you're referring to what i think you're referring to?

you might be pointing out the hinged cheek plate?

[torpid urchin]

no, i didn't see that

i should've known since i literally made an armet yesterday 💀

[vocal vale]

[fleet junco]

The robloxian anatomy

[gentle hill]

I really love your models. Are you making a game or just freelance?

[toxic breach]

Alla tedesillia armor type 15th century

[ripe flare]

Do ya know how drew that?

[terse bronze]

looks like that one pedo artist

[turbid shadow]

fuck your right

[terse bronze]

such a shame man

such a shame

[candid dagger]

[turbid shadow]

the crest looked so good

but its made by a guy who likes loli so

[ripe flare]

Wass?

[terse bronze]

ya

[turbid shadow]

holy fuck that harness is reall good

[ripe flare]

Oh sheet didn’t know he was into loli

I really like his art, that’s a shame

[humble pagoda]

Who was?

[turbid shadow]

Hmmm

[golden ingot]

Lil bit of a throwback just as a reminder of its existence

[terse bronze]

those aren't the same type of hosen on these pics but yeah

[golden ingot]

Same concept

Just chainmail incorporated into fabric

[fleet junco]

The tank hosen

[ripe flare]

Wass is a Twitter artist who does some good armor and sexy drawings but these guys are saying he draws loli stuff

Or somethin of that sort

[terse bronze]

The first one isn't maille, it's little plates sewn to the fabric

except like in over the knees then yeah there's a bit of maille there

they're often shown without any maille whatsoever

even sometimes just some plate poleyns

[humble pagoda]

That went over legs? That must have hurt when it was broken right?

[terse bronze]

who knows

but yes that went over the legs

[golden ingot]

There is maille on the first one

[terse bronze]

.

[toxic breach]

This goes extremely hard

[vocal vale]

definitely tedesillya ! haha

[toxic breach]

I'm going to touch you

[stuck sigil]

German Celata goes hard

[terse bronze]

Nothing in this meme is german

[stuck sigil]

Malford the Faceless ahh helmet

[stuck sigil]

its a joke

[terse bronze]

Uh

[golden ingot]

Yea mb didn’t catch that

[golden ingot]

It’s not large enough to be painful to wear, and it’s just fabric over the joints, so it wouldn’t pinch, but they also worse something underneath it because who tf just wears chainmail over bare skin

[fleet junco]

The larpers

They would do that

[turbid shadow]

Kunst des Messerfechtens (Cod.Pal.Germ.430)

Wolfenbüttel Picture Book (Cod.Guelf.78.2 Aug.2º)

[lost zealot]

is the last image a cannon ?

[fleet junco]

Are they fighting blind

[tepid edge]

#work-in-progress message

was there a bascinet in there?

[vocal vale]

no

[tepid edge]

closed helm or armet?

[vocal vale]

yeah its an armet

[tepid edge]

wonder how the the first person will look

[vocal vale]

looks to me to be based off this one

[humble pagoda]

How can you see in this one? It looks like the visor is too upwards

[terse bronze]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhXP9iM_aMQ

[terse bronze]

the visor isn't in its most down position

probably got some shit stuck it the pivots or the currators didn't care about forcing the visor down completely

even then if you tilt your head down a bit, and look up you'll see good

[vocal vale]

how does this man get a new harness like every year lmao

[terse bronze]

Sold his previous one

[vocal vale]

very sexy gear i must say

love the helmet

[gentle hill]

Are these all from the same book

[turbid shadow]

yes

[toxic breach]

Were armets worn without wrappers? Would it make sense for a knight or man at arms to wear an Armet without a wrapper?

[turbid shadow]

yeah?

[obsidian sun]

Alot is historically plausible within reason

[toxic breach]

Okay, makes sense. I was just wondering whether armet wrappers were considered as an inalienable piece to the helmet itself

[vital juniper]

No close helm 🥺🥺

🥹🥺🥺🥺🥺

[vocal vale]

no close helm indeed

[vital juniper]

NOOOOOOOOOOIO

😭🥺

[vocal vale]

well, bicoques were early close helms

we might get those

[vital juniper]

🥲

[vocal vale]

look at how fashionable they are !

[vital juniper]

Good enough

[toxic breach]

Would Avant armor couters look like this when facing the front? The pose I'm going for on second pic. I'm asking since the second pic has different (smaller) couters

[toxic breach]

Perfect, thanks

[terse bronze]

look up Knyght Errant's video on it

cuz the harness isn't complete

[toxic breach]

Yes, I saw it. I always thought the barbute was out of place.

Btw, as I understand it, that armor type was popular throughout Europe despite being produced mostly in Italy?

[terse bronze]

I mean technically a man at arms wearing a barbute as a lighter config is in the realm of the plausible, it's just that this barbute wasn't made for the harness and iicr there is somwhere in collections the matching armet

[terse bronze]

Yeah

thought similar styled harnesses could have been produced in local workshops like in Lyon, France for instance

but it's true that it was hugely popular in the export market

[toxic breach]

That's very good to know I'll keep it in mind when making characters

[terse bronze]

https://x.com/Eol4242/status/1653764675253805059/photo/1 if you have twitter and don't mind a read check this out

Eol (Comms Closed) (@Eol4242) on X

⚔️Armour of a French Man-at-Arms⚔️
🧵 MEGATHREAD I/IV 🧵

Or an attempt at a solid reference sheet for armour pieces and vocabulary from the mid-15th c. in the French-speaking area.

Explanations, sources, translation commentaries and so on. Buckle up (and check alt texts).
1/15

Twitter · May 3, 2023, 2:13 PM

[toxic breach]

ohmygah

[toxic breach]

Could large couters overlap over the torso? If so, is it normal or the sign of defective/improperly-fitted armor?

I just never saw the inner of a couter

[humble pagoda]

What is that part on the cuirass?

What is it, what is its purpose?

[torpid urchin]

Plackart, I think it’s an attachment point for the paunce of plates

Kevlar probably knows

[stuck pelican]

Kevlar knows all

[bright token]

Pair of gauntlets by art of steel

Al antica style arms + shoulders armour crafted by Alexey Moskalenko

[bright token]

Closed sallet made by Maks Izobov I think.

I know it’s outside the game’s timeframe (approximately 1450s-1480s ad right?) but the helmet is dope af

[turbid shadow]

You can use one of the threads to post late 15th century stuff and early 16th century

[bright token]

Got it boss

[bright token]

Are these 1490s gauntlets?

[turbid shadow]

Pretty sure they’re 1480

[bright token]

Ah ok

[turbid shadow]

Or 1470

[bright token]

I have hard time figuring it out lol

[gentle fractal]

Guys this shield is 15th century. But i dunno which type dis shield, help pls.

From Museo Civico Medievale (medieval museum in Bolonia)

[terse bronze]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/andrea_carloni/22713840902

technically pavise

look somewhat similar to tabulaccios but eh

[torpid urchin]

What did they call these guys?

[tepid edge]

Zoomers

[terse bronze]

depends on language

but uhh

gunner idk

[cursive echo]

handgonner 🤓 👆

[humble pagoda]

What is that partial leg armour called?

[terse bronze]

thigh = cuisse
knee = poleyns
shin = greaves

[robust tendon]

1480-90

north italian

[stuck sigil]

Looks like a mixture between transitional gauntlets and late medieval articulated guantlets. I kinda dig it

[vocal vale]

plackart, it's used to both reinforce the breastplate and suspend the paunce of plates

early versions like churburg s18's plackart are less for reinforcement and more for the paunce part

it allows for articulation while still having reinforcement on both your breastplate and the paunce of plates

i've heard that english knights, which often fought dismounted, would remove their plackart because the paunce of plates was so low that it made riding a horse near impossible

[stuck sigil]

What is "paunce" ? First time I even see the word

[ripe flare]

How does the paunch get attached to the plackart?

Paunch of plates is the little metal skirt

Made up of articulating plates

[stuck sigil]

Aren't those faulds ?

[vocal vale]

the historically attested term is paunce of plates i believe

but im sure it depends on region

[vocal vale]

honestly, i dont know! i wish there was one big breakdown of how everything was attached to everything in terms of armor, i really want to learn about all that myself

my guess would be sliding rivets

[ripe flare]

I hate how mixed up the terminology is

[vocal vale]

iirc that's how german plackarts were often suspended

[stuck sigil]

Leather straps were also commonly used to construct faulds

[vocal vale]

yuh'

[ripe flare]

Hmm I’ll do a little research tonight and report back

[vocal vale]

[stuck sigil]

The 3 most common technique to make the faulds I've seen are

1. Sliding rivets
2. Leather strapped faulds
3. Brigandine/Corrazina construction

Wow I had a stroke writing that what the fuck

[humble pagoda]

How are sliding rivets constructed?

[stuck sigil]

Rivets that has room to slide. Idk how to properly explain it cause I'm not native with english

[flat warren]

what!

[stuck sigil]

What

[flat warren]

my bad, i am testing stuff out

mr. klog do you have any idea why i can no longer type in #art-🎨

can YOU type there

i was pinged there and now my messages instantly delete!

am i like shadow banned

[torpid urchin]

You need to attach an image to your post or make a thread

[flat warren]

oh i see

yeah i got pinged there for some reason

[bright token]

Two breastplates, the 2nd one looks like it was made for a knight/man-at-arms

I like this armour 😄

[ancient shale]

I love those rondels, unique style

[stuck sigil]

Unlikely to happen but I would love to have these ingame

Them rondels is such a pleasing sight

[ancient shale]

Remember seeing this picture somewhere, those are definitely unique too, being on the hands

[stuck sigil]

The watermark

[turbid shadow]

these suck

pure larp

[ancient shale]

Interesting, now I know why I was confused why they were on hands

[golden ingot]

Just have them make really fancy bucklers

[vagrant charm]

There were gauntlets with rondels on them, but armstreet just sucks

[ancient shale]

How common was the use of this? It’s definitely something I’ve just learned about, rondels on gauntlets I mean.

[copper nova]

I don't see what's so bad about them
Definitely a little larpy in that photo but surely something similar would've existed?

[tired pasture]

i think it’s just the overall quality of the reproduction

steel, gilding, the lames on the spaulders stuff like that

[terse bronze]

I love this group

[terse bronze]

Also don't recall seeing rondels on hourglass gauntlets at all tbh

[terse bronze]

(this was for tourneys btw)

[tired pasture]

yeah i just noticed that

[terse bronze]

to be honest outside of tourneys gauntlets i've only seen rondels being put on maille mittens

[tired pasture]

unrelated to the game but just curious is the knight on the right wearing poleyns or are those rondels on the sides of his knees?

[copper nova]

Fair enough

[ancient shale]

That would make a lot more sense then, and yeah didn’t seem very practical over a plate mitten, but over mail, a little more useful.

[terse bronze]

Poleyns

[vocal vale]

love this fella

[toxic breach]

DAT WAIST

[humble pagoda]

What type of sallet does he have?

[torpid urchin]

looks like an archer sallet of sorts

[vocal vale]

^

usually they're just called an open face sallet but those with the little nasal curve i usually see referred to as archer sallets

[humble pagoda]

Ohhh

[toxic breach]

Were hose pants suspended from the underwear or shirt/doublet?

Or could it be any of the two? Because on the second pic it looks as though the pants are tied to the shirt.

[tired pasture]

he’s built for german armor

[toxic breach]

truth brother

[torpid urchin]

@toxic breach your knees look half a centimeter low but that could just be me

[toxic breach]

Thanks, I'll note that

[toxic breach]

Is that blued armor?

If so, never saw a blued avant style harness

[robust tendon]

No, it's just to depict reflection

or could possibly be blackened in some cases where the color is really pronounced but this is not one of those

e.g this, but there's no telling for sure whether it's reflection or blackening

[fleet junco]

Purpled armor i think

[terse bronze]

it's not "avant" it's flemish

longer paunce of plate, fluting on the tassets for instance

typically not italian

[unkempt reef]

Keris variants

wavy dagger my beloved

[stuck sigil]

Miniflamberge

[terse bronze]

is this 1430-80 Western Europe ?

[unkempt reef]

no, Asia

precisely the Malay Archipelago, even more precisely western java + bali

[terse bronze]

Ok so doesn't belong there

Cool blade profile tho

[unkempt reef]

k

[terse bronze]

I think I prefer the straight ones rather than the wavy

[unkempt reef]

k

[terse bronze]

k

Unknown Artist, Study of Three Pairs of Combatants (detail), circa 1470s-1480s, ink and wash, Thun-Hohenstein Album, Prague, Uměleckoprůmyslové museum v Praze, GK 11.572-B, folio 11r

[unkempt reef]

sexy

[ancient shale]

Whoever that artist was, skilled for sure

[turbid shadow]

Altarpiece "Crucifixion in the Throng" from the workshop of Conrad Laib, ca. 1460, on display in the Gurk Treasury, Diocesan Museum of Carinthia.

[humble pagoda]

What type of sallet visor is that?

[stuck sigil]

Looks like standard German slit visor. Maybe slightly more protruding lip for tournament ?

[turbid shadow]

https://youtu.be/-DbRsLor8SE?si=99Y9cHyohKvoIMtW a short film that I thought it would be neat sharing

The armor does look weird though

[stuck sigil]

Could be similar to this visor on this example but I'm not sure

[stuck sigil]

It's decent enough. Not properly fitted by the looks of it and the polish is too uniform making it lose that rustic hand finished look maybe

The slow halfswordin bit makes me feel like I just rewatched my willie do the thingy cause I moved the mouse crooked

[turbid shadow]

https://youtu.be/tcjSZ3EmjBE?si=I_oabjGBnsadpurX

[stuck sigil]

Put the screaming audio over this when he falls down from the disarm and destroy the video quality, it would make a good HS meme

[turbid shadow]

https://youtu.be/S4pAD6Gu77A?si=-rVhfcZzTDBWDxMW https://youtu.be/xiE54JrF10w?si=G4ccsCFiLsz_MkJK

[stuck sigil]

First time I heard armour noises that sounds like running your hand against the pots and pans storage

I also love how this is so similar to what I would see in halfsword(obviously less janky). Just proves how realistic it actually is

[tired pasture]

combat wise half-sword is as realistic as how realistic the player makes it

gilded forehead

[stuck sigil]

It is what the devs are going for, yeah. Wouldn't be surprised if the physics got revamped a bit to match how it looks in the fencing videos. They are already showing redone punching mechanics.

[tired pasture]

not what i mean but whatever

[stuck sigil]

Looks like a yellow pope hat

[golden ingot]

Just wish the physics based combat worked better with guards, or if the willies knew how to use them

[stuck sigil]

Not yet, the aesthetics part of the game seem to be on back burner because the devs are still developing the core mechanics but I do hope this one gets added eventually

[toxic breach]

How high are braies worn? Do they obscure the belly button? Or do they sit at the natural waist?

[terse bronze]

Sallet, period

It has a short tail tho

[toxic breach]

Hard

How accurate is this for hose pants? Should the braies/underwear be that puffy?

[tired pasture]

with voiders like these that go over the rerebrace, would you wear another maille sleeve underneath to keep the back of the elbow covered?

[terse bronze]

you can totally have maille voided sewn in the elbow pit

and have the flancards on top

[tired pasture]

okay, thanks

[terse bronze]

maille is VERY modular

have it in patches, semi-shirts like flancards, hell you can even just have the sleeve themselves and tie them to the points

[terse bronze]

that's correct for 13-14thc

by the late 14 into the 15thc hoses go further up and nearly completely cover the braies

[toxic breach]

Okay. But I reckon split hosen existed in the 15th century, right?

[humble pagoda]

What is that little part for?

[ripe flare]

It’s a lance rest. You just lay the lance on top if it during a charge. It increases the power of a blow from the lance (although I don’t really understand how)

[terse bronze]

it stops the lance from sliding backward on impact hence transferring all the horse+rider system forces into the target

[terse bronze]

https://x.com/Eol4242/status/1658881553131241488?s=19

Eol (Comms Closed) (@Eol4242) on X

Time to segue back to the armour.

🔖THE ARREST
This strange feature is a fundamental technical development for lance-wielding cavalry in EUR.
It consists of two elements: a hook that plugs on the cuirass, and a small disc (often leather) or a swell behind the lance's handle.
10

Twitter · May 17, 2023, 5:05 PM

[ripe flare]

Ah that’s what the little rings on the lance are for

[tired pasture]

richard neville at barnet

[terse bronze]

goes hard

[tight sand]

the harness is amazing

[humble pagoda]

Does anyone know where I can buy historically accurate helmets?

I found a website but they ship from italy I think 😔

[terse bronze]

and you are in ..?

US i presume ?

thing is most online shop are gonna be hella larp and the few shops that I am aware off that does good stuff are smith's websites and all of them are in Europe

not to say that there isn't good smith in the US, there is some formidable guys there but i'm just not familiar with em

[humble pagoda]

Yeah

[clever bramble]

Browse this mega list of armorers. There are quite a few US based smiths, however most of them primarily sell swords.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SWORDS/comments/x53eih/hey_guys_im_compiling_list_of_reputable_smiths/

[humble pagoda]

I looked at the websites, I can't seem to find a way to buy anything

Is there a special process to get a reproduction?

Nevermind, turns out things are brutally expensive 😭

[azure galleon]

https://www.kultofathena.com

would buy stuff of there

but shipping alone to my country is like 300 dollars

but they are pretty well known and well liked

[terse bronze]

I would advise against that

[terse bronze]

refer to the first part of my message here

KoA can (it's a reseller) be decent for weapons but for armor pieces you can forget about it

[tired pasture]

can you send some of the things you’re looking at?

[hallow fiber]

The price of good replicas is almost as high as the price of an original.

[turbid shadow]

This is pure larp and will never be in the game

[toxic breach]

Looks very realistic pls include this in halfsword

[hallow fiber]

I hope this is a bad joke

[toxic breach]

Why would I joke about such a thing?

[turbid shadow]

All’Antica arm harness

Cool armet with a nice crest

[hallow fiber]

Because it doesn’t make any sense the armor completely ahistorical, it is a composite mismatch of bad replicas of pieces who aren’t even contemporary to one another.

[hallow fiber]

And overall it is ugly,

[toxic breach]

False

Clearly you lack even elementary knowledge of arms and armor

[hallow fiber]

Feel free to be delusional

[toxic breach]

Poorest trolling attempt I've seen from someone who clearly doesn't know historical arms and armor .... But go off

[hallow fiber]

Funny a troll accusing others of being trolls.. I guess that’s consistent.

[sullen charm]

I think we need add Crusader armor

[hallow fiber]

This isn’t crusader armor. This is fiction.

[sullen charm]

Hater

😞

[hallow fiber]

Sorry 😬

[hallow fiber]

The one on the right is certainly more historical than the one on the left, either way the game is set in the mid to late 15th century, so those armors shouldn’t be included.

[candid dawn]

The crusaders where long gone by the late 15th century🫣

[tepid edge]

@sullen charm respond faster

RESPOND FASTER

[tepid edge]

@turbid shadow

[hallow fiber]

?

[tepid edge]

Someone is supposed to win an argument.

It's so fucking unsatisfying when it just stops abruptly

[toxic breach]

???

[hallow fiber]

There wasn’t any argument.

[tepid edge]

Start one 🌚

||But not with me||

[turbid shadow]

He’s obviously fucking around lol

[blazing nymph]

https://youtu.be/lh5aqlUUXug?list=TLPQMDYwNzIwMjT14gwVkgOXhA

[robust tendon]

visored barbute

[tired pasture]

yikes

[wraith dew]

Moving my most Recent - ( + Future ones ) COA's ~ { Coats. Of. Arms. } over here from #art-🎨 , as I just feel that they're more fitting in here ❤️ . : 𝓗𝓸𝓾𝓼𝓮 𝓛𝓮𝓿𝓲𝓪𝓽𝓱𝓪𝓷

𝓓𝓸𝓶𝓾𝓼 𝓓𝓮 𝓐𝓷𝓰𝓮𝓵𝓲

𝓓𝓸𝓶𝓾𝓼 𝓓𝓮 𝓢𝓲𝓵𝓲𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓼 𝓓𝓪𝓶𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓸𝓻𝓾𝓶

𝓗𝓸𝓾𝓼𝓮 𝓟𝓸𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓲𝓼

𝓗𝓸𝓾𝓼𝓮 𝓒𝓸𝓻𝓿𝓾𝓼

[tired pasture]

cheap weapons

should keep to guns

[blazing nymph]

RIGHT?

but the images are good refences for hits

that wobble

[tired pasture]

not exactly

[white fulcrum]

I really think following the rules of tincture would help you out greatly with some of these

I mean I’m a bit hypocritical saying that considering my own coat of arms that I’ve made

but none of the colours look good imo so following those rules would be a good start

[vagrant charm]

Some coa I’ve made

[white fulcrum]

we love coherent colours

(and devices)

[ancient shale]

I like the coa with the boar head that’s a nice one

[ancient shale]

The one with the half red/white and hand reminds me of a certain polish coa, can’t remember the name though

[humble pagoda]

Could someone inform me on how a Coa is developed?

Any specific way to design one

[wraith dew]

100% Agree with that statement on the second one.

[wraith dew]

3rd one too a lil bit.

[wraith dew]

Owie 🤣

I chose the colors I did mainly because I felt that they made them pop a bit more. Also I feel like the standard rules are too constricting on creativity and shackle anything my imagination tends to brew.

[wraith dew]

Besides these look amazing for what they are anyways! ♥️

[wraith dew]

There are several videos on yt that show you the history of COA’s + how to read them, as well as the basics of the guidelines.

@white fulcrum

[terse bronze]

In general starting by reading the rules of tincture helps, and so does looking at medieval armorials (manuscripts compiling coats of arms)

[fleet junco]

Add this in

[gentle hill]

Who is this beautiful man

[wraith dew]

Newest addition to my collection of COA's/Houses, : 𝕳𝖔𝖚𝖘𝖊 𝕻𝖗𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖆𝖒𝖚𝖘 ~ { The stuff coming out of the Phoenix's beak/mouth is Pure Promethium! 🔥 }

[terse bronze]

that's an eyesore

[wraith dew]

Boi

Ight let's see your's

better not be bland

@terse bronze

[terse bronze]

I think i posted some already wait

[wraith dew]

💀

[terse bronze]

rather be simple than fuckign oversaturated ngl

[wraith dew]

Fr tho I think it's just the Mantle

[terse bronze]

Uhh can't find the message

[wraith dew]

BAHAHAHAH

[terse bronze]

What's so funny?

[wraith dew]

There we go

took ya a minute.

Anyways

[terse bronze]

Was looking for the ones I posted a while ago to not spam again but eh, whatever

That's all the ones I have saved

[wraith dew]

They're aight, 6.5/10

[terse bronze]

Must admit that website is kinda limited, Armoria is way better

[wraith dew]

Might get premium

[terse bronze]

you cannot be talking

[terse bronze]

If anything those and the ones and the ones under are top notch

That's why Armoria is better, give off a cleaner look

[wraith dew]

I just started making COA's lol

[terse bronze]

But there's also a key detail that camacurt has is a real understanding of how medieval coat of arms should look and how colors/devices work together, or not

[wraith dew]

Besides, most of it is just colorization and spacing.

[wraith dew]

Also I was literally just about to say that.

[wraith dew]

Remade 𝕳𝖔𝖚𝖘𝖊 𝕻𝖗𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖆𝖒𝖚𝖘, now slightly less scuffed lol

@terse bronze

[terse bronze]

still think it's way too much and the colors don't reall work well together

[wraith dew]

To be fair art is completely subjective in terms of opinions, everything is art if you think about it xD

Besides, nothing's perfect,

[terse bronze]

well ig but heraldry does have some set of rules

but you do you ig

armour of Gianfrancesco Gonzaga I., count of Rodigo and Sabbioneta, or Rodolfo Gonzaga, marquis of Castiglione delle Stiviere

[robust tendon]

henry VIII build

[wraith dew]

🤣

[wraith dew]

Yeah but the rules make everything come super boring.....

\ ( - _ - ) /

I feel as though my designs would work far better if they were more spaced out

[wraith dew]

𝕳𝖔𝖚𝖘𝖊 𝕴𝖓𝖉𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖙𝖚𝖘

[humble pagoda]

Do Coa go on a shield?

[wraith dew]

Yeah.

Kinda the point lol.

[wraith dew]

Here's a link to a quick vid on them : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPlXSEqSYl8

@humble pagoda

[humble pagoda]

Thx

[white fulcrum]

to be honest, i think that's just an issue with one's creativity

[white fulcrum]

????????

[wraith dew]

Thx red!

[wraith dew]

Just an opinion, as is his.

Also I didn't say his were outright bad.

[tired pasture]

coats of arms are often displayed on a shield but can be done in different forms

banners, ailettes, maybe even paint or covers on armor

[humble pagoda]

What is an Ailette?

[fleet junco]

13th century plates u put on ur shpulder

It had heraldry on it

[fleet junco]

Red99 has some in his pfp

[tired pasture]

it’s debated if they has a protective use or were just for looks

[robust tendon]

not really painted

painting is common for helmets in the 13th century but not really past that, tho there are some examples out there iirc

and when they were painted in the 13th century, it wasn't heraldic

[fleet junco]

I this this was already posted

[turbid shadow]

Many times yes

[ripe flare]

Painting is common in the 13th c? I’ve really only seen examples of painted sallets from the 15th c

[ripe flare]

Do ya got any examples of 13th c helmets?

Ig in the majowski Bible and the codex manesse there are some painted helmets

[robust tendon]

yeah there are quite a few

almost all of the “knight” figures are wearing painted greathelms in the maciejowski bible

you also see this in earlier periods, it more or less falls out of fashion past the early-mid(?) 14th century

I’ve seen modern reproductions of painted sallets but like zero in period art

most of the later painted armor i have heard of is either not medieval or the paint was added at a later date and not in period

[ripe flare]

Yeah I heard 15-16th c sallets are mostly painted after they’ve been acquired

http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2700

[ripe flare]

Supposedly this sallet has its original paint but I am suspicious

Hmmm this is a interesting subject though I’ll try to find something to read up on it

[obsidian sun]

how common were scale/plate sabatons, Im aware that its 40-50 years out of the period, but this is the only server I can consult

[tired pasture]

the black sallets were originally covered, and newer made ones were painted

[humble pagoda]

were Hose pants itchy?

Hosen*

[tired pasture]

if you were allergic to wool sure

but no hosen arent itchy

[hallow fiber]

All’antica/heroic royal gilded armor :

From a mid 15th century tapestry

[wraith dew]

Just one last note; these are also are opinions coming from me. Someone who doesn’t always follow the standard rules for making COA’s ~ { I’m still learning about what does & doesn’t work well ok. 💀 } I’m also someone who occasionally decides “Fuck-it, no law or order.” And lets the A.D.H.D. Take over the design process, which can result in success, or alternatively; as @terse bronze said, “an eyesore”.

Again, all art is subjective to opinion.

And to be fair I have had some pretty awful designs that I’ve outright scrapped 🤣

[wraith dew]

Lastly, I think that I'll probably come to favor the more simple/minimalist designs like the ones that Kevlar keeps talking about, as I play the game more and more. ~ { 180 hours and still grinding! }.

[humble pagoda]

I found the visor!

[wraith dew]

Sick!

[fleet junco]

The italy

[smoky topaz]

needs a polish

[humble pagoda]

what is the seperate eyeslits called?

[terse bronze]

https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O92981/sallet-unknown/ the museum page btw

[tired pasture]

occulars

[wraith dew]

New house that I've just put together : 𝕳𝖔𝖚𝖘𝖊 𝕺𝖇𝖑𝖎𝖛𝖎𝖔𝖓𝖎𝖘 tried to go for a simpler style this time. Mainly something like a Dark-Forest, or an Army of The Wastes type of aesthetic.

[torpid urchin]

https://tenor.com/view/spelling-mistake-minor-spelling-mistake-meme-gif-23650588

[wraith dew]

lol

[terse bronze]

bangers

after bangers

after bangers!

[turbid shadow]

true

give em the true combo

[prisma raven]

hehe thanks

[wraith dew]

Bottom right is 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

So is top left!!!!

[prisma raven]

13th century Aragonese coat of arms

More Aragonese coat of arms plus two Catalan coat of arms

[terse bronze]

me af

[tired pasture]

5 small crows

[wraith dew]

Extremely simple yet very elegant.

[terse bronze]

It's also due to a sort of private joke with him and I on the fact that i really REALLY like sun symbols throughout history lol
for instance here's the coat of arms i made for my Manor Lords run

[wraith dew]

Huh, coolio

[terse bronze]

Suns also present on these 2 commissions I ordered from him lol

first is a southern french knight and a catalan footman early 14thc, and the second is a kievan rus druzhina from the 14thc aswell

[humble pagoda]

"Italian Visored Bascinet"

[obsidian sun]

kinda goofy but goes hard

[vocal vale]

more commonly (?) called a venetian grand bascinet

i hear the hinged cheek plate might have been partially employed to allow archers to aim better

[lost zealot]

so is the time period accurate to the game ?

[vocal vale]

yes !

[lost zealot]

Yey !

[vocal vale]

it strikes a resemblance to some earlier visored greathelms which i find very interesting

[lost zealot]

which one ?

[vocal vale]

the venetian grand bascinets i showed look similar to like early 1300s greathelms

[lost zealot]

ooh i see

[obsidian sun]

Maile & plate sabatons?

[robust tendon]

looks like it

i’ve seen it before

not super weird to see

[prisma raven]

Venetian Half Sabatons (1490s)

[humble pagoda]

what would one look like without the plackart. Just a breastplate?

[turbid shadow]

yes

[white fulcrum]

i bet you wear these every day

[torpid urchin]

https://tenor.com/view/chicken-drip-shoes-gif-1257214092116796433

[lost zealot]

yo, im trying to recreate a gothic armor for my art stuff, is it good enough ?

not done yet though

[robust tendon]

looks good to me

[humble pagoda]

How is the shoulder armor attached to his arms? Are they tied

(I wanna know for blacksmithing purposes)

[robust tendon]

But look at sigismund’s harness to get a better reference for the shaping

pretty sure they’re tied

[humble pagoda]

how can I find images of the inside?

[robust tendon]

i wouldn’t know

[fleet junco]

More fluting

[fleet junco]

Spaulders are tied to the arm

I forgot about pauldrons

[robust tendon]

i think it’s the same

laced to the arm harness

[stuck pelican]

Holly crap.. You’re having a cook out and you didn’t invite me?

[humble pagoda]

I only wish I knew what it looks like from inside the spaulders. It would be so fun to craft some!

[lost zealot]

😢 yeah

sowwy

[lost zealot]

where ? in the breastplate ? vambrace ?

[fleet junco]

Arm harness

[lost zealot]

so, the vambrace

[fleet junco]

No everything on the arm, not just the vambrace

[lost zealot]

any photos you could give me ?

as a reference

[humble pagoda]

thanks dude!

[lost zealot]

ok thx man !

[humble pagoda]

What type of metal is used the most for reproduction armor?

[lost zealot]

some use titanium, other use steel

it depends on what the person wants to use

[humble pagoda]

Ahh ok

What would be preferable for light combat?

[lost zealot]

for sports ?

or smth ?

[stuck pelican]

Titanium probably, pretty sure it’s lighter unless I’m wrong

[humble pagoda]

Like for practice weapons

[stuck pelican]

Not sure how it holds up though

[stuck pelican]

Wood or steel

[humble pagoda]

Wood

[stuck pelican]

For practice yeah

Looking on who

Some don’t buy those fancy training swords

[lost zealot]

do you want to buy armor ?

[humble pagoda]

I want to make it

[lost zealot]

its expensive af

and you need to have the necessary material to do so

like the tools and furnace, maybe the furnace is easy to make but the rest ? idk man

[humble pagoda]

I'll buy a furnace online

[lost zealot]

the furnace i found on the internet was kinda small dude

[humble pagoda]

Yeah, I'll just start from there to learn the basics :\

[stuck pelican]

#general-catfish-🐱🐟

[lost zealot]

alr, i hope your attempt successful

[stuck pelican]

Take classes if you want to work with metal, trust me

[humble pagoda]

Will do. If I go without knowing anything I'll get nowhere.

[lost zealot]

also learn from the masters, probably there were many of them in europe

i mean like, experience how the masters out there deal with metal to make a beautifull set of armor

[wraith dew]

Yo

Look what I ~ { And somebody else who probably already has, } found! : https://m.youtube.com/@chrisgilman4336

Dude does/is doing tests with a 1~1 replication of the Greenwich Armor Set!!!!!

Fuckin’ sick!

~ { Yeah, I know. It’s slightly past the set time period of the game. However; it’s still really kickarse, & helpful for studying articulation(s) within sets of armor! }

[terse bronze]

Oh yeah that guy

forgot he had a youtube channel lol thanks for sending it

[turbid shadow]

classic scheke

[bright ferry]

Kurfürstlich Sächsische Kriegsknechte 1475 is great

[wraith dew]

Np!

[wraith dew]

What type of unit is he supposed to be reinacting?...

[bright token]

From the same group shared by gabe

[wraith dew]

Looks like a Footman/Man at arms to me.

*Light Man at Arms

[bright token]

The original post says he’s a rottmeister

A captain i think

Idk German lol

[wraith dew]

Ohhh

yeah Medieval ranks can be confusing sometimes...

[bright token]

With shield that big i guess he doesnt need leg armour lol

[wraith dew]

💀

With High/Later-Medieval-Period nights you often don't see shields as much. This is because with such a large quantity of 'Plate-Mail' ;

You become the shield.

[bright token]

Yepp

[turbid shadow]

1475-1500 France, BNF NAF 4811

[bright token]

If I recall it right shields were still mostly carried by footmen because not all of them have complete armour 😄

[wraith dew]

Why he kinda look like Lord Farquad tho 💀

[wraith dew]

True

especially if you have to pay to get &/or maintain your equipment like in most Feudal Armies.

[terse bronze]

btw plate-mail is a d&d term

[wraith dew]

It's still valid tho right?

[terse bronze]

(when referring to complete armors/harnesses)

[wraith dew]

ye

[terse bronze]

not really

[wraith dew]

???

[bright token]

The term kinda fell out of use in historical armour community i think

[wraith dew]

I'm not saying that all Knights wear 'Plate-Mail' tho

I'd assume so.

[terse bronze]

Just say harness or full armor please

it's more correct, shorter, and less larpy

[wraith dew]

Fair but aren't there li-

I don't larp lol

[terse bronze]

plate-mail does sound larp doe

[wraith dew]

2.5" Thick Steel Armor with Chainmail & Leather Guards.

That better?

[terse bronze]

2.5" ?

[wraith dew]

" = Inches.

[terse bronze]

isn't that a lot

[wraith dew]

What's the regular width?

[terse bronze]

plates are rarely more than a couple mm thick

[wraith dew]

OHHHH

Pure of heart, dumb of ass.

[terse bronze]

also chainmail is a modern term, maille is attested

what are leather guards in your mind?

[wraith dew]

Leather or wool/cloth padding

[terse bronze]

I've never seen "leather" padding

[wraith dew]

?

I might be thinking of a coif that'd be worn under a maille hood

[terse bronze]

and padding pretty much disappeared from arming garments within the 15thc (so when plate armor became widespread)

[wraith dew]

Why?

[terse bronze]

Useless

[terse bronze]

No maille hoods in the 15thc

[wraith dew]

Damn boi that armor gotta be thiccc af 😂

[terse bronze]

a few mm of tempered rounded plate is enough

[wraith dew]

Also fell out of favor?

[terse bronze]

Well there were never "hoods" but coifs, and yeah like a century or so prior

basically within the 14thc when they didn't really need a coif anymore since they had an aventail attached to the bascinet

[wraith dew]

"aventail"?

[terse bronze]

the maille part

[wraith dew]

Oh

so literally like a maille curtain that falls down to your collars

[terse bronze]

I guess you could say that

[wraith dew]

Were they effective?

[terse bronze]

lego set

[terse bronze]

well if they used it yeah it was

they started adding plates to it by the end of the century until completely replacing the maille with plate on greatbascinets of the 15thc ect

[wraith dew]

Would Maille stop a Flanged mace hit?

[wraith dew]

Damn

[terse bronze]

it would stop it yes

probably won't be pleasant if you're wearing only maille without plates tho but

yeah

like on the body i mean

[wraith dew]

God imagine a fuckin' lance blow straight to the face

CRASH

[terse bronze]

Maces really fell out of favor for the use on foot as plate harnesses developped

[terse bronze]

ouchie

[wraith dew]

Even like, Grandmauls and Grandmaces with Flanges?

[turbid shadow]

hmmm

[terse bronze]

what in the hell are grandmauls and grandmaces

[turbid shadow]

Not sure if this blade fits the time period for HS

[wraith dew]

Big fuckoff mace.

You can find them ingame

[terse bronze]

so like a polearm ?

[wraith dew]

Ish...

[turbid shadow]

Except they aren’t really called that

[wraith dew]

There are Historical examples

[turbid shadow]

Just mace

[wraith dew]

Potato~Potato

lol

[terse bronze]

a mace on a long stick ?

[wraith dew]

Yeah but the heads bigger and nastier looking

[terse bronze]

long stick = polearm = more leverage to grapple and deliver more powerful blows = still used

What i said is for one handed maces on foot

[wraith dew]

A Grandmaul is basically a weaponized sledgehammer

terrifying I know

[terse bronze]

plommée?

[wraith dew]

gimme a sec I'll find some pics of them

[wraith dew]

Nah

[wraith dew]

that's more like a polearm than a regular sledgehammer

Think this but longer and the Head's bigger :

[terse bronze]

my beloved

[wraith dew]

Close

[terse bronze]

ok wait

[turbid shadow]

That manuscript is full with sooo many rich things

[terse bronze]

I know a manuscript

[turbid shadow]

I must post it on its full later lol

[terse bronze]

tada

[wraith dew]

Yeah

Obv. there's some more horrifying examples of Two Handed Morningstars

[terse bronze]

i know a 16thc surviving example that is like around 170cm ish

[turbid shadow]

choose your coat of arns

arms

[wraith dew]

Bottom under the blu

[terse bronze]

174cm actually

[terse bronze]

Scutum my beloved!!!

i'll have the st michael one

[wraith dew]

Found an example

Far right

[terse bronze]

that's fantasy

[wraith dew]

Not entirely

[terse bronze]

entirely

[wraith dew]

there are some examples

Like yes I know THIS Example is

[terse bronze]

Closest you'll get historically is something like that, which is a "plommée" like before but simpler in design

[wraith dew]

Yeah but the Head of the hammer is usually a little bit bigger

[terse bronze]

no

[wraith dew]

Ok is this fantasy

Top right

[terse bronze]

That is not an historical source