references♥_1450-1470

[hybrid heath]

I love this guy

[vocal vale]

workshop of emperor maximilian

[white fulcrum]

eol’s art is amazing

[terse bronze]

Nop

[hybrid heath]

Dose épée just refer to a sword in general? I thought it was a specific sword called épée

[sullen charm]

épée does just means sword

it's just that in modern fencing épée refers to a specific one, but that's just in modern fencing

in general, and historically, sword = épée

[hybrid heath]

Thank you that cleared it up for me

[robust tendon]

some so called burgundian kettle helms

repro made after the effigy of Lord Robert Hungerford (d. 1459)

raised visor

really nice gothic harness

[ancient pivot]

ay I have one of those

[turbid shadow]

Damn looked at your portfolio and art station, your stuff is fantastic

[ancient pivot]

thank you

[vocal vale]

i love brigandine spaulders (or pauldrons, i like to call them spaulders since they dont cover the armpit)

[vocal vale]

[tight sand]

is that u. If u need a mod i can give u a link

[robust tendon]

yeah it is me

funny that you found that

[tight sand]

its a mod that was made by rus devs

and there are lot of med 2 mods

and they are great asf

[robust tendon]

does it have an english version?

or is it only in rus

[sullen charm]

mod 4 WHAT!!

[tight sand]

i think its only in rus

[tight sand]

https://disk.yandex.ru/d/6f83z8PAKf9XGg

[tight sand]

med 2

[robust tendon]

thats a shame, i don't know russian, though maybe there is another mod in the same period

[tight sand]

nah its a unique stuff. There is another italian wars mod but its really outdated. Tsadrom also use some of his models

[robust tendon]

dang

[tight sand]

he also makes mod about burgundian wars

[robust tendon]

those are some really high quality models, damn

[tight sand]

tbh i prefer this over Attila mk 1212

[robust tendon]

eh i like that mod, has a very wide range of periods

[sullen charm]

there was also machiavelli mod but iicr it never released but it looked pretty awesome

[tight sand]

where can i find info about it ?

there are also several mods in WIP that are placed in 16th century

[sullen charm]

https://sketchfab.com/mylae/collections

machiavello actually

no

yes

your mom!!!!!

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/508035570451349507/1108014300276215859/gooba_reaction_gif.gif

iitrerly me

[stuck pelican]

Where is that goober from

[sullen charm]

the guy drawing the goobers

[white fulcrum]

gooba….

[sullen charm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j5JfagtT3c&list=PLBYMu9DIR7DA7BrQryJFFtuHwvXcXsmmz&index=5

[tight sand]

thx

[robust tendon]

such a nice bascinet ❤️

[vocal vale]

for $140 it can be yours my friend

[obsidian sun]

[sullen charm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhEBZfXh3Aw

https://youtu.be/lQsaMHDjVAA?si=gVZgSxKyL_fe3RoF

[severe mauve]

yo wait can you link it to me, ive been wanting a bascinet like that so badly

[sullen charm]

apparently he got it for 90 bucks on etsy

[robust tendon]

etsy? Odd choice for armor buying

if i got harness i would just have it custom made

also pretty cheap for what looks like good quality kit

A guy in another server im in got his bascinet for like 200 bucks

[sullen charm]

he didn't buy it to wear it

[robust tendon]

i see

[robust tendon]

ca. 1475~ i believe

1460 iirc

Also looking for info on the armor in this piece. It says 1502, the source, but the armor doesn’t look too 16th century to me

[prisma raven]

These armors definitely look from the beginning of the 16th century.

a little fantasy here and there but yes

[robust tendon]

yeah in hindsight the armet does look like a later variation

but it almost seems like an in between of the 15th ct italian armet and a later “close helm”

[vocal vale]

i realized it was back ordered a couple hours after that

[sullen charm]

,

[vocal vale]

there’s one vendor that sells one called museumreplicas but it’s a bit thin and too rounded for my liking

[vocal vale]

legit every vendor that has that kind of helmet, it’s been out of stock for years

makes me angry

guess i gotta commission one

[severe mauve]

That’s so unfortunate 😭😭😭

[severe mauve]

I bought mine on Etsy for 400 and I’m a little sad cuz it isn’t that great

The maille aventail was made weird so I had to cut a piece of it off for it to fit my head, I had custom head proportions listed too :(

[bright token]

Beautiful swords

Hope it fit the time frame of the game lol

[robust tendon]

just get an armorer to do it tbh

[spice obsidian]

• "club penguin is kill"
• "No."

[stuck pelican]

why dos she look like a man

[clever bramble]

I think thats why they are being beheaded.

[clever bramble]

What is the source? I haven't that style of head wrapping outside of eastern cultures.

[white fulcrum]

just looks like a turban tbh

[prisma raven]

https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.152804.html

[clever bramble]

Correct turban is an umbrella term. Not commonly seen in Europe an medieval artwork.

[severe mauve]

I ain’t got a clue in the world how to do that

Still pretty new to this kinda stuff

[stuck pelican]

Who can figure out year of this armor

[sullen charm]

pretty wide but i'd say 1470-1490

Maybe more 80-90s actually

also wouldn't be surprised if a couple of items in it are composite

[sullen charm]

There's plentyyyyy of "turban" looking headdresses in European art

Early 15thc

ca. 1474-1479 - 'Beheading of St. John the Baptist, St. John Altarpiece' (Hans Memling) (tho it might be an anachronism)

[turbid shadow]

Yep

Would love to see them

[robust tendon]

chaperones

are similar

though i think those are 14th, not 15th

Well maybe early 15th for a time, idk i’m speculating

[robust tendon]

Looks to me like 1450-1480 ish

[robust tendon]

yea

the cuirass looks a bit odd compared to the rest of the harness

looks later

Than the others which look like 1450-60 or so

[sullen charm]

the cuirass/placard and pauldrons remind me of late italian harnesses hence why I said 80-90

this is 1499-1505

[sullen charm]

If I'm correct they were called "chaperons", right?

"yes"

[robust tendon]

I thought they fell out of fashion in the later 15th period

[sullen charm]

chaperon often was used as a blanket term for a headdress

[robust tendon]

Though i may be mistaken

[sullen charm]

"Yes" as in it depended on location?

Yes as in chaperon was used as a blanket term sometimes

so yes it's a chaperon

Ah, got it

[robust tendon]

Yeah its those for me as well, the rest doesn’t look that late

[sullen charm]

All chaperons

[clever bramble]

Aside from the one you admit may have been an anachronism, none of the chaperons examples look like one I questioned. It is consistent with the turbans used in Sikhism.

[white fulcrum]

I think this one is pretty close tbf

[clever bramble]

Look at it more closely and compare it to the forward facing image of your example. #references♥_1450-1470 message

[edgy narwhal]

It is too late of the scope anyways, you see these headdresses from 1490s to 99s . And for most of these depictions the context is mostly biblical anyways

But just because it looks like a turban does not mean it is one

[vocal vale]

kettle helm over bicoque on the right there?

[sullen charm]

him? looks more like a scarf or a bevor to me

[fleet junco]

probably just a coif

[vocal vale]

this feller too

since they’re all wearing the same helmet and then there are two odd men out i figured they might be wearing the same helmet without a visor but with a kettle atop it

[vocal vale]

since they’re all wearing the same helmet and then there are two odd men out i figured they might be wearing the same helmet without a visor but with a kettle atop it

[clever bramble]

Just found this HEMA wiki lots of great refernce to comb throughhttps://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Main_Page

[echo zenith]

together until death

[limber thicket]

:gayge:

[robust tendon]

cool black harness

funky sallet

great basc

a strange armet/great basc? looking blued piece, couldn't find much info on it.

[lyric light]

what do you mean /

its just an early armet

[robust tendon]

just looked very different to most of the pieces i've seen is all

never seen early armet with this type of visor

[turbid shadow]

there's a bunch

[vocal vale]

i think that's churburg 18 style

no visor

colville wears it in A Knight's Tale

[vocal vale]

or at least it has a very similar visor

i dont think it's got the same teeth

[fleet junco]

they turned a armet into a sallet

[sullen charm]

Reminder that visors don't matter when naming a helmet

a sallet with a "hounskull" visor isn't a "weird mix between a bascinet and a sallet", it's literally just a sallet

[fleet junco]

https://tenor.com/view/mr-fresh-mr-fresh-cat-cat-eating-cat-sleep-mr-fresh-eat-gif-15377773890486741194

[turbid shadow]

I would like to see that combination in action lol

[vocal vale]

not "in action" but in depiction

[sullen charm]

best i can give you is

[turbid shadow]

Looks oddly charming

[lyric light]

@turbid shadow https://twitter.com/Mud_and_Blood/status/1634846944765034496

𝖒𝖚𝖑𝖑 (@Mud_and_Blood) on X

Sallets

Twitter · Mar 12, 2023, 9:21 AM

[turbid shadow]

Very good

[robust tendon]

Venetian pollax, circa 1475.

[robust tendon]

Fancy man-at-arms wearing armor in the english style

[turbid shadow]

Men at arms

[robust tendon]

Very interesting engraving

[robust tendon]

kinda crusty image unfortunately but a nice harness

if anyone has some more info on the style of this harness it would be appreciated

[robust tendon]

Some more photos of this kit

really nice harness

[prisma raven]

https://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0009/bsb00092991/images/index.html?seite=40

[robust tendon]

interesting tonlet

[prisma raven]

St. Florian, Michael Pacher, Museo Civico, St. Bozen (1475-80)

https://initiale.irht.cnrs.fr/codex/10527

[robust tendon]

in a lot of st florian depictions in this period you see him with those sort of flowery besagews, i wonder if there is a specific reason for that

[prisma raven]

That depends, I suppose, on the origin of the painting or sculpture of Saint Florian. For example, this one does not have besagews.

[robust tendon]

sounds about right, they designed the armor in the sculptures etc probably off of what was in fashion at the time and location

[terse bronze]

Iicr, at least his cuirass is partially "fantasy"

Inspired by a bunch of sources but not one directly or specifically

Custom made type beat

[robust tendon]

I see, it does look a bit fantastical

everything else looks pretty good history wise though

Weird lookin sallet and bevor but the articulated shoulder here is very interesting

Weird looking harness in general, kinda looks poorly put together

Might just be how it is stood up though idk

[tight sand]

gooooooooooooooood daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaMN

[sullen charm]

It's often the unfortunate case with museum pieces, armors are made to be worn by a body and when you put in on a stand it will inevitably look strange :/ Also doesn't help that a lot of them have mismatched and composite stuff at times

[robust tendon]

indeed

[robust tendon]

Idk why they couldn’t just have used a mannequin

[sullen charm]

honestly idk, probably cost? and ease to display

it's easier to hang a cuirass to a hook rather that strap it correctly to a mannequin and then move it around ect ?

Honestly no idea

The Stibbert museums got some mannequins tho

[robust tendon]

I suppose so but surely not that hard to warrant just not using one

Especially when hanging it like that makes it look off

[main hull]

Blud be lookin like this

[robust tendon]

hahaha

yep

[bright token]

Shield reference

[worthy gulch]

Broken buckler?

[sullen charm]

boss* 🤓

[worthy gulch]

broken bossk 💔

[fleet junco]

this prob some italo-flemish

[clever bramble]

dudes in a bad way

[robust tendon]

are there any good reproductions of the kit in the second to last pics? the helms and the garment or covering the guy with the falchion is wearing look really interesting

[fleet junco]

we need some armor

give us some germany

armor

[sullen charm]

Isnt like all the armor we have from germany

not really

[edgy narwhal]

no

[robust tendon]

nah

it looks like italian stuff to me

[robust tendon]

Except for some of the sallets

[noble wagon]

where'd you find these? would love to look at some more of this type of stuff

[bright token]

I saved them from pinterest 😊

They’re usually saved from other websites too

[left dew]

The Hrm Empire

[sullen charm]

https://manuscriptminiatures.com a lot are from here

well, the first one actually

the others are from french manuscripts from the 15thc

Chroniques de Jehan Froissart

[noble wagon]

🤝🤝🤝

[robust tendon]

1435-40 ish

very nice surcoat

[robust tendon]

cavalry armor of Ferdinand V of Aragon and Sicily. Apparently dated 1490-1500. Leaning more towards 1490s though, the style is very much existant earlier than this

very good harness regardless

another pic of it

[hoary bloom]

Had fun making this, was gonna add 'Leo Rugiet' (The Lion's Roar in latin) as text in the little banner thingy at the bottom, but text is a pro feature.

[vocal vale]

like all the armor except for the helmets are italian pretty much

open face sallets could be italian too

[torpid urchin]

silly ahh

[civic glade]

Honorless knave vexillologists will say “its too complicated bc a 4 year old cant draw it”

I say its badass and lordly

[torpid urchin]

schlog

[robust tendon]

the bretagne heraldic symbol

good ol hermine

[sullen charm]

wtf

[fleet junco]

add this in game

[sullen charm]

put this in the game rn

[serene scaffold]

umh is that a penis?

pls add this into game it would be so cool

and a katana pls

[terse bronze]

@serene scaffold

[smoky topaz]

He jokes

Jests

[sullen charm]

Impossible to know for sure given the creatures that roam here

[edgy narwhal]

the internet has made me forget how social cues work lmao

[lyric light]

"creatures" LMAO

[elder narwhal]

That's a dick...

[robust tendon]

indeed

😔

[severe mauve]

yo does anyone here know any good armor smiths that ship to (or operate) in the us?

ive been trying to look for good reliable custom armor smiths to fit my body type and i like,,,cant find any

[severe mauve]

oh to have some beautiful armor and Jupon like this 🙏

or some shit like this

[robust tendon]

Personally i would get maximillian

or mayhaps a set in the transitional style, meaning 1380s-90s roughly

maybe somethin like this actually

[severe mauve]

That shits fire

Full plate cost too much for me sadly

[obsidian sun]

A beautiful kit

[obsidian sun]

Nonsense! One can always find more work for such hobbies!

[civic glade]

A suit of armor costs as much as like a new car

Its so whack

[severe mauve]

fr bruh 😭

[severe mauve]

not where i live nor in my situation unfortunately

[civic glade]

Albion Swords - Wisconsin
Arms and Armor - Minnesota
Castille Armory - Oregon
Darkwood Armory - Mississippi
Iron Beetle Armory - Michigan

These are the american producers ive come across

[severe mauve]

oh hell yeah thank you

i really appreciate this

[civic glade]

But be aware that MIA armor specifically is very rare because globalization

Its like impossible to compete economically with eastern european smiths

Feders and swords are low enough labor cost that it can work out but armor is very involved

Anyway, i admire your drive to buy american

[severe mauve]

i mean honestly im fine with buying european stuff (my bascinet is from india 💀) but i try and stick with american cuz A: currency, and B: wait times

i mean either or is gonna take a long ass time but still

[civic glade]

V. V

[obsidian sun]

I mean you need to get the armor made to your measurements so the additional time isn't that bad, but I can see being worried about shupping

[robust tendon]

It’s worth.

If you cannot afford such things you are a peon and a harness would be WASTED on you

but yeah it is pretty expensive

Though it depends on what you get

If its decorated or not, fluting, bluing, etc.

[torpid urchin]

Best armorers are Indian larp sweatshops

[vocal vale]

https://www.reddit.com/r/SWORDS/comments/x53eih/hey_guys_im_compiling_list_of_reputable_smiths/

[vocal vale]

love this fella's art

[white fulcrum]

mullRAAAAAAAAHH

[white fulcrum]

lmao never

[golden ingot]

Yea, they’re really active in the Blight discord last time I checked

[severe mauve]

Mull is so fucking goated

[severe mauve]

Same :3

[severe mauve]

Also thank you 🙏

[bright token]

beautiful longsword forged by Maciej Kopciuch

[robust tendon]

very nice indeed

[turbid shadow]

Shiny

[sullen charm]

wo

[vocal vale]

virgin vs chad

[sullen charm]

well fitted vs ill fitted

[robust tendon]

Is that covered plate barding? Very nice

[sullen charm]

It's leather

Hardened

[robust tendon]

i see

interesting, is it just an alternative since plate barding is ofc expensive i bet or was it actually used irl

[sullen charm]

It was used IRL but rare because a pain to transport and expensive

Usually even men at arms would just have a shaffron

[robust tendon]

for sure, i imagine just wealthier nobles mostly if that

good to have though i suppose, although the horse probably wasn’t the main target in combat and instead the rider

[stuck pelican]

Why does that horse look like it’s struggling

[clever bolt]

how about some gladiator and temple knight armor?

[turbid shadow]

all of the things here are out of the period for what half sword is trying to be

please try to post stuff that's within the 1430-1480 period

[clever bolt]

oki

[clever bolt]

like that? 1450

i read that half swords were used til the 16th century. why no armor til that?

[turbid shadow]

something like this, It would be better if you post Manuscripts, as this is modern art which can be Inaccurate sometimes, Or people recreating said armor from said period

[turbid shadow]

It wouldn't make sense To see a Knight wearing Milanese Armor Against a Knight wearing Greenwich armor [or something in that sorts]

And also its hard for the developers [Especially independent] to fit every arms and armor from wide periods, Imagine adding every arms and armor from the 14th century to the 16th century, it'd be time consuming and would cost a bunch of money

[civic glade]

Why not? Do we imagine people threw out all their/their fathers/their grandfathers old armor after it went out of fashion in a few decades?

That premise never set right with me, that only armor from the prior 20-40 years from a certain date would be seen

[terse bronze]

No matter how right it set with you, the sources shows otherwise

You would not see 1460 armor in 1560, period

older armour pieces ect could be repurposed from time to time, some exemples shows sallets "converted" into burgonets with an added brim, of bascinets "converted" into sallets by cutting their bases and overall reshaping them, or even some old ass kettles that were converted into cooking pots

You gonna stop with the "Oh but it's his great grandpa armor !!!!"

It doesn't make sense

[clever bolt]

agreed. i think the point is just that it would give the game a bit more diversity

[terse bronze]

1430-1480 has way enough diversity in term of style and armor pieces not to go pick up other items from other time periods

[white fulcrum]

god I hate that whole thing

one of the worst takes

[sullen charm]

Actually

[civic glade]

Can you 1. Cut it with the attitude. We can disagree respectfully like adults. 2. Dig into the exact nature of these sources? Are there textual sources saying ‘nobody uses armor more than 50 years old’, constructed panoplies, archaeological site assemblages, or what?

[sullen charm]

What attitude lol

[civic glade]

This attitude

[sullen charm]

That's not "an attitude" that's just a sentence

[civic glade]

Youre mocking me

[sullen charm]

Based on my experiences with ppl online that think it makes sense just to make up stuff to please their viewpoint

[civic glade]

Wherever it stems from, i think if i deal straightly with you, you ought to deal straightly with me. Can we agree on mutual respect?

[sullen charm]

They'll always find a way to bend reality and keep saying "but it would make sense for a 15th century soldier to use a greathelm because his ancestor scavanged it" blahbalhblah

[sullen charm]

Idk where I didn't respect you lol

anyway check this guy out

[civic glade]

I asked two direct questions and you evaded both

[sullen charm]

There's enough art, textual sources and surviving examples dated from certain period to know that they, in fact, avoided using 200 years old gear

And we know by the surviving orders texts that a cuirass and helmet were pretty affordable for your average soldier. Armies wouldn't ask their soldiers to be equipped as such if it wasn't

So no need to just scavenge some old ass pieces of armor to suit you, just buy one

• taking care of the pieces of armor you hypothetically kept from 100+ would be crazy expensive and frankly useless

Again, just buy a new one

[sullen charm]

Also this

I can note Ireland tho, which were pretty backward in term of armor and were still use on bascinets and haubergeons even in the 1560s

But that's something unique that can't be applied to the entierety of Europe where plate armor were the shit

I just don't understand why so many people insist on this weird notion that one would keep his great great grandpa helmet and waste money and ressources on taking care of it instead of just buying say a new sallet, more fitting for his role, size and preferences (and also being more fashionable) for not that exepensive

[white fulcrum]

this guy is awesome bossk

[sullen charm]

We know the prices of cuirasses and helmets for infantrymen at it's really not that huge

[white fulcrum]

I think this is a misinterpretation issue on your part

[sullen charm]

(I'm taking the example of infantry because if you were nobility it's even more absurd not to have contemporary armor)

[white fulcrum]

no one mocked anyone, literally everything bossk said and is saying is just explaining his point

[white fulcrum]

not to mention it would’ve been requirements in some armies to have equipment that isn’t outdated

[sullen charm]

||chronically online people who doesn't know what being really mocked and disrespected is||

[white fulcrum]

or at least penalised for having stuff that isn’t to a standard

[sullen charm]

I wanted to say this because I distinctly remember seeing a text about this issue but I would be incapable of finding it back

[robust tendon]

nothing fills me with more contempt than hearing the sentence "pls add templar armor"

it's like the real order has lost all meaning man

[white fulcrum]

there’s this one ordinance you sent me check our dms

jean something something

[sullen charm]

In the montres (muster rolls in france and burgundy) you sometimes see like

"Jean, 5 sol [pay] armed with a vouge and a sallet, asked to have a cuirass for the next montre" and stuff like that

[white fulcrum]

mfw people refer to anything 13th century as Templar or crusader armour

[sullen charm]

dios mio

[robust tendon]

pretty much

[sullen charm]

arguably a more iconic helmet for templars would be a classic nasal conical helm

[robust tendon]

those are real nice helms

i do enjoy early period styles

[sullen charm]

Since it's what they wore during like 90% of the order's life

Anyway...

[sullen charm]

Jean II ?

[white fulcrum]

yeah fairly sure 👍

[sullen charm]

the 1351 ordonnance ?

[white fulcrum]

yeah that one!

had a little thing at the end

describing what I said

but regardless

ordinances did serve partly to tell the person what to bring

[white fulcrum]

yeah

[sullen charm]

Banneret casually being payed double what a knight is paid ...

[white fulcrum]

so if some dude had a greathelm or some shit that was all old and was made of some really old metal then yeah

would probably count as a defect

and why bother spending money to repair it when you could buy a helmet that is specified in your ordinance??

[sullen charm]

By 1351 greathelms were still vastly in use so i'd expect squires, banneret and knights to have one

[white fulcrum]

i mean like, the older kind of greathelm but yeah

or a nasal helm

or anything outdated really

[sullen charm]

yeah

[white fulcrum]

lunch break over I’m out halfsword references chat bye!

[sullen charm]

Why would the ppl that actively use the greathelm (meaning is somehwta wealthy or noble, have enough to have a war horse ect) just keep some old ass bucket instead of getting a new one..

[robust tendon]

this is what i don't get either

[sullen charm]

Imagine how absurd it already is even when just talking about the same kind of helmet

[robust tendon]

all this armor didn't just disappear when it got too old but it sure wasn't used in battle

[sullen charm]

Now apply this to what we discussed earlier with the whole 1450-1550 thing

[robust tendon]

they'd just get newer stuff, and those would be of new designs

[sullen charm]

makes absolutely 0 sense

I'm gonna fight that black knight

damn that black knight got hands

[robust tendon]

what manuscript/whatever is this from?

[sullen charm]

Cod. 2597 ( Livre du Cuer d'Amours Espris )

[robust tendon]

first one is interesting, i looked into the manuscript a bit and found a different version. though it is from wikipedia.

not all that different, just the clothes the other fellow is wearing and the surcoat

i assume the one that you posted is maybe a restoration?

[golden ingot]

When do 100% real 15th century Amazon harnesses make it in the game?

[sullen charm]

Yeah it happens a lot that one artist copy another artist's art, and sometimes you can even find errors

[reef thicket]

Hella arms

[sullen charm]

Like in that one of Minerva Distributing arms, look at the guy with the haubergeon on the bottom right

And now the copy

(Haubergeon over plate, that's the copy error)

[clever bolt]

naw man u should check out his hips first

[reef thicket]

Why would i look at their hips?

[clever bolt]

the reason why its hard to find reference. also cuz google only shows me like 30 stock pics and nothing else lol

[clever bolt]

theres none. thats the joke

[reef thicket]

Weirdo why would i look at their hips?

[clever bolt]

why would u look at 3m arms lol

[reef thicket]

I dont look at an exposed armor's hips, his arms are more aparent and very acceptable to look at

[vocal vale]

if real you mean made for a disproportionate gibbon

right now there’s full milanese armor and gothic helmets

[robust tendon]

The finest indian arms and armor

[clever bolt]

u got my attention the moment u said gothic

[vocal vale]

your attention can be gott’n when you get to the higher armor tiers of the game my friend

sallets galore

[sullen charm]

These are both from the 14th century tho, just one is a copy of the other

might even be early 15thc actually

[vocal vale]

is the frogmouth with the two separate oculars an artistic choice or a real

[sullen charm]

id say prolly real

[robust tendon]

Pinterest can be good. Also check out manuscript miniatures

pinterest sometimes shows me crap though

google isn't a good place imo

often you either get shitty larp repros or stock crap

yeah case in point lmao

[sullen charm]

bowomp

[vocal vale]

100% look at manuscript miniatures, SOMETIMES pinterest, and if you have any questions about any of them the historians of the #references♥_1450-1470 channel will be more than likely to give their two cents

i can link you to a few arms and armor discord servers if you’d like, too? @clever bolt

[clever bolt]

aw yea

[clever bolt]

sure

[fleet junco]

armor historians

[terse bronze]

I'm not an historian at all btw, just a Guy...

[robust tendon]

would any of you know the purpose of these bits of maille below the poleyns? You see it a bit in 15th century armor, but it don't know what the purpose is beyond like decoration or something

maybe to prevent a sword or dagger from going under the plate but that seems silly imo

[fleet junco]

for decoration crecy

them damn italians

oh wiat thats gothic

[robust tendon]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm italians did like their maille.

[fleet junco]

i think its for that if an arrow hits that part it has a btter chance of deviation

[robust tendon]

nothing is better at deflecting arrows than plate

so very much doubtful

[fleet junco]

so best guess is decoration then

[sullen charm]

Prolly to not have the knee too exposed when you bend it ? Honestly ikd but italians had it a lot

And there's 16th century german harness with maille engraved on a plate to mimic this

[sullen charm]

or italian export

( https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/22000 )

[robust tendon]

the armorers surname is Helmschmid, same as the fellow who made a lot of maximillian's pieces

i wonder if they are related, or it is just a common name

or it isn't a surname at all, not sure

[vocal vale]

the helmschmid are pretty much the most famous german armor smith family i can think of

[vocal vale]

i agree with this take

[sullen charm]

decapitateded the heazd !!!

[turbid shadow]

they taking good care of his head

[vocal vale]

i love this

[sullen charm]

honse

[robust tendon]

funky crown

[turbid shadow]

very colorful depictions

[turbid shadow]

The name of the MS Here Is " Pal. germ. 149 Historia septem sapientum; Chronicon pontificum et imperatorum"

"Bodley Auct. D. inf. 2. 11 Book of Hours, Use of Sarum" 1440-1450

[sullen charm]

Bascinets with bevors my beloved

[turbid shadow]

We are so fucking back

[sullen charm]

Might even look more like a armet tbh but whatever

[turbid shadow]

I love this depiction

[sullen charm]

its great

[robust tendon]

it got the iconic curve/slight point at the top

[turbid shadow]

"Bodley Laud Misc. 733 Chronicle of England to Henry V" 1440- 1450

[robust tendon]

bascinet in my book, perhaps an early form of the great bascinet?

frogmouths on foot

very interesting

also some nice bicoques

[sullen charm]

That's not how an armet/bascinet is defined tho

[turbid shadow]

"Amiens BM MS.483 Eracles" 1440-1445 Location In france

[sullen charm]

both armets and bascinet can be equally as pointy

[robust tendon]

it's also got a slight curve in the back too

yeah, i suppose

just looks a lot more like a bascinet to me

[sullen charm]

Could be both really, seeing the dating I lean more to the armet

[robust tendon]

1450 Lyon BM MS.439 Apocalypsis figurata

france

[sullen charm]

nice

[turbid shadow]

"GNM Hs998 History of the Trojan War" Date, 1441, Location Germany

[vocal vale]

i believe certain illustrators gave knights frogmouths to establish their status rather than to show their actual equipment

[robust tendon]

yeah, assumed so

[vocal vale]

i’ve seen a few where there are like 20+ dudes on horseback with frogmouths fighting each other, it is a pretty interesting little nugget to think of

[robust tendon]

frogmouths are indeed a very knightly/noble helmet

[vocal vale]

y’think this is a bicoque?

[vocal vale]

i wonder if they did that because a lot of commoners would connotate a frogmouth with a nobleman more than any other helmet

because of their appearance in events

[turbid shadow]

I just realized that everything I posted it is extremely fucking low res

[robust tendon]

Morgan M.421 Book of Hours, from Bruges. some funky ear plate and nice maille over arm harness

[turbid shadow]

allow me to fix that

[robust tendon]

obviously st george

so many depictions of st george out there

[robust tendon]

yeh i was thinking that

[vocal vale]

scroll bouche goes hard

got dang

[robust tendon]

it's exclusively a joust helm, and ofc common people would see nobles and such wearing that in joust

from the same manuscript, also forgor to write dating, which is 1450

[turbid shadow]

Higher res

[robust tendon]

hounskull visor bicoque

very nice

[vocal vale]

i love seeing bicoques in the wild

[robust tendon]

also just what looks like a hauberk instead of a harness

interesting

[vocal vale]

its like playing popeye with my dad in the car but without my dad and it’s a helmet instead of a headlight

[robust tendon]

Morgan M.385 Speculum humanae salvationis, also from Bruges and 1450

[turbid shadow]

HQ Resolution

[robust tendon]

pretty funky helm

[vocal vale]

manuscript is a whole bicoque-o-rama

@vagrant charm

[robust tendon]

same one

some funky tonlet/fauld thingy on this fellow, also some nice surcoats

[turbid shadow]

P3

[robust tendon]

crested bicoque ❤️

[vocal vale]

awoooga

[turbid shadow]

P4

[vocal vale]

can’t get over that one hounskull bicoque guy in the hauberk

[turbid shadow]

P5

[turbid shadow]

P6

[turbid shadow]

P7

[turbid shadow]

P8

[turbid shadow]

P9 [Final Page]

Very cool MS

[turbid shadow]

The source of the MS so it doesn't get confused with somethings is "GNM Hs998 History of the Trojan War" Date, 1441, Location Germany

[fleet junco]

in the 5th image is that a kasten brust with scale

[robust tendon]

looks like it

or just maille idk

[turbid shadow]

Yup, it could be Mail too

[robust tendon]

also an interesting tonlet, never seen them fluted

[fleet junco]

cupcake tonlets

cupcake

[robust tendon]

le Mans BM MS.223 Nantes Missal, 1450, France

[fleet junco]

the two guys on the floors have some interesting arm peices

[robust tendon]

looks like heroic armor

[turbid shadow]

"BAV Pal.lat. 413 Speculam humane salvacionis" Date, 1400-1450 Location: Austria

[robust tendon]

from the same one as the prior one i posted

[turbid shadow]

P2

[robust tendon]

nice gilded kastenbrust lookin thingy

[turbid shadow]

Yup, real nice

I hope we can see Heroic armor in some way or another

"Dierick von der Merwede's Effigy" Date 1452 Location: Meeuwen, North Brabant, Netherlands

"Jan van Hamme III's Monument" Date: 1445 Location: Steenockerzeel, Brabant, Belgium

[turbid shadow]

Monument: Arnould de Hamal Date: 1456 Location: Heeren Elderen, Limburg, Belgium

[fleet junco]

where his wife go

[turbid shadow]

Sleep

"Tours BM MS.218 Hours of Charles V" Date: 1450 Location: Bruges, Belgium

@sullen charm @robust tendon probably the Best examples Of All'Antica I've found

so fucking beautiful

[robust tendon]

yeah that is super nice

[turbid shadow]

https://flic.kr/s/aHsiSTUe5C

7 Pages long of very good references

filled with many stuff such as this

[terse bronze]

Yeah it's great, note the jewelry imbeded in his cuirass

You Can see a very similar thing on a caesar tapestry and on saint micheal painting by bermejo

[turbid shadow]

it's so beautiful

[stuck pelican]

Wow…!

[sullen charm]

your profile pic is clearly fake

vegeta doesn't know how to read

[turbid shadow]

P2

[vagrant charm]

https://tenor.com/view/lets-go-lets-goo-lest-gooooooooooooooooo-gif-19416648

[turbid shadow]

P2

[stuck pelican]

Read the sign above his head..

[turbid shadow]

P3 "ca. 1464-1466 - 'wings of the 'Lyversberg Passion'' (Meister der Lyversberg-Passion), Cologne, Kartäuserkirche, Cologne, Wallraf-Richartz-Museum, Cologne, Germany"

[sullen charm]

i cant is too smol

[turbid shadow]

ca. 1465 - 'biblia pauperum', Northern or Southern Netherlands, Museum Meermanno, Den Haag, province of Zuid-Holland, Netherlands

[turbid shadow]

I think it says silence

or something idk

[stuck pelican]

“Silence”

We will not question is vegeta is illiterate

[turbid shadow]

ca. 1466 - 'St. Hippolytus with Crucifixion, epitaph of Bernardus de Reyda (+1466)' (School of the Meister des Marienlebens), Köln, St. Ursula-Kirche, Köln, Staatsgalerie, Bamberg, Bayern, Germany

"ca. 1467-1470 - 'Kiss of Judas, antiphonary' (Master of Antiphonary Q in San Giorgio Maggiore), possibly Verona, Veneto, Italy, Dr. Jörn Günther Rare Books (Stalden (Sarnen) & Basel, Switzerland), TEFAF, Maastricht, Netherlands"

"ca. 1468-1475 - 'Resurrection, Landauer Altar' (Meister des Landauer Altars), Katharinenkirche, Nürnberg, Germanisches Nationalmuseum, Nürnberg, Bayern, Germany"

"ca. 1468-1475 - 'Landauer Altar' (Meister des Landauer Altars), Katharinenkirche, Nürnberg, Germanisches Nationalmuseum, Nürnberg, Bayern, Germany"

[robust tendon]

da boots over da leg harness

very nice

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1470 - 'Crucifixion' (Meister der Kemptener Kreuzigung), Germanisches Nationalmuseum, Nürnberg, Bayern, Germany"

"ca. 1470 - 'St. George Altarpiece' (Master of the St. George Altarpiece), Praha, Klášter sv. Anežky České, Praha, Czech Republic"

"ca. 1470 - 'The Glorification of the Virgin' (Meister der Verherrlichung Mariae), Cologne, former Kirche St. Brigiden, Cologne, Wallraf-Richartz-Museum, Cologne, Germany"

[turbid shadow]

yup

[stuck pelican]

Might make that a pfp, ngl

Goes insanely hard

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1470-1480 - 'Kadaň Altarpiece, Sv. Václav' (Master of the St. George Altarpiece), maybe Praha, Klášter sv. Anežky České, Praha, Czech Republic"

[sullen charm]

crayfish armor lesgooooo !!!!!!!

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1470-1480 - 'Froissart, Chroniques', Museum Plantin-Moretus, Antwerpen, province of Antwerp, Belgium"

[turbid shadow]

Go for it

[stuck pelican]

Imagine dying to a person with armor with the style name “crayfish”

[sullen charm]

It's baller tho

[stuck pelican]

Hopefully it fits

[sullen charm]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eStyKhLacLGfDX1WUkx5KCSHi8cEFJA0R9ovedBiV_s/edit

[stuck pelican]

Do you have a bigger image of it

[turbid shadow]

this shit has so many nice things

[sullen charm]

I found a repro online from that one book I have

[turbid shadow]

I'd kill to have this in HS

[stuck pelican]

allllllrighhhtt

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1470-1480 - 'Legend of St. George', probably Bruges, Groeningemuseum, Brugge, Belgium"

[stuck pelican]

Ok that looks way better than what was in the image

[sullen charm]

(the page in question)

[turbid shadow]

ooooooooooo

[robust tendon]

beautiful

[robust tendon]

did not expect to see this image here

[turbid shadow]

ca. 1470-1475 - 'Scenes from the Old and New Testaments', Bamberg, Staatsgalerie, Bamberg, Bayern, Germany

[sullen charm]

macking cheese got me dying

[robust tendon]

the michael wave

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1470-1480 - 'pavise, David and Goliath', Bohemia, Musée de Cluny, Paris, France"

[stuck pelican]

Bossk is adapting internet humor

[robust tendon]

painted pavise ❤️

really painted armor in general

[stuck pelican]

I want to see some painted armor in here badly

[robust tendon]

i've posted two images, but those were modern repros

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1470-1490 - 'St. George' (Master of the View of St. Gudule), Brussel, MOU - Museum Oudenaarde en de Vlaamse Ardennen, Oudenaarde, Belgium" 1490 but whatever I still like it

[stuck pelican]

I still enjoy seeing that

Hey fencer, do you think they’ll let us paint our own armor schemes ingame?

Or will it be presets for like bosses

[robust tendon]

hmmmmmmmm good idea

[stuck pelican]

I’ll make a suggestion about it 😁

[sullen charm]

i think i'd rather have a hoqueton / surcoat rather than pain the armor dirctly

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1473-1478 - 'epitaph of Jesse Sax aus Ebenfurth (+1473)', Wien, Wien Museum Karlsplatz, Wien, Austria"

[turbid shadow]

we could change the tint probably

[robust tendon]

now this is white armor

truly a white knight

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1475 - 'Martyrdom of Saint Sebastian' (Hans Memling), Koninklijke Musea voor Schone Kunsten, Brussel, Belgium"

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1474-1479 - 'Beheading of St. John the Baptist, St. John Altarpiece' (Hans Memling), Memlingmuseum, Sint-Janshospitaal, Brugge, province of West Flanders, Belgium"

[turbid shadow]

nicee kit

[robust tendon]

yes that one is very nice

[stuck pelican]

#1212282408271876167

[turbid shadow]

decent idea

[sullen charm]

PANZERHOSEN CUISSES !!!

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1476 - 'St. Michael liberating souls, lunette of the Ragnoli altarpiece from Faenza' (Biagio d'Antonio, Florentine School), Italian, Musée du Petit Palais, Avignon, France"

[stuck pelican]

You should add to it, im pretty stumped

[prisma raven]

¡¡¡Si señor!!!

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1475-1480 - 'Resurrection, Altarpiece of the Dominicans' (Martin Schongauer & workshop or circle), Église des Dominicains, Colmar, Musée Unterlinden, Colmar, dép. Haut-Rhin, France" Could it be the cray fish!

[turbid shadow]

I'm pinning the cray fish armor doc

too good to be left forgotten

"ca. 1475 or ca. 1480 - 'Cologne's patron saints with a view on the city' (Meister der Verherrlichung Mariae), Cologne, Wallraf-Richartz-Museum, Cologne, Germany"

[turbid shadow]

It's fine

customization is a thing that will come, just nott now

[robust tendon]

i really like this one

[stuck pelican]

[prisma raven]

This one is amazing

[turbid shadow]

Yep really nice looking in many ways

[robust tendon]

very nice looking surcoat and gilding

[turbid shadow]

So much details

[sullen charm]

The jewels oh mama

[stuck pelican]

Now I wonder, did they use gold leaf or did they just have actual golden armor

[robust tendon]

smithing process

[sullen charm]

Golden armor did exist

[stuck pelican]

As gold is heavy as fuckkkk

[robust tendon]

where amalgam bonds with steel

[fleet junco]

add skull cap

[robust tendon]

that is a super big oversimplification though

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1475-1485 - 'knight of the von Fleckenstein family' (workshop of Peter Hemmel von Andlau), Strasbourg, Église Saint-Georges, Haguenau, dép. Bas-Rhin, Musée de Cluny, Paris, France"

[stuck pelican]

So some type of alloy?

Or they somehow blend the steel with surface gold

[sullen charm]

Yeah, mercury-gold amalgam iicr, producing nasty fumes but bond the bold with the steel

[stuck pelican]

If that’s the case.. I’d love to have some parts of my armor with golden bands whenever customization is added

[sullen charm]

Plated gold pretty much

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1475-1485 - 'St. Sebastian (?) & St. Anthony the Great', cloisters, Kartäuserkloster, Cologne, Museum Schnütgen, Cologne, Germany" bro this looks so friggin good

[robust tendon]

i wonder if that's how they did the gold bits in armor, for example gold poleyns or couters

[sullen charm]

Yes

[stuck pelican]

Mercury so health 😋

[sullen charm]

me smelling boiling mercury fumes yummmyyyy

[robust tendon]

worth it for the fashion

[stuck pelican]

I wonder how realistic will half sword be in terms of combat

[stuck pelican]

Well, they’re not the ones making it sooo.. they’re fine 🤣

[turbid shadow]

its trying to be just as close to what hema is

[robust tendon]

hmmm i wonder if it would get to the point where how nicely made it was affects the protection of armor

[stuck pelican]

I really want maces to be toned down

Blunt force trauma in this game seems a little too much

[robust tendon]

yeah pretty unrealistic

esp. for armor

[stuck pelican]

I want concusions, not a axe going through my skull

[sullen charm]

https://youtu.be/COAIQPsgZWY?si=Dsy_g8S70gUDgvrh&t=3058 For anyone wanting to know more about the gold thing

[robust tendon]

since well, blunt while better than cutting a breastplate, isn't the armor destroyer like what is commonly thought

[turbid shadow]

"
ca. 1476-1477 - 'Victory of Charlemagne over the Avars near Regensburg, Emperor's Window' (workshop of Michael Wolgemut), Nürnberg, Lorenzkirche, Nürnberg, Bayern, Germany"

[turbid shadow]

tobias capwell, Very cool dude

[turbid shadow]

I think they will

[stuck pelican]

Should I make a suggestion for more realistic like combat

Actually, if anything fencer or bossk you should, I’m not too knowledgeable on how much damage these weapons would truely do

[sullen charm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j5JfagtT3c&t=325s&pp=ugMICgJmchABGAHKBRd0b2JpYXMgY2Fwd2VsbCBsZWN0dXJlcw%3D%3D please when you can, check this lecture it's marvelous

[robust tendon]

i think unarmored damage is mostly fine, i mean a mace to the skull would hurt a fuck ton at the very least and kill you at the worst

tho depends on the mace

[sullen charm]

mostly will absolutely kill you

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1476-1477 - 'Emperor's Window' (workshop of Michael Wolgemut), Nürnberg, Lorenzkirche, Nürnberg, Bayern, Germany"

[robust tendon]

yeah, the survival is if you are lucky

[robust tendon]

if you do survive you're probably severely brain damaged so...might as well be dead

[sullen charm]

yeah

Even if it's a few grams, a solid hunk of metal (brass, steel, iron or bronze) straight to the cranium aint no bueno

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1479-1481 - 'Sebald Rieter the Younger and Peter Rieter, Rieter Window', Regensburg, Lorenzkirche, Nürnberg, Bayern, Germany" oh my god the clothing here

holyyyy

it looks so fucking good

[robust tendon]

kind of hard to see, is that cloth over the plate?

[turbid shadow]

scheke but its puffier

[robust tendon]

i mean on the arms

[turbid shadow]

literally perfect

[robust tendon]

yeah i thought so, very nice

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1479-1481 - 'Moses and Joshua, Rieter Window', Regensburg, Lorenzkirche, Nürnberg, Bayern, Germany"

[sullen charm]

on the arms (if i can see well) are schecke sleeves but slashed so the arm harness shows

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1480 - 'The Siege of Jerusalem by Titus' (Vienna Master of Mary of Burgundy), Ghent, Sint-Baafskathedraal, Ghent, Museum voor Schone Kunsten, Ghent, province of East Flanders, Belgium"

[robust tendon]

some weird burgonet lookin things in there

probably sallets though

[stuck pelican]

Went crazy with another suggestion today

I’m on a roll!

[turbid shadow]

P2

[turbid shadow]

P3

[stuck pelican]

The king on the frontline???? Fake news

[robust tendon]

more common than you'd think

[stuck pelican]

Wow, is this the biggest way they’d die

[sullen charm]

no

[robust tendon]

i mean, John of Bohemia was blind at Crécy when he died

not even blindness stopped him from going into battle

had to be guided

[sullen charm]

That's the best way to signal your enemies you're there, ence insuring your life won't be ended and instead taken captor and randsomed if you even get captured

[robust tendon]

yup

nobles were more valuable alive than dead ofc

[sullen charm]

Yep

[stuck pelican]

Wow.

Would this be the same for personal bodyguards of the nobles or king

As I see they also have fancy fancy armor

[sullen charm]

Probably

Or squires even

[stuck pelican]

Why would they capture a squire, don’t they just read

[sullen charm]

Fancy armor were absolutely used in battle and they acted like a life insurance (99% of the time!)

[stuck pelican]

Oh right, reading wasn’t really… big

[robust tendon]

one of the reasons most knights at say, Agincourt, were captured rather than just dead

[sullen charm]

a squire is a noble, knight in training. Or straight up a "knight" that didn't want to pass knighthood

[robust tendon]

other than their armor making the arrows not as deadly

[sullen charm]

Azincourt !!!!

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1480 - 'Crucifixion', possibly Northern Low Countries, De Jonckheere (Genève), TEFAF, Maastricht, Netherlands"

[robust tendon]

is it spelled that way? idk

i've always seen it as Agincourt

[sullen charm]

Didn't stop the english from slaughtering prisoners anyway, oh well, can't expect much from these honorless bastards

[turbid shadow]

Azincourt

[sullen charm]

in english it's agincourt cuz they dumdum

[stuck pelican]

The hell, I thought they were just like people who pass on messages, or I’m just thinking of something else

[sullen charm]

but Agincourt is a real town in france that is nowhere near the battle

Azincourt is where the battle took place

[robust tendon]

i see

[sullen charm]

Postmen ? lol

[stuck pelican]

Couldn’t arrows still go through armor, even with those large war bows

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1480 - 'Crucifixion with knight Hans von Hattstatt', Kloster Unterlinden, Colmar, Musée Unterlinden, Colmar, dép. Haut-Rhin, France" little night

[robust tendon]

Maybe maille

[stuck pelican]

Damn… I swore they were called squires

[robust tendon]

but plate, as in what most, if not all knights would be wearing, no

[sullen charm]

No (except in very thin and fragile areas that weren't really vital anyway)

[robust tendon]

a good breastplate will stop a warbow's arrow

[stuck pelican]

What about crossbows?

[robust tendon]

Also probably not

[sullen charm]

Same thing

If not stop it, then deflect

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1480 - 'St. George' (Monogrammist AG), German, Koninklijke Bibliotheek van België, Brussel, Belgium"

I like this depiction

look at how creative the monsters look

[sullen charm]

Of course you'll always find account here and there of a lucky shot

[stuck pelican]

Internet is full of LIARS!

[robust tendon]

case in point, i think one of the princes of england had an arrow in the face

forget which one

[turbid shadow]

ca. 1480 - 'St. George on a Setztartsche ', Wien, Wien Museum Karlsplatz, Wien, Austria

[robust tendon]

they had a thingy invented to pull it out

iirc

[fleet junco]

did they just give up

[stuck pelican]

I was told.. arrows could go through armor on flat parts where it wasn’t deflected!!! GRAH!

[turbid shadow]

what?

[fleet junco]

why is it not finished

[stuck pelican]

It’s old and worn

[robust tendon]

probably damaged over time yeah

[stuck pelican]

Do you see the year it’s from

[turbid shadow]

its probably because of how old it is

[stuck pelican]

1480

[fleet junco]

the face

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1480 - 'Passion of Christ' (Heinrich Lutzelmann), Église Saint-Pierre-le-Vieux, Strasbourg, France"

[sullen charm]

Also ! By the 15th century armorers could pass their armor pieces to the "proofing" : Shooting it with different type of ranged things (from bows to guns and siege crossbows) and authorities would witness these testing and give theright to the armourer to pretty much apply a seal of quality on the items he makes that are proofed to resist bows, crossbows, guns and siege crossbows (goes from "simple steel", to "double steel" and "triple steel") just like how modern plates are rated!

[stuck pelican]

Siege crossbows?

[turbid shadow]

interesting insight

[robust tendon]

yeah, i've heard that later armorers just shot their pieces with like a pistol and that's why you sometimes see dents

[sullen charm]

I can send a video about it but it's in french and I can't guarantee the quality of automatic subtitles

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1480 - 'Christ before Pilate' (Meister LCz (Meister des Strache-Altars)), Gemäldegalerie, Berlin, Germany"

[sullen charm]

That's common in the 16th century, but even in the 15th they would do that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfiRbYg5w5w&pp=ygUJcHJvamV0IHh2

[stuck pelican]

Also… GUNS?

[sullen charm]

Guns in the 15th century, yes

[turbid shadow]

y eah?

[stuck pelican]

Wouldn’t it just go through on armor

[robust tendon]

handgonne

[robust tendon]

depends

probably not the best stuff

[stuck pelican]

or were they too primitive or lower loads or what

[robust tendon]

but like a munitions plate maybe

[stuck pelican]

They 100% would dent in

[stuck pelican]

Munitions referring to like..

[sullen charm]

Most, probably... But if proofed like i said "triple steel" thn it's guaranteed to stop a shot

[robust tendon]

most guns weren't as good as they got later when you see armor slowly being less and less useful

referring to lower grade steel used by common soldiers

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1480 - 'Crucifixion', Colmar, Musée Unterlinden, Colmar, dép. Haut-Rhin, France"

[sullen charm]

I really want yall to watch the video I hope the subtitles are good enough

[robust tendon]

stuff that would not be commissioned like suits would be

not all armor is made equal, quality varies

[stuck pelican]

What are the types of like… armor processes they did

[robust tendon]

i don't know much about the specifics of forging

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1480 - 'St. George and donor’ (Hans Memling), Flanders, Alte Pinakothek, München, Bayern, Germany"

[robust tendon]

but what nobles wore, as in the best full harnesses, they would be heat treated i believe

there was also a bluing/blackening process

though that was insanely expensive

and rare as a result

[sullen charm]

That's kinda rare in the 15th century

Mirror polish were prefered

(expenso)

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1480 - 'tournament, scene of 'l'histoire du Busant'', Upper Rhine, Strasbourg?, Musée de Cluny, Paris, France" froggor mouth

[robust tendon]

yeah, the shinier your armor usually the better it is

[sullen charm]

and gold plating for the most absurdly rich (very very expenso)

[turbid shadow]

Other forgor mouth

[robust tendon]

kings and dukes

prob

[sullen charm]

Remind me of an account of a sallet for charles the bold that costed like 4 complete "classic" harnesses

[stuck pelican]

What are like.. the leveling of people in the 15th century, the hierarchy?

[sullen charm]

Highly depends when and where tbh

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1480 - 'Massacre of the Innocents' (Meister der Augsburger Heimsuchung), Freising, Germanisches Nationalmuseum, Nürnberg, Bayern, Germany"

[robust tendon]

depends where and when but it wasn't like peasants then knights then nobles, there was ofc a middle class

[sullen charm]

Peasants, bourgeois/burghers/sergeants, bailiff, count ect

[robust tendon]

merchants, craftsmen, stuff like that

some non-nobility could be very rich

[sullen charm]

Sometimes it doesn't really mean much, a lower nobility can have more power than a higher nobility if his family is old/important enough

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1480 - 'detail of a Last Judgment', probably Seeschwaben, Germanisches Nationalmuseum, Nürnberg, Bayern, Germany" this one is cool as fuck

[robust tendon]

funky bevor

[stuck pelican]

Bourgeois is French middle class, right

[sullen charm]

yeah

[robust tendon]

like, i would imagine armor smiths esp. late period would be very wealthy

[sullen charm]

middle class middle-high class

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1480-1490 - 'St. George and the princess' (Antonio Cicognara?), North Italian, Pinacoteca Tosio Martinengo, Brescia, Italy"

[robust tendon]

plate harness ain't cheap

[sullen charm]

Merchants and such

[robust tendon]

sergeants are armed contingents of society right? i'm not super well read on them

not quite knights but expected to be able to fight should they be called upon

[sullen charm]

Another reason why the "conscription/levies" didn't levy poor ass peasants. They levied Bourgeois/Townsmen/Burghers. People who can fight and can afford required arms and armor

[turbid shadow]

P2

[robust tendon]

peasants still need to make food during war

[sullen charm]

Sergeant really just mean servant tbh (but not in a slave kind of way)

[robust tendon]

and ain't very useful on the field

[robust tendon]

i see, i believe i've read that they are just tenants that could fight

tenants as in they reside on a lord's land

[sullen charm]

That's one of the many things a sergeant could be

They take care of a lord's land for him, are handpicked ppl to lead subdivision of a lord's army ect

You get the jest

[robust tendon]

so upper middle class i'd think

[sullen charm]

Honestly could prolly be even a bit higher

[turbid shadow]

ca. 1480-1490 - 'Christ Carrying the Cross' (Juan Sánchez de Castro), Sevilla, Galería Bernat (Barcelona), BRAFA, Brussels, Belgium

[sullen charm]

Since it's more of a job/occupation? than a class really

[turbid shadow]

P2

"ca. 1481-1487 - 'St. George, Volckamer Window' (Peter Hemmel von Andlau and the Strassburger Werkstattgemeinschaft), Strasbourg, Lorenzkirche, Nürnberg, Bayern, Germany" @sullen charm its the sigismund man from aeternis

[robust tendon]

i've also read that in some periods they weren't quite conscripts anyways, some could just be paid mercernaries or asked to fight, or something like that

at least in england

[robust tendon]

tho my memory does not serve well

[sullen charm]

Yeah either way they would be paid of course. See them a bit like reservists today

Not full time professional soldiers but still able

[robust tendon]

part timers i think they were referred to as

[sullen charm]

Of course you'd still have professional armies in particular in the 15th century (ordonnances my beloved)

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1483 - 'epitaph of Apollonia Volckamer (+1483) with the Crucifixion', Bamberg, Staatsgalerie, Bamberg, Bayern, Germany" Awesome stuff here

"ca. 1483 - 'Betrayal of Christ, altarpiece of the Lamentation and Passion of Christ' (Master Arnt of Kalkar/Zwolle), Kalkar, Lower Rhine region, Kartuizerklooster Bethlehem, Roermond, Netherlands, Musée de Cluny, Paris, France"

"ca. 1484-1485 - 'Neuenahr Altarpiece' (Meister der Heiligen Sippe (der Jüngere)), former Kloster Mariengarten, Cologne, Wallraf-Richartz-Museum, Cologne, Germany" Late by 5 years sadly

[turbid shadow]

P2

I Have a bunch of other stuff but Sadly they are kinda too late for the game, so I'll save them for later

I'd kill for the game to make it so it takes place to 1490 instead of 1480

but maybe one day they'll make an expansion or something of that sort

[sullen charm]

in 10 years

[golden ingot]

Yea I’m very excited to see what kind of harnesses the devs add, I suggested a bit of randomness because harnesses are mostly unique from one another unless made as a mass production

But it’d be kinda redundant to add the same piece but in a slightly different shape or place

[halcyon badge]

I dont know if this is the place to post it, but this is am estoc i made based on the Wawel estoc, but with a different hilt design

[robust tendon]

Funky pommel

[halcyon badge]

Its meant to seat onto a lance rest

[robust tendon]

1430 germany iirc

[torpid urchin]

Trying to learn hatching

[robust tendon]

1430, hagenau germany

1430-40 france

1430-39 germany

1430s roughly, England

Bury St Edmunds, England, 1433-34

[robust tendon]

Black helmet and regular cuirass? Odd

unless it’s just the lighting

[vocal vale]

this one drawing radiates so much charm it’s insane

absolutely love it

[torpid urchin]

Thank you!!!!!11!1!1!!1111eleven11

[sullen charm]

Look like it has been painted with some kind of oils,which is attested to protect stuff from rust

French archer from around 1460, the helmet has linseed oil paint coating it, protecting it from the elements, rust ect

[sullen charm]

Btw this is from modern day france (Alsace or Lorraine) but back then it was in HRE

as you can see by this beautiful german ö

[robust tendon]

I see

I did notice while looking at the manuscript page that it was in the same city as a previous one with an identical artstyle, both in haguenau but one said Germany and the other said it was from France

that certainly explains it

[robust tendon]

1435-40, Lyons

Very interesting tonlet

[fleet junco]

Pauldton

[robust tendon]

Some more of the same manuscript

1435 Italy

Same year, but now out of Vienna. Morgan M.230, Biblia paperum

1436-43, Valencia, Spain.

1437, Vienna

1439-50 Paris

1450 France

1450, Cologne, Germany

1447-49, Haguenau France/Lorraine/HRE, KBR MS.14697 Tristan und Isolde

[fleet junco]

David vs goliath

[sullen charm]

do note— the spiked ball flail is likely a more fantastical bit included by the artist

[robust tendon]

Maybe, but i think it still could have been used, but not commonly ofc

At least in tournament for sport anyways

[sullen charm]

military flails likely only saw ceremonial usage (if any)

peasant flails are a whole nother beast though

[robust tendon]

the two handed club like one was used i think