halfsword-chat-⚔

[serene dawn]

literally fire at the pikes

[soft osprey]

No

[muted dew]

Like with your guns?

[serene dawn]

or maybe a grenade?

[waxen lance]

LOOK A ROMAN PIKE FORMATION

[soft osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/днестр-рыбалка-fishing-fishing-line-fishing-cast-gif-16161668

[muted dew]

Bruh remember we are talking 1600-1700 here

[soft osprey]

Look a man fishing

[waxen lance]

(prolly a better example)

[serene dawn]

BRO IF THEY HAD LITERAL GUNS, THROWING A GRENADE INTO A PIKE FORMATION WOULD CERTAINLY NOT END WELL

[feral lily]

ah yes, the holy hand grenade of antioch

its one of the relics brother maynard carryies

[muted dew]

You are aware pikes are about 5 meters long?

[serene dawn]

😭

BEFORE GUNPOWDER THEY HAD ARROWS

[waxen lance]

yeah I'm aware, first image isnt a very good one

[feral lily]

FIRST THOU SHALL REMOVE THE PIN

NO MORE

[serene dawn]

WHAT WERE THEY EVEN GONNA DO ABOUT THE ARROWS

[fast kindle]

Wrong they had grenades

[serene dawn]

what

[feral lily]

THEN THOU SHALL COUNT TO 3

[fast kindle]

You heard me

[feral lily]

NO MORE\

NO LESS

[serene dawn]

WHERE

WHEN

HOW

[feral lily]

3 IS THE NUMBER THOU SHALT COUNT

[fast kindle]

During the crusades

[soft osprey]

Hey they were using small hand thrown bombs like grenades since like the 8th century

[feral lily]

AND THE NUMBER OF THE COUNTING SHALL BE 3

[serene dawn]

GUNPOWDER IS THE WHOLE POINT OF GRENADES

[muted dew]

Grenades at the time weighted A LOT. And you have to get past both the arquebuses and pikes. And you can’t throw it after formation collide because friendly fire

[feral lily]

4 THOU SHALL NOT COUNT

NOR 2

[waxen lance]

Plate armor quite often deflected and made arrows not pen very well, there were literally guards to prevent the wooden spalding/shrapnet from entering the helmet on some examples of armor

[fast kindle]

? Wrong lol

[feral lily]

GIVEN THAT THOU THEN PROCEEDETH TO 3

[soft osprey]

SOME people need to learn where the caps lock key is

[feral lily]

THEN, LOBBEST THE HOLY HAND GRENADE AT THY FOE

[waxen lance]

theres a v shaped extrusion on this armor to stop both thrusts and arrow shrapnel

[serene dawn]

what the fuck is that thing

[fast kindle]

V

[serene dawn]

😭

[feral lily]

and give space for nose

[waxen lance]

ye

[fast kindle]

Nose? What kinda big ass nose would that guy have

[feral lily]

it'd help with glancing blows bro, not full on direct thrusts

[soft osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/phineas-phineas-and-ferb-shaking-hands-gif-21156785

[feral lily]

armour for minecraft villager

[serene dawn]

bro how would a pike formation have full sets of armour and chainmails and shield

that would be the most expensive pike formation ever

[waxen lance]

ARCHERS TAKE A LOT OF FUCKING TRAINING

[feral lily]

what is a puke formation

[waxen lance]

PIKES DO NOT

[muted dew]

Even the strongest of bows with bodkin arrows can barely dent a chestplate

[fast kindle]

No they don't lol just use guns

[waxen lance]

genuinely

[serene dawn]

AND THEY ARE WORTH IT

[muted dew]

This is exactly why bows and crossbows coexisted for so long

[fast kindle]

Test of time says otherwise

[waxen lance]

yeah

until firearms

[serene dawn]

didn't you guys just say that arrows and spears could easily penetrate armour

[waxen lance]

a skilled bowsman was fuckin hard to train

[fast kindle]

Wtf who would wanna set they arms on fire

[waxen lance]

Chainmail.

[fast kindle]

Masochists

[serene dawn]

BECAUSE OF GUN POWDER?

WDYM

[feral lily]

bodekin arrows could easily piece a chestplate wdym theyb were made for that

[muted dew]

No I never said anything close to that

[soft osprey]

Im going to sleep, y’all behave or im banning everyone in the morning

[waxen lance]

DEPENDS ON THE CHESTPLATE

[serene dawn]

we need bows and arrows in half sword so we can penetrate armour

[feral lily]

spears can, some arrows were designed to

[muted dew]

Tods workshop did an excellent video on this. Any properly made chestplate will not give a flying fuck about arrows

[waxen lance]

you should kill people

[feral lily]

bodekin arrowsn were DESIGNED to piece plate armour

[feral lily]

goodnight pookie

[waxen lance]

Ok yes, but that is not a very deep penetration

[serene dawn]

thicker armour

[feral lily]

at closer range they can be lethal

[muted dew]

Chainmail could be penetrated with a strong enough stab. But you ain’t doing shit to plate

[waxen lance]

they were MUCH better against plate though

chain*

[feral lily]

spears could 100% get through plate

[serene dawn]

ow I got warned for referencing north korea

[waxen lance]

the ones that went straight through were bodkins if i remember properly

[muted dew]

This kind of plate often had a thick gambeson under so you would be fine

[waxen lance]

ye

gambesons are like

leather right?

or like thick cloth?

[fast kindle]

What's gun powder

[muted dew]

No. Just no why tf do you think that

[fast kindle]

That sounds made up

[serene dawn]

4 inch thick armour with 20mm thick arrows

[feral lily]

cause some were designed for that purpose???? 😭

[muted dew]

A very thick padded jacket sometimes made with stab resistant fabric

[waxen lance]

also reminder when really good armor like this came around, firearms also came around

so

[fast kindle]

This is me

[waxen lance]

yeah arrows were really not used against plated knights

[muted dew]

Anti armor weapons where made to go through the plate. They either stabbed the gaps that had chainmail or made them fall over before stabbing said gaps. You will never go through the plate

[waxen lance]

also remember; Crusader armor helped stop arrows from longer ranges

[feral lily]

awl pike was designed to pierce plate armour

[serene dawn]

THEN AS I SAID PLATED KNIGHTS ARE BASICALLY INVINCIBLE

[feral lily]

blunt force

[serene dawn]

what, did they have 20mm armour piercing arrows?

[serene dawn]

shield

[feral lily]

they had armour piercing arrows

[waxen lance]

N o

[feral lily]

you can still get hit sheild cant block everything

[serene dawn]

anti armour piercing arrow armour

[muted dew]

Just like rondel daggers the awl pike is good for punching through chainmail. Still won’t do shit against plate

[feral lily]

its designed for plate

[muted dew]

Sadly the 20mm aphet arrows are a Hollywood creation

[fast kindle]

?

[serene dawn]

also why didn't they have tanks back then anyways

[waxen lance]

I mean

if we wanna be technical

[feral lily]

never would have thought of armour made of arrows

[muted dew]

It’s designed for armor. It meant to be effective against the chainmail protecting the gaps of the armor

[fast kindle]

How about 20 mm automatic cannons

[waxen lance]

we have 20mm armor piercing arrows IRL

[serene dawn]

4 inch thick armoured human tank

like the spartans

[muted dew]

Those where Called heavy cavalry

[waxen lance]

its just fucking 20mm APFSDS

[feral lily]

it can and was used to get through plate armour, but was also used to stab weakpoints

[serene dawn]

aren't those basically invincible too

swords can't get pass

arrows can't get pass

[feral lily]

horse dies, you cant get up

[serene dawn]

tf they gonna do?

[feral lily]

= you die

[serene dawn]

throw gasoline?

[muted dew]

Chief imma need a fucking source on the penetrating plate. Not even poleaxes who are considered THE anti armor melee weapon even try to stab the plate

[serene dawn]

wait

gasoline is actually a good idea

[feral lily]

cause pole axes weren't designed for that

[serene dawn]

then don't use horses

[muted dew]

They where designed to fight armor. Now gimme a fucking source

[feral lily]

what do you think cavalry is

[serene dawn]

use tanks

human tanks

like 40 guys holding 5 inch thick iron plates

then shooting out arrows

[fast kindle]

Heavy cavalry is the equivalent of today's air force actually

[serene dawn]

armor piercing arrows

[fast kindle]

Why not use real tanks we have those

[waxen lance]

ok buddy

and this is the AI overview

[fast kindle]

@waxen lance 💋💋

[waxen lance]

lemme ask chatgpt

[serene dawn]

how much even is a pound

[fast kindle]

0.4 kg

[feral lily]

many say "plate piercing spears", but dont mention them by nam,e

[muted dew]

Being designed to fight armor doesn’t mean it’s supposed to penetrate plate. It means it’s supposed to fight armored opponent. All armored fighting was about trying to stab the gaps in said armor not go through it

[muted dew]

That’s not a source

[serene dawn]

it's not that bad

[feral lily]

thats what I said

[waxen lance]

SO

WE'RE GONNA CARRY BUNKER WALLS THEN HUH

[feral lily]

exactly im looking for one that mentions by name

[fast kindle]

500 x 0.4

[muted dew]

So you agree that it can’t penetrate plate?

[waxen lance]

1.5 FUCKING TONS

[serene dawn]

OK 50 PEOPLE CARRYING THEM AND REOPEN IN TO FIRE OUT ARROWS

[waxen lance]

FOR A 5 FOOT BY 3 FOOT 5 INCH THICH STEEL SHIELD

[fast kindle]

@waxen lance why are you even bothering to talk about it this is clearly rage bait

[feral lily]

no. It could but was more difficult than finding weak points

[waxen lance]

cus its fun

to look for information

[fast kindle]

Fair 💋

[serene dawn]

honestly I have to study geography but who cares

[waxen lance]

why are you kissing

[fast kindle]

That's dumb just stay dim ...

[fast kindle]

Cuz I lov u

[waxen lance]

I aint interested

[fast kindle]

What are you studying

[fast kindle]

That's fucked

[modest whale]

just use oil

[fast kindle]

Curious

[serene dawn]

oil doesn't catch on fire

[modest whale]

its still hot

[wise canyon]

Maces is exist

[muted dew]

I am once again asking for a fucking source

[serene dawn]

we need fuel

[feral lily]

bruh cant find specific source but all the ai's say it could but was difficult

i asked multiple btw

[muted dew]

The point of blunt weapons was to make the opponent fall over so you could shank them

[feral lily]

to increase validity

[muted dew]

ITS FUCKING AI TRAINED ON HOLLYWOOD BULLSHIT

[fast kindle]

Nutritious

[modest whale]

bro forgot about oil lanterns

[waxen lance]

oof using AI as a source is a bad move there king

[fast kindle]

Y'all talking about different sorts of oil

[feral lily]

no. Its an ai trained on the information currently present on the internet, you are basically arguing with most of the internet

[fast kindle]

You did the same shit dumbahh

[wise canyon]

Not at all dude. You ever been hit in the head through a helmet with a mace? I have, a small mace, very lightly. If he used full strength, even if my helmet didn’t crack or bend into my skull, the concussive force is enough to kill

[muted dew]

Ai doesn’t give the correct answer just the one that is regurgitated online more

[waxen lance]

no i used ai for math that I was too lazy to calculate at the moment

[feral lily]

which, if asking somnething historical, would most likely be the most accurant answer

[waxen lance]

for HISTORICAL THINGS i do not trust ai

[fast kindle]

I'm much better for math than ai ask me what 4x6 is

[modest whale]

construction lumber

obviously

[muted dew]

Yeah Even padded longsword to a helmet can SUCK (ask me how I know lol). What I meant is that blunt force was not super effective besides the head

[modest whale]

😭

[feral lily]

Ai can be accurate, you just gotta ask multiple for validity

[waxen lance]

I've been hit with a metal bat through a stahlhelm

shit hurt

[modest whale]

enemy team

💀

[feral lily]

Also if you ask it to only use trustworthy sources it is even more accurate

[waxen lance]

my grandfather took it off a dude he killed in berlin

[feral lily]

Like tell it to only use information from reputable historical sites

[wise canyon]

It breaks bones. I've done re-enactment and buhurt. In buhurt which uses way thicker and stronger armour than back in the day, maces and polearm hammers are made hollow because they were designed to break what is beneath the armour

[muted dew]

Ai is not good at choosing good sources and just pick whatever thought has the most quantity

[feral lily]

Not if asked about a specific topic as to prevent misinformation

And even less so if you specify the types of sources you wat

[modest whale]

bro wore it and got hit with a metal bat

[muted dew]

Just do your own damm research then

[modest whale]

even though its worth money

[feral lily]

Then it basically just summarizes ideas from multiple historical websites

[modest whale]

crisp 50 dollar bill

[waxen lance]

I fuckin know its worth money

[modest whale]

on ebay

[feral lily]

How would that be different from what I did

Id use the same sites

[muted dew]

I concede that one. Armored fencing is all about stabbing gaps or bashing what is behind

[modest whale]

doesn't even care about money

and chooses to get hit with metal bats

just dodge it

[muted dew]

Great. Then tell what sites you used

[feral lily]

Id have used the same ones the ai used

[muted dew]

and those are? Stop avoiding the question

[feral lily]

The most reputable ones idk,

[waxen lance]

ok but thats actually dependent on what model you use, I am not one to fucking go "Ai is best thing for research hurr durr" but its better then saying bullshit without a source lmfao

[modest whale]

AI IS PERFECT AND NEVER WRONG

🗣️

[wise canyon]

Yeah definitely not getting through plate with a sword, but Dane axes were designed to go through helmets. Granted armour strength definitely improved a lot by the time of full plate armour so a poleaxe might struggle a bit to break the armour, but the concussive force is still there

[feral lily]

Whatever the premium one is

[cloud crag]

How’s everyone

[muted dew]

JUST GIVE ME THE DAMM SOURCES

[modest whale]

do you know shoe???

[gloomy bridge]

has anyone noticed how the game doesnt really feel skill based and its whoever swing better wins?

[cloud crag]

Yes and it’s not impressionable to the point a group of people can get it to only respond the n word to peoples inquires

[feral lily]

Ok, Weapon wiki, Wikipedia, Worcester.emuseum.com, met museum.con, academia.edu etc

[cloud crag]

Nah it’s bait and stab tbh

[crude flower]

AI is very wrong when it comes to things

[gloomy bridge]

yeah

[feral lily]

Hard to argue with 2 museums and an edu site

[cloud crag]

I mean it’s better up in the higher armored areas

But nah you have to have a disadvantage for it to be fair

And even then

[modest whale]

but they can't talk???

[cloud crag]

Like I’m in commoner area and drop my weapons on carnage and just kinda beat the shit out of em all

[wise canyon]

'whoever swings better wins' is pretty accurate. I mean, it takes skill to swing better

[waxen lance]

hey question

[feral lily]

Dave you happy with my sources?

[wise canyon]

ya?

[crude flower]

the summarizing part is what makes it bad

[muted dew]

I have been coached in poleaxe fencing for the last 6 months (Talhoffer 1467). Although I still lack the gear for sparring.
strikes are almost exclusively against the head or knees. And stabs are ofcourse mostly towards the eye, armpit and sometimes groin

[modest whale]

i feel like dave likes chocolate milk and chicken nuggets

🔥

[waxen lance]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1263255402729181184/1382350640163848292/88.mp4?ex=684b7e9b&is=684a2d1b&hm=6fac42fe2e9fcd920faf94784dde75e063eeaf9d66bbf54085473c20859529b3&

how realistic is this form of polearm combat in a buhurt and how would you feel if you saw it in person IRL(Video from m00)

[muted dew]

I would prefer specific articles instead of just the name of websites

[wise canyon]

Oh for sure. Even though you may break someones finger with it, why waste the energy when you can go for a more lethal strike? HEMA technique is not necessarily based on what is possible, but on what is most effective

[rich tulip]

i feel like this game hates its players, even tho it's a great game

[feral lily]

Bruh... Grasping at straws I see, I'm on a phone so I ain't typing out that much shi

[rich tulip]

trying the ultimate challenge and i die more to my own weapon or to me flying across the map than i die from getting killed by the enemy

[modest whale]

🌲

[gloomy bridge]

yeah but in hema thats not really the vision i think a parry system by pressing mouse four would enable a blocking stance

[feral lily]

Tree?

[gloomy bridge]

like kinstrife

[modest whale]

yeah that's you in real life

[muted dew]

Asking for the fucking name of the page with said info is too much lol?
Also Wikipedia says nothing about its effectiveness on plate

[feral lily]

Indeed

[modest whale]

everyone looks like their discord pfp btw

[feral lily]

Idk bro it used Wikipedia to get the base info on it, when it was used and shi

[wise canyon]

That's honestly pretty accurate to a buhurt poleaxe duel, not gonna lie haha.

Jokes aside there is a lot more technique involved in buhurt duels, but it's also a lot more 'just swing hard and fast' than an official polearm duels would be. But there was a thrusting or stabbing motion I saw in the video, all thrusts and stabs are banned moves in Buhurt because they were the only way to kill a bloke in full plate with piercing weapons, which poleaxes can be

[waxen lance]

I'm sorry the side switching is canonically accurate?

[muted dew]

And what article did you get said info from.
I’m you are not gonna give me an actual source I’m done with this discussion

[wise canyon]

I'm just speaking semantically

[gloomy bridge]

yeah i get what you were saying

[wise canyon]

You mean switching the dominate hand?

[waxen lance]

I think?

the thing were they switch up the arms as they swing to get more angles of attack

[feral lily]

I gave you a source lil bro look it up, the titles long as hell

[muted dew]

The hand are both protected by gauntlets and can easily be moved out of the way of a strike.

[feral lily]

Look up (website name) awl pike/spear

[wise canyon]

100% it's done in buhurt and was done back in the day. A quick hand switch can catch your opponent by surprise by swinging from a direction they didn't expect, if done well

[gloomy bridge]

uuuh guys my character won and died at the same time and now willies willie is out

[muted dew]

I did and I’m not finding shit about it piercing plate

[modest whale]

he doesn't have one though

its just a moose knuckle

[feral lily]

Maybe wrong website then idk or maybe didn't read whole thing

Maybe get chatgpt to summarize lol

[wise canyon]

We don't use finger gauntlets in buhurt because of how many broken fingers there were, so sure they can be moved out of the way, but by that logic just dodge every attack that comes at you

[muted dew]

Im not doing your research for you just because you don’t want to back up your own claim.
Until you give me article supporting you claim I’m done with this argument

[modest whale]

there should be a martial art where you shoot each other with muskets and wear modern body armor

[wise canyon]

What exactly is his claim?

[feral lily]

what evidence do you have that says awl spear cant?

[waxen lance]

ok but what about full armored spinkicks lmfao as a theoretical would a full spinkick in full armor disqualify you

[wise canyon]

Early 1900's Olympics had pistol dueling as a sport

[modest whale]

with blanks???

[wise canyon]

In buhurt?

[waxen lance]

yeah

[wise canyon]

Wax bullets

[modest whale]

💀

i feel like that would still kill you

[waxen lance]

yeah it def still could

prolly why its still not around today

[muted dew]

The knowledge that no other melee weapon (including ones made specifically for armor) and the strongest of arrows arrows can only dent a chestplate at most.
As for the arrows.
https://youtu.be/DBxdTkddHaE?si=mHLGMw7wmpYE3Rw9

[feral lily]

I gave bro evidence and he turned it down cause I didn't give him the specific title when a quick google would do 🥀 🥀 \

[muted dew]

That an awl pike can penetrate plate armor

[feral lily]

and meanwhile he has - actual sources at all

[feral lily]

so your source is... arrows vs armour plating?

[wise canyon]

I'll simplify it. The only rules in Buhurt are -

No stabbing/thrusting. No blows to the back of the knees, feet, groin, base of the skull/back of the neck. No arm bars/joint locks. No attacking someone who's on the ground (except in profights). Basically anything else goes. My old club president who founded the sport in Aus used to do a back kick that you'd never see coming and would send you on your arse

[muted dew]

Bruh your source was first ai and then entire wikis not articles

[tired prism]

@restive barn make a giant ass weapon for the 1.5x scaled characters since they have no trouble handling a golden halbred like its nothing

[feral lily]

was the awl pike actually tested in this?

[waxen lance]

lmfao that must be a spectacle to see a martial art knight

[feral lily]

my source was 2 museum articles about the weapon and an edu site

[tired prism]

just like this but triple the size lmao

[feral lily]

yours is a hunch and a youtube video

we are not the same

[muted dew]

Along with hands on experience with poleaxes and knowing people who do armored fencing

[feral lily]

are either of those awl pikes?

no.

[wise canyon]

It could penetrate maille, and could penetrate 15thc armour if there was a weakness from the forging process, but energy wouldn't be wasted on a stabbing strike at the plate itself. It would be used for weakpoints so you're essentially correct

[wise canyon]

I can link you some videos if you want

[modest whale]

does a lance penetrate armor???

[muted dew]

https://tenor.com/view/michael-scott-the-office-steve-carell-thanks-annoying-gif-8726320

[waxen lance]

send that shit to my dms dawg

[tired prism]

goofiest large weapon i could find

[tired prism]

we want it too bro

[modest whale]

if a lance can't reliably penetrate armor then how can an awl pike

[feral lily]

it COULD pierce plate armour, but required a lot of effort to do so, so it was mostly used to stab weaker points. that is my claim

[waxen lance]

@wise canyon acc send it here lmfao

[wise canyon]

It's why they were made so long. If it was designed to penetrate armour it would be shorter and less able to bend

[muted dew]

Look up dequitem on YouTube

[waxen lance]

yeah I watch his shit

[wise canyon]

Sure, if the armour was made badly or if the guy thrusting it had the strength of 2-3 strongman winners

[feral lily]

no not nessicerily, but required a lot of force and the effort was better used targeting weak points

[restive barn]

ok

[feral lily]

like you were better off targeting weak points

buyt it was possible and did happen

that is my argument

[feral lily]

also + wear on the armour from deflected blows would weaken it meaning it would be easier to penetrate

[wise canyon]

On plate armour from the 1400's onwards, everything was rounded and smooth to prevent any sharp objects gaining purchase. instead they would slide off. So very very very unlikely, but still possible

[muted dew]

So much force that if the pine was moving at human speeds you would just push him back long before going through

[feral lily]

wut

what does this mean

[restive barn]

rate my sybau photo

[feral lily]

it could and would often happen if armour was damaged at all, which was common since armour was generally not single use

[modest whale]

let me ask reddit what that means

[wise canyon]

If the armour was repaired before that fight, definitely not. Cracked armour when repaired is much much more hardened, but also more brittle. So it would take more force to break it, but the break if it happened would be much worse

[restive barn]

it means “silence” or “refrain from speaking”

[muted dew]

He would just get pushed backwards

[modest whale]

im asking reddit sybau

🥀

[feral lily]

if it was repaired before the fight, it would still be easier since repaired steel is much weaker than pristine

[tired prism]

make a giant ass sword for the 1.5x scaled enemies

that you can posess

ill show you the biggest weapon i can find compared to them lmao

[restive barn]

I KNOOOWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[modest whale]

at least a lot/10

[tired prism]

know more!

know it moreee!!

[restive barn]

HRRR RNRRRHRHRGGG

[feral lily]

dang i wanna clarify but it gonna be buried so ima wait for next comment

weaker in stabby stabby sense i mean

[wise canyon]

It's not. It's hardened. Hardened things don't bend, they break. To penetrate something at this level of physics, it needs to be soft and bendable. A sharp spike on the end of a stick would not have what it takes to punch a hole into steel plate. Having said that though, longbows with bodkin arrow heads would penetrate steel plate, but that's working with smaller points and much higher speeds

[tired prism]

aside from the golden halbred this thing weighs twice as much and is smaller lol

probably

[modest whale]

how is willie's chest so sculpted but his arms are weak

i don't understand

[muted dew]

And they still have no chance against the chest plate

[rocky wave]

is it normal that i broke a willies neck and he's still alive ?

[wise canyon]

Ever seen historical armour in museums? dudees with skinny as shit but insanely fit

[waxen lance]

then ye didnt break his neck

[feral lily]

he just said bodekin arrows could piece

[fierce acorn]

i accidenatlly switched graphics to cinematic now i cant play half swerd how to fix?

[rocky wave]

i heard the crack and his head is all wiggly

[modest whale]

yeah but i feel like his arms should be more defined

[wise canyon]

Bodkins from longbows could pierce breastplates. But a spear or pike, possible but very very unlikely to ever happen

[restive barn]

do you hve my weapon pack

chrome334 weapon pack 2

[feral lily]

EXACTLY

THAT WAS MY POINT

[gloomy bridge]

was stabbing something meant to be added or did they just make a simple movment of the hand and call it a day

[feral lily]

IT COULD HAPPEN

[fierce acorn]

pls guys help

i wanna play half sword

[feral lily]

BUT THE EFFGORT WAS BETTER USED AIMING AT WEAK POINTS

[restive barn]

brubh

[gloomy bridge]

play it

[wise canyon]

Yes but only under very specific circumstances. It would never happen in a standard duel

[restive barn]

then play it dumby

[fierce acorn]

i cant

[modest whale]

alamy alamy alamy alamy

[tired prism]

im using the katana

[feral lily]

EXACTLY

[gloomy bridge]

then why not

[fierce acorn]

i literally cant dude

[tired prism]

im seeing if its blunt because the other one from vicious pack was shit and blunt

[restive barn]

okay but do you have the weapon pack

[feral lily]

THATS ANOTHER PART OF WHAT I SAID

[tired prism]

i just have the katana not the weapon pack

[fierce acorn]

read man

[gloomy bridge]

how tf are we supposed to help you

[feral lily]

CAUSE I WAS ALSO TAKING ABOUT LIKE IN A BATTLE

[wise canyon]

Oh well I didn't see those points

[tired prism]

ill get it if it looks cool

[restive barn]

brubh download chrome334 weapon pack 2

[gloomy bridge]

all you said is you cant

[restive barn]

okay

[tired prism]

do you have really big swords

[gloomy bridge]

so why not

[tired prism]

that arent as heavy as a train

[feral lily]

yeah all you knew was that other guys bold misinterpretation of what I was saying

[tired prism]

alright chrome im gonna test your katana if its blunt i kill you if its not i give you a well done

[restive barn]

yes

[wise canyon]

For this to happen, it would have to be a very strong dude, with a running start, excellent accuracy and hit the flattest part of the plate possible. Then maybe. But again, not likely to ever happen

[tired prism]

ima use it

[feral lily]

he was also saying bodekin arrows couldn't piece plate armour

[tired prism]

based on the pictures of the mod

[restive barn]

https://tenor.com/view/sweating-gif-nervous-gif-3981283373071006004

[modest whale]

ill do it

[tired prism]

the katana HAS NO PIERCE

[modest whale]

💪

[tired prism]

I KILL YOU

ITS BLUNT AND SHARP

😭

ok fine it cut his leg off

[feral lily]

not nessicerily, hitting with some force would create a small recess that then, as the spear continues to be pressed, would center it and assist in further puncturing the plate

but it is still very unlikely to happen

[tired prism]

after 30 hits...

[wise canyon]

Bodkin arrows and longbows dominated full plate armour in the battle of Agincourt. Also some videos of people shooting bodkin arrows from long bows at half the poundage of what was used back then and still pierces authentically forged armour

[tired prism]

i like the katana design 100 percent its peak

[gloomy bridge]

read what brochapacho

[tired prism]

the slice factor is low and doesnt pierce

but thats just limitations

i like it

[feral lily]

yeah he was saying they didn't work at all and I was like, that was kinda their point

[tired prism]

katanas are dope

[restive barn]

thats the point

[tired prism]

why

what

[restive barn]

its supposed to be agile not heavy and slow

[tired prism]

okay buttttt i want it to slice limbs!

[restive barn]

maybe ill make one

[tired prism]

yess

[restive barn]

in pack 3

[tired prism]

nagitana

[crude flower]

it was also made out of not so great steel

[restive barn]

okay now try pack 2

[tired prism]

great katana

the great katana nagitana

[restive barn]

odachi is already done btw

[tired prism]

how many do you have

[wise canyon]

Maybe a divot in plate is one thing, but having the force needed to punch through is something else entirely

[tired prism]

or is it in one pack

[restive barn]

https://www.nexusmods.com/halfsword/mods/66

[tired prism]

thx

ok the first weapon i see

looks good

[restive barn]

2 so far

[tired prism]

this'll be fun

[muted dew]

I said bodkin couldn’t pierce the chestplate

[tired prism]

banner looks fire

big sword

[feral lily]

a divot means it is easier to continue puncturing, think like its easier to continue drilling after youvé already made a small hole

[tired prism]

yknow the wind sword from elden ring near the end of the DLC? i like those cleaver looking blades

its the coolest one i found

[feral lily]

the other guy just agreed it could\

[wise canyon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf7KCqQLw78

[tired prism]

holy shit theres like 50 weapons

[restive barn]

44*

technically 44

[feral lily]

what does bro think solid steel plate means

[tired prism]

theres armors and no armors

[restive barn]

its actually 22 weapons theres just 2 variants each

[tired prism]

i think im going for all armored

[wise canyon]

Drilling is very different. Drilling digs the material out while puncturing moves the material out of the way, which is much harder

[restive barn]

each have unique tiers

[tired prism]

or do i really want armor actually

[fierce acorn]

i hope MENU.mp4 becomes a playable map, loks sick ngl

[tired prism]

is armored the higher damage? or is it just armor only

[restive barn]

armored just armor

[tired prism]

ok okay thanskz

[feral lily]

but also like, its easier to hit a nail into something when youve already made the groove cause it helps straighten it

that was my main point wit that

[tired prism]

by far the shovel from another weapon pack was the best and coolest one so far it was like a hammer with blades that could cut properly

(for once)

[feral lily]

so the angle doesn't matter if a groove is made in it

[restive barn]

did u know theres a song in the game called Warhorns of blood that has never been uploaded to YT?

[wise canyon]

Sure but that takes two strikes. No way someone has the accuracy to hit that tiny little spot again. In controlled conditions, yes it will go through. But the same can be said of rubbing the metal away with friction from your finger. Possible in a controlled setting, but not gonna happen in a real situation

[feral lily]

wait yo you made that pack???

[restive barn]

i made a shovel too

[muted dew]

Skimmed through the video and could find him penetrating the chestplate.

[tired prism]

i saw

[restive barn]

which are u referring to

[wise canyon]

Could or couldn't?

[feral lily]

so, we're right??

[restive barn]

which weapon pack

[tired prism]

a gold long sword

[feral lily]

did u make that pack wit like the mancatcher and harpoon?

[tired prism]

BEAUTIFUL

[feral lily]

or am i thinking another one

[muted dew]

Typo. He never penetrated the chestplate just the aventsil above it

[restive barn]

i made chrome334 weapon pack not vicious weapon pack

[muted dew]

Couldn’t

[wise canyon]

There's a hole in the chest plate made in the previous video that you can see in that video. But here is the prpevious video which shows it happening https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds-Ev5msyzo&t=115s

[tired prism]

the katana is actually so good what

im gonna try it

[restive barn]

bitter relative is ridiculously popular so 7/8 time theyre talking about him

[tired prism]

this better cut things in half frfr

katanas are made for that

[feral lily]

ahh i think ive played that one too

[restive barn]

uh

[feral lily]

i installed both so i didn't know which is fromm which

[restive barn]

which betre chrome334 weapon or vicious weapon

[tired prism]

why do i see them cutting pillars of thick hide in training grounds but this one cuts like its hitting stone

it didnt really cut but i love it

[feral lily]

uhhh\

uhhhhhhh

ong dont know which weapon from which

[restive barn]

and why exactly do u think that way

[wise canyon]

@muted dew about 32 minutes in

[restive barn]

yeah, katanas are hard to fine tune

[tired prism]

chrome is an architectural genius with how light his blades are when he wants them to be.. you make them look this nice with the littlest of weight

[restive barn]

so when i replaced the guard and others something was bound to change

[feral lily]

but gonna say yours or else you gonna hunt me down and steal my kidneys\

[restive barn]

most the time its by making stuff very thin

[tired prism]

fair

[restive barn]

but sometimes that doesnt work and the weapon goes off balance

so usually weapons are either too heavy or light

[tired prism]

theres an odachi

[restive barn]

so i have to refine the scales

[restive barn]

yes, however it’s not exactly my proudest work

[muted dew]

The hole was done using a hardened bodkin. Tods himself says we got no evidence those existed

[tired prism]

bullshit its good

[restive barn]

big blade!!

[storm kettle]

Big Japan sword

[feral lily]

You should add uhhh

Uhh

I forgor 💀

[storm kettle]

Also how do you add these custom titles to yourself

[restive barn]

what

[feral lily]

join a server that has them and then equip in settings

[storm kettle]

Aight

[feral lily]

have you done one for armour?

[storm kettle]

Peak

[keen bay]

Imagine making weapon pack containing all french polearms
(Theres lot of them)

[wise canyon]

Lack of evidence is not an evidence of lack. Just gotta use logic to determine the outcome here. If they had access to steel hardening technology, which they did, and they knew they were going up against many heavily armoured targets and their longbows would be their biggest advantage, it's safe to assume until opposing evidence is presented that they used them

[tired prism]

i have strength 3.0

[feral lily]

if not it'd be great, I really want a greathelm in this game

[tired prism]

and its still heavy

[restive barn]

odachi for armo?

[restive barn]

eh maybe

[tired prism]

the last swing is the only good hit i got

[storm kettle]

https://tenor.com/view/imostergolfra-gif-25274972

[tired prism]

and even then

didnt slice it in half

[restive barn]

what can i say katanas re hard

[tired prism]

ive never done it

i still like it

[muted dew]

Fair point. Although since we have no surviving examples we can also assume they where far from standard

[tired prism]

i dont know anything about this stuff lol

[wise canyon]

I love it when someone who hasn't engaged in a discussion once, suddenly decides to comment on a response being longer than 1 sentence

[storm kettle]

I want a sword

[restive barn]

now move on before you lose your braincells

[wise canyon]

Fair. But they definitely had bodkins. So now we just need to see a video of non hardened bodkins being shot at full plate

[feral lily]

add a massive candelstick

[storm kettle]

I've been here for awhile

[feral lily]

like 5 times the size of a normal candelstick

like the mother of all candelsticks

[wise canyon]

Yes but you haven't engaged in this debate

[storm kettle]

True

But

Funny

[crude flower]

don't think that matters

[storm kettle]

Or smth

[wise canyon]

Subjective but I'll take your word for it

[restive barn]

ehhhh…

[fierce acorn]

just give up willie 😭

[storm kettle]

Nice pfp and name

[feral lily]

add a mini willie as a weapon

[crude flower]

[feral lily]

joke weapon pack would go hard

[storm kettle]

Real

[tired prism]

its gonna get worse

[feral lily]

and'd fit right in line with what most people do with half sword mods

[tired prism]

alot MORE worse

[fierce acorn]

ok

[storm kettle]

I've seen your horrors

[tired prism]

wdym ok

[feral lily]

like I wanna be a giant weilding a massive candelstick

[wise canyon]

@muted dew also just saw this

Computer analysis by Mariusz Magier, Adrian Nowak and others published in 2017 found that heavy bodkin point arrows could penetrate typical plate armour of the time at 225 metres (738 ft).

[tired prism]

yes you know of my great sane methods

i saw the big noses emo kid pfp

LOL

[muted dew]

The video you sent does that exact thing where they barely leave a dent on the chestplate but pierce the spaulders and chainmail

[tired prism]

bro that meme everywhere i swear

[storm kettle]

Sane is questionable

[tired prism]

its confirmed

[wise canyon]

Barely leave a dent? There's two holes in it from the arrows

[feral lily]

😭 😭 😭

did bro watch the video

[muted dew]

But where on the body tho? Thickness varies a lot

[feral lily]

also those werent even the heaviest bows available

[storm kettle]

Also what are we talking about

[wise canyon]

Centre left and lower centre right

[storm kettle]

I'm not in the loop

[tired prism]

modernised bows might aswell be the new snipers

[wise canyon]

bodkin arrows being able to penetrate breastplates

[tired prism]

considering how rediculous their power is

[storm kettle]

Ohhhh

[muted dew]

Look at 9:40

[feral lily]

and this dave guy is arguing they couldn't, dispite that being their point

[feral lily]

what... bro one failed test doesn't invalidate the others

if you get a single question wrong on a quiz you dont get 0% ong

[wise canyon]

Yes but that hit at a bad angle. It would have done much more at 90 degree angle. Also the very centre of a breastplate is the strongest part

The arrows still put two holes in the breast plate in other places

[storm kettle]

If the entire point of the arrow is to be penetrable its gonna penetrate

[muted dew]

The ones at 9:40 is non hardened bodkins. The lack of surviving examples means they must have been far from standard issue

[late phoenix]

@wispy bobcat #general-catfish-🐱🐟 message

[wise canyon]

Agincourt was far from a standard battle

[late phoenix]

This can't be allowed right

[feral lily]

bro, it was tech they would have had back then

[feral lily]

which they proceeded to say\

in no uncertain terms

[muted dew]

What I’m saying is that non hardened bodkins where far more common

[wise canyon]

Just stood there and took it

[feral lily]

they they would have had hardened bodekins

[feral lily]

NO WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING IS THAT HARDENED BODEKINS DIDN'T EXIST

[muted dew]

And what I’m saying is since we have no surviving hardened bodkins today they must have been somewhat rare

[wise canyon]

Of course, but doesn't disprove their use in Agincourt

[tired prism]

this is normal

[muted dew]

Bro are you even listening to what I’m saying?

[feral lily]

maybe its cause hardened= more brittle

so doesn't survive the test of time as well

[feral lily]

your arguments insue a lack of existance

[late phoenix]

https://tenor.com/view/lilnouns-nouns-lil-nouns-dao-noggles-gif-27131043

[wise canyon]

Hardened steel doesn't just dissolve over time haha. Not within 1000 years anyway

[late phoenix]

Kiss already

[tired prism]

if i hear anyone argue one more time they're bad at half sword how about that

they will stop arguing

because they dont wanna be bad

[restive barn]

im back

[tired prism]

at half sword

[wise canyon]

You filming?

[restive barn]

i have pings turned off

[feral lily]

if they existed, which they almost certainly did, then they would have been able to piece plate armour, you are saying none could therefore you are saying they didn't exist

[tired prism]

i pinged you like once

[restive barn]

@restive barn

[muted dew]

I concede that a hardened bodkin can penetrate the thinner parts of the chestplate. But once again the lack of surviving examples means that unhardened must have been far more common

[restive barn]

i know im just saying

[late phoenix]

Yes

https://tenor.com/view/cristiano-ronaldo-recording-gif-16005081735307115323

[tired prism]

bad at half sword

[feral lily]

but how do you know that

[wise canyon]

Good

[tired prism]

for arguing

[feral lily]

good, you can see this mans struggle to assemble a consistant and sensical argument

[lone smelt]

chrome334 pls

[wise canyon]

Of course. And it's possible they weren't used at Agincourt, but I do find it quite likely considering how effective archery was against full plate in that battle

[muted dew]

If there was anywhere close to as many made as the unhardened we would have surviving examples

[late phoenix]

Yapping

[feral lily]

lack of evidence does not equal evidence

[tired prism]

bro yall are just so bad at half sword cuz ur arguing its a random lump of steel straightened into something else its not that deep

[wise canyon]

What do you do for fun?

[tired prism]

this or just some other games i play

[muted dew]

Are you even listening? I’m not saying they didn’t exists I’m saying they didn’t exist in comparably large numbers since that would make it highly unlikely that we have no surviving examples.

[wise canyon]

Okay, well you go do that while we do what we find fun

[tired prism]

cyberpunk 2077 was shit at the start but its good now

is arguing

fun

[late phoenix]

Shh it's entierement for usp

entrainement*

[wise canyon]

Hell yeah it is. And if you keep going I'm going to argue with you on how it can be fun

[feral lily]

what we do in fact KNOW is that hardened bodekins would have successfully pierced plate armour, that hardened bodekins would have been able to be made quite easily at the time, that there were records of archery being very effecting against full plate armoured soldiers and that years of warring would have most likely taught the people what does and doesn't work, and these work.

[tired prism]

ig u guys can get warns then if it gets too outta hand

[feral lily]

https://tenor.com/view/timbersshivered-yikers-gif-23072365

[muted dew]

I am once again saying that I don’t think they didn’t exist. Just not in large numbers compared to regular bodkins

[late phoenix]

what's the point of the argument exactly?

[late phoenix]

It's extremely hard to get a warn and this will definitely not get them one lol

[wise canyon]

It's actually a giant medieval conspiracy and their existence was hidden.

Which is actually possible, jokes aside. If they were used at Agincourt for the first time, they may have been kept secret to prevent other nations from learning of them and using them. And pretty much all surivors of the battle on the French side were executed, nobles and all. So it's possible (but far fetched) that the English army at Agincourt were the only ones to ever use them or know of them

[tired prism]

to see what lump of steel is better as dookie or bookie

[wise canyon]

I mean, it's been pretty friendly so far, for the most part

[feral lily]

dave, before you say this image from nic\ supports you, id like to point out that you previously dismissed AI as evdidence at all.

[late phoenix]

google ai i believe searches through every source about the search and gives information about it I think?

[muted dew]

I intentionally ignored his image because it was ai

[feral lily]

and the lack of insistance from you for sources on this information should thus barr you from referencing this information

[muted dew]

Google ai is shit

[feral lily]

that was the point I made to him before too lol

[wise canyon]

Yes but based on common info. And we all know what common info says about Viking helmets and horns

[feral lily]

buddy just hates ai, i think it stole his job of someshit

[muted dew]

Why are you trying to use someone else’s bad source against me?

[storm kettle]

What'd I miss

[feral lily]

im not im using your own logic to prevent you referencing this

[muted dew]

I didn’t refer to it so why did you bring it up?

[late phoenix]

You have yet to send any type of sources proving it argue how my source is bad but at least send some sources of your own

What exactly is the point here?

I don't get it

[feral lily]

EXACTLY THATS WHAT I TOLD HIM BEFORE

[wise canyon]

This debate has become less about the topic and more about discrediting each other now

[storm kettle]

What I'm getting is that bro is fighting a losing battle

[wise canyon]

Best battle to fight

[muted dew]

Google ai is notorious for being wrong 50% of the time so it’s best to just ignore it and read up yourself

[feral lily]

bro realised his wrong 10 minutes ago just trynna save face ong

[storm kettle]

So send your own sources

[muted dew]

About arrows vs plate? Already did

[feral lily]

this is irrelivant to what I am saying. I gave you sources and you tried to discredit them

previously i mean

dont say it was ai i gave you websites

and you couldn't even be bothered reading them

[feral lily]

just went "nuh-uh"

[muted dew]

Your sources was ai and then it was just different wikis in general. Not specific articles just the whole wiki

[late phoenix]

so that just proves it shouldn't be revelant because it's a bad source got it but you still have yet to send any sources this is just going to be a back to back and going to end up in everyone insulting each other this argument will be useless until someone sends a source

[tired prism]

bro is not anakin skywalker by the lava

[feral lily]

I GAVE YOU SPECIFIC ARTICLES WDYM FROM 2 MUSEUMS AND AN EDU SITE

[late phoenix]

Everyone will think they're right and it won't change until good sources are given

[muted dew]

https://youtu.be/ds-Ev5msyzo?si=iBcFXQXkMpZcWD1W
already gave it a while back but here you go

[feral lily]

BRO YOUR BACK ON THIS

[muted dew]

You did?

[feral lily]

REALLY

[feral lily]

YES DID YOU NOT READ THEM

[tired prism]

he might have adhd like me

i hate reading

[feral lily]

FROM SOMEONE WHO IS CONSTANTLY INSISTING ON SOURCES YOU SURE HAVE AN ALLERGY TO READING THEM

[tired prism]

😭

[feral lily]

ikr

[muted dew]

I did read the Wikipedia for awl pikes and it said nothing about it’s effectiveness on plate

[late phoenix]

I am no longer sure what we're arguing about

[feral lily]

YOU READ THE FIRST ARTICLE I LINKED EXPLAINING WHAT AN AWL PIKE WAS AND WAS LIKE, THIS ONE DOESN'T MEANTION IT SO NONE OF THEM DO

[storm kettle]

Neither

[rich tulip]

unrealistic, where's the gore and the blood? also why's ur character bald

[wise canyon]

It went back to a different debate

[muted dew]

It’s allegedly a discussion about the effectiveness of plate armor

[lone smelt]

It occurs to me that discord is one of the worst places to have an academic discussion

[late phoenix]

What the fuck I thought it was about if hardened bodekins were common or whatnot

[storm kettle]

Allegedly is crazy

[feral lily]

its a discussion where all of this persons arguments have been disprooved and dismanteled and he is still arguing for some reason

[wise canyon]

I would like to discuss this

[storm kettle]

We aren't in court

[late phoenix]

Depends on the people I guess

but so far it seems they have been insulting each other

[feral lily]

it would have ended ages ago if this guy could just concede defeat 🥀 🥀

[wise canyon]

Not really, he’s been wrong about one thing but no one knows about whether hardnened bodkins were used

[lone smelt]

I just mean that anyone can say anything and there is no real peer review

[lone smelt]

You amaze me.

[late phoenix]

We're hardened bodkins just better against armor?

[muted dew]

If you bothered to read my messages you would know I conceded that hardened bodkins could pierce the thinner parts of chestplates although the lack of surviving examples means that there where likely far fewer than regular bodkins

[wise canyon]

Yes, if they were used back then

[feral lily]

hes been wrong on one thing and changed his argument on the other so much the transformers would be impressed

Autobots roll out ahh argument

[wise canyon]

He's conceded on at least 2 points so far. On your debate on if a pike can pen plate, no. Not in any realistic setting

[storm kettle]

Anyway gtg

[lone smelt]

The effectiveness of an argument should not be affected by how much you insult your arguee, but unfortunately with the Internet the loudest people always win

[feral lily]

No he never concerned that

[storm kettle]

Bye guys, girls, gays, and everyone in-between

[muted dew]

Would you prefer if I just said Nuh uh instead of responding tocyoue arguments

[muted dew]

https://tenor.com/view/cry-sad-toy-story-woody-so-long-partner-gif-9797730

[wise canyon]

I didn't say he did on that point

[late phoenix]

I don't see how they couldn't have been used back then maybe not as common as normal bodkins though

[muted dew]

@wise canyon dawg I gotta respect you ability to stay impartial👍

[grave valve]

should i grind UC....

[tired prism]

hes two face

[wise canyon]

They definitely could have been, but no historical evidence has been found

[feral lily]

I would prefer if you didn't have one argument, keep changing it when presented with evidence and demand evidence while not providing your own.

[muted dew]

They where probably used but since there are no surviving examples it can’t have been in large numbers

[wise canyon]

I try to, but bias is bias haha

[late phoenix]

I see

So basically hardened bodekins were most likely just not as used as normal bodekins

I don't see what's the debate about

[feral lily]

anyway any of yall hate t3 boss

[muted dew]

Shall I refer to the video again?

[feral lily]

ong I swear the dude has plot armour of somethn

[lone smelt]

Can't hate on ovrdth

[lone smelt]

I'm pretty sure he does

[muted dew]

Honestly don’t see what python is stuck on

[feral lily]

one source is not enough lil bro provide another and that doesn;t proove the point i was making at all

• moved on

[grave valve]

im grinding UC no one can stop me

[wise canyon]

The bodkin debate started off as whether or not they could pen a breastplate, which as the videos I linked showed that hardened bodkins can, but hardened bodkins aren't proven to have been used then

[grave valve]

also greetings upon you, o'wise tree

[feral lily]

good luck wit uc

its painful ah

[grave valve]

it is

[feral lily]

but when you finnaly beat it

[grave valve]

but i will remember what i learned

[feral lily]

glorious

[grave valve]

also, are we talking about if you can pen plate armor or not?

[wise canyon]

Yes

[muted dew]

It doesn’t get much more reliable than literally doing shooting a accurate chestplate

[grave valve]

well the answer is no, no you realyl cant

[late phoenix]

I mean not hate tbh I got him on my 2nd try with a sword after surrendering but I know a lot of people died to Him a ton I honestly find him more annoying then anything although I'm not sure why he was a late class weapon for whatever reason at T3

[grave valve]

unless you have a gun or something big you are, most likely, not getting through plate

[feral lily]

Oh.. my... god..... bro gimmie another source that actually uses the weapon being talked about or hush

[wise canyon]

You're jumping in quite late here haha. You definitely can, the question though, is with what

[tired prism]

two face..

[grave valve]

i dont think i have ever heard of any weapon that could reliably go through plate

(at least in real life)

as a note, im excluding gun weapons here. there's a reason plate armor fell out of favor and fast when they became widely available afterall

[fast bramble]

@tender quest How's this for greatsword

[muted dew]

It is literally about longbows. And shooting period accurate armor with period accurate arrows. Doesn’t get much more reliable than that

[summer pollen]

quite a coincidence

[late phoenix]

#halfsword-chat-⚔ message

[feral lily]

hardened bodekin arrows and it was__ theoretically__ possible for some spears such as the awl pike

[feral lily]

ok back to your old argument I see, autobots roll out ahh

[grave valve]

well, okay,

i stand corrected.

[late phoenix]

Couldn't normal bodekins also pierce chest plate?

[grave valve]

you could pierce plate with some arrows

[late phoenix]

bro what

[summer pollen]

only things i know of that can puncture plate are lances, gunpowder weaponry and polehammers

[wise canyon]

Use logic here. A historical long required 180 pounds of force to pull back, the arrows were very thick and the heads were very pointed, and they can still struggle to penetrate. A bloke with a long and likely flexible metal pike would not have the momentum or velocity behind the thrust to do that

[grave valve]

(and, evidently, you absolutely could pierce the weaker parts of armor such as shoulders and the open gaps with chain)

very fascinating!

[feral lily]

we settled this before thats why i said theoretically

[late phoenix]

Yea you definitely stand corected

[grave valve]

thanks for showing me this ^^

[late phoenix]

-# not

[muted dew]

Tf you mean old argument. It’s the same pne

[wise canyon]

Theory and practice are different things. Like I said earlier, in a controlled setting it's possible, but extremely unlikely in reality

[feral lily]

we agreed upon this

[grave valve]

also, this thought occurs to me too

[lone smelt]

Yep.

[grave valve]

in a real battle scenario, you aren't exactly...

[feral lily]

ok, what exactly are you arguing here.

[grave valve]

taking aimed shots with your bow

it's you and a lot of other dudes firing in volleys

and so we are then talking.. what, a few hundred arrows at a time? flying towards one group of people?

[feral lily]

I mean ity could be against one person

[grave valve]

could be, but highly, HIGHLY, unlikely

[wise canyon]

Yep, a lot of chances to not only hit armour gaps, but also poorly forged parts of armour. A few pikemen don't have those same odds, let alone the physics to do it

[feral lily]

if you had armour piercing arrows, you'd wanna aim at the guy with armour

[grave valve]

mmmm..? well,

speakign a little bit from experience with HEMA and stuff (my old club was centered around polearms and such)

it's... insane luck that lets you through against plate armor, really

[wise canyon]

One thing I want to throw in here as well though, bodkin arrow tips back in the day were nicknamed 'plate cutters'

[grave valve]

you thrust, perfect amount of power, perfect posture, like

the thrust of a lifetime

[late phoenix]

You said you can't pierce armor excluding guns when it's not exactly true sure I imagine it could be diffcult to hit a knight with a bow in battle(also I think you would shoot during volleys with a couple hundred people less more whatnot but you definitely could pierce armor with it) but I don't think you ever mentioned anything about battles in your first message

[feral lily]

why willie kinda

[muted dew]

That unhardened bodkins can’t penetrate chestplates.
Hardened bodkins can penetrate the thin parts of chestplates but where very likely very few.
Tods workshops video is as reliable as it gets since its period accurate arrows against period accurate armor

[feral lily]

caked up

[wise canyon]

I've done re-enactment and buhurt as well, and yep. That kind of luck just isn't going to be seen in a battlefield

[grave valve]

it's not that, it's that you miss your thrust

or aim it slightly off to the side

[modest whale]

he ate cake

[grave valve]

congrats! it's now going to glance off and do nothing

[feral lily]

that is not the heaviest or most powerful bow that was used at the time

[late phoenix]

I imagine not many people had plate armor either

[grave valve]

or, as we almost discovered with sheer horror, you go through the visor. we damn near blinded the guy and i dont think i have seen any of us drop our shit that fast to go make sure someone is okay

[wise canyon]

Those variables are also applicable. What I'm saying is for a pike to penetrate a breatplate, many variables need to align

[feral lily]

expensive, and heavy as hell, very few would be equipped with it

[grave valve]

im agreeing with you

[wise canyon]

Ah, the tone seemed like you weren't haha

[grave valve]

im pointing out that even if you have the perfect thrust, even the slightest misalingment will cause the damn thing glance off the armor

impact, and then just.. slide off..

it's fucking absurd to behold, im sure you've seen it in buhurt too

[wise canyon]

Yep, exactly why breastplates have a curve or even straight ridge down the centre

[feral lily]

real question

[grave valve]

i really could have been clearer, i will admit this now

[feral lily]

would you rather

violently fart every time you laugh

or

[grave valve]

in practice your options for beating armor amount to:

guns
blunt force
or a spike like we see on some halberds

[wise canyon]

No we don't allow any thrusting motions in buhurt. But we do see swords and axes glance off rounded helmets

[feral lily]

smell like straight dookie perminently

[late phoenix]

Bro what???

Like genuinely what

💀

[grave valve]

wait seriously?

[feral lily]

look at previous messages

[grave valve]

safety thing or?

[late phoenix]

Yes

That's making me even more confused

[feral lily]

would you rather violently fart every time you laugh or perminently smell real bad

[late phoenix]

Not that type of confused where I can't understand 💔

[feral lily]

bro wants both

[late phoenix]

No I don't

NO I DONT

[wise canyon]

Yep. Full force is used in buhurt, and the best way to kill a fully armoured opponent in a duel was to stab their armour gaps, so we don't allow it because it's very very dangerous. I've also stabbed my friend in the neck during a really bad move, luckily I pulled back before any real damage was done

[feral lily]

bro trynna fuigure out if they stack with whats currenrtly going on or if nothing changes

[grave valve]

are you usign sharps or ...?

i can't imagine any other situation where a thrust could be more than a potential avenue to injury

[wise canyon]

Blunt, but a blunt sword will still easily pierce flesh

[lyric vigil]

https://tenor.com/view/lotta-words-wow-thats-a-lot-of-words-not-reading-that-not-reading-wow-gif-26878516

[grave valve]

are the tips rounded like we do in HEMA?

[feral lily]

wait, do you wear like armour for it

[grave valve]

because that, really, REALLY, won't pierce your skin unless you are absolutely trying to

[wise canyon]

Yep, but we have varying circumference at the tip. Arming swords still have a point, as rounded as it is. But falchions are very very blunt

[late phoenix]

So many rules in hema and buhurt I personally just buy two real swords no armor and fight to the death with homeless ppl I met on the street

[grave valve]

huh

well, the more you know i guess

[feral lily]

ong

[wise canyon]

Yep, full steel plate armour from the 1400's to the 1700's, double the thickness of what was used back in the day for safety reasons because every strike is concussive rather than slice or pierce

[feral lily]

I just get a sword and armour and fight the real life beggers

[feral lily]

what helmet

[wise canyon]

There's like 5 rules in Buhurt haha

[feral lily]

what helmet u use

[late phoenix]

I believe two consenting adults should be allowed to duel to the death in knight armor with any weapon that they want that is from the medieval era

[wise canyon]

It's called a Griffon, doesn't have a surviving phsyical piece but it's based off of paintings

[feral lily]

damn i was hoping

greathelm

cause

aura

[wise canyon]

100% bring back duels

[grave valve]

terrible idea

besides, duels are a nobles activity

[late phoenix]

Wasn't it a little impractical compared to others?

[grave valve]

(mostly)

[feral lily]

I beleive a concenting adult should be able to attack homeless people with a sword

[feral lily]

only with impairing vision i thought

[wise canyon]

Greathelms are batshit. They're called greathelms because they're made to fit over a bascinet, which is the most used helmet of the 1500's

[grave valve]

also, since we are talking about helmets

[late phoenix]

"terrible idea" I'm gonna go buy a homeless guy on the street 300 euros to fight me to the death in a duel

[grave valve]

sallet > all. i will not take criticism

[feral lily]

i thought they were pretty good but impaired vision

[wise canyon]

They were used in the crusades, wearing one helmet is stiffling enough, but two? No wonder they lost the Holy Land multiple times

[teal mural]

I do love a salet but I wouldn't want a bevor / gorget that didn't have a back piece

[feral lily]

i mean they were really good against blunt force

[late phoenix]

I believe because it was square it would not make weapons glance off but I presume it would depend on the great helm itself and how square it is

[grave valve]

same

i just grabbed a random image of one

[wise canyon]

Very protective sure, but insanely hot, quite heavy, hard to breathe

[feral lily]

then wear it ithout lower helmet so still aura

[late phoenix]

Also isn't this why they made helmets have visors so they can see?

[wise canyon]

Yes and no. Their shape allowed more blows to land instead of glancing off, but wearing two whole helmets will soften the kinetic energy a good amount

[teal mural]

It's important to note that the great helm is much earlier, starting around the 12th century and went over a steel skullcap. They were basically obsolete by the fifteenth.

[wise canyon]

That would be a sugarloaf helmet then, which is the same as the great helm but smaller and less able to absorb energy

[late phoenix]

I love the hounskull honestly call me simple Idc 💔

[grave valve]

i wont

i love the sallet

[wise canyon]

No, visors were made so they could still eat, drink, and breathe normally when not in a fight without having to take off their helmet

[late phoenix]

https://tenor.com/view/kcd-kcd2-kcd-promo-kcd-2-promo-knight-gif-12909173387285014776

[grave valve]

its like the pumpkin space latte of helmets

[feral lily]

But pointy top

[grave valve]

everyone likes the damn thing

[feral lily]

So less aura

[grave valve]

never underestiamte the logistical nightmare that could be armors

[late phoenix]

I heard some knights would keep their visors up in battle because they couldn't see

[wise canyon]

It's a very nice helmet

[grave valve]

probably happened in contexts where they aren't in the fight

battles are big as shit, and there's plenty of opportunities to be out of active fighting

[late phoenix]

to be fair you can barely see with some helmets

[wise canyon]

Getting kitted up in our buhurt gear took roughly 10-20 minutes ( we didn't rush though) and we'd be sweating by the time we were done haha

[late phoenix]

Let me use a example

[grave valve]

exactly!

[wise canyon]

Definitely happened

[abstract quiver]

Can you change the weapon swinging sensitivity

Or nah

[grave valve]

imagine if you were in the process of getting your gear on, and suddenly, oh shit

that's a LOT of fucking angry people on horseback with lances coming for us

[feral lily]

wait tyhe greathelm wasn't worn over another helmet

i googled

[wise canyon]

That's why raiding your enemies camp was so damn effective back then, no time for them to get their kit on

[grave valve]

similarly, imagine losing parts of your supply train

[feral lily]

@wise canyon

greathelm wasn't worn over

i googled

[grave valve]

suddenly, you have to lug a lot of your shit around personally rather than on a wagon or whatever

[feral lily]

but it was real hot and hard to see

[wise canyon]

Make sure it's not confusing it with the sugarloaf, they're the same shape but not the same helmet

[grave valve]

and, well, full plate could come up to 20kg~

[late phoenix]

Imagine trying to see in this shit bro I would just keep my visor up
(I know it might not be very historically accurate but some historically accurate ones looked like this and worse for vision)

[wise canyon]

Your squires still did all that for you

[grave valve]

which you now have to carry or wear... nearly constantly...

[feral lily]

no this references sugarload, but says sugarload is a greathelm with a more rounded top

[abstract quiver]

Imagine making a griffith character if there was detailed customization

[wise canyon]

Actually visibility is still much better than you'd think in this thing