💣┇weapons-gadgets

[unkempt moss]

Explain the numbers to me

[chilly granite]

For each class, left side is model, right side is cb repeater

First table is shots to kill

Each row is a number of headshots, so, first line is the shots to kill body shots
Then one headshot, rest body shots

Second table is time to kill

Third table is ttk advantage ( just the difference between the two guns on the second table)

Right now there's no breakpoint the model beats the cb without quickmelee or chip damage, even though the repeater can hit headshots to utterly destroy models ttk, and the model can reach 40m

[unkempt moss]

Whats your suggestion to fix that, but you cant say 180hp light.

Mostly because I don't see lights getting a buff like that.

[chilly granite]

This one doesn't need 180hp light, it's just needs a massive rof nerf to repeater

[unkempt moss]

Whats the RoF now? And what would you like it to go to

[chilly granite]

67 is what I tested mostly because funny number but it works out

With 180hp light, you can revert the model nerf so it has 117 damage and then it's even better

Rof now, you can see it on the chart, 72 model and 78+ repeater

Technically 78 is the minimum rof on the peater, our testing varied from 79-82

I used conservative numbers for charts where accurate numbers aren't known so I'm not misrepresenting

[unkempt moss]

And you want it down to 67?

[chilly granite]

At least, I'll send u the chart for 67 rof in a sec

67 is probably too fast considering it's competitive with sr84 with 67 while being on medium

[unkempt moss]

Youre good. Just walk me through it and I'll just believe what youre saying when it comes to the data.

Whats the rof on titan?

[chilly granite]

.86, I think that's 70?

72 is 83

67 is about .9

So anyway

With .9 cyclic rate on repeater, the repeater no longer beats the model on any bodyshot ttks

[unkempt moss]

What does .9 mean?

[chilly granite]

Seconds

Since their bodyshot shots to kill is the same, 0.9s per cyclic rate on reapater and 0.83(current/72rpm) on model would mean the model beats the repeater in cqb bodyshots

The higher hit damage means that model can also quickmelee combo a medium, which allows the model to beat the repeaters headshot ttk on medium in extremely close range

0.9 isn't bad enough to be acceptable vs sr84, but it at least makes the repeater balanced in respect to mediums own weapons (without a buff to light HP)

[analog pewter]

72 is inaccurate btw my testing suggested its around 68 I believe

[chilly granite]

For the model?

[analog pewter]

I believe so yeah

[chilly granite]

Cringe

Welp, 60rpm for the repeater then

To be fair, 67 would still technically work vs 68, but it's a tiny margin, small enough that I think double headshot would beat the quickmelee combo

[analog pewter]

https://www.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/1o6l4xu/the_most_recent_rofrelated_patch_note_says_the/

[unkempt moss]

One shot a second would feel so bad though.

[analog pewter]

It fires slower than the repeater

[chilly granite]

It has to fire slower than the model if it wants to keep these shot to kills

And if it wants to fire faster, it's gonna be a shitty pike

[chilly granite]

I mean, that was never in debate, the repeater is somewhere between 78 and 82 rpm, and the model on wiki is 72 at best

[unkempt moss]

If they were equal rof wouldn't that make them better in their ranges?

[chilly granite]

I'm suspicious that the wiki/patch note number is accurate but only partial information, as with the bow - the bow has a list rpm of 104? I think it was

It describes the re-arrowing time

So for the model, that might be the pump time, but there's some other element (recoil time maybe) before the pump happens

[unkempt moss]

Like model should win upclose and Repeater at range?

[analog pewter]

If they designed well yes but rn model loses at all ranges

[chilly granite]

No, because the shotgun has spread which means you need more cross hair on target, and the repeaters spread pattern is foolishly designed, so it's accurate like a shotgun when moving anyway

[analog pewter]

The model should shoot faster than the repeater full stop

[unkempt moss]

That would make sense to me.

[chilly granite]

Fundmamnetally having a single pixel of your xhair on someone is easier than having all your pellets on target

Missing two pellets per shot means that you're doing prebuff repeater Damage per shot (84)

[unkempt moss]

I'm just curious how much you could buff the fire rate on model before other things start to break

[chilly granite]

None

It got nerfed this hard for a reason

The model is a well balanced gun right now, why fuck with it when you could just shoot the problem child

[unkempt moss]

I'm just thinking of possibilities. Is there a break point on repeater where it would still take two headshots on medium and then require one headshot on light to kill?

[chilly granite]

Giving it 117 damage so you can quickmelee combo heavies and gain better damage consistency would be nice, but without giving light 180hp so they don't get quickmelee combod, it's impossible

[chilly granite]

Requires 180hp on light, which is why I'm busy dying on this hill

Not 180hp, but more than 150 iirc

[unkempt moss]

What if you reduced repeater damage to 74, but gave it a 1.75× crit?

[chilly granite]

84 damage per shot is minimum for two headshot medium, so 168hp minimum light

[chilly granite]

I can make a chart give a sec

[unkempt moss]

72 damage, 1.75x crit. Then it requires one headshot on a light. Then it still two headshots medium, requires three body shots on light or one headshot on body.

[chilly granite]

I asked embark for 1.75 mult on bow to help with the headshot breakpoints being excessively punishing on the bow, but they ignored me

[unkempt moss]

Theyre good at that.

[chilly granite]

I doubt they're any more willing to 1.75x than they are to do 180hp light

and 1.75x multi fixes the repeater, but not the bfr, or theproblem of light dying to a strong breese

[unkempt moss]

1.75 I think is an easier sell

BFR is a different problem

[chilly granite]

I think 180hp light and nerfing dash and invis is better for the health of new player retention and long termm game sustainability

easier sell that still results in game dead in a year vs hard sell that keeps it sustainable and maybe even growing

this is my suggestion

[serene glade]

You guys think this next Thursday patch will save the game?

[chilly granite]

depends what happens when I ping everyone at embark on monday

[chilly granite]

@analog pewter yeah, the pump time is what they measured, there's probably other parts of the cycle animation that thhey don't include

72 is the number on the wiki which I assumme was measured with some degreee of accuracy, so I'll trust it

[analog pewter]

"Effectively increasing the fire rate"

[chilly granite]

dude have you seen the bow patch notes

they do not know how to communicate clearly

[analog pewter]

Wiki is wishy washy lmao it's better to do your own testing

[chilly granite]

Increased rate of fire from 98 RPM to 103 RPM

BOW

98 RPM??????? 103 RPM????????

The cerberus is 100 rpm lmao

[unkempt moss]

Is that for full draw?

[chilly granite]

no, it's for no draw

what they are referring to as "rpm" is what I call the quiver time

the time from the arrow being loosed, to the point you can start the next draw

but arrows don't loose immediately, even with no actual draw, there's a minimum draw time

[unkempt moss]

What's the actual rate

[chilly granite]

previously it was 150ms, which mean that "98" rpm was actually78

[unkempt moss]

No draw and full draw

[chilly granite]

91rpm no draw

now (103 rpm, and 0.08 minimum draw instead of 0.15 minium draw)

and 52rpm fulldraw now, 103rpm

48rpm fulldraw before

but "rpm" is a grossly decieving metric when you aren't including a mandatory animation

measuring a single mandatory animation and calling it rpm is beyodn stupid

like, I could just choose the other mandatory animaton for the bow and say the rpm is from 400 to 750

there's a mandatory reload animation, and a mandatory pull animation, and they picked "A" and said rpm is teh duration of "A"

And previously, they called the minium draw time "damage ramp-up start time from 0.2s to 0.15s"

I literally complained to them that "damage ramp up start time" is grossly misleading and suggested calling it the minimum draw time, which is proably the only reason that the patch notes don't use the same shitty phrasing

[unkempt moss]

Embark is wild

[chilly granite]

honestly their dev team seems great

their balance team needs to get some soviet treatment

we had terrbile performance at start of patch and they had it fixed in a week

other games would've taken 3 months for that kinda fix

[unkempt moss]

Welp, I'm headed to bed.

Sleep tight, bud.

[chilly granite]

oh yeah I need to go to sleep

thanks for remidning me 🙂 dont wanna forget to sleep for another day and end up shitposting in here for 36h like the first time I came

[alpine sphinx]

do people who leave ranked get a flat SR penalty? or is it dependant on the placement of the team afterwards?

[analog pewter]

Lost 500 rs earlier in a match where my teammate rage quit so whatever amount they lose isn't enough.

If your teammate leaves in a ranked match you should be protected from rank loss

Idk why the fuck you aren't

Anyways i hope the next balance patch they do they buff demat

I miss it... I miss my demat.... why is it so rough now

I need them to fix the delay and the registration issues like asap

Idk how they even managed to cause registration issues like it has now

If they fixed demat and buffed model I would be a medium main again for sure

Both of them are so close to being just right, but they fall a little short

And they're so fun to use together

https://tenor.com/view/ivy-deadlock-ball-bounce-bouncer-gif-782304131420154717

I made it to green.....

[chilly granite]

You lose 7/8th rs as dcon penalty

Even if you were connected when your team gets to second round

And connected when your team loses second round

Because the server took 6mins to load

I'm still mad 😤

[chilly granite]

Bruh I got 4th place in a ranked game as a duo

We got 4th place with only two players

And we lost 300rs

With the rank compensation

That's a damn joke

[chilly granite]

Model doesn't need a buff, it just needs all the op shit to be deleted

[alpine sphinx]

wtf is this lobby man

[chilly granite]

I got no idea if the demat needs a buff or not, I hate that shit and I'm not smart enough to get value from it

[hardy dust]

Run bfr and have a field day

Free 20 bomb minimum waiting to happen 😭

[chilly granite]

Dude play bow and farm heads

Nothing feels better than head farming with bow

I gotta go through my recordings and clip some nice frags I've had some really good ones

I also have some great examples of sus ass aim assist

[stoic garden]

I've been having too much fun with it ngl, until the walls didn't close properly by using my charge and i got jumped

[chilly granite]

Man I really hate the dumb fuck arguments people make for aim assist, I got arthritis and it makes my aim way less consistent then it used to be because of the pain

But because my arthritis is even worse on controller, I don't get any aim assist but perfectly healthy people get aim assist on controller and can play at a way higher level than their actual skill level

Like, good controller players exist, they might not be as good as mnk players, but the best mnk players are probably worse than mouse and joystick players

If you want to be a professional player, learn the tools of the trade. That applies for any other job.

And if it's just ego padding, it's fine to have aim assist in casual modes, but aim assist has no place in a ranked mode which is meant to be balanced games based on your personal skill level.

Tbh I also don't think aim assist should be in team death match which is all about aim skill, but that's a hotter take and I'm a tdm main so I'm not gonna die on that hill

I've tried playing controller on my steam deck and the aim assist elevates my aim, far,far above my skill level on controller. I'm struggling to fit a light through a doorway and yet I'm beaming people with m11?????

Also I think there are issues with the aim assist working though flash/smoke when it shouldn't?

I mean, maybe it's when the flash is fading, but I couldn't see anything and yet I killed two people lmao

I can't see anything on the steam deck screen at all in general lmao, im playing 640x400 : 😭

[quiet gust]

what do you guys think are the top 3 best light weapons rn with the new xp-54 change?

[chilly granite]

Arn, arn and arn

[quiet gust]

i agree

[hardy dust]

M11, arn and probably v9s

[chilly granite]

Fundamentally, it doesn't matter because light just wants to shoot people in the asshole anyway, so any gun will work. So the main thing is to pick a weapon that works for your preference on ranges.

If you like fighting at 17-25m, the XP is the best weapon still

[hardy dust]

Lh1 if you can control it, but its tough

[chilly granite]

Lh1 is always the numerically best weapon, it's not that hard to hit bodyshots, but Even a singlr miss will make it worse ttk than the arn

So you need excellent consistency for the lh1.

The bow is the most dynamic. It can fight comfortably at the most ranges.

The v9s and arn are competitors, but they both lose damage at extreme distances and are pretty boring to use. Personally I would enjoy the v9s but the spam clicking bullies my arthritis

M11 is excellent if you enjoy heavy cqb gameplay

Matter, db, dagger and sword are all kinda weird

The matter doesn't win any fights in cqb, so you end up playing like a bow with harass and corner peeks

But the matter has much better dive than the bow, with the same bodyshot damage and a 50% faster fire rate

The double barrled is the matter but you win your fights, except tou have a really annoying reload afterwards. But there's a lot you can do to mitigate the reload problem, such as running nullifier.

The db is just better than the matter in most situations IMHO

Tks confuse me

Sword confuse me

Dagger ewewwwww

I think that's all the light weapons covered?

Tbh they're all very viable, it matters much more how you want to play

Oh, the m11/db are the only ones that can man fight heavy, but the arn doesn't need to manfight because range

[dreamy spruce]

Which is the right way to use the R.357
Open scope fire fire fire...
Open scope fire open scope fire....

[alpine sphinx]

I am so sick and tired of having medium teammates in ranked

its like none of them know how to use the defibrillator, they just spam it at any dead teammate, no matter if it would be better to safe revive or if its completely out in the open and a death sentence.
The Defi is such a stupid item because it is op but at the same time really fucking bad if absolute morons use it like they do

[stoic garden]

ranked mediums try not to run turret challenge (impossible)

[alpine sphinx]

much more healing beams lately from my experience

[stoic garden]

I've seen NONE

it's with turret or no mediums at all (so i gotta play medium)

[shell sonnet]

real

[thorn talon]

Believe me, it’s much worse having a light teammate in ranked. Some of them have less kills than a heavy, the class that was supposed to be bullet sponge

[willow warren]

can we buff smoke grenades' duration a bit, 9s on a 50s cooldown is rough for a puff of tobacco 😭

[indigo nexus]

I don't think the ADS time is fast enough and the downtime long enough for the latter option to be very practical

[frosty pike]

were dual blades changed/bugged to block 100% incoming bullets like a riot shield recently??

[indigo nexus]

oh, that's definitely some kind of bug

[frosty pike]

he knowingly swapped back to blades after using fcar for 1 fight, guy knows its broken

[indigo nexus]

I wouldn't say so without evidence that this issue is reproducible.

[frosty pike]

idk if its a one match thing but it was lasting for him

[indigo nexus]

Do you know that he was not taking damage? Like, when you finally did damage him, was he on full health beforehand?

[frosty pike]

yeah i have vid of the whole match, just didnt clip it yet

[indigo nexus]

So the server registered that the bullets should have been deflected, but didn't adminsiter the damage... hm

definitely worth a report

[frosty pike]

my death logs didnt show any dmg to him. all 3 of us never dmged or saw HP bar when shooting blocks. already reported

[serene hemlock]

All of them

[compact tundra]

What confuses you about sword my son, I shall help you along your path to enlightenment and being based on the superiority of sword

[chilly granite]

I don't understand the real advantages of the sword over the double barreled

But tbh I run a pretty low sensitivity, low enough that I can out track myself if I face stuff someone with DB, and I play with melee aim assist off because it was making me a lil nauseous with quickmelee

Swords numbers seem a little low and I don't really get how it's meant to work in cash out

In tdm, there's enough chip damage that it's not a big deal

[compact tundra]

That's the thing, it isn't rn. Double barrel and matter are just better sword, they have longer range, similar or better damage, and lower ttk's. Swords advantage is movement. It is the best movement item in the game even beating grapple and dash. It's a weapon that is good for utility and support, rather than straight fighting

[chilly granite]

Oh wepsngadgs, can I hear opinions on the idea of replacing unranked cash out with an experimental branch cash out?

So that balance team can keep a fast balance pace in cash out, ranked has a more stable balance tempo, but we aren't relying on embarks in house testing when they don't have a 99the percentile cb player to ruin their day

[chilly granite]

I'm a bad utility player, so I think sword hits all my weaknesses hahaha

Mostly I just sorta let my team die and then 1v3 and it's not intentional I promise 😭

that's probably also why I relatively underrate the matter to you guys, as I think the matter has the edge over the bow as a support weapon, even without facestuffing, but it only has an edge in "combat" if you're facestuffing, where the db is much better than it

as the matter doesn't lose dps to throwing gadgets, but the bow does

matter's facestuff dps being comprable to the bow's headshot dps, and "normal" dps being slightly lower than the bow's bodyshot dps (full drawn) (vibes based, I'd need to do some spread math to work out the nromal dps)

but the bow has better reach and breakpoints than the matter, making it much more consistent in a 1vx scenario

@coarse dragon the CB repeater is significantly better than the AKM, so I think your premise is fundamentally wrong

[coarse dragon]

i would disagree. on paper, sure. in game? no

the AKM is significantly more reliable, and that makes up for the difference in theoretical ttk

[compact tundra]

Uhm, repeater is the hard medium meta and has been that way for a while. Idk what post he's referring to but The repeater is by far the best medium weapon maybe besides pure headshot revolver

[chilly granite]

no hate bro, but youre skill issuing yourself

[coarse dragon]

again, you are talking about the theoretical perfomance. I am very good with the repeater, and it's very good. But the consistancy of it is holding it back

[coarse dragon]

also, im very good at the game, i dont need approval for others to know. talking like this just shows bad faith arguing.

[chilly granite]

to achieve equal performance with repeater and akm, you need to hit 7/8 shots on a light (akm), or 2/2 shots on a light with repeater

technically speaking, that's the akm being worse; for the akm to beat he repeater its 7/7

[coarse dragon]

we are not speaking the same language here. Yes, the TTK on the repeater may be faster in an ideal world. But with the ease of use, and actual TTK in Game, and the damage sharing between different guns from your teammates, means it isn't as black and white as you make it out to be. When you simplify the math so much, you get a simple answer.

[chilly granite]

These are ttk comparisons for the repeater and AKM, assuming 100% accuracy and a different number of headshots

realistically, 100% accuracy is significantly more realistic for the repeater because you can take more time to aim, and achieve the peak TTK

[unkempt moss]

I'd say its good, but I wouldn't call it experimental. Just keep dropping different adjustments and make it a feature of the weekly balance patch. Major changes would probably need to be an event.

[compact tundra]

Its consistency is great, it's mostly the ability to beam heads that holds it back, but that's more of individual skill rather than consistency. And AKM was by far the worst AR on medium and mediums worst automatic before the 9.7 F-car buff that actually nerfed it (idk how this affects the placements now). The famas is just straight better and the F-car was better because of its much superior range and ability to perform well in the poke meta. AKM might still be a decent gun but it isn't better nor more consistent than the Repeater

[chilly granite]

So, against medium, the repeater can hit 2 headshots in two shots, and kill in 0.76seconds.

Meanwhile with 100% headshots, the akm kills in 0.8s.

Realistically hitting 50% headshots, the akm kills in 1s. That means you can take 175ms extra to aim each repeater shot, and still beat an extremely good ttk on the AKM, with 100% accuracy and 50% headshots

that's why the repeater is more consistent. If you find the repeater is not consistent, you are likely rushing your shots

The akm is much more competative against heavy, but against medium andlight, the repeater is objectively better

[chilly granite]

the fcar change was firmly a sidegrade, I would hesitate to call it a buff or nerf. it's suhc a minute change

the biggest change is that you can sometimes save a bullet if you hit the right number of headshots, which is a firm buff to the small mag fcar

[compact tundra]

So it makes it a more headshot focused weapon?

[chilly granite]

it would be better to say it was a nerf if you don't aim for headshots, and a small buff if you do

[compact tundra]

Kinda like if we combined be lewis's range and ShAK's playstyle and handed to medium?

[chilly granite]

I wouldn't say it's any more headshot focused than it was before

[coarse dragon]

you cannot disprove my argument with tables of TTK, as that is not my argument. Im dropping consistantly 8-10k combat rounds in ranked and normal cashout with the AKM. i can't do that with another gun, as it's too inconsistant

[chilly granite]

That's fine for you, but the pros in tgm all ran cb on medium

[unkempt moss]

Post one of your games on YouTube. Let's see

[chilly granite]

like I enjoy the akm signficantly more than the cb, but the cb is also just better, even in my hands

[coarse dragon]

what the pros do is irrelevant? stop doing what others tell you to, and play the game yourself to see what works

[compact tundra]

Have you ever thought about maybe your better at a style of aim that works for AKM and worse at styles of aim that work for Repeater. It's ok to be better with worse weapons than the meta ones, but that doesn't change the meta. I'm great at sword and flamethrower but that doesn't mean the Matter and SA-12 are inconsistent

[chilly granite]

I'm a bow wielding eggplant, do you really think I'm listneting to pros who say bow is mid?

[serene glade]

Pros take it in the ass

[chilly granite]

also this really isn't defending your point, 8-10k combat score is firmly mid to bad in cashout

[coarse dragon]

per round? not full match?

[chilly granite]

are you sure you're talking about your per round and not your per match combat score

[coarse dragon]

yes. 21k combat for a match'

[chilly granite]

that's not 8-10k per round

[unkempt moss]

Thats 7k

Got his ass!

[chilly granite]

the difference between 7k times 3 and 10k times 3 is a huge difference

almost a 10k difference, in fact

[coarse dragon]

ad hominem btw, in case anyone knows what that is in here :/

[serene glade]

i hate you ngl

[chilly granite]

@coarse dragon your entire grounding of yyour argument is anecdotes, if we want to use logical fallicies to invalidate one another

I don't attack your logical fallicies, so don't attack mine

also, ad hominim isn't a logical fallacy, if your evidence is anecdotal

[coarse dragon]

My argument cannot rely upon numbers, as it's an experience that is the core of my argument

[chilly granite]

that's called anecdotal evidence, and it is a logical fallacy

[coarse dragon]

"i dont attack ur logical fallacies, so don't attack mine"????

[chilly granite]

ad hominimen is attack against the man; anecdotal evidence means using personal expiereince rather than objective evidence

an attack against the man is not logically invalid - IF THE MANS OPINON IS THE ONLY EVIDENCE

if you are going to use personal experience as your only evidence, you need to back it up with credentials that explain why your experience is valid, and not that of 90% of the player base and all th epros

[coarse dragon]

you are wrong here. Ad hominem is always a falacy. you are attacking the man instead of the point.

[chilly granite]

the point is the mans expereince
I'm attacking the mans experience

I'm not saying you're a furry so you must be wrong

[compact tundra]

To be honest your skill in ranked is irrelevant to your point, you alone don't decide a weapons consistency. It's just factual that 2 headshots on repeater is more consistent to hit than like 8 headshots on AKM. If you're better at tracking aim than flick aim and the AKM works for you then great, but it doesn't change the repeaters dominance in ranked and in the meta

[coarse dragon]

also, i have no following, as i dont like to be in the spotlight. So i cannot give a number to how many people agree with me. I can only ask you to play the game instead of listening to others

[chilly granite]

that would be an ad hominem

[unkempt moss]

Check this ad hom out.

@serene glade You're a dumbass and Ingrid is going to be mid af

[coarse dragon]

i only ever train flicking, and im a lot better in that than tracking. Yet i've noticed better performance on AKM than repeater

[chilly granite]

weapon compatibilty is a significant factor for sure

i have a friend who fucks up pro playres with the cb when we meet themm in our point breaks

he's a 98 percentile flick aimer in kovaaks

I tried getting him to use tracking weapons and he hates them.

he's a 78th percentile tracker in kovaaks

[compact tundra]

Ok that's you then, you play in a way where the AKM is favorable to you, doesn't change the repeaters numbers, dominance, or damage output

[coarse dragon]

correct. Nor i have i ever claim it to. My argument is that the game is very well balanced, to the point where no gun is objectivly superior to the other

[chilly granite]

if oyu only ever train flicking, your scorese will be higher as they represent a higher spread of performances

and are you looking at % acacuracy or percentile in performance @coarse dragon

[alpine sphinx]

i swear i keep getting seeding 1 or 2 in every ranked today, its so annoying

[unkempt moss]

Take it as a compliment

[compact tundra]

But that's not true due to dominate playstyle and strategies. The AKM and repeater may compete well on paper but if you take the meta dominance of stall and repeaters ability to suppress enemies and discourage pushes at range it starts becoming better

[chilly granite]

because 60% accuracy in a trakcing scenario is 3rd place

but 60% accuracy in a flicking scenario is 40th percentile @coarse dragon

realisticlaly, 60% accuracy in most tracking scearios is more like 80th percentile

bad enemies do buff akm

[unkempt moss]

This is kind of crazy

[chilly granite]

@coarse dragon are we talking higher scores in percentile or score? I'm curious

I'm not gonna attack you for being bad, I'm just trying to check you're working with the rigth data; I post my methodologies when I'm calculating numbers so peeople can check my working

[coarse dragon]

What are you talking about? what score?

[chilly granite]

you said aim trainging

[alpine sphinx]

its annoying because it has literally 0 influence on enemy strength, it seems like

[chilly granite]

100% in solo queue, team synergy is a way bigger factor than team net rs

[alpine sphinx]

yeah so the whole system is ass

[chilly granite]

I had a team of heavy/heavy with googun/mesh sledge/flamethrower, there were really nice teammatees and we had first seed, but my playstyle was so anti-synergetic with it that we got 5th ://

[coarse dragon]

yes, i aim train occasionally. But i dont see where it fits in with my argument. I am however booting up my aimlabs (and recovering account, lol) to try and give you the number regardless.

[chilly granite]

I'm just curious if you were interpreting score or accuracy, as your performance, rather than percentile, becasue I'm highly skeptical that you're better with flick than tracking.

A score in a trakcing scenario will always be worse than a score in a flicking scenario for a given percentile on mnk because it's a harder thing to do @coarse dragon

[serene glade]

kyskyskyskyskyskyskys

[chilly granite]

I don't know how much aimlabs normalizes score between flicking and tracking scnarios

[unkempt moss]

We dont worry about enemy strength here. We going in to every match knowing we're better than every other mf

[coarse dragon]

Im 93.9% percentile in Grindshot in Aimlabs, out of 13.362.845 total players on that exercise.

i sent a dm with the screenshot to confirm

[unkempt moss]

Just post it here

[coarse dragon]

can't post images here (edit, never mind)

[alpine sphinx]

that doesnt help when you have to make it to the final round every tournament to make any progress

[coarse dragon]

i feel like we've gone off track of the point though. I do not know if any of you wish to resume the debate?

[unkempt moss]

If you're better than every mf then you just make it to final round.

Do not limit yourself in my presence again

[alpine sphinx]

You're right King, i will now go pick up my hammer and climb to diamond

[unkempt moss]

Good. Obliterate everyone and thing in front of you. These clowns deserve zero mercy.

[alpine sphinx]

YES

[unkempt moss]

They've never seen a hammer like this.

[alpine sphinx]

no but fr tho

[unkempt moss]

Yeah go for it.

[coarse dragon]

I've continued in DM's with @chilly granite, but we can resume in here if need be

[unkempt moss]

Oh okay

[alpine sphinx]

i got 10 kills but we lost unfortunately

[unkempt moss]

At least you buffed your mental. We do not go in to matches expecting to lose.

[alpine sphinx]

Yes

next one seeding 1 again, But we are 3 heavies this time

[unkempt moss]

If we see a ruby team we run at them the entire time.

3H is the best comp.

[compact tundra]

Hammer from a design perspective is so weird to me. It's the only pick weapon on heavy, where and even the SA is a brawl weapon, the spear is an area denial and brawl weapon, the flamethrower is a brawl and area denial weapon, the sledge is the only true pick weapon cause titan isn't really a pick weapon. I guess ks-23 is pretty close to hammer tho. Pick focused and utility boosted

[alpine sphinx]

hammer is the most fun heavy weapon

[compact tundra]

Wrong, flame is king

[alpine sphinx]

i dont like it because it has 0 hit feedback

[compact tundra]

You gotta just feel it bro, it's an instinct weapon, don't think, just let your hands play for you and get them combos going

[alpine sphinx]

but like nothing feels better than smashing a careless light and making them explode when they chased you around a corner

[compact tundra]

That's fair, hitting the big smack on a light is one of the most satisfying feelings in the game. Only reflect sniping on dual blades really compares to popping the rat too slow to hit their dash button

[alpine sphinx]

no, its better when they dash into you, and you predict them

[compact tundra]

But na Flame is peak flow state weapon. Just feel shit and hope it works, it likely will

[compact tundra]

Very fair. Honestly the big hit is just satisfying as shit. I'll jump when I use the big hit cause it makes it feel even bigger, despite that actually nerfing my movement a bit

[unkempt moss]

We're not wrong as long as we're playing heavy.

Hammer or flames, we are still brothers

[alpine sphinx]

another seeding 1 game where we completely lose, ts is random istg

ah i know what the problem is

i havent been wearing my one punch man outfit

[unkempt moss]

Crazy that bow user kept the debate all to himself. Not fair

[chilly granite]

I promise you didn't want to be involved
he has too much skill to actually let logic affect him

I can't kill him in cqb with arn vs arn but in cqb with arn vs xp I can, but the arn isn't stronger than xp

[unkempt moss]

He one of those ruby fellas that cant be wrong because aim good?

[chilly granite]

diamond because he doesn't like meta in ruby, which I do respect

but if you're actively choosing to ignore the meta you can't say that the meta doesn't exist

dying in a 1v1 to a cripple when you're diamond and saying it's not the weapon that's bad it's a skill issue is cringe

does he actually think he has more skill issue than the cripple who's in silver?

"not experienced with the xp, so that's why you're beating me in cqb with the arn, not because the arn is op in cqb"

[unkempt moss]

Just dont play meta and make it to ruby. Ez

[chilly granite]

I have arthirtus and my best kovaaks scores are like, half his lmao

he absolutely shit on me with akm vs cb and cb vs cb and arn vs arn

but the arn is balanced because it's not unplayably bad in diamond
any weapon is viable if you skilldiff people

[unkempt moss]

I just brain diff people tbh

[chilly granite]

and apparently 100fov is mandatory but I sohuldn't follow what pros do because pros are bad

[unkempt moss]

I dont have aim for shit.

[chilly granite]

that's the most terrible take I've ever fucking heard

there are pros on 4:3 stretch and 16:10 stretch

fov is not mandatory

clearly, if a pro can play on 100fov 4:3 stretched, then 83 fov is an acceptable fov for playing the game on

the sr84's optic does not make it better at range than the repeater

people being bgiger on your screen is not making aim easier

the precision demanded is identical

if your sensitivity is too high, then having the sensitivty reduction of focal length zoom scaling, does reduce the precision demand of distance aiming, while keeping mousefeel the same

[unkempt moss]

At least you made a friend though

[chilly granite]

but if you have a low enoguh sensitivity for that not to be relevent, then the precision demand is identical

on the subject of which I'm gonna drop sens again lol

should I go back to my old csgo sense when I was a monster deagle player?

[unkempt moss]

This is why you dont argue with aimbots. They dont actually play the same game

[chilly granite]

1.2@400dpi lol

took me 3 swipes of my big ass mmousepad to do a 360

[unkempt moss]

He heard some names of logical fallacies on r/debate championships and then went to drop some knowledge on you.

[chilly granite]

yeah dude he didn't even realize he was dropping more logical fallacies/ours werent even fallacious beucase his argument was entirely fallacious

[unkempt moss]

Its okay. As soon as he said ad hom in wepsNgadg I knew it was over. The alleycats just ad hom all day at each other in here but still get decent discussion. He came in to change your mind not his so its pointless.

[unkempt moss]

What is this?

[chilly granite]

thats my old cs mouse sensitivity when I was a deagle monster
87cm for a 360 turn

[unkempt moss]

But what program is this.

[chilly granite]

https://www.kovaaks.com/kovaaks/cm360-converter

[dense oasis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMLfRON0ID4
British Gun Man ™ with Finals guns
Ayyy! (hope this embeds lol)(nope I'm still too new, or Embark hates me)

[chilly granite]

man I'm using 60/350 right now in the finals

that's double my old cs sens hahaha

[unkempt moss]

Is this malware?

[chilly granite]

no
it's the british gun man with finals guns

it's a fun video, and I do like john furgeson, keeper of firearms and artillery at the royal armoureies

[unkempt moss]

Looks like malware

[dense oasis]

nah, I'd be more inconspicuous if it was malware.

[unkempt moss]

Thats exactly what someone trying to get me to click malware would say

[chilly granite]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMLfRON0ID4

[dense oasis]

But if you have the new anti-malware developed by our top systems physicists at VAIIYA, then you won't have to worry about it!

[dense oasis]

showing normies the skins garners the same reaction as showing them the gameplay

[unkempt moss]

So you're teaming up to get me to click malware. I will remember this

[chilly granite]

google it if you don't like a risky click

john ferguson finals guns

[dense oasis]

Nah, you don't have to. I got your bank details and I'm uh... disappointed.

[unkempt moss]

Same.

Being poor sucks. But not enough to click that malware

[dense oasis]

Look, I could list you on my Holtow insurance if it's that bad, you know?

[unkempt moss]

Its worse than you could ever imagine

[chilly granite]

but yeha, it's crazy man, the xp should delete arn in cqb, but the arn is honestly better

he's like you're a light main, so you're clearly more experienced and I'm like, I have like 10 games on arn because it feels cheap to me, if the xp isn't winning in cqb in the hands of a vastly better player, there's a damn issue

he was winning way less often with xp vs arn than arn vs arn lmao

@unkempt moss what dpi u play on

[dense oasis]

I'm still trying to figure out what the three autos are supposed to be.
The MAC-11 is for close-up, that's obvious
But is the ARN meant for medium-range and the MP5 for almost-medium? Like what's the goal of their identities

[chilly granite]

the problem is simple; the balance team seems to underestimate the impact of falloff

[unkempt moss]

400 I think

[chilly granite]

so; I define cqb at 0-10m, mid at 10-25, and long as 25+

I think that's a realistic interpretation of common ranges in the game

[chilly granite]

my old csgo sens in the finals is 27 in game sense at 400dpi lmao

go try it bro hahaha

[unkempt moss]

I run it at like .5 or something in the finals

[chilly granite]

idk if my shoulder can withstand this much acceleration now I'm sick though

[unkempt moss]

I'm not sure what the translations is

[chilly granite]

27 is the finals

[unkempt moss]

Okay.

[chilly granite]

the finals only has whole number sensitivity unless you edit a file with a hex editor

which is insane

[unkempt moss]

Then i must run it at 50

[chilly granite]

so half your sens hahaha

that's pretty low though, you take 40cm to spin?

[unkempt moss]

I could see that being workable in cs

[chilly granite]

50 is already crazy low for finals lol

[unkempt moss]

I've always played low sense

[chilly granite]

yeah I used to play at 12 finals sens in csgo, that was the lowest I played, but I didn't have a proper mouse or mousepad back then

so it was basically to try to compensate

it was 400dpi, but my mousepad was a sheet of cardboard and it wouldn't track reliably, so I cranked my sens right down so it didn't do weird shit

I had the most broke bitch setup when I was a kid hahahaha

CRT, sheet of cardboard, trashed cheap desktop speakers

[gritty wolf]

im in orange gg

[chilly granite]

28.5 is common for pros in finals, so I wouldn't worry too mcuh about being around 26cm

it depends how orange we're talking

I think anything under 22 is probably sus

[gritty wolf]

uuuh im trying to remember

[chilly granite]

dpi/sens I can check

[gritty wolf]

1200 dpi 55

[chilly granite]

13.8 hahah

[gritty wolf]

its funny cuz my friend came into my chat yesterday talking about the cm 360 too

[gritty wolf]

aye mayne im lowkey a freak but at least im still able to track

[chilly granite]

high sens tends to be better for tracking

[gritty wolf]

tbf i just started the game 2 days ago so im sure im jus bullying newbies

[chilly granite]

I set my highest kovaaks pbs in trakcing scenarios doing 1600/66

whcih is 8.6cm/360

I don't recommend using that, but I was doing it to improve my fine control

[chilly granite]

it's probably worth dropping sens down a lot to make sure you learn to move your arm fast

it's a lot easier to rely on your wrist for fast movement, but it puts a lot of strain on a relatively fragile part of the body

[gritty wolf]

ya thats my biggest issue is i struggle moving my arm

[chilly granite]

how big is your mousepad?

[gritty wolf]

Large i think

[chilly granite]

i mean, do you know brand/model

[gritty wolf]

not really my friend gave me a few cuz i needed a new one let me check

[stoic garden]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1317185703075119165/1463182749308420241/IMG_20260120_154525_549.jpg?ex=6980b8a0&is=697f6720&hm=13faa58ecc33b635a5a30c135ee8c9cbe969034afba4c397f99d5a6d968bf02b& mine is minuscule according to my friend

[gritty wolf]

lethal gaming gear venus pro is what i got

[chilly granite]

holy cringe

[stoic garden]

what

[chilly granite]

that's not even bigger than your hand

[gritty wolf]

that shit small

but i know someone who uses a office mousepad

[chilly granite]

if you wanna get your arm moving fast, play on 400/40

that's like, a swipe and half to 360 on your mousepad

which will force you to get a lot better at positioning too

good luck if a melee gets on your ass hahahahaa

[stoic garden]

i have probably average sens

[chilly granite]

hit us with it bro

[stoic garden]

I'm hundreds of kilometers away from my homeland rn

[gritty wolf]

aye in apex i played on 1,200 dpi 1.5 sens

[stoic garden]

that was an old pic

[gritty wolf]

but im a roller player on that

im honestly curious on howd i play on a diff mouse i got a chonky heavy boi mouse

[stoic garden]

iirc i play on 1000 dpi with 5 sens on my windows mouse settings

[chilly granite]

oh you gotta fix that, a heavy mouse sucks

but it's great for building arm strength for low sens flicks though

go 400/40 and you'll be a monster flick machine when you get a lightweight mouse

[gritty wolf]

but the g502 sigma mouse ☹️

[chilly granite]

there's a bug that breaks it sometimes, but usually finals ignores windows settings

[stoic garden]

100 sens on mouse finals settings with 100% ads mouse speed, i do have focal lenght scaling on tho (slows down sens the more you zoom)

[stoic garden]

well i use my mouse's specialized program to set it so idk, it uses a similar format to windows's tho

i dont really think sharing sens really matters, do what's most comfortable for your setup while retaining accuracy and not being clunky

mine is the most i can go before my aim at range dies

[chilly granite]

g502 isn't too heavy, it's fat but it's not overweight, my old mouse was 160 grams

[stoic garden]

my phone is 250 grams so whatever mouse is fine for me ngl

[chilly granite]

I used that shit with 0.6 /400 dpi in cs go

my right arm was huge and it wasn't for sus reasons

[gritty wolf]

i could make it lighter cuz i have all the weights in it tbh

[stoic garden]

next phone I'm getting is 400 grams 🤑 🤑 🤑 🤑

[chilly granite]

bro get those gone

[gritty wolf]

thats 10 grams gone

[chilly granite]

but yeah, if you wanna build fast arm movement, just use a way too low sensitivity

if you can 180 in a single swipe, it's too high

practice your mouse lift game

[stoic garden]

I'd love to but my mousepad is probably not larger than half a meter 🤕

[gritty wolf]

let me check rq

[chilly granite]

bro ur pad is about 12cm

[gritty wolf]

brooo when do i get embed perms grr

[chilly granite]

you'll get it soon enough chatting no stress

if you do -l in the level check channel it'll show you, but I'm sure youre almsot there

[stoic garden]

he needs red role

[chilly granite]

-levels

[raven finch]

Our leveling system

"Why can't I do some things in the server?"

• You may need to level up first!

How to level up? Just look around and join conversations. Lots to talk about!

Lvl 0: Newbie 0xp
• join VC • make bug reports • chat in most channels
Lvl 1: <@&1011197091470647317> 35xp
• create new VC • reactions • external emoji • images in drip check, pet channel
Lvl 3: <@&1011197119199191071> 115xp
• images in most channels • embeds in main chat
Lvl 8: <@&1133322765194235904> 1015xp
• embeds and images everywhere
Lvl 15: <@&1012661788401217579> 3955xp
• external stickers • VC streaming • bragging rights!

Role descriptions: #👋┇welcome
Check your rank: #🏆┇rank-check

[stoic garden]

1k messages

[chilly granite]

oof

that only took me like 1 day

[stoic garden]

you are a VERY special case

[chilly granite]

to be fair it was a very long day because I was sick so I couldn't sleep

and I get even more rambly when Im sleepy

[gritty wolf]

i do 3 360s in one mousepad swipe

level 8

[chilly granite]

@gritty wolf that's how you know it's way too highahhahaha

you should probably drop desktop dpi so it' doesnt feel so slow in the game relatively

[gritty wolf]

i change my dpi through my logitech app

[bright hill]

When will Thermal Vision get fixed? Next szn or have they said?

[chilly granite]

400 dpi is probably a good start, cuz that would put you at 1 360 with current sense, and the ratio of desktop -> game would feel the same

[muted condor]

They are going to lobotomies it and turn it into another completely worthless gadget you’ll never see like 90% of items in the game

[analog pewter]

god i just need a good ranked 3 stack

[chilly granite]

@gritty wolf lmk how 400dpi feels btw, it'll take a while to adjust and you will suck for a second,if you do some aim labs the adjustment will be way faster though which is ncie

[compact tundra]

You MnK players are weird bro. I just move the funny stick and shoot

[sudden pewter]

It’s not being “fixed” it’s being reworked. It will return as a functionally different gadget. We currently have no official ETA.

[unkempt moss]

Honestly even a duo would be enough.

[alpine sphinx]

Bro realtalk, my friends are in Bronze 2 and 3

[analog pewter]

nah nahhhh i cant take random fills, the lack of coordination is getting me completely fucked

[gleaming aspen]

controller players are weird i just press buttons to move and shoot

[analog pewter]

3 stack or no ranked

[unkempt moss]

The way googs and I started playing was that everything was a 2v3. Change your approach to that and you will climb. Its exceedingly rare, even at the top, to find a solo that wants to work as a team. So just play like they aren't there.

[unkempt moss]

Whats your rank?

Are they just the type that dont want to learn or what?

[chilly granite]

not to mention, if you're playing to win 2v3, then any contribution of the fill will make it an easy win

[unkempt moss]

Exactly. Bow-kun gets it.

[alpine sphinx]

wi went from gold 2 to gold 4 today

[unkempt moss]

From your view what are they struggling with.

[chilly granite]

if the'yre bronze, everythin

they should probably do a few days of tdm to get to grips with gunplay

[alpine sphinx]

well one of them is kinda okay, he is not very flexible tho and basically only plays hammer (which is based)

[alpine sphinx]

bro you dont know my one friend

[unkempt moss]

What about the other.

[alpine sphinx]

the problems are siginificantly worse than that

[alpine sphinx]

i'll let this speak for itself

[unkempt moss]

I love video evidence.

I will say, because I play googun, I have done this before on medium heal gun. I doubt that this is the problem for him but it looks like he tunnel visions super hard.

[chilly granite]

24h of tdm will help a lot with that

[indigo nexus]

the scoreboard flickering seems very excessive

[alpine sphinx]

sorry haha, i do that when i spectate sometimes

[unkempt moss]

The zombie run on defibs is funny. He was almost low enough that the defib would have killed him.

[alpine sphinx]

nono you dont understand, this man has 150 hours in this game

[unkempt moss]

That just means hes been reinforcing bad habits for 150. But he would have to want to get better to learn. Does he want to?

[alpine sphinx]

no, he never plays anything else aside from cl, zip line, gas mines and defi

[unkempt moss]

You should make him get off defib for a bit and see what he does.

[chilly granite]

how much is in tdm? tdm is a mcuh faster pace and puts more pressure on player control

[unkempt moss]

Make him play demat and no defib to force him to think without using them.

[alpine sphinx]

he wont

[unkempt moss]

I can almost guarantee it'll fix a lot of his problems.

[alpine sphinx]

he will not do that, he is hopeless

[chilly granite]

it might be worth "encouraging" him to try diff clases and gadgets until he finds some he enjoys using

putting the focus on creative and fun gadget useage rather than clikcing faces

is he mnk or controler?

[alpine sphinx]

mnk

[unkempt moss]

Tell him that heavy is based and for absolute studs.

[alpine sphinx]

he plays flamethrower on extremely rare occasions

[unkempt moss]

You just gotta encourage him to get on flame then.

[chilly granite]

if he's on mnk he needs a gadget focus to help him with thinking about how he's moving around and using his gear more slow paced

he's tryna act faster than his brain right now

[unkempt moss]

Tell him flamethrower C&S.

Flame is a stud weapon

[alpine sphinx]

yeah but like he refuses to engage with gameplay mechanics

[compact tundra]

Bro I got a friend just like that, and what's worse is he doesn't know he's bad, he keeps talking about how good he's getting and still does this shit on the regular. Bro has no awareness whatsoever and the processing time to rival an early 1900's computer

[chilly granite]

hahhahaha
that's a great line

[flat igloo]

a CS 2 based crohair system whold go hard (follogin the hipfire recol behavior)

[chilly granite]

is hipfire recoil significant enough for that to matter? once you account for recoil smoothing in cqb combat?

[compact tundra]

I mean if it's something that could be accomplished by adding more options to the cross hair customization system then I see no problem with it, if it's fundamental change cross hairs then I'd have to give it a hard no

[chilly granite]

i mean xhair cusomtsiaton in finals is ass

[compact tundra]

Is it? I think it's pretty good with nice options for different styles of cross hairs. Like I use a circular crosshair that shows me center shot and the hip spread of whatever gun I'm using

[chilly granite]

there's a lot of games with worse, but there's also games with much better, to be fair

[muted condor]

Imagine not using base crosshairs

[compact tundra]

Imagine not being able to see your spread

[chilly granite]

I don't like that I can't do decimals and partial numbers, and odd numbers being semitranspartant rather than odd numbers is a bad choice

[muted condor]

The default does

[compact tundra]

It comes with the circle? I thought it was a + crosshair

[muted condor]

It’s a stationary + with another set that move outside it

[compact tundra]

Yea but that's like hard to read, I wanna circle to tell me the spread, not have to know what pellets hit where on the graph

[muted condor]

Bah, just throw that shit center mass who cares about spread patterns

[compact tundra]

Also baller Cerb clip

[muted condor]

Closest match of gotten to all S and it’s on the cerb for some reason

[alpine sphinx]

i like mine

[compact tundra]

Na bro you gotta see the whole picture, also helps a lot with hipfire spread on like the m11 and shit. Tells you very clearly when you're getting the movement and Juno penalty

[muted condor]

There is something about he cerb heal gun build that gets you S ranks

[compact tundra]

Bros got radar on his screen, clear cheating

[noble saddle]

Tonight Imma be playing around with a Charge, SA12, Dome, Anti Grav, RPG loadout

This loadout seems like it kinda brings the DVA playstyle to the finals

[alpine sphinx]

sry forgot the other 2 pictures

[alpine sphinx]

🤫

[compact tundra]

I don't know why the Cerb is secretly goated, got my only all S game on Cerb

[noble saddle]

They should add a heavy specialty that if you die you turn into a light with no abilities or gadgets using V9S

[muted condor]

I’m also used to what I call ✨Vibe aiming✨ so I don’t even look at my crosshairs when I play

[alpine sphinx]

and an animation of the light crawling out of the heavies flesh pls

[compact tundra]

Sorry, Gotta flex real quick here now

[muted condor]

I could probably change it to a single dot and play the same as I do now

[alpine sphinx]

once you have a feel for the spread of a weapon, thats all you really need tbh

[noble saddle]

Lol

Honestly would be cool if they added some cosmetics in the store that make the heavy look like Mecha armor for a light build contestant

They kinda have it with the Gundam armor but customization is pretty limited there

[muted condor]

You all wish you had my aiming skills fr

This is peak performance and weapon design even you you don’t like it

[alpine sphinx]

Dual Blades Dough Kneaders skin moment

[muted condor]

Peak

[muted condor]

Even more proof the devs don’t play their game

[alpine sphinx]

it was removed tho

but yeah lmao

[compact tundra]

? I have that skin? Did they fix the funny throw skin?

[alpine sphinx]

oh? then it was only removed from the shop i guess

[compact tundra]

I think it was limited time for Christmas, but could be wrong, either way I own the funny

[alpine sphinx]

bro the video compression makes it almost invisible

[compact tundra]

Bruh, one sec

[alpine sphinx]

at least in bright spaces

[compact tundra]

Also this is my crosshair, this is like one of the few recent clips I have of me on an automatic

Btw, cheater or na, I got this clip the other night and still can't tell if he was just careful and lucky, or wall hacks?

Probably just assumed my posting due to game awareness and the short time span

[cerulean furnace]

He looked around and saw ur outline before going blind into the cash out room. Seems perfectly reasonable

[chilly granite]

that looks real sussy lol

my gamesense isnt good but if his movement and aim are that bad, I'm betting his gamesense is worsethan mine

[tidal urchin]

flame thrower needs toned down a bit shit is dumb

[chilly granite]

@tidal urchin so what do you dislike about fighting flamethrower?

[compact tundra]

It ain't that good unless you're light, and if your light dash outta there, you should be able to keep distance and gun them down unless they winch you

[chilly granite]

unjust I need to do testing on if a light can survive dashing out of range of flamethrower formpoint banlk btw

with a single dash, since Im not sure if it's actually possible

the full range of a single dash is the same as the max range of flamethrower, and depending on the ttk, it might be impossbile to survive with a single dash

[compact tundra]

That's fair, lights are hard melted by flame and their main saving grace against my hell fire is that cursed dash

[chilly granite]

double dash for sure works

[tidal urchin]

that i can put 80 percent of my clip into the dudes chest and he just walks into me even when I do get the kill I still die. For ranked cashout its absurd.

[compact tundra]

Why are you 1v1'ing a flame heavy close distance in ranked?

[tidal urchin]

you trolling? you cant be serious

[compact tundra]

That's the scenario you presented

[chilly granite]

so heavies' sprint speed is faster than the speed of a light ADSing backwards

however, if he's closing gap, he must run in a straight line, so you can hit easy headshots, which should always kill him before he can gap close if you start further than 2m outside of flamethrower range (10m)

even at 9m start distance, you shoudl still win the duel if you hit your shots, althoguh you will be low hp

flamethrower if anything is actually too weak right now, but it is alos annyoing to play against on light

[chilly granite]

I assume you're using m11?

light right now is not a manfight class; light is a lil bitch class who's mean to shoot the enemy in the ass

flame thrower is honestly one of the most winnable matchups for a light right now

if you're beating enemies in fair fights on higher classes, it's likely you're signfiicantly more skilled in aim than them

[muted condor]

I’m going to save you the time of trying to reason with this Atlanta guy. He still wanted the cl40 nerfed more after the last nerf

He got some dreadful takes

[chilly granite]

I'm of the opinion that the cl40 1) doesn't reward skill enough 2) punishes weak players significantly mmore than good players

and I think those two things should be fixed my making it like demo man gl

[compact tundra]

Eh kinda, i see kinda 2 main play styles on light when it comes to fighting.

Long range shred

And mid ranged stall

The ARN and V9s are mainly used for long ranged engagements to weaken enemies and charge in if they get taken low enough

And the 93r and Matter are used for being a dirty rat that holds teams up for as long as possible so your team can setup and you stall out the timer

[chilly granite]

I mean I feel like both of those qualify as "not manfighting"

[chilly granite]

that's probably a better description of how you're actaully meant to play it, than mine

[compact tundra]

Oh they aren't brawling for sure, but it's not jumping, lights don't really jump as much as they pester for as long as possible

[chilly granite]

my right ear is glitched or some shit

i got white noise in it

[compact tundra]

Damn bro caught tinnitus

[chilly granite]

lmao I'm pretty sure my game wasn't that loud

[compact tundra]

Too much time blasting metal to impress all the alt femboys I assume you pull

[serene glade]

I wish I had the flamethrower that these dumb fucks complain about. Sounds so fun to have a weird weapon be good

[unkempt moss]

I do have that flamethrower. I know some of these complaints in here are because of me.

[compact tundra]

Bro if only, but no, were stuck with a mod tier weapon and a bunch of lights who think they should be able to 1v1 a flame heavy in cpc

[serene glade]

I feel like lights can trade with the flamethrower by standing still in front of it ngl

[chilly granite]

I stand by my opinon that flamaethrower needs to be faster ttk and shorter range

[indigo nexus]

if they were very precise I think they can with some weapons, but that's not that realistic

[chilly granite]

7.5m is crazy long range

[unkempt moss]

You could nerf flamethrower in to a water gun and lights would find a way to drown in it.

[stoic garden]

my reaction to this information

[compact tundra]

But see any lights that's gonna hit those shots won't be pissing and moaning in here about flamethrower

[indigo nexus]

why make it more like a melee?

[chilly granite]

bro there's a lot of room between melee and 7.5m

[indigo nexus]

a few meters

[muted condor]

This guy literally just shows up and complains about literally anything that kills them and isn’t their main weapon it’s kinda funny

[chilly granite]

infact there's at least 3.5m if we talking spear and 5.5m if we talking sledge

[chilly granite]

are you talking about me?

[unkempt moss]

Spear has less range than gammer?

[compact tundra]

Na bro that's melees job, flamethrowers range is good and honestly the ttk against everyone but heavy is good rn. If they made the flame particles do a smidge more damage and left after burn and range the same it'd be goated

[unkempt moss]

Flamethrower just needs the antiheal buff and its perfectly balanced.

[compact tundra]

No he's talking about Atlanta

[serene glade]

Cl40 punishes you for picking it at character select screen

[compact tundra]

Oh god I'd take that over anything else in a heart beat

[stoic garden]

cl40 punishes you for using it as an aoe weapon

[chilly granite]

let me put it differently; I think the flamethrower needs a dps buff. But I don't think you can buff flamethrower without baddies rioting, and I think shortening the range would help weaker players wihtout making the flamethrower bad. If a player say "flamethrower range to 6.5" and "flamethrower dps buff 10% " in the same patch, they're gonna be way more chill aobut it

[indigo nexus]

due to melee lunge and with how flamethrower slows you down significantly, I think the practical difference is lower. And feels lower, when with flamethrower you're almost always getting into melee range anyway, 'cause otherwise they could outrun you.

[unkempt moss]

Buff fire to cauterize and you never need to touch flame and cerb again pretty much.

[chilly granite]

dps buff significantly helps this problem, and that's part of the reason why I think a dps buff is that it needs - so that it can be more different from melee

[compact tundra]

Scotty him self could offer me 2 pills

• life time supply of ospuze, a massive milker goth gf, and we remove sword clamp

• fire now blocks heals

And I'd be genuinely stuck

[indigo nexus]

I'm fine with that if the range was kept the same, but how'd it make it more different to melee? Melee kills faster than the flamethrower right now

[unkempt moss]

I take the antiheal 8 days a week

[stoic garden]

can u imagine part of the fire damage makes part of your hp unhealable until natural regen kicks in

[chilly granite]

i'd be down for two cl40s, one with nerfed dps but much better aoe/much less dodgable damage, and one with tf2 behaviour

[unkempt moss]

Even if you set it so you just cant heal while the dot is on you it would be a massive buff.

[chilly granite]

I'm talking 6.5 or 7 meters, not gutting it, and with an appropriately sized dps buff (or rather, tick damage buff) allowing better swapping to mesh shield, gap closing, I think it's a lot more interesting in relation to melee than right now

[indigo nexus]

I don't think this answers my question

[compact tundra]

And it would shoot Cerb and Thrower into the meta without actually making them stronger. They'd be really cool utility picks

[indigo nexus]

furthermore, I don't think flamethrower needs to be pushed in a direction that makes it easier to use in, like, silver lobbies

[chilly granite]

range is easier to use in silver lobbies, not dps, that's why I think dps is better, becuase it makes it more effective in higher lobbies

[unkempt moss]

And its power would just scale off of how strong heal is at any given moment. Buff to pyro mine/nade as well.

[serene glade]

Who's gonna tell this guy there's only 7 days in a week

[unkempt moss]

Pyro nade would actually be decent.

[unkempt moss]

Im not really a nunbers guy

[serene glade]

Wtf is a number

[chilly granite]

@indigo nexus you gotta realize, that basically nobody is beating flamethrower ttk in silver lobbies , evne now, and even when flamethrowers are runnign up holding m1, not even sprinting

making flamethrower need better positioning to apply that damage, makes it more skillfull and less punishing in silver lobbies

[unkempt moss]

2

[serene glade]

Ah ty

[indigo nexus]

when the aim requirement is low I don't think I agree on that account either. It'd help in higher lobbies, no doubt about it, but the ease-of-aim is why a lot of poorer players think that it has a high damage output.

[chilly granite]

I'm not sure what oyu mean, there's an aim requirement for the killer, not the flamethrower

[compact tundra]

Bro you guys keep talking down these silver lobbies but I don't see it no how

I'm silver rn, only played like 10 ranked games so far this season, and my last match had a V9 light and an ARN light spread out across different roofs on fortune stadium, wait for us to approach the vault, then one would poke us to keep us stuck which across the map headshots while the other and there minigun heavy moved in for the direct fight. It was the sweatiest game I've ever played

[chilly granite]

unjust, it's aim asssit

I turned off crossplay and my silver lobbies are worse than I'm describing they're crazy easy

[compact tundra]

BRO IT IS NOT, I CANNOT DO THAT SHIT MAN, THATS SOME VOODOO MAGIC

[indigo nexus]

If they were in a 1v1 in a box then maybe, but it's never sensible to draw such extreme comparisons as that

[chilly granite]

they are

cashouts are generally located in small rooms and people aren't thnking things through enough to not push the small room with a flmaethrower

[unkempt moss]

@serene glade I didnt realize that Jameis is number 5.

[muted condor]

No the Atlanta guy

[chilly granite]

sry, u replied my comment so I was confused lol

[unkempt moss]

5 is half of 35, and 35 is my lucky number.

[indigo nexus]

the flamethrower does not always have its ideal situation. game is not neat enough for that.

[serene glade]

Too bad he's number 19 rn

[unkempt moss]

Fug

[chilly granite]

the problem for new players is that they aren't expereinced enoguh to force the non-ideal situation, and in it's ideal situation, especially against weak players, it is excessively effective

[indigo nexus]

and nor are the flamethrower users against them experienced enough to force the ideal situation.

[muted condor]

All g. I just don’t want a beautiful man such as yourself wasting precious energy on such #👂┇game-feedback troglodytes

[unkempt moss]

Excessively is probably a bit of an overstatement

[indigo nexus]

well... they're where they are for a reason, regardless of how sweaty a match is

[compact tundra]

Bro I promise they are not silver, i would be shocked if they are lower than high plat

[chilly granite]

here's the thing: people end up in the same rank because average performance is equal. A flamethrower is very punishable so it will be gated out of high silver/low gold lobbies by the players who are there, who know how to play against it and can punish it easily

but every single flamethrower user, even in bronze, understands "sit in small room with cashout"

[unkempt moss]

They could be like when I'm down in silver from learning other weapons.

[compact tundra]

But like that would mean they dropped down to silver and then ran their mains again

[unkempt moss]

That could definitely be the case

[indigo nexus]

...high silver / low gold? I think your view of the meta puts it as a lot stricter than mine...

There's no hard gate on these things, you'll end up among those who you do as well as, and there isn't a sudden point where it flips on its head. It's a gradual progression and I am pretty confident that a fair zone must exist regardless of what weapon you are using and your skill level, save for the absolute extreme ends.

[chilly granite]

a bad flamethrower user, sorry that was unclear

a skilled flmaethwer cna get to ruby probably

[indigo nexus]

I will stand by the second part of my message

[chilly granite]

There's no hard gate on these things, you'll end up among those who you do as well as, and there isn't a sudden point where it flips on its head. It's a gradual progression and I am pretty confident that a fair zone must exist regardless of what weapon you are using and your skill level, save for the absolute extreme ends.

the enemies who understand how to counter flamethrower aren't gonna be complaining about it

[unkempt moss]

You can sit. Get comfortable.

[indigo nexus]

so?

[chilly granite]

it being a fair zone doesn't mean that it feels fair for the weak players who don't understand how to counter it
fair zone on average*

[compact tundra]

Bruh idky but that shit had me laughing

That such a fucking stupid joke

[unkempt moss]

Thats why it hit.

[indigo nexus]

if you were better at using it than they were at countering it, then you wouldn't be in the same skill bracket as them anyway.

[chilly granite]

the skillgap on the flamethrower isn't the gun, it's the gadgets and spec

[unkempt moss]

Also debating with bow-kun means you'll be here a while. Need to get comfortable.

[chilly granite]

oh, so this si actualyl a good point

SO, this is why I think it's ttk shouldl be more competative

because right now, it's pretty easy for a flamethrower to sit ina room and die to the enemy getting some extra chip damage, even when they played the flamethrower "properly"

[unkempt moss]

Flame is one of those weapons that needs to be weak or it'll be obnoxious af

[chilly granite]

like, the maths on the flame thrower mean that it can't win even in an equal fight

so it's very easy for a flamethrower who is playing the weapon correctly, to win or losee matches based on the randomness of the enemies aim and if there happen to be a red barrel nearby

this leads to the flamethrower feeling op if there's no red barrel nearby

or feeling crap to the flamethrower user, if there is a red barrel nearby

in my games, if people see a red barrel nearby they tend to just grab it and yeet it, whcih is why it's my example

the flamethrower needs to be more rewarding for proper positioning and useage of the weapon, more like the minigun

considering it has worse range than the minigun by far (chart plz), it's dps being so far behind is pretty unreasonable imho

melee also needs a buff but that's a whole other can of worms

also, the range not being displayed in game, and the counter not being obvious, and the relative range of the flamethrower to many cqb areas in maps, all lead to it feeling uncounterable and op to weaker players

this would be mitigated a lot by my suggested "anti-melee tutorial" but that's a seperate conversation

lockbolt compounds this becasue it's counterplay isn't obvious, and new players can struggle to hit it, and it will give adequate time for a heavy to run them down

ngl I often forget to shoot lockbolt lol

a good flamethrower player would learn to hide/move the redbarrels, but that's asking a lot of a casual player
and good enemies will just use gadgets

[compact tundra]

Shooting the lockbolt is for weak babies, I square up with the fat bastard like a real alpha would

[chilly granite]

I wish I could but the bow does not have the dps

I normally try to and it ends with a squashed bow user

[indigo nexus]

minigun gets around the issue by having a mechanic critical to its success which can't really operate on dumb luck, so I think something to this end would need to be introduced here to make genuine progress in the same way. The reason I'm not a fan of making it genuinely very strong very close up is because I think it will be too accidental when this is employed well in easier lobbies, and make it even more counterable by better players, and it is not clear that any advantage would outweigh this.

[compact tundra]

Think bigger, every weapon has the dps should you be strong enough

[chilly granite]

fair take

I'm of the opinon that range nerf dps buff would make it stronger in hgiher lobbies where positioning is better all around, but heavy's gadgets enable gap close

in low level lobbies, gadget use is hit or miss, so it's more about random positioning? and in random positioning, more radius is way better

the reason I said high silver/low gold is becuase that is the rank where people start to hit me on grapple, and therefore whre I think they can outdps the flamethrower

mid gold playing grapple is pretty hard cuz people are way more consistent at hitting the grapple so I need to actually not grapple like a moron in the open

[stoic garden]

higher lobbies will use sa12 bro.

[indigo nexus]

here's a crazy idea:

being on fire prevents you from aiming down sights.

crazy. but maybe... it could work... maybe

[chilly granite]

I don't think that helps weak lobbies but it would help flamethrower in high lobbies

[indigo nexus]

now having great aim doesn't allow you to headshot beam a flame heavy in the same way

[stoic garden]

stun gun ahh idea

[chilly granite]

nah

[indigo nexus]

however, the idea is too crazy, as cerberus would become... awkward

[chilly granite]

most waepons can hit a heavy for flamethrower dps at flamethrower range

oh yeah cerb would be a big problmem lmaoo

maybe fire should make your charcter do a stop drop roll

[stoic garden]

imo flamethrower should stay casual as it is, at most make fire inhibit healing but otherwise no

[indigo nexus]

it's an idea for improvement, not an ideal world!

[chilly granite]

fire inhib healing already would help flamethroweer find relevent in high level games

[indigo nexus]

I would be okay with that.

[chilly granite]

I still think falmethrower needs "something", but idk what that is

fire healing inhib is a net win for every single aspect of the game

but fire dot needs to last longer for same total damage

there arne't enough incentives to try to counter fire, and fire as a fire isn't very strong

you can mostly ignore it, even with anti heal, just because the dps is mid and the radius is tiny

and the dot damage only lasts 2s, whcih at leeat for light, is usually an inconsequential delay to auto heal, but annyoing amount of damage

I think the afterburn damage ticks for too much damage on light, but basically every source of chip is too strong against light

oh yay I was in fire for 0.2s, now i'm low enogh to get oneshot by repeater or bfr!

[hardy dust]

Hell no 😭

[chilly granite]

bruh I accdientally queued with crossplay on, I didn't realize until a guy had really sus aim lol

controller player

@compact tundra tbh I think the aim assist is worst at helping people who actually need it, and best at helping those who don't, and it looks way too mcuh like an aimbot, which I think leads to people blaming cheaters when it's just the aim assist

[unkempt moss]

They should buff heavy so when there's a medium or light within 10m they start begging for their life and you can use the voice lines to hunt them down.

[chilly granite]

like Im really bad at controller, so I can't get the aim assist to trigger for me consistently at all, but when it does, it feels super aimbotty, and I see good controller players, doing what appears to be aiming in ways to specifically enchance the aim asssit

first place +1100 rs niceeee

[chilly granite]

what the hell
is losing -134
for 5/6 when I'm 8th seed

[indigo nexus]

That just means the differences weren’t too high.

It’s possible to be 8th seed and lose a lot more than that, the seed thing is only vaguely relevant

[unkempt moss]

How would you fix the ranked mode sausage?

[chilly granite]

the smallest possible change it needs is two rounds insstead of 3

[unkempt moss]

No, we're keeping cashout.

[chilly granite]

no, I mean 1 round cashout 1 round final round

or two rounds of cashout and no final round

[unkempt moss]

two qualifiers and one h2h, like our forefathers

[muted condor]

Bro wants to remove reaching the finals from The Finals

[unkempt moss]

I miss when it was 3 qualifiers

[chilly granite]

playerbase problem

[muted condor]

I’d say their ranked match design is one of the few things that is still solid

I would like to have events in ranked but whiny sweats wouldn’t stand for fun being in the game

[humble sparrow]

Whats the fastest way to level up guns?

[chilly granite]

I stand by events in ranked

[stoic garden]

fr? i thought it was kinda too long

i also theorize they might've shortened it to two qualifiers so that geforce now free players could do all matches 100% of the time

[chilly granite]

wait guys I hit a clip

anyway what they should actually change is make tdm 1 round

3 round tdm is kinda dumb

But yeah, I like cash out a lot but too many quals makes people feel like they're losing a lot

I feel like even 1 round cash out no finals is better

Cause second in quals feels like losing and then second in finals rubs it in

And that's not to mention people who don't even make it to the finals

Tdm has no need to be anything but a single round, it should be a casual mode for casual players which is really brief and drop on drop out kinda thing

Tdm being 3 rounds means it's 10-15min which represents a fairly large time commitment

tasty

grav vortex is fun, but I am ass at using it

don't bully my movement too hard, my left hand is hurting quite a lot rn

we lost unfortunately, I pulled the cashout off the moving thingys into a really exposed location but they goo walled off and it became a shitshow

but it was fun and we made it to the finals 😉

go look my clips and booly me

@unkempt moss please tell me how to use utility like intelleginet persona

im gonna quit because 1 that game got me gold and 2 i want to wake up early to ping embark until we get answers

and i'm feelin sik too

Also my flicks are a lil sus cuz I changed my sensitivity again today hahah

33/400, it's hurting my hand less so I'm feeling good

[muted condor]

Bro missed his grapple

We’re in cardboard 4 😭
It’s over

(Nice shots btw)

[chilly granite]

Think about it alternatively; if I left that in, you know I'm not cherry picking too hard hahahhaa

The number of mediums I see miss their defibs man...

[muted condor]

FUCK DEFIBS

[chilly granite]

That said, I always miss my defibs but I don't play medium hahahahha

[muted condor]

Have I ever told you how much I hate defibs?

[chilly granite]

Yes don't worry, I stand by you

[muted condor]

I know it’s probably hard to tell but I might dislike them

https://tenor.com/view/rage-gif-24341837

[unkempt moss]

When you're waiting for vault to pop you need to be more proactive than standing there waiting for it. Especially with grapple. You should be up on a building doing recon.

Youre not getting any value out of your kit or yourself staring at the vault like that. If you guys got flanked right there you would never see it coming.

[chilly granite]

I need a new GPU cuz I'm scared to sit on roofs cuz I never spot enemies first cuz I'm potota graphics

[unkempt moss]

The third clip seems fine, you just deleted that team. I think grav Vortex isnt going to get any value, its pretty bad.

[chilly granite]

So I just get shot first hahaha

The videos are basically 1:1 wit what I see except the long one

[unkempt moss]

Playing in the building is fine too. The only thing thats not fine is standing there in the open waiting for the vault.

[chilly granite]

Ok, I'll try both and see how it goes

My fear of roofsititng may be partially that I need to practice spotting, rather than it being impossible with my settings

[unkempt moss]

When youre playing and you have down time you should be asking yourself "what can I do to maximize my value" or "what position can I take to up my chances of winning this next push"

[chilly granite]

Yeah I have the problem of my ADHD brain going afk when there's downtime

I often just chat with you guys when I'm meant to be playing lmao

Literally sitting afk on a cashout waiting for the enemy team to arrive hahha

Did I play the doubled cashout decently?

[unkempt moss]

Fastest way you'll climb is activating your mind to maximize your chances. That'll win you fights up until plat basically.

[chilly granite]

I tend to be good at thinking about options once I'm in fight mode, but I struggle to stay in fight mode if you get me

Like, once I doubled the cashout I'm clearly thinking about ways to improve the defensibility and stay alive

Cuz I know we gonna have 3 team on us, I was quite focused. I didnt do a great job at anything there, but I was thinking about what I could do and where I should be

[unkempt moss]

Your breach charge above isnt great. Get it on the floor and knock the cashout on top of it as a basic drop play. Running around with your breach remote out is a bad habit.

[chilly granite]

It's vortex not breach

[unkempt moss]

Either way, running with the remote out isnt great. Just wait until you need it to pull it out.

[chilly granite]

Normally I keep flashes or null out, but when I use vortex or breach I tend to accidentally die from being out of position because I wasn't paying attention; so I have the remote out so I can pop vortex before I die lol

Which is a bad habit to fix a bad habit

[unkempt moss]

Doubling there is basically your win condition. The problem with your positioning there is not great because orange seems to be able to run up on your building and they haven't taken a single arrow. A lot of time spent with your cross hair on the wall waiting.

[chilly granite]

I mean, part of it is because the audio seems really inconsistent and bad? I normmally just listen for approach but it doesn't work in finals

[unkempt moss]

You have both cashouts so you know where the entire lobby will be in about 15 seconds. You want to stall teams on the cross to hopefully cause them to run in to each other. Hit shots and ping.

[chilly granite]

Yeah, that comes back to being bad at spotting, I try not to take the long range fights that are meta because I struggle to see people, so instead I'm playing to effectively third party stall

[unkempt moss]

Play your life. Youre good with the bow so your primary will get infinitely more value than the grav.

[chilly granite]

I think cuz I struggle to finish kills off because people tend to find cover very quickly against bow, I feel like I'm not getting value, when forcing them to cover is value because it's delaying their arrival

Like in the grand major the CB people just shoot each other for 30mins

[unkempt moss]

They might not be dying but they are basically out of the fight. Sonar I really think would help you.

[chilly granite]

Nothing actually happens

I mean the CB poke fights

[unkempt moss]

Because when they get behind cover you can play your game safer.

[chilly granite]

Sonar is excellent with the bow, , prefire is glorious, and it might help me spotting

I don't think you can see it in the footage but I actually use flash to spot enemies

I chuck one each direction and see which pops so I can "spot" them without having to rely on my eyes

I was running frag instead of grav vortex but I was watching uni twitch and he was playing vortex and it looked really fun, I kinda enjoy vortex but I do struggle with getting value

[unkempt moss]

Sonar is going to be far more consistent for you in these situation. And consistency climbs ranks.

You can keep flash, Id drop grav for them.

[chilly granite]

Ye for sure

Null/flash is my mandatory, I'm not negotiating those two hahaha

[unkempt moss]

Nullifier is very strong so I wont tell you to drop that.

[chilly granite]

Frag is nice when I need to 1v3 because it really helps the bow because bow doesn't have enough DPS in a lot of situations

But I shouldn't be playing to be 1v3 Def cashbox anyway

So sonar is better for playing for advantage earlier

[unkempt moss]

If you like frag I'd say Frag, Sonar, Nullifier. But I know you want flash.

[chilly granite]

I think null flash sonar sounds great, I'll give it a try tomorrow

[unkempt moss]

Sounds good.

[chilly granite]

And I'll try to practice spotting at range. Snow Kyoto is the worst possible map for it hahhaha

[unkempt moss]

Just spam ping if you think you see movement.

[chilly granite]

Oh yeah I never think to do that

Alright thanks for the advice gooking, I'm gonna sleep

Have a nice evening everyone

[unkempt moss]

Take it easy.

[near citrus]

is xp still king?

[near citrus]

yo?

[unkempt moss]

No. I am.

[hardy dust]

No

Not since it got the damage nerf, now its on the lower end of light weapons

[unkempt moss]

See, this guy is confirming.

[slender bear]

Need some new specs

[sudden pewter]

@analog pewter Welcome to green.

[serene glade]

Everyone is green, disgusting

[analog pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/ivy-deadlock-ball-bounce-bouncer-gif-782304131420154717

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/rhinocéros-slap-treasure-map-rhino-gif-6565411912883564363

[sullen plover]

I want pistol weapons for medium like it would be nice to have like a riot shield with a pistol or dual glocks

[slender bear]

Riot with a glock sounds horrifying

[analog pewter]

oh you meant as gadgets, hell nah

i do want something like the HK mk 23 as a medium pistol option tho

[unkempt moss]

I assumed he meant like rainbow six where they have a pistol with the riotshield

[analog pewter]

im tired of games overlooking one of the coolest handguns ever put to service

a cool way to set it apart from the pike would be to make it a bloom weapon like the deagles or ks-23, and when you ADS the laser light turns on giving you really tight spread but revealing your LOS

so no full ADS, but like C.A.R. aim holding the pistol centered and canted
https://www.usacarry.com/car-shooting-system/

like mf john wick

[unkempt moss]

I was saying thats how the V9S should work, with a canted grip for ADS similar to deagles. But the laser giving away the user is a great idea.

[analog pewter]

a C.A.R.-held pistol for medium would be crazy fucking aura. I would use that all the time, easily become my secondary to the model

light and medium lack bloom weapons while heavy has two, this would be a great way to extend the mechanic to the other archetypes

wait sorry heavy has three

[unkempt moss]

I assumed that was a choice because heavy is supposed to be bad at range.

[analog pewter]

yeah give me my close quarters pistol for medium PLEASEEEE and make it 1.5x headshot multiplier so it's not as headshot reliant as deagles and revolver PLEASEEEEEEE

[analog pewter]

yea but given the other classes also have shotguns I feel like it's worth expanding the domain

you could still tune it to be better at range than deagles with faster potential shot pacing, especially with the "laser exposes LOS" feature

[unkempt moss]

Thank you for reminding what that grip style is called btw. Its been bugging me for a while now.

[analog pewter]

god it would be so cool i want it so bad

@sudden pewter you will evaluate my idea here

[sudden pewter]

Proceed with idea

[analog pewter]

pistol for medium that has a laser module and you hold it C.A.R. style, so it's a bloom weapon instead of a recoil weapon
when you ADS, the laser turns on and the spread tightens dramatically giving you respectable range potential
ideally something like the HK Mk 23 SOCOM, as above

[sudden pewter]

Pistol so I sleep

[analog pewter]

held like wick style
that's C.A.R.
https://www.usacarry.com/car-shooting-system/

[sudden pewter]

Everything gun. No thank

[analog pewter]

wtf do u mean everything gun...

[sudden pewter]

Bad range good cqc when not ADS but then flips when you ADS

Everything gun

Give it a niche and stick to it

[analog pewter]

respectable doesn't mean great lol
you'd still have to pace shots which puts it in a league below every rifle
but it wouldn't be purely fucking random like the deagles

[opal goblet]

https://tenor.com/view/easter-doe-eating-deer-eating-popcorn-funny-gif-4621167703268332056

[sudden pewter]

Don’t even at me with the deagles rn I was trying to break a Zipline in TDM and every shot missed even though I was perfectly on target and I chimped out

[analog pewter]

also you have no imagination you just shut everything down without thinking constructively on how the idea could be worked out

imaginationlet

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/wawa-emdeb-fail-failure-cat-gif-16703817715131368982

[analog pewter]

id like to see them try a bloom weapon with a slow recenter speed but that is perfectly accurate on that first shot even while strafing

[opal goblet]

https://tenor.com/view/town-of-salem-2-nerd-emoji-gron-kirb-kirdbo-gif-6252893203772429439

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/wawa-emdeb-fail-failure-cat-gif-16703817715131368982

Third times the charm

[sudden pewter]

You asked me to evaluate not iterate

Consider pairing it with a bare feet cosmetic so your foes can hear you coming

[analog pewter]

if u werent a goofy goober you'd realize that iteration is the best form of evaluation

cynical ahh catboy

[sudden pewter]

I play Heavy and you expect me to use my brain smh

[analog pewter]

anyways medium would never have an "everything gun" bc they're not allowed to kill fast enough to compete with the other 2
unless the weapon's name is repeater

[sudden pewter]

Revolver exists dawg

[analog pewter]

revolver can kill one guy before having to reload 😔

[sudden pewter]

And it does it FAST

[analog pewter]

i have yet to see a decent revolver user who isnt like diamond or ruby rank, weapon reserved for the absolute best players to start being functional

headshot reliance in a game this fast and erratic and chaotic is just irrational design

[sudden pewter]

I tremble in my boots as a Minigun user when a revolver user is in the lobby because I can get glue trapped and die instantly

[viscid carbon]

#👂┇game-feedback message

What do y'all think?

[sudden pewter]

I think I’ll be polite and say nothing

[viscid carbon]

Because God forbid we make Medium's arsenal truly good

[viscid carbon]

#👂┇game-feedback message

@bitter geyser Unfortunately you can't add a single digit of damage to the AKM otherwise it'll simply be a better FCAR

[grand turtle]

You can do that to model
+1 damage per pellet and it will be good again :)

[viscid carbon]

It would help with consistency for sure

[bitter geyser]

Even if FCAR keeps the +1 dmg and old RPM?

I just want to be rid of this disgusting poke meta

[viscid carbon]

Yes

Yeah poke meta is so annoying, just get chipped for a third or a half of your hp from Narnia, not fun

[bitter geyser]

I see this now, hmm

+20 RPM to AK

[viscid carbon]

Yeah the only things you can buff on the AKM are capacity and recoil tbh

[grand turtle]

The poke weapons would not be so oppressive if the short range weapons did not suck a long one at their ranges.

The fact you can out-repeat a model or P90 at close is insane

[indigo nexus]

What about reload speed?

[viscid carbon]

but muh realism, AKM has always been 600 RPM lol

[bitter geyser]

Gameshow, anything goes…

[viscid carbon]

That too, good suggestion

[bitter geyser]

Lewis being buffed was so good i just am so upset they didnt do they same to fcar

[grand turtle]

AKM lost its charm when the most random mag nerf happened

[viscid carbon]

Lewis got 1 damage without nerfed RPM yeah

[bitter geyser]

Reshaper nerf killed a bit of my soul

[viscid carbon]

In my big ass post I suggested bringing back the 36 rounder and slightly reducing the leftward recoil at the beginning of the recoil pattern

To still make it appealing over a 23 damage 540 RPM FCAR

Medium always gets the short end of the stick, with the Repeater being the only exception, and it'll probably be nerfed eventually anyway

[grand turtle]

The fact I can only see Repeater, Revolver and somewhat Fcar as the only good options and yet the solution is to drag them down to absolute mediocrity of P90 and Model...

[bitter geyser]

Famas?

Also idk, the model for me is perfectly ok, you can two tap lights from narnia and dueling close range is pretty alright since you arent restrained by ADSing

Like the only thing that sucks about the model is fighting a heavy who can actually track, but besides that, the light and medium fights feel alright

[viscid carbon]

I think it's stupid that the FAMAS kills L in 3 bursts, M in 4 but H in 6

They should buff its damage to 24 so it can kill H in 5 bursts, and reduce the RPM to 210 to mirror the 93R for counterbalance I guess

[bitter geyser]

Yeah, you just have to sprinkle a headshot in

But tbf it has zero recoil, and ive had no issues on it either i suppose

[viscid carbon]

Still bothers me a bit lol, even if you don't feel it often

[grand turtle]

Famas was really nice but devs made it worse to use (making recoil kick harder) just because it was good

I cant use it now. If I aim at heads, I tend to miss the rest of the burst.

And model is conveniently right below fullshot+QM kill on light and requires 4 shots to kill a heavy.
Same amount the repeater does without headshots

[bitter geyser]

Reasonable

Repeater just needs to be shadow realmed

[viscid carbon]

Legit

Undo the buffs from a while back

[bitter geyser]

I wouldnt mind another RPM buff to the model, genuinely every time they do that it feels so much better

[bitter geyser]

It was just the STK for the heavies no?

[viscid carbon]

I think for Mediums too? Can't remember

[bitter geyser]

Oh i thought mediums was always 3 and heavies was 5

Changed one breakpoint and suddenly it was being used by everyone

[grand turtle]

Or they could just add 1 damage to pellets...

I dont want to see nerfs to repeater, because I know its gonna die like Pike and Cerb and next in line is Revolver :^)

[viscid carbon]

Oh it was 3shot for Medium even before the buff

[bitter geyser]

Which is honestly very strange to me

[viscid carbon]

It was 84 damage previously

[bitter geyser]

I genuinely dont know why it became so popular after a change to one class’s duel potential

Model has how many pellets? 12?

Or 6, i can’t remember idk

[viscid carbon]

9 pellets, 12 damage

[grand turtle]

If it goes to 84 damage, its gonna be 5 shots for a heavy.
Which wont be appealing at all. Too much risk for how unforgiving the gun is.

[viscid carbon]

83 and it's a 4shot to Medium lol

[bitter geyser]

You can still duel like 2/3s of every other class anyways though

Insane range, you have mostly free movement while close-med range fights

[viscid carbon]

Maybe lower the damage drastically but give it better HS multiplier

[bitter geyser]

Since its just an ADS spam

[bitter geyser]

They should have done this to the pike, given it a 2x HS multi

[grand turtle]

Imo slow firerate precision weapons should work like that
Reward the epic headshots

[viscid carbon]

#👂┇game-feedback message

[bitter geyser]

Oh well, i just wish embark wasn’t so scared to make more balance changes

[viscid carbon]

What do you guys think of these suggestions

[grand turtle]

True. 2m range changes and small cooldown reductions...
But the effectiveness is the problem

[bitter geyser]

P90 is honestly ok where it is at rn, its just more of a comfort pick for plat players and i think thats fine. Everything else reads well though

[viscid carbon]

I think the P90 could still use a small push

It's just lackluster compared to the ARs

[bitter geyser]

The AKM kinda fills the area on what you want p90 to go into, it is an SMG afterall

[viscid carbon]

If they revert the RPM nerf on the FCAR, the TTK will be quite close to that of the P90

Hence I think it should gain slightly better range so it doesn't become obsolete

[grand turtle]

P90 is a joke
Peashooter at best that is even worse the moment enemy moves out of the hug zone around you

It does not need more range.
It needs shredding power up close

[viscid carbon]

+1 damage then

But atp it's almost an XP

[bitter geyser]

Eh, i think we have different ideas on what the p90 should be, personally it’s just a comfort pick for players with ok aim who want uptime or a solid ability to SMG close range duel

the AKM is more of a close-med range weapon, which is somewhat the next “level” where the P90 is right now

[grand turtle]

I dont know what "comfort pick" is.
But I know that you are better off with fcar for that.

[bitter geyser]

Low skill easy to aim

Doesnt have much recoil, the hipfire is pretty good, lots of ammo

[viscid carbon]

P90 - AKM - FCAR
Descending RPM and capacity but ascending damage and range

[indigo nexus]

I’m concerned that that would be too big a buff. If any buff is warranted it’s surely a slight one, imo.

[bitter geyser]

Yeah, and also the P90 > AKM > FCAR has ascending? hipfire tightness

[viscid carbon]

Are 4 rounds that much to ask for? If so then just buff the reload speed slightly

[grand turtle]

4 bullets is a small buff for that kind of gun

And it is a revert of a pointless nerf in the first place

[bitter geyser]

The AKM was okay with 36 before, but I honestly would prefer if automatics got buffs in terms of raw DPS/dueling ability

[indigo nexus]

Well, since it was nerfed in the first place from that, I assume so.

[indigo nexus]

I’d definitely rather they just nerfed repeater than make the automatics more lethal.

[viscid carbon]

23 damage 540 RPM FCAR would be extremely potent, with better TTK vs all classes compared to the AKM, hence my suggestion

[bitter geyser]

Yeah but besides famas, medium is genuinely a victim class now

[grand turtle]

And better hipfire for AKM would be nice.
It shoots space

[indigo nexus]

Besides famas? I’m not sure what you mean

[bitter geyser]

They need better weapons, lights weapons are solid, their gadgets stink though, heavy has solid weapons and decently balanced gadgets AND decently viable specs, medium has 2 dead specs, 2 maybe 3 viable weapons and has been hardstuck on 3 gadgets for the last 5 seasons

[viscid carbon]

As a medium main, life is pain lol

[bitter geyser]

If you nerf repeater, the only viable weapon for medium is the famas and revo

Fcar stinks now, akm is meh, cerb is fun but sucks because of how DOT works, model is ok but not really insane

[indigo nexus]

This is just confusing to me. Light gadgets are really good, that’s how they survive in ranked. All of them only have 2 maybe 3 viable weapons, that’s just how meta goes.

“hardstuck on 3 gadgets” - which three? Heavy and light have stricter gadget allocations than medium for sure.

[indigo nexus]

The FCAR nerf was slight, this seems an exaggeration

[bitter geyser]

Heavy has deagles shak lewis sa bfr and maybe m60

[viscid carbon]

Respectfully disagree on the last point. You only ever see medium running goo, pad, fib or zip in place of goo

[bitter geyser]

Gadgets wise, whilst yes, dome c4 rpg are the standard, we’ve seen flexes to healball, barricade and goo nades

[viscid carbon]

Pyro mine too

[bitter geyser]

Lights have a choice btw invis bomb i suppose

[bitter geyser]

Lowk pyro mines are slept on

[viscid carbon]

Infuser, gateway, glitch, vanish bomb, sonar, maybe thermal bore or goo

[bitter geyser]

Idk ab bore tbh, but ive seen goo

[viscid carbon]

Medium only has 4 good gadgets

[indigo nexus]

Perhaps, but switching to another pick I’m pretty confident is less problematic than dropping the meta gadgets for light and heavy.

[bitter geyser]

Bore needs to burn goo* way faster

[viscid carbon]

Light and Heavy have lots of good gadget options outside the meta, Medium does not

[bitter geyser]

You can’t really swap to anything else on medium though, like maybe APS if you can coordinate well with a heavy bub, but everything else gadget wise is pretty gutted

[grand turtle]

I use explosive mine on medium, but rest is always pad and defib

Wish gas was more deadly.
Its kinda dead

[bitter geyser]

Gas c4 stalls were my go to w my heavy, worked super well

[indigo nexus]

Glitch trap and frag nade?

[viscid carbon]

Useless

[bitter geyser]

Frags have been gutted

[indigo nexus]

That’s an extreme exaggeration

[viscid carbon]

Why would you ever use those over goo or zipline?

[bitter geyser]

Theyre more of an annoyance than actually adding value im gonna be honest

[grand turtle]

Gas stops being useful the moment enemy has fire nade or fire weapon.

It even has a short time of no damage for some reason

[indigo nexus]

They’re completely different specialisations, so this is a confusing response

[viscid carbon]

Situational usefulness

Goo and zip are simply exponentially more useful more often

[indigo nexus]

“exponentially” doesn’t make sense in this context.

[bitter geyser]

You only have 3 choices, you’re obviously bringing fibs and pads if you arent throwing, so the last spot is usually taken by goo, but are you not making an argument of utility for other choices?

[indigo nexus]

I would definitely say glitch trap / frag nade are better picks for medium than thermal bore is for light. Or than pyro nade is for heavy given the recent nerf

[indigo nexus]

That is what I am doing, yes. Those gadgets seem to perform well in general, if not strictly meta.

[bitter geyser]

Yes, so then frags were gutted, and glitch mines are more of “oh no, anyways” esque interacion

[viscid carbon]

Yeah legit

Only gadget I'd ever replace goo with is zipline

[bitter geyser]

Usually for double H honestly

[viscid carbon]

Zip is just very nice overall but yeah

[indigo nexus]

“gutted” seems a major exaggeration. Which change are you referring to here?

Useful for the same reason glitch nades are. They were meta when you could deploy two of them in quick succession

[indigo nexus]

What kind of RS level do you play at, for comparison?