💣┇weapons-gadgets

[chilly granite]

it's like +200-+600 on a second and then 56/78 is like -800 -1200

I've been running grapple and that's been good for making sure I get at least 5/6

[chilly granite]

😄

I won my final round

I'm net +300rs now but it would've been enough to put me in gold if I didn't lose 1.1k from the dumb bug where it said i abandoned

[subtle gulch]

What if we play togheter i was gold

[chilly granite]

I'm boutta go sleep hahah

[subtle gulch]

Me too

[chilly granite]

but yeha, I did sonar/frag/flash first/second round

third round I swapped sonar for gas because I wanted easy stall, and the enemy had two lights and a medium, so chip damage from gas is pretty powerful, and zoning against the DB is also good

the gas was very significant for my final round

I've been running grapple instead of dash. it feels really bad in a firefight, but being able to grab vaults, bail if my team is feeding, rescue a statue, and get early taps on vaults and fast dunks is really good in solo queue

if I had a functional team, dash would be much better for sure, but in solo queue, grapple is much nicer since it allows more options for cheesing a 3rd or evena second place

[subtle gulch]

@chilly granite can we play tomorrow?

[chilly granite]

idk my schedule is kinda non-existant, ifyou wanna play get the lfg channels

[subtle gulch]

How can i get It?

[glass egret]

https://tenor.com/view/ferrari-speech-bubble-lewis-hamilton-charles-leclerc-gif-8256121814235423668

[indigo nexus]

Not really, those graphs are not very good.

Nice info, I could theoretically use this to finally construct a graph that did the realistic capabilities of the bow justice. However it would be very complex to do, so that is unlikely to happen in the near future

[near scroll]

the LH1 is just harder than ARN by default considering ARN is possibly the easiest gun to use in this game, the difference in regular and visual recoil between both guns is significant enough that i disagree with your last statement

[near scroll]

what's wrong with them

i feel like damage ramp up would've been a great mechanic to balance the guns in this game around, but maybe im mistaken. it would at least give one more balancing factor to help make poke metas not too oppressive

[indigo nexus]

They don’t correctly handle damage falloff, don’t represent quick melees or consider breakpoints other than pure headshot / pure bodyshot

[near scroll]

good to know, thanks

[chilly granite]

Idk why embark thinks weapons need a falloff floor

If you're not balancing ranged DPS with spread then you need to let them keep falling off

[indigo nexus]

Maybe it’s related to how they don’t give detailed information on their guns, so wouldn’t want people to be annoyed to discover that their gun was doing basically nothing at a long distance, or… something

[chilly granite]

Or people just snipe with low recoil smgs

Like every single time I'm against a ruby M11 they're shooting me from 50m away and doing better DPS than the xp would

[indigo nexus]

We may never know the theory behind it

I like how arc raiders handled gun mechanics.

[chilly granite]

Even a tiny amount of spread would mitigate this a lot

Tbh I think making every gun projectile like arc would be a great step to nerfing poke meta

But poke meta is a side effect of the maps being too fkn big for the number of players per team and number of teams

You have 12 players on a map something like 5x bigger than csgos biggest map for 10 players

R6 maps are fucking closets for 5v5

I get that they have a different direction but the map size is suitable for point break, not 3v3

[indigo nexus]

I don’t think the finals is similar enough to these in other aspects for this comparison to tell us much.

[chilly granite]

The maps all feel a lot better in 8v8 than 3v3

[chilly granite]

I mean, for a self referential comparison, h2h, quick cash, cashout and tdm

The maps at least to me feel insanely huge on h2h

On quick cash it's a total pain in the ass how big the maps are because you can lose on griefey spawns so often

Cashout feels decent but there's still moments where it's like, oh I just have to waste 45s running to the other side of the map or where there's no option but to run through a super long exposed corridor (the bit by hospital on skyway? The office building that has amazing sightlines on 3 jump pads)

Then tdm feels too small for sure

But most tdm maps are significantly smaller than csgo or R6 maps

[indigo nexus]

I’ve only really seen friends play CS, never really played it myself - but those maps always looked smaller than TDM maps

But I do think TDM feels too small for sure

[chilly granite]

Cs is played with 74 fov so it'll look smaller anyway

[indigo nexus]

I’ve never minded the map size for cashout, it seems kind of necessary to keep teams from all clumping together

Could just, spawn people closer to objectives (and vice versa), if one wanted less traversal.

[near scroll]

maps are fine for cashout, but yea for other less populated modes, especially ones with only one objective, they can feel quite large.
i think we shouldn't clump "big" and "open" maps together though, like seoul doesn't feel particularily large, but it's very open so it makes poke more oppressive

[chilly granite]

I feel like map size is a problem for final round

Or map size Vs the developers ability to program good spawn logic

[near scroll]

if you wanna reduce the feeling of "too big" on modes that aren't cashout, you could use the TDM barriers or point break kill zones to restrict playable area to a smaller zone around the objective
and to reduce the feeling of "too open" either nerf poke meta lol, buff cover and movement optoins, or rework the maps

[chilly granite]

If the map was smaller the spawn logic doesn't need to be good and your spawn is less likely to be stupid bad

[near scroll]

agreed. i'm not entirely sure but i think reducing the playable space once an objective starts to ensure spawns are cloesr and stuff could do some good

[chilly granite]

I think all weapons getting a little bit of spread like the deagles would help a lot with maps that feel too open and the poke meta

[near scroll]

personally i don't like random spread as a balancing factor

[chilly granite]

Honestly I thought deagles would be decent Vs poke meta but hitting shots on a CB at 60m isn't viable with deagles

[near scroll]

i'd rather use ramp up and fall off

[near scroll]

too real, especially after the fall off nerf

[chilly granite]

The deagles have a very small amount of spread, it won't affect anything within about 35m?

Like it'd be one in 50 shots that miss from spread and not aim

[near scroll]

but isn't this frustrating tho? i aimed good and clicked head, gimme hitmarker

fall off can balance it out

[chilly granite]

If the Devs don't want to give infinite falloff, they need to add spread

Like the arn shouldn't just hit a ttk floor of 1.5s on a light and keep killing that fast to infinity

[near scroll]

like don't get me wrong, what you're saying makes sense, but imo making hitting shots consistent but the reward for hitting your shots variable depending on you and your opponent's circumstances feels better

[chilly granite]

But also, the deagles shouldn't have spread on ads

[near scroll]

🤷‍♂️ i agree. i think generalist weapons are boring and them being stronger than specialist options lead to a lame meta

[chilly granite]

If the deagles have it, everything should. The M11 shouldn't be outperforming deagles at 40 meters with perfect skill on both players

[near scroll]

i dont think it does lol but i agree, it's stupid that m11 has such good fall off %

[chilly granite]

It does if they don't miss

Most people will miss, even the rubies miss some shots with M11 at 40

[near scroll]

no way, lemme math it rq

[chilly granite]

You gotta calculate the hit chance on a light at 40m

[indigo nexus]

I’ve only seen legitimate long range beams where virtually every shot hits against targets that weren’t moving or were moving in a straight line.

[chilly granite]

I'm vibesing that one

I'm still mad about losing my world tour cashout to a ruby m11 earlier

[near scroll]

lol

[chilly granite]

I'm not sure if it is 40m exactly, but somewhere around there the spread is too inconsistent to hit headshots on light

[near scroll]

i mean yeah if m11 hits everything and deagles doesnt hit a headshot it's possible they win but realistically very unlikely

[chilly granite]

You will lose to an arn though I'm pretty sure

[indigo nexus]

mid range weapon loses to long range weapon at long range, more at 11.

[chilly granite]

He flanked my ass so I had no angular velocity

I mean, some people cheat to hit shots like that, but I wasn't suspicious of him, just pissed off he's bullying me in unranked

[chilly granite]

Midrange breaking even with the literally in your face weapon at long range is the bigger problem

I just think the arn is too good and wanted to complainn

[near scroll]

given that it's both the easiest gun in the game and a generalist AR that is still reliable at close ranges, yeah i think it's too much of a jack of all trades

[chilly granite]

I mean, the arn deserves to have an ass ttk in close range

It's only like, 30ms slower than the xp, a weapon that is outdpsed by the M11 at 31 meters

[near scroll]

like, XP-54 is now kinda supposed to be the jack of all trades of light, and it feels significantly weaker at filling that role than ARN

[indigo nexus]

Mainly due to the ARN’s quickswap, I think. It helps the weapon a ton, the XP doesn’t have an advantage to really counterbalance that.

[chilly granite]

The xp has the problem of not being substantially better enough ttk than the arn, while also having a totally ass magazine size and reload, so you 1) can't kill a m+h in 1 mag, and 2) then have the longest fucking reload in the world

[indigo nexus]

Still, the XP is funny. It was at one point previously slightly better than it is now, and people would just not shut up about how OP it was.

[near scroll]

personally i've always viewed the XP-54 as the jack of all trades, one clip oriented gun who's weakness is mid reload speed

or at least i think that's what it should be

[chilly granite]

Yeah good take, and it does that well

[near scroll]

i still think it's a stupid af mechanic to give to ARN out of all guns like wtf

[chilly granite]

The problem for the xp is that the M11 has same falloff multi so it does more DPS at long range, and the long range option also is only fractionally slower up close

[indigo nexus]

I don’t mind that at all in an abstract sense, it makes it quite unique

[near scroll]

ngl when i saw ARN had that mechanic when it was first teased, i thought it was going to be a heavy gun bc of it, with similar mindset as M60

[chilly granite]

And both are just better outside of the DPS of xp

[near scroll]

i agree but it's weird that it's on ARN that is a light gun

light doesnt really want to stay in a fight anyways, it mostly helps keep poking uncontested from rooftops for longer

[chilly granite]

The only advantage the xp has over the M11/arn is just DPS, but that DPS advantage is so slight and situational, that it's a moot point

[indigo nexus]

I don’t really relate.

[chilly granite]

I don't think it's weird on a light gun I think it's weird on a long range weapons

[near scroll]

it's DPS at a very specific range, to be precise

[chilly granite]

Long range weapons doesn't need big mag because hard to push far enemy so safe reload

Arn could be interesting as a close range sustain poke weapon

[indigo nexus]

XP is pretty much directly in the middle of ARN and M11 ttk at close range, for reference

[near scroll]

i think a long range sustain auto hitscan that's on light shouldn't have mag size or damage per mag as a strength

[indigo nexus]

It seems a sensible and interesting way to counterbalance what would otherwise be an inherently very strong weapon specialisation, to me.

[chilly granite]

The double mag is just giving a long range poke weapon the ability to be good in cab

Cqb*

Putting double mag on a long range weapons doesn't make the specialisation weaker, it just makes the weapon more generically powerful

Like the arn can just win Vs the xp in cqb if you can bait a few shots because you'll out mag them

Or if they've been shooting your trammye

[near scroll]

it doesnt really help all that much in 1v1s, given competent players. it does help for teamfights tho

[chilly granite]

The mag sizes are big enough it's hard to bait enough shots, but it's extremely easy for an arn to push an xp who has shot their teammate

And it's much harder for xp to do inverse because of the risk of an enemy making it a 2v1

[indigo nexus]

To be fair the XP can kill a light in less than a third of its mag, you’d have to bait a lot of shots for this to be reliable

[chilly granite]

The only 2v1 and xp can realistically win, even assuming a huge skill gap, is ll

[indigo nexus]

And of course, the ARN can’t exactly leverage a burst damage advantage to make that work. It’s only going to get more damage in than the other if it outplays the other

[alpine sphinx]

Evasive dash nerfs when?

[near scroll]

that's fair enough. but then again most lights run dash so they'd have time to get cover and reaload surely

[near scroll]

not a moment too soon brother 😔

[alpine sphinx]

i swear, dash lights are a plague

[chilly granite]

The ttk difference is 1 bullet, and the recoil is substantially harder on the xp imho, so I actually think the xp loses it

[indigo nexus]

If the range was high enough for recoil to make much of a difference for the player in question then I’d agree, I assumed this was a closer range fight

[near scroll]

XP recoil isn't hard but given what ARN recoil is i can't even say you're wrong LOL

[chilly granite]

The xp wants to be fighting at 17m at least or it'll get owned by v9s/m11

And honestly if it's cuddling so much that you hipfire the arn wins it because the bloom on the xp is too big and all the damn shots miss

You run out of bullets so fast on xp hipfire lol, I can't even kill a heavy with that crap

Xp recoil is easy. But the arn recoil is like? Lol? Recoil?

[indigo nexus]

This depends entirely on what it’s fighting against

[chilly granite]

Tbh it depends more on map than anything

[indigo nexus]

ARN has a little worse hipfire than the XP does

[chilly granite]

Hmm I wonder how much impact the shooting hipfire bloom has

It might be luck bias but for me the arn seems to have much better hipfire

Anyway, point being for a gun that's rock solid out to infinity, it's way too good in cqb

Give the arn 16 damage a shot and the world is at peace

But yeah, I really hate how steep the falloff curves for most weapons are and how they flatline

Idk why embark can't just give them logarithmic falloff? So it starts steep and then plateaus, but always gets worse

Feel like that would help so much

That alone would fix the M11/xp problem

Someone post that in game feedback

@indigo nexus btw how long does it take for quickmelee? Damage delay and reload time? It feels pretty instant and reload seems 1 s for me but that seems long time

I want to expand my bow stats when I wake up tomorrow

[indigo nexus]

If you fire both side by side with a dispersion reticule I think it’s visible enough

[chilly granite]

I'm in bed trying to sleep or I'd try lol

[indigo nexus]

Something interesting would be if the falloff was engineered to give an exponential / linear / whatever TTK curve

I’ve never seen a game do that before. But it sounds like a good idea.

[chilly granite]

I think v9s having linear falloff rather than exponential would be a cool niche for it

But yes I like that idea

[vocal stone]

Guys, do you think Model should two tap mediums and three tap heavies or its damage just fine as it is now?

[stoic garden]

lowkey increase its rpm and nerf repeater's

[vocal stone]

Yeah, that would be nice. Medium's shotties feel a bit underwhelming overall

[near scroll]

it really shouldn't, 1/2/3 shots + QM for L/M/H respectively, assuming all hit shots were solid meatshots with all pellets landing sounds like the sweet spot to me

[near scroll]

highkey bring back quick melee pump cancel 😭

[vocal stone]

Yeah, i agree with that. I just think it should be a bit more oppressive at a closer range to outgun good repeater player. An rpm increases would be nice indeed

[stoic garden]

TRUE

[near scroll]

yeah repeater is just stupid

[stoic garden]

fuck that nerf ong 😭

[near scroll]

i wish there was damage ramp up on top of damage fall off in this game, so shotguns just ARE better than stuff like repeater, when in the intended range

[near scroll]

☝️🤓 umm actually skill expression and combos aren't cool or fun guys
-embarf, probably

[stoic garden]

they been slowly removing all qm combo potential from guns and melees 🤔

except for my fella matter

if i didnt play arn i'd play matter

[indigo nexus]

No, that’s what made it the most overpowered weapon this game had ever seen

[stoic garden]

52 damage lh1

[bright sequoia]

i need tier list weapons pls. 🙏

[cursive elm]

Can I get the spreadsheet of the weapon stats?

[indigo nexus]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ud7Rdl3AgMw9mmfDwW2LtDMnzZQ9IIhnqSE4ivsaMTs there is this one but it hasn't been kept up to date

[near scroll]

learn the forbidden tech and satisfaction shall be yours once more, child

[stoic garden]

i dont want to gadgetswap my keyboard is already in shambles

[near scroll]

so be it. may this satisfaction stay a distant memory to you 😔

[grand turtle]

Model needs that +1 damage per pellet for sure.

[cursive elm]

Thanks

[near scroll]

chat, what do we think about damage ramp up as well as fall off?

[indigo nexus]

Not a fan as it's a bit unintuitive.

However it could be a nice way to add more variety to weapons

[near scroll]

what do you think is unintuitive about it? and would you say the same of fall off?

[teal lance]

Sniper doing more damage from range sounds interesting

[near scroll]

i like the idea too but i can understand it'd be unintuitive

the point i was getting at though, would be to have designated close range weapons have that extra damage ramp up that other longer range/versatile options wouldnt have

for instance : m11 could have up to +50%dmg in ramp up, xp-54 up to +25% and ARN up to +10%, and in exchange we can balance base stats differently. like m11 has lower base dmg than xp-54, but when you factor in damage ramp up m11 becomes higher dmg

[indigo nexus]

A shot fired from a gun dealing less damage due to having been in the air for less time - that is the implication, isn’t it?

Currently we can already have guns be weak at close range just by having stronger closer range alternatives, so it’s not a balance tool that opens up a lot of possibility, just a bit of variety.

[near scroll]

no it's the opposite, shots fired point blank receive bonus damage.
the damage ramps up as you get closer to your target

[indigo nexus]

Oh. That’s just falloff..?

[near scroll]

it's a similar principle to falloff, meant to be used in tandem, to further fine tune performance at different ranges without having to resort to stuff like random spread

[indigo nexus]

So as in, having multiple falloff periods

[near scroll]

i like it cause it can make it easier to estimate what damage you'll get at what range

[indigo nexus]

Sounds fine to me as long as it’s used carefully

I’m not sure what one would use it for right now

[near scroll]

indeed it should, and i dont even know if it'd be perfect for this game but i think theres cases where it cold help

[indigo nexus]

However communicating it to the user could be tricky

[near scroll]

i dont think so

[indigo nexus]

The game really should show a little graph for weapon falloff.

[near scroll]

that is true

but yeah all in all you can also think of it as one more falloff stage, but basically i'd like it cause it could mean there's a vast-ish range of base damage, a smaller range up close of more damage, and then the actual falloff for significantly long ranges

could help with stuff like m11 having the potential to contest XP-54 when falloff is applied (given equivalent accuracy)

[indigo nexus]

That’s already fixable

I think the reason why it isn’t fixed is because for the vast majority of players, the recoil handles that well enough.

Which relates to my personal stance that randomised recoil is a very useful balance mechanic!

[near scroll]

i understand your sentiment but personally i hate balancing via randomness, for skill based games like FPS at least

[indigo nexus]

Same as doing it in any other way, I think.

Aim is already random, I don’t respect it as a higher level skill just because people can practice it.

[near scroll]

i fundamentally dislike that in my competitive skill based video game i could theoretically lose an engagement not because of a difference in skill output in this moment but because of sheer luck.

[indigo nexus]

Thats how it’s happening either way, your body is not mechanically perfect. I would like to make the point that by having muscle-memory-based recoil control determine your ability to hit enough shots at range, with a faster firing weapon it may be less random to flatten it out with spread rather than relying on the human body’s capabilities to match a certain level, because people are not consistent.

That’s a common disconnect between myself and a lot of people, a lot of people view the traits of parts of themselves other than the authority of their conscious mind as being fundamentally different to external influences that are equally outside of their direct authority. I do not.

[jagged oriole]

mega yapping

[near scroll]

i'm not really arguing for what factually happens in the rounds, i'm more arguing for a game balance philosophy. of course human error will make a perfect stat system lead to unexpected results, but those results are directly impacted by the human input, and not some computer generated random number

[indigo nexus]

(Also, at a higher level, more of a game state overview, I think that a player’s ability being heavily dependant on how readily they are capable of absorbing deterministic recoil control skills is very random and has a major negative influence on things. As a result, if/when I create a shooter game, I wouldn’t want that.)

[indigo nexus]

Computer generated or human generated, I don’t think there’s an inherent difference. Except for when the difference is a conscious decision, because the game is designed to interact with us on that level.

[alpine sphinx]

@indigo nexus about the post in #👂┇game-feedback
M11/XP are still meta, in addition to ARN now, AKM/Famas/FCAR are still meta, Defi is still meta, evasive dash is still meta, Demat is still meta

[indigo nexus]

As long as a game consists of a decent enough sample size of skill-based events such that random influence (which is not brought on by the unpredictability of your enemy’s decision making) becomes pretty much negligible as a component, I think the situation is good

[alpine sphinx]

medium/light meta has barely changed at all

[indigo nexus]

XP is very much not meta, M11 is good, but that has certainly changed. ARN has not been in the game for long enough to count here.

AKM has never been meta. FCAR hasn’t been meta since season 2. Famas wasn’t meta nearly two years ago, it became meta later, and I don’t think is really meta now. Demat has been usurped by healbeam.

[near scroll]

i really do understand your philosophy, but the fact that individual plays do not offer uniform rewards makes this worrysome for me, sure you might lose an unsignificant fight cause RNG and it's w.e, but if next major's final cashout is won cause of a shot which could have not landed if the game decided so, that's considerably more problematic and a bad look for this "competitive" game

[near scroll]

there's not a difference in the result, but there's a difference in the philosophy

[indigo nexus]

They never will. I think we both have the same goal of minimising that, however.

In THE FINALS randomness has to be reigned in more than usual, because matches can be determined by a small sample of events.

[near scroll]

indeed! which is precisely why i disagree with using randomness as a balancing factor

[alpine sphinx]

SMGs and ARs have pickrates of over 70% in ranked. And this hasnt changed since release. This is toxic af and boring as hell. And yeah, dash easily has 95% usage in lights

[indigo nexus]

Even so, I view it as a valid balance strategy

[near scroll]

i think it has places in certain niches, like the minigun shouldn't be 100% consistent laser beam, cause the spread incentivizes you to get close, much like shotguns it's part of the weapon design. but i don't think we should be making every gun KS23/Deagles, else we'll be playing counter strike soon enough

[indigo nexus]

Not true, since shotguns have certainly dominated at times (and the SA12 never left). But it’s no surprise the weapon classes with the least counterplay are the most viable. To change this is very hard, as the other weapons are prone to becoming too strong when considering the other 99% of the playerbase if we compensate for that.

Dash has been beaten by invis before, but it has been overrepresented too much I would agree.

[indigo nexus]

Is counter strike not considered one of the most competitive games out there? Video games I guess, not including things like chess.

[alpine sphinx]

it is definitely not too difficult to change ARs and SMGs to become less effective competitively and give space for other weapons. Keeping them at the top for the entire games lifespan is not the solution but results in a boring meta and no shift in gameplay variety

[stoic garden]

in the sense that they dont ads lol

[indigo nexus]

Okay - how?

I know that’s a big question, but I know for sure it’s not a question I could answer even if given a long time. At least, to remedy the problem such that most would stop complaining about it.

It seems impossible to do this without removing most of the weapon variety this game offers.

[alpine sphinx]

increase damage fall off. the reason many of these weapons (especially ARs) are so dominant, is because in many cases the falloff is little enough for them to still be preferable over long range alternatives. Sticking to long range high ground positions should not be as effective with ARs and SMGs (its less viable with smgs, ik, but they have dash which is broken in itself), and changing that would make significant changes to pickrates

there is no reason for an AKM to do consistent good damage over 50+ meters

[indigo nexus]

I’m not sure what you consider good, but that seems a strange use of the word to me.

It seems like any general nerf to the more “meta” picks wouldn’t really help, as it would invariably make other weapons too dominant elsewhere. You would need to rebalance the game such that the skill-dependant components and vulnerabilities of the weapons were all equal across the skill distribution.

(Also, most people are of the opinion that AKM should be buffed, which makes this a curious assertion, even though I don’t really agree with them)

[alpine sphinx]

i dont think thats true, but regardless, anything is better than the garbage we have rn

[indigo nexus]

Well, I’d point to earlier seasons as an easy counterexample :p

Balance seems almost as good as it is likely to get.

[alpine sphinx]

this is because people like to get the weapons they use buffed, and since the akm is one of the most played weapons, that checks

[stoic garden]

can i get my pike with fries and chicken

[alpine sphinx]

and i'd point to player numbers

[indigo nexus]

I think it’s more people who don’t use it because they perceive FCAR / FAMAS to be upgrades. Community feedback as a whole is quite heavily biased towards the most dedicated players, who tend to be relatively good. Not that this says much about the calibre of their takes, but complaints about meta things are more common than complaints about anything else, which is the opposite of what you might otherwise expect

[indigo nexus]

What about them? This does not seem relevant.

[stoic garden]

i didnt use akm in a few seasons until today, i feel like it might outperform fcar due to being better at chipping people and shields thanks to healing and shield meta, but famas still exists

[indigo nexus]

We know for a fact that player retention in the first few seasons was relatively poor compared to what we have now, but that doesn’t seem relevant.

[near scroll]

it is but at comp level what dictates wins and losses is 90% strategy 10% mechanical skill, because the game leads to many "checkmate" scenarios, and each individual player is not as important as they'd be in the finals

[indigo nexus]

Is that not something to strive for?

[near scroll]

depends what kinda game you're making

[indigo nexus]

I don’t yet understand why it was used as a counterargument

[near scroll]

the systems in place in CS heighten the mechanical skill floor but lower the mechanical skill ceiling imo

getting headshots while bhopping is a higher skill maneuver than holding an angle and bodyshotting with AWP, yet CS mechanics prevent players from doing that

[indigo nexus]

I don’t think so. This is pure conjecture, but imagine the case where all weapon dispersion in CS could be compensated for if you learned it for long enough. You could have players who just weren’t very good at the actual game, who became able to blast through the other team just by mastering that, with the movement advantage they’d be able to have.

[near scroll]

how is being good mechanically not being good at the "actual" game

ideally mechanical skills and strategy should both have an impact in your results

more mechanically driven players would follow the lead of their in game leaders who would take safer positions where they can capitalize off of their game sense more, while directing mechanical players to make high risk high reward mechanically driven plays

ideally mechanics and strategy are both as important so that individual players can shine in either aspect and help their team win through that

my point with CS is mechanical skill matters way less than having your team coach tell you how to play the map correctly

you might be the most mechanically gifted player ever but you still can't 1v5 every round while at a disadvantage

[indigo nexus]

Mechanical skill is a bit of a broad term, but anything that just relies on learning muscle memory seems kind of irrelevant? It is not decisions made by your mind, and hence I don’t understand why that would be valued or perceived as intrinsically rewarding. For me it is only extrinsically rewarding in line with a game’s reward mechanisms.

[near scroll]

the intrinsic reward is seeing your growth, aim/movement/muscle memory is a skill you hone, and seeing the imporvement and knowing that you are performing well given your abilities is what gives intrinsic satisfaction

much like knowing you made the correct decision is satisfying, knowing you "passed the skill check" feels good

also your mechanical skill should heavily dictate what decision you make, so i think it's a bit unfair to discard mechanical skill as something unsatisfying

[indigo nexus]

Taking a possessive stance on it seems odd to me. I just consider it a part of my body’s function rather than anything related to the entity I experience the world as (me).

[indigo nexus]

It makes sense that this is a consideration but I don’t see the relevance of this clause to the discussion.

[near scroll]

okay ngl i was not expecting this game design discussion to go into philosophy and stuff, but wouldn't you say you are in control of your own body?

[indigo nexus]

To an extent.

[near scroll]

yes muscle memory is mostly unconcious but you are the one telling it what actions to take

[indigo nexus]

Muscle memory and subconscious processes, I do not feel in control over.

[alpine sphinx]

dash needs to get fucking deleted from the game i swear to god

such a fucking annoying mechanic to play against and in many cases straight up unfair

[near scroll]

i understand that, but you made the decision to get into a situation where you need to use muscle memory, thus you "summoned" that part of you. you might not control every muscle movement or whatever, but you are still the "green light" that enables your body to move

[near scroll]

i dislike matchup checks/checkmate situations too bud 😔

[indigo nexus]

Sure, so I may have more interest in the decision itself. What happened afterwards was outside of my control, so only the extrinsically rewarding consequences of it would interest me.

[alpine sphinx]

they shouldnt exist, not to the extend where you can literally only do something if the enemy has a few extra chromosomes

[indigo nexus]

From my perspective, thinking otherwise would be like downloading an aimbot and feeling proud about how many shots you were hitting, because it only happened because of your doing.

Which, actually could explain a lot…

[near scroll]

so what about stuff like recognizing a shift in trajectory or movement speed that thus requires an adjustment in your mechanical output? like mid spray recoil adjustments? are these subconcious? or are they very quick decisions, that happen in a fraction of a second?

[indigo nexus]

I want to ask a cheater about that now.

[near scroll]

i'd argue when i see my enemy take a pad and i try to track em, while i might not have the time to properly articulate a sentence in my head representing what i'm seeing, my brain receives the information and very consciously tells my body to adapt

[indigo nexus]

A grey area certainly exists! It is a scale, but some things I think can be said to definitely fall into one category rather than the other.

Hence I specifically noted that “mechanical skill” is a broader field than what I’m talking about.

Mid spray recoil adjustments in my experience are conscious things, but it’s possible that’s not the same for everyone..? This is why I view random recoil as having a significant skill component, because it’s reactive rather than simply reproduced.

[near scroll]

that's untrue though, the decisions you made up to that point in your life technically counts as affecting the outcome lol, if you have practiced and trained your brain and body that will affect the outcome, and same for if you didn't

[near scroll]

ah, i understand your point regarding random recoil now. however my point is why have recoil at all lol

[indigo nexus]

I’m not sure it makes sense to call that untrue, but your point is a good one.

I think I don’t consider the rest of my life when extracting emotions from gameplay.

(Not that I understand that process well to begin with)

[near scroll]

i agree learning a recoil pattern is not the most fun for me either. it's very much a "honer" activity, where "feeling" your growth is the main appeal, as there are no outside variables impacting your inputs

[near scroll]

yeah i was playing devil's advocate, it is indeed not necessarily untrue, mostly a matter of perspective and beliefs. it's very hard to factually talk about consciousness

[indigo nexus]

It’s a really useful balance tool, and can be actively engaging as it gives you a thing to focus on.

You can make a weapon feel very different to another even if they have about the same full-auto range performance, thanks to recoil, and feelings regarding gunplay do matter!

[near scroll]

i agree gunplay is hard to quantify, it's a very "feels" based feedback, but personally i think random recoil and especially visual recoil never help guns feel better

[indigo nexus]

An example I like is the FAL from battlebit remastered. It has the most horizontal recoil in the game, but can be used well like a DMR and as a CQC shredder, suffering at close->mid range, and I really like that dynamic, which wouldn’t be possible without it.

(One of my favourite guns in that game)

[near scroll]

well, maybe feel better to shoot at a stationary target, but not feel better to try and outplay opponents with

fighting my gun harder than i'm fighting my opponent does not make me feel good

[indigo nexus]

Visual recoil I don’t like. Bullets should always go to the reticule

But that’s not for much of a philosophical reason as it is, I just don’t like the conflicting feeling it gives with regards to what your weapon is doing

[near scroll]

may i ask where you're from? i know it's random but im pretty sure reticle doesnt have an U in it

[indigo nexus]

UK

[near scroll]

oh is it a UK vs US thing?

[indigo nexus]

Maybe. Wikipedia lists both names but doesn’t distinguish via country.

[near scroll]

interesting. anyways, thanks for answering :)

[indigo nexus]

“Reticule” is how I pronounce it, and that’s not easy to change

[near scroll]

fair enough haha

i know in practice there would definitely be issues with it but the way i'd like to personally handle recoil in a hypothetical game is that at least for slower firing weapons the recoil is done by the time the next shot is ready. not sure how well that'd work with auto guns tho

i'm saying conceptually, in terms of what i value that's what i'd do

it'd add flavour, it'd add unwieldiness, but it would minimally affect aim

[indigo nexus]

I've never made a proper recoil system so I don't have a great understanding of how it feels. But I think recoil should definitely be applied in its entirety before the next shot

[near scroll]

it's true come to think of it i don't assume any game does otherwise

[indigo nexus]

My current idea, after I'm done with my current project, will be to make some sort of shooter game, but how that will play out I don't know. The recoil will hopefully be similar to how it is in battlebit, but I'm not sure. May not be PvP.

[unkempt moss]

Let me know if you need help putting some fun ideas in it

[near scroll]

but yeah as an example, i'd like for revolver's recoil animation to be done and reset by the time next shot is ready, so no more visual bounciness on the gun model, and your crosshair has already reset to where it should be

i don't like that if you wanna fire revolver ADS'd at full speed you're basically gonna be staring at your hands cuz of recoil

[indigo nexus]

the revolver recoil I am not really a fan of how it works since it's so visual, I don't like the idea of the gun appearing to jolt away but then returning without your input, because I try to naturally compensate for it myself. I think that sort of thing is why I struggle so much with the LH1 / Pike, it tricks me into constantly overshooting or something when trying to control it

[near scroll]

i think what it comes down to is that i value predictability. both players should know what they're getting each other into and what's gonna happen, so that they can prepare for it

[near scroll]

same. whenever i play revolver i'm nearly only hipfiring and doing good, but the second i start ADSing it all crumbles

[unkempt moss]

Would you rather have to recenter your gun for each shot?

[indigo nexus]

Yes. If the gun doesn't need to be moved then I think it should not be moved on your screen.

[near scroll]

personally i'd much rather have it that way. visual recoil is done before next shot is ready but your crosshair has moved and needs readjusting

[unkempt moss]

I agree with that.

Its more like real shooting if done that way.

[near scroll]

agreed

you are gonna instinctively focus on your sight again IRL, but your arms would've moved, thus needing adjustment to stay on target

[unkempt moss]

But, the favorite argument is that the game isnt meant to be realistic.

[dreamy frigate]

And what do you think about goo ?

[near scroll]

sure, but if drawing from realism means better gameplay there's no reason not to implement it imo

[near scroll]

haven't you read the nametags? i think you can tell :)

[unkempt moss]

Its the single most unique thing about the finals and should be protected at all costs.

[dreamy frigate]

That’s the joke 🙂

[indigo nexus]

but every game should be as intuitive as possible, within the world in which it takes place.

[near scroll]

agreed. amen brother

[dreamy frigate]

👌🏼

[unkempt moss]

Im with you.

[indigo nexus]

(thank god for arc raiders not using hitmarkers and all that nonsense, makes fights so much cooler. This is totally unrelated in hindsight so I'm not sure why I typed it out)

[unkempt moss]

Its funny, Arc raiders is way more casual of a game but far more satisfying and competent of a shooter.

[near scroll]

no hurt in expressing your opinions

[near scroll]

nahhhhhhhhh no way you guys are saying that 😭
third person stalemate fights are good gunfights?

[indigo nexus]

Well, I think a lot of people would complain if they took the arc raiders approach to gun interactions into THE FINALS. Not me, but a lot.

[near scroll]

what is it that you guys prefer in arc's gunplay? like what gun interactions are u talking about im confused

[unkempt moss]

I think its the fully projectile part of it tbh

[near scroll]

that's fair. i've played Apex Legends as my main FPS before the finals and that is one ting i miss

[indigo nexus]

I like how with all the smoke and stuff you can end up not being able to clearly see what's going on while unloading a mag into something, and how you may have to tell if you hit maybe based on audio or particle effects. I like that they're not afraid to use dispersion and unpredictable recoil as balance mechanisms. I like all the weapons being projectile guns.

[near scroll]

beaming padding octanes with an AR that's fully projectile feels very very good

[unkempt moss]

I think projectile fixes a lot of the problems of the finals. I dont particularly think theres a lot of skill to hitscan.

[near scroll]

that's funny cause those are the things i dislike about arc LOL, spraying a guy and not being able to see him by the 5th shot of my bettina cause that shit produces so much smoke at the muzzle is not fun to me 😭

i do like the audio based feedback on hits, but i don't think it fits the finals. it's very good design for arc tho!

[indigo nexus]

Also, a little tangential, kills being signified by a distress flare rather than a kill message of some kind is genius game design

[near scroll]

im still conflicted on that cause it incentivizes third partying and stuff

[indigo nexus]

I wonder if that's inspired by something else, or if embark invented that mechanic

[indigo nexus]

Well, it's quite supposed to, but ignoring that I think it's great. Just visually.

Fighting is already very dangerous in arc and most players are still eager for it, it doesn't need to be made any less of a risk

[near scroll]

yeah but the current design incentivizes snowball fights where even if the guy that won the fight was attacked first while minding his own business, he now has to deal with more threats as he's down resources and has valuables to loot, and it keeps going and going and everyone dies in the same spot of the map (exaggerating but yknow what i mean)

[muted condor]

That’s whey I love the Torrente on Stella Montis
No one gets to see what’s happening and everyone gets defend

[indigo nexus]

Haha, yeah, makes the game more punishing. I wouldn't trade away that tension though.

[near scroll]

i wonder if having the flare only pop up when a raider is actually killed instead of when they're downed could be cool

[near scroll]

at the end of the day i think my grievance with Arc pvp is that with it's fast TTK and third person camera, getting the drop on someone is insanely valuable and often a free kill, which feels bad when you're a gamer that wants to explore the map and participate in more activities than getting to a high traffic area and camping

[serene glade]

I wonder if the flare was added when it was pve only or when pvp was in. Because iirc the plan was to just be pve, so the raider flares were probably more like "this fella over here needs my help"

[indigo nexus]

That's why I don't so much like the solos gameplay, not my thing

[muted condor]

I like it because it brings more people to me when I drop someone

[near scroll]

i agree it's significantly worse in solos (my duo doesnt wanna play arc anymore and no way im playing fill lobbies 😭) but it's still a factor in teams

[indigo nexus]

In friendly lobbies you will just rarely die in a fairly unpredictable way, and in more violent ones... may as well play a game like hunt showdown or something (which I have never played, I'm just guessing it's better designed for that dynamic :p)

[near scroll]

it is, hunt is like a hybrid battle royale / extraction shooter, and i really like it for that, the pacing is still slower like an extraction shooter but the objectives in the game push you to have more structured and expected fight locations, like a battle royale

also ngl coming from hunt showdown and playing arc raiders makes me feel deaf

audio in that game is quite mediocre, which is a shame as i think good audio makes "openworld" FPS games significantly more fun

hearing sprinting footsteps in hunt as you're in a building dealing with zombies or w.e is a great way to inform both teams of each other's whereabouts without giving their position away, while building tension

[serene glade]

Hunt made me never wanna play extraction shooters. The pve isn't noticeable and it takes like 15-20 minutes from death screen to get back into action, and there's no real reason to extract. It took me a while before I would even try arc, but glad I finally did

[near scroll]

that's a very good question btw, i'm curious what's the answer

[indigo nexus]

The sounds are really good in arc raiders, but their interaction with the environment does need work.

[near scroll]

the PvE isn't meant to kill a fully kitted player in hunt, it's meant to setup fights and give info, as well as potentially finish off a wounded low on resources hunter

[near scroll]

playing hunt showdown you straight up feel like you have ultrasound detection or w.e, i can hear a guy step and know what side of a building he's on as well as which floor, and have an estimate as to how close he is
it's soooo goood

[muted condor]

Speaking of fully kitted players that’s my biggest complaint with arc raiders

[near scroll]

also level design is insanely good, with most building having different materials for floors, which makes footsteps unique depending on the surface
like a plaque of sheet metal near an important doorway or window, to alert enemies of your spot and balance the spot's risk/reward

[muted condor]

The high end loot is completely dog shit and there no reason to take expensive stuff ever

[near scroll]

i agree, but considering how easy SOME of this stuff is to get idk

[indigo nexus]

I disagree, but it probably needs to be a bit better / more valuable than it currently is

[muted condor]

Most the purple weapons are straight up worse than the blue weapons and don’t get me started on how trash the experimental weapons are

[near scroll]

like blueprints is the big gatekeeper there, the materials themselves are not too bad to get, but if you haven't rolled the BP yet well what are you gonna do about it

[indigo nexus]

The legendaries are good for PvE, it would be nice if they were a little better for PvP

[near scroll]

bro equalizer is a laser minigun, how is that not deadly to people

[muted condor]

You need epic crafting materials and a queen core to craft a weapon that is less efficient at killing arc than just taking a stack of grenades that cost half a dollar and a gum wrapper

[near scroll]

btw i know it's crazy to ask but i'd like an augment that has a passive where when you get shot while your weapon is stowed, you get damage resistance for a moment, to minimize first shot advantage

help carefree empty brained raiders like me not die cuz some guy decided i needed to die

[muted condor]

The grenades are better for pve than the dedicated pve weapons

[near scroll]

true, only exception is queen & matriarch

[indigo nexus]

I think this is a very skewed outlook on it... legendaries aren't actually that hard to craft or supply, you would need enough wolfpacks to match their total usefulness that I don't think that comparison makes sense

[muted condor]

Even then if you’re farming queen and matriarch parts you can just take some grenades, smokes, and a cloak to blow some armor off then leave

[near scroll]

that is very true. strange to me how queen cores can drop before the queen dies

[muted condor]

The bad PvE design and weapon balance is kinda why I just started going PvP now

[near scroll]

do you pvp in a squad

[muted condor]

And if you do happen to kill it 3/4 of the loot gets stolen by 15 free kits that’s didn’t even help

Kill is less effective than just looting the dropped armor

[muted condor]

Mainly solo. When I’m playing with friends they are usually doing missions or expedition and I just protect them

I’m really looking forward to the Marathon release because it’s much more PvP oriented and the fan base is way better

[slow linden]

I agree hitscan also keeps minigun and shotguns from being a little stronger

*some shotguns

[near scroll]

oh really? i tried solo pvp but find it quite underwhelming compared to good teamfights

[near scroll]

kinda same, i hope it will have good quests, including ones to kill people with certain gear (like tarkov)

[neat bolt]

Can we get like a

Kunai throwing knives skin

[near scroll]

i think having pvp quests to work towards that keep progress between deaths is a good way to reduce gear fear and incentivizing "chad pvp" behaviour where people willingly walk around looking for a fight instead of camping a high tr1ffic area

[muted condor]

Just have to go to the right places. I usually go Stella montis and run around medical and the surrounding hallways or control tower on dam

[near scroll]

why want kunai when we have utensils and playing cards

[near scroll]

i suppose i will, but i still prefer the more "organized" 3v3 matches, less likely to get third partied and significantly less likely to get 4th, 5th, 6th parties

[muted condor]

That makes sense. I don’t plan on extracting when I go in for pvp so that doesn’t matter to me

If I survive that’s cool but not the goal

[neat bolt]

Because kunais are cool as fuck and I wanna throw them

[muted condor]

Isn’t that literally what the base skin is?

[near scroll]

fair enough. so do you loot with your team and spend it all on solo pvp? haha, for me it was the opposite

[muted condor]

I do looting runs every now and then and make it out with massive hauls when I do survive

[noble saddle]

So updating my hero loadouts that I will tier off fun and effectiveness solo queue unranked cashout, in case any of y'all enjoy the game the same way and like playing weird kits

S Tier (very fun and very effective)

• AKM, Medbeam, Goo Grenade, Jump Pad

• Riot Shield, Turret, Flash Genade, Breach Drill, Frag Grenade

• Matter, Evasive Dash, Flash Grenade, Gas Grenade, Breach Charge

A Tier: Very fun, still strong but can be more inconsistent than the S tiers in an average lobby

• Revolver/Cerberus depending on the vibe, Demat, Goo Grenade, Pyro Grenade, Glitch Trap

• CL40, Demat, Data Reshaper, Zipline, Jump Pad

• Model, Demat, Jump Pad, Mine, Frag

• Pike, Turret, Motion Sensor, Zipline, Defib

A- Tier not as fun but decently stable. Fun I have with these builds are carried by the costumes I have for them

• 93r, Cloak, Gateway, H+, Sonar Grenade

• SHAK, Mesh, Dome, RPG, Anti Grav

This game just too fun to mess around with

[glossy marsh]

yo guys im new here and wantd to know if you have any idea who i could talk to about some new animations for the P9S

[sudden pewter]

Nobody. You can leave a suggestion in #👂┇game-feedback

[chilly granite]

S1mple says your wrong, he went from winning a 1v1
Aim tournament to winning comp tournaments in 1v5 scenarios is like 4 months

[chilly granite]

Muscle memory is a myth, it's just memory applied by brain to your arm

[indigo nexus]

Sure, but it doesn't make a difference either way

[chilly granite]

This is correct

[chilly granite]

Why did the make the ks23 start hitscan? I feel like embark Devs hat making anything a projectile

[chilly granite]

It made a difference in the context I saw but then like 2 messages later you said you don't feel in control of your subconscious which renders it a moot point lol

I do think that's a wild take though

My subconscious is very obviously a reflection of my conscious mind and the effort I put it

When I do aim training I'm consciously thinking about my aiming and then when I focus on other things I can see my subconscious is taking the lessons I learned from conscious practice and applying them

And my subconscious decisions are not in breach of my own sense of logic and priorities

[indigo nexus]

Well, it does things for me and is definitely a reflection in a sense. I just don't get anything out of that, and would rather not be evaluated based off of it.

maybe the concept of pride comes into this?

If you took pride in something you had gotten your subconsciousness to improve on in that way, it'd make sense

[chilly granite]

yeah I think that's the typical angle, in aim trainers and such, you're reprogramming your subconscious to perform the actions you want it to

but conscious thought is an element too

like in cs1.6, there are two spray patterns, left and right

you need to observe which one is happening and then control recoil for it, rather than relying on simple repetition

[tepid bramble]

/ argent

[chilly granite]

man appoh is full of l takes

bow buff wasn't needed becuase if you had excellent gamesense it was playable in cashut

meanwhile if it takes more than 2s to get line of sight/delete a dome shield, you can't kill a heavy fast enough with 1 headshots to defend box in point break

also I think he's misunderstood the rpm change as being a change to the draw time, when it's a change to the reload time

meanwhile lowering the skill floor is just nice to casuals who want to play bow but aren't sweaty enough to actually be good, and the skill ceiling is still high and the bow almost certainly isn't op anyway

lowering skill floor in ways that don't affect skill ceiling are just good

[sand monolith]

Yeah his take on the bow was very odd

[chilly granite]

supposedly he's a bow enjoyer and he wants it to be gatekept and crap?

sounds like someone who just wants his special toy for him only

a true bow user shares the love

I'm not sure how much of the change was because of point break but I sent them a video of me failing to kill a heavy solo stealing the box in front of me wihtout even a dome shield because I couldn't get a headshot angle on him lmao

the bow needed a dps increase for point break for sure

[sand monolith]

He never says it but he insinuates that the bow when used at its peak is a dominant / meta tier weapon

Which I think is unbelievably wrong

It’s so much more effort for worse results than you’d get by using other light weapons

[serene glade]

Appoh seems like a loser tbf

[sand monolith]

No he’s a cool guy he’s super nice

I just don’t agree with a lot of his takes

[serene glade]

Yeah that seals that for me

[sand monolith]

True #killallnicepeople

[muted condor]

Is he a streamer or esports player?

[sand monolith]

Esports coach and content creator

[muted condor]

🖕

#killallesportssuporters

[indigo nexus]

#...maybe...don't?

[noble saddle]

Balancing weapons shouldn't be about viableness necessarily it should just be is the weapon satisfying to use for the demographic it's trying to be meant for and from what I understand every bow user thinks it's way too punishing for mistakes and not rewarding enough for skill.

To me, that means that bow should likely get some sort of change to its numbers to make it feel satisfying to play.

In a game that has punchy marksman hitscan guns, unless if shields become insane they will always be the meta choices.

Other weapons don't need to be buffed to match that, other weapons just need to be buffed so they are satisfying to play by the people who want to use them.

[chilly granite]

good take

tbh I really don't think reapeater/bfr fit in the finals, they're basically identical to scout in csgo

and csgo's weapon balanceing is entirely different from the finals, so putting a scout in the finals' weapon mix is gonna be crazy op

[spiral hound]

Which weapons are not pure hitscan?

I'm asking because I'm surprised to learn that the repeater and the titan are both hitscan, i'd have assumed them to be projectiles.

[muted condor]

Esports = scum

[chilly granite]

ks23, sr84, bow, cl40, mgl, tks

[spiral hound]

Thank you

[serene glade]

wish they would try making one of the medium ARs full projectile and see how it feels, but i just dont ever see that happening

[chilly granite]

tbh I think it's better on an smg first

cqb is less punished by projectile

and p90 sucks to play against as a pleb

[chilly granite]

a lot, a LOT of his takes are agresively sweatlord-pilled

like his opinionos make a lot more sense in a world wehre everyone is nolifing the game

[unkempt moss]

Nice isn't an excuse for dogass takes. I will find him... and i will...

Down vote his comments

[stoic garden]

appoh when i dont play charge and slam ks23 in the grand majors:

[serene glade]

i mean isnt he the one who basically got the channel flooded with people begging for sword nerfs (albeit based to use your community like that)

[muted condor]

We should jump him

[serene glade]

pipey?

[chilly granite]

not everone has the time or ability to llearn how to position perfectly to abuse the bow, and making it easier for them wihtout making the bow op, or reducing the skill ceiling, is just a good thing

but if you're in a world where everyone you know plays 18 hours a day and nobody has a disability that affects their abilities, learning the bow seems like a trivial thing and isn't a big deal, so it seems like a pointless buff

I got arthritus and while it doesn't generally impact my ability to play, holding down the mouse or spam clicking for bow/v9s respectively is often painful

[stoic garden]

i will pipe you full of goo

[chilly granite]

so being able to hold the mouse down less duration is a nice quality of life for me

[unkempt moss]

Why not both

[chilly granite]

don't threaten me with a good time

[stoic garden]

day 2300 of waiting for embark to add full auto accessibility option for semi autos

no wait that would make v9s even more mainstream

uhhh kill v9s

[chilly granite]

yeah I litearlly said, if they're giving aim assist to controller players they should give autoclicker for cripples like me

and tbh it's easier to blaance semiautos if there's the expectation that they are to be fired at full speed

and there's an inherent advantage to tap firing so skilled players will do so

recoil control, ammo efficency

[slow linden]

Full auto is brainless

[stoic garden]

why

[slow linden]

Hitscan

I am often pretty mediocre with what I usually choose to use and yet I always frag out with automatics even some of the worse automatics ,even a bad automatic is much easier to use than a semi or gimmick or melee weapon

I predict hitscan just kinda makes automatics too easy to use Regardless of where they end up in the meta

Would rather they be projectile

Shotguns should also be projectile,everything should be projectile

[serene glade]

not only does it make it easy, it makes it feel boring. every automatic feels the exact same to me

[alpine ledge]

That invis ball gotta go or sum ppl already be running enough ts sad you start killing ppl they instantly switch to lights pistol and invis

[muted condor]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/714245295659024397/1251977229378781275/Card.gif

[sudden pewter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1009830578545246213/1433161673136541727/heist.gif

[muted condor]

Wait a second

[sudden pewter]

Seconds up, back to the killing zone

[muted condor]

Is that my stats?

[sudden pewter]

Perhaps

I just saw we were bullying someone and hopped in because I smelled blood in the water

[muted condor]

No way this mf held onto a screenshot of my stats for months after I posted it just to do that

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/rudy-marcin-maksiusiu-cat-silly-gif-14295700209675674791

[muted condor]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1214600682972254259/1462166633085931693/Arachne.gif

[candid plank]

https://tenor.com/view/hyperventilate-cant-breathe-hyperventilation-sheldon-cooper-gif-3510677630357883825

[rough beacon]

lol

[neat bolt]

For the season thats supposed to be medieval themed, I hope we get new melee weapons to use

Like a spiked flail for light class, an axe for medium, maybe a lance for the heavy,

[slow linden]

Uninstall

[final lotus]

Glitch buff wasn't necessary

Imo they should keep the ammo count nerf and revert the cooldown buff

[candid plank]

no

[sudden pewter]

There is no information about such a season atm. Likely speculation

And melee as a whole is being reworked, I don’t want to see any more melee weapons until the issues with the weapon type is addressed

[novel copper]

In my game it felt like the arn did more damage than the usual

[alpine ledge]

Uninstall your life

[slow linden]

Couldn't if I wanted to,I must be here

[serene glade]

god damn gucci , louis, 3 box logo

[alpine ledge]

Most definitely could 🤣make a move anyway

[young pewter]

make a move away 🤣

[slow linden]

Nah,I am a law

[young pewter]

how do you spell lucky wrong

[alpine ledge]

You a nobody 🤣

[slow linden]

I am more than you,if I'm nobody then who are you?

[alpine ledge]

Do sum productive w ya life

[young pewter]

ok
you're here too

[serene glade]

@alpine ledge curious how youd feel if you didnt have breakfast this morning

[unkempt moss]

I'm about to hit a light with 11 different options from prowler stance no kizzy

[serene glade]

yeah in march dumbass

[slow linden]

Babylon destroys Babylon

[young pewter]

burn baby burn

that reference is going to get got is it

[unkempt moss]

March 17 is too long

[serene glade]

2 months away is insane no cap

[unkempt moss]

We have to play this dogshit for two more months?

Do NOT drop the trailer this early if you aren't releasing him in February

[serene glade]

ingrid is late spring, so shes gotta be like may/june right?

happygolucky better not be eating breakfast rn

[unkempt moss]

Doesn't matter. She's late to saving the genre.

Guaranteed Alex gets nerfed before evo

[serene glade]

grapplers are like winch claw bud, nobody likes getting yoinked

[peak monolith]

I know I'm gonna get flamed but tracking dart for Medium? It's probably OP but I need someone to explain why

[young pewter]

og tracking dart 🥺

[unkempt moss]

They expose dogass players for bad spacing?

Hm. Do feel like that.

[peak monolith]

Actual dumb idea that deserves flaming:
Give medium a longbow and heavy a crossbow so that all classes get arrows

[slow linden]

Possible

[unkempt moss]

Give heavy a dragonslayer great bow not a whack ass crossbow.

Medium can have the crossbow

[slow linden]

Give heavy egon's greatbow

[unkempt moss]

Ewww elden ring?

[slow linden]

Get good

Get you a strength faith glass cannon build or no funny organs

[unkempt moss]

Please. Elden Ring isnt anything special. The dodge window of the souls genre is insane.

[slow linden]

I beat bloodborne do not act as I don't know

[unkempt moss]

Are soulsborne really the bar for difficulty these days?

[serene glade]

Josh has beaten bloodborne

[analog pewter]

METEOR HAMMER
NOW.

[unkempt moss]

Bloodborne stocks way down

[slow linden]

Difficulty is not my appeal to those games,it's the cool magic and the pvp and cool bosses

[unkempt moss]

You told me to get good and do some buns ass build. You're a difficulty chud for sure.

[slow linden]

Strength faith is my favorite kind of build

[unkempt moss]

I play the same build since Demonsouls. Sword and board, fluted helmet.

[slow linden]

I use summons and all the flashy shit,I'm not one of those rusty spatula no hit run builds

Anything goofy or cool looking ill use it regardless of whether it's good or not

[unkempt moss]

I just smack with sword and fight boss.

Monster Hunter is the far superior series anyway.

[slow linden]

I use big weapon and bonk boss or I throw big fire or lightning or boulders or dragon spells

[unkempt moss]

Big weapon smack force of nature will always beat high fantasy.

[slow linden]

Elden ring has a giant motorized pizza cutter

[unkempt moss]

Yeah they stole that from monster hunter.

[neat bolt]

I think a while ago they said they were planning on doing something medieval themed

[unkempt moss]

Brothers never played charge blade. Crazy

[neat bolt]

Im HOPING its a season since we seem to be following a theme of different cultures

We already had Japanese, Chinese, Hispanic

[sudden pewter]

No.

[neat bolt]

Different time periods too, past, modern, futuristic

[sudden pewter]

You may be referring to the Reddit AMA stream where they said (in response to medieval question iirc) “we’re adding a Viking cosmetic”

[neat bolt]

OK bro

[sudden pewter]

Nothing Medieval on the docket, sorry to say

[neat bolt]

Im still holding out that we get a medieval season

[serene glade]

I want a season in rural Kansas. Medieval sounds lame

[neat bolt]

I wanna see knights n shit beating the fuck outta each other

[sudden pewter]

I need more fantasy China where the buildings aren’t made from styrofoam and the air is breathable and not a smoggy breathing hazard

[unkempt moss]

Can I get some green overalls off the shoulder with no shirt in that season?

[slow linden]

I play charge blade and gunlance and both the bowguns

[unkempt moss]

Yeeeeuck

[sudden pewter]

Waiter! Waiter! Bare feet please!

[neat bolt]

You corndog medieval sounds cool as hell wdym lame

[unkempt moss]

MMO weapon, inferior lance, and bowgun??

[slow linden]

What do you play

[neat bolt]

Its swords and armor and dragons n hand to hand combat

Not to mention BIG CASTLE

[serene glade]

Farming and agriculture is way more exciting than this corn dog shit you are saying

[neat bolt]

Lay seige to a fortress

[sudden pewter]

Embark isn’t capable of balancing melee weapons currently, I wouldn’t hold out any hope for anything medieval until maybe S11 or beyond

[neat bolt]

Storm the castle gates whilst dodging arrows raining down

[unkempt moss]

Lance and Greatsword, the only correct answer. I would have also accepted hammer/horn or SnS.

[neat bolt]

Capture the flag

[serene glade]

Hunting horn new medium weapon?

[unkempt moss]

Can we get a corn dog hammer skin?

[neat bolt]

Metal clanging and fire burning

[serene glade]

Embark keeps making me fat

[slow linden]

Embark will never get anything other than ars and smgs right,and even then they should be projectile rather than hitscan

[serene glade]

The more I hear of the ideas of a medieval season the less I want it

[unkempt moss]

You sound like you play Insect Glaive and Switch Axe(only in rise)

[slow linden]

Ballista for heavy

[serene glade]

Insect glaive is sick cmon now

[unkempt moss]

Probably have an absolutely busted horn build for Omega.

[unkempt moss]

Of course. Let the boy harvest your essence.

[novel copper]

Did the arn get buffed or am i just schizophrenic?

[slow linden]

It's alright,I'm too lazy to use it because it's the only weapon that requires you to play the game

[unkempt moss]

Drywall, you can play whatever you want. Its just my job as a GS elitist to say whatever you plays is whack.

[slow linden]

Gunlance is not wack

Gunlance is cool and has fun combos

With cool explosions and pretty lights

[sudden pewter]

I like the aesthetic, I’m all for European plate armor

[slow linden]

Bowguns are only worth a shit in the newest game

[unkempt moss]

Its aight. Lance is more fun to play though

[sudden pewter]

But gamemodes? Melee weapons? Pass. Fuck that

[unkempt moss]

Why not game modes?

[slow linden]

And charge blade is pretty cool but I like Gunlance more

[slow linden]

I dabble but I like my kaboom and harpoon more

[unkempt moss]

Charge blade is fun but I dont really like being railroaded in to a certain rotation.

[slow linden]

Fair enough

[unkempt moss]

I wish the Gunlance had a little my dynamic of a standard moveset. It doesnt feel as fluid as lance, but the ammo part is fun. It'll get there.

[slow linden]

I feel like it's a lot less clunky in the newest game

[unkempt moss]

Oh for sure.

But the lance also got an absolutely insane set of moves that just took it to the next level.

[slow linden]

I also play a lot of hammer,specifically the one that looks like a cage on a stick and only that one

[unkempt moss]

I started on Gunlance in 3, but moved to Lance main in 4.

[sudden pewter]

It would have to be something wholly unique and once again I have to pull the “Shitty track record” card because Embarks flagship new addition in S9 (PointBreak) has 0 testing because it was unplayable day one due to exploits

[unkempt moss]

They need to add the rocket seltas hammer.

[slow linden]

Yea

[unkempt moss]

Its not fair to checkmate every conversation using embarks incompetence. You are banned from using the instawin button from now on.

[unkempt moss]

You should play Horn. Its like hammer but with more to do.

[sudden pewter]

(Me pulling the Lights ruin everything gun from my pocket)

[unkempt moss]

You can use instawin buttons i agree with.

[slow linden]

This is a place of joy and speculation not doom and gloom

[slow linden]

Kill all lights except dagger and dB lights

[slow linden]

Haven't seen a horn variant I like or want to grind for

Asthetically at least

[slow linden]

Probably both knowing embark

[unkempt moss]

Thats wild to me tbh. The horn has some of the best designs.

[slow linden]

I just haven't found one that clicks with me,moves are cool but haven't found one that looks cool

[unkempt moss]

Missing out. Hopefully when you find one you like it has great songs.

[serene glade]

Someone say rathian horn for the omega fight?

[unkempt moss]

Thank you thank you thank you

Me as each buff is applied

Catter better come up with a unique mode right now.

And he cannot say not my job.

[serene glade]

It should have new mechanics for potential weapon reworks and then never get touched or added to the main game mode ever

[unkempt moss]

Im so excited for the juxtaposition of Alex trailer releasing and the worst mid-season patch we've ever seen tomorrow.

The peaks and valleys of this week are insane.

[slow linden]

Embark would fire him because at least he would try to do his job

[serene glade]

Oh I forgot its finals Christmas night. Getting to wake up to a new patch in my stocking

(it's coal)

[slow linden]

(Sometimes it's coal,but its usually petrified cow shit)

[serene glade]

It's normally just empty these days

[slow linden]

True

[sudden pewter]

You’re getting yet another retro callback texture swap weapon skin

[serene glade]

Yipee, I'm forever grateful. Another ultimate battle pass purchase is heading embarks way

[sudden pewter]

We had roller rink carpet, laser tag walls, this time you’re getting those jazzy paper cups!

Oh, and more white girl cosmetics

[slow linden]

Waiter waiter more whimsical skins for sledgehammer instead of un-neutering the damn thing

[serene glade]

We were running low!

[slow linden]

If no white girl finals music me no want white girl clothes

[sudden pewter]

I so desperately want to be optimistic for the games future. It’s not like it’s going to die anytime soon but if we’re just due for more of the same lackluster balance I don’t have anything to be excited for beyond “Oh boy new Battlepass”

[unkempt moss]

YOU. Unique mode. Now.

[sudden pewter]

LTM or mainstay?

[serene glade]

There's nothing even good in this new battle pass it feels like. Even their golden goose battle pass is struggling

[sudden pewter]

Erm, did you not see the new unusual effects??? There’s gold dust on your shoulders??? Privileged much??? Standard gamers smh
Oh my sweet child
Hold up, let’s unpack this
You’re expecting what? For +$15 on top of the standard BP??

[slow linden]

The bao launcher,the cerb and flamethrower skins

[unkempt moss]

Mainstay

[slow linden]

That's about it

[serene glade]

Bao was cool until I shot it and realized it doesn't shoot actual buns

[sudden pewter]

Gimme a sec, I had a few ideas and I wrote them down somewhere

[serene glade]

They should add duck duck goose to mainstay where you just play normal ass duck duck goose. And then sharks and minnows is the new ranked mode

[unkempt moss]

Okay

[slow linden]

Shoots like little racks of buns no?

[serene glade]

I'm pretty positive it just shoots normal ass grenades

[slow linden]

Swear I saw it shoot bao but to be fair it's the only gl skin with alternate ammo models

Apart from the sour core cl40

[sudden pewter]

KOTH. But it’s on a unique arena where the geometry is indestructible but shifts according to a timer.

• Physical objects as OBJ’s have proven problematic because they’re prone to manipulation, as seen in PB.
• Destroying buildings to clear the arena can prevent attackers from approaching without expending valuable utilities which give defenders an advantage.
  So my plan is to:
• Make the OBJ a “zone” or area of influence opposed to an actual object.
• Regen/Randomize the arena to prevent turtling or poor plays to clear the area.
  If some dumbass starts spamming gas to prevent the enemy from capping, it also prevents them from holding.

@unkempt moss Thoughts?

[unkempt moss]

How big would the capture areas be?

[slow linden]

Big team battle with tanks n shit wait wrong game mb

[unkempt moss]

I like it because it feels like all the builds can shine in that

[sudden pewter]

Roughly the size of the Mammoth Skull room in Museum.

It’s large enough to act as a miniature arena on its own, large enough for mid range weapons to be viable, but intimate enough to allow CQC plays

[unkempt moss]

Okay. I think it works pretty well tbh. It's also immediately understandable.

Team sizes?

[slow linden]

Sys horizon kinda mid map

[unkempt moss]

You've thought through the immediate issues it would have as well

[sudden pewter]

I really adore the chaos of 8v8. I’m not a fan of smaller team sizes because each player is forced to carry more weight, in 8v8 you can have 3 lights throwing shit at eachother and still win because there’s 5 competent players but in 3v3 if even one person has an off day they’re less useful

[unkempt moss]

Hm. I feel 5v5 might be better but its your mode.

[sudden pewter]

I’m also unsure how this theoretical gamemode would handle spawns, as once a side has control of the zone what’s stopping them from just pushing ground to hold players off at a spawn zone? It would need to be somewhat randomized, which could also affect team cohesion

Players “dribbling in” opposed to making actual pushes with numbers behind them can be frustrating

Especially with limited lives via coins

[unkempt moss]

I'm trying to think of how to best work that.

[slow linden]

Yea

Sys horizon is just poke central

[sudden pewter]

My only qualm with an indestructible arena is it would lower the value of destructive utilities like RPG/C&S. (Beyond damage ofc) But perhaps having specific structures that are clearly indicated as destructible but provide powerful positions could be a compromise?

[unkempt moss]

I feel like random is the only way. Random wave spawns?

[sudden pewter]

Wave spawns could work in theory, but if the team sizes are smaller they’re less coordinated unless it’s a wipe

[unkempt moss]

I was thinking with 8v8.

[sudden pewter]

Especially based on map size

In a perfect world this gamemode would be able to be retrofitted on existing maps, but beyond specifically the aforementioned Museum I can’t think of any

Maybe the hallway of hospital? But that has its own issues. And a single map for a unique gamemode doesn’t seem like something embark would endorse outside an LTM

[unkempt moss]

The spots could have a timer on them, and if you're in control it gives you points. Shifts to different areas in a round. So the destruction doesnt matter as much?

[sudden pewter]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of just having regenerating structures opposed to indestructible structures. That way destruction utilities can keep their power but easy destructive spam like the MGL are limited. Nothing is stopping them from spamming a certain spot, but they can’t shoot everywhere at once without putting themselves at risk

If a team times a push through a wall via C4 or breaching charge or the stupid fucking god damn drill, that would be pog.

I don’t want to completely cut out ways to play

[unkempt moss]

How long is the regen on the stadium?

[sudden pewter]

Perhaps having individual pieces have their own timer would be the silver bullet, opposed to whole buildings?

If I had to pull a number out of my ass, 20s. Heavies regen from near death is 16s, which is pretty long and the +4s would allow some wiggle room

[unkempt moss]

It woild need to work like horizon where walls just disappear instead of being a cluster fuck.

[sudden pewter]

Rubble is annoying, yeah

[unkempt moss]

Plus the regen would mean more rubble than previously possible.

[sudden pewter]

All my homies HATE rubble. (Post made by sledgehammer gang)

[unkempt moss]

I like the idea a lot.

[slender fiber]

I don't really think rounds stay in the same place long enough or are long enough for regenerating structures to matter without them being incredibly annoying and making the destruction mechanics really bad

[slow linden]

I like cheesing people around rubble with my flamethrower

[sudden pewter]

This would be taking place on a smaller arena unique to the gamemode, but I agree it may be too different to what players expect

[unkempt moss]

I'd actually play it unlike tdm

[sudden pewter]

I love TDM

I just go in expecting to lose, even if I perform well

[slender fiber]

yeah In a smaller game mode it could work tbh, I just think the regular modes' balance of moving around the map and fucking places up is about perfect

[sudden pewter]

That’s what I tried to address with this theoretical KOTH.

[slender fiber]

I've never been a fan of tdm I always prefer objective based modes

[sudden pewter]

I like TDM for its simplicity, but overall I prefer OBJ’s myself

[slender fiber]

you could also make the hill be in the middle of an incredibly dense structure

[sudden pewter]

So I figured the best median would be larger teams (5 or 8) where kills still tied to the objective (controlling the zone) but weren’t the main focus

[slender fiber]

I think it would be sick if there was an almost completely indoors and CQC map like battlefield 1 fort Vaux in the finals

[unkempt moss]

I always play obj over elim modes.

[sudden pewter]

But due to the OBJ being a zone, I wouldn’t want Heavy to be the instalock choice due to their defensive and destructive capabilities

[unkempt moss]

Except pilot v pilot. I like that

[sudden pewter]

If structures regenerated, Lights would have cover to play around without being instagibbed

[slender fiber]

fuck it make a map set in WW1 for the finals

[sudden pewter]

Trenches would go hard

[slender fiber]

in like a fort or something with a trench section

and they can add the chauchat so the Lewis gun isn't lonely

[sudden pewter]

Eclipse Shade Lewis my beloved

Take off the fucking cooler and lemme drink the water inside

[chilly granite]

bruh I had second seed in a game wtih a 6000 RS player on my team and a 18000rs sword

[slender fiber]

virtual extension Lewis gun will never be topped because the Lewis gun is the most beautiful gun ever

[chilly granite]

idk how I'm meant to carry teammates like that tbh

[sudden pewter]

Lewis was what made me start playing Heavy in the first place, Virtual Extension was my first purchase in the game

[chilly granite]

sword died to pro like 9 times

i pulled it off round 1 but that was only because the enemy didn't punish my dunk

[slender fiber]

genuinely same

the only reason I picked up heavy after running medium for a few games

i feel like a finals version of the chauchat would be like the shak-50 in dps but worse hipfire and a bit more range and more accurate ads

[sudden pewter]

Shak is unironically the gold standard for weapon balance

High damage potential, coold split shot mechanic, punishing reload, low magazine

https://tenor.com/view/chefs-kiss-french-chef-perfect-dish-excellent-food-perfection-gif-20341505

[unkempt moss]

Every heavy has a SHAK for a reason

Its the standard

[molten compass]

the GOAT

[sudden pewter]

Do I wish other weapons were as potent? Yes.
Does the Shak deserve to be crucified for Embarks failings? No.

[slender fiber]

shak-50 and Lewis gun try not to be perfect in every way challenge

[slow linden]

And yet Embarks probably eyeing it for the chopping block next

[slender fiber]

please no dude

it has no sustain already don't kill my baby

[unkempt moss]

Please please you can just call me king

[slow linden]

I do not ask for it just predict the worst outcomes for heavy

I knew they'd randomly gut Sledge and continue to neglect spear and mgl

[sudden pewter]

The Light hivemind has decided Heavy is too strong and as the most popular archetype they have the most say when it comes to balance

[slow linden]

May they all rot in shit for what they've done to us

[slender fiber]

spear needs a from the ground rework I'm ngl

[slender fiber]

lights and heavies going at it like cats and dogs

[slow linden]

Careful the spear mains are too stubbornly clung to their piles of garbage to hear you out,same with mgl mains

Spear sucks because there's a hard limit on how many things it can hit with spin at once

[slender fiber]

no I think the spin is a terrible idea in general

[slow linden]

That is the source of all of its problems

[slender fiber]

0 skill and it stuns you for ages so you die, replace that shit

[slow linden]

I think it was terribly executed not a terrible idea as a whole

[slender fiber]

if spin was good it would be cringe as fuck and if it's bad then it's useless and you die

[slow linden]

Is it no skill? Sure,is it on the enemy for being within spin range? Yes absolutely,keep it but make it actually work

[unkempt moss]

This is correct.

[slow linden]

It would be fine,do not sabotage the funny

[slow linden]

Catter blocked me for recommending a throw instead of a spin and a couple flamethrower reworks,got really pissy whenever I brought either one up

[unkempt moss]

Did he actually?

[slender fiber]

add air blast from tf2

[slow linden]

That was one of em,the other was either a chargeable fireball or a fireball that crits on burning targets

[slow linden]

Dead ass

[sudden pewter]

#heavy-build-main message
This is what I have notated so idk

Yeah, he argued the throwing knives were melee weapons

https://tenor.com/view/consequences-cat-gif-6581548611274851813

[slow linden]

I said they can be used as them

[unkempt moss]

He loves when I fight for the right to throw spear

[sudden pewter]

Careful kitten, I have reddit gold

[slow linden]

He's going to love having it thrown at him

[slow linden]

Sounds like something you'd have

[unkempt moss]

He's comfortable knowing that throwing the spear is much too much effort for embark.

[slow linden]

True,flamethrower igniting buildings was too much for Embarks servers

I want that shit back,I fucking hate wm1 no consequence flamethrower users,and it added depth and a lot of utility to the weapon

[sudden pewter]

I'm just saying bro JAVELINS could totally work as a standalone weapon and doesn't require bastardizing an already existing one

[slender fiber]

solution is give flamethrower to medium instead

[sudden pewter]

Perish

[slow linden]

The existing one is basterdized since birth

[slender fiber]

bastardising a gimmick weapon at best

[unkempt moss]

The spear sucks and it needs something fun.

[sudden pewter]

Spins even faster

[slow linden]

Spend eternity in piss

[slender fiber]

if the spin was just a single loop it would be better

[slow linden]

We cannot have nice things

[slender fiber]

because it's silly to sit there for 3 seconds afk either killing everyone or dying because you misinput m2

[slender fiber]

they hated Jesus because he told the truth

[slow linden]

You are the serpent not a messiah

[slender fiber]

gg

[unkempt moss]

IT SUCKS AND I HATE IT

[slow linden]

Beyond uselessness tbh

[slender fiber]

the finals would be better off it ak was better than repeater please and thank you also buff Lewis gun and charge n slam

[sudden pewter]

FUCK YOU IF EMBARK ACTUALLY KNEW HOW TO PROPERLY BALANCE MELEE WEAPONS BEYOND IGNORING THEM IT WOULD BE BETTER

[slow linden]

Imagine being able to throw spears and climb them

[slow linden]

Truth

[slender fiber]

rain world ass weapon

[unkempt moss]

I hate when hes right. Someone tell him hes wrong.

[sudden pewter]

• Jiggles when I walk
• Always right
  💅

The melee rework cannot come fast enough

[slow linden]

Haven't played rainworld yet,people keep telling me to try it

[slender fiber]

do it it's sick as fuck

[sudden pewter]

I cannot imagine it's anything other than high priority and it's been 4 seasons so when it does arrive it better be more than fucking "sledge 2 gud"

[slow linden]

He's wrong in the spirit of it

[slender fiber]

so good my name is a reference to it

[sudden pewter]

Your name refers to #👂┇game-feedback I thought

[slow linden]

Do not speak the devils name here

[slender fiber]

you get a gold star for that one

[sudden pewter]

Im a good noodle. the best even

[slender fiber]

surely them adding basically nothing this season means they are working on something big right? ...right...?

[unkempt moss]

Yes

[sudden pewter]

2 months with no changes due to TGM last season. Then S9 launches with questionable changes at best, and a very short list at that. I really hope they've been cooking naked this whole time and they're waiting to surprise us with something actually meaningful.

But tbh I'm not optimistic, the pivot to ESPORTS came out of nowhere and so far we haven't seen any positive benefits.

The Premium BP's still haven't paid off either, just another form of consistent revenue for Embark. Was hoping to see the money go towards servers

More than anything I want consistent clear communication from the balance team. That shits free and embark still holds back

[dry path]

they even fixed it for heaven or else 😭 why can't we have nice things

[analog pewter]

It's literally not coming

I think they need to make lunge more consistent and by that I mean if you're in the same zip code as my crosshair I should get the fucking lunge

[chilly granite]

thrust shouldn't have movement or sword should be o med

[unkempt moss]

3 hours, fellas.

Finals 2.0

[chilly granite]

is that when update

[unkempt moss]

March 17th yeah.

Literally saved the genre.

Anti projectile on a grappler? Insane

[chilly granite]

r8 my ranked loadout

[unkempt moss]

11 options off of prowler, special counter hit state. Giving grappler demon flip is just as insane

[serene glade]

Still gets mogged by Terry's, juris, sagats

[serene glade]

Disgusting

[chilly granite]

grapple sucks but it's better for playing solo queue because I can grab vaults and teammates and bail if my team is feeding

[unkempt moss]

Literally just fake air stampede. Or flying squirrel. It's so over

[chilly granite]

dash wins me more fights, but the tactical utility of a grapple is very powerful

[analog pewter]

No h+ you are dead weight

[sudden pewter]

What the fuck am I reading

[chilly granite]

my heavies are dead weight which is why I don't bother with h+

i have it in reserves if my heavies prove themselves in round 1

[analog pewter]

Plugging the box only to force your teammates to coin back in and probably losing the next fight that comes to you

[chilly granite]

yup pretty much

[unkempt moss]

Terry is allowed to be on par with the goat

[analog pewter]

Average egotistical light player mentality

[chilly granite]

I win based on vault pop and dunk money

[analog pewter]

Lmao okay

[chilly granite]

it's way more consistent for me

[serene glade]

That was the meta tbf a couple a seasons ago

[analog pewter]

Light players are such stooges...

[serene glade]

Terry or Sagat in march

[chilly granite]

If I could reliably work with my teammates effectively, I would use better strategies

[analog pewter]

I wonder how many times you've flashed your teammates and gotten them killed only to blame them for your team fight loss

[unkempt moss]

Sagat. Terry is my sub

[chilly granite]

not many I tend to forget to use my flashes

[analog pewter]

That's good for your team then

[unkempt moss]

You're actually such a Sagat but refuse to accept it

[serene glade]

I flash my teammates with breach drill all the time and tell them to suck my nuts

[analog pewter]

Swap it for h+ and give a little bit of support to your heavies you're currently leaving for dead

[chilly granite]

last time I tried that it was yikes

[unkempt moss]

Plus Sag is the coolest he's ever been. CA3 literally breaking femurs.

[serene glade]

My light loadout is glitch, h+, nullify

[serene glade]

He has the multi use sa1 right?

[unkempt moss]

Mine is accidentally loading in with grapple

[unkempt moss]

I'm not sure if it's 1 or 2.

[chilly granite]

gateway is way too operful for the strat I'm using

[unkempt moss]

I think 2 is usually the utility super

[chilly granite]

but I'm a tdm main, you think i'd play like a rat for fun?

[unkempt moss]

Im flash chopping tiger shots on reaction anyway. So it doesn't matter.

Do you think flying knee AAs tiger knee?

[serene glade]

Remember Sagat is not a zoner because Capcom is afraid of zoners

[unkempt moss]

Make it work

Zoner to master

[serene glade]

Yeah his sa2 side switches, juggles, or just does raw damage depending on input, based

Release the patch notes and show me nothing is gonna change, please embark

[unkempt moss]

SA1 for Alex looks like he just spear tackles you

I am so happy and grateful that the lord has blessed me to grapple my foes.

[analog pewter]

I don't care until they announce Makoto

If Makoto is not in season 4 I'm crashing out

I've waited an entire decade

[unkempt moss]

She probably has a better chance than Duds. At least she wasn't complete replaced by another fighter.

Makoto with a drive rush is toxic af

Rush, command grab, 75%

[serene glade]

Makoto is definitely the most requested i hear from people so I can see it happening

I hope Hugo gets in tbh

[analog pewter]

Yeah but she's been the most requested for like 7 years so I just think Capcom hates her

[unkempt moss]

First ever special intro in 6. Hugo v Alex to recreate 3s

[unkempt moss]

Alex is in, bud. The world is healing.

[analog pewter]

Capcom loves Alex it's different.....

Or Kenny omega does and Capcom loves Kenny

[unkempt moss]

Thats probably more accurate.

[analog pewter]

Unironically though I'm nearly 27 now and I've been asking for Makoto since I was like 16 when sfv was just coming around

[unkempt moss]

The world is healing bud. I know Makoto is season 4.

[nocturne pelican]

buff glitch

[chilly granite]

do people actually think that m11 has recoil?

[alpine sphinx]

They do, but only so that it doesn't get nerfed

[chilly granite]

at the range it's intended for use in, it has litearlly none

at long ranges its still easy as hell if you burst fire half a clip instead of the whole ass magazine

[near scroll]

its recoil got buffed whenever ago too

[chilly granite]

the cb is so stupid if you play grapple

[alpine sphinx]

Yes and it's more accurate than the Minigun, while having almost the same dps

[chilly granite]

people playing cb in tdm give me trauma

[near scroll]

peter is stupid period bruh

[chilly granite]

the minigun does feel like ass so that makes sense

delete dome shield and make heavy guns actually fun please embark

[near scroll]

cannibalizes revolver and pike's identities, already a pain to play against as light but even moreso now that bfr is a thing too

[alpine sphinx]

Minigun isn't ass, it's situational though, the worst thing about it is that you can't really use gadgets while using it in an active fight

[chilly granite]

it's ass in tdm

if they wanted a lever gun just do a lever action shotgun

[near scroll]

you're not gonna believe this bro...

[near scroll]

who tf cares about tdm balance bruh 😭

[unkempt moss]

Hes number 42 in world

[chilly granite]

all the casuals that buy the skins and play tdm and pay for your servers

[unkempt moss]

Thats cashout players bud.

[chilly granite]

you mean world tour/

[unkempt moss]

Cashout, ranked or casual.

[chilly granite]

I don't think the casual population of ranked cashout is high

[near scroll]

sure but if we balance around tdm casuals then the rest of the game gets fucked :(

[chilly granite]

tbh I don't think the populatioon of ranked cashout is high either

[unkempt moss]

Ill be real. I'd rather play terminal attack than TDM

[near scroll]

not sure i'd go that far lol, but fair enough

[unkempt moss]

Im just saying how I feel. I used to at least queue terminal on occasion.

[chilly granite]

I mean, when I played minigun it felt like it lacked a lot of "fuck that direction in particular" energy

I would like it to have significantly better dps with significantly less accuracy

it wasn't really unusable but it didn't really feel like a minigun

[near scroll]

being able to win 1v1s against dash m11s made it feel like a minigun to me, in the context of the finals lmao

[unkempt moss]

Ranking of mainstay modes. Cashout, Point Break, Bank It, Quick Cash, Power Shift, Terminal, TDM.

This is objectively correct.

[chilly granite]

id' take 5v5 bank it over tdm, but 3v3v3v3 bank it was kinda sad beacuse oten your teammates didn't play with you and griefed a lot

[near scroll]

5v5 quick cash when

[unkempt moss]

I still want 2v2v2v2v2v2 cashout.

[chilly granite]

5v5 bank it on the limited tdm maps would be really interesting

honestly I think 6 teams 3v3 cashout would be cool

I'm gonna be rank 30tdm if I play wiht the m11 more

[unkempt moss]

A in support. Disgusting.

[chilly granite]

I should've flashed my team more ik

[near scroll]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-my-goodness-gracious-oh-my-goodness-cat-funny-funny-cat-gif-13420237915563187242

[unkempt moss]

Just get ruby in ranked. You're plenty good to do it

[chilly granite]

taunt kills when?

gooking wanna coach my tdm?

[unkempt moss]

Then you can fire back on people who shit on tdm

Hell no. How tf would I coach tdm

[chilly granite]

idk why I'm farming kills with m11, I'm meant to be practicing my cqb bow aim

[unkempt moss]

Your best quality is how mad it makes people that youre good at TDM

[chilly granite]

hahahaa

using grapple with bow is so painful in cqb

[unkempt moss]

Invis on bow

[chilly granite]

honestly invis is better

[unkempt moss]

I like invis

[chilly granite]

even thoguh bow and invis has antisynergy you have first move advatnage so yu can just waitfor an easy shot

like, idk why invis whiners don't want there to be a delay to shoot with inivs

i feel like that would be a great trade for actually functional invisibility

[unkempt moss]

Can you charge bow while invis

[chilly granite]

no, that's the antisynergy

[unkempt moss]

Needs that buff.

[chilly granite]

thats my point, invis is fine even with a firedelay of 570ms

[unkempt moss]

You can charge sword and dagger. doesn't makes sense.

[chilly granite]

it does not need that buff

[unkempt moss]

I think it does.

[chilly granite]

that would make the bow legit op

it's already a stealthy weapon and giving it invis full draw dps is crazy

[unkempt moss]

It'll be alright

[chilly granite]

getting hit for 124/186 at range from invis

do you reall ywant that?

[unkempt moss]

Wouldn't bother me.

[chilly granite]

would u be down to coach my acutal cashouts thoguh?

[unkempt moss]

Depends on what's going on. I play pretty unorthodox though, so ypure probably better getting a more normal player.

[chilly granite]

I feel like your gonna have the best advice for my weaknesses tbh

[unkempt moss]

You'd also have to learn googun

I'm nothing without it

[chilly granite]

how about goo grenade?

I've been thinking that goo grenade is somewhat a better flashbang

but I do not know how to use it

honestly goo gun is probably eh spec i should use on heavy cuz it's probably the one I most actually press the button on

man I need to get some food first my hands are shaking from hunger lol, I can't aim

maybe that's why teh m11 was so easy lol, my hand shaking triggering the recoil smooohting

[near scroll]

can we please nerf everything? like unironically, ccould we die a bit slower?

[chilly granite]

100x agreed

like genuinely the only oneshot combos on any class should require significant outplay

dagger shuld be on medium

[near scroll]

dagger is a stupid weapon for this game ngl

[chilly granite]

I think it's fine on medium

you gotta rely on your teammates to set up for you wtih invis or gateway. You can make intersting plays with jump pad, and you have more health to support it, but you don't have the benefit of self-supporting via dash/grapple/invis/invisbomb

oneshot combos shoud require both teamplay and outplay

[slate epoch]

What do you think they're gonna nerf/buff

[chilly granite]

REPEATER

[near scroll]

i just think it's weird given the main gamemode requires interactions where you stand still. it seems like you'd be trading a lot of generally applicable combat ability for a very potent stalling tool

[chilly granite]

but I think that's an intersting tradeoff to make, instead of the weird clipfarming dagger we have now

sniper goes to heavy. Heavy doesn't have mobility to self support a sniper rifle, and is a big obvious target on far sightlines

[slate epoch]

When's the update coming?

[chilly granite]

sh1900 and sword to medium. sh1900 gets retuned so that you have to truely facestuff, skin on skin contact, a light to onetap them, but with a slightly slower firerate

hp pool of medium and light are tuned closer together, so that mines are less op against light and more powerful vs medium, and then heavy gets a hp buff to keep everything reasonable

I mean, that's one option for balancing the gmae

the other is to lean into the oneshot kills and just make respawns not take 3 years with limited toakens

my prefrerence is to just lean into it and make respawning and reviving both more effective

but that's not the esports answer so it's not realistic

[slender fiber]

I would stop playing the game if the one shot crap was buffed

[chilly granite]

you wouldn't be playing the same game where death sucks thogu

[slender fiber]

there's already too many weapons that make me feel like a light when I'm playing heavy (talking about you, DB, repeater)

[chilly granite]

i stand by my opinon that heavy needs more hp and dome shield deletus

[slender fiber]

game would be better off if nothing could one tap a medium even tbh

fuck sniper and fuck dagger and fuck db and fuck em all

they don't deserve to exist the way they do

[slender fiber]

done shield gives heavies a way to support their team too though

[chilly granite]

mesh?