💣┇weapons-gadgets

[chilly granite]

tbh I think the biggest problem is teh height gap between classes makes new players not want to play heavy or medium becasue it feels way slower

[slender fiber]

yeah as a heavy player I hate lights tbh

[compact tundra]

All heavies hate lights, it's a universal truth

[slender fiber]

esp double barrel shotgun it's so unfun to get two shot like I'm some kind of medium or something

[chilly granite]

meanwhile winch hard counters db

tbh it's only true if you're using SA+winch

[slender fiber]

no it don't I don't think

[proven agate]

any good flame thrower loadout? i cna climb in rank? Im getting bored of mini gun

[chilly granite]

maybe deags+winch I don't actually know

[slender fiber]

you get winched then blam blam they dead

[shell sonnet]

if i cant be bothered, i go winch, flame, rpg, dome and a secret third thing (anything really)

[slender fiber]

I just hate all the one shot stuff

[chilly granite]

sa+quickmelee can kill a light pretty mcuh in winch stun

bfr headshot+quickmelee also

[proven agate]

what playstyle should I use with it? im not familliar with flame thrower playstyle

[slender fiber]

consider that I'm not a winch gringo

[chilly granite]

tbh I think explosives should be tuned down in general, there's toomany oneshot combos

[alpine sphinx]

you often cant even attack them once when you grab them with winch

[slender fiber]

and I run real man weapons like Lewis gun and shak-50

[chilly granite]

shak for dweebs

lewis and deags are chad weapons

[narrow solar]

LH1 definitely needs a recoil buff its just barely better than the arn body shots wise with wayyy more recoil

and headshots are basically impossible to hit consistently when the target is moving around so ttk is not a problem.

[chilly granite]

no

you are just bad

spent 10 hours, lh1, and don't let yourself hit bodyshots. Headshots only. Take your time aiming, don't let yourself hit any bodyshots. You'll hit way too many headshots after that

when you start doubledinking dash lights, you'll regret what you said

[fast oasis]

you say this but the Bow is literally replacing the DB now

[shell sonnet]

i mostly random bs go, or my intuition is already so advanced it just works out
or im just not thinking hard enough rn

probably better off asking someone else

[fast oasis]

its not about explosives, it about the burst of initial damage certain combos cause and how they can be instantly followed up on; it's why the RPG has been meta for years.

[chilly granite]

where arepeople using the db in the first place?

[fast oasis]

Everywhere? I see it every other game in diamond lobbies lol

[shell sonnet]

thx again @unkempt moss that you didnt give up on me there
its been a long day

[fast oasis]

Can't speak for casual though, I don't play quick cash, but I do regularly play TDM/PS/Ranked

[chilly granite]

is that a regional thing maybe? I don't think anyones using it in europe, but I'm not high ranked in cashout

[fast oasis]

Im NA

[chilly granite]

I mean, I said to embark that I think the bow should do less bodyshot damage and get more headshot damage

[fast oasis]

Only thing I don't see regularly on Light in Ranked/TDM is SR82 (Sniper), M26 Matter and XP54

[chilly granite]

headshot multiplier*

aand the bow is too easy to use right now, it's hitscan wthin 10 meters because the hitbox is massive

[fast oasis]

I think the opposite is true. It's supposed to be a sniper, by doing this in addition to the most recent buff you are just misplacing the DB even more

[unkempt moss]

I know you have it in you. Keep doing what you do best, bud.

[fast oasis]

The Bow is a sniper, it should not be insanely good and an easy 2-hit melee combo at point blank vs a Medium or Heavy

[chilly granite]

how does reducing bodyshot damage and keeping headshot damage the same make it more replace the db?

I might have phrased it badly the first time

[fast oasis]

because hitting headshots at point blank is harder due to how the bow's fire rate and draw mechanics

[chilly granite]

yeah, so how does making it more headshot dependant make it more cannibalize the double barrled?

themelee combo on medium probably should be nerfed thb

[fast oasis]

the bow is a single projectile and garauntees all the damage it delivered at point blank; the DB damage can vary if you are just slgihtly out of range, making the Bow even more consistent than the DB at point-blank. The DB doesn't need headshots at point blank, and by making the bow require them to win close range fights, you force the bow back into its traditional role, a mid-to-long range sniper

the Bow is not a brawl weapon, thats the M26 Matter/DB/M11's job.

[chilly granite]

we are agreeing, oyu just read my first message wrong

[fast oasis]

ah, my bad haha

[chilly granite]

I have told embark support that I want the bow bodyshot damage to be nerfed, and the bow to recieve better headshot multiplier to make it more headshot dependant for it's dps

[fast oasis]

Yeah, absolutley agreed. It's way too consistent to just bodyspam right now, especially with the recent buff

[chilly granite]

the problem of it being more consistent than the DB is an issue of the arrow hitbox size, it's currently 18.5cm diamater according to my testing, which makes it almost hitscan within like, 9.5 meters on medium or heavy

[fast oasis]

It's not "OP" but definitely too strong. The Bow needs to be hard to use, it's not meant for new players. This buff only made Bow Mains 2-3x more oppressive and frustrating to play against; I'd argue its even more frustrating than playing against a Repeater as a Light

[chilly granite]

the hitbox also makes it annoying to use in its intended role because arrows get stuck in cover if you use it like a sniper

[fast oasis]

^

[chilly granite]

I'm terrible at using quickmelee so I go for headshots on medium

I've been pracitcing matter and I still suck at using quickmelee

I have melee aim assist off becuase it makes me naseuous and I think my mouse sensitivity is too low for melee hahahaha

[fast oasis]

I'm on a super low sens and still use it

[chilly granite]

tbh the headshot -> bodyshot combo on medium is actually way more opressive than the melee combo, but it's also way harder

with aim assit off on melee?

it's 0.71s ttk drawn bow headshot -> partial draw bodyshot, but because it's partial draw it's not hitscan until you're in like 1 meter lol and even then it's a much harder combo to hit

the real crazy one is .68s and that's drawn headshot to undrawn headshot, I've hit it twice now, once at like 30m

the 30m shot was before the bow buff so it was like, .76s ttk

[chilly granite]

The problem with the nerf to qm combo on medium is that it's also stop the bow being able to qm light, which I think is undeserved

Lights are already a problem for the bow because the have the best gap close and evasiveness, losing the ability to hit bodyshot to melee is really rough

If the bow was more consistent at range then I'd be more ok with losing the qm combo on light

Also I think the bow more so replaces the matter, feeling like a slug shotgun that can dive when the situation is good, were the dB is more of a straight dive shotgun

The arrow is the same size as matters inner spread at like, 4 meters lol

But the bow kinda fills both jobs

And if you're shooting from above the bow can't miss the head basically, meanwhile on the same level or just slight elevation sometimes it'll be blocked by shoulders

[alpine sphinx]

i would love to see some official stats on pickrates in this game. I feel like 95% of lights run with dash, and 99% of meds use the defi, and thats since basically forever.
Really wonder why embark doesnt take note and nerfs them both, because they absolutely ruin mid elo lobbies

[chilly granite]

"ruining mid elo lobbies" is a weird take

and the defib is kinda crap? coining needs a buff, rather than defib needing a nerf

dash is toxic to play against for weak players, and defines the meta for high tier players making grapple and invis underpowered though

I'll take thermal as light's 4th spec though with a smoke buff

OK, bias check

smokes take too long to propogate and aren't thick enuogh

bad take?

[compact tundra]

@indigo nexus
@shell sonnet

So an interesting thing about the servers I've really noticed by playing private matches

It seems that the lag issues are exclusive to specific games. So regardless of map, variant, gamemode, and events, each game I play either has a chance to be extremely laggy and desync heavy or completely normal.

The two clips I'm about to show you are from back to back games, in both of these games my friend experienced no issues while in one of them I experienced severe issues. We live only a few miles from each other so the servers should always be our regional servers, yet for an entirety of one game I experienced extreme desync while for another everything was flawless and perfect

I genuinely wonder what causes these issues?

[chilly granite]

I've had routing issues to the servers before, 350ms extra ping

[compact tundra]

I'm on console so I can't check my ping

[chilly granite]

idk what's actually causing the routing issue

[indigo nexus]

It’s not very clear what the problems are, in these clips

[chilly granite]

I measured it by timing the input lag on dash

[compact tundra]

Wdym? Like the server issues or the issues I'm experiencing

[indigo nexus]

The issues that you are experiencing, there’s only a little info

[chilly granite]

i mean, there could be a few things going on, but there's a significant delay to the hitmarker when he shoots buddy

so he's at least got a lotta ping

[indigo nexus]

It does look like mainly a packet loss problem? But there’s no easy way to tell where it’s occurring networking wise

[compact tundra]

Well we can derive something I think is important. I can see my friends movements perfectly fine and I can move perfectly fine but the hit register is still extremely laggy. But there were other moments where I began to physically lag while trying to move even tho I could see her movement perfectly fine

[chilly granite]

lagging on movement is typical for packet loss

lagging on shots but not movement is typical for high ping

at least for source engine games

[compact tundra]

Ok, I don't really know what packet loss is, I'm a console baby, may you explain

[chilly granite]

packet loss is when data you send gets lost on the way and never arrives, so the server gets mad at you and says "I don't remeber you moving that far!" and yoinks you back to where you were before

(to prevent speedhacks)

[indigo nexus]

or the other way around, I don’t think the icon tells you, and it’s hard to tell the difference in this context

[compact tundra]

I was experiencing bouts of stuttering movement and almost the entire game I was experiencing the weird hit delays, so I wonder which it is

[chilly granite]

probably a bit of both

[indigo nexus]

Outgoing packet loss would lead to you jittering backward more while incoming would be more like your movement keeps suddenly halting, and yeah both is quite likely

[compact tundra]

But I don't remember sling shotting (rubber banding)

[chilly granite]

I don't know what finals does for networking, but in CSGO packets aren't resent ever, so if your shot gets eaten by the void it'll never arrive, not avoid late

[indigo nexus]

Either way, we can’t easily tell where the issue is actually occurring

[chilly granite]

if finals is using tcp/packet resending then you wouldn't have rubber banding just really gross feeling

[indigo nexus]

It uses UDP, but video games often introduce their own failsafe measures and such for lost packets. I do not know to what extent the finals does this.

[chilly granite]

yeah, that's what i meant by /packet resending lol

if it does resend packets than just packet loss could explain everything

[indigo nexus]

(I’m guessing not much if at all, as it’s rarely possible for shots to get lost with seemingly not that bad network conditions)

[chilly granite]

but there's mean tto be a lag icon for jitter, which I woudl expect to see here?

[shell sonnet]

hardware issue maybe?

[indigo nexus]

That said, in arc raiders I find it’s actually not uncommon for my shots to get undone, so I think that has less of a failsafe in place on that front than the finals does

[chilly granite]

https://www.thefinals.wiki/wiki/In-Game_Warning_Icons

is there a lag icon in the video? it's kinda crap quality no hate

[compact tundra]

I doubt cause both games are back to back and it's game to game I experienced the issues, not consistently. If I'm in a good match I have no issues whatsoever, if I'm in a bad match I experience consistent issues

[chilly granite]

idk what kinda hardware issue would cause that other than the worst lan drivers ever

[indigo nexus]

We can see a packet loss icon near the end of the first one, as well as a ping (I think) logo briefly

[chilly turret]

mmmmm trench gun

[indigo nexus]

Could be that their router is not functioning that well, but that’s a murky area for me as I don’t know much about what can go wrong with them.

[chilly granite]

yeah looks like ping not jitter

[chilly granite]

if other people are using the network then yeah, if it's just them, again, it'd have to be the worst router ever

[indigo nexus]

Guess packet prioritisation issues are feasible

[chilly granite]

yeah

but at least for me, when I had a similar problem, and my friend had a similar problem, it was the routing to the aws server was junk

vpn fixed it nicely for my friend

[alpine sphinx]

How is it a weird take? And if Defi was crap, then you wouldn't see literally every single medium run it. It still gives you time to shoot instead of reviving and it still gives I frames after being revived. It is still an S Tier gadget after like 6 nerfs, because it is fundamentally broken.

Also, yes dash is extremely toxic, and if something "defines the high tier meta" for over a year, and has a pick rate across all elos of over 90%, then that thing should absolutely get nerfed to fucking death, or at least made significantly weaker to give the alternatives a chance.

[indigo nexus]

My router at home is connected to the internet via a somewhat shaky cable connection which can be loosened, so that kind of hardware issue is possible… but unlikely, if you don’t experience such issues routinely

[chilly granite]

generally you'd see way worse and more consistent symptoms if it was your router's fault

[chilly granite]

how is people using the meta, ruining your lobbies

that's the weird part

defib is crap because taking a gadget that acually wins the fight is just as effective, the problem is that coining is worthless becuase the cooldown is forever and it's a limited resource that becomes free on teamwipe

[alpine sphinx]

Because the meta has been the same since almost 2 years?

That is extremely bad for a game, especially a competitive one

[chilly granite]

coining is too expensive relative to defib, that's why defib is s tier, not that defib is good

if you could coin and actually get back into the fight fast enough to help your teammate, then defib would be immeditaetly f tier

[alpine sphinx]

What are you even saying, yes that is what makes Defi so good but what is your point?

[chilly granite]

defib is not op, it's just iireplacable

[alpine sphinx]

Yes and then that would be much worse, because the endless fights where you have to kill people 3 times in 15 seconds are horrible

[chilly granite]

"endless" two coins

[alpine sphinx]

So it is fundamentally flawed and needs a rework, thanks, that's exactly what I've been saying

[chilly granite]

making death not refresh cd's would already making coining on low cooldown fine

[alpine sphinx]

What?

Sorry that sentence doesn't make sense to me

Giving coins a lower cool down would be bad though, since that removes the value of revives in crucial fights

[chilly granite]

it'd still save walking distance

and coins are a limited resource, I feel like you're overlooking that

it would also give teams that win with more coins saved, more of an advatnage in later stages, which is very fair

[alpine sphinx]

It already does give them an advantage

[chilly granite]

a pretty small one

[alpine sphinx]

What you're suggesting is balancing a core gameplay mechanic around a broken gadget, which in my opinion, is kind of stupid

Why not change or remove the broken gadget instead of reinventing the core gameplay?

[chilly granite]

let's delete defib. Coining still needs better value vs teamwiping

[alpine sphinx]

Coining already has better value, if you use it strategically

But yes, I would love it if defib was removed

[analog pewter]

Defib should just be in medium base kit and not a gadget slot

[alpine sphinx]

Nah defib should not exist, or be heavily nerfed and turned into a specialisation

[chilly granite]

heavily buffed and turned into a spec

[analog pewter]

Lame, both of you

[chilly granite]

defib is alread ytoo shit to be a spec, I don't hate theidea of defib spec but it's already way too shit

[stoic garden]

defib is fine as is just buff other options 😄

[compact tundra]

What he's saying is coins in ranked don't get a lot of uses rn and defib's are overall balanced rn. Defib's are no longer the must pick they were and it's pretty common nowadays to see mediums outside of upper elo ranked choose to not run them. When in playing casual (not counting point break) it's honestly a coin toss on whether my random medium has defib's. The only nerf I'dgive them at this point is to make being deffibed cost half of your defib charge. So chaining defib's isn't possible, that's really the only change they need rn and that only affects casual

[chilly granite]

defibs are also popular in part because mediums gadgets suck overall as @stoic garden says

[alpine sphinx]

I disagree, I think the main change defib needs is a destructible "construction phase" to make defib counter able, as well as removal of i-frames and a global cool down for all mediums on the team.

[chilly granite]

I frames are annoying I did have a light eat my nullifier with iframes and kill me with m11 in the same iframes

[alpine sphinx]

It is literally in every single mediums load out in ranked and world tour, what are you talking about

[chilly granite]

what class do you play?

[compact tundra]

That would make defib's literally throwing. If you have to take your teammate far away to a safe spot to rez then why do defib's exist, it's literally just better to hand rez then at that point so they don't suffer sickness. And if that were the case then light would by far be the best class at rezing, while rn lights are the best at body grabbing and medium is the best at mid fight rezing

[alpine sphinx]

I play all classes

[stoic garden]

you understand that it's not strong enough to be a spec right

[chilly granite]

I'm betting he's a heavy player

if you play all classes, pick one favourite weapon

[alpine sphinx]

You forget that you can shoot and do anything else while your teammate is reviving. Defibrillating a teammate around a corner and shooting at the enemy until your teammate respawns only gets punished by defibrillating in stupid places or when you are already basically dead anyways, which makes sense

[alpine sphinx]

Probably dagger

[hardy dust]

Just remove iframes from defib

[stoic garden]

yea it's such a stupid mechanic lol

[alpine sphinx]

Real

[stoic garden]

and not at all shown to the player

[alpine sphinx]

It is shown I think, but it's stupid that invulnerabilities exist in a game like this

[chilly granite]

If it loses iframes then the Rezee should have more hp because being defibbed into a one shot is not cool

[shell sonnet]

youre save during it
you get to shoot back

you give the enemy the choice between stopping the defib, but they will take damage to do so

not perfect, but it helps

and its not throwing for the defub user

[alpine sphinx]

It's a free almost instant revive bro

[chilly granite]

All classes should ress with 150hp

[compact tundra]

But they can flank, they can destroy the wall, they can kill you and then kill your defibed teammate who is suffering from sickness. That only works in a 1v1 scenario against someone with no destruction or movement options. And in ranked being defibbed and then killed again can actually really hurt your team

[stoic garden]

🤔

[chilly granite]

Heavies and mediums can experience being a light for 8 seconds

[stoic garden]

i may enjoy light but with the hp regen timers i'd say keep it a %

[chilly granite]

Maybe doing 150/175/200

[stoic garden]

also 150hp is kinda strong

[alpine sphinx]

Which means you have to think of when and where to defib your teammates, sounds good to me

[chilly granite]

I don't think omeshotting a defib should be possible, so more than 140(frag grenade) hp

[stoic garden]

makes stupid ass defibbing have more value

[alpine sphinx]

This is dumb. 150hp on a light are way more valuable that 150hp on a heavy, especially considering heavies long healing delay

[chilly granite]

If you're not gonna havw iframes you need at least 140hp or everyone runs frags and defib is unpickable

[stoic garden]

nobody's running frags anymore lil bro

[compact tundra]

No, it makes it kinda useless and by think you mean retreat to a safe place which again at that point just hand rez. There are so many ways for them to just shoot the reviving teammate while flanking or juking you. Not to mention that this buffs poke even more

[chilly granite]

They will if it one shots a defib

[stoic garden]

and a defib iframe removal wont change what people will run, just shoot them atp

[chilly granite]

Being able to drop a frag on the defib animation and get a guaranteed Res deny is huge

[alpine sphinx]

Again, you can shoot while your teammate revives, it is still way better than a manual revive if you need a quick backup

[compact tundra]

Not if you have to retreat to an area where they can't flank you or destroy your cover

[stoic garden]

a crazy defib rework would be to make it revive a player in a nullified state like nullifier, have longer defib sickness and maybe less hp

tho that's a buff as funny as it sounds

[chilly granite]

That's a better take than removing iframes

[stoic garden]

i dont wanna buff defib for stupid ass players but i kinda want this in the game now ngl

[alpine sphinx]

You can easily dip into cover, pop a Defi and shoot your enemy from outside the cover, it literally takes 1 second. If you expect to get value out of a Defi by reviving teammates in a room full of enemies, you are rightfully failing

[chilly granite]

I like it on the basis ti reduces defib griefing and it's highly tuneable, there's alot of things they can adjust to improve its balancing

[chilly granite]

they will throw a frag on it and you've just griefed your teammate

[stoic garden]

frags are not that popular 😭

[chilly granite]

if that change was real, it would be overnight popular because of this use case

[stoic garden]

but it happens even with current defib, the timing is just slightly different, skill issue ngl

[alpine sphinx]

Frags are not super much picked, so that would be a W for a shift in meta. Also, fights in this game can be chaotic, so no shot that people always have a nade to prevent a Defi.

[chilly granite]

the iframes make it way easier to dodge a frag

like the timing is not just different, its also smaller, becaue the iframes allow the player to move more distance before the frag can pop

[stoic garden]

fair ig, frags need more love after all, LIKE HAVING 2 CHARGES AGAIN

[alpine sphinx]

I-frames are horrible in fps games.

[chilly granite]

that's an opinion and it's not really releevent to the discussion

[alpine sphinx]

Especially when you can act while you have them

[shell sonnet]

this

they could also just make it a separate revive action
instead of "theyre already back, but halfway dead"

so the timer isnt reset

[alpine sphinx]

Yes it is. It's literally about whether or not Defi should give i-frames

[chilly granite]

it's unfair that you can shoot while invulnerable is a good take

iframes suck in fps games is not

do you see the difference?

please give reasoning for takes, even if it's bad reasoning

[alpine sphinx]

How are i-frames good for the game?

[chilly granite]

I think that nullifier is both a fun and intersting gadget for both the nuller and nullee

[stoic garden]

if it's bad reasoning just send this https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1083509509378539560/1462126867795546291/W_ish_the_finals_gif_meme_speechbubble.gif?width=1000&height=563&ex=696fb242&is=696e60c2&hm=41f07b8f582dd07fa46a47de27117492d2cb0c2e68d7c2acc2c9a76814741c1a&

[alpine sphinx]

Nullifier is separate because you can't act or do anything except move, and you can't be put in that state by a teammate

[chilly granite]

that's still iframes

[stoic garden]

what if you could defib enemies 😱

[chilly granite]

that's why the take that iframes are bad is a bad take, you don't dislike iframes, you dislike people being able to shot while invulnerable, which is a perfectly reasonable take

[stoic garden]

you are so smart for this bro ⚠️

[alpine sphinx]

That's nitpicky af but fine, if you prefer that

[chilly granite]

communicating clearly is important

[stoic garden]

nitpicking stuff isnt

[alpine sphinx]

Well yes but it's obvious I am talking about something else

[chilly granite]

that's not self evident. you could think boht defbi and nulli are bad, but defib is worse

[stoic garden]

you're wasting more time arguing over this than people in cashout dragging vault fights for so long the other cashout is done

[compact tundra]

Mother of strawmans, the current defib's can't even rez in a room full of enemies.

So current defib.

• Revives in a room full of enemies. Dies to the hail of bullets, the teammate comes up sick, dies to the hail of bullets...

Your defib's

• Revives in a room full of enemies. Dies to the hail of bullets, teammate dies to the hail of bullets before even being revived...

Current defib's

• Grabs statue but gets shot, runs behind cover, pops defib's, fights the 1 that's rounding the corner and the other coming through the window behind you, dies but teammate manages to get up and pop through the window next to where he was defibbed and gets away to grab your teammates body. You know, the defib's had an actual use

Your defib's

• Grabs statue but gets shot, runs behind cover, pops defib's, fights the 1 that's rounding the corner and the other coming through the window behind you, dies, teammate dies before even getting to move...

[chilly granite]

not everone is in your head which is why clearly expressing your opinions is important

if you don't want to get people to misunderstand you, actaulyl explain your reasoning so they can maybe agree with you

[alpine sphinx]

This is a skill issue because you chose a poor spot to use your defi

[chilly granite]

tbh it's probably a skill isuse on your part because enemies in your games aren't smart enoguht to psuh the defib

but it's hard to know if defibs are actually op as long as there is no alternative way to get teammates in the game to join a fight

if they fix coining and everyone immediately stops using defibs, you have your answer

[compact tundra]

So not gonna address the fact that you said current defib's can rez in a room full of enemies and get away with it.

Also what skill issue, this is the scenario you've been defending. Unless you think defib's should only be usable in 1v1's for a free 2v1. Enemies can flank, enemies can destroy cover, enemies can make callouts, if anything short of running away to a safe and hidden spot is a skill issue then why not hand rez and avoid sickness

[alpine sphinx]

Yes, which makes it a mandatory pick for mediums that wanna be somewhat competitive, hence why I think it should just be disabled until it gets reworked or removed

[chilly granite]

and it's alsohard to call defibs OP in a world wehre the best alternative gadget for medium is like, frag grenade, which someone pointed out is not popular right now

[stoic garden]

can we do this with winch 🔥

[chilly granite]

maybe gas mine is better?

[stoic garden]

gas mine is better imo

[compact tundra]

Ignoring that in the majors a few mediums were running goo nade, APS turret, data reshaper, so they could play rock paper scissors with the goo nade, which was the most match defining gadget on medium by far in the majors

[alpine sphinx]

I didn't say you can get away with it, I said if you do that, you will get rightfully punished.

And the skill issue is referring to you chosing a position to defib where you know enemies are coming from multiple sides where you can't guarantee to hold them off for 2 seconds.

[chilly granite]

but yes, point stands. With the best alternative for that slot being gas mine, defibs are always gonna be pciked just becuase they can do something unique

[alpine sphinx]

Not saying the Goo nade isn't too strong

[compact tundra]

They can always come from multiple sides, that's how this game works, movement is quick and destruction is a thing

[alpine sphinx]

Yes of course, should there be no risk to using defibrillators at all?

[chilly granite]

there is huge risk right now

[alpine sphinx]

There is barely any risk if you don't revive out in the open or right in enemies

[chilly granite]

the iframes are a problem in maybe 1 in 50 games lol

90% of the time it's irrelevent

[alpine sphinx]

The i-frames are relevant in nearly every single one of my games tbh

[shell sonnet]

even that can work with movement spam, bunny hopping and corners

[chilly granite]

i wanna see what teh fuck is going on in your games lol

[alpine sphinx]

Yes true, but it is generally far more risky. The value of getting a teammate up for basically free can't be understated tho, even if it is with sickness and half hp, another gun is another gun.

[alpine sphinx]

If you put pressure on defending enemy teams you will very often get into the position where the i-frames matter

[chilly granite]

someone high skill tell us whos's right

[alpine sphinx]

I can only speak for like 25k rating games

[shell sonnet]

way too biast

[alpine sphinx]

I think high elo is not a good measurement for the general mean of the player population

[chilly granite]

I'm 20k and it's almost never relevent, just kill the medium first?

If I keep up my rank gain from the past two days I'll be 25k tonight

[alpine sphinx]

I don't know about you but I see teams with 3 or 2 mediums at least 4 times in every tournament I play

[chilly granite]

yeah that shit is toxic af

yesterday I played against turret, dual blades, fcar, cl40 with a triple light team

[shell sonnet]

can someone look up the hit + headshot averages to do that in less than 1 second?

for those guys that dont mind camping a statue the whole time

[chilly granite]

triple turreteshahaha

[chilly granite]

bow doubel barrled, matter quicmleele comobo

[alpine sphinx]

Yes because lights are so known for working together

[chilly granite]

we won but ok

[shell sonnet]

ok, 2 weapons out of the question, both of which need to camp point blank

now lets do the other 92% of weapons

[alpine sphinx]

Not saying you didn't, just that the lights kit has way less synergy than stacking mediums or heavies

[chilly granite]

basically any wepaon with headshots

[shell sonnet]

but how much?
what are the numbers

i wanna see what guns you expect us to cheat with

[chilly granite]

if you're playing light it's extremely viable

if you'replaying heavy use deags and be good

medium play fcar and cheat

actually p90 is probably best, 2 headshto

I thn, need to check numbers at some point, tryna play

[shell sonnet]

thought you said both, okey

curious about bow, does this include pre-charge?

[compact tundra]

Longer wipe times? Half health revive? Disabled abilities and specs? Ammo still low? Still have to fight by yourself for 3 seconds?
It's not like a free win or revive button, there are tangible downsides when compared to hand rezing or letting your light run the statue

[chilly granite]

absolutely not including precharge

full draw is 490ms, adn reload is 680ms so make it impossible to do any combo in less than 1s

[alpine sphinx]

Yes, which is why you should not just randomly use it. But in many situations it is so much better to have a fast revive that keeps your hands free compared to being a sitting duck for 6 seconds

[compact tundra]

I don't agree tho, regrouping and being able to push together at full health is really good when compared to fighting a 1v# and then your half health teammate coming up later to either help out or also fight a 1v#

[chilly granite]

defibs are more effective vs worse enemies

having less hp matters less against enemies with worse accuracy, even if you ignore everything else

[compact tundra]

That's fair, kinda why I want the chain nerf just for lower lobbies cause triple medium can still decimate uncoordinated teams

[chilly granite]

yeah chain defibs are beyond toxic

they're not good, but they suck to fight

[alpine sphinx]

Yeah true, but the finals is a game where a lot can be decided in the last 30 seconds of the game, it can all depend on what happens then, and in many situations you can't afford to fully regroup, hence why the defi is so useful and overpicked

[alpine sphinx]

True, I think that is the biggest issue, I think Defi would be a lot more tolerable if there was only 1 per team fight

[compact tundra]

Yes but the defibs don't rez quicker than hand rezing, and heaving a full health teammate is as useful as being able to immediately act and then have your half health teammate support you. It's good to me RN cause theres a choice to be made, sick teammate with the ability to act immediately, or full health teammate that cost your actions for 6 seconds. With your idea there wouldn't be much of a choice cause defining isn't the safer option, since the teammate can die while not even being able to act

[chilly granite]

^^

[alpine sphinx]

And sitting still for 6 seconds is a very long time in a game like this, so I think it would still be very valuable. Tho I agree that simply removing the i-frames would already do a lot in terms of fairness

[compact tundra]

By i-frames you mean the invincibility right after rezing right?

[alpine sphinx]

Yes

[shell sonnet]

but sometimes there isnt a choice

there is "they chase and pick you if you sit still to revive" and "defib"

they are dead because you got a kill
snowballing of of that is your reward

it gives you "options" where there really shouldnt be any

well, an option that shouldnt be

ofc fighting normally should be available
or trying to run it

but not a revive
not like this

[compact tundra]

Ok just so I'm clear cause I think it's important, you don't consider the time still being revived by the defibs as i-frames, just the short .1-.2 seconds you have of invincibility where you can act

[shell sonnet]

halfway talking my ass off
but you get the point

[compact tundra]

I think that's fine tho, cause you are sacrificing something, your teammates revive time. By defibing and leaving them in the dust they're gonna die immediately and it'll reset their coin time

[alpine sphinx]

Yes, sorry, with I frames I mean anytime that you can act and have invincibility. Things like the nullifier where you can't do any major actions either don't count as i-frames to me

[chilly granite]

nullifier would be more like traditional iframes but ok

[shell sonnet]

thing is, youre not (as in, you dont have to do that)

you can just as well stand by them as they revive

just instead of being a sitting duck, its just a 1v1
and even if the enemy wins it, now they die to the revived

[chilly granite]

hahah I just convinced my teammate not to steal so we don't have to play against mhm team with cl40

man that's crazy

my teammates just ran away from the last cashout and didn't contest it so we just get 3rd when we should've had 2nd or first

[compact tundra]

Yea but that's presuming a 1v1, and yes in a scenario where defib's can turn your 1v1 into a 2v1 they are good (outside of fighting melees and most heavies) but that's that one scenario where the defibs are a better choice, which I think is fair, there will be scenarios where the defibs are better and this is one of them

[chilly granite]

by far the reason why everony runs defibs is not because they are good but rather becuase the alternatives are crap

like, h+ glitch and gateway are beyond op but most lights skip at least one, if not two of them

because light has funner gadgets

[compact tundra]

Ok with the I-frames question addressed I honestly rarely notice them when fighting defib's but I wouldn't mind if they were removed. To me it's kinda not necessary to remove them but it's equally not necessary to keep them. And it is valuable, that's why it's still a good gadget, I just don't think it's so valuable that it's broken, it's more that medium has a lot of mediocre gadgets that can't compete with flexible revives

[cerulean furnace]

The I-frames are barely there. Once you know they are gonna be there for like ONE second then you can play around that, it's not enough time for the contestant to do anything most of the time

[compact tundra]

I don't even think it's a full second

[cerulean furnace]

especially since it seems like they're gone once the defibbed guy does ANYTHING, atleast feels that way to me

[compact tundra]

And on flamethrower that shit don't mean anything, my heavy eats defib's

[shell sonnet]

that scenario is far too common for it to be written off
and it does so in a frustrating way

[unkempt moss]

My fellow flame. Do you run antigrav?

[compact tundra]

On flame no but on lewis, minigun, and sledge yes. I'll run it on platforms and powershift tho

[serene glade]

The Iframes just give a minor comfort if reviving in the open. Making it harder to just see that the revive is happening and drop a nade on it. Defib is one of the strongest gadgets in the game tho and I don't understand how people don't see value especially when complaining about the poke meta where you need to gap close after a pick or something where you can instantly revive someone and cover with the burst damage of said poke weapons while they cross to close the gap. Mediums kit is boring as shit yes but in no fucking world are we saying gas mine is better than defib

[compact tundra]

I don't think so, I think it's a fair upside and a decent scenario for them. If your chasing t medium solo and they pop defib's you have time to retreat back to your team, it's not an instant win button

[unkempt moss]

Anti grav is one of the hardest counters for defib and gateway in the game. It's so strong.

[compact tundra]

That's fair, I use it really aggressively but since I'm flame I don't even have to register defibs and gateway isn't that common unless I'm in ranked and in ranked my RPG and Lockbolt take care of lights

[shell sonnet]

and just let them have the revive for free?
give up the advantage you skillfully wrung out of them?

the enemy gets to try again, and again, and again, until youre attritioned so far down they just end up flattening you

[unkempt moss]

I always think people play cashout exclusively like I do.

[compact tundra]

I mean they get the free defib but you get your setup on the cash box, and the person being defibed is in danger to your team if you trade with the medium, even more danger if you do some damage to them. And defibs have a pretty long charge time so they cant go again and again and again, they get one up and then have to hand rez the other presuming the medium is the last standing, and if they aren't then it's a 3v3 where one of them is half health by default

[chilly granite]

othat's kinda my point, the defib doesn't need to be good at all, to still be far better than gas mine

the bar for 3rd best gadget on medium is rock bottom

[serene glade]

If I was to ever play medium seriously I'd run the same shit. Goo grenade, movement, defib. I think you could add any gadget and nothing is replacing a defib ever. It's just too insane of a value in this sort of game

[chilly granite]

with coining being this bad yes

[unkempt moss]

Glitch is crazy strong dumbass

[serene glade]

remove quick coin

[unkempt moss]

Also you love breach drill these days

[serene glade]

id love for coins to be better/valuable someway to where more often you see less and less teams in the final round with 4 coins

[serene glade]

if im not playing anything off meta i will take my life

[unkempt moss]

Thats why we lose all the time.

[serene glade]

of course

[unkempt moss]

My hammer can only carry so hard

[serene glade]

whens your hammer leaving dogass status btw?

[shell sonnet]

it doesnt matter if you get to set up the box, if they wipe you, its all lost anyways
which they are likely to do if you need to waste all your items, just for them to come back anyways

having to rely on your teammates isnt a good balance argument
if you look at it on a 1:1 basis, both players have their impact
but one of them gets to summon up a 2nd player, turning it into a 2v1 (1,5v1 if you insist on it)
it skews the scales heavily, comparable to 150dmg rpg back in the day just removing any light from a team-fight equation
if you want teammates to matter, then you should expect theirs to run it as well

repeating again a bunch was a bit hyperbole
just getting to remove a mistake this easily is strong enough
especially if you arent camping the statue to take advantage of even the small amount of risk

to the last point, its a 3v3, which shouldve been a 2v3 with disadvantage, after they lost the initial engagement
defib shouldnt be able to make up for it this easily

[unkempt moss]

Hopefully soon, its getting out of hand

[shell sonnet]

i can feel my brain power leaving and i think i just wanna call it before it gets worse again

[unkempt moss]

It'll be like my SA where just one day we wake up and its really good one day after two years of being actively throwing.

[shell sonnet]

so maybe another day

maybe ill have the energy to explain with clips some time

[chilly granite]

respawn timer should be way lower for the first teammate who dies

like, you should be able to coin immediately

[shell sonnet]

then it would never snowball

[chilly granite]

cooldwon no reset

[shell sonnet]

at least they cant cheese the team fight with defib that way, since they need to walk all the way back while their team is getting rolled

which then means theyre alone

[compact tundra]

That I disagree with, I think the lowest it should be is 20 (talking about ranked here) and adding the ability to spend coins to change from your reserve I think would be fair and a way to encourage coin usage and use your coin advantage

[shell sonnet]

where did you come from again unjust?
primarily ranked?

[chilly granite]

coin to change to reserves is the minimum change it should recieve

like, baseline

but you have to run to your teammates anyway after coining, sometimes the spawns are fucked, so it's gonna be like, 5second until you are in fight, best case scenario, more realistically, 15 on heavy or medium

idk how often you guys coin in ranked but unlesss they also improve the spawns the cooldown should not be more than 5s, if you expecte people to rejoin fight at 20

and coining in such a way shold be to rejoin fight, or it'll still be directly wors ethan defib

coin should be a competitor to defib for 1 person, after one person coins the cooldown should then be like 30seconds

[unkempt moss]

Can we add a M1918 BAR to the game?

For heavy

Or maybe the HCAR

[serene glade]

you can get a nice tall glass of shut the hell up

[unkempt moss]

reborted

I think a big bullet lh1 for the heavy would be cool.

[chilly granite]

man I feel like the gain and loss for both 1st and last are too big for cashout

like, I'm not twice as good for getting 1st rather than 2nd, I'm like, 10% better than them

[chilly granite]

litearlly solo won the first fight by fullflashing two enemies too hahaha

[grave pumice]

For the love of everything if they don’t nerf that fuck ass grenade launcher on medium bro

[serene glade]

lmfao

i hope your games are nothing but cl40s

[chilly granite]

cl40 splash radius feels too strong and direct hits don't feel strong enough imho

[serene glade]

the cl40 splash radius is ass

[chilly granite]

when i played it, it felt super generous

it's like 3 meters?

[serene glade]

you get meaningless damage unless you are hitting direct hits

[chilly granite]

I just flashed 4 enemy teams and stole box hahahaa

grand finals in a super hard lobby lol

[dull sky]

high risk

[chilly granite]

we were 3rd, there wasn't enough time to do anything else, low risk high reward

[dull sky]

fr

[unkempt moss]

That had to be an insanely hard lobby if there was four enemy teams.

[chilly granite]

feels like it bro

first round was rough, my team griefed so hard

bruh ijust died to a dualblades hiding under a atable

just solo'd

eehhh wasn't enough to win it but solo teamwipe to get one cashout was nice

[chilly granite]

losing 500rs for 7th/8th when you're 7th seed is stupid

my lights never let me go first as heavy, so i was always 1v3 lol

they should give medium a tf2 demo man nade launcher rahter than the annoying bs that is current cl40

whover said 0s coin cooldown would be broken is high as fuck, I just coined to try to defend my cashout, and I had to run 70 meters

i'm dash light and it was still enoguh time for a third team to come and steal our box

literally two rough matches and I wiped out more than the gains from getting 2nd in a challenging lobby

[slender fiber]

riot shield is such a cringe weapon

[serene glade]

thanks, didnt know what to run for my next game

[frail bison]

i love going against them 😍

[thin birch]

Same, riot and dual blades

[chilly granite]

how big is the back hitbox I swear

mans got an ass bigger than kim k

[spring spear]

yeah theyre practically sitting ducks when i run any AR or repeater

[alpine sphinx]

thats not true, medium gadgets are really good, but many of them are entirely situational. zip line is extremely valuable for team movement, so is jump pad, defi is S-tier like discussed, glitch mine is super valuable against dash lights, motion sensor is super valuable in many situations, data reshaper is super strong against any setup that uses turrets, mines, or any other deployables as well as grenades. APS is very strong against projectile weapons and grenades.
Medium gadgets are not bad by any means, you just have to change your playstyle slightly depending on who you are fighting.

And people dont like to do that, when they have their basic ass akm, defi, jumpad, nade loadout

[chilly granite]

do you need someone to explain whjy in ranked there's a bias to genericly good gadgets over entirely situattional gadgets, or can you owkr that one out?

full disclosure I run frag/flash on every class

[warm wasp]

https://youtu.be/SeVQnLz1_CM?si=7hOlbwq93AszUC32

[alpine sphinx]

no but a complaint that essentially boils down to "i dont want to think, give me something that is always the objectively best choice" is not a very good complaint

[unkempt moss]

Can we get a M1918 BAR or the HCAR as a weapon for heavies

[long nymph]

You know in ranked you can't swap your gadgets during the round right? It has to be done between. You can't react to what the enemy team is using.

[vale obsidian]

+1

I like situational much better when I can pick to use it in the right situation.

I don't like being stuck in situation my situational tool isn't made for.

[alpine sphinx]

Exactly, which is why the current meta is boring as hell because everyone wants to go for that one load out that has everything. If you buff underperformers, especially those that require other tactics to counter, you increase gameplay variety simply because people will have to risk running against those comps. Having an option to ban a specific gadget or weapon could also be an interesting way to spice up ranked battles

[wary pulsar]

what weapon gadget do you like

[muted condor]

Simply adding reserve swapping in ranked would make people use a bigger verity of gadgets

[gritty smelt]

might as well just play qc or cashout at that point

reserve swapping in ranked? that's like saying you should be able to change your whole build between rounds. like from medium to light or whatever. just play casual.

[serene glade]

"would be interesting to add reserve swapping and see how ranked plays out"
"I'm insufferable and don't like trying new things filthy disgusting casual"

[gritty smelt]

it would destroy the purpose of the reserve if you were able to change it around in ranked. you might as well just be able to fully change your loadout in ranked as if you were in quick play
i also play exclusively quick play, so dont twist my words 💜

[serene glade]

All I do is twist words

[gritty smelt]

twisting your ospuze

[nimble viper]

https://medal.tv/games/the-finals/clips/lQeGhEmlNxvSepiLc?invite=cr-MSxwY0ksMjYyNDQ0ODk4&v=11

[muted condor]

Me when I don’t actually read the argument

[muted condor]

Ah I see now. Another none ranked player making claims about ranked

[slow linden]

Goo flame my beloved

[gritty smelt]

i did read it
and again, reserve swapping would just completely nullify any reason to have a reserve in the first place.
maybe making it so that the other gadgets are viable and less situational would help more than just making ranked into quick play in regards to the equipment system

[slow linden]

They need to limit it to only class and reserve in casual too I hate that people can just counterswap now

[muted condor]

You don’t even know what I’m talking about do you

[gritty smelt]

i love goo gun

[slow linden]

Side note how the FUCK did this guy not kill me

[gritty smelt]

it kinda sucks but i think im pretty flexible when it comes to switching, so it doesn't really bother me much

[gritty smelt]

basically you joined into a conversation about counterplay, and i did the same thing?

[muted condor]

I’m saying you should be able to use your reserves in ranked

[gritty smelt]

you.. can?

[runic gale]

Any mod or helper here?

[muted condor]

Currently you can’t outside of round changes and it’s stupid

[slow linden]

I am too,but I don't want to have the option,I want to win purely off of talent with my chosen class and weapon and not off of loadout being more or less meta or swapping to someone's exact hard counters and I want the same for others,if it's gonna be like this why does reserve even matter anymore

[gritty smelt]

oh lol
why do you think its stupid?
i think it's fine the way it is

[muted condor]

Because it stops you from using anything outside of the easy picks that don’t have direct counters and makes the game stale af

[slow linden]

Tbh that's the only reason I like ranked,people are forced to one trick,there is no counterswapping as it should be

[serene glade]

I'd love to see them try it out for a ranked season, maybe not allow it for final round. I don't see it becoming an issue at all during the 4teams portions

[gritty smelt]

counterswapping is annoying

[muted condor]

People only run goo, jump pad, defib because running anything else runs the risk of just throwing the round

[slow linden]

Counterswapping is milkless behavior

[muted condor]

Instead you can just get counter picked and get fucked up the ass all round with no way to fight back

[gritty smelt]

because everything else, outside of zip and mines/nades, is way too situational
the "basic" medium loadout is meta right now because of how versatile a med can make those two simple gadgets

[muted condor]

I’d even say it’d be reasonable to only allow gadget swapping and lock your weapon

[gritty smelt]

that's reasonable imo

[muted condor]

Currently running anything besides the top picks is throwing the round in ranked

[serene glade]

Anything to make the game less stale I'm begging

[slow linden]

That says more about the balance of the sandbox,if you're not running a boring automatic or poke there is always something that can counter you

[muted condor]

You can’t run niche stuff even if you’re good with it

[gritty smelt]

i fucking hate this poke meta

everyone runs and takes long sustained fights

[slow linden]

Because niche shit either needs buffs or entire reworks just to fit in the sandbox Because Embarks balance team is too busy putting crayons up their noses to code a decent gimmick weapon

[gritty smelt]

the repeater needs a nerf
the "nerf" it got barely counts. no one was hipfiring that thing anyway

[gritty smelt]

my beloved spear

[serene glade]

Embark nerfed it man, they put a lot of work into that

[muted condor]

Shak, dome, rpg will always be the top pick because it’s impossible to be bad. Weapons like the mini gun, spear, and deagles will never get to be as viable as long as gadgets are locked in ranked

[slow linden]

I preferred heal meta,I would kill for a heal meta as a minigun enjoyer

[gritty smelt]

the repeater nerf? lol
they nerfed the pike into the ground because it was "too versatile"
the repeater isn't?

[serene glade]

Yeah it's terrible now

[gritty smelt]

the heal meta was better than this

[slow linden]

I honestly think minigun needs strafing,hate that it glues your feet to the floor

[serene glade]

The .03 ads nerf is massive

[slow linden]

The last fun meta was season 4

[muted condor]

The only reason not to have gadget swapping is to appease the top ranks that hate having to deal with variety and change

[slow linden]

People just used whatever

[gritty smelt]

oh yeah it's so hard to use
but it's nothing compared to the defib nerf
that extra half a second fucked up a lot of people

[muted condor]

Daily fuck Esports post 🖕

[slow linden]

I hate dash meta,cloak meta was a more fun light meta but they gutted cloak because rubies complained

[gritty smelt]

id rather deal with cloak than dash

[slow linden]

Fuck esports

[serene glade]

I made fun of an Esports player in game feedback the other day and he DMed me saying how he could be top 10 in ranked if he tried and that he scrims

Might have been the biggest loser of all time ngl

[slow linden]

I'd rather both use and fight cloak than dash

[gritty smelt]

i can aim but those i frames are crazy
on top of that they have the highest damage weapons in the game
movement or poke, gotta pick one
cant have both

[gritty smelt]

i use grapple personally but i agree

[chilly granite]

This is a terrible take

Cashout already has reserve only swapping and it's nothing like
Qc

[slow linden]

Holy cornball he dmed you for fear of being made the clown,but ended up more of the clown

[slow linden]

I use grapple with db

[muted condor]

They are complete scum that kills games and don’t actually like playing games. Official Esports should be abolished completely

[serene glade]

Get this, there is no iframes on dash, that's just the servers being horrible

[gritty smelt]

i didnt say it was, thats what they want it to be

[serene glade]

He asked me what he should be doing since he's so good at the game, and I told him to go get some bitches

[slow linden]

They need to take arsenal swapping out of qc and the other casual gamemodes now that everything levels world tour

[gritty smelt]

i use grapple and xp or bow
if im using light at all

[slow linden]

Reserve only

[chilly granite]

Being forced to one trick is the opposite of what should happen in the eSports mode, eSports should reward versatility

[gritty smelt]

might as well be
everyone says it does

[muted condor]

You mean my sandbox shooter that advertises its self as being the most dynamic shooter out there should allow for dynamic variety of play styles?!

[slow linden]

With reserve you have a backup loadout or several backup weapons,that should be enough

[muted condor]

If you were allowed to use them that would be true

[slow linden]

Also fuck esports that shit has done irreversible stagnation and rot to this games balance

I miss the weekly balance tweaks this game will surely perish or at least not be as good as it could be without them

[muted condor]

Worse thing that happened to this game since terminal attack

[chilly granite]

It is, but you can't fucking use it in ranked except in round gaps and you don't know what the enemy brings except in final round

[serene glade]

I loved the horrible weekly dart throwing nerfs and buffs. Kept the game so fresh and fun

Now we get whatever the fuck is going on now

[slow linden]

They were honestly so good,the bad nerfs were usually whatever light and heavy cried about the most(coming from a heavy main)

[chilly granite]

And you can't tell if the enemy has reserve swapped In final round, so they can counter you and you have no way to deal with it

[serene glade]

If nothing happens on Thursday I might die of laughter

[muted condor]

Minor buffs and nerfs on a weekly is way healthier for a game than season drops of huge changes

[slow linden]

That's why in the final round you swap to something boring and reliable like akm or shak or m11,things that cannot be countered

[serene glade]

It was fine when things got nerfed beyond belief because they could just fix it next week.

[muted condor]

Just run the safe bet that you and everyone has been running for 2 years bro

[chilly granite]

That's boring and stupid

[slow linden]

True

[muted condor]

Yep

That’s why they should allow reserve swaps

Plus it’s not like you can just swap with no repercussions. You have to coin or team wipe to do it

[slow linden]

Yeah,it's ranked,everyone else is going to be playing like that because the vast majority of people have no soul and don't play ranked for fun

[muted condor]

“Ranked is like that because everyone else does it so you being forced to do it is fine” huh?

That is the weirdest train of thought

[serene glade]

Diamond and plat players hate to see my mgl coming

[slow linden]

Never said it was fine,it's just the world that we live in

[slow linden]

That piece of shit needs to detonate on impact with a player,I love it to death but it literally gets countered by walking at them and the cl40 doesn't if they're good with it

[muted condor]

Doesn’t have to be but embark doesn’t care about the player base at large anymore

The consequences of sucking up to the CCP

[slow linden]

They don't care about the real players anymore,if you use an AR or smg you're eating good

Simple bot weapons for simple bot people

[muted condor]

I wouldn’t be surprised if they outsourced the game to third party devs in China to work in the game

[serene glade]

It's funny I used to think it's dog shit, but now I only think it's dog shit 30-40% of the time

[muted condor]

You can see the influence on the game in the new cosmetics and update practices

[serene glade]

Its legit unplayable on fangwei tho

[slow linden]

That 30-40% is enough for me to rarely consider it,it needs to be able to do direct damage while keeping the bounces

[slow linden]

Try kyoto,fangwei it's usable in the apartments at least

And that mall building

[serene glade]

I'd love to see like 40 different things to it, but nothing will happen ever knowing embark. Kyoto it's alright but not amazing. Mgl best map is definitely nozomi and non sandstorm vegas

[slow linden]

Ngl Kyoto fucking sucks and I hate everything about it

[serene glade]

I don't mind non moving platform Kyoto. But I hate moving platforms in general

[muted condor]

It’s the worst map imo

[slow linden]

That variant of Kyoto is the main reason I hate the map,remove that variation

[serene glade]

Fang wei is my Kyoto. Shit is horrible

[slow linden]

Literally impossible to take those moving platforms on kyoto,they're just too high

[slow linden]

I like fang wei,I hate that one shitty little wooden building in the corner of the map with two big ass open courtyards and ponds and stairs and shit leading to it,Literally roof camp central if a poke team is on the cashout there it's unpushable

[serene glade]

I hate the spread out verticality, endless angled buildings that also have layered verticality. The construction building with about 45 different angles to peek. Just bad to me all around

[muted condor]

What’s the map with the big black and blue building that’s open in the middle with a jump pad?

[slow linden]

Idk even as a flamethrower main and it being a difficult map for me I still like it

[muted condor]

Has the jump pads that cross all the voids

[slow linden]

Skyway

[muted condor]

I love that map

[serene glade]

I'd love fortune stadium more if the buildings didn't collapse over a slight breeze

[muted condor]

Fits the games vibe and is just fun

[slow linden]

You know what map I hate? The cns map I forget what it's called,used to love it but poke players killed it for me

[muted condor]

The new maps don’t feel like stadiums made for the game like the ogs

[muted condor]

I never like that one

[slow linden]

I liked the vaiiya cns one

Apart from like one or two cashout locations

[muted condor]

That’s a cool one. Spawns are a bit fucked

[slow linden]

Spawns are fucked on most maps in quick cash

[unkempt moss]

Monaco is the biggest pile of dogshit

[slow linden]

I love monaco though poke is ass on there

[indigo nexus]

monaco seemed to be the best considered map for a long time

[slow linden]

Yeah,poke is unplayable on there that's why it's good

[indigo nexus]

the s1-s3 maps were all broadly disliked in comparison

[slow linden]

Wait I might be thinking of another map,monaco is still good tho

[unkempt moss]

What do you feel though if you had to go off of your heart and not general consensus

[indigo nexus]

I don't really have any opinions on what maps I like

if I play a mode that only has some maps then I start to prefer the other maps, but that's not due to the maps themselves

[unkempt moss]

I want to know what you think Sausage. Have an opinion on it.

Tell me what you feel about it.

[indigo nexus]

I could perhaps talk about which cashout spots I like more than others? But the maps themselves are too complex

none of them 'annoy' me

[unkempt moss]

Nope. I want a general opinion on what your favorite map is then.

[indigo nexus]

though, seoul under construction is notably better than regular seoul, so that's something

[unkempt moss]

Okay. Why?

[indigo nexus]

adds a fun extra bit of environment which is uniquely central, with players having quick access to it from almost any other part of the map

[unkempt moss]

There we go.

[slow linden]

Moving platform kyoto,if you don't hate that variation of Kyoto you are not a human to me

[unkempt moss]

Dont listen to him Sausage. If you like that its okay.

[indigo nexus]

there are very few things that I 'hate'

[unkempt moss]

What's the worst map in the game?

[slow linden]

Yeah some people like eating only stale bread and tap water that doesn't mean it's what they deserve to eat

[unkempt moss]

Im trying to find the tin man's heart. Its okay to have an opinion that doesnt coincide with the general opinion. If he likes moving platforms Kyoto then that's fine.

[indigo nexus]

my friend called that 'quite poetic'

[unkempt moss]

Sausage, what's your least favorite map? But then phrase it as "x is unplayable dogshit" We're being incendiary and coarse on purpose.

[indigo nexus]

I thought of a way I can create answers, I think my favourite map would be fangwei city because I've barely played it

it would be the most interesting

[unkempt moss]

No we're doing an exercise in free expression.

[final cave]

Any1 else think mesh sheild should get skins ?

[serene glade]

i think coolsville sucks

[unkempt moss]

So novelty is something you value?

[indigo nexus]

yes

[unkempt moss]

What are some other parameters you draw value judgments from?

[indigo nexus]

locations which seem to have some capability above the baseline to make for interesting / creative plays

[unkempt moss]

Locations as in different cashouts, right?

[indigo nexus]

to a small extent, also how it looks

[indigo nexus]

anywhere on the map, but those are the most important points

[unkempt moss]

What map has the most amount of exciting chashout spots? And which one the least.

[indigo nexus]

I don't know, my memory is not exactly encyclopaedic.

[unkempt moss]

I have a hard time believing that.

Which is the best/worst aesthetically?

Give me your top 3 cashout spots you like.

[indigo nexus]

I like some of the visual aspects of nozomi/citadel a lot. Kyoto can look quite nice but it depends on the time of year (not a big fan of the snowy look). Vegas looks generally nice.

[unkempt moss]

Okay. That's good stuff right there.

What's the least pleasing map to look at?

[indigo nexus]

I don't think I can remember them well enough. I can try to name some that I think I like?

The cashout on sys horizon in the yellow museum building with a walkway above it.
The cashout on seoul, central in the under construction area.
Monaco front-of-cathedral cashout

these are a bit arbitrary

[unkempt moss]

No I can visualize exactly what youre talking about.

[indigo nexus]

Bernal, I think?

[unkempt moss]

Is it just the architecture youre not a fan of? Its kind of samey through the entire map.

[indigo nexus]

the buildings are mostly not very visually interesting.

monaco is worse on that front, but the buildings themselves and their arrangement looks nice

[unkempt moss]

For sure.

I can see why you like Nozomi. Each area kind of has its own distinct look and playstyle.

[chilly granite]

bernals tdm map selection is ASSS

I enjoy bernal on cashout/point break, but on tdm it's the worst map

skyway is horrible on tdm too

seoul and fortune are best on tdm

the quality of tdm maps is inversly proportionate to how easy or viable it is to roofsit

they shuld make it so that if spend too mcuh time walking on a roof, it starts to be come slippy, like shingles falling off hahaha

citadel is great

[primal lark]

The Seoul part of skyway is the only minimap that is good in tdm

[plain mauve]

its so good

[sudden pewter]

FengWei. It’s a beautiful map based on a beautiful culture that is completely spotless and has never had any issues ever historically

Vegas has some awesome cashout spots (especially in the AA building imo) but my favorite cashout spot in the game is on the moving platform that weaves near hospital on Seoul

With Winch you can get it off the ride at any point which allows you to play to whatever strengths you have and it’s very dynamic and cool

The server room in Nozomi is probably my second favorite due to the checkered floor and I once fought a cloak light there that didn’t know the floor gives him away

[serene glade]

i need to drop the cashout into the checkered room more often tbh. i hate holding the giant open area above it

[unkempt moss]

||We're watching you...||

[chilly granite]

It's so annoying I can't react to c4tter posts cuz I want to fire emoji them but I can't

[chilly granite]

Never even thought of doing it but that's such a good idea, the room above sucks but checkered is very fun to play

Fengwei is my favourite map overall but nozomi is a solid contender, but it depends on how annoying the enemies are

Like it's fun because the layout supports a lot of play styles, but supporting a lot of play styles also means annoying crap like flamethrower, cl40, riot, CB are very playable

CB isnt just playable it's crazy

[sudden pewter]

When you prove to me you’ve earned the right you will be able to do so

[chilly granite]

Bruh it's not like I use reacts for anything toxic lol

[sudden pewter]

Not a moment sooner. Others before you have earned redemption, so can you.

[chilly granite]

Fire emoji. Jpeg

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/consequences-cat-gif-6581548611274851813

[chilly granite]

If actions have consequences what action lost me react rights?

[analog pewter]

they should change data reshaper so that if you press reload with it out, you get a wheel of all the canisters (plus potted plant) and itll turn anything in its radius into the selected item

would also be cool if alt-fire turned things back into what they were, fully primed
imagine reshaping your own turret/mines setup, and then just dropping it on someone by turning it back from a harmless pile of potted plants

[sudden pewter]

Not sure I’m on board with being able to select exactly what you get but at least the IPAD could show the recipe list

I shouldn’t need to tattoo the alchemical process to get a red barrel on my inner thigh for easy access

[oblique crypt]

It would also be cool if friendly grenades had a circle, so you could reshape your own gas grenade into a glitch grenade, glitch into frag, frag into smoke, and so on.

[slow linden]

I smoked and forgot what we were talking about lmao

[serene glade]

data reshaper could be sick but its so weird rn. the nerf to its charges because it countered turret was hilarious, but right now all it really does aside from remove barricades (demat can go around them anyway), is make it so the barrel you want/need has a 2/7 chance of spawning instead of 1/7

MAYBE parrying grenades but thats just not worth it lmao

[sudden pewter]

Maybe a reclassification of what data reshaper can work on is needed? Currently it counters everything and needs to be balanced accordingly. If it just targeted offensive gadgets(?) there could be more room for it to breathe?

Adding more utility could be nice for sure but I wouldn’t want it to be a “instead of a gas grenade I can make 6 gas grenades”

[serene glade]

it needs something, i think the concept of basically having any grenade you want at your disposal is a neat gadget, but when saying that its sounds insanely busted. meanwhile it can also basically invalidate a spec and numerous gadgets. its something they should revisit/look at. but again this is embark

[analog pewter]

i think maybe they should just double its utility by letting alt-fire cycle backwards. so any can is 2 other given options instead of just one

[unkempt moss]

Data reshaper should work on lights since they have intelligence of a gas barrel (they just run in and explode then get lit on fire to make them go away)

[serene glade]

youre igniting lights? they ususally just dash and put it out

[analog pewter]

they should make smoke grenade faster to deploy so it's easier to use on reaction to incoming fire
i hate how slow some of the grenades are to use man its so ugh

takes ten business days to pop smoke

[chilly granite]

dash doesn't put it out, fire has a minimum exposure time before the dot sticks

even as heavy you can run into fire and out again fast enough and it won't stick

[serene glade]

i know, im just spreading misinformation

[chilly granite]

I should make a wiki account and update it but I don't wanna leak my ip or make an account on a website that probably has suspicoous security practicies

I've put all the research iv'e done in the wiki discord channel so if anyone wants to use it, it's there

but like, the pyro grenade damage is just wrong lol

[sudden pewter]

I can agree with that, definitely better than a universal barrel gadget

[unkempt moss]

Explosives also have a minimum exposure time too it seems

[serene glade]

they needed that

[indigo nexus]

It seems like there’s little risk, it’d be a standalone account with no need for info to be tied to your identity

[unkempt moss]

He's hiding some skeletons in his closet bud. That was a major self report

[sudden pewter]

I’d like some sort of in-game explanation for why Red barrels are so….iffy

#🎓┇eggcademy undercooked AF this egg still raw

[sudden pewter]

My ass throwing 3 red barrels at the crane trying to topple it and they all ping off it

[unkempt moss]

A batch of training red barrels got mixed with the rest. So they just dispersed them to stadiums anyway. Embarks orders

[serene glade]

my ass throws red barrels at lights and direct hits do 20 damage

[unkempt moss]

They dashed faster than the explosion

[serene glade]

they should slow the game down when they dash and make me watch a cutscen of them dashing out of an explosion

[sudden pewter]

YOU JUST WANT THEM TO INSTAKILL LIGHTS BECAUSE YOURE BAD AT VIDEO GAMES AND HATE LIGHT BECAUSE YOURE BAD WERE ALREADT THE MOST PRONE TO PUNISHMENT RAAAAGGHHH or something idk but imo Lights should definitely lose some teeth if they come into contact with an active red barrel

[unkempt moss]

The terrible servers do not give dash pseudo iframes

[sudden pewter]

QTE

[sudden pewter]

frame fallacy is cope. The only thing Dash does is ruin weapon balance

[unkempt moss]

Are we still larping as Chinese propagandist

[indigo nexus]

And make ‘Chuds’ mad!

[sudden pewter]

Silence Gaijin

[serene glade]

wait this is a larp, i was getting into it

[muted condor]

You were larping?!

[sudden pewter]

This is my dojo, and I refuse to be disrespected in my dojo

[muted condor]

https://tenor.com/view/nalog-gif-25906765

[unkempt moss]

I like to leave it up to others interpretation

[slow linden]

You should NOT be able to reload and look around while dashing,shit gives the m11 infinite upkeep,I can already 1v3 a whole team with just cloak m11,I don't need to 1v6 the quick cash lobby with dash reloads

[serene glade]

you will dash inside the player models of the enemy and you will reload your gun

[slow linden]

Do reddit lights truly only play to do that?

[slow linden]

You will hide inside someone's hitbox with light melee and lawn mow them while they physically cannot shoot you

[serene glade]

i ran inside a heavys player model as a heavy and it like teleported me to the top of their head and spazzed out the camera and they couldnt shoot me. was really proud of embark

[slow linden]

Yeah they need to fix that

[unkempt moss]

Feature not a bug! Ni hao!

[serene glade]

GUANGDONG TIGERS, NIHAO NIHAO

[unkempt moss]

I don't like that embark personally deleted my message earlier

[sudden pewter]

GLORY TO JADE EMPEROR
LONG MAY HE REIGN

[slow linden]

I think they deleted the one where I explained why I disappeared 3 hours ago

4 hours ago

[sudden pewter]

Embark may continue to exist for another 5 days because of the model reload buffs making it finally decent after 2 or so seasons

[unkempt moss]

All I said was
"Im physically attracted to my father.

Revert sword nerfs"

They are very serious about the sword nerfs it seems

[slow linden]

Nah glass them

[serene glade]

they left up mine where i said melee should have a reload where you stroke the sledgehammer down so get fucked

[slow linden]

Yeah that's so crazy that they really like the sword nerfs that much

[unkempt moss]

I guess they can keep it the same if they need to

[muted condor]

I need to log into my alt acount and post bait in #👂┇game-feedback for Catter to find again

[slow linden]

Idea: "nerf spear"

[muted condor]

Add stamina to melee

[serene glade]

what are the vegas odds on getting a good patch this thursday

[muted condor]

Statistically 0

[unkempt moss]

I choose to believe in embark. I believe in hope.

[muted condor]

No

[serene glade]

somehow palpatine has returned

[muted condor]

DOOM
It’s fucking over
Game is fucking dead

[slow linden]

Give melees an alternative attack for when you press both triggers

[muted condor]

Spear throw

[unkempt moss]

I tried that with the hammer.

I was made a pariah

[slow linden]

I thought it used to have a charged overhead in the open beta at one point

[slow linden]

They do not want whimsy or combos

[unkempt moss]

The hammer throw will be a thing.

Uppercut into hammer throw. This Thursday

[slow linden]

I want a bare handed weapon with upper cuts and machinegun punches and a grab attack but I will never get that

[serene glade]

"hey guys heres a new mode where the sledge right click hits up in the air"
"oh cool is this gonna be a neat way to rework the sledge like youve been saying"
"fuck you"

[unkempt moss]

Did the nerf happen before or after the mode.

Maybe they saw the uptick in the hammer usage from the mode and said they need to nerf it.

[serene glade]

season 6 was the sledge mode, season 7 launch was the sledge nerfs

[unkempt moss]

Yeah. Embark saw the 100% pick rate and was like this thing must be way too strong.

[slow linden]

Also some weapons really should do knockback but we're never getting that

[serene glade]

iirc the sledge one tap on lights was brought up a bunch so i figured theyd so something cool like nerf that m1 but add the uppercut. but then just flat nerfs. embark doesnt disappoint

[sudden pewter]

After iirc

[slow linden]

Melee,explosives,maybe shotguns and maybe the minigun

[unkempt moss]

Imagining that embark nerfed it because they can't read their own data is so funny.

[sudden pewter]

Embark has proven they can’t wdym

They can’t correlate their own metrics to performance

[serene glade]

was such a weird time to drop that mode, i swear it was a way to test out adding that to base game, but instead its just a piss in my mouth

[slow linden]

Open beta 400 damage Sledge when?

[sudden pewter]

They really thought we’d gargle instead of spitting

[serene glade]

they want us to say thank you

[slow linden]

Soon they'll be gargling when they hemorrhage more money

[unkempt moss]

Arc is printing money. They'll be alright

[sudden pewter]

For how long tho

[slow linden]

Not for long,running out of content

[serene glade]

its funny listening to the dev comments about the game philosphy for arc, and then the finals is "esports its vital"

[sudden pewter]

Yeah fuck that shit

[slow linden]

Kill esports

[unkempt moss]

Depends if they can fix the cheating problem i guess

[sudden pewter]

Embark focusing millions to cater to the 10% (if that) of people the largely casual playerbase actively interested in playing in a highly competitive setting

[slow linden]

They really should learn from valve's mistakes

[sudden pewter]

Honestly not super optimistic about the games future, which is wild given all the QoL we got at this seasons launch. Followed by the new flagship gamemode not having QA and lackluster balance.

[slow linden]

The sad part is the new gamemode is the best thing they've given us in months

[serene glade]

Instead of crushing it with a rock you are crushing it with a brick today bud

[slow linden]

They gave us seasoned rotted cabbage instead of dogshit boiled in cat piss

[sudden pewter]

PointBreak fucks and I love it but holy shit clearly Embark didn’t playtest it because any idiot could have suggested “maybe we should prevent the defenders from being able to drag the objective into their spawn” like holy shit

I’ve been playing ElderScrollsOnline as they’ve just fired their old leadership and got new ones. And the moment they set their pigglywigglies into the office they started to jam out clams out.

• QoL
• Balance
• Long standing issues addressed
• Better communication
• Predatory MTX axed
  Just a bunch of gripes I’ve had for YEARS overnight disappearing

[slow linden]

Eso pvp is honestly really fun

[sudden pewter]

Embark is Swedish, even if the game is published by a company directly controlled by a despot nation why the fuck can’t they put their best foot forward? What are they afraid of?

Communicate ffs it isn’t rocket science

[slow linden]

Just know no one else who even plays the game or plays on my team

Or on Xbox

[sudden pewter]

“Hey guys, a lot of our manpower is being siphoned to ensuring this years TGM is a monumental waste of time. So balance will be on the back burner for a month or two.”

It’s not that hard

[chilly granite]

it's proof that embark has no good players on their dev team/qa team, like have they never heard of cashbox manipulation? gravity vortex?

[sudden pewter]

“This week our balance team is hyper focused on addressing which color the teams nails should be painted, also the MGL rework was scrapped”

[chilly granite]

I shouldn';t bully embark I'm gonna get banned

[serene glade]

It's wild to me seeing all the positive changes apex makes like adding all the perks attached to armor level up, character reworks. A game from EA. And this swedish "equivalent of kissing your dad on the lips" embark can't make any fun changes or change anything over .03 ads speed nerfs

[sudden pewter]

It’s been 4 seasons since the melee rework was brought up in the S5(?) AMA stream and we’ve still not heard a word on it

[sudden pewter]

Another 17 skins for the ARN 🔔

[serene glade]

The melee "rework" was quite possibly the most nothing burger thing of all time. They thought they did something with that

[unkempt moss]

Saudis bought EA, not the Chinese. That's the difference I guess

[serene glade]

Is that why cotw other than marketing is elite

[unkempt moss]

Yes

[sudden pewter]

Loba will wear a Hijaab in her new skin where she educates execute victims with a Quran

[unkempt moss]

These are the sacrifices that must be made

Pick your flavor of propaganda

[sudden pewter]

You will continue to pay $30 for a premium Battlepass and the extra revenue will go towards making more texture swap skins that are then sold to you instead of upgrading the servers

We will continue to obfuscate server information and ping so you don’t realize how bad things are

Basic online chat features that were ironed out a decade ago are still not in-game because we tried to reinvent the wheel and stopped half way

The club system will never be expanded upon because we tacked it onto the game like a stickynote

2 years in and we don’t know what we want the game to be. But ESports is vital to the games future

I complain, bitch, moan, and spray shit on the walls like a water hose out of love for the game. I’m frustrated with how the developers handle the game and the community. I know you read this, cowards.
FIGHT ME ON THE ESPORT ROCK. You want my viewership? You don’t even need to win, you just need to earn it.

[alpine sphinx]

Esports is going to ruin this game

[sudden pewter]

No, it’ll save it!!! Buy more bundles paypig.

[alpine sphinx]

Right right, my bad

[sudden pewter]

Waiter, waiter, another $12 ESPORT team bundle please

[slow linden]

I miss Vegas turrets,also I miss bank it ffa

Normal bank it sucked but ffa bank it was cool as fuck

Wish loadouts weren't locked tho

Goo flame goes hard as fuck when you roam and flank one guy with it

[compact tundra]

I think esports could work fine but they need to be more realistic about how to approach this.

1. Let the community, an esports org, or a few specific employees hired on to be TO's run the majors. The devs themselves should not be running the majors and the majors in no way should affect the game itself. If they don't wanna shake up the meta before you tournaments then make ranked and the majors lock at the beginning of that respective season and update them after the majors are over, maintaining the current meta for a tournament shouldn't in any way affect the content of the game

2. They need to stop trying to imitate other competitive shooters. We saw this clearly in season 3 and we can still see this today through their refusal to let unique weapons be viable and their insistence on maintaining the current poke meta. This game needs to play into its strengths otherwise why would anyone who doesn't play this game ever tune into the majors. Look at the most popular esports games and you'll see 1 of 2 things. It's either a fucking massive game with a sweaty player base that is likely to tune into tournaments (Valorant, CoD, league of legends), or it's a game that has managed to make it's comp scene engaging to watch even just as a spectator that doesn't play the game (CS-go/2, apex, overwatch, smash bros.). They can't keep trying to emulate other games without actually looking at what makes comp scenes work.

3. Let the game itself be the spectacle, they keep trying to add arbitrary spectacle to the game when all the glamor we would need should be in the kits themselves, we should let the sheer uniqueness of this game draw the crowd rather then arbitrarily trying to make the majors look cool while keeping 90% of the games content unviable. Let us see mach 3 swords, let us see KS-23's and sledges destroying the map to their advantage, let us see MGLs and CL-40s hitting crazy trigonometry shots and mine combos, spears hitting crazy winch combos and stylish throws, this game needs to let its uniqueness draw the crowd, not just flashy marketing pushes that are only pushed to players who already play.

And the sum of all these parts is community sentiment. For an esports scene to work the players have to want it to work. By ignoring the game itself, sacrificing content for the sake of the scene, and refusing to have any discussion with your community that has soured everyone's view on esports as a place in this game when it really could work. All the prices are right there, just polish them and let them shine.

[serene glade]

Smash bros mentioned

[compact tundra]

I'm sorry, I am a sinner and I will sin again, I watch pro melee

[sudden pewter]

Disgusting. You’ve been moved to F tier along with the LoL players

[open lava]

I bought the white AK with the “venom” finish to it. The design moves on the shop but when you equip it in game play, it is fixed. I feel kinda scammed seeing it was 1600 currency

[compact tundra]

It is reactive to your combat and support score. The higher your combat the more the venomous stuff takes over, the higher your support score the less venomous stuff there is.

[open lava]

Oh that’s amazing. I’ll give it a go and see how it behaves.

[sudden pewter]

It’s a mythic skin, iirc the shop desc explains how it works

[muted condor]

Hey, some of us can’t read

[compact tundra]

It does but not everyone reads the description for cosmetics so I get not understanding it

[sudden pewter]

Imagine not reading the lore smh

Fake fan

[exotic vortex]

maybe a repitor mythic skin coming ?

[sudden pewter]

Repitor?

[exotic vortex]

the medium wepaon

[sudden pewter]

Ah. The repeater

[exotic vortex]

CB01

[sudden pewter]

I’d assume Mythics for all weapons will be a thing eventually, but no. Currently we have no info on Mythics beyond “they exist now and cost more”

[muted condor]

Repitor on my sledge tell I cash out

[sudden pewter]

She break it on my cash it while she smash it

Cuz it’s the WORLDS GREATEST GAME SHOW

[muted condor]

Banking on my spear quick cash style

[unkempt moss]

Why aren't the teams named after the actual sponsors for TGM

[muted condor]

That would take effort

They like TGM because it means that don’t have to actually do anything and just fuck off until it’s over

[sudden pewter]

Because branding

[unkempt moss]

Then the esports bundles could have been actual merch people wanted

[muted condor]

Just buy the reskins bro

[sudden pewter]

No, the ESPORT team exist outside of The Finals

They play other games so the most Embark could do is give them in universe branding that don’t match their colors

Aside from a few, like Ospuze and the horse folk both having yellow

Would have been cooler if the team cosmetics were more in-line with established sponsors but I’ll bet Embark couldn’t get them to sign on without some concessions to prop up their fledgling Esports scene

[unkempt moss]

Could have been cool.

There's a couple things in the packs that look cool. Ape squad has a few things but its not worth the money

[compact tundra]

One of the teams had a gateway skin and it's literally the only gateway skin in the game besides the unlockables

[sudden pewter]

I really hope we don’t get an Overwatch situation where Embarf feels the need to spend a shit ton of money to fool people into thinking there’s a thriving ESports scene

[unkempt moss]

I'll have to look. Also calling anti grav Calvin the Cube instead of Andy Grav is such a throw

[sudden pewter]

Majority of players don’t seem to care, it’s a novelty that brings 5/10 mediocre cosmetic recolors

[sudden pewter]

This him on the dev team

Rudy the Rhombus was their second choice

[unkempt moss]

There's no way tgm was profitable.

I would have taken Rudy tbh. Call him Rowdy Rudy

[solid heart]

Why is more than half the weapons in this game a disadvantage to use in a fight. Everyone uses the same 2 guns for every class. You can’t even have fun because literally everyone is using the meta with the fastest ttk. Lights are in danger always because every gun that’s good can delete lights like nothing. Bows, snipers, Sh1, uzi. The most used weapons in the game is my guess. Why? Because you don’t need any skill to use them point at enemy pull trigger. There’s no bullet drop on snipers, the bows are wayyy to easy to use, shotgun is a literal one shot to the head, 2 shots for anything else. And the Uzi has the easiest recoil pattern I’ve seen in any game. Like actually I don’t know where they got the concepts for these guns. In every other fps I’ve ever played the fastest ttk guns have the hardest recoil patterns and it’s for a reason. I have 6k hours into R6 and counter strike. Never have I started playing a game and dominated so easily. Most of my world tour matches I have 15+ kills and the matchmaking gives me literally noobs who literally don’t know what’s going on. The whole game feels abandoned and unpolished. The balance in this game is literally a teeter-totter all the way on the ground on one side. You can’t use off meta things and do well because everything that’s meta counters all the stuff you would want to use. I’m a dagger main and I literally feel like they’re targeting me. They could take the one shot mechanic out and just make the fucking weapon viable in a fight. Make it lunge forward while you attack or just give it something to make it actually fun and useable. But the devs don’t seem to care. They probably don’t even play their own games so they have no idea what’s it’s like being in the lobby looking at the same fucking guns and meta loadouts over and over and over again. It’s not fun. Also the matchmaking in this game is fucking terrible. I get 2 noobs while full 3 stacks of comp players shit on my teammates. What the fuck devs?

[deep karma]

Well, Sniper does have bullet drop past a certain point, I don't think Sniper and Bow see much use in non-casual play, and shotguns do not have a headshot bonus and none of them one shot anything but Light.

There are many weapons that don't see much use in a more "trying to win" environment though, I'd agree!

[west aurora]

frags aren't everything, randomly picking people with cheesy dagger backstabs doesn't mean a thing if the rest of their team can just pick them up after

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/horse-tiktok-spin-spinning-horse-gif-2562309587417970705

[deep karma]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407626697064579072/1311026459116306534/1732437357212062.gif

[unkempt moss]

Who the hell are these guys

[sudden pewter]

I didn’t know we had a Uzi in the game

[west aurora]

the M11 probably
SMG that feeds through the handle

[sudden pewter]

I hate them, make them go away.

https://tenor.com/view/shivering-dog-shiver-me-timbers-shiver-me-timbers-dog-gif-23060744

[unkempt moss]

I cant make the LEEP guy go away. He said hes pro in every game especially this one. So he will beat me up.

[deep karma]

I think Uzi is M11 / Mac10 or whatever.

[unkempt moss]

MacDonalds

[sudden pewter]

MacNCheese

[unkempt moss]

Nothing drives me more nuts than when someone GameFeeback posts in WepsNGadg

[sudden pewter]

If he has 6k hours in Siege he’d have loved terminal attack

[unkempt moss]

Missed his prime time.

[sudden pewter]

Nvm he called the archetypes classes. Opinions voided

Death for his dishonor. May his descendants forget his name.

[cerulean furnace]

Generally seems like they had no proper understanding of the game. Shotgun to the head insta mills despite there being no headshot mechanic for shotguns lol

[unkempt moss]

Its such a roller coaster. Lights are underpowered, then its too easy to win because 6 gorillion hours, then its back to him getting obliterated because of matchmaking.

[west aurora]

unless it's the ks

[unkempt moss]

No, KS no have heady

[cerulean furnace]

KS has no headshot Mechanic either

[sudden pewter]

I play Light and keep insta-dying to Lights. Light needs a nerf and also a buff.

[cerulean furnace]

Lights truly are an enigma

[sudden pewter]

KS is still a shotgun, it doesn’t have headshot capabilities regardless that it uses slugs.

[west aurora]

yeah that's the point
ks to the head doesn't kill

[unkempt moss]

Hes a dagger main that is mad that its not just a really good knife. Basically he wants to play sword.

[west aurora]

it just does flat 100

[serene glade]

I think hitting a KS shot within 2m on a light should carry their bodies like a loony toons cannon ball and then when it finally hits a wall they turn into a red mist

[cerulean furnace]

He's gonna love the sword

[sudden pewter]

I should be able to instakill but not be instakilled

[unkempt moss]

Such is life.

[cerulean furnace]

Complains about ttk, mains the fastest ttk weapon

"Technically"

[unkempt moss]

Its his teammate fault I swear

[west aurora]

if he's regularly dropping 14 bombs and his team is falling apart

it means he's getting picks that are irrelevant to what his team is actually trying to engage, probably the obj lol

[unkempt moss]

Of course. Dude is oblivious

[cerulean furnace]

U can pop off but unless u work in a team or do the objective it's pointless

[west aurora]

if you backstab a guy as a light then have to run off from the enemy medium and he just defibs, you did nothing lol

[serene glade]

Oh we are clowning that guys leep. No bullet points so I'm not reading that

[analog pewter]

i wouldnt mind a buff to the dagger M1 personally

[unkempt moss]

There's some tasty treats in there.

[west aurora]

no, dagger M1 -has- to be bad as long as it has an instakill on M2

[sudden pewter]

“Oh I beefed my instakill mechanic, oh well, M1”

[cerulean furnace]

How would u buff it? Personally it seems good that the M1 isn't that strong, it works more as a finisher or last resort

[deep karma]

What is Dagger M1 TTK vs Sword M1 TTK anyway

[west aurora]

dagger m1 ttk is just insanely bad lol

[analog pewter]

just swinging a teensy bit faster

[compact tundra]

It'd become toxic quick, the high RoF could make it really oppressive if buffed

[stoic garden]

what if m1 could also backstab, dealing like 100 dmg

[compact tundra]

Ok that would be fine

[cerulean furnace]

Ehh ur M2 already can basically instakill. Think it's fair to assume they don't want to make it too strong to incentive players to play it smart

[serene glade]

He is right tho, I don't think the devs play the game

[unkempt moss]

Dagger is about as good as it can get without being disgusting. Just needs help on the server side.

[unkempt moss]

Broken clock

[sudden pewter]

33 on dagger to sword 80 iirc

Failstab deals 75

[deep karma]

TTK I mean, not damage

[cerulean furnace]

Dual Blades also has that somewhat. Deflect is often unreliable cuz of server (or other weird magic) but can be very powerful if you play them smart and not just M1 spam

[serene glade]

Dual blades deflect even with hitscan is dependent on ping which they hide. Servers are not a priority or issue to embark 👍

[unkempt moss]

You have to summon sausage for that. Its just the alley cats in here right now.

[deep karma]

I have to what

[unkempt moss]

Summon Sausage-chan

[cerulean furnace]

Sometimes I deflect a guy crossbar dead center and them not moving, and it still doesn't hit. THATS what's bothering me

[deep karma]

It's not even club night...

[cerulean furnace]

Hell I tbh take a small deviation/randomness of the deflected bullets if it means that u can atleast have them connect more reliably

[indigo nexus]

hello

[cerulean furnace]

Seems like u really need to center the lower body of anyone to deflect properly

[unkempt moss]

L needs graphs for ttk on m1 for sword vs dagger

[indigo nexus]

Oh, I don’t think I ever bothered to accurately measure sword or dagger TTK, and there’s not much need for a graph since they don’t have headshots or range variance

You’re out of luck!

[unkempt moss]

Welp, thems the breaks

[deep karma]

That's fine was just curious

My hunch was that Dagger M1 TTK is probably really far behind Sword, such that a small buff there wouldn't really matter much.

[unkempt moss]

I know for dagger is m1x2 + qm, and just two m1 for sword. Against light.

[indigo nexus]

Hah, the wiki somehow doesn’t even list dagger firerate

or sword

[unkempt moss]

Someone get in the wiki chat and go scorched earth wtf

[indigo nexus]

I don’t like to complain about a wiki when I could be fixing it

I won’t of course :)

Well, not in the near future. My priorities will not allow for that

Huh, the wiki page for the spear is rubbish

“Each attack deals 105 damage, and despite what its animation might suggest, the area of effect is spherical and neither the area nor the timing are affected by the user's orientation.”

Wrong on all three accounts!

[analog pewter]

do they mean the spin attack?

[indigo nexus]

yes

[deep karma]

Is it 105*3 or does it change damage like M1?

[unkempt moss]

I'm surprised youre not active in the wiki channel

[deep karma]

Me?

[unkempt moss]

I believe it's 105 each hit

[deep karma]

Okay yeah that's what I recall, from the M2 spin x2 > QM breakpoint..

[indigo nexus]

Oh, that clause is the one correct one

[unkempt moss]

I meant sausage about the wiki

[indigo nexus]

Should have clarified, it’s not spherical and not unaffected by orientation

[indigo nexus]

Never really looked there

[unkempt moss]

What is it? Cylindrical?

[indigo nexus]

I’m not sure exactly. It might be a cake slice shape.

It definitely doesn’t extend vertically as it does horizontally, a height difference of like a meter nullifies it

(could be a squished sphere, if not for how the hitbox moves around the player rather than fills the area)

[deep karma]

Could be oval or cylindrical yeah.

[sudden pewter]

Dagger kills faster

I’m sure sausage-senpai has the raw numbers tucked away somewhere but Sword combo requires two inputs and dagger instagibs by cutting the spinal column

[unkempt moss]

He wanted the m1 data

[sudden pewter]

Well fuck

https://tenor.com/view/heavy-is-a-millennial-heavy-tf2-sfm-sniff-gif-22983646

[deep karma]

They should add Heavy to Finals

[sudden pewter]

(I’m waiting for sausage to come to the rescue because numbers scare me)

I’m only here to tell people they’re stupid for disagreeing with me I don’t have any data

Woefully underprepared for such a situation.

[deep karma]

I'm a data enjoyer

[unkempt moss]

He already came in and denied our request.

Then he started running a dunk contest on the wiki

[analog pewter]

dude i hate being a deagles and model player because any time I use one weapon my aim with the other fucking tanks

weird that this game demands so much role flexibility but then has weapons that ask you to solo main them to be proficient lmao

[unkempt moss]

Another TF2 player...

[indigo nexus]

Gonna repost Gelz’s video on how the spin hitbox works, it’s a good demonstration

With the phrase “spear spin hitbox” so I can find this later.

[deep karma]

[unkempt moss]

So is the attack mainly on the right side?

[sudden pewter]

That’s where the spin seemingly comes from

[analog pewter]

god dude can they PLEASE unfuck the demat, now not only is it SO FUCKING SLUGGISH but it keeps just consuming charges without actually dematting anything

[sudden pewter]

Sorry, ESports is vital to the future of the game 😔

Have you tried purchasing a $12 Team Bundle?

[analog pewter]

if they wanted exciting esports they wouldnt have gutted demat. demat is literally one of the coolest parts of the game

[deep karma]

Yeah I think it's demonstrating that there's a hit that is moving around as it spins, and that there are deadzones in the spin pictured like so:

[analog pewter]

OH BOY 1/3 of our meta is just healing!!!! no strategic plays just turtling, poking, and healing!!!!

[sudden pewter]

Sorry, Esports doesn’t care about “cool”. It’s not conducive to a stable gameplay environment where the majority of engagements play out the same.

[analog pewter]

lets maintain this and gut everything interesting about our game!!!!

I'm becoming a radical, they shouldn't have even nerfed demat in season 8. it should be 3 charges, it should be near instant. fuck this nonsense

[deep karma]

Whoa there let's not get carried away

[serene glade]

They should still let me demat a jump pad to launch a cashout up a level. Coolest interaction in the game that had counterplay. But nah remove it

[sudden pewter]

Yes, you’re on the road to green. Let your hate become your strength. Your frustration will become your power.

[analog pewter]

with how good healing beam is right now it wouldnt even shake the meta. Medium should be allowed to have specs as powerful as the other classes, why are they the target of the nerfhammer when dash and winch are still insane, goo gun is a literal game changer, mesh shield is incredible, and even cloak now is quite powerful. C&S is basically demat with a 90 damage hitbox. the fuck are they doing?

[serene glade]

Demat is still the strongest "destruction" in the game tbf

[analog pewter]

when it chooses to fucking work, and after you wait the ten dynasties it takes to become usable

I cannot fucking believe this is capable of happening. TWICE.
look at my charge counter 💀

[serene glade]

Yeah that's rough, never seen that before. I bet embark is on the case!

[unkempt moss]

Its not destruction.

[analog pewter]

this thursday it'll be patched!!! it'll be just fine!!!

meanwhile they still havent fixed the demat being extremely slow to deploy since the start of season 8

part of why I pivoted from medium to heavy is because of how hard they annihilated demat

[serene glade]

Sorry massa

[analog pewter]

at first i was okay with it being 2 charges and having a flash before you can see through, but holy shit the QOL on this spec is atrocious

why did they also make it feel fucking terrible to use

why is it so GOD DAMN SLOW

[deep karma]

Not sure if we should count bugs and errant behaviour against it, but if you're consistently getting delay before it registers and that is your experience then perhaps that does need to be part of the equation.

"CnS is demat" and other hyperbolic statements don't warrant a response, I feel.

Even if it has room to be buffed compared to Medigun (if that were the case)... when the level geometry is constantly getting ignored in fights with Demat charges to spare and share, perhaps that's just not the vision they were looking for long term after sitting with it.

[serene glade]

The slowness was I'm assuming for its strength as an escape option

[analog pewter]

ruining its ability to be used reactively/swiftly in every other context just to nerf a strategy it should be allowed to use anyways is just baffling.

demat is also just really cool conceptually. i feel about it the way i feel about goo gun/goo grenade, they leverage the most interesting and unique parts of finals' gameplay so they should be given center-stage. They highlight destruction and fortification and terrain manipulation really well, by my measure they should be best-in-class or at least among the best options. the game is more interesting when players are using them I think

[unkempt moss]

You ever considered that you have no idea what you're talking about?

[serene glade]

I've been called cattle before yes

[deep karma]

Well that's not very nice.

[unkempt moss]

Googs is a notoriously heavy person.

[serene glade]

Can't help it when the quesarito is back for a limited time

(it doesn't hit the same)

[unkempt moss]

He's my duo. Im allowed to bully him.

[deep karma]

Hmm reasonable.

[chilly granite]

tism bomb

[narrow solar]

LH1 needs a visual recoil decrease, a recoil decrease, or a base ttk increase. Its super difficult to use with a barely much better ttk than the ARN. Definitely needs looked at

[unkempt moss]

You want to increase the ttk?

[chilly granite]

git good

the lh1 is a skillgap weapon. train headshot only with it and you'll find it's very powerful and only gets better as you get more comforatable wtih it. it's numbers are already extremly good, and it absolutely odesn't need a buff

the arn is litearlly the easiest gun in the game

anyway I'm pretty sure all these numbers are correct this time, please r8 my charts

[unkempt moss]

@indigo nexus you've been summoned again

[chilly granite]

my brain is turning to goop

[sudden pewter]

Super difficult to use? Gotta disagree

[chilly granite]

I broke my chart when i tried to fix it

the lh1 is quite user friendly tbh, it's got some kick but it's meant to be a marksman rifle like pike, not a spam machine like v9s

the pike is much more difficult to use relatively to the lh1 imho

[narrow solar]

lol. i main this gun and yes i know about it. the issue is i still dont feel like its as rewarding as it should be in comparison to the other light options. also, ttks for reference. Sure, headshots is a lot different story but dont you think if i hit all my shots, it should be better than a no recoil little ar? just a thought. LH1 should be the superior long range weapon imo.

@chilly granite @unkempt moss @sudden pewter

[unkempt moss]

Oh no... Sausage-chan has competition

[narrow solar]

no, far less visual and overall recoil. Also has better sights for distance. See how ttks are not too far while one is no brainer hold down trigger while the other requires a lot more skill? This is gun is good dont get me wrong but i def think it needs some love from devs. If you look back at the first message, i mentioned visual recoil decrease first because i think that would be the biggest thing to help it. that and maybe decrease horizantal recoil a little bit. however, as i said, even a ttk decrease wouldnt be uncalled for

[narrow solar]

nah decrease im lowk slow sry

[restive plover]

Would love a gas mask gadget.

[sudden pewter]

Yes, more gadgets that directly nullify other players gadgets please.

[unkempt moss]

All good. I was just making sure.

can i get a drip check on Lord Finals, ancestor of Mr. Finals?

[serene glade]

no

[sudden pewter]

Most I’d accept is a visual recoil decrease (not something that should be used to balance a weapon IMO)

But (paraphrasing you here) you don’t feel like killing a light in two shots is as rewarding as beaming a Light with an AR?

The dedicated mid-long range marksman rifle? With appropriate optics? I’m sorry you feel that way.

[unkempt moss]

heavy breathing

[chilly granite]

i mean, that is better than the arn

and you can hit 1 headshot with lh1 and it's way way better than the arn

and if you're hitting bodyshots the visual recoil isn't bad enouhg to make it harder than the arn

1 headshot on the arn is 1.5x value, going fro 17 to 22.5

1 headshot on lh1 is 2x value, going from 44 to 88

that's a huge decrease in ttk, saving a whole shot, which is a much lower rate of fire than the arn too, while the arn doesn't even save a whole bullet of ttk until the secondbullet (depending on breakpoints)

what you need to graph is their dps vs headshot %

[unkempt moss]

heavier breathing

[obtuse stratus]

I was with you until you said you were a dagger main.

[chilly granite]

bruh 2nd place idk how to carry harder

[serene glade]

You just gotta take the points. People freak out about not winning in games when other people are also trying to win. Steady climb up

[sly crest]

[chilly granite]

ye I'm happy for the points but it still sucks when I miss out on a bunch of extra RS for no good reason

and I lost more than I gained today from a griefer and game bug

[serene glade]

Based game bug, don't forget to thank embark for it

[unkempt moss]

All about consistency

[chilly granite]

I'm pretty consistent at getting second but there's some games I get last even when it's an easy lobby and that wipes out all the second place gains becasue the gap between first and second is so big