💣┇weapons-gadgets

[sudden pewter]

Class
😔

[unkempt moss]

Gueling. Got to learn it.

[coral dirge]

xD

[icy egret]

Heavy. Running Charge (swapping between that and shield), Akimbos (suck at dueling close range, hence why I need the help), Healing Balls, RPG-7 and Dome.

[coral dirge]

I don't have much experience with heavy they're on my list to learn good after i get emerald but i'm sure someone here can help

[indigo nexus]

This would be very weird, how thorough was your testing?

it would have to be a factor that didn't show up on dispersion reticules, which is very dubious

[serene glade]

very dubious indeed sausage san

[icy egret]

2 matches where I did well by getting directly into the enemies face better. It makes hitting shots without ADS far easier.

And general observations.

[indigo nexus]

if you just mean "getting closer is good for hipfire" then you're correct, it just does not sound like that's what you mean

[wraith orchid]

Yea, but maybe it's so dogshit, that they won't even be carried by others, as they don't want to be dragged down 😂 I solo queue to circuvent that problem, so my teammates only suffer me once. Though I did see a SINGLE other spear player at 37800, I'm not sure if he was a spear only guy like me

[unkempt moss]

Best way to do it is to just get to ruby, queue once with spear and lose, take a picture of you in ruby as spear. Easy.

[wraith orchid]

But I don't want the picture, I want the shiny stick

[unkempt moss]

Oh you can just get the ruby token and buy it these days.

I think that's how they said it works. I'm not sure.

[wraith orchid]

...what 🌚 I thought the coin was just a way to get any skin you want, wdym buy? It's only available in rank, no?

[unkempt moss]

Sorry, spend the token.

[compact tundra]

He's saying use a better weapon in the higher ranks and then just get the ruby spear skin

[indigo nexus]

what rank have you gotten to?

[wraith orchid]

I just reached the bottom of diamond today

[indigo nexus]

nice

[unkempt moss]

Thats pretty insane on spear.

[wraith orchid]

Nah, I want a legit shiny stick, what's the point, if you're just gonna use the meta weapon to get it? (Plus i'm only good with spear )

[wraith orchid]

Yea, I'm seeing the rs gains...it hurts 🥲

[unkempt moss]

Bottom of diamond means youre almost there right? Ruby is at like 44k or something?

[sudden pewter]

Ruby is 43k iirc

[wraith orchid]

Yea, but... it's ruby like, i'm not gonna get a clean 10 win streak to my way here. And a few days ago, it was 41k, I carried a diamond to ruby that way, and we became buddies

[unkempt moss]

Not with that mentality. You sound like a light player with that mindset. Play like youre the baddest mf that lobby has ever seen.

[wraith orchid]

He since then dropped to 35k, but we don't talk about that 😂

[wraith orchid]

Nah, don't worry, i'm positive, just on the long term, not the short one. I'm gonna get it...it might take me the whole season, but i'll get it

[icy egret]

Damn. The BFR has way more kill potential than the Akimbos. How unfun.

[indigo nexus]

I can only get to low plat with spear

[icy egret]

I just used it and did a lot more kills. I already knew this, but damn.

[indigo nexus]

what do you run it with?

[sudden pewter]

Yes, it does ranged poke more reliably

[unkempt moss]

I use spear to sink my RS and learn other new weapons. So you're much better than I am.

[unkempt moss]

I think the BFR is fun. Im allowed to play the meta sometimes.

[wraith orchid]

Spear, winch, barricade, healing emitter, and dome shield. I often try to hold positions, and slowly make my way up to the enemy with my moveable walls. I mostly stay back, and only get in if it's for the cashout to bait the enemy onto me, or if my team commits, otherwise i'm dead

[sudden pewter]

It’s absolutely fun, 100% with you there. But its existence is at odds with (what we can only assume) what was a core pillar of Heavies design, lacking effective ranged burst.

Akimbo’s go against this much better due to the bloom that scales with RoF. It’s also seemingly not perfectly accurate on the first shot either.

[wraith orchid]

The healing emitter allows me to distract the enemy with my existance, while not fearing chip, as The ball just heals it back. Also, I like to support my team

[sudden pewter]

Man haha if only Embark had a shit ton of data and design documents they gatekeep zealously that would clarify many issues the community has with intended balance and design

[serene glade]

the data shows people will buy bad skins every thursday and ignore issues with the game

[indigo nexus]

indeed, it always has dispersion

[sudden pewter]

Thanks king. 👑

[icy egret]

Why didn't I realize this sooner. Meta weapons are meta weapons because they are effective weapon.

[wraith orchid]

No way nah, it's just the cool skins that decide it

[sudden pewter]

There’s a level of tolerance that’s to be expected with a live service game, but that tolerance quickly becomes frustration when certain criteria are met:

• Longstanding issues not being addressed
• Poor communication
• Questionable balance (**see heavies intentional lack of reliable ranged poke and the introduction of BFR)
• “Letting the dust settle before we tune obviously OP additions” (H+ Infuser on release)

KS23 had its manual altered in S5, immediately fell off, and wasn’t meaningfully changed until 9 months later in S8(?).

All melee weapons beyond the Sledge are still lackluster.

We still don’t have any concrete idea of how Embark views the archetypes aside from the flavortext when creating one in the contestant menu.

Wikibait weapon stats. (Bars don’t communicate effectively how good or bad something is)

These and many more issues (aside from balance) are super easy to remedy with nothing more than communication and 2 years in, Embark refuses to do so.

TLDR: Embark should promote me to their God-King and I will lead them into a golden age with 0 experience.

[unkempt moss]

You can be their PR guy, but I need to be head of balancing.

[unkempt moss]

Even embark is on my side.

You'll be put in front if the spear throwing squad for a slow painful death.

[sudden pewter]

Also if we could axe the mandatory chat filter, that would be great.

Creating an environment where 90% of players don’t want to talk because anything they say could be viewed as offensive is poison to what the intended environment is supposed to support. Communication between teammates.

Instead of introducing Chinese AI Moderation tools, put the power in the players hands.

• Manual blacklist of words
• Better social tools (mute pings/VC/text individually)
• Tab Menu Functionality

[unkempt moss]

My main problem is that it was bugged. I tried to accept the 1984 contract, but it keeps kicking me out when I use voice chat and I have to accept it again.

Happens every two matches.

[sudden pewter]

Same, I have to do it almost every other time I boot up the game

It’s fucking annoying

[serene glade]

my randoms will get my pings and nothing else

[unkempt moss]

It's very embark like to make something mandatory and have it not work.

[sudden pewter]

I understand the Internet isn’t the same as it was when I was younger, and many players are incredibly sensitive, but rather than worsening the general player experience as a whole, giving players the power to moderate their own experience to their own sensibilities is not only more cost effective, but means less overhead for Embark

I’m sure it’s at least in some measure contractually obligated due to The Finals ties with Nexon (Chinese company btw and they’re not a fan of free speech over there) but China has its own branch of the game with no overlap to ours so why should we be held to similar standards?

Tbf that got kinda anti-China towards the end but the sentiment is there. The current methods of countering toxicity are subpar, frustrating to use, and intrusive

[unkempt moss]

I didn't even think of it this way, but them having a separate game does make it weird that they moderate us similarly.

I think its fully okay to be anti-China when it comes to their free speech problems.

Its not like youre being racist or xenophobic by advocating for free speech for a set of people. It's more of a problem with the government than anything.

I think over moderation is kind of a problem in general these days, but I am also a person of maximum privilege. So what do I know.

[sudden pewter]

I’m not expecting an elite strike force to be dispatched and kill players I find annoying, but when I block someone I should know
1.) I won’t hear them farting over an open mic
2.) I won’t see them typing in the chat
3.) Won’t see them spamming Group Up (they’re playing Light and running ahead of the team to 1v3)

Blocking players shouldn’t remove them from potentially playing matches with me (what’s stopping me from blocking everyone that kills me) but it should limit avenues for them to communicate with me. Players that get blocked a bunch (a metric I know for a fact Embark can see) should be manually targeted for discipline by moderation.

[spring spear]

i expect a elite strike force tl be dispatched when my 2 randoms decide to go double light

[compact tundra]

I like blocking players being a way to remove people from your queue. I use it against people I find cheating or who just play in ways I hate like religiously camping the small ledges in $ystem horizon

[sudden pewter]

I mean yeah, but with how easy to abuse it is I can’t imagine Embark making it work in such a way

[compact tundra]

Wdym, it already works that way

[sudden pewter]

I’d love for there to be a “Fuck this guy” token you get once a week where you can spend it to 100% avoid someone you suspect is cheating but that’s delirium

[sudden pewter]

Nuh uh

[compact tundra]

Yea, that's why it asks you if you wanna block a player after you report them

[sudden pewter]

Blocking only prevents communication. Nothing else

[compact tundra]

The fuck, why bother asking then? I don't give a fuck if the cheater calls me slurs, I care about not matching with them again

[sudden pewter]

If I report someone for toxicity, ofc I’d block them too. So it just does the popup as QoL

[compact tundra]

Who tf reports for toxicity tho?

[sudden pewter]

Some players I’d assume

[compact tundra]

I think I've only done it once and it's cause a dude I was playing with was literally calling the other player on our team slurs

[sudden pewter]

Same, I love banter but genuine chimp toxicity isn’t poggers

[compact tundra]

Na it was bad, he was getting genuinely like screaming over the mic angry cause we were loosing and calling the 3rd who had Spanish in his name slurs for hispanics

That's the only time I've reported for toxicity, usual shit talk I either ignore or shit talk back

[wild zenith]

is slam damage based on how far you fall?

[indigo nexus]

Not sure. The easiest way to do it would be to base it on velocity, but I think it may be height?

[wide stratus]

Add naked gun skins

[sudden pewter]

I wanna say it’s on height but there’s some super funky interactions with anti gravity

[wintry fog]

HGJ

[sudden pewter]

Very thought provoking

[noble saddle]

What are some weapons and gadgets that change the utility of the Medgun in interesting ways

Most of my medium builds run Demat and I want some other Medgun builds but I feel like there's really only 1 way to play Medgun

[unkempt moss]

Cerb is the #1 medic gun.

Breach Proxy Zip.

[noble saddle]

I guess medbeam with and without defib are probably completely different playstyles

I guess if you're not running defib youd probably value lots of area denial and crowd control because if the team goes down you can still hero play

[unkempt moss]

Youre the #1 medic. They aren't going to die on your watch anyway

Defib is a crutch anyway.

[noble saddle]

I kinda hate that it exists but also it's so strong that it makes any ass loadout good on principle that you're running it lol

"oh this guy is running dual blades and explosive mine? Wtf"

"Yeah but he's also got defib"

Suddenly the loadout is good

Anyways I'm thinking to make blades work best, I wanted to run it with Medgun but idk it feels like Medgun really doesn't complement blades at all unless you're playing with a very coordinated dive comp but it's not great solo queue.

Imma try

Blades, Defib, Demat, Jump Pad, Explosive mine or frag grenade gonna have to test which works better. Idea is I ambush people by either dropping onto them myself or I drop them onto me and ideally my frag.

I may not even need the frag and there may be more value in running goo grenade with the loadout because then I could close in easier on maps like Bernal with Goo + Jump Pad

[sudden pewter]

Dual Blades pair very well with a Minigun Heavy as the blades deflect in a cone, and the Heavy’s height allows them to shoot over the Medium

Me and a buddy have been using it to fairly decent success in PointBreak

[chilly granite]

dude I blocked someone with an offensive name and it didn't even anonymise him

[muted condor]

I’m in love with the deagles now

[chilly granite]

it's actually insnae that in a game that has so many players with offensive nicknames they have a crazy strict chat filter and the block featuer doesn't hide names

[muted condor]

I have on locked full gun fu potential

[chilly granite]

deags are legit the funnest gun on heavy

except goo gun sorry @unkempt moss

[muted condor]

I don’t know if I like them more than mini gun and spear but I am cooking with them now

[unkempt moss]

Blades are too active for healgun. You can hot swaps cerb and pop a shot on cerb and cycle back nicely with it.

[unkempt moss]

Youre an aim fella right? And youre not using the beefer?

[chilly granite]

1.5 mult, it's for noobs

Dink dink light go boom deags are goat

Plus tdm maps are small you don't need the better falloff on the bfr

I don't play heavy much, but when I do, the deags are my go-to, they feel so damn good

[unkempt moss]

Isn't the deagle a 2x?

[chilly granite]

Yes, bfr is 1.5

[unkempt moss]

Beef hipfire feels more consistent than deagles somehow.

[chilly granite]

Think bloom is smaller, deagles bloom is the one thing I don't like

Even ads the bloom is bigger than Id like on deags, I've had some headshots miss on bloom, I think you can't 100% a light headshot while strafing at 20m?

[muted condor]

God damn it

[chilly granite]

Fire outfit btw

[muted condor]

I keep getting so close to full S

[unkempt moss]

I would trade the deagle range for hipfire accuracy in a heartbeat

[chilly granite]

The hip fire accuracy feels so bad for what is dualweilded pistols

[muted condor]

Thank you.
Goated upper body fr

[chilly granite]

Like if they should be accurate in anyway it should be the hip fire first lol

[unkempt moss]

They would feel so good if the bloom got reduced from the hip. You could reduce rhe range to like 15m for all i care if they were just demons from the hip

[chilly granite]

But yeah in tdm I'm pretty sure the bfr is just mathematically wrong because it's mostly lights and deags beat bfr ttk on both body and headshots

[muted condor]

That’s what C&S is for

[chilly granite]

But the bfr is lame, I hate guns that don't reward headshots, and vs light, there's no point even trying which is why I don't use it

That's why I'm a bow addict

Bow is the most satisfying headshot weapon in game

[muted condor]

Real, as a fellow BFR hater I forgive you for all your previous transgressions

That shit is for people who dont want to actually play heavy

[unkempt moss]

Cashout, bud. Two tapping mediums feels great.

[muted condor]

Get out

[chilly granite]

I've been trying to grind out my matter skins because I really enjoy matter too (again it's fun going for "shotgun headshots", ie, maximum pellet hit)

But the bow is so obscenely enjoyable for me lmao, I just adore the mechanics and headshotting with the bow so much, it's so satisfying

[unkempt moss]

God gave us heavy. Im going to use all of the heavy.

[muted condor]

I do have to admit I don’t like the extra deagle animations

[chilly granite]

I'd rather just 3 tap with deags tbh

[muted condor]

The spinning reload just grinds my gears for some reason

[chilly granite]

It's faster, and they feel way more out skilled than just being double tapped by a gun with no recoil

You gotta assert dominance with maximum style

Hearing dink dink dink applies a psychological debuff to your enemies

It's so effective against enemy heavies in particular, dink dink dink dink makes them pick deagles and feed

Hahahaha

[unkempt moss]

Using the slides to the rack the guns will forever be the best reload in the game.

[muted condor]

The spinning sounds funny too

Sounds like someone is gargling your balls

[chilly granite]

Yeah it's the bfr user

[unkempt moss]

Its the light you just smoked

[chilly granite]

Hahahaha

[unkempt moss]

Also, the beef having only five shots adds a nice little tension to the shots.

Trust me, I willed the deagles in to the game back in the day. So I love them. But I also just picked up the beef this season and I'm loving it.

[chilly granite]

Tbh I wish they'd just done a single deagle with the same fire rate and slightly higher shot damage so you can kill heavy in 7 shots

Maybe even putting an extra bullet in the top so you got 8 shots for the heavy hahaha

But as much as I like the akimbo style, I think a single deagle is just more stylish

[unkempt moss]

Sliding that last round you need in mid fight and smacking someone with it feels good.

[chilly granite]

I feel like embark thinks loading bullets one at a time makes a gun worse than a gun with a mag but they're fucking wrong

[unkempt moss]

Im a beef guy right now. But I'm also on my arc of mastering every heavy weapon except spear.

Finally got my SA locked in.

[chilly granite]

So many fights have a second of downtime where you can fit antoher bullet in but not a full reload, and then you only need one or two more bullets to win the fight

Give the bfr an autoloader, but the heavys giant hands drop it once so they have to have an animation where they pick it up from the floor before they finish the reload

5 bullets and then stun locked for 5s while heavy picks up the dropped bullets 🙂

Also the cb having both single load, and an autoloader for 3 shots, is beyond stupid and op

The model deserves the autoloader, at least the model requires you to aim well to twoshot lights

[unkempt moss]

Since lights think the heavy weapons are OP, we should let them use the heavy weapons but each shot damages their fragile pathetic little bodies.

[chilly granite]

The deagles are just a worse lh1 but id do it for the style points

And heavy weapons aren't op, they're just unreasonable when they're backed up by 350hp, dome shield and mesh shield

[unkempt moss]

You don't have to use the little fella. You can play the big fella.

[chilly granite]

(winch/cns/lockbolt/googun) all fit in this list

[chilly granite]

I like frag more than rpg or c4 but I know that's incorrect and that makes me feel bad

[unkempt moss]

You guys are in such a rush to run straight in to the enemy team. Why you trying to leave so quickly

Lockbolt just gives you a nice little reminder of your bad play.

[unkempt moss]

Frag can be run with those things.

[chilly granite]

Tdm maps are small which makes lockbolt harder to avoid, but usually yes its a mistake

[unkempt moss]

You need to get on the cashout train.

Everyone wants a nuclear light on their team.

[chilly granite]

Hahaha

[unkempt moss]

Googs wanted to invite you the other day.

[chilly granite]

I'm EU and I think u guys all na? I'm tryna sleep right now

Procrastinating sleep hahaha

[unkempt moss]

Never mind then.

[chilly granite]

But I'm down to play some time if I happen to be awake at a relevant time, although I'm usually playing worse at 4 am hahhaa

I've been slowly adding more quick cash, cash out and ranked to my finals diet

I had a really fun quick cash today, we lost but we almost had it like 8 times lol, the respawn timers can be so short in quick cash

We killed one team, then the next, but the first team already respanwed, and we killed them again, but the second team had then respanwed! And we finally lost 🙁

[unkempt moss]

Its all good. He may have retired this afternoon.

I'm not a fan of quick cash, but its good for practicing third parties

[chilly granite]

Its nice for my tdm/ADHD brain; more intense and faster paced fights

I struggle in cash out when I gotta wait for the enemy to respawn I just go afk and argue with you guys

[unkempt moss]

That's a problem bud. You gotta be setting up and doing recon

[chilly granite]

Yeah I know in theory but its hard to convince my brain

[unkempt moss]

Some day I'll convince you to play heavy and take you under the wing to learn googun

The true duelist spec.

[chilly granite]

Hahaha I was playing 3v3 tdm with my friends today and our best player was bullying us all with goo gun and he's normally a CB main lol

[unkempt moss]

Googun is the best adhd spec since there's always something to be doing

[muted condor]

C&S is true spec

[chilly granite]

I always kill myself with cns

But yeah, I'm also trying to level up my matter right now and idk how you're meant to play matter in cash out other than afk for the enemy to arrive

[unkempt moss]

And there's not limit to it so you're always developing

[muted condor]

Need wall not there? Eat wall
Need down one floor? Eat floor
See light run into building? Eat building
See light? Eat light

C&S stays winning

[unkempt moss]

If only that were true

[chilly granite]

I just panic cns to run away hahaha

[muted condor]

Run at them

Eat them and the building they thought would be their refuge

[unkempt moss]

Just play SA if you want to be an aim god. Hardest weapon in the game to aim well it feels like.

[chilly granite]

Hahaha

I really gotta sleep though, it was fun talking

[muted condor]

I tried SA for a season but decided I didn’t like the play style enough to learn

[unkempt moss]

See you in 4 hours

[unkempt moss]

Heavy gotta heavy.

Plus SA and Goo actually works really well

[chilly granite]

It's easier and less fun than deags

I sleep for a long time when I sleep when I talked about bow for 32h I couldn't sleep cuz I was sick lol

Hahaha cya in 12h

[unkempt moss]

SA is definitely not easier that deagles

[muted condor]

Mini gun, spear, and now deagles are my favorites

[unkempt moss]

No KS or flame in your diet?

[chilly granite]

Bodyshot deags < sa < headshot deags

[muted condor]

Naw, flame is for reddit chuds

[unkempt moss]

Ew. Flame is based.

[muted condor]

It’s the melee weapon for people who can’t aim

[unkempt moss]

You need to run my king of hell build.

[chilly granite]

Wrong arrows but u get the point

Playing deags headshot only is crazy hard and for sure harder than sa

Sa also probably isn't harder than model? Depends how you rank recoil Vs precision difficulty

Flamethrower is for people who like meme builds and for people who can't aim

[muted condor]

Don’t care, didn’t ask, get winch boomed

[chilly granite]

Hhahah

That's toxic bs

[muted condor]

Peak heavy game play

That guy specifically was pissing me off all round

[unkempt moss]

I think the SA is a lot harder than model for me. The recoil of SA isn't bad because you really aren't full auto on it unless you're very close

But the model also feels really good after the buff

[muted condor]

I need to run my chain bang load out again

[chilly granite]

In close range the model can be slightly more forgiving because it's tighter spread can fit more inside the body, but at midrange the spread requires a lot of precision to get big hits with

The sa's pattern is more forgiving than the model, if you're slightly off in any direction in the model you lose half your damage it feels like, but the SAs pattern means that slight errors are less punished, although if you don't know the pattern it's pretty easy to grief the pattern anyway

[muted condor]

God this clip never gets old

[unkempt moss]

The spread on the SA is what makes it most difficult for me. Its very easy to get hits low damage when you are trying to hit someone not right on top of you. I just shoot the model like a rifle most times and it usually works.

[chilly granite]

People use the model in close range a lot but it hits like a truck at distance and only starts falloff at 20, I really think you wanna take advantage of range and high burst damage with cover like CB

[unkempt moss]

Also flamethrower is more about positioning, movement, and set up

Its easy to clown it but its hard to use in the higher ranks since it has dogass ttk

[chilly granite]

The models spread is quite even, so any error/spread area off target will result in a dramatic drop in damage, but any solid hit will be a solid hit, so you can aim it like a rifle and have it work

As I said it's easy to grief the sa pattern if you don't know it but if you've seen it once, it's a very abusable pattern for easy big hits

The matter is arguably my best weapon, even ahead of the bow, and it was my favourite before I stated using bow, and it has a much worse spread than the sa

[unkempt moss]

I mean theres literally times rhe spread is just greater than the size of the target. I also dont like SA against heavy.

What spec do you run with matter?

[chilly granite]

That's why I mention abusability. The sa pattern it's quite easy to preserve damage when the target is smaller than the patter because the core is quite tight together with lots of verticality

[chilly granite]

Dash is the only spec if you want to win, but I'll grapple for fun sometimes

[unkempt moss]

Oh... that makes sense.

The matter feels easier to me, but that's probably because im able to stay on top of people more easily.

[chilly granite]

Sa pattern above, this is matter:

[unkempt moss]

Right, I wasn't denying the spread may be better. I was saying I have an easier time because of the speed of play on light. Especially with dash.

[chilly granite]

I was just adding for reference, since I was running off memory when I said it was more vertical and tight in the center

The sa's pattern is highly abusable though, cuz you can usually get the whole core to hit out to decent ranges

[unkempt moss]

Also having a more horizontal spread would make it easier wouldn't it? Youre fighting on a flat plane pretty often with matter and SA

[chilly granite]

Easier to hit "something" harder to hit "value"

[unkempt moss]

Whats the per pellet damage of each.

[chilly granite]

6 Vs 11

[unkempt moss]

So you only have to hit almost half the pellets

[chilly granite]

Which is part of the reason why the pattern is more abusable

[unkempt moss]

How is it more abusable? You can be way less accurate, on a class than can close distance way faster.

[chilly granite]

This is model btw. It's tight, but evenly distributed, and each pellet is worth a lot so missing any sucks

[chilly granite]

Pellet damage isn't comparable in a void, the matter has a slow as fuck fire rate

[unkempt moss]

Im not comparing it in a void. Im comparing it in its effective setting. The most mobile class can hit half the pellets to do the same damage on two wrapons both using pellet spread.

[chilly granite]

Each pellet is 9.09% DPS on matter and 8.33% DPS on the SA

[unkempt moss]

Ive never seen DPS expressed in percentages, so you'll need to explain that.

[chilly granite]

% of the weapon DPS. Idk what it is for the sa, but it's 170 for matter

[unkempt moss]

Matter also seems to have better fall off than the SA.

Just slightly, but 2.5m is a lot for a shotgun.

[chilly granite]

228 on the sa

[unkempt moss]

And this DPS is based on maximum damage at optimal range?

[chilly granite]

So each missed pellet on the SA is worth 19dps

[unkempt moss]

Wouldn't this be comparing pellet damage in a void? You said not to do that.

[chilly granite]

And each missed pellet on the matter is 15.5 DPS

This is in falloff

But you're also missing that the matter can't hit the outer two pellets on any target outside of 7 metres

The dummy in the pictures is a light afaik

Or - my testing of the matters pattern on a light seems to match the pattern show on the dummy fairly closely

[unkempt moss]

Okay, what does the matter spread look like on a heavy from the same distance those are taken at.

[chilly granite]

The bottom two go under his armpits and outer two outside his arms

You hit 5 core and with precise aim, can hit the upper two on his shoulders

[unkempt moss]

I usually dont tpose at my enemies, so we're comparing in a void again.

[chilly granite]

No, I'm talking about tested on a training dummy which is holding a gun

[muted condor]

I’ll end this debate. SA is harder than model because while it has a bigger spread you have to be literally touching the person to get a god to while the model is a smaller spread but can reach out way further so it easier to hit shots

[unkempt moss]

Right, are we comparing in a vacuum or not?

[chilly granite]

The matter feels easier because dash is fucking op

[unkempt moss]

This is matter vs SA. I think the SA is stronger, but harder to use.

[muted condor]

Ah

[unkempt moss]

He thinks the SA is easier than the matter.

[muted condor]

Yeah 100% SA is better but a pain in the ass

[chilly granite]

Depending on the heavies animation it can be impossible to even get the 77 damage hit of upper two + center 5

[unkempt moss]

The SA destroys the matter in a vacuum, but in practice its not that simple.

[chilly granite]

The spread pattern of the matter is about the same as the DB btw

But it just does way less damage

The matter can only twoshot a light at 7 metres, the dB can do it to 12

[unkempt moss]

Right, the trade off is mag size and fire rate I'm assuming.

But this was about ease of use, about M26 vs SA

[chilly granite]

Technically 8 but again it depends on the specific animation of the light

How does any of this sound easy to use? The matter relies on dash being broken

Go play a game with invis matter and see what you think

Or grapple matter

[unkempt moss]

I do play invis matter actually.

[chilly granite]

Also about falloff, the difference between the matter and SA is basically noise

[unkempt moss]

2.5m isnt just noise with shotguns

[chilly granite]

Matters falloff starts a little later, but you can't hit nearly as many pellets at that range, so the sa will be dealing more damage

When you use the SA, are you visualising the spread when you aim?

[unkempt moss]

I use a different reticle to help with that.

[chilly granite]

Of all the things to say are hard about the sa I really don't think the spread is it

[unkempt moss]

I think the spread is the main factor in its difficulty. It surely isnt the recoil.

Spread and its interaction with range.

[chilly granite]

I mean, look at the ref picture, at 10 meters you only have 2 misses if you aim well

[unkempt moss]

Once again, we're comparing in a void which you said we cant do.

[chilly granite]

The upper outer shots will hit the elbows

When they aim

[unkempt moss]

Do your opponents often tpose at optimal range?

Not even optimal range, optimal range to win an argument.

[chilly granite]

That's why I clarified when they aim

The elbows stuck out further for most gun animations

Not all though

And the central column is reliably at a lot of distances

The matters central 5 is more reliably at long range though

The SAs spread is designed to make it have a range where it loses effectiveness drastically

But you can abuse this by aiming to the right and hitting one side of the central column

That's what I mean by abusable

At 20 meters, without abusing the pattern, the SA will touch a light for like 5 damage

Abusing the pattern you'll get like 20 damage which isn't bad when max hit is 72

[unkempt moss]

I dont think i can really convince you of my argument in a vacuum so it kind of moot

[chilly granite]

The matter with simple aim will do way more at a distance because of higher per shot damage and tighter central spread

I don't get what's bad about the sa spread pattern if you're not facing people at a range where you shouldn't be using the SA

[slow linden]

What are these teammates 😭

[unkempt moss]

That argument can be used for any shotgun, no?

That's why im saying, the class able to manipulate range more effectively is easier. SA is stronger, M26 is an easier gun.

[slow linden]

Hot take Open Beta 300 damage sa and 400 overhead Sledge were fine,but then winch came along and had these weapons reworked and nerfed and now they just feel clunky and dependent on winch or other forms of cc to be usable

[unkempt moss]

The Open Beta SA was a work of art.

[slow linden]

Winch is the tumor that crippled heavys arsenal

[slow linden]

It could obliterate a whole team,however it took seven centuries to reload and that was what was beautiful about it

Obliterate team one,start reloading,get pushed by team two,explode

[serene glade]

dont you wish you could go back

[chilly granite]

If you put the SA's spread pattern on the matter it would be op

If you put the matters spread pattern on the SA it would be trash

I don't find the SA hard to use but I'm also usually playing on smaller maps with less coordinated enemies. But the spread pattern isn't the problem with the SA ever. The spread size, maybe. The falloff, maybe. But the pattern itself? No

[slow linden]

Open beta goo flame was nightmare fuel,oh I want igniting buildings back so badly

I pioneered that shit,I was the first goo flame user

[chilly granite]

I think there's a decent argument that the SA spread is too big

[unkempt moss]

I must have misspoke if I said patter. I meant size. I dont think i would have said anything about pattern because I dont know the difference between them.

I thought i was consistent in saying spread the entire time.

At one point I even said spread and its interaction with range.

[chilly granite]

Patterns interact more with range than the size though

[slow linden]

It's big enough to feel inconsistent

[chilly granite]

You need to abuse the pattern of the SA because the pattern is really abusable

[slow linden]

Pattern is shape the bullets make when you shoot a wall

[chilly granite]

It will help a lot with the SA at range I promise

[unkempt moss]

I know. I wouldn't have spoken on pattern because I don't know the difference.

My argument the entire time was the spread.

[slow linden]

I refuse to touch it until they remove winch and give us old sa back,same with Sledge they are dead to me and winch killed them

[unkempt moss]

You know you dont have to use winch?

[chilly granite]

You said this which is part of what furtherd my confusion, since this is an element of pattern

I get more where you were coming from now but you said a few things that imply pattern/make more sense from a pattern perspective, rather than the actual diameter

[slow linden]

They depend on winch because of the way they were balanced,I refuse to even be tempted by the parasite

[unkempt moss]

The SA will never go back to open beta.

[chilly granite]

But yeah, you said there's times when the spread is greater than the size of the target, you need to be aiming the specific bullets from the pattern at them, instead of aiming directly at them

[slow linden]

The pattern kinda paints silhouettes around people unless you're 2 meters from them or inside their hitbox,same with cerb

[chilly granite]

If you aim the specific bullets of the matter, you can twoshot a light at 8.3 meters or so instead of 7, although that's in practice range, idk how the hell your meant to do it irl

You need to hit both their shoulders and their elbows

[unkempt moss]

That was a separate point of confusion. You brought patter in to the discussions with the targets.

[unkempt moss]

If youre doing this reliably I need you to start playing cashout and hit ruby within the week.

Because that level of precision is insane.

As for non -imbots like myself, I just have to get closer.

[chilly granite]

I was saying pattern the whole time lol

[chilly granite]

I can show you how to set up a cross hair for it, then just aim with one side of the cross hair

[unkempt moss]

I wont ever have that precision.

[chilly granite]

If you can use the bfr you can do it bro

[unkempt moss]

I'm not like that when I play.

[chilly granite]

So the concept is simple, a blob cross hair that is the width of the spread of the inner columns of the SA

[slow linden]

Maybe not ruby,I'd say diamond 2,ruby players have either borderline spinbot aim or were let into/carried to ruby because rumor has it everyone in ruby knows each other and they fix matches and gatekeep

[unkempt moss]

Im juggling too many things with googun and spacial awareness already. Having ti worry about aiming off center would be too much.

[chilly granite]

If the blob fits inside em, click

If no, aim with the edge of the blob

[slow linden]

I typically goo lock,Pyro mine toss,incinerate with flamethrower,such is my true piety of the goo

[chilly granite]

Even if i did that I wouldn't hit ruby in a week on the basis of trash gamesene and not using gadgets or spec

[unkempt moss]

That parts easy to learn.

[chilly granite]

I tried playing ranked as a heavy a while ago I got like 20 kills and lost first round lmao

Deags go brrrr

[serene glade]

if you lose with 20 kills its gotta be your fault no cap

[chilly granite]

It was really fun but my team was ass they failed to Def everything and I was probably being too bloodthirsty

[slow linden]

I hate the deagles tbh,they just don't feel like deagles,they feel like a reskin of the pike

[chilly granite]

I was being too bloodthirsty and not objective minded but all my team had to do was not drop the ball while I was killing everyone 🙁

[chilly granite]

Lh1, the numbers are super similar hahaha

[slow linden]

Idk,I lost with 20 kills earlier and I was just defending cashout most of the time moving like this

[chilly granite]

That's QC though, losing with 20kills in cashout is a lot harder

Longer respawn timers and usually teams play 3v3

To be fair in that game the enemy team doubled all the boxes which made the game a lot more of a shit show

[slow linden]

My team kept pushing on defense and I kinda got firing squaded or had to pull shit like what I did in the end of the clip,I would either have to kill everyone by myself or explode instantly there was no in between lmao

[chilly granite]

@unkempt moss but yeah I picked up the SA first time and found it pretty easy to use, you probably should try some tdm with it

Tdm is good for drilling in fight positioning for the range of your weapon, which sounds like your issue with the SA

I'm ass at macro position, being with my team etc, but in a duel I'll usually have a strong position for my weapon if you understand me, and the SA depends a lot on that

My friend was trying the SA with me and he had a terrible time because his in fight positioning is one of his biggest weaknesses

[unkempt moss]

I already worked through my inability to use SA.

[chilly granite]

You still think it's harder than the model or the matter though

The model is mechanically significantly harder than the SA, requiring more precise and more accurate aim

However it doesn't give a single fuck about positioning because its a laser to 20 meters and has no falloff

If the recoil isn't the source of difficult with the SA, it's in fight positioning

Micro positioning or whatever you want to call it

Try some tdm, no dome, no goo, just SA and the map

The matter is also mechanically more difficult than the SA, with larger spread and a greater punishment for missed pellets. But the matter comes with light, which has an array of different specs and gadgets that make positioning trivial or irrelevant

[unkempt moss]

Yes. The model feels like a rifle. For me, the difficult part of the model was always the ammo management. Never the shooting.

The difficulty of the matter is the lights health, not the weapon itself.

For me, is what I'm saying.

[chilly granite]

That's in fight positioning for sure, the matter is the gun I least complain about light hp with

[dry birch]

is the v9s bad if i'm only landing bodyshots with it

[chilly granite]

No

V9s is bad if you're missing bodyshots

If you occasionally miss a bullet, the M11 will be less punishing due to higher fire rate and lower damage per bullet with similar DPS

The v9s DPS drops like a rock if you throw bullets

[dry birch]

my click tracking is just awful i guess

[chilly granite]

Record and rewatch your gameplay to know for sure

[dry birch]

and just my overall ability to fire at max rpm

nah i'm very new to this game and i'm not great at shooters as a whole

[chilly granite]

It's 6 clicks per second I have arthritis and it's easy for me you can do it if you practice for
10minw

[unkempt moss]

The lights health is less relevant on matter than any of the ranged options?

[dry birch]

is there any buffering for shooting it

[chilly granite]

Click hide click can't take damage while hiding

[serene glade]

you can when embark servers have you take damage while unpeeked

[unkempt moss]

ARN hold left click from ridiculous range and never unpeek?

[chilly granite]

Hahaha

[chilly granite]

It doesn't matter if you're behind a wall because you positioned well in the fight

[unkempt moss]

M11, hold left click and kill before they can even 180.

These are much easier than the matter.

[chilly granite]

You click quickmelee and he's dead before you take damage

[unkempt moss]

Are you talking light vs light?

[chilly granite]

And if he's on you, say it with me, shitty in fight positioning

Are we no longer talking matter?

[unkempt moss]

Ive been talking SA vs Matter the entire time.

[chilly granite]

Are we still talking about the lights health being less relevent on the matter than ranges options

[unkempt moss]

Yes. I still think the lights health is far less relevant on almost any ranged option than on matter.

[chilly granite]

If that's the case then you might be mistaking positioning or decision errors for aim errors

Try the practice range to get an idea of how well you hit the bots

[unkempt moss]

But this started from me talking about why the matter is easier.

[chilly granite]

So light has the most escape tools to dodge enemies pinning them.

Gateway, invis, dash, thermal, breach.

And in a fight, an automatic weapon needs to hard peek to win the fight, but a weapon like bow, matter, SR, can shoot and hide to repeek, taking no damage in the meantime

[dry birch]

maybe i'm confusing what ranges i should be fighting with the v9s

[chilly granite]

In their rectum

[dry birch]

really

i thought this was a 10-15m weapon

[chilly granite]

It can work out to infinity

The DPS is the same within 15 meters

But being up close and personal makes you a hard target, and you can hipfire them down nice and easy, and you want to be behind them, which is why I said rectum specifically

For the double barreled, I would've said cuddling them.

V9s is silenced so people can be a bit slower to notice the flank, and it's good to take advantage of that. Sometimes its a tiny advantage, but some people are having a slow day and die before they notice you lol

[dry birch]

interesting
how is the 93r doing

[chilly granite]

It's fine if you like it but it's not longer a certified bs cannon

[dry birch]

fine by me

[chilly granite]

7 shot light or 5+1headshot

3burst/2burst

[chilly granite]

If the reason you stated for lights health being less relevent for ranged than matter was mines, then I would've accepted that since walking on mines with the matter is my favourite pasttime

But if you aren't walking on mines while you gapclose with the matter, then you should win basically every duel with a lot of hp unless you made an error

But because of it's limited range and long cooldown on shots, it's super duper reliant on good position for the fight to keep your hp up via breaking line of sight, dashing to break aim, flanking, and safely closing the gap

Matter is for sure my best weapon in cashout btw, so this isn't a purely tdm biased take

I'm not tryna say your bad, just that this is probably a relative weakness to your other skills, resulting in the SA feeling hard and the matter light feeling squishy

[unkempt moss]

I'm literally saying the matter is easier. I dont think we're disagreeing on that point.

Im disagreeing that the matter is easier to live than a weapon with range.

[chilly granite]

Matter is easier model isn't than sa

[unkempt moss]

Model for me is easier than every other shotgun basically

That's entirely opinion though

[chilly granite]

This take is beyond awful as a full time light

These three takes all speak to the same thing, which is that you are making in fight positioning errors

[unkempt moss]

Are you understanding that im saying the matter isnt difficult to use?

[chilly granite]

Model easiest shotgun is only true if your aim is better than your positioning by a significant margin

The matter has more effective hp than ranged automatics unless your positioning is bad

[unkempt moss]

I dont particularly think any light weapon is difficult to use.

[worn ice]

im quite confused i might be bad but its odd how one can miss every shot but others hit everything sometimes i notice it even when i am the one whos doin the damage

[unkempt moss]

You're also not speaking on playstyle. I use the model on a medium support build. My positioning is reliant on where my teammate is.

[chilly granite]

?? That's not relevent though, the model doesn't care about positioning which is my point

[unkempt moss]

Im not dueling with the model is what im saying.

[chilly granite]

It's mechanically harder, but it doesn't care about positioning, these are objective truths

The model has a slower fire rate with more precision required for its damage than any other weapon in the game

[unkempt moss]

Its not mechanically harder for me though.

Because of how I play it.

[chilly granite]

If you find the SA harder than that when the SA is much more forgiving spread pattern, but requires you to be standing in the right place, then you're standing in the wrong place.

The mechanic you find hard is in fight positioning

[unkempt moss]

Because of my positioning.

I'd say my biggest strength as a player is positioning. Because I cant aim that well.

[chilly granite]

The model doesn't care about in fight positioning like the matter or SA. You can use it like a CB or a fcar and be fine. The Sa and matter depend on highly effective (in fight) positioning

Which is not the same as strategic, objective positioning

[unkempt moss]

Okay, this goes back to our original conversation that I believe the SA is harder to use than the Matter.

[chilly granite]

I'm ass at strategic positioning, I'm always in some unbelievably stupid place isolated from my team, but my positioning is also one that enables me to abuse cover to win fights

I have absolutely no doubt your macro positioning is excellent, or you wouldnt play heavy lol

Trying to get back to my team when I've isolated myself in some stupid place 100meters away as a heavy is fucking awful lol

[chilly granite]

I do think the SA is harder than the matter btw, not than the model, but my opinion is not based on that assertion. The additional context and opinions you've shared made me form this conclusion

[unkempt moss]

I guess I don't differentiate positioning in the same way. To me thats just bad positioning.

To me positioning is almost entirely a macro based idea.

[chilly granite]

I don't waste words. When I say spread pattern, I don't mean spread bloom, I mean spread pattern. When I say in fight/micro positioning, I say it to differentiate from macro positioning

[chilly granite]

That would explain why you don't position well for the gunplay

[unkempt moss]

How do you think i win gunfights, if not with aim?

[chilly granite]

Play some tdms, no objective just gun and kills, no spec, no gadgets, just take sa12 and focus on positioning to gain advantages in the fight

[chilly granite]

Heavy might be fat but cover is still effective , I promise, it works for me on heavy

That's why matter has more hp than the auto guns, it's because you are using cover

[unkempt moss]

I never even said spread pattern until you brought it up. I was talking about pellet spread the entire time.

Do you think im not using cover on heavy? With googun?

[chilly granite]

Dont call it positioning if you like, call it effective use of the map to close gap and protect yourself

[chilly granite]

If you can't force a figth to be within 10 meters with the SA, yes

[unkempt moss]

I said multiple times ive learned how to play SA now. It's one of my main guns now.

[chilly granite]

Then do it for the matter

Try doing a 0 death game on matter

Dash, gateway, flash frag, I had a one death game two days ago and it was against some guys I've played before who are gigasweats

CB and sniper players

[unkempt moss]

Can I just do it on dagger?

[chilly granite]

No, because dagger doesn't care about cover usage like matter does

It does in a somewhat different way, to be clear

I'm not saying you have to have 0 deaths, but at least do it until you don't think matter is a squishy weapon for light, becayse it really, really is not

One of the guys in that match plays CB with mines and turret, he's an absolute degen lol

That's pure tdm sweat right there

I just wanted to complain about him lol

[dry birch]

every time i give the arn another shot i just suck with the gun

i can't find the sweetspot for range on this gun

[chilly granite]

Fucking miles away

You want to be 1 pixel on the enemies screen beaming then

[dry birch]

yeah then i get blasted by people with actual stuff like repeaters and bfrs

[chilly granite]

Hide your body better, 1 pixel on their screen

I mean, it's not gameplay I enjoy, but that's how you do it

[unkempt moss]

Frost, play heavy and check back. Its the right way to play Finals.

[dry birch]

and my recoil control is not nearly good enough to laser people at 50m

i mean i primarily play heavy right now i'm just checking stuff out on light in random gamemodes for fun

[chilly granite]

Xp54 is probably what you want, 15-25 metres is the sweet spot, you can push it down to 10 but you gotta be cautious of m11s v9s matter

Xp54 is actually fun weapon unlike arn m11

[dry birch]

i wish it had a deeper mag

[chilly granite]

Or a less awful reload for sure

It needs more dakka somehow

It's about the same mag size effective as the M11 with like 1.7x the reload

Wait no it's smaller by a fair bit

[unkempt moss]

Heavy is home.

[chilly granite]

Hahaha

[chilly granite]

The other thing is that if you're used to using goo gun for cover, you're probably under utilising the map itself for cover because you always have that tool available

I'm pretty sure a lil cover practice in tdm would be helpful to you, even if you think tdm is degen shit

Goo houses are cozy

And again, not even tryna say your bad at it, just that it's probably a relative weakness compared to your other skills

Like when I play matter in cashout I feel like a brick wall gigachad lol, but if your aim is better than your natural cover usage, then that wouldn't be true, I'd feel way more confident with something like an arn or a m11

[unkempt moss]

I'm fine just being a macro guy I guess.

[chilly granite]

Not even one tdm 😢

[unkempt moss]

Its gotten me to ruby multiple seasons. So I'm not trying to change much up.

[chilly granite]

Hahaha

For sure, macro is vastly more important than micro in cashout anyway

Especially on heavy with dome shield

Like it doesn't matter if you win the fight because you chose a spot with nice distances and good cover, if it's miles away from the cashout and they steal for free hahah

Man that's bringing up some trauma for me 😭😭

[unkempt moss]

I don't use dome outside of hammer.

[dry birch]

bro dome is crazy

[unkempt moss]

It is good. I just forget about it with googun

[wraith orchid]

Yea, why dome, when you can make own dome with goo

By the way, I always find myself completely absorbed by the goo gun when i'm using it, unable to use my other gadgets or weapons correctly, am I doing something wrong, gooking?

[unkempt moss]

Not particularly. Try and find gadgets that aren't made redundant by the googun. I like antigrav, heal, destruction(not on hammer)

Grav and Heal make your googun stronger.

Biggest barrier is going to be using it as your main interaction with the game.

[analog pewter]

i have played 7 fucking matches of point break and gotten ONE win

I love being assfucked by EOMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[unkempt moss]

EOMM?

Early Onset Matchmaking

Excessively Online Matchmaking.

Every Orifice Matchmaking

Thats it.

[analog pewter]

engagement-optimized matchmaking

[unkempt moss]

Oh. Does the finals use that?

[analog pewter]

no idea i just assume every live service does atp

[unkempt moss]

At least flamethrower is still cool, right guys?

[analog pewter]

Nah

[unkempt moss]

I'll never understand the flamethrower hate.

[agile nova]

Can the riotsheild least have the eye protection cover like dark glass against flashbang?

[unkempt moss]

Yeah

[lucid cairn]

best medium gadets for p90 and cb01?

[sand monolith]

Pad, fib, goo

With everything on medium. Medium has no gadget variety really

[slow linden]

It literally can block a flashbang

[green ether]

how to ocunter these shields? i see many people running at me with shields I see them and i jump out of map you are not going to get me. but looking for another solution

[green ether]

i am runing nades mines and zip lines

[indigo nexus]

Try jumping somewhere other than the edge of the map

[slow linden]

Flamethrower,cl40,other melee weapons, leg and toe shots

Lockbolt and pyronade or gas if torture is your thing

[indigo nexus]

Riot shield is mainly only useful against mediums and lights due to objective play, when there’s no time pressure you can just… not engage with it, and make it so if they try to chase you, they’ll end up exposing their other sides to your teammates

jump pad or really any movement option is super effective in counter playing them

The biggest thing is just that the weapon is ineffective when two people have different angles on it. If you just stand apart from one another the riot shield player can’t do a lot to attack either of you efficiently

Heavy’s charge and slam is kind of a hard counter

[unkempt moss]

Play flamethrower

[slow linden]

I dunno I use it pretty effectively against heavies,but that's because most heavy mains in casual or really casual players don't know how to counter a lot of gimmick shit,funny thing is I'm bronze and yet grasp basic counter play

[indigo nexus]

Heavies can also just out-dps it in general, but it can be a bit tricky to not hit the shield so much.

[slow linden]

I say this as a heavy main btw we are pretty dumb

[green ether]

thing is i play medium class and going in with Fcar so when all of sudden see few of sheilds dont know how to counter with my explosion mine

[indigo nexus]

Well an explosive mine alone allows you to punish them for getting close, you could in many circumstances just prevent them from attacking you without triggering it if they don’t have data reshaper or something

Place it in a doorway and you can run back and forth and they can’t safely chase you

[green ether]

explain triggering for my friends here. I know what u mean by trigger but lots of these bronze might have no idea

[indigo nexus]

Still, teamplay is the main thing, you shouldn’t be fighting one by yourself whenever you can help it

[slow linden]

I run explosive mines and motion sensors on riot shield and play around my traps,riot shield is really good when used defensively but most are overly aggressive with it

[indigo nexus]

Er… walk up to it so it explodes.

[green ether]

even if walk up to it ? its safe if i walk up right

[indigo nexus]

Well if it’s your mine then yeah

[green ether]

amazing stuff

[indigo nexus]

If you play around one you automatically have a movement advantage, because there’s a zone a few meters wide that the shield user can’t enter and you can, without them being put at a health disadvantage.

[livid cradle]

Is it just me or are flashnangs kind of useless

They aren’t effective

[green ether]

while we are on subject how to counter medium double swords they sit in corner deflecting bullets and then charge when they see gap. i try shooting their feet but its not working so far

[indigo nexus]

Well they’re not meta but I definitely wouldn’t say they’re useless

[indigo nexus]

Do literally anything other than [one person shooting them]. When deflecting they are a sitting duck to any other kind of attack, and they can’t catch up to you.

[livid cradle]

If you are not staring directly at it when it detonated it has little effect

[indigo nexus]

A player sitting in a corner is not much of a threat to you anyway though

[slow linden]

Did you install the game just this instant? If so this is the perfect place for you I'm glad you are here rather than #👂┇game-feedback do not go there it is a stew of horrible opinions and bitterness

[indigo nexus]

If you’re close then having it anywhere in field of view will blind for several seconds

[green ether]

not this instant but kinda new and only playing medium class due to Fcar, and t hen akm. since use to play lots of games with AK involved

[slow linden]

The akm (and shak ig) is the only ar in this game that I respect,good choice,anywho,but heed my advice stay out of #👂┇game-feedback until you are experienced and can spot the good or decent opinions and laugh at the bad ones

[slow linden]

Enjoy the finals,there's no new shooter that is better and few old shooters that are equal

[livid cradle]

Yea but the effect is weak it’s still easy to see

[indigo nexus]

For a few seconds absolutely nothing can be seen, in that circumstance.

[slow linden]

Are you arguing for a flashbang buff? You do know direct impacts blind whether or not they're facing it or not right?

[indigo nexus]

Note that your flashbangs don’t affect you or your teammates as harshly as they do enemies.

[livid cradle]

No I didn’t know that

[slow linden]

They can still get you killed when your teammate throws one at your head

[livid cradle]

Does it insta blind?

[indigo nexus]

Well it’s definitely not gradual, but it doesn’t instantly detonate

[slow linden]

Yeah if they go off right behind you they full blind for the full duration,also I'm pretty sure the blind stacks so if your whole team runs flashbangs and avoids flashing themselves you can essentially stunlock a team to death and win pretty easily

[indigo nexus]

The radius just falls off way faster when you’re looking away from them

[shell sonnet]

got a taste of the bs ben was talking about

[livid cradle]

Ok nvm fb aren’t useless, I didn’t know that

[slow linden]

Note that they gotta be kinda close still

[livid cradle]

Yeah they only really work on indoors cashouts, otherwise you can’t guarrentee they will be close

[slow linden]

Nah like legit 8 feet away tops also riot shield can block flashes if they block

But yeah flash bangs are really good,also breach drills stack with flashbangs too

[livid cradle]

Breach drill is good

[shell sonnet]

they stack?
how?

duration? or do they just burn your retinas?

[slow linden]

Both,I've been hit by multiple flashbangs at the same time and been just stuck flashed for legit 17 seconds,only reason I lived was because I cocooned myself in the corner and filled the room with goo and mines and lit everything on fire

Didn't live much longer tho

[shell sonnet]

17s?
I need to try something

[green ether]

How u did that?

[shell sonnet]

you sure you didnt just get flashed again?
for me it only refreshed the duration when the 2nd flash hit

[shell sonnet]

some decoration has a physical hitbox

in this case, this spot that happens to exists on this specific door, has a hitbox, and sends it flying in another direction

unless you already know, or pay utmost attention to every little detail, even in combat, stuff like this can sometimes screw you over when using mgl

[slow linden]

It was simultaneous,3 at the same instant and I am assuming 3 more directly after,I am pretty positive that they stack but few take advantage of it

I was goo locked for quite some time,can't really reflash through goo

[frosty fractal]

yo anyone got any tips how to get good with the sword?

[errant stump]

Embark im here to sugest some improvement for us controller players, and no, i'm not asking for some sort of aim assist buff, what i'm really asking for, platically begging is an improvement for the joysticks and how they feel in game, a true 0 Deadzone would be so nice to have, micro ajustments would feel mutch more natural. Other nice improvemet would be a higher x/y sensitivity already is 750 why not go higher like 1000? let us roller player turn even faster plz. Thank you

[sudden pewter]

Where’s the BS?

[unkempt moss]

In our heart.

[sudden pewter]

Profound

[unkempt moss]

No I literally have a build of bs in my heart. The plaque will take me any day now.

[sudden pewter]

The collective spirit of all the Pikachu “My little butterfly” AMV edits from the early 2000’s may forgive you for your sins. However I have not.

[unkempt moss]

Win some, you lose some.

[sudden pewter]

You are hereby cursed with cold toilet seats.

[unkempt moss]

Being 440 pounds i run a bit hot. So I appreciate the help.

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/harry-potter-swole-gym-lifting-yoked-gif-27561206

only 440
Amateur Hour

[unkempt moss]

I have been working my whole life at it. We cant all be exceptional, this is pure hard work

[sudden pewter]

Try harder. I’ll bet you don’t even collect all your toenail clippings to sprinkle into your feeding trough for keratin maxxing

Rookie mistake honestly, I know you can’t be me but you can do better

[unkempt moss]

I can do better. You're right

[sudden pewter]

What weapon niches aren’t covered?
Weapon types aren’t a checklist, Light doesn’t need an MGL for example.
Heavy doesn’t need a sniper.
But what kind of weapon types or niches don’t exist in the context of The Finals?

[jovial crater]

Anybody know a way to counter a heavy using lock bolt and SHAK-50?

[sudden pewter]

I despise “Well it’s like X weapon but with Y”
So I’d prefer wholly unique weapons that play wholly unique from other offerings.

[sudden pewter]

Range. Shak is only effective within a certain range due to the split-bullet mechanism. Beyond that you can take advantage of its low magazine by utilizing cover. The reload is 3.3s iirc and that’s plenty time to punish

[jovial crater]

I’m relatively new to the game and last time I played I got shit on by a TTV running a heavy build and it was hell

Thank you for the advice

[sudden pewter]

TTV’s are a foul despicable kind, I wish you luck in the decimation of their ilk.

[jovial crater]

I searched him up and he was… let’s say, strange

[sudden pewter]

Tbh the best way for you to learn about the Shak is to use it yourself. You’ll quickly find where its weaknesses & strengths lay

[jovial crater]

I like staying medium tho

[sudden pewter]

Careful though, it’s the gold standard of weapon balance. Once you use it everything else will lose its color

[jovial crater]

The movement speed of heavy is just not compatible for my brain

[unkempt moss]

My number one right now would be the knock off spartan laser for heavy. Some sort of energy weapon in general. But having a shoulder mounted primary with a low fire rate using a charge time would be cool. It would probably exacerbate poke though

[sudden pewter]

Wrong. Centennial Cannon.

[stoic garden]

let's add hydrogen bombs into the game

[unkempt moss]

Like the ones on monaco?

[sudden pewter]

Anyone with TTV/YT in their name should have a damage vulnerability

[stoic garden]

what of people with "KICK"

[unkempt moss]

Should we start a wepsNgadg club in game.

[stoic garden]

I don't mind but i almost exclusively play with my friends and I'm european unlike 80% of the users who speak here

[sudden pewter]

I already have an Alfa Acta fanclub

[unkempt moss]

Okay.

[sudden pewter]

💅

I like the idea of what is essentially a single use weapon for Heavy as they’re generally the first in-last out, but how would we make it avoid the pitfalls of Sniper or Poke weaponry

Plus, what makes it different but not worse than the BFR? Instakilling Lights?

[unkempt moss]

I think the problem is my ADHD brain operates within certain ideas. One being the assumption that the BFR would be gutted.

I think it could be the first heavy weapon to instanuke a light because of the time between shots and reliance on spec/gadget.

You could have a drag mechanic so that you need to track the beam for full damage afterwards.

[sudden pewter]

I’m not a fan of OHK capabilities as a rule of thumb, it would be hilarious to give the little shits a taste of their own medicine but our goal should be to improve the game, not add more issues or continue them

[unkempt moss]

Have the charge time come with a laser that can be seen as like a warning

[sudden pewter]

Lights are already the most prone to being punished for bad positioning

[unkempt moss]

Maybe an aimlock once charging.

Or dont make it one hit. Just increase fire rate and make it do 140

[sudden pewter]

Yeah, OHK bad.

I think I could stomach an OHK if there’s some measure of skill expression beyond “pointing at head”. A projectile OHK is more tolerable than hitscan IMO

[unkempt moss]

To avoid a OHK you'd either have to make it so bad its unusable or make the fire rate decent which kind of goes against the identity of the gun.

[unkempt moss]

But you could movement and aim lock it, give a warning laser and sound.

I mean how hard are we holding the lights hands?

[sudden pewter]

Too much warning makes it frustrating for the user. Too little makes it frustrating for the victim.

Lights shouldn’t need handholding but unfortunately they’re simultaneously the weakest and strongest archetype depending on who you ask.

[unkempt moss]

It would already be an MGL situation where only some would use it anyway.

So its not really a good addition.

[sudden pewter]

Yeah, but we don’t want another gamemode specific weapon niche

Obviously this hypothetical laser weapon would be dogshit in something like H2H or perhaps Quick Cash. But in Point Break where the chaos of the arena is at an all time high? A Heavy could easily get an off angle

[unkempt moss]

It also depends on the personal philosophy. Because I dont mind the heavy having range and I've already talked about how I would nerf the BFR

[sudden pewter]

Heavy shouldn’t have range*

*easy poke

[unkempt moss]

See i was thinking the opposite. It would be terrible in point break but good in final round.

[sudden pewter]

Akimbo’s were perfect, unreliable ranged damage that had insane bloom scaling with RoF

[unkempt moss]

Because you wont be interrupted by things as easily in final round.

[sudden pewter]

But the BFR does everything it does, but easier

Not that it’s a direct upgrade, but certainly stronger at range. Something prior to the addition of the BFR, was considered a core weakness of the archetype

[unkempt moss]

To me, the ranged archetype fits the BFR better with it being a long barrel single gun pistol. Ive always disliked the deagles play though.

Here's my problem. Say we gutted the BFRs range. Made it better up close, which doesnt make sense for the gun type. The damage would be the next thing they go after.

It would also just be a worse KS depending on the nerfs.

[sudden pewter]

I agree with that, it makes sense Embark is hesitant to buff the KS into viability because they have to account for its demolition capabilities. The best melee weapon in the game atm serves a similar niche

They’re probably afraid of giving it too much juice so it doesn’t become a similar problem

[unkempt moss]

I think the BFR needs to have a slower fire rate when ADS. They already have the system in place to do my nerf to BFR. The have special animations for the hammer pull. Just make the hammer pull only when ADS, cut the fire rate. So people can get out of the way easier.

[sudden pewter]

So long as it doesn’t get a hipfire buff I’d be fine with that

[unkempt moss]

Then allow a faster fire rate from the hip by doing like a fan animation. Just make it not great accuracy.

Fanning should be like a last resort panic fight

[sudden pewter]

Giving it a unique fanning animation would send the wrong message, the majority of players are idiots

[unkempt moss]

Plus it would punish the low ammo count.

[sudden pewter]

“Oh this has fanning, clearly I’m meant to hipfire it”

[unkempt moss]

Thats a good point. Then keep it the same. I actually feel like the hip fire is good where its at right now. Usable but unstable.

[sudden pewter]

Useable but unreliable unless you’re still

[unkempt moss]

Perfectly balanced.

[sudden pewter]

Definitely not the Shak, and definitely not ideal.

Still flabbergasted Embark released it in the state they did.

[unkempt moss]

The reduced fire rate for accuracy i think fixes it because it would just lose outright to the better long range options, and close range options.

[sudden pewter]

We need a codified design doc from Embark ASAP

[unkempt moss]

Brother they dont even talk to us outside of patches.

[sudden pewter]

Yeah 😔

S15 will be when it all changes trust

[unkempt moss]

They have to be setting up for a large mid-season right?

We're almost there.

[unkempt moss]

I think the design philosophy is somewhat clear at this point. Everyone is getting everything.

[sudden pewter]

• Melee weapons as a whole are slated for a rework. High Priority
• Barricade Rework (no listed priority but we see evidence it’s being worked on)

[sudden pewter]

Yeah. But the state they’re released in needs QA desperately and they need to fucking talk with us about their intentions

“We don’t agree with the flavortext on the archetypes anymore. Rather than having Medium as the support specialist, we’re giving all archetypes options to heal, but intend for Medium to stay the king of support. But also we’re giving Light a gadget that more meaningfully supports via healing while in combat than the Medium can. We are an Enigma”

[unkempt moss]

The point break release was very illuminating on their ability to QA games.

[sudden pewter]

Yeah….

I love many of the changes and QoL S9 brought but holy fuck they still managed to bellyflop

[unkempt moss]

Also after playing light for a while now. Lights ability to support far outpaces mediums. Mainly because their support items are almost all very strong, while medium has a ton of terrible support items, some good, and good movement.

I really think support light is optimal as they are right now

[sudden pewter]

When does healing matter the most? In an engagement
What does the most healing in the shortest amount of time? H+
What is the safest healing option for the user? H+

Why does a gadget do healing more effectively when it’s needed the most than the dedicated healing spec?

[unkempt moss]

Light has better scramble healing, heavy has better poke healing.

[sudden pewter]

Why hasn’t embark ever brought this up or addressed it? Why did Embark leave the H+ almost unchanged for a full season?

[sudden pewter]

Chuck plays into Heavies defensive strengths. It’s a stationary healing orb that deactivates when picked up. It also heals less when it tethers to more players and nobody brings that up.

[unkempt moss]

Would you make heal gun a gadget?

I didn't even know it heals less with more people

[sudden pewter]

Could be interesting, but it’s a staple spec for Medium and would be insanely broken when combined with Demat. Does way too much

[unkempt moss]

True.

[sudden pewter]

I’d say H+ should be a spec but then it’s the opposite issue. It isn’t dash, so it isn’t viable.

(That’s the abridged rant, Light doesn’t need Dash but that’s the general consensus amongst the mouth breathers)

[unkempt moss]

It feels like we're cooked no matter what tbh.

I really felt the healing in the game last night on flamethrower.

[sudden pewter]

I mean yeah, Embark isn’t willing to remove content that doesn’t suite the state of the game. So we’re stuck with dagger as it is. They can’t go back and retroactively adjust Light because too much of the game is balanced around them.

That’s not a snide remark either, it’s just a fact that weapon balance needs to be adjusted for the lowest common denominator

In this instance, our large population of below average Light players

Pro Players aren’t the norm for better or worse.

[unkempt moss]

Im with you on that. I really feel like it makes a lot of guns feel awful balancing around the 150.

[steep zephyr]

whats the best gun for medium and heavy

[sudden pewter]

And there’s nothing they can do about it. If we buff Lights health then every weapon and gadget in the game needs to be adjusted. Embark can’t even change melee weapons

Let’s say Embark finally grows a pair and does sweeping changes. Hypothetically.

Embark now has 10-11 Months to get shit in line because TGM is already scheduled for this year and all the professional teams need to establish a new meta. Because Pro play isn’t casual play. It’s specifically formatted in a way to limit chaos and be effective in as many scenarios as possible

So now aside from completely changing everything we know about the game and its balance philosophy, they’re on a timer. Because Nexon expects bank on its investment

[indigo nexus]

CB-01 and BFR Titan, probably

[steep zephyr]

ty

[unkempt moss]

If embark is really going to focus on esports. Every major should mark a 2.0, 3.0, and so on. Season 9 should have been a finals 2.0 with a ton of changes and reworks and all of those sweeping changes.

[worn ice]

what is the most annoyin small combo

[unkempt moss]

Then maybe even the non-esport crowd has a reason to look in to it. TGM ends with a massive trailer on changes and stuff.

[sudden pewter]

ESPORTS is vital moving forward

Never let them live that down

[worn ice]

crys in tears

[sudden pewter]

I’m fucking waiting for an S5 Cerb or S8 93R situation again because I’ll throw that at them like a turd

How is overtuning XYZ conducive to ESPORTS

And it’ll be ignored as it always is. Because they need to “let the dust settle” before they make adjustments again

Or because they’re Swedish and need 2 months off

@unkempt moss come back who am I supposed to complain to when the channel is dead

[unkempt moss]

The weird thing to me is how they dont have a person on the balance staff who has even half the passion for the game that people like me or the other handful in here that only talk about balance and reworks.

[sudden pewter]

Maybe they do? He/She is just an idiot?

[unkempt moss]

Nah, there would be a lot more changes going on.

[sudden pewter]

Many of the players in this discord only enjoy the game at a surface level. Balance or identity isn’t important to them because if things sour they’ll just go back to Fortnite.

I don’t need to think about how a bunch of weapons are collecting dust in the corner, I just want new toys. More maps, more gadgets, more weapons.

Embark should add ults! And a stamina system! I need new things to keep me entertained also I main Light and I should have higher health

When S8 launched with no new weapons for Light there were fucking riots dude read #👂┇game-feedback

People threatened to uninstall. They said it was unacceptable.

[unkempt moss]

I think with a wepsNgadg style of balancing dweeb you'd have a lot more communication. Imagine if bow user was the balancing head. He'd be in the chat incoherently monologuing the entire time.

[sudden pewter]

Yes but he’s also objectively wrong in believing the game in its entirety should be balanced around only the way he plays

[unkempt moss]

That level of engagement would help with frustration too. Has the balancing team ever even come in here?

[unkempt moss]

That's why they hire me. Im the only reasonable one here.

[sudden pewter]

I do wish the devs would communicate more in the discord. Even if it’s just “I took a fat shit just now” at least make their presence known

As it stands we just ping the mods when we see bots. Or they step in when particularly stupid idiots spam the feedback channel

Day XX of spamming the feedback channel with doodoo feces!!!

And we can’t moderate that channel either, it’s quarantine. If we start filing complaints it’ll leak into here and I’ll have a fucking aneurism

[serene glade]

I basically said the same thing last night. It's so weird how little I hear from the devs

[sudden pewter]

Every time a member of the rabble comes in here it gets worse

Oscar is the face of Embark from a PR standpoint but I don’t believe he actually handles anything in terms of development or balance. He’s a mouthpiece

[serene glade]

Is he the one who randomly streams on Thursdays after patches on the finals channel. I never watch those

[sudden pewter]

Yes

Nothing against Oscar, but him being the forefront for Embark means there’s nobody we can meaningfully communicate with or blame with a face.

Once every blue moon we get some brave idiot actually ping a developer and say something meaningful and deep like “nerf sword” or “buff sword” and at most they’ll get the response of “we’ll pass this along”

(Nothing against this support staff so I cut out the name)
This is generally all we can expect in terms of communication from Embark. Never direct comments, just “we’ve pushed this to X department. Thanks!”

[slow linden]

I love killing and ruining the fun of this specific kind of light,if you main dash with automatics and just spray from height and run as soon as someone wants to fight specifically you I don't want to hear any complaints about the hell that I'm going to put you in

[serene glade]

71 embark roles online right now as well. Never heard of these people nor would have guessed that many people are associated with the company

[serene glade]

Were they active during the weekly changes

[slow linden]

I agree entirely with this but I'm too scared to say it myself for fear of being nuked

[sudden pewter]

Imagine if Embark had a public facing balance team/member(s) akin to say Digital Extremes Pablo (my beloved). He actively communicates with the community, directly receiving feedback. When issues arise, he’s communicative with what is and isn’t feasible, and what is and isn’t on the table.

When something is reworked, he shares it. Not DE. He’s right there explaining the changes. He isn’t a ghastly figure in a dev room, he’s a person and acts as such.

Where is that for Embark?

I’m not asking for someone I can point my finger at and blame for bad decisions. I’m asking for a person to be our window into the balance room. Someone to communicate with the community about missteps and intentions behind decisions.

Keep Oscar as PR. That’s fine, but can we at least have a once a month visit and discussion with someone from the balance team?

[slow linden]

Ngl the most fun metas were from open beta to season 3

[sudden pewter]

Can we have Oscar ask questions pertinent to balance? Even if the questions are vetted by Embark and cleansed of actual community concerns?

[serene glade]

You should never let a game like this have it's meta settle imo

[slow linden]

I would rather a heal meta than a poke meta

[serene glade]

I tried to get some of my friends who never played finals to give the game try last night. Unranked cashout was full of nothing by dashing lights so it was frustrating for them already. Playing on Seoul and a team took both boxes and camped the hospital and stalled the final 2 minutes out so nobody could dunk. They said they aren't playing again. Good work embark 👍

[sudden pewter]

We have terrible new player retention, fact

[slow linden]

They keep the meta pretty stale,it's always poke or boring automatic just going back and forth every season now,any time melee or shotguns or launchers or any silly shit becomes meta for even a little bit it gets violated and forgotten by the balance team

[sudden pewter]

I only got one of my friends into playing the game because they introduced TDM. He hated Quick Cash and refuses to play H2H because we had a single awful random Light teammate so the entire game was a 2v3

He’s in love with Point Break but Heavies winching or lockbolting the OBJ to their spawn and sitting in an area we can’t push is definitely still a huge issue

[serene glade]

Don't forget the cl40 was decent one short span recently and they nerfed it to the ground in like one week because it upset lights

[sudden pewter]

Same thing will happen to turret

[slow linden]

Those lights are upset by anything that kills them,these are the people embark is making the game for,not us

[serene glade]

Hindsight I should have gotten them on point break, but I think the cash out mode is just the game to me. Like I can shoot guns and play rush in battlefield. But can't play cashout anywhere else. Big mistake to keep them playing on my end

[sudden pewter]

Yeah, Cashout is the vanilla experience. It’s what the game is ideally balanced around. Unfortunately it isn’t the friendliest to new players

[slow linden]

Sure we get a seat at the table but do we have as much sway as these boring spammy roof camping vermin? No they have far more influence than us

[sudden pewter]

Point Break is a healthy medium as it retains the OBJ gameplay and exemplifies the chaos of the game. Individual performance isn’t as important on a team of 8 so one bad player doesn’t immediately ruin the game for others

A Light with MC Syndrome in QuickCash can make a game unwinnable. It’s a 3v3v2.

A Light with MC Syndrome in PB is the norm. But ape together strong. And if aforementioned player is on the defending team there’s no punishment for death, just a respawn timer

Infinitely easier for new players to grapple with

[slow linden]

They better not nerf turret,it needs buffs about as urgently as MGL

[serene glade]

embark doesnt need new players for the finals tho

[sudden pewter]

I’m introducing another friend to the game tonight and I’m going to bottle feed him TDM and PB. He will not touch Cashout until he’s at least lvl20

[serene glade]

esports will carry

[slow linden]

Throw him into ranked right away 😈

[slow linden]

Esports if they focus on it over balance and innovation will kill the game if anything

[serene glade]

they said its vital, new player retention isnt vital

[sudden pewter]

Vital to the games future bro trust

[slow linden]

We are so fucked

[coral dirge]

lol

[wraith orchid]

How about both? healing promotes poking

[unkempt moss]

Sometimes poking something heals you too

[sudden pewter]

Jelly of healing

[compact tundra]

I've never understood that playstyle outside of comp, it's so anti fun. The only autos I use are M11 and rarely the ARN but camping roofs is so boring, I rather just jump in a mother fuckers face, spit in his eye, and challenge him to a duel

[slow linden]

Honestly in a healing meta anything is fine,poke is far stronger absent from a healing meta though

[unkempt moss]

Opinions?

[compact tundra]

A wall hacks buff, God please no, that would ruin the Asian servers

The range limit helps some but the amount of fuckers on Asian servers with wall hacks would make that weapon a cheaters wet dream

[unkempt moss]

I do feel a piercing weapon could be at home in the finals though

[compact tundra]

I think it could be too, just embark has let us down enough, buffing wall hacks would suck so much. Plus it would make camping with proxy's way more annoying

[slow linden]

Sadly light by its very design attracts more honorless cowards than people with whimsy or sportsmanship,mediums about in the middle,and heavy is mainly honorable unless they run winch claw

[unkempt moss]

Sonar plus pierce would be annoying.

[slow linden]

Heavies that partake in winch claw feed the parasite that is killing heavy,they are the most selfish players of this game

[dry birch]

what's the best lmg to be using right now on heavy

[compact tundra]

I disagree, Embarks shitty handling of the winch is killing heavy. Winch claw is a fun spec that allows for really cool plays

[slow linden]

They nerf anything with synergy to winch,I'd rather it be removed and all nerfed around it be restored

[serene glade]

Whichever one you have a cooler skin for

[slow linden]

It may not have been intended to be parasitic but embark corrupted it into one

[compact tundra]

Or just nerf the winch and let a fun spec with lots of creative and cool uses stay in the game...

[compact tundra]

Add a wind up time, make it trade with C&S and not pull them in, problem solved

[sudden pewter]

Awful

[slow linden]

They've nerfed it to hell and they still won't give me back old Sledge or blunderbuss sa12

[compact tundra]

SA-12 is still meta without it, it pairs really well with mesh shield as well. Sledge could use a buff tho

[sudden pewter]

Yeah, lemme just disregard Shields + Barricades + Goo. Lemme get a weapon to empower cheaters using walls and make several gadgets useless for several weeks

[slow linden]

Everything that specialization has clicked with they hollowed out and abandoned

[compact tundra]

BFR titan... ShAK-50...

SA-12... Which is still the meta

[serene glade]

yeah, lemme get 2 bigmacs and a large strawberry shake to empower my fatass

[slow linden]

Sa12 is no longer the same weapon that it was,I don't want this clunky piece of shit,I want the thing that deleted anything that was vaguely in front of you and took four centuries to reload,I don't want the sledgehammer that we have now,I want untouched open beta Sledge back

[compact tundra]

Sir you know as well as I do the ice cream machine is broke

[serene glade]

[sudden pewter]

Possibly a bad idea: ~~Give the mediums an automatic Glock with a drum-mag as a standalone weapon, but give it the 6.5×25 mm APDS rounds from the following video:
https://youtube.com/shorts/vXr8p2LsKYI?si=RBuKZAnpiNQZjmpq~~

~~Make it so that the Glock can pierce through objects in-game that would normally stop bullets (walls, floors, doors, walls of goo, physical barricades, etc), but only at close ranges (<10 metres).

The Glock wouldn't outright destroy walls like the KS-23; it would just shoot through the walls, like the guns in CS can.~~

[compact tundra]

So you want a 16 shot, good sustain shotgun with a high fire speed to delete people for looking at them in close range. You just want the shotgun to be broken again

[slow linden]

Titan saw nerfs,they made it more awkward rather than give it falloff,they gave it random nerfs rather than balance,I'm not sure what has ever happened to shak but I'm fairly certain shak has always been perfectly balanced as far as I know

[sudden pewter]

Novel? Yeah.
OP on principle? Probably not.
Infinitely better than “give sniper irons”

[slow linden]

It was 4 shot,and took like 5 seconds to rotate the tube

[serene glade]

i used sniper with dash for the first time ever last night, it does NOT need irons

[slow linden]

Four shots,5 second wait timer probably going to be pushed and annihilated

[sudden pewter]

YOU JUST HATE FUN

[compact tundra]

But it's still perfectly fine as it is, it's a unique shotgun that requires tracking and rotation management over just aim and positioning, why make it simpler and less unique? Cause just it used to be even better, it's still one of the best weapons on heavy

[slow linden]

I didn't use it much then but it didn't feel like a chore to use,shotguns should never be a chore to use they're supposed to be simple

[compact tundra]

So we only make simple shotguns? I like that the SA-12 is unique and has a different play style to other shotguns, like the ks-23, they're unique and different

[noble saddle]

I'm having trouble with dual blades the build I'm trying to pull off is an ambush focused support/assassin hybrid but the lack of mobility and range is just so tough lol.

The idea behind the build is to either locate teammate statues and pop defib and get them back in immediately, or to locate an enemy and either drop them onto me or drop myself onto them but it just doesn't work at all in practice hahaha

How do I make this concept work

Rn the loadout is blades, defib, jump pad, motion sensor

Should I swap pad for zipline? Should I run double movement? Idk.

Maybe it'll never work lol

Istg the Cerberus would be an upgrade here

[slow linden]

The ks23 feels simple to use,it's not a chore,you just point and click and have fun,double barrel,matter,cerb all share in this,model does too kinda??? Depends on if people are running dash or not I hate that desync basically gives dash lights i frames

[sudden pewter]

Dual Blades isn’t conducive to an Ambush weapon. That would imply a burst of damage rather than a 3 hit combo

[noble saddle]

Dual blades isn't a weapon period

[compact tundra]

Trade the sonar for the goo nade
The goo and allows you to lock people in place and you can put your jump pad on the goo wall to angle it for a really good launch angle

[noble saddle]

Yea I was thinking this could be the move also

[slow linden]

The cerb is really dogshit after being butchered though,but it's just barely usable in some situations so embark will never touch it again

[noble saddle]

Is the Cerberus worse than dual blades is the question

[slow linden]

They're about equal after dual blades got that awkward buff not that long ago

[noble saddle]

The problem with blades is that I'm fuckin dead before I get the last hit of the combo out lmao

[sudden pewter]

Are you still orbiting your Heavy? (When applicable ofc)

[compact tundra]

It might be a chore to you, but I find it fun and engaging, your saying it's bad based off of personal playstyle, but I like it quite a lot and if you hit meat shots then it certainly packs a fucking punch. It just doesn't delete everyone now, heavies take the most shots but they're by far the easiest to hit. Mediums die decently quickly but take a few more shots to hit, and lights die really quickly but are damn hard to hit, it is pretty well balanced

[slow linden]

Fr,the deflect should honestly do double crit and should be able to deflect projectiles like grenades and goo and arrows and knives

[noble saddle]

I dont want to feel reliant that my heavy is gonna be aware of the game. This is kinda the problem with the blades in general is it feels like I'm so dependant on my team to be smart and I can't be the one that starts the momentum. They're more reactionary and feel incredibly inconsistent because of it

[slow linden]

I don't like it's weird staggered firerate or spread pattern at all,I find them loathsome

[sudden pewter]

Yeah, relying on teamates isn’t fun. But it is a team game and you can’t expect to do everything yourself (for better or worse)

[slow linden]

That's how you should be playing medium in general tbh,protect your heavy and your heavy will protect you,breaking this cycle will only lead to both of your deaths

[noble saddle]

No I get this obviously I can't one man Army but it's a matter of blades really don't work if my team is a second late on pushing an advantage.

Other builds I can still apply pressure when we've got some momentum but blades I just fucking die if I move in alone so I'm just praying someone on my team actually pushes lol

[slow linden]

Yeah,you're a medium main not a light main

[sudden pewter]

Yeah, blades aren’t a frag weapon. IMO they shine when it comes to support

[noble saddle]

The issue I'm having with them is as a support tool I don't see why you'd ever run em over riot shield

[sudden pewter]

Damage on the approach

[thin birch]

Medium and heavy melee is just kinda meh rn

[slow linden]

You shouldn't run them over riot shield,they're a season 2 weapon,season 2 is the worst and most neglected balance wise season of all

[sudden pewter]

Heavy has the strongest melee weapon in the game. The two are not comparable

Begone yellow. Biden Blast 💥

[compact tundra]

Idk I like them, makes it really feel like a weird automatic shotgun, I wouldn't mind a simple normal shotgun on heavy with good damage, but i'd want it to be something new rather than taking away this unique and good weapon

[thin birch]

Hammer kinda struggles at high elo

And spear is just dog water

[sudden pewter]

Melee as a whole struggles at high elo.

[thin birch]

True, remember when it wasn't like that though, the good old days

I wish we could back time, to the good old dayyyys

[slow linden]

Give heavy a non-sawed off double or triple barrel,hell even a 4 barreled shotgun,or a drilling if anyone here knows what that is

[thin birch]

Give heavy a martini henry

[compact tundra]

It's the only melee weapon seen at high elo tho, nothing else besides maybe riot or a cracked dagger can work up there. Also the meta is L M H so all the classes are in a pretty decent spot rn and heavy certainly isn't bad, it's arguably the best ARCHETYPE rn at high levels

[slow linden]

With a bayonet

[sudden pewter]

Class? I expected better from you

[thin birch]

And long press melee button to charge at the enemy

[sudden pewter]

There it is

[compact tundra]

There you go pookie

[slow linden]

Hammer didn't need the nerf it got,they took the soul out of hammer

[thin birch]

In Chinals hammer kinda cracked because it's the old damage and breakpoints

[slow linden]

No just a stronger quick melee,nothing too complex

[thin birch]

Battlefield 1 reference if nobody got it

Weapons that change quick melee behaviour sound cool

[slow linden]

Heavy does need an M2browning and a chainsaw though

[unkempt moss]

If its the best then why do I have so much trouble learning it? Is it another SA situation?

[thin birch]

It's just hard to get close to enemies as heavy and they get away quick from you

[sudden pewter]

Spear is very lackluster but Sledge is stupid easy. No idea how some people can’t comprehend it’s the best melee in the game

[serene glade]

Best melee in the game is my quick melee actually sweaty

[sudden pewter]

I can’t just say “skill issue” either because it’s toxic and then they stop listening

[thin birch]

Tbh it's just really easy to outrun a sledge

Especially lights, sledge can't touch them even with winch

[sudden pewter]

The slowest archetype has difficulties keeping pace with the most mobile archetype? Wild

[thin birch]

That's why sledge isn't that good, it need to be in melee range but it can't because heavy isn't mobile enough

[sudden pewter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/856603795738722307/1425920121473470554/togif.gif

[thin birch]

Nobody is saying heavy should be able to keep up with a light

[sudden pewter]

or Troll. Call it

[serene glade]

i think sledge is good because you can also play the game on defense

[thin birch]

Sledge is good but melee as a whole especially on heavy and medium just isn't that strong

[serene glade]

the melee arguments are always i cant run this light down, but like brother hold your ground and deny space

[thin birch]

On defence it's pretty good though, they come to you instead you going to them

[muted condor]

I picked up deagles this week

[thin birch]

Sometimes you just need that last hit to turn things around but you can't because they're one pixel too far

[serene glade]

i feel like the biggest issue i see is with melees getting to that position and then feeling the need to overextend to get the kill

[dry birch]

another point break match where the defenders put the vault at the red border

[sudden pewter]

Light at the end thought he was tuff

[thin birch]

If you're the last one on your team they can just keep running circles around you till you die

[sudden pewter]

Report the players responsible and action will be taken. If you have any video use #video-player-reports

[thin birch]

Melee is also kinda map dependent, dear god imagine playing hammer in kyoto

[dry birch]

is it actually reportable to move it to the red border

[serene glade]

yeah i mean if you are the last alive on your team with any weapon its gonna be hard no? i do think melee is neglected but people complain about the wrong things or just understand something is bad but then ram their head into a wall over and over again expecting things to change.

[sudden pewter]

Per support: Yes.

[muted condor]

We must humble the prideful

[thin birch]

I meant 1v1

[sudden pewter]

(This is me submitting a report of a player doing the same thing)

[dry birch]

how would i know who is responsible for this if i'm the attackers and didn't see them set up

[sudden pewter]

Hold tab. The only players capable of manipulating the OBJ horizontally are Heavies.

Lockbolt + Winch can be used to drag it.

[thin birch]

If your teammate got the last enemy down to 1hp the last guy just runs away from you then heals up and shoots you from distance, if heavy had a gun all he would need to do is put a bullet in the enemy

[unkempt moss]

Catter clowns me for asking for help. Crazy

[sudden pewter]

If nobody else will I gotta

[thin birch]

These are just my personal experiences as a hammer main back when they first released winch, it went from being able to winch light attack a light(which is op) to winch light attack qm(which tbh was fine) to now the stun not lasting long enough to hit them.

[sudden pewter]

It’s all up to where you are and what enemy gamers are doing. Ultimately gamesense will carry you but aping is a valid strategy if your team is behind you

[sudden pewter]

Barricade.

[thin birch]

Not consistent have you ever tried placing a barricade

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/poopman-poop-stain-homunculus-gif-5894943418330622711

[thin birch]

Out of all the melee I'd probably rank them
1.sword
2.hammer
3.dagger
4.riot
5.dual
6.spear

[sudden pewter]

You’re unsalvageable. Have a nice day

[thin birch]

As a dagger main when seeing a heavy hammer i usually think free kill just time the heavy attack and backstab

[unkempt moss]

Im too dumb to hammer it seems

[thin birch]

Tbh goo with hammer is good, juts a bit of a pain to get close to them

[unkempt moss]

Ill get there though. My MGL duo tells me to stop using it and then plays dash sniper.

I thought i could play hammer more aggro

[thin birch]

I personally think goo is better with hammer, you can lock down your enemy from a distance, you can chase enemies or build barriers, you can even manipulate the cashout, you also can use it for goovement and it doesn't have a cooldown

[sudden pewter]

If you can play MGL you can sledge

[unkempt moss]

MGL is on my list to take to the next level. I'm trying to be great, not decent is the problem.

I'm like a C- sledge player. I want to be a B+

[thin birch]

Mgl is just hella inconsistent. Embark said mgl rework for like 3 seasons now

[unkempt moss]

GooGun is the only thing making me C-, otherwise it would be a D-

[thin birch]

Mgl players waiting for the rework

[unkempt moss]

I'm trying to think of what my personal best weapons would be on heavy.

[thin birch]

For me minigun and shak

[sudden pewter]

Shak better be on that list

[slow linden]

Its never coming

[thin birch]

HHAAAAHAJAJA

[slow linden]

Spear will never be good or reliable either

[thin birch]

Remember this for 2067 when spear becomes meta for 1 week because of a bug

[slow linden]

And they will gut it to be even worse than before because the balance team is awful and incompetent

[unkempt moss]

I feel like every heavy player has a pocket shak, right?

[sudden pewter]

I’d hope. Shak is golden

[unkempt moss]

To me saying you play heavy means you have a shak, lmg, and a specialty.

[slow linden]

Most of the time but after the Lewis buff I have been using Lewis gun more

[unkempt moss]

Shak is the workhorse of the heavy. It's not flashy but it gets the job done

[sudden pewter]

Shak ✅
Lewis ✅
Minigun ✅
Checks out.

[slow linden]

Lewis,minigun,shak and flamethrower are probably heavys most reliable weapons,flamethrower could use a small buff or rework,but that's just my personal fantasy

[unkempt moss]

I know its a cardinal sin to the council of heavies, but i love the flamethrower.

[compact tundra]

Na bro, flamethrower is so fun once you learn how to use your gadgets and spec

[unkempt moss]

Being able to focus on movement and setting traps is so nice a chance when you use guns all the time.

[compact tundra]

I'd love to see an alt fire in it but honestly it's pretty balanced as is, just suffers at higher elos due to its high ttk

[unkempt moss]

My M2 thruster is coming. Trust me.

[compact tundra]

That's why it's so fun, it takes the focus off the gun and on everything else

[unkempt moss]

Its looked down on because its not a epic aimer gun. Its fun to find a way to make a 5minutes ttk work somehow

I think if I buffed the flame thrower legitimately and not my meme thruster. Id make it ramp in damage so it was a little better against heavies and about the same against lights.

[compact tundra]

Idk why but people don't ever think of skill as anything more than aiming, there's so much more skill to the game other than aiming

[unkempt moss]

Thats the beauty of this game. People like me can do well by outsmarting the other team, not just by left click.

We're never getting an anti heal to fire. So making the flamethrower do more damage under sustained fire would probably be how I do it.

[compact tundra]

God do I want anti heal fire, it'd fix so many problems in one move

[unkempt moss]

I think even the meangreens agree it would be a good overall change to the game.

[compact tundra]

Entire Heal meta nerfed
Pyro nade and mine buffed
Thrower buffed but not annoying
Cerb buffed but not annoying

In one move the entire meta has been rebalanced slightly

[serene glade]

smoke indirectly buffed

[compact tundra]

The only issues to arise would be the indirect nerf to gas. But I think that can be worked on

Tho smoke gets extra indirect buff cause of invincible gas

[unkempt moss]

Gas doing percent damage probably the play

[serene glade]

i like gas breaking on dome shields and mesh shieldsand being a way to combat dome on other classes with a grenade

[compact tundra]

That's what I wanted

[compact tundra]

Gas explodes on impact wouldn't be a bad change, it'd hurt dome (which needs some more counters after the winch nerf) and it's make gassing through walls better

[unkempt moss]

I think gas becoming impact, percent damage, and making the interaction between fire and gas(explosion) do damage.

[compact tundra]

That'd honestly probably do it. Gas still wouldn't be perfect but it'd have it's uses

[unkempt moss]

Make those changes and let them sit for a bit. Turn the knobs and get them good to go.

[serene glade]

how about instead of that, you get a matter .004 ads speed buff?

[wet night]

They should give Heavy a great sword skin

[unkempt moss]

Yeah

[queen rock]

I would love an FN F2000 in this game

[unkempt moss]

Yeah

[compact tundra]

The Spear is literally a great sword, idk why we don't have one already to be honest

[fathom gazelle]

Imagine a player on fire that walks into gas, igniting it and exploding with big damage

[compact tundra]

It just makes so much sense, I wish embark would just listen to us on this one

[unkempt moss]

That would actually give gas some synergy with flamethrower/cerb too.

Throw some gas in front of someone. Help secure kills with gas grenade

[errant stump]

Embark im here to sugest some improvement for us controller players, and no, i'm not asking for some sort of aim assist buff, what i'm really asking for, platically begging is an improvement for the joysticks and how they feel in game, a true 0 Deadzone would be so nice to have, micro ajustments would feel mutch more natural. Other nice improvemet would be a higher x/y sensitivity already is 750 why not go higher like 1000? let us roller player turn even faster plz. Thank you

[serene glade]

You think after posting this 500 times and them not responding that maybe it's time to hang it up

[thin birch]

They should make gyro better and add native flickstick support

Flickstick solves that turning faster problem and gyro gets rid of the aim assist controversy.

[shell sonnet]

same