💣┇weapons-gadgets

[serene glade]

We must think of the poor Sri Lankans who will be unable to play for 15 minutes

[sudden pewter]

I’m still waiting for tangible benefits from the Premium+ BP. Servers still doodoo, balance is slow, and skin quality hasn’t largely improved. (Ursa is still broken on Heavy M2 Body) and the Baihu chest also looks funky

[serene glade]

The crop top kpop shirt goes crazy on the fat heavy male tho ngl ngl

Gut maxing

[sudden pewter]

They have to fix my $30 Ursa set right meow!!!

[unkempt moss]

Isn't it crazy that tomorrow is the day Embark fixes the finals? All the reworks are finished and sweeping balance changes

[sudden pewter]

Yeah, we joked about the melee rework in S20 but it’s so brave of Embark to announce its slates for tomorrow

For better or worse In excited to see what they’ve been planning for 4 seasons

[unkempt moss]

Almost a year of development time. It's going to be amazing

Finals 2.0 in season 9. Who would have thought

[serene glade]

"not to toot our own horns but this mid season patch is going to be one of the most massive changes to the game we've ever done"

[unkempt moss]

A spongebob collab where we get to fight in bikini bottom would be a way for them to fix the game.

Imaging holding the cashout in the k krab.

[sand monolith]

Did they say this

[serene glade]

i remember them hyping up a mid season balance patch before and it ended up being a nothing burger a couple of seasons ago

[unkempt moss]

Can I get a drip check on my standard Mr. Finals? I need to know if I'm dripping or drowning.

[analog pewter]

Black cat tail tomorrow trust

[sudden pewter]

And fox ears (to match the tail)

[analog pewter]

Until it happens I will keep asking in #👂┇game-feedback

[muted condor]

Love me a silver fox

[unkempt moss]

That's just a Common Mr. Finals. I got some Ultra Rares and Mythics in the bag too.

[indigo nexus]

not even a neon smh

[compact tundra]

Mr. Finals looks like if you mixed an Indian street food cart with a CIA agent

[unkempt moss]

We're no longer friends

[serene glade]

sri lankan*

[shell hornet]

why can sword charge a lunge while invis, im a sword player and we dont need that shit

[unkempt moss]

He's just sweaty from trying to keep his giant ass up with lights.

[serene glade]

their walking speed is just as fast as your fat ass sprinting so yeah i can see it

[unkempt moss]

I think im going back to the white tie from the Vaiya days

The black is too much.

[analog pewter]

that's not mr finals. this is mr finals

[muted condor]

That’s John Random

[spring spear]

thats leon s kennedy in 1998 during a work off day

[unkempt moss]

Ain't no way Mr. Finals is a medium. Grandma Finals is a medium though

I do have a semi-rare Young Mr. Finals.

[lethal crest]

what would yall rate the bow

[frosty token]

I don't know, but it looks cool and is a bow in a gun game. I've been wrecked by exactly one. Full draw does a lot of damage.

Only been playing Quick Cash so far and one-trick Medium at the moment. Heal beam, Dual Blades, Defib, Jump Pad, and Smoke Grenades are my current loadout for just ensuring maximum annoyance in not being dead for my team.

[unkempt moss]

We dont dare speak of bow here.

[agile nova]

THE RIOT SHEILD IS TOO OVERPOWERED 🗣🤌

[unkempt moss]

Is that you making those noises?

[frozen harbor]

Nerf lock bolt duration or hp it’s horrible embark

Or can u let us be able to block LOS TO RELEASE TETHER

[unkempt moss]

Embark doesnt read this channel. You have to put it in feedback.

[frozen harbor]

Thanks

[muted condor]

Embark, kill this man

[visual jungle]

What meta for a L build

[unkempt moss]

We really need to pin the meta loadouts to the channel.

[muted condor]

Hot take. If you can’t find the meta load outs yourself while playing you’re not on a level that they are needed

[unkempt moss]

That's not what people want to hear even if its true.

[unkempt moss]

ARN, Dash, Gateway, Vanish, H+

[muted condor]

Having the best gun and gadgets won’t get you more wins if your base skills are lacking

Positioning, tech knowledge, and game sense are more important than a load out

[unkempt moss]

Right, but thats not an easy answer. Most people dont want to actually get better at things.

That's why you get all these solo queuers that have never been the reason for their own losses even once in their life. And they will never admit it.

They just perpetually blame every one but themselves for losing.

I had someone tonight give up on am entire round 2 minutes in because we had it stolen and it was legitimately their missplay. The missplay wasn't the problem, it was the loser mentality and willingness to give up.

This was the second round btw, we had already won the first qual round

All of this to say, asking questions like this is a mindset issue.

[visual jungle]

Would u say the m12 good too

M11*

[unkempt moss]

Yes. Possibly better than the ARN.

[visual jungle]

Bettt

[unkempt moss]

ARN is more versatile

[visual jungle]

Ok ok

[cerulean furnace]

It's definitely the worst feeling seeing those players just give up and leave immediately the moment stuff goes wrong, like damn where's the sportsmanship. Accept the loss and move on instead of screwing ur team over like that

[wraith orchid]

It's spear with healing emitter

[lofty parrot]

Laser sword

[cerulean furnace]

I solo queue a lot and if I lose a game, I could've played better. Simple as that.
I only left games where I know that the enemy teams are legit just griefing and extending the length of the match the entire time

[wraith orchid]

Honestly, my recent solo games have been complete lunacy

[lofty parrot]

I always get shot from across the map from laser presision sniper lasers, Emberk, we need personal sheilds rhat stop snioers from 360 head shots, Personal laser swords to caterize the wounds and sheilds

[indigo nexus]

Heal emitter + goo gun could actually be insane for survivability, I should try it

[pale lantern]

Give heavy 950 JDJ

[chilly granite]

it's worse than the arn,v9s etc

slightly worse than the matter but much more competative with it now

[hardy dust]

A niche pick. Not meta but can do very well if you put in the time to learn it. About average compared to the rest of light's weapons if you consider it's strengths, but on the harder side to use.

[near scroll]

it is

[chilly granite]

yes and no

part of what makes the arn, gateway, dash so good is that they're very forgiving for positioning

Like the same player with ARN/Gateway/H+/glitch/dash will just be a higher RS than if they played grapple/matter/smoke/flash/vortex

Having the best stuff won't help if you don't take advantage of it, which is part of the reason why I prefered flashes to gateway, because I always fucked my gateway throws

I've spent like a week playing just gateway and now i'm way more confident throwing it and I can get way more value out of it than flashes now

But yeah, positioning wins duels and gamesense wins fights, regardless of weapon or loadout

most weapons are usable even at a high level if you play to their strengths properly for sure

[hardy dust]

Kinda? But a bad player with a good loadout will do much worse than a good player with a bad loadout. It does make a difference, but not one that's super quantifiable

[chilly granite]

100%

skill is by far the biggest diferentiator always

a good player can make flashes a huge problem for their enemy, a bad player won't even get effective use out of RPG (oof looking at myself inthe mirror)

hehehehe

idk how you're meant to make smokes good right now? but I'm certain there are players who can make good use of smokkes

tbh I get some value out of rpg at least, I'm so bad at using dome shield it's usually negative value for me

and dome shield is probably the strongest single gadget in the gameright now?

[haughty verge]

lol

hey everyone

[hardy dust]

Kinda? Its super strong but glitch counters it so well that its sometimes worth not taking

But excluding that its probably top 2 at least

[chilly granite]

but certainly you get my point that even wiht it being for sure extremely strong, a bad player can fail to get value from it

and each bad player has unique weaknesses which also complicates things, like my macro positioning is bad which is why I struggle wth getting valuefrom gateway in particular

like, I can use basically any gun and do decently well because I'm good at playing in my prefered range in a fight and positionig well for a weapon, but positioining with my team and for objectives, I'm not good at

[hardy dust]

Fair, it takes a long time to get good at

I'm still quite far off from being super good at positioning but I find playing around with melee ironically made my positioning a lot better

Although it depends a lot on what weapon you use too so I'm still not as good with some

[chilly granite]

That's also why I stand by my opinion that ARN is op, even though the numbers don't really speak truth to that

It's just way too forgiving on positioning compared to every other light weapon, and the ttks aren't even much worse for it

Like the XP only beats the m11 for like 17 meters? It starts losing again at 30 meters and only wins out at 13 or so

Meanwhile the arn is better than the m11 at like 14meters and is never beaten

The arn is a slight, slight downgrade (and honestly an upgrade over the XP with tighter hip fire and bigger mag) in close range and a huge upgrade at long range

If you use the m11, (or God forbid, the XP) then you need to be much more mindful of taking fights at distance and positioning for your gun, for a pretty small benefit in relatively limited circumstances

The arn needs to be more shit in close range

It shouldn't be able to kill a light faster in cqb than the matter can

(with body shots)

[frosty token]

My use of Smokes comes from being obsessed with Dual Blades Medic. I love knowledge checking people who just keep shooting at my parry, but being the loadout is beam, blades, defib, jump pad, that loadout cannot fight in open spaces nor has any range options at all, so I use smoke to make cover for gap closing whether I'm looking to defib/revive/beam or using it on an objective and just hold LMB while people don't know where to shoot in enclosed spaces.

[indigo nexus]

ARN has worse hipfire than the XP

[indigo nexus]

matter greatly reduces its ttk with quick melee, not sure this is too meaningful. Especially given the high burst damage it has

I think it's the most qm-dependant weapon

[wise abyss]

Brink elbow model back embark please :(((((((

[hardy dust]

Matter also doesn't require super precise shots against medium and light

If you're not shortening the ttk with qms you can afford to miss quite a few pellets

Its honestly one of the best light v. Light weapons in the game because of that imo

[serene glade]

Another Thursday another nothing burger

[chilly granite]

given that matter is intended to be the longer range shotgun choice, it being beaten in ttk by the long range AR choice for light seems sus

I get yourpoint though

[compact tundra]

I don't think Arn has a better ttk outside maybe all headshots, the matter 2 shots lights

[chilly granite]

really? I just checked and standing still, the arn is slightly worse than the xp, but moving looks the same, and I don't think standing still in cqb is a good move as a light

and even if the dispersion is slightly worse, the arn requires less shots to kill, meaning that while it may be less consistent in cqb, it's more liekly to be lucky

[chilly granite]

matter cycle time is super long, arn bodyshots beats it

I haven't tested it myself and the wiki isn't 100% correct on most things so possibly wrong, but vibes based it feels faster

[compact tundra]

Cycle time? If you mean the delay in-between shot it's not that long, and I don't think body shots with the highest ttk auto on light beats 2 shots from the matter

[chilly granite]

I'll record and let you konw

[compact tundra]

Like don't get the wrong the Arn kills pretty quickly, but the matter is just 2 taps. And the M11 and XP kill quicker than the Arn if I'm correct

[chilly granite]

the arn kills faster with 100% accuracy but most people don't hit 100% accuracy on a dashing matter light in their face

I'll test in a sec to be sure, but I'm pretty certain right now

hitmarker 1 frame 61, 1.033 hitmarker 2 frame 103, 1.7333

.7s (probably .71 as wiki says but measurement error 60fps)

wiki says .71 firerate on matter so testing agrees

arn hitmarker 1 frame 460, 7.683 last white hitmarker frame 500 , 8.349

.66s, again agrees with wiki at .66ttk on a light

@compact tundra

[chilly granite]

for sure I love the matter, I'm just saying I don't think the arn should be in the conversation

at any range where you can't quickmelee the light, the arn can kill you faster assuming they hit their shots

It doesn't happen much but i don't think that should ahppen at all, especially when the matter has harsh falloff too

I think arn would be fine wtih ttk on light at .73 and keeping falloff ttk the same

you can fight back against a db that missed it's first shot but a matter at 5m will beat you and the smgs will too

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1182330547234684989/1459226768211972240/image.png?ex=6969c294&is=69687114&hm=2ee24afb45fa038ed030fa4f45a173177d48825cae4eb094dcde6ed901e69803&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1632&height=817

for context, the difference between arn and xp54 within range on a light is .63 vs .66 all bodyshots

arn is 13 bullets in deep falloff on a light and xp is 19 in deep falloff (possibly 12/18 depending on rounding not gonna test rn)

even the m11 is only .54

54>66 is 120ms, which is a difference easily surmounted by having an advantage of reaction times (being invis, having a callout/prefire)

meanwhile the arn has a massively reduced ttk at range

and because the arn is probably playing long angles away from noisy stuff, it's way more liekly the ARN will hear a flank or invis player, giving them first move advantage instead of the attacker, making the tiny ttk difference irrelevent

13 shots in deep falloff confirmed

[indigo nexus]

if you exclude quick melees, TTK is still not the only factor. Matter has high burst damage. Typically such weapons have notably slower TTKs than others.

[indigo nexus]

equally more likely to be unlucky too, but it's a minute difference.

[chilly granite]

yes, but I'm also making my argument for why the arn is op in cqb with comparisons to autos now 😉

So the arn has 1s ttk on a light in deep falloff

meanwhile the xp has 1.25s ttk in deep falloff

while the arn only has a 30ms disadvantage in close range

and in midrange (32.5m) the arn has .66s vs 1.25s, which is a .6s advantage to the arn

[indigo nexus]

If you're going to be doing that you'll want a visualisation of their integrals rather than a picked selection of ranges

(which shall be provided shortly)

[chilly granite]

I need some good graphing software

I should probably just work out how to set up graphs in excel

but yeah, I don't think that a 30ms disadvantage in cqb is a substantial enough disadvantage to counter all the other advantages of teh ARN, such as the largest ammo capacity on light, and the best ranged dps, beating out the sr84

[indigo nexus]

there we go

23,451 pixels vs 122,203 pixels, roughly

so unless you value short range majorly, then yeah, ARN will have the better general TTK even if we cap it to 50m range

[chilly granite]

and if you value short range that much, then you shuold be using the m11

[indigo nexus]

not really how that works

[chilly granite]

can u see capping ti 32.5?

[chilly granite]

if you could do the m11 too I'd appreciate it, again capped at 32.5

[indigo nexus]

what's the motive?

[chilly granite]

it's end falloff of the xp, and it's relatively easy to avoid super long fights like 40m+

I feel like it's relatively easier for enemies to force fights from 30m

like, standing on top a building to ground floor often ends up being 30m with larger buildings

[indigo nexus]

well for the first one I may as well just cut off the edge, haha (green area is now 24.7k, so XP would probably beat it here)

what I really need to do is set up a range value graphing system, so an 'overall' ttk comparison can be computed

[chilly granite]

I will say that I think a more lucky gun is an advantage, even if it's not real, because human bias will lead people to bias towards the times they get lucky over the times they don't

an advantage in pick rate, not power level

I think that's part of why the arn's hipfire feels better than the xp even though it's slightly worse

also I'm not sure how you're calculating the % difference in hipfire accuracy, becasue ti really don't look like 12%, even standing

is it 12% area?

[indigo nexus]

19,615 vs 123,262

[indigo nexus]

measuring the width of the dispersion size while walking

(people aren't ususally standing still when hipfiring)

[chilly granite]

are you converting that to angle to account for projection distortion?

[indigo nexus]

for calculations involving it, yes, just for displaying it, no

[chilly granite]

probably better to measure on the lowest fov too for more accuracy

huh I'm really surprised it's 12%, I feel like I never win in hipfire with xp but always do with arn

I'm pretty sure 12% should outweight the luckyness bias

[indigo nexus]

XP tends to run out of bullets too quickly for hipfiring in many cases, I think

[unkempt moss]

Ain't no way they did nothing this patch.

[indigo nexus]

the bias there would make a small fraction of a percent of a difference

[chilly granite]

For sure the mag size and reload on the XP are it's biggest problems

Reload time is so awful compared to the m11 and the mag is teeny tiny, especially in falloff

The m11 graph was interesting because it kinda speaks truth to how I was winning way more duels with XP than m11 just yoloing around tdm maps

But you run out of bullets after pretty much every fight and the reload is a month long

Meanwhile the arn is only a lil worse in normal distances and has a giant mag

[brave knoll]

Is it possible that no one is thinking of reworking the goo gun? I think there is a big problem in games with that gadget

[serene glade]

since they don't think of reworking anything or making any sort of changes, it might be safe to assume they arent reworking something that isnt a massive issue yeah

[brave knoll]

If a heavy locks on you, you're basically dead, they should make sure it doesn't block players

[serene glade]

deserved tbh. also you can mantle things and it breaks goo locking because mantling takes prio over the lock. if a heavy locks on you with winch claw you die as well so im not seeing your issue. is goo locking strong, sure. is it gamebreaking and unavoidable, no

[indigo nexus]

this would straight up kill the spec, it would need some major buff for it to work

all of heavy's other specs provide a major boost in combat capability, this one does need to compete

[brave knoll]

The winch is one and you can avoid it and maybe even save yourself if it hits you. The goo gun has too much ammo; if one shot misses, it has 19 more.

[indigo nexus]

it also isn't nearly as powerful as the winch. Winch stuns you and moves you significant distances, without blocking fire from your teammates

[serene glade]

i can see nerfing the speed at which you can shoot individual blobs be a sort of reasonable nerf, then give the m2 a way to cycle it to shoot like goo grenade chunks, allowing you to rotate it or something to be flat on a roof, or just like a normal goo grenade to still be able to reinforce an area. could be a cool spec to support your team with as well. covering a teammate reviving with a goo grenade shot from the goo gun.

would obviously cost more than 1 ammo to shoot like that, but could be cool

[brave knoll]

Reducing speed would already give a minimum reaction time

[serene glade]

not projectile speed

you deserve to get goo locked man idk what to tell you

[brave knoll]

rateo

[muted condor]

Goo lock is a cheese strat that won’t get past sliver without good team play

If you’re in a 1v1 goo locking does basically nothing

[indigo nexus]

helps close distance and stall

[unkempt moss]

Someone summon me?

[unkempt moss]

Its also a good way to escape.

I think we need to know what class and weapon homie plays

So we can give him tips for beating googun.

[serene glade]

dash arn/m11 is my guess

[chilly granite]

anyway back to the arn

the arn already has the advantage of a giant mag and barely slower reload

so I don't think it's fair that the ttk diff is so small, that it catches up to the xp54 at only 23? meters

@indigo nexus are you accounting for the game rounding down btw?

[indigo nexus]

"game rounding down"?

[chilly granite]

when I tested falloff shots to kill, it was the round down damage number, not the true number

[indigo nexus]

I did not think that was a thing, but I should test now

[chilly granite]

to be fair it might be accurate rounding

[indigo nexus]

damage from non-bullet sources doesn't round

[chilly granite]

since the arn is 12.24 and the xp is 8.3

but they took 1 extra bullet to kill compared to the non rounded number

I might've done the math a lil wrong I wasn't being exceptionally thorough

but a heavy should take 29 bullets to kill with no rounding and will take 30 I think with arn at deep falloff

ah I retested and it's 29 bullets, so it isn't rounding, I think i fumbled my math earlier

ugh wait not

the m11 seems to be rounding

no it isn't

my brain accidentally rounded the number I was expecting from 42.06 (43) to 42

[unkempt moss]

Are you thinking its rounding from the fall off?

[chilly granite]

I thought it was but I was wrong, I just mis-remerbered the shots to kill if it wasn't rounded as being lower than it was

bullet damage is unrounded

[unkempt moss]

We finally get a guy in here talking about GooGun and a bunch plebs run him off.

[chilly granite]

goo gun op nerf googun (jk)

goo gun is probably op but I don't care as long as the goo gods stay out of my tdm lobbies

even if it is op, it's less op than the rest of heavies' specs anyway

[unkempt moss]

It definitely is the strongest of the heavy specs. Possibly in the game.

I'm surprised you dont see it in tdm

[chilly granite]

anyone smart enough to use goo gun effectively is too smart to play tdm

[stoic garden]

i think it could be the strongest as it has an infinitely high skill ceiling, but i dont think anyone is capable of reaching that

[unkempt moss]

I strive to reach the peak every day. They call me Goouki

[stoic garden]

until i see a person goo locking 2 people constantly at once from 30 meters while moving it wont be better than mesh 😋

[smoky crag]

never had a problem with goo

[chilly granite]

winch isn't op becusae of the high skill ceiling, it's op because the skillfloor is in the basement, so even terrible players can use it to get free kills lol

[unkempt moss]

You wouldn't goolock like that. Its a different technique for making crosses and stuff

[chilly granite]

same problem as stun gun

they should've reworked stun gun into stun baton as a melee gadget for heavy

that's the worst take I've ever had

[unkempt moss]

Its close

[thick holly]

I'm trying to figure out if that would be a good or bad idea lol

[chilly granite]

even if it's a good idea, it's a bad idea by virtue of eww factor

[unkempt moss]

Worst Bow User take is that heavy is anything but the best part of the game

[stoic garden]

heavy is king

[serene glade]

i love how nullifier is even better than stun gun, but lights still want stun gun back

[thick holly]

It's cuz they can't get free kill anymore :(

[chilly granite]

I said that heavy is best part of the game and it's skill issue for me

[serene glade]

there should be an option to just have the game play for them tbh

[thick holly]

Honestly the utility is way better than just getting an easy kill

[stoic garden]

until my friend steals 50% of my kills 🔥

[unkempt moss]

Youve said its boring before

[thick holly]

The other day I had a light nullify me while I was body blocking, allowing them to stop the steal very easily

[chilly granite]

it's boring because it depends on skills I am weak in

[unkempt moss]

Like what?

[chilly granite]

light depends on dodge and aim

heavy depends on utility usage more than anything else

I was LEM in csgo buying no nades and playing deagle only headshot only

[thick holly]

Honestly ngl it's fun seeing how people react to riot shield body blocking, some people have been pretty creative

[chilly granite]

can't be shot with a flash/smoke/nade in hand if you don't buy them 🙂

[serene glade]

i got nullified a little too early the other day and it sort of helped me because it allowed to me run through my teammate who was stealing in a narrow door and reappear in front of them to body block. he probably went to game feedback after that and asked for stun gun back

[thick holly]

Lol

[unkempt moss]

You say this as light has the easiest guns in the game to aim with.

[muted condor]

I love when the enemy nullifies me while I’m one hp

[stoic garden]

too bad i only like lh1 😔

[chilly granite]

I mean, I win fights wiht deagles on heavy, the issue is that I'm not using my rpg or dome shield so i lose matches

[muted condor]

Just lets me walk away and find a team mate

[serene glade]

iirc you can goo lock nullified players still so you can work with a heavy to goo lock them and bring back the feeling of a stun gun

[muted condor]

Don’t really NEED ether with how many good gadgets heavy has

[stoic garden]

who else here loves lewis gun

[chilly granite]

tdm you need dome shield at least, or maybehealing emitter, but it's really hard to regen up after a fight in tdm on heavy

[compact tundra]

Lewis gun is goated, it's one of the few automatics I find genuinely fun

[serene glade]

its got a top 5 skin with the roller coaster so id say yeah

[muted condor]

Lock bolt, c4, grav cube, barricade, and emitter are all goated

RPG kinda over rated imo

[chilly granite]

rpg not overrated for tdm, maybe for cashout

[serene glade]

lights dont like it because it confirms kills when the breakpoints of guns normally save them

[unkempt moss]

Heavy has the funnest kit in the game. The most engaging weapons. If heavy is OP its mainly in their variety.

[chilly granite]

lewis gun is fun

[stoic garden]

it has completely replaced m60 for me, the long range performance is just so much better, the recoil is also very clean with no bullshit

[chilly granite]

tbh the regen time is too long on heavy, espeically consdierng how hard it is to break line of sight to actaulyl get regen timer to start ticking

[young pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/social-credit-credit-social-уважение-плюс-уважение-gif-1626328442317885176

[stoic garden]

it's overrated if you dont have high ground or jump pads to bombard enemies from

[cerulean furnace]

Also been thinking that while Heavy is genuinely OP, it's not in the way that gets people really mad about it. Hell I respect them, they're really fun and have vastly different options to play how they want

[stoic garden]

it determines fights almost before they even start if you get a good hit

[compact tundra]

I find it incredibly useful on flamethrower, great opening or finishing tool and good for dislodging roof campers plus dropping boxes to me if they are camping sightlines above me

[muted condor]

If I’m hitting a jump bad I’m going to hit them with C&S for maximum heavy game play

[serene glade]

heavy is "op" because other classes support gadgets sustain them insanely efficiently

[stoic garden]

sorry i play mesh to stall and save my friends 😢

[cerulean furnace]

Yknowwhat that's also incredibly fair and true

[unkempt moss]

I really think the mindset of heavies is also better than the others. Being the slowest biggest target kind of changes how you engage with scenarios differently.

[stoic garden]

the essential rpg game trio

[cerulean furnace]

Oh definitely. I play them sometimes and I def feel like my gamesense is much better as well as my positioning once I get used to Heavy

[chilly granite]

yeah you gotta be more mindful of position when you're the size of mars

I really don't think the speed diff betweeen med and heavy is big enouhg to make that much diff

[muted condor]

I love keeping up with the enemy mediums while running mini gun and scaring tf out of them

[cerulean furnace]

They also use their gadgets way more than others I feel like

[stoic garden]

yea for some reason people prefer targeting my huge blue fat figure than my light picking them off from another angle ❤️

[serene glade]

the speed difference is usually a skill issue on medium and lights parts. i can consistently beat mediums and sometimes even lights to cashouts on my team because im just more efficient with my movement

[unkempt moss]

Play hammer and it'll give you appreciation of others speed for sure. I know it does for me at least

[serene glade]

or routing issue on their end

[muted condor]

That’s because heavies are have to be efficient with movement so they are used to doing it consistently

[stoic garden]

after i started optimizing my movement i never really fail to keep up with my team in most circumstances 🔥

[unkempt moss]

God we're just so much better than everyone else. Its crazy.

[muted condor]

It’s actually made playing light hard for me because I end up being to efficient with my movement and get way to far from my team

[chilly granite]

it's only about 5% sprint speed diff running in a straight line

I think it deservse to be slightly bigger at least

walk speed is a bigger diff althoguh i dont know how much

[cerulean furnace]

How much are movement Mediums that help their team appreciated? I myself am one

[serene glade]

extremely

[stoic garden]

from sliding at the edge of sledges for the slighest speed boost to climb canceling to zipline jumping, it's a lot of fun to optimize your movement as heavy and find ways to get into homes of strangers, rob them and kill them

[chilly granite]

Also I think the heavy gains more speedboost from sloped surfaces

[unkempt moss]

Good mediums are the jelly to heavies peanut butter.

[chilly granite]

when I bhop on peace center I go fucking miles on heavy it's really fun

[cerulean furnace]

[serene glade]

should have eaten the 2nd big mac then chud

[muted condor]

Mediums who defib you when you’re running mini gun on the other hand

[stoic garden]

my medium isnt really that crazy and he also cant vc so i never know when he putting ziplines or jump pads 😢

[muted condor]

Worthless troglodytes

[chilly granite]

alright I'm gonna try sledge in tdm with dome frag flash

[serene glade]

i like getting revived

[chilly granite]

also I litearlly never use spec

[stoic garden]

i always put goo in front of fellas i defib so they dont just get shot and die if im the medium

[cerulean furnace]

Would appreciate it if they atleast give u cover or defib u in a safe spacd

[unkempt moss]

I actually prefer my mediums to not run defib. I feel like if we're in a spot where we need to defib, outside of turning an emergency 1v1, we need to just reset.

[cerulean furnace]

Duuuuude we are gonna get along so well

[muted condor]

I prefer when my medium takes goo, jump/zip, and glitch trap

[stoic garden]

im fine with being defibbed since i trust my aim with lewis gun enough to make a difference

[serene glade]

defib is honestly fine in the 1v1v1v1 setting i think, its the final round where its value is astronomical

[muted condor]

Randoms never take glitch trap despite it being amazing

[unkempt moss]

Problem with defib is its super busted if someone thinks for 3 frames, but terrible if they dont.

[stoic garden]

only mediums who have experienced a 8 light quick cash game realize how good it is

[serene glade]

does glitch trap stop charge and slam mid charge or nah

[unkempt moss]

I'd trade a kidney to get glitch trap on heavy.

[stoic garden]

i personally got into a quick cash game where everyone including me was light, and everyone was either playing lh1 or 93r pre nerf 😱

[stoic garden]

lowkey i prefer motion sensor to wallbang with sledge

[unkempt moss]

The area denial specialist doesn't have the #1 area denial tool. Crazy.

[stoic garden]

iirc it does

[chilly granite]

man sledge sucks if you don't use dome effectively

[unkempt moss]

GooGun...

[stoic garden]

you forgot the goo gun

[chilly granite]

don't even try it, I can't use that crap

[serene glade]

then you will suffer

[chilly granite]

the power of the goo gun exceeeds my body

[thick holly]

I like defib in my medium loadout. Since I'm more support focused I'm not bringing as much damage

[stoic garden]

it's not that hard doing basic goo locking, but it's worth learning the rest of what goo gun can do to actually get value of it

[unkempt moss]

Bow User, you dont even need goolocking. It's just very good.

[chilly granite]

I'm bad at using charge and slam do you even think I can use goo gun to any effect?

[unkempt moss]

You can get insane value out of the myriad of tech the googun has.

[serene glade]

give me back my m1 quick melee on lights

[stoic garden]

learn minigun googun and you will be a different man

[thick holly]

I like using anti-grav cube and goo gun. I know it's a fairly standard goo gun thing but it's so fun

[unkempt moss]

Yes. Because its a good defensive spec too. You dont need to use it offensively at all to get value.

[thick holly]

Oh yeah, get any use of that tech me and unjust found?

[serene glade]

he killed himself with it

[unkempt moss]

I've found opportunity twice. Once it worked, second time I killed myself.

[thick holly]

Lol

[unkempt moss]

I was doing it on the fly.

[thick holly]

I've used it to stall an entire team in fortune stadium once

[unkempt moss]

It was on fortune that I did it.

[thick holly]

Once I got the main bit of goo on it, I just kept shooting it at the major jump pad, took them like 10 seconds before they realized they should take the stairs

[muted condor]

Fuck defib

[serene glade]

^this but replace defib with embark

[chilly granite]

playing sledge is not convincing me heavy is too slow

[unkempt moss]

It makes me appreciate the walk speed on dagger

[chilly granite]

it is convicng me that dash cd is way too low

[muted condor]

Bwawawawaw

[chilly granite]

but that's a take I already held

[muted condor]

Embark, draw and quarter this man

[chilly granite]

dash cd is too low on so many levels, grapple is 8 0 charges and dash is 6.5 with 3 charges?

that's not remotely sane

if you dump 3 charges you should suffer no dash for at least 20s

[muted condor]

Oh, my bad I misunderstood

I thought you wanted dash to come back faster. We agree on this 🤝

[serene glade]

dash shouldnt be able to travel vertically as well

[muted condor]

^^^

[chilly granite]

i mean, i think gateway should be deleted, in which case, dash should have the same small amount of vert gain it has now imho

[muted condor]

Grapple should be your vertical option and dash is only horizontal

[chilly granite]

gateway is the vertical option for dash users more so than dash itself

[serene glade]

grapple isnt even bad and neither is cloak. if you wanna talk about "cannibalizing"

[muted condor]

Iv never played with a light that actually used gate properly

[chilly granite]

yeah grapple and cloak and fine tbh, but theyre just worse than dash and you can have grapple and cloak via gateway and invis bobmb

the one thing I think grapple should get is double jump so that you can better evade frags and such while grapple is cd

but I don't even know if that's needed if dash is properly nerfed

dash should have 15 or 20s cd per charge

[serene glade]

one press of the space bar i swear makes grenades already do half damage

[chilly granite]

i wish it did

[muted condor]

Part of the reason grenade launchers suck

[chilly granite]

it's not too bad vs cl/mgl but vs frag and rpg it sucks

[serene glade]

i would like to see them play around with the mgl and see what 90 damage is like on it for 2-3-4 shotting the classes respectively, especially with the amount of healing in the game. but yet again we get another thursday where nothing happens ever

[muted condor]

Winch, dash, and defibs are the three horse men of fucking up class balance

[unkempt moss]

Its a magical experience.

Honestly, if you play heavy and switch to light with gateway you have a much better understanding of how to use it in team play.

Because you see the shitty gateway plays from the outside

[muted condor]

Heavies being better at playing light than light players is a consistent trend Iv started to notice

[compact tundra]

And I love all of them, tho I think they could be balanced more

Defib's are fine as is, only thing I'd change is being defibed takes half of your defib's charge, so chaining is worse

Dash could use a cool down nerf and I don't think I hate the horizontal only idea, I cant believe I'm going to say this, but give dash a lock of like 30° up or down, similar to aim lock

Winch I think is a bit more of a problem but I don't want it changed too much cause it's so fun both to use and watch
I'd just use my rotation rework but I've tweaked it a bit.

You now hold the button to spin the winch one handed, very rotation gives you +5m winch distance to a max of 15. If you just press the button it automatically winches at 5m.

The 5m winch doesn't need a spin and is instantaneous

Each spin takes .3 seconds

So no spin equals 5m
1 spin (.3 sec) equals 10m
2 spins (.6 sec) equals 15m

I don't know if this would nerf or buff it we'd have to play test to see but .6 seconds is significant in a fight

[unkempt moss]

Bringing a skill set to light that they dont usually have.

[compact tundra]

I think It's cause heavies are used to team play. Cause heavy requires team play while lights design doesn't really push people to play with their team, so light mains have to learn team play while heavies are forced into it

[muted condor]

It’s just because heavy players are the goats

[unkempt moss]

Do you think it was a design choice by embark to make light a better support class than medium while calling medium the support class?

[chilly granite]

no they backed themselves into a corner becuase they gave medium better guns than light at release and then refused to nerf them

[muted condor]

Guh

[chilly granite]

I played heavy and I made two enemies swap from medium/light to heavy lmao

heavy is the funnest class on peace center facing towers for sure, bhopping down the hill at 200mph is so fun

[compact tundra]

I solidly agree, tho it's not a peace center exclusive

[chilly granite]

For clarification on my previous comment, light can't win a dps race against medium

[chilly granite]

you can't really od it on the tdm maps on kyoto

real kyoto yes, but the tdm maps are poorly laid out for it

[compact tundra]

Fair, I've been using Kyoto in private matches recently for cash out and powershift sniper duals and it's really fun. I'm starting to think Kyoto was a good map addition cause I think it's fair that the long range weapons get at least 1 map to thrive on

We've been treating it like those sniper games where you wait and scoop out your opponent and it's really fun

[chilly granite]

Anyway. since mediums dps is so good, and medium can outrange light to some extent, it's often better for medium to be a dps player rather than focusing on support

rather light is better for people who don't aim quite as well since dash is win duel button

[compact tundra]

Light is more positioning focused, medium wins in straight duals but light isn't meant to fight fair duals

[chilly granite]

and medium was given a lot of set and forget support gadgets, which are better for a dps playstyle since if yu die, your team still gains value

meanwhile light's gadgets are mostly active use so depends on survival

again not taking fair fights is a supportive playstyle, not a dps playstyle

[compact tundra]

Well I mean medium isn't really DPS either, that's mostly heavies role, medium has great burst damage and like you said set and forget support

[chilly granite]

heavy and light should both be dps to some extent

but medium is the best class for aimers

you have the least jobs to do other than hit shots

[serene glade]

medium has a fast firing weapon with accurate hipfire that does 148 damage and they wanna tell me its not one of the best weapons on medium. the gall of some people

[chilly granite]

hehehe

[compact tundra]

I think that's actually heavy, heavy is just fighting. Dome is for the fight, RPG is for the fight, lockbolt if for the fight, winch is for the fight, C&S is for the fight, Goo Gun is mostly for the fight. Really mesh, heal emitter, anti grav, and C4 are the only things in the meta or meta adjacent that aren't really explicitly for the fight

[serene glade]

anti grav hard counters defib so it could also be looked at for the fight

[chilly granite]

but that's all harder to use efficiently than gun

medium is aimer bait is my point

[compact tundra]

Oh I use anti grav for the fight, but most use it as a stall and positioning tool. My newest sledge loadout has an aggressive ass anti-grav

[chilly granite]

like, the revolver and cb are boht aimer bait wapons

[serene glade]

i would use it way more if i didnt decide on using mgl this season. i do have it in the reserves for being able to play on moving platforms to knock the cashout off

[chilly granite]

heavies limited range on most waepons mean that heavy isn't aimer bait

like, aimer bait being someone who just wants to facecheck people and get kills

doesn't want to thinkabout gadgets

most people assume it's light but it really isn't because light is so gadget dependant and important for team

[compact tundra]

I use it mostly with minigun and lewis gun for duck hunting. But with sledge it's the old mile high pounding tool

[compact tundra]

What spec do you use?

[chilly granite]

like a support player is someone who wants to think careful about where they are, think about flanks, positioning, gadget useage

thats all more conducive to heavy or light than medium

[serene glade]

charge and slam. you cant play with anything else on mgl without it becoming a liability

[compact tundra]

That's fair, then anti-grav will work for you. Drop the box and camp above it, when they draw near plop your antigrav on you so the box doesn't float, when they steal hit them with the ground and pound

[chilly granite]

btw this is a mostly high elo concept, newer players will just assume light is the aimer class and won't even try/realize that it's actually medium

[compact tundra]

That's what I use it on this sledge for and it works wonders

[serene glade]

yeah i really like the combo of grav and slam, i replace my goo grenade in my loadout with the antigrav so its nice being able to cutoff some entrypoints while moving and slam through if need be as well

does kinda suck tho because i think goo grenade is the best gadget for mgl

but its my suffering for playing on moving platforms with mgl so you gotta make tradeoffs i guess

[compact tundra]

You could try my gadget loadout , it has a weird amount of synergy

[serene glade]

i did something similar like your loadout that when there was an excess of lights in the lobby. but ive come to learn frag and mgl comboed together makes it insanely consistent so thats a tough drop rn for me. i could lose pyro mine for something tbh, im not getting as much from it as i think

[compact tundra]

Id swap the lockbolt for frag then, the lockbolt isn't as useful on mgl as it is on sledge

[serene glade]

ill try it out later and see how it goes

[compact tundra]

I'm actually gonna try it out later too, to see if I can find some good combos or clips to show off

[serene glade]

at a round start, for some reason most teams love to just mindlessly run in and tap the box so you can almost always stack a nade and mgl on the box and just one tap a light or kill a medium

[chilly granite]

but yeah heavy and medium getting mines instead of light is a crazy take

[unkempt moss]

Not really.

[chilly granite]

it makes far, far more senes for the sniper to have access to mines
or for the flanker to have access to mines

light having glitch trap would also make more sense than medium because light can get in position to drop it in a fight, and it synergizes with grapple as a defensive tool against pushes from dash lights

[wild zenith]

light with gas mines would be fun

[chilly granite]

glitch nade makes way more sense on medium

[stoic garden]

glitch trap:

[compact tundra]

Uhm no, glitch nade makes a lot of since on light to balance out their low health and give them more resources to even out fights, and mines would suck on light, they could keep dashing and throwing them down and would make setup time for cash boxes trivially quick

[chilly granite]

glitch nade makes a lot of since on light to balance out their low health and give them more resources to even out fights

yes in the current meta, I'm not assuming that weapon and gadget balance would be identical to today in a world where medium and light are balanced with light having mines and meidum having glitch nade

this is not a change that could be made right now without absolutely breaking the game

[indigo nexus]

Light may be lowkirkepstienuinely reliant on the gadget, but I’m not sure what a good way to mitigate that would be

[chilly granite]

I mean, giving it to medium and giving light +25hp

[indigo nexus]

HP changes would require a total rebalance of much of the game

[compact tundra]

That changes the entire game to fix one gadget

[chilly granite]

moving glitch to medium would also require a total rebalance of much of the game

fixing glitch also requires a total reblanace of much of the game

[compact tundra]

So we don't, I think it's fine as is. Glitch is meta but not a requirement

[wild zenith]

would adding more pellets to m26 matter (and nerfing damage per pellet to keep the damage the same) make the gun more consistent, or would it increase strain on the server and cause more noregs?

[indigo nexus]

I don’t think either of those would be to nearly the same extent

[serene glade]

we are rebalancing the game finally!!??

[chilly granite]

neither

more pellets would make it less consistent because dps becomes more range dependant and less aim dependant

it wouldn't affect anything on serer processng side, hitscan is basically free

[chilly granite]

tbh I think if you nerf dash as it should be, then it would require a similar scale rebalance

[wild zenith]

the pellets would be added inside the outer ring

i dont think that would make it worse at range

[compact tundra]

Just nerfing the cool down wouldn't, unless we're talking an entire charge nerf which would be overkill to me

[chilly granite]

don't care

if you think the m26 has hitreg issues either you have connection issues or you have aim issue

higher damage single pellets is better for consistentcy becauseyou can manipulate your aim and their hitbox

more pellets means that their specific hitbox/animation shape will affect damage output more

[chilly granite]

I think cd should be 20s

which would probably require a very significant rebalnace ofa lot of wepaons

[compact tundra]

That would be an insanely hurtful nerf. Like that's overkill to me. Why not just make it 10 max and let it settle before nuking the spec that keeps light in the meta rn, you're talking potentially complete removing light from the meta since we don't know how light fares with a nerfed dash, much less a nuked one

[wild zenith]

isnt that exactly what makes shotguns interesting?

imo u shouldnt be able to aim it the same as you would a bolt action or revolver

[indigo nexus]

I don’t think it needs nerfing. Small buffs to invis / grapple, problem solved

[serene glade]

i really just think dash needs its verticality removed

[chilly granite]

you don't?

this will hit all center pellets for a 2 shot kill btw

if you made the center pellet damage a more even circle some would miss around the shoulders and it wouldn't be a two shot kill

[serene glade]

then see where we are at

[chilly granite]

Small buff to invis maybe, but grapple needs a lot to be good imho

[indigo nexus]

I don’t think so myself, in a non meta sense

[chilly granite]

but I don't really care that much abut that, my main contetion is that dash has almost no downtime

if you use it with 1s spacing, all three charges, you only have 4.5s downtime

[indigo nexus]

If the fight ended at the fourth dash then yes

In general, no

[chilly granite]

even if you dump all 3+1 dashes you only have 19.5s? cd

like, it takes seriously trash dash usage to run out of charges

and dash doesn't break aim to gain movement, where grapple does, so dash will always be meta over grapple even with 1 charge at 8s cd

[indigo nexus]

I think that’s a bit far

[chilly granite]

if gateway is unchanged I don't think so

[indigo nexus]

dash is not some kind of automatic fight winner, especially in high elo, such that all the utility from grapple’s movement would be outweighed by a single dash

[chilly granite]

fair take

in tdm the dash would be meta over grapple with 1 charge at 8s

even against high skilled players, the utility of grapple is outweighed by fight winning power

[indigo nexus]

Well, in TDM I’m not even sure how you’d use grapple well

[chilly granite]

but even so, I think there will still be people who prefer a 1 charge dash and gateway to grapple

in cashout

it's a huge advantage for winning fights evne against extremly skilled players

and I think dash should be nerfed because it 100% negatively affects the number of casual players in the game

like I've seen so many new players playing heavy being absolutely bullied by dash lights wiht 0 way to respond lol

grapple players in tdm are usually sr84 or doublebarrled users

grapple gives more speed for gap close with db and better kite/positioning for sr84

and also gap close for quickmelee on sr84 bodyshots if you're really bloodthirsty

[chilly granite]

Like, I really think you're underestimating dash, I think dash is a big part of why model and now cb are so popular

the numbers on cb and model were honestly never that crazy? compared to the autos

maybe themodel, but certain the cb's numbers are way less than it'spopularity would imply

landing two hitscan flicks on a dash light is vastly easier than akm beaming the same dash light

[indigo nexus]

Against lights, I would definitely disagree

[chilly granite]

fcar with no headshots is still 80ms faster than cb, with headshots it's half the ime

the problem is that you don't know when dash is coming so against an auto gun it's a free +150ms ttk

you can't preaim the dash, you can't do anything, you just have to react when you see it, and even with perfect aim after your reaction, it's still gonna throw you off

whereas with the cb/model, you only need to flick hit twice, and you can flickshot them while thy're landing from dash animation

and +150ms is assuming very, very, very good reaction times

[indigo nexus]

Well, it is meta. I just don't think it could be by a lot, since it has been beaten by a moderately better invis before, and since grapple seems to do well.

[slow linden]

The act of hitting an injured dash light in the skull with a bfr titan or ks23 is what I like to call the yogurt effect

[chilly granite]

invis is a free 150ms advantage that even works against the cb/model

grapple can be a free 150ms if you're in an adequately stealthy position

it can be more or less depending on how advantageous the position is (arn vs p90 40m away, for example)

but if invis is effective, then it's a free 150ms ttk

but dash with 3 charges can be free 450ms ttk

again, that's asuming crazy reaction times and perfect aim

if you have bad reactoin times, a laggy montior, and weak aim, it can be a second of ttk

like, 250ms reacton times, 50ms of display lag (playing on a tv on ps5), and controller aim lol, that's 300ms with perfect aim, per dash

dash is just as toxic as invis but people say skill issue because they don't actually think about it

and thats why light feels crazy squishy when you play grapple, because grapple gives no free ttk. You have to earn the ttk via positioning, and you can do that with dash or invis and just have dash or invis for free ttk too

that's also why grapple DB works, becausse it kills enemies fast enough that it can mitigate the ttk difference, adn it'll feel horrible if the enemy has a skilled heavy anyway

a player of equal rs using grapple instead of dash is more skilled

they win fights off positioning advantage rather than bullshit cannon that is dash

and that is a greater reflection of skill

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/guy-arguing-guy-talking-to-wall-talking-brick-wall-gif-18667615

[boreal garden]

Thoughts on dash having longer cooldown if you use all 3? Otherwise the cooldown is the same as long as you have one.

[sudden pewter]

I’m game, dash doesn’t have enough downsides. But I’d like to see fixes in how some dashes don’t do anything occasionally when used midair. Not sure if it’s a bug, conditional, or it’s something I am doing, but it’s frustrating when it happens

[compact tundra]

Hey so as a game design theory I've always wondered about how to make a long ranged sniper fun to fight

So the problem is
FPS Game design 101

• A gun must be fun to use

FPS game design 201

• A gun must be fun to fight

Snipers have always failed that second rule. But I may have come up with a concept that fixes that

I think I might have just figured out how to make a traditional long ranged sniper playstyle work in a shooter without being completely ass to fight for all the normal weapons. A spotting system

I'll use the finals as a reference game and Kyoto as a reference map

When you unlock the long ranged sniper (which would be a distinct weapon from the more normal playstyle quick scope sniper) it comes with a ghillie suit for each map to camouflage yourself with. The sniper does high damage per shot and even higher damage per headshot (for the finals current damage numbers are fine). The sniper is encouraged to hide at long distances and shoot at enemies obviously. When a sniper is pinged their weapon is disabled for 25 seconds. So now counter play isn't hunting the rat down, it's sniping them. So you're not necessarily fighting them as much as you are trying to spot them and keep track of them. This makes sniper more fun to fight since it's a game of where's Waldo and discourages getting too close and encouraged changing up positions. Also when spotted the sniper is discouraged from staying in the same spot since they'll easily be spotted there again. This makes the sniper still fun to play but also makes counterplay bro require hunting them down or giving them an advantage while chasing them.

While the sniper is disabled the sniper pulls out a pistol to use for self defenece so there not completely defenceless.

Also the ghillie suit is auto equipped over top of your character and the sniper has matching camo, the camo used is based on the map your playing

What do you think?

[chilly granite]

the intangible advantage of invis, over dash's 3 dash of 450ms surivivablilty, is that it denies the enmy first move advantage always

if invis is effective, you can ALWAYS retain your 150ms advantage, where dash reuqires you to press the button, which means you can be oneshot before that

and the meta where invis was best was the same as nukes, at least for some of it right? so big advantage to retain the first move advatnage where even a dashlight can get oneshot from range

[unkempt moss]

Is the problem with dash that it just facilitates the easiest playstyle with light? Or the most efficient? Because invis doesnt feel weak when I use it. Grapple works as intended.

[sudden pewter]

Grapple does its job splendidly and doesn’t need any buffs. Dash is just so strong in any given situation there’s little reason to choose grapple over it. Invis definitely needs work, I’d like to see changes so your choice of cosmetics don’t alter its efficacy

[chilly granite]

the number 1 problem with dash is how game ruining it is for weaker players

there is almost no counterplay if you aim/reaction times aren't above a certain level

[muted condor]

They need to add something negative to running dash

[sudden pewter]

Dashing into walls deals damage 🙂

[chilly granite]

that would just be a buff for controller and nerf for mnk

[sudden pewter]

Like a bug hitting a windshield, splat

[unkempt moss]

I find issues with the foundation of it tbh. I dont really think any gun is fun to fight. If you want to say it should be fair, thats okay.

But ive gotten in to disagreements with people here before saying that my enemy's enjoyment or engagement should come before my own.

I also think me enjoying using the gun works both ways. If all guns are fun, and fair, then thats true for my enemies. So that solves both sides.

[muted condor]

Every time you dash without any time between the dashes it increases the recharge time

[sudden pewter]

Tbh I feel sniper (like dagger) is flawed on the design level considering how this game is played

[chilly granite]

basically they were tryna be a tf2 clone but then game design drifted too far and they forgot to delete the weapons they tried out

I feel like that applies more for dagger than sniper, but yes

[unkempt moss]

I agree. I also think long range weapons in general are kind of antithetical to the finals. LH1/Pike are about as long as it should get.

[chilly granite]

huge agree

[sudden pewter]

Snipers already don’t really mesh with most arenas, and while having a map dependent niche weapon is fine on paper, contesting it at ranges where it’s preferable to other poke options isn’t fun.

[muted condor]

Deagles are the best version of a long range weapon for this game

[compact tundra]

I think it should be considered in the order stated.

Fun to use
Then
Fun to fight

But I think the problem is people don't realize when a weapon is fun to fight. Like dodging model or close ranged repeater shots is fun and rewarding. And over a gun you actually get to engage against is fun to fight. You don't engage with a sniper, they pester you until you hunt them down. Again I am distinguishing a quick scope sniper from a distance sniper

[sudden pewter]

It’s super OP on powershift due to the gargantuan sightlines to the objective, but anywhere else it’s less than effective sans treating it like a shotgun and praying for an OHK headshot and at that point why the fuck is it a sniper?

[chilly granite]

I think the sniper as it is is fine though, it isn't super effective at long range poke now it starts to be a projectile, and instead its generally used as a cqb slug shotgun

[unkempt moss]

Thats why its not fine.

[compact tundra]

So you think my idea would help?

[chilly granite]

I think it's balanced fine as a cqb slug shotgun though

could do with a little less spread but I think the risk reward of headshots is intersting

[compact tundra]

Specifically with the fun part

[chilly granite]

is the snipershotgun a weapon you dislike playing against

[unkempt moss]

You said 201, like the more advanced and important class. So I assumed you were prioritizing it more.

[sudden pewter]

I think the sniper needs to be significantly weaker in CQC, if someone gets the jump on a sniper they should be rewarded with a kill, not get OHK’d with a hipfire. (Specifically Light v Light in this instance)

But the Sniper should also mainly be a long range weapon, but poke options are easier to use and more viable at general combat ranges

But then, why would it exist? Just a shit idea from an era when Embark was experimenting. A holdover from a different time. Like the dagger!

[unkempt moss]

Do not be mean to my dagger.

[chilly granite]

I think the game is fine with a shotgunsniper and no snipersniper

[unkempt moss]

It's not. That's just objectively incorrect.

[sudden pewter]

Also fuck no. Light doesn’t need free camo

[serene glade]

Make dagger left click install a tracking dart on enemies

[sudden pewter]

Aktshually ☝️ 🤓
It should deal a Poison DoT so even when a Light fumbles the bag and escapes for free with dash + goo they still get rewarded

[compact tundra]

No I said 201 cause a lot of developers don't think about fun to fight

[serene glade]

We should make the back stab 270°

Did I cook chat

[unkempt moss]

Catter will get mad but fun/powerful weapons will always be better for the user experience. You can balance them but the goal should always making things as powerful as possible while making the most powerful thing difficult to access.

An example, the V9S was very powerful for a couple weeks, but it wasn't hard to access. You could do it anywhere on the map basically. The V9S can be powerful, it just needs to have a set of parameters it can work well in.

[serene glade]

Embark banning the word fun now

[chilly granite]

but yeah, dash is excessively good against bad players, and the gun balance being based around a world where 90% of lights use dash means that the light guns are underpowered for other specs, especailly when it's average skill level (like, their stats will reflect a world where people are less good at hittng a dash light than in pro matches), and dash has effectively no cooldown, its very, very, very hard to actaully catch a dashlight with no cooldown

And dash having no cooldown makes light seem faster than the character actually is too, so heavy is too fast against a non-dash light

[unkempt moss]

I think left click should lose damage but give me bloodhound style tracking if they try to run.

[chilly granite]

like it's very likely that you will find a grapple light with grapple on CD, but that's not true with dash

[sudden pewter]

It should steal blood and store it in a syringe the Light can inject themselves with to gain the HIV buff

[chilly granite]

and in a lot of locations grapple is useless, even if the CD is available, where that's not true for dash

[unkempt moss]

They already have that from a different injection...

[sudden pewter]

Fuck off holy shit

Literally 1984

[compact tundra]

This was more a game neutral idea to make snipers more fun to fight. And with this the ghillie suit is kind of warranted since pinging the enemy disables their sniper

[chilly granite]

Also, people assume that all the pro lights are using controller because of aim assist but personally I think it's because oyu have 360degrees of dash, which allow you to dash behind cover, dash forward to close distance without being too easy to hit and such

[sudden pewter]

That would not be fun for the Sniper

[serene glade]

I don't clean my tracking dart needles, it should apply a damage over time until they succumb to their injuries surrounded by their family in a hospital bed

[unkempt moss]

I made the sniper fix already. Embark just needs to implement it.

[sudden pewter]

Same! ||Removal||

[serene glade]

They are on vacation man, they ain't coming back

[sudden pewter]

Swedes are always on vacation, damn them and their healthy work/life balance

[unkempt moss]

They probably have affordable housing as well.

Would losing the ability to critical hit outside of max range be good or bad for the game?

[chilly granite]

amazing

[unkempt moss]

1's in the chat if you think good.

[chilly granite]

a lot of weapons can't fight back against easier recoil weapons with shorter range becaues of headshots

[sudden pewter]

Maybe the real Embark were the god awful fucking stupid balance decisions they’ve made along the way.

[chilly granite]

(shak vs arn)

[serene glade]

What balance decisions, it's been like 3 seasons since we've had anything

[chilly granite]

to be fair that wouldn't be true for arn

I just want that shit deleted

[shell sonnet]

i feel like its kind of the opposite

a person can only have so much fun, but it can negatively impact so many more people on the other end

case and point: nukes
pretty fun to 1-shot half a team i guess
and everyone else?

[chilly granite]

shak vs v9s is proably the best example

[unkempt moss]

Is it fun or just easy?

[chilly granite]

case in point: dash

[sudden pewter]

I knew you were a few neurons short of a homunculus but I need you to know I feel genuine pity and I haven’t felt anything in years.

[chilly granite]

you've never been donk donk'd by a v9s at 40 meters when you have a shak?

it's happened to me a couple times but to be fair they were probably cheating
not as a heavy but as a light

[sudden pewter]

Fun doesn’t equate to balanced. Nukes are certainly unique and add to the chaos of the game, but walking into a Heavy and being turned into an Ash Baby is definitely not good for the game from a balanced view

[unkempt moss]

Because I wouldn't really say its engaging to just nuke a team. Maybe a couple times but it would lose its fun very quickly because it lacks depth.

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/vesuvius-baby-baby-ash-gif-2339947883921805569

[shell sonnet]

ofc things should still be fun
but imo, as long as it can compete with the other weapons, it should end up being at least decently fun
its just different flavors of lead

ofc qol still contributes

and if it comes down to it, small buffs that dont impact enemies directly can make the difference it needs

[unkempt moss]

Also, we've been following the no fun crew for 9 seasons now. When will we just agree they are wrong and I am correct.

[shell sonnet]

every day a new sentence with this guy
cant complain tho

[ocean palm]

can someone explain why the cerberus and model are so astonishly ass

[unkempt moss]

User error. Next

[sudden pewter]

Opportunity Costs exist too.

If I choose to run a dive weapon that focuses on close range I should understand I probably shouldn’t conte- hold on someone shit talked the model

[ocean palm]

picking model or cerberus is just a legit troll pick at this point

[sudden pewter]

You will be flayed. Your skins will fly as our banner.

[shell sonnet]

all the time in the world

[sudden pewter]

Model is arguably low A or high B tier given the reload buffs given this season

[chilly granite]

I think the problem is that they're targeting the wrong fun

like a lot of weapons were nerfed because they were too good at countering bullshit that was fun for lights

they sohuld've nerfed the light's fun bullshit

cough cough invis dash

[unkempt moss]

Catter targets fun in general. He's more like a chicken noodle soup level of fun.

[ocean palm]

thats the most inconsistent weapon i have ever seen, it either hits at 15m away or hits peanuts at 5m

[chilly granite]

that's called your aim is bad

[analog pewter]

i get that too lol

[chilly granite]

turn on dispersion reticle

if not all on enemy, you do no damage

if all on enemy, you fuck them

[unkempt moss]

Give me one season off the leash. We'd make millions.

[sudden pewter]

The Finals is fun. I like The Finals. Battlefield is fun. But I want to play The Finals, not BF6. So when some goober suggests adding attachments beyond optics, not understanding how that would be awful for general balance, I respond accordingly.

[unkempt moss]

Attachments aren't fun. They can go play battlefield. We need more things to take advantage of the unique things the finals offers.

[sudden pewter]

Suggestions for new additions are welcome, but they need to fit the fucking game first and foremost

[unkempt moss]

You dont even want a spear throw...

[chilly granite]

spear throw is legit god teir take

[shell sonnet]

hitting people with props:

[unkempt moss]

We don't even have a hybrid melee weapon yet.

[sudden pewter]

Melee weapons and Ranged weapons carry distinct downsides, making a bastard child of the two muddies the waters and introduces new problems

[shell sonnet]

(im still serious)

[unkempt moss]

Obviously its not going to out perform either side.

[chilly granite]

anything can be balanced if you don't mind it being shit

[sudden pewter]

I do not have faith embark could make a balanced bastard weapon given the vast majority of melee weapons are still 3/4 in the mire

[shell sonnet]

[insert lazy purple]

close range headshots are just complicated backstabs

[unkempt moss]

Its like how GooGun does everything, just not as well as specialized things.

Believe in me. We can get me on the balance team if we try hard enough.

[sudden pewter]

Once Embark fixes Melee and proves they aren’t goo huffers I’d be more open to the idea of a hybrid class of weapon

[unkempt moss]

Vote for me, GooKing, for your wepsNgadg class representative.

[sudden pewter]

Me first because I’m gods gift to gaming and never wrong, therefore I should be the sole visionary for the game

We need a second seasonal Battlepass, with Niki Minaj and GameGrump skins

[unkempt moss]

These are good. Vote for me as vice representative then.

[chilly granite]

me because my takes are the hottest and the embark balance team needs someone to break their echo chamber

[unkempt moss]

I promise to leave spear alone because spear users deserve nothing.

[shell sonnet]

removed cloak + dash
moved defib to light
buff all aspects of heavy

[shell sonnet]

wtf dude :(

[unkempt moss]

No, actually my GOUF patch comes with some substantial nerfs to heavy tbh

[chilly granite]

you've got however many people wokring on balance, you need one really loud and really crazy voice to balance it out to get actaully good changes

[shell sonnet]

didnt they mention potential s10 specials coming?

[chilly granite]

defib to light makes me wanna punch someone (you)

light doesn't deserve that misery

[unkempt moss]

You didnt hear? The throw chuds moved to hammer. We're making a hammer throw off of M2.

[serene glade]

They mentioned my nuts dragging across their face season 10

[shell sonnet]

this isnt fucking chiv

(people malding at me 3rd wheeling by throwing a dane axe will never not be funny tho)

[unkempt moss]

R uppercuts and launches, M2 can be held to charge, M1 throws when charging the M2 on hammer.

I do have spear reworks in the GOUF patch but I dont like spear players so they get nothing.

[ocean palm]

all i see with attachments is more major balancing issues and balancing hell for the devs

[serene glade]

I wish they were in balancing hell assmilk

[unkempt moss]

Id be fine with attachments as cosmetics on guns.

[chilly granite]

idk why the hell embark stays on the stats based balancing train instead of vibes based

[unkempt moss]

Because they are also no fun chuds.

[compact tundra]

Read game feedback and you'll see. I think we need a healthy balance of both

[unkempt moss]

Catter and Embark are two sides of the same coin 🤣

[chilly granite]

I'm saying embarks vibes not fools vibes

[compact tundra]

To me those are the same since most the melee and cl-40 nerfs were vibe based

[unkempt moss]

Im convinced whoever said it was right. Feedback is literally just a quarantine zone for embark to clean up other channels. They don't read it even a little.

[unkempt moss]

This is a good point. Also why no one trusts them to make the spear throw.

[serene glade]

The cl40 was decent for what like a week. Then they added the double self damage?

[chilly granite]

hahhaha good take

[unkempt moss]

What if we gave light a hybrid by making M1 throwing knives and M2 dagger back stab?

And balance accordingly! Before people get crazy.

[chilly granite]

that actually sounds cool

also a non-burst/like chain fire throwing knive primary fire

[unkempt moss]

Bow User would be the first person to actually like my sniper change. He's a real one.

[unkempt moss]

I'd even take m2 from throwing knives as the primary fire for dagger.

[chilly granite]

usability on that would be ass

it's like, 1.7s hold time

[unkempt moss]

Can't be too strong if you want to convince people.

We'll buff it after we get the change in.

What if you could zenyata orb charge them?

[chilly granite]

I think it'd be cool to have just like, a single throwing dagger, and you chuck them one by one, with a short interval and fairly low damage, like, 40, with like 300dps and similar range to the m11

and then right click is a charged stab for 500 damage

[unkempt moss]

Slowly appearing in your fingers over like 5 seconds, doing 30 damage each, with a max of 150, 1.5x headshot damage.

[chilly granite]

yeah clip based hold 5 daggers and throw them one two three four
but you can drop all but one and do a charged stab with it

[unkempt moss]

Why tf would we do 500 on a front stab?

[stoic garden]

i cant believe y'all designing more poke weapons in a game with poke meta

[chilly granite]

then you need to reload after the stab

500 backstab**

[visual pelican]

Did xp 54 get a buff a guy killed me at 20 meters in 1 second

[unkempt moss]

Theyre projectile with crazy drop and slow travel time.

[stoic garden]

no it's still mid

[unkempt moss]

Remember, this is in GOUF patch. It killed the poke meta for you, king.

[visual pelican]

Then how did he kill me that quickly 20 meters away at full hp

[stoic garden]

1 second is the ttk of most weapons in this game btw

[chilly granite]

20 meters is the only range where the xp is good lmao @visual pelican

[visual pelican]

Bro i know 😭

[stoic garden]

if ur a light you die in less than a second 🤷🏿‍♂️

[visual pelican]

Honestly for me i feel like it takes longer bc i use that gun 24/7 and it feels more then a second

[chilly granite]

you gotta

uknow

hit your shots

[stoic garden]

if the outdated half abandoned sheet i have isnt wrong, these are the ttks if you hit all your shots on body

[visual pelican]

Brother 😭

[chilly granite]

that's correct

I retested today

[visual pelican]

Well eh just saying its definitely quick it just feels longer sometimes just asking because this guy went on a 15 kill streak with it and it just feel like it killed me faster then usual

[unkempt moss]

Probably cheating. Just report and let embark sort him out.

[chilly granite]

sounds like aimbot or insane player

[visual pelican]

Nah i figured he was probably just better and is evaise dash good

He was lvl 109

[unkempt moss]

I'd whoop his ass no cap

[visual pelican]

Okay so is evaise dash good i usally ise grapple

[unkempt moss]

The best

[chilly granite]

I've seen level 100s on my team who look suspicious as fuck/extremely aimbotty on spectate

dash is beyond op

[unkempt moss]

Youre about to get a 3 page essay from bow user on dash for asking.

[chilly granite]

if you would like a thesis i can write one but I gotta win my tdm first

[visual pelican]

Well i mean whatevers the meta ig

[chilly granite]

dash defines the meta

[unkempt moss]

Dash.

[visual pelican]

Nice

[chilly granite]

makes sure you practice flicking while dashing in the practice range so you aren't girefing your own aim

I've seen too many teammate lights who every time they dash, they spray the entire fucking room

[unkempt moss]

Just play heavy. We have the best SMG in the game.

[stoic garden]

so overpowered light is still the weakest class after 9 seasons

[unkempt moss]

Here we go.

[stoic garden]

heavy is king ✊🏿

[sudden pewter]

Light isn’t weak, just the easiest to punish and has the largest population of bad players

[chilly granite]

that's because dash is op

they balance weapons around people missing everything on dash in average games

then good players actaully hit lighgt, which makes light feel underpowered

[stoic garden]

it's not weak, but i feel it's generally the worst of the 3 classes

[chilly granite]

light looks balanced in stats because the average player misses everything on a dash light

[sudden pewter]

As a baseline or due to the quality of players? Light brings unique options to any engagement and I see value in that

I’m not going to say Heavy is bad because we lack mobility in the same way I won’t say Light is bad because they can’t 1v1 a Heavy head on

[unkempt moss]

What we should do is give heavy gateway, increase range to 100m but they heavy breathe and get a 10% movement nerf when one portal is out.

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/horse-tiktok-spin-spinning-horse-gif-2562309587417970705

[unkempt moss]

Weak is a mindset. Light are weak because they succumb to that mindset. Heavy is strong because we thrash against the chains of that mindset.

[stoic garden]

whatever that means

[sudden pewter]

Lights are the most populous archetype with the lowest winrate. Heavies are the least populous and have the highest winrate. Really makes you think (unless you’re a light ofc)

[chilly granite]

light is boht weak and op at the same time

with no mistakes, light is op, but it's too fragile so even extremely skilled pros just die sometimes

[compact tundra]

Ok big man, my sword will take your minigun any day of the week

[chilly granite]

this makes the quality of playesr more obvious

[unkempt moss]

Heavy players maximize their strengths and deal with their weaknesses. Light players complain about their weaknesses and dont maximize their strengths.

[keen turtle]

is there an exploit to hold an item and shoot at the same time? ie barrel

[sudden pewter]

You will be reduced to a red mist Ishallah

[sudden pewter]

No, but a turret can be placed on a prop, and aforementioned prop picked up and carried around with the turret active

[unkempt moss]

I wish this was meta for medium.

[stoic garden]

this is so real

[sudden pewter]

You will never reach Agartha.

[unkempt moss]

Let turrets be attached to heavy.

Hold on. Can you attach turrets to chuck? Or APS? Can we make a megazord chuck?

[stoic garden]

iirc no

[sudden pewter]

Chuck can be turned into a fireball. For whatever reason any pyro mines detonated on Chuck maintain their radius but bound to Chuck, so you can weaponize him into a Damage AoE

[unkempt moss]

.... I need to make spicy chuck

[stoic garden]

they probably made it so because the emitter expands when dropped, which could lead to fuckass interactions

[keen turtle]

killcam showed m60 and a fire barrel. im wondering if its desync but idk if ive seen that in my many hours

[stoic garden]

this is the case for any object that isnt destroyed by pyro mines, like cashboxes

[unkempt moss]

I thought mines deactivated when lifted.

[stoic garden]

they do but fire and gas mines still do their thing, just with reduced explosion damage

[sudden pewter]

You could have taken damage from the barrel or its explosive. Throwing barrels is relatively common

[keen turtle]

nope kill cam shots fired

[unkempt moss]

Wow. Stinky chuck.

Post the clip

[compact tundra]

By God's light I'll turn this bitch into the siege of Vienna I tell you h'what

Also I just remembered that's a politically charged war do to an event a few years ago, didn't mean it that way

[chilly granite]

so anyway, if teh game was balanced around a light that didnt have dash to break aim, then light could recieve the buffs it deserves to raise th skill floor while keeping the super high skill ceiling of its insane utility

[unkempt moss]

Anyway, what else can be attached to chuck?

[chilly granite]

your mum

that was such a bad joke I'm sorry

[unkempt moss]

So mines, mum, and anything else?

[chilly granite]

did they fix turret?

[unkempt moss]

Fix in what way?

[chilly granite]

tyrret on chuck

i think it can go trhouhwalls

[unkempt moss]

I sure hope they didn't

[compact tundra]

I'm pretty sure they did

[chilly granite]

hot take

[keen turtle]

This is the clip of the Replay showing M60 shooting with a barrel in-hand. I it's desync. This was in Plat

[chilly granite]

smokes need to pop faster

I just melee'd a fire extinguisher as I was being shot hoping it would give me cover and it took 3 business days to expand

meanwhile goo is hard cover and pops instantly

[compact tundra]

I love doing hot potato chuck. You and a buddy stack C4, explosive mines, and pyro mines on the front and chuck it at an enemy

[unkempt moss]

That's pretty crazy.

[keen turtle]

Pretty big exploit if so. I think desync is more likely

[unkempt moss]

I always assume embark's incompetence before a single players maliciousness.

Are people asking for light double jump because of this vertigo event?

[torn dawn]

lewis

[compact tundra]

I agree but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't screaming at appoh after the sword nerfs. Obviously he didn't cause them but like telling your chat to spam the discord is scummy to me

[unkempt moss]

Is that why people always say he did that?

I never knew he actually did that. I just thought he got blamed because of a video topic

[shell sonnet]

smoke covers you?

whenever i use it, its literally a thin mist, and i get shot from 30 meters as if it werent there, let alone 5 meters or point blank

[unkempt moss]

CS2 smokes is what we need.

[shell sonnet]

probably not happening, changing arena makes it too costly

probably

i just want a reliable sphere
cant look inside from outside, cant look outside from inside

everything is gray inside silhouettes
done

[unkempt moss]

I just want the best of the best bud.

But if you want valorant smokes thats fine too

[shell sonnet]

i mean, id like that too

i just dont think its very feasible
but what do i know, im not a dev

[unkempt moss]

You are in my heart

[shell sonnet]

°-°

Heavy has been ABSURDLY OP since day ONE and never changed. It's so easy to kill and so hard to die that it's embarrassing...
also give him double sh1900 so he can delete a team of lights by himself

[unkempt moss]

I love the double sh buff

[shell sonnet]

tbf, the distribution of the other stuff seems interesting

for an ltm, that is

(except the horrors thats riot on heavy holy sh-t)

eeeh, maybe since theyre so slow?

oh wait, winch exists

[vocal flume]

for the redstream stream circuit AKM skin, does the top part glow when the gun is fired or is it just the icon thats supposed to mislead you

[shell sonnet]

no idea, but there is a skin showcase channel on youtube that might have it

[chilly granite]

@indigo nexus btw did i manage to convince you at least a lil bit that dash is op

[sudden pewter]

This looks like the most fuckass stupidity I’ve had the misfortune of reading

Tell me it’s ironic, I beg

I understand media literacy is at an all time low but turning The Finals into a format it’s actively trying to differ from is cringe

https://tenor.com/view/buzz-no-signs-of-intelligent-life-gif-13481205

Ofc it’s a weeb.

[chilly granite]

I mean, the thesis statement isn't even that bad imho, but the execution is horrifying

and the execution directly contradicts the ideas he suggested

like, heavy is op, medium is ignored and light is too weak outside of a few gadgets that carry the class

if you deleted gateway then light would probably be unpicked in pro tomorrow

but most of their changes would make heavy oper and light shitter

[sand monolith]

This is the most unfortunate thing I’ve ever had the displeasure of reading

[unkempt moss]

Worse than my takes?

[sand monolith]

Wait c4tter said almost the same thing LOL

[unkempt moss]

Why are we suppressing the LH1. They aren't even functional.

[sand monolith]

It’s so fucking bad dude. Why complain about there being no variety and then suggest that the classes be reworked to all have 1 defined role

[unkempt moss]

If I ever post the gouf patch hopefully its better received than this.

I know Catter is just going to call me a dumbass but I've put quite a bit of thought in to it.

[sand monolith]

Oh my god and minigun as a spec LOL

[unkempt moss]

MGL as a spec honestly I could see it. Then you could buff it in to being strong.

[sand monolith]

Should be a gadget

Then it wouldn’t have to be buffed and it could stay just okay without being committal

[chilly granite]

only if the cooldonw is totally ass

[unkempt moss]

Gadget makes more sense. Thats what I meant in my head but I just carried over spec in my head.

[chilly granite]

but mgl as a gadget makes a good amount of sense, I don't think it "works" as a primary conceptually

if it's meant to be a primary it needs to have direct hit explosions at least

[unkempt moss]

I'm still waiting for the RPG to move to primary.

[sand monolith]

Mgl won’t ever be a viable primary unless it’s annoying as fuck to play against

[chilly granite]

I'm still waiting for rpg to get rocket jumping so heavies can injurt themselves and waste rpg so they dont oneshot me wiht it

[unkempt moss]

Dual Blades on light, sword to medium. Honestly he kinda cooked.

It does make me laugh that medium received ARN and another AR.

[sand monolith]

Restraint

[chilly granite]

it's not the most awful take, I think stacking dash and thurst is toxic no matter what else you do to sword

giving medium a movement melee isn't bad either

I think giving light riot makes better sense than dual blades though

dual blades partial block would suck on light

[unkempt moss]

Does it completely remove BFR and just give revolver to Heavy?

I've wanted a buffed dual blades to light forever.

Dual Blades and grapple so you can block on the gap close.

[unkempt moss]

I've said switch these two forever for these exact reasons. It would need to be tuned a bit but I think it would be fun.

Heavy has C4 and breach. Wild.

[chilly granite]

honestly lights melee options depend so much on dash/grapple/invis synergy that i don't think it would need much tuning at all

with sword's current numbers i think it'd be totally fine on medium

[unkempt moss]

And cerb to heavy. Based.

[chilly granite]

i think everyone agrees cerb belongs on heavy

[unkempt moss]

It's such an insane mix of random nonsense and a couple ideas I like.

[chilly granite]

yeah

broken clock right twice a day

[unkempt moss]

Me attacking a heavy on light dual blades

[chilly granite]

dual blades would need some huge numbers changes though

the attack speeed owuld have to double

[unkempt moss]

If they made the block on dual blades more consistent I think it could work on light. Right now they take wayyyy to much damage when you should be blocking things.

[chilly granite]

but dual blades would be hilarioulsy fun on light

i think the biggest problem with light dual blades is that the attack animation is really slow and leaves you exposed for a super long time

light would die in the first attack 100% of the time

[unkempt moss]

If i can m1 someone to death on dagger by walking in their player model dual blades will be fine

I'm sure it wont be viable in high elo, but they aren't right now either.

[chilly granite]

hahhahah true

[unkempt moss]

I see what Trent was saying now. Giving every healing gadget to medium is so dumb. It just keeps going deeper and deeper as you read everything

[chilly granite]

yes but also healing grenade is a 10/10 idea

[shell sonnet]

i have no idea

my brain isnt working rn anyways

[chilly granite]

give heavy h+ and give light healing grenade

[unkempt moss]

How do you envision healing grenade working?

[chilly granite]

pyro nade/healing bubble

[unkempt moss]

Like a better version of the barrel?

[chilly granite]

ye similar to goo grenade

and make it do the bonus heal on direct hit, but on anyone in the pop radius

[unkempt moss]

Oh like grenade is better barrel. Gotcha.

[chilly granite]

the numbers can be the same as barrel but doing the 50 instant heal on everyone at moment of pop, and maybe having reduced heal over time, would be solid

cuz the barrel needs you to hit teammate directly for the 50 heal, and that's hard af

u know what smoke grenades/smoke cans need?

to not take 5 fucking years to produce smoke

[unkempt moss]

I feel like theres so much healing already.

Do you think the poke meta is being exacerbated by healing?

[chilly granite]

to be fair I think 1) heal bubbles are too common 2) h+ is way too OP still

I think the heal meta is being exacerbated by poke

heal counters poke, dive counters heal

the nubmesrs on h+ are just fucked though

[unkempt moss]

Like too much?

[chilly granite]

the h+ can outheal xp54 iirc?

186 heal/s

[unkempt moss]

Hm.

[chilly granite]

the xp is 230dps

but the h+ can outheal a mid-falloff arn for sure

and that's assuming all shots conncet

once oyu factor in the enemy missing a few shots, and a heal beam hitting the heavy too

it 100% outheals m11

but tbh the heal meta is more from dome shield

weapon dps doesn't kill a dome shield fast enough to prevent a heavy getting healed almost to full in it's duration, and then you have to just take another fight again

which is why it's a poke meta, becaues you want to force the cooldowns on the h+ and heal beam and dome

I don't know why people don't dive it tbh

maybe the dive weapons are just underpowerd right now?

like, double barreled, sa12, cerb

db and cerb maybe underpowerd but the sa12 isn't

tbh that's probably why the sa is meta becuase it's counter to the heal meta via large burst damage

honestly there's an extremly good argument to be made that 1) healbeam is also too mcuh heal/s 2) heal bubbles are too good and 3) healing shoulnd't stack

like, 186 heal/s from the h+, plus 46/s from the heal beam, plus 10/s from the heal barrel, ends up with a fucking nightmare of a heavy to kill

the H+ shouldn't be so much more effective than the heal beam when it has greater reach

I'm pretty sure all of that together comes damn close to m11 dps

dive should beat heal but if the numbers are fucked enough

[wild zenith]

i cant confirm, but it feels like shotguns arent capable of trading kills?

[chilly granite]

I don't think that's true just statisitcally unlikley

@indigo nexus might know

[analog pewter]

god after playing so much deagles i am sucking with the model now

[chilly granite]

Hahaha

The model is so punishing to use, but it's so rewarding too

[lofty parrot]

Please add a flail for heavy, hatchet or machete for medium, and brass knuckles for light. Highly reccommend a pump action shotgun or benelli m4 for medium. I also suggest plasma rifle, and personal sheilds, wall mounted breaching gernades and cashout defense traps that you can mount on them that either detonate a small emp, gas, or fire. Also being able to trade your gadget slots for an extra ability, for instance: Medium trades all gadget slots for two sentry guns, or sentry gun and healing beam... ect ect.. or light being able to evasive dash and cloak or grapple hook

[raven vector]

If you were thrown into a zombie apocalypse. What kind of firearm would be the best to use

[serene glade]

whatever gun puts my brain matter on the ceiling

[versed lava]

Double barrel

[unkempt moss]

What kind of zombies are they? Like 28 days, night of the living dead.

[sly crest]

buff c4

[indigo nexus]

If being the best makes something OP then I already considered it such, I just don’t think nerfing it would be good for the overall balance as I don’t think light is too strong and this would be almost a direct nerf to the class.

[indigo nexus]

I would be very surprised if this was true, but it would be very rare to see it happen so I don’t think I’ve observed it myself

[flint bluff]

glitch buff?

[proud rover]

I think theres 2 simple fixes for the evasive dash.
First one is just adding a longer cooldown inbetween each charge.
Second one would be to take a charge away up the overall distance you dash, and give you a slight movement boost for 2 seconds after.

[hardy dust]

The fix to dash is not touching it and just buffing invis and grapple instead

[wraith orchid]

nah, dash is too spammable without any ressource management, I think a nerf from 3 to to 2 stock (possibly combined with a charge speed increase)+ a buff to other specialization will work

[serene glade]

No verticality on dash

[shell sonnet]

Alright lads, whats the next household item we turn into a sledgehammer?

Oh hey unjust, didnt see you in chat

[compact tundra]

I just got on

[shell sonnet]

Ive just been told a vacuum could work

Maybe holding it upside down, at the suck end?

[compact tundra]

We should make a sledge skin that's just you rag dolling a large child

[shell sonnet]

The last light you eliminated

[compact tundra]

Drunk dad larp would go crazy

[compact tundra]

Even better just make it a light

[shell sonnet]

Triumph totem, and its made of enemy statues, in the way the water color skin set gets colors as you eliminate enemies

[shell sonnet]

Glued together by goo, ofc

[shell sonnet]

Yells every time you swing

Sometimes saying sorry when you eliminate someone

How do we stop em from flopping around all over the place?

Also, pool noodle

[compact tundra]

Rigamortis

[shell sonnet]

i want a sledge guitar, that allows us to create our own song for it

[unkempt moss]

How do we buff those two things to be on the same level?

[wraith orchid]

give them 3 charges

[shell hornet]

playing sh against healing beam mediums is so annoying because its impossible to kill heavies in two shots if they get healed

[compact tundra]

2 smaller buffs I'd like to see that'd do a few things is for the cloak spec to still recharge while cloaked from vanish bomb and for grapple to be able to grapple throwables again

[wraith orchid]

focus the heal beam then. It's better anyway, because even if you kill the heavy, he'll just get insta-raised and healed by the medium

[shell hornet]

yea i do normally but i get winched by heavy 99% of the time

[oblique crypt]

Again? Why would they remove that?

[compact tundra]

They already have, I'm saying add it back in

[edgy estuary]

Heavy mains are always gonna want to nerf lights, because they can counter eachother, and vice versa. Every class is beatable, some people are just better than you.

[wraith orchid]

nah, I don't want it nerfed, I just want a less stronger dash, because melee is unplayable versus them, unless you play a complete nullifier (winch, lockbolt, straight up a ranged splash weapon with the rpg ) I'd like the light's kit to be a bit more diversified, I feel like right now, it's about as meta-following of a class as medium, except at least it's only the gadgets for him, for light, it's...Pretty much everything, up to the weapon with the unnecessary v9s buff

[wraith orchid]

I feel like the specialization invisibility could not deactivate the moment you take damage, unlike the invis. grenade. And the hook to have an extremely fast recharge rate (like 3 seconds after usage, because even then, it's not as useful as an unpredictable burst of speed in any direction)

[unkempt moss]

Dash is obviously over tuned to some extent. I would like for grapple to be buffed quite a bit. I use invis and I think its strong, but the community at large seems to think its bad and needs help.

The players will always be the problems with light and its strength. I played with a light sniper last night that made me even more sure of that opinion. He was absolutely insane, and not because of his aim. He played the weapon smart, played support gadgets. Didn't over extend and corraled them in to spots for us with harassment

[wraith orchid]

I mean, you have to be insane to play sniper well. What was his combat score and yours?

[muted condor]

They should make it so if you use all three dashes there’s a longer cool down

Make people think twice before spamming it

[unkempt moss]

I'm saying his combat score wasn't what impressed me even though he did really well. Its how he played. I don't usually judge my randoms off of the score board. He played smart, his risk reward calculations were top tier, and his load out was amazing. He could have gotten zero kills and I would have still loved him.

In the right place at the right time all three rounds. We absolutely dog walked the lobby.

[wraith orchid]

Let me cast some doubt about that last line, I'm definitely not happy if the score of my ally is closer to 0 then any other number 😂 but i'm a spear main, so I suppose I can't talk much about fight score

[unkempt moss]

I dont think he really outscored me or my duo, but thats because he was enabling us to get in and maximize our game.

[unkempt moss]

I was exaggerating, but I will say I will judge someone off of their number of deaths before I judge them off of kills. Any chud can walk in and trade for zero value over and over.

I'm starting to think deaths should subtract from your combat score.

And let that mf go in the negatives.

[sudden pewter]

Lego Bricks
(This will make sense later I promise)

[serene glade]

me when i want a projectile weapon thats throwable and not throwing knives and has no headshot multiplier

[sudden pewter]

Like, as a gadget?

Also change your PFP, change is bad and I don’t like it

Now I can’t read your messages in Zach’s nasally tenor

[primal lark]

I think embark should add the famas to the game

[sudden pewter]

Have I got news for you

[serene glade]

i just remember someone asking for something stupid like a brick as a weapon

[sudden pewter]

You don’t like new toy???? You just hate fun!!!1!2!2!

[primal lark]

Yippee

[edgy estuary]

It’s not overtuned though, any light beating you for being out of position or sneaking up on you, is still going to beat you without dash, Heavy is so damn strong and hand held this season that it is nothing but a skill issue at this point, especially for a goo heavy - you have 20 ammo in goo gun to stun lock, just use your utility smartly bro.

The skill floor for heavy is actually quite high with how much strategy you need to use, I’d wager half the heavies complaining about getting stomped don’t even use their utility and gadgets well if at all, and that is the same for bad lights with positioning.

[sudden pewter]

What exactly about/on Heavy do you view as strong? What has changed in S9 that you believe Embark is holding its hand?

[sudden jasper]

what specialization should i use for a sniper build for medium?

[sudden pewter]

Demat for quick escapes through walls or floors
HealBeam would be good if you intend to stick close to your homies as you poke (the heavy will love you)

[unkempt moss]

He would know, he hates fun more than anything.

[muted condor]

He might hate fun but i still hate defib

[unkempt moss]

I say this because its the main point of contention against light right now. Its also a problem of dash being able to use the other specs in the form of gadgets so theres no reason to use the others.

Overtuned may be the wrong way to look at it but dash crushes a large majority of the population of this game. The problem with dash is for it to be usable at the high it will almost necessarily need to be overtuned for the bottom 95%

[muted condor]

The answer is simple

Remove light from the game and dash won’t over shadow the other specs

[unkempt moss]

Playing the skill issue class light and talking about the most nuanced spec in the game is wild. If GooGun was even remotely as strong as you think it would be seen with the frequency that you see dash on light. I'm assuming you play GooGun frequently talking like you are, because you must know goolocking a dashing light on these servers isnt as simple as "just utility bro lmayo"

Sorry, goo gun is very strong. Let me correct that before you misunderstand. Its not as simple as dash, but it probably is stronger. The problem with dash is that the barrier to entry is having a pulse until you hit the very peak of the game.

[sudden pewter]

Stronger than the other options definitely isn’t overtuned in this case because Grapple works exactly as expected and does what it’s supposed to do well. Grapple isn’t weak, it’s just not dash 🤷‍♂️

Cloak also certainly cloaks the Light but could probably use some changes

[unkempt moss]

Grapple is similar to sniper in that its something that is designed to be played with large sightlines and away from your team. Which is ineffective in the finals. Its fun, and people meme with it on sword and double barrel. Its just in the wrong game.

I use cloak mainly, so I think its fine. But im sure it falls off on the high end as counters and team play becomes more prevalent.

[wraith orchid]

Oh, I see a pixel move, better activate my auto-aim hack

[unkempt moss]

I don't want dash to be unusable. I think people think I'm attacking their play thing when I talk about it. I just wish it was a bit more difficult to use effectively.

Right now it's let me dunk on this plat- player because they can't track it.

[sudden pewter]

I agree with this. It’s okay for some options be niche or their strength mainly map dependent:

• I’m going to play away from my team with a sniper for the opportunity to OHK other Lights or deal beefy chunks of damage at the cost of being vulnerable to dives and requiring large sightlines.
• I’m going to use a melee weapon knowing I lose the ability to be effective at range, for the opportunity to use whatever utility my melee weapon has in combat understanding I need to be close to be effective.
  But I don’t like having options so niche they’re just worse than any other option or are at odds with 90% of the game.

[unkempt moss]

It does feel like people expect every kit to work on every map, in every variant, in every situation.

[wraith orchid]

More like "a bullet graze me, better start spamming that dash and hope the guy in front Isn't a smurf ruby"

[icy egret]

I'm back. Anyone have any ideas for recommendations for duels with on Heavy? Akimbos do fuck all often enough because they choose to shoot the wrong area because of their huge spread if not ADS.

[sudden pewter]

Dagger is a gimmick weapon from when Embark was experimenting with what did and didn’t work, and players want the dagger (capable of OHKing all archetypes effectively which is a very problematic mechanic) to not only be buffed, but competitive

And of course it’s also on the smallest, most mobile archetype

[unkempt moss]

I say this as a dagger player, I hope the dagger sucks forever.

[wraith orchid]

Spear in a nutshell

[wraith orchid]

Full 360° hitbox

[unkempt moss]

The dagger is one of those plat- weapons that is fun and not competitive. I think its fully alright to be like that. Plat- covers huge portions of the population

[sudden pewter]

I’m vehemently against the removal of content, it sucks, even if it’s content I don’t like. But if dagger gets reworked (it’ll have to eventually) the players that exclusively use it and nothing else will bitch and moan. It’s just not compatible with The Finals, it’s issues exacerbated by the server performance

[icy egret]

Though I did notice something in that last match. If I walked directly at my enemy while not ADS, I hit more shots. Maybe the secret sauce is walking.

[sudden pewter]

It’s not just a melee weapon, it’s also conditional. Getting close to an enemy isn’t enough to be effective, you also need to be behind *** them (or in the front or side or under or above because server reg is fucked beyond repair)

[wraith orchid]

I don't think so, it can be really strong when used correctly, ruby daggers exist after all, they must be doing something good

[sudden pewter]

Embark obscuring server ping is also super fucked and very scummy

[wraith orchid]

Yea, and yet it has more success at high level then sword that's fucked

[serene glade]

its even scummier when i read that the dual blade deflect is entirely dependent on ping and you have to lead your deflects more or less according to ping. love how thats a thing, but theres no issues or rush to address the horrible state of the servers

[sudden pewter]

You will pay $30 for additional premium cosmetics every season. You will cry when your feeding trough is empty.

[unkempt moss]

I try not to judge it off of outliers though. Unless theres huge numbers of ruby dagger, i never see them, then it's not really worth putting in the sample size. Im sure there's MGL and Spears in Ruby as well.

[serene glade]

legit might be next to impossible to defelect shots into a dashing while shooting light, so its insane to me that people come in here and complain about it being op lmao

[sudden pewter]

I would willingly pay an additional $15 every season and deal with longer matchmaking queues to ensure all players in all my matches (casual or otherwise) have reasonable ping

[wraith orchid]

Lol to that last line. But I intend to be the first ruby spear if there wasn't one before. Someone in the finals chat keeps saying there's one, but they haven't showed proof yet

[unkempt moss]

I learned the dagger this season and we walked our way up through ranked after the initial learning dip. So I agree it can be strong.

[coral dirge]

I tried dagger for the first time today and its strong with the right setup

[sudden pewter]

Call it Premium Queue and use the earnings to upgrade servers ffs. I get improving infrastructure for is a grueling task but we haven’t seen any benefits to the addition of Mythic tier cosmetics or the $30 Premium BO

[unkempt moss]

I'd gladly pay that 30$

[coral dirge]

saw some vids of dagger in quick cash from the guys in the other chat part of this server and they were nuking people with dagger

[serene glade]

feel like theres 2 ways to play dagger. stealth/support/flanks. or server and dash abuse

[unkempt moss]

When you play fighting games you know theres always some rando that enjoys the absolute most dogshit character in the game and they still are at the top of the leaderboard. I believe it.

[sudden pewter]

That’s Light in general ideally

[coral dirge]

He was doing incredible ambushes and wiping multiple at a time

[serene glade]

yeah honestly lmao

[icy egret]

Another match also confirms that walking directly at my enemy helps in killing my enemy. More bullets hit than the deadzone, and I can actually hit headshots without ADS.

[coral dirge]

He did this one move where he grappled a goo wall and swung around the entire wall and backstab the dude

[icy egret]

Though, any other help with dueling gadgets would be nice.

[coral dirge]

which class?