💣┇weapons-gadgets

[placid basalt]

Wouldnt a private match literally be more accurate because it has less latency

[spring grotto]

Lol

[indigo nexus]

Why would it have less latency?

[spring grotto]

Why wouldn’t it

[raw cave]

no, because you have to count fear factor, two other opponents, explosions, falling debree, bullets flying everywhere

[placid basalt]

Because it only had 2 players to deal with instead of 12

[indigo nexus]

Null hypothesis should be that there is no difference… in lieu of a difference being proposed

[muted condor]

When was the last time someone actually used full block tho

[placid basalt]

None of that changes that it blocks an rpg shot though..

[indigo nexus]

That’s not related to latency, that’s server performance. Which player count affects a bit but is generally fine at full server capacity anyway.

[raw cave]

that only strengthening my point

[placid basalt]

Your point isnt what i was talking about

[placid basalt]

I see

[raw cave]

my point is that your 'tests' in the private match are not tests

[muted condor]

I think most of us can agree the shield really isn’t a problem if you’re half decent and have game knowledge

[spring grotto]

Nuh uh

[indigo nexus]

What point is being made here, I’m not sure I’m following this conversation correctly

[spring grotto]

Except the fundamental flaws

[placid basalt]

It is a test though because the game functions the same in a priv match as in a normal one. Shooting an rpg at someone there is the same as anywhere else lol

[spring grotto]

Idk dawg i rage posted sumn n these guys eatin it up

[raw cave]

only server sided problems, cause a lot of my hits on the riot don't connect due to servers

[muted condor]

There’s nothing fundamentally wrong with it

[spring grotto]

Mmmmm yuh huh

[indigo nexus]

Is riot shield hitbox not shooter-authoritative? It being handled on the server would be silly. I just thought the animations did not line up with it.

[placid basalt]

Riot shield is broken in a couple ways, mostly against guns because theres no way to damage them

[muted condor]

If you want a fundamentally flawed item look at the H+

[indigo nexus]

It definitely isn’t victim authoritative, as there is a notable delay between when the victim expects to be able to block hits and when they can actually block them

[placid basalt]

Im just happy they nuked it to a non-game breaking level

[indigo nexus]

Ha, if only… riot shield might be considered competitive

[muted condor]

It’s better now but still

[placid basalt]

God DAYUM

[muted condor]

This shouldn’t happen

[placid basalt]

Yeah i be doing 450 to heavies sometimes its annoying bc theyll have emitter too

Emitter on release was actually the most horrid experience ever bc it would be triple heavies with emitters, berricade, and dome shield with minigun

Genuinely impossible to counter without spamming glitch nades and data reshaper

Now emitter is fairly balanced and the H+ is the more broken heal

[muted condor]

Does it make the game unplayable? No but its kinda shit when you completely outplay the enemy and should get the kill no matter what but the H+ saves them with no way for you to stop it

[placid basalt]

Real question is when are they buffing the heal gun bro

[spring grotto]

Just hit head shots bub

[placid basalt]

These two new items made it completely not worth it 90% of the time

[muted condor]

The barricade glitch was really the only super broken thing with the chuck

[placid basalt]

Bro liked his own reply 😭

[spring grotto]

I did

[indigo nexus]

This is typically referred to as teamplay, if they were saved by any other method. People seem to make an exception for this gadget, and I’m not quite sure why.

If the enemy team outplays your own then you will indeed lose.

[muted condor]

Most people don’t know but the emitter does not stack with multiple of them so having three on a team is actually detrimental

[spring grotto]

H ball isnt good just pick it up

[placid basalt]

Its instant rather than slowly outpacing shots

[indigo nexus]

Not sure what you mean by this.

[spring grotto]

Indestructible shield

[placid basalt]

Heal gun can be out-Dps-ed by guns, so can emitter. H+ does 200 health in like 1.5 seconds

[indigo nexus]

Quite a lot of gadgets or specs can be used without a notable time cost

[muted condor]

The problem is when the team play includes the class with the best movement and damage getting a healing gun that can instantly save a heavy that is at 1hp from 20m away

[spring grotto]

Wouldnt be 1hp if u hit heads

[placid basalt]

Bum

[indigo nexus]

Hmm. Well, it is more instant than a goo grenade I suppose… but I do not see why this is viewed as a fundamental problem.

[muted condor]

Pipe down the adults are having a conversation right now

[muted condor]

Kinda breaks the class identity imo

[spring grotto]

“Pipe down” lol says the “adult”

[placid basalt]

Goo grenade doesnt get them to over half in 1 second tho, theyd need 10 seconds for heal

[muted condor]

I wouldn’t mind light having a healing item but it invalidates M as the “support/healer”

[indigo nexus]

Indeed, but conversely the infuser doesn’t strictly stop them from dying; they’re still prone to being killed.

[placid basalt]

Exactly, medium having it as specialization was the entire point of healing, now the other classes dont need it from medium ever

[indigo nexus]

Anyway, this should not be a goo grenade vs H+ argument when their utility differs a lot

[muted condor]

The Chuck is a great example of a healing item that fits the class and doesn’t harm class identity

[placid basalt]

Goo nade + being instantly healed by the light is why its an issue

[indigo nexus]

Well, I’ve never been one for wishing to enforce any kind of class identity when not strictly necessary.

[placid basalt]

Mediums back to full basically and in full safety all in 2 seconds when they lost the gunfight significantly

[spring grotto]

Just hit heads

Genuinely just hit head n healing from all sources is null

[indigo nexus]

Do you think the gadget is overpowered? The complaint seems to be based around the magnitude of its impact but I am not aware that the gadget is considered much too powerful right now.

[spring grotto]

Cept maybe 2 sources

[muted condor]

It’s definitely a problem

[spring grotto]

Just hit heads buster

[placid basalt]

Not overpowered, just a bit unfair sometimes

[boreal laurel]

This made me think: what if the infuser got a headshot bonus? Like very weak heal on body shots and much higher if you hit the head

[muted condor]

I think the idea of it being a single shot to heals 50 hp over time would be a great alternative

[placid basalt]

And the real issue is how weak it makes medium as support

[indigo nexus]

I think its nontrivial use already gives it enough skill gap.

Most gadgets are a lot easier to use than it is already, no need to make it more severe

[boreal laurel]

That’s fair

[placid basalt]

Wrong im afraid because it still doubles your ttk while making theirs the same

Them hitting headshots while you hit headshots is still a guaranteed loss for you

[sudden pewter]

@muted condor post the image where you dealt an obscene amount of damage and still died

[spring grotto]

Thrust a door knob buster

[placid basalt]

He just did i think

[sudden pewter]

Again

[muted condor]

Just did

[placid basalt]

^^

[spring grotto]

Nah, my opponents arent that good

[placid basalt]

Then youre down in gold 😭😭😭

[spring grotto]

Oh yea far down in good on the cusp of ruby

[indigo nexus]

I don’t think inter-class balance should be brought into it. If it’s fair among other gadgets of its class there should be no problem in that regard; as long as medium is decently balanced and light and medium are decently balanced with regard to one another this does not pose any issue I can find on this front.

[muted condor]

His dad works at embark as well

[placid basalt]

It should be because its a medium specialization

[spring grotto]

My father shot himself

[indigo nexus]

You mean it should be better? I’m pretty sure it is.

[placid basalt]

No i mean that heal has no place over dmat because of the new heals

[spring grotto]

Quite rude n insensitive man

[placid basalt]

Med can just run dmat and light run H+ now

[muted condor]

I do not care

[indigo nexus]

On the assumption that a healer is mandatory and it’s better for the light to be a healer then this could make sense, but… is it? My perspective of the balance does not line up with this.

[spring grotto]

Yikes man, thats a crazy outlook. All cuz i said things you disagreed with. Scum

[placid basalt]

Most rubies ive seen run H-M-L
Wench, dmat, infuser

Every single match

[deep karma]

My favorite spec... the Wench.

[muted condor]

I think class identity should be considered because do we really want a heavy with sniper and jet pack

[spring grotto]

Ill tell my dad to add that

[placid basalt]

Speaking of, can embark work on getting these fucking queues fixed. I should not be going into full ruby and d1 lobbies when im in mid-high plat

[indigo nexus]

Ah, you see I care very little about rubies. There are just so few of them.

[spring grotto]

Yes u should

[placid basalt]

I literally play against more rubies than my own goddamn rank

[spring grotto]

Youll be better in no time

[muted condor]

“You will fight top 500 players in your quick cash matches and you’ll enjoy it you ungrateful brat”

[placid basalt]

Dawg not when i have to run with other plats 😭

[raw cave]

class identity should be in the game, because if there are no differences why even make the classes?

[indigo nexus]

People say this a lot but one does notice a total lack of meaningful suggestion as to how, further than banning rubies or killing the gamemode altogether

[placid basalt]

Exactly, the entire point of classes to begin with

[muted condor]

Actually banning rubes sounds kinda nice

[indigo nexus]

It’s a hero builder, not a hero shooter. They’re supposed to act as open-ended templates

[placid basalt]

If heavy has wench and shields, lights have their special movement and invis, then med should have heals

THE heal

[indigo nexus]

It is quite unreasonable unfortunately

[placid basalt]

Legit i had to play against bizzy the other day while my whole team was at like 35k

[muted condor]

You reached ruby congratulations you beat the game now go outside lmao

[indigo nexus]

Medium has fortification and movement ability. The classes should not be so predestined to fit certain roles like that.

[placid basalt]

DUDE not just ranked, rubies literally stack and go into fucking tdms all night

Like what kind of practice do they need in tdm GO OUTSIDE

[muted condor]

We’re not saying light shouldn’t ever have any healing but that healing shouldn’t out perform the healing of the class who’s base idea is support

[placid basalt]

Exactly, the infuser is nearly a replacement for meds specialization, as just a gadget itself...

Gadgets should never be close to specialization

[muted condor]

Making a support light build should be possible and usable but if it makes the other support option obsolete is when the problems start happening

[placid basalt]

And thats why i want med gun buff

I think just make it burnout later and it would be fine

Like 50 extra health

[muted condor]

I still think making heal beam a gadget and defib a spec would be a healthy change for medium

[placid basalt]

That sounds so weird in my head lol, i could never think of pressing my mouse button instead of 4 for defib

[muted condor]

It would give medium another spec besides demat that is viable and make the heal beam a better pick

It would kill two birds with one stone

Three birds actually

[placid basalt]

Another issue, can wench get a hitbox nerf to make it more skillbased

[muted condor]

Would let them buff defib back up a bit without being broken

[placid basalt]

I literally be wenching people through roofs and walls because of how fat the hitbox is

[muted condor]

Funny enough it’s not the hitbox it’s the servers (why is every problem come back to the same exact thing?)

[placid basalt]

Wait fr? I thought the hitbox was just huge lol

[muted condor]

It lets you hit people you thought you missed

[placid basalt]

Shak wench feels like easy mode no skill involved

Dude i wish charge and slam would get a dmg buff already, its funny as hell and i wanna see a different heavy spec already

[muted condor]

Dash, demat, winch, and the servers are the cause of literally every problem

[placid basalt]

My friend uses goo gun but it doesnt do much once we play against rubies

[placid basalt]

And they refuse to work on or fix the servers whatsoever and ignore their playerbase :)

[muted condor]

It’s actually crazy how you can trace everything back to one of those 4 90% of the time

[lusty garden]

ay how do you counter someone usin shield and baton

[placid basalt]

You dont

[muted condor]

Shield and baton

[spring grotto]

Distance n aim 🤪

[placid basalt]

You have to cheat to kill one or run it yourself

[spring grotto]

Just use a controller

[placid basalt]

Or yeah aim at the one pixel of their feet

[muted condor]

Jokes aside fire, explosives, swinging left, the entire heavy class, and not taking 1v1s

[placid basalt]

Idk how youre supposed to sidestep left a riot shield anyways if they can sprint at you but you have to walk backwards

And plus they can just turn right after every swing

Cant hurt them then

[indigo nexus]

It doesn’t seem like it does… it seems like it is probably better than it should be for ranked play (not the same thing as being stronger than healbeam) but it doesn’t seem so for other skill levels. I don’t see it appear much in lobbies at all, really.

[placid basalt]

Only the last part works, which i can never seem to get because im caught off gaurd and get no assistance from a teammate

[muted condor]

It doesn’t get used because light players can’t comprehend team play

[indigo nexus]

-_-

[placid basalt]

I know positioning is a skill on the shields part just like a sledge, but a sledge i can actually hurt

[muted condor]

The lights I get that do use it are absolute units tho

[placid basalt]

Support lights are a one in a thousand chance

[sudden pewter]

Second generation Embark employee

[muted condor]

The other 999 are running sniper and land two shots all round

[placid basalt]

Or run db and smoke thermal and end up 2-7 😭😭😭

How can you suck on db its literally free kills and team wipes

[muted condor]

Throwing smoke on you getting the entire team killed because the three enemy lights have thermal and you’re playing heavy

[placid basalt]

I know invis is the db meta but you can also do vanish bomb and dash and still be unkillable while one tapping the whole enemy team

[muted condor]

I actually start chimping out when I get double light team mates running smoke

[sudden pewter]

Dash is DB meta, Invis helps sure but it isn’t a popular choice

[placid basalt]

I just accept the loss on first engagement

[muted condor]

I do not understand why invis is so popular I almost never die to it

[placid basalt]

I die to it bc i only go against the good invis players

[lusty garden]

The real db meta is thermal dart glitch grenade and tunneling whoever you tag

[sudden pewter]

I’d assume it’s used more in lower ranks?

[muted condor]

I hear those mfs from 50m away

[placid basalt]

In tdm i see the dumbest invis players sprint at me like they arent the loudest mfs ever, but in ranked they stand still on some random lightpost and beam the shit out of me in 0.2 seconds before i can get one bullet shot

[muted condor]

I forgot tracking dart existed

[lusty garden]

Dw everyone does

[placid basalt]

Bring medium track dart back 🙏

[lusty garden]

Truth dart

[muted condor]

I run mini gun so I just cover the entire map in bullets and drop their cloak :)

[placid basalt]

I run pike and fcar :c

[sudden pewter]

Accuracy by volume 💪

[placid basalt]

Kill invis light challenge impossible

[muted condor]

💪

[lusty garden]

Grenade launcher

[sudden pewter]

Smartest #👂┇game-feedback post in months

[placid basalt]

My words exactly lol

[muted condor]

Die once to invis
Equip sensors and mini gun
Simple as

[placid basalt]

Oops i just got automodded mb

[muted condor]

I might not ever die to it because one of my main load outs has motion sensors in it

[placid basalt]

Heal beam needs love and H+ can go have a very nice time*

[lusty garden]

make H+ only heal yourself

[placid basalt]

I run skill weapons sry

[muted condor]

Technically both got nerfed but that is true

[lusty garden]

that way lights can truly be the lone wolf class

[placid basalt]

A light healing itself is the least helpful thing ever i think

Since it already heals to full after being 1 health in like 7 seconds

[lusty garden]

ok but it'd be a funny panic button

[muted condor]

Give heavy a teleportation gadget

[placid basalt]

True. Hit a mine and then get full health with H+, then hit another mine

[lusty garden]

Give heavy a sniper and im not joking

[placid basalt]

Best class in the game by miles

[placid basalt]

Deags exist

[muted condor]

Let me just appear in front of the enemy lights

Sniper on heavy seems like a bad idea

[sudden pewter]

Emitter got nerfed in the sense its placement is more like the turret, H+ got nerfed and it ultimately did nothing to curb the effectiveness of the gadget

[muted condor]

Not saying I wouldn’t have a lot of fun with a .50 cal that can put holes through walls

[placid basalt]

It did a lot actually, just not enough

It used to be able to let people do 750+ to you without you dying

[muted condor]

That 498 damage I did was post nerf 😭 🙏

[placid basalt]

Exactly

[muted condor]

Prime mini gun range on a still target that was stealing and I ran out of ammo before I could secure the kill

I’m just glad light players don’t run it

[sudden pewter]

A sniper on Heavy would remove one of the balancing factors on Heavy( low mobility) because the Heavy doesn’t need to move with a sniper

Lights have to reposition due to their poor survivability once caught, Heavies would thrive in such a situation with all the defensive utility

[restive plover]

buff my wepons and nerf the rest

[muted condor]

I think it would be unhealthy for the game buuuuuuuut…. It would be fun

[muted condor]

https://tenor.com/view/gigachad-chad-gif-20773266

[placid basalt]

Deags:

[sudden pewter]

Deags don’t have a x4 scope and require far more precision than a sniper would require to be effective at similar ranges

[muted condor]

Finally someone that isn’t afraid to just come out and say exactly what they want

[placid basalt]

Bring back old pike damage and ruin the game

So only i have fun

[muted condor]

Remove the light class

[placid basalt]

Honestly just dash bro, light without dash would actually require skill

[sudden pewter]

Game would be infinitely healthier if light was removed and I mean it unironically

[lusty garden]

if embark knew ball they'd make the heavy sniper an m82a2

[sudden pewter]

I don’t want light removed but many grievances with balance would be alleviated

[lyric mirage]

Removing dash would kill dagger and sword more than embark already has :(

[placid basalt]

Back to riot shield for a second tbh, i want it to be strong, just not annoying

[placid basalt]

Sword is perfectly fine and broken where its at lol

Dagger tho, its in a rough spot for good probably...

[lusty garden]

remove riot shield entirely and replace it with a sword/mace and smaller shield

[placid basalt]

Mace and smaller shield sounds cool asf actually

[lyric mirage]

It is far from good and the playstyle that everyone liked was publicly executed

[lusty garden]

if embark were to release an entirely medieval season id whale the game

[placid basalt]

It is still impossible to kill a sword player because bullets phase through them while dashing

[lyric mirage]

Now sword is just left click spam with some movement tech but atp just play db

[placid basalt]

Remove db from the game unironically

[lyric mirage]

They don’t? Unless I’ve missed something as a sword main, you can get hit while dashing

[sudden pewter]

Sword remains hypermobile Lights are just forced to commit more to dashing due to the aim clamp

Playstyle remains intact but the primary attack buff was very odd

[placid basalt]

I'll literally wench one and hipfire the shak directly into them and like 25% of the bullets just get ignored. And by like 5 shots theyve already slapped me 3/5 times

[lyric mirage]

It still has great movement but it’s just a lot less risk for decent reward to just left click

[outer osprey]

Well, officially done with World Tour. The riot shield is just so broken, it makes the game genuinely unenjoyable/unplayable. See y'all in a week when less people are running the riot shield.

[lyric mirage]

I think that’s just an aim issue ngl

[sudden pewter]

So your issue isn’t that the playstyle you enjoy is gone, but that it isn’t optimal anymore?

[placid basalt]

Perfectly tracing them when looking back at recordings so no

They just cease to exist, ESPECIALLY if you try m60

Just a ghost killing you

[placid basalt]

You'll have to wait a month until next season, bc its only gonna get worse

[sudden pewter]

I’d say that’s a server issue more than a problem with dash tbh

[lyric mirage]

Well yeah why play the weapon if the thing you want to do is so much worse. My problem is that they heavily hurt the old playstyle

[placid basalt]

Db lights and riot have been growing exponentially the past week and a half

[tired salmon]

What up with the flamethrower and riot shield meta in wt right now? It’s genuinely so annoying having a flamethrower on every team now

[placid basalt]

Its in ranked too

[tired salmon]

I don’t play ranked a lot but as a light Maine being yanked by winch and roasted even when I’m behind doors and walls makes me rage so hard lmao

[placid basalt]

Thank you embark

[sudden pewter]

Flamethrower is less than the ideal weapon for Heavy.

• Skill Issue
  As for the Riot Shield? The recent buffs apparently caused some shenanigans regarding the hit reg due to the shields existence and players are making full use of that while they can.
• Blame Embark

[placid basalt]

Yeah flame is pretty bad, just weird that its everywhere, plus ive been try to learn gas mines and its making it impossible

[tired salmon]

It kind of came out of nowhere these past 2 weeks I feel like, and yeah gas mine is so bad now because of it

[placid basalt]

Gas mines are meta rn and i wanna get good with them

[placid basalt]

Same as riot and db spam lol

[muted condor]

They should make shield a actual ballistic shield with a pistol:)

[sudden pewter]

The current WT Event is where you get more money based on the weapon used iirc. Flamethrower is a generally “meh” weapon and players are trying to maximize the elimination reward if I had to guess

[placid basalt]

Hello rainbow six siege

[sudden pewter]

They should give Heavy a tactical nuke

[placid basalt]

Thank god they nuked the money cl40 gives

[sudden pewter]

Lights on suicide watch

[placid basalt]

I remember last time it was 1k and it was full cl40 lobbies

[tired salmon]

Yeah it’s all just a ball of toxic play styles that just happen to work extremely well together when you get 1k for a riot shield kill which is ridiculous given how easy it is to use

[muted condor]

Duel blades and SA get the same amount of money lamo

[sudden pewter]

Shhhhhhhh you’re not allowed to say melee is easy

[placid basalt]

Unless its trip light

[sudden pewter]

Embark forgot the dual blades exist so they didn’t adjust the money it earns

[placid basalt]

Sa is insane considering its still viable in pro play lmao

[lyric mirage]

I mean it’s not easy

[placid basalt]

Riot is

[lyric mirage]

Sure you don’t have to aim but you also have to have really good positioning, especially with medium melee since it is so hard for them to close gaps

[muted condor]

It’s been one of the most viable weapons since launch

[placid basalt]

I have mad respect for sledge players, that shit is impossible

[muted condor]

I’m a spear player 😭

[placid basalt]

WHY

[lyric mirage]

If there’s a good dual blades player in existence they are a god

[muted condor]

Shitting and crying right now

[placid basalt]

90% chance to not hurt your enemies

[lyric mirage]

Dear god

[muted condor]

I KNOW

[placid basalt]

Spear is so strong against heavies tho

[muted condor]

I hate you embark

[tired salmon]

I saw a triple spear team in wt last night and they got DOGGED 😭

[placid basalt]

Lucky you, embark ignores their players so they'll never see you make fun of them

[placid basalt]

The one thing im happy about, is that triple riot is dogshit at least

[tired salmon]

Is there anything that penetrates riot shield besides flamethrower?

[placid basalt]

Double riot with a heavy though is an impossible matchup to beat

[muted condor]

I was genuinely chimping tf out

[placid basalt]

Cl40 and sledge and db light is just strong

But then you have to deal with losing against guns by the rest of the players

[lyric mirage]

CL40 is an unwinnable matchup if they don’t run at you

[placid basalt]

Literally the only way to hit diamond this season is the run DB or riot now

[plucky spade]

my man
Stop yapping

[tired salmon]

I’ve been a db main for a while now so I get how to play it I just like off meta weapons bc it’s more fun, but that means I get graped by meta teams, I also solo queue and my teammates usually have the iq of a steamed carrot

[sudden pewter]

Dual Blades you mean? Not Double Barrel?

[tired salmon]

I’m talkin double barrel but that makes more sense now that you say that

I don’t even have dual blades unlocked lol but I gotta say a good dual blade player is so annoying to play against

[sudden pewter]

Double barrel main 🤢

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1009830578545246213/1400932639439065118/1754078754982.gif

[tired salmon]

Don’t talk about my beloved like that 😫

[sudden pewter]

You main the Sexual Harassment 1900 and you expect mercy from your betters?

You are getting winched.

[tired salmon]

Unstoppable force (db light) meets immovable object (flame heavy)

[raw cave]

tipical melee experience since patch

[raw cave]

its bad on both sides since i dont know what i am blocking or not

[sudden pewter]

What on earth are you talking about

[thick holly]

Any other melee

[indigo nexus]

nothing really penetrates riot shield, flamethrower and melee included

but it doesn't work very well against them

[remote swan]

riot is pretty inconsistent with blocking a lot of melee weapons

[wary cliff]

buff fcar

[normal ice]

I'm convinced this game wasn't programmed. It was melded slowly in a vat of defective harddrives

Ngl, in every single match, even simply moving feels awful (especially with latency)... but I ain't seen that shit before

[muted condor]

It’s pretty common on the spear now

The hit detection on the spin is even worse

[indigo nexus]

I haven't noticed any left click issues but right click usually fails multiple times per match, if you don't avoid it for that specific reason.

[plucky spade]

If light's DB is fair, then sledge and spear should quick melee combo lights

[indigo nexus]

I really do not think spear needs to be any better vs lights. Not sure about sledge

[plucky spade]

Lights have DB

[indigo nexus]

Indeed?

[plucky spade]

They'll be fine, also lights can run away from heavies

[indigo nexus]

That's why melee heavies always run something specifically to help with that

[plucky spade]

Me when a dash is that specific thing's counter, launching you back that specific thing's range

[indigo nexus]

I do not know what you mean

[plucky spade]

The thing is winch, it's always winch

[indigo nexus]

lockbolt and goo gun?

[plucky spade]

I hear you about goo only, lockbolt just gets shot

[indigo nexus]

I don't think a dash actually takes you out of the spear's range in time after a winch also, but I'm not sure...

[indigo nexus]

well, let it get shot, still gives you a lot of ability to get close and them less ability to counter

[plucky spade]

well I was talking about before getting winched, also just dash through the man, what's he gonna do, expect it?

Besides the poor lights need their free out of jail cards

[indigo nexus]

melees do have lingering hitboxes.

you can attack and then turn around

[plucky spade]

anyways the point is remove DB and have sword take its place

[indigo nexus]

anyway, in practice I usually switch to spear when there are too many lights and it usually does especially well. Which is most of the reason I'm arguing this

DB vs spear is an interesting matchup because both players are simultaneously super vulnerable just fighting each other

[plucky spade]

You're playing against ass lights there's no way they are suffering like that

[indigo nexus]

Low-platinum grade lights

[plucky spade]

Holy guacamole

Are they mostly close range?

[indigo nexus]

no, wouldn't say so

[plucky spade]

Brotha that's skill issue to the max

[indigo nexus]

most players are not very diligent with their positioning and such

[muted condor]

The db kinda falls off in use the higher you go

[normal ice]

I just want Sword to be a functional weapon again

[plucky spade]

Every close quarters gun falls off the higher you go because people are afraid to bait their teammates

[muted condor]

It’s a one trick weapon so all the good players will start picking up weapons that are more versatile

[indigo nexus]

though a lot of lights, even (especially?) mechanically good ones often push spear users in scenarios where it just doesn't make sense. I don't know why, but if correctly anticipated they're dead before they can react.

[muted condor]

This is true

[plucky spade]

If you're talking about DB and sword, it really needs your team to commit to a 2v3 at the start, they cannot see you coming or you're dead
However what's the point of Sword if DB does the job and even better

[muted condor]

The db is good at killing a single enemy from a flank at point plank range, it is extremely good at that but it literally only does that

[plucky spade]

And the sword against a good team does what?
Deal 120 to 2 people max and die?

[normal ice]

Even Matter does Sword's job better than it

[plucky spade]

That's the problem

[muted condor]

I have never played the sword and fought two people that were actually able to kill me with it so I have no opinion on the weapon

[plucky spade]

Actually yeah, since we're at it
Why does matter get to be a better pre nerf model but when it comes to model, everybody rees?

[normal ice]

Well, Model is for Medium, not Light. But I personally would like it to have a small damage buff

[muted condor]

The model would be good if the reload wasn’t ass

[plucky spade]

Still dont see no one crying about matter

[muted condor]

Same reason no one complains about the SA despite being the most powerfully heavy weapon since launch

[plucky spade]

Stupid fucking shit ngl

Hypocrisy to the max

[muted condor]

It doesn’t get used so no one realizes it’s good or asks for a nerf

Same reason no one cared about the cl40 until the cerb got nerfed

[plucky spade]

funny aint it

[indigo nexus]

It does interest me that matter was never that popular in spite of it being super similar to old model, but with a faster reload

[muted condor]

The cl40 had no changes between season 6 and 7 but it instantly went from being considered a shit weapon to needing a nerf over night

[plucky spade]

Ok I will have to admit, if light gets a model with a faster reload, it might be a bit underwhelming, but still

[normal ice]

And now Riot Shield is apparently meta-defining and beats every gun because it, uh, swings 10% faster?

[muted condor]

Slight range buff and is easier to hit with lol

[plucky spade]

I can't with gamers

[muted condor]

People want it nerfed now because they lowered its skill floor so it’s actually showing up in silver and gold

[indigo nexus]

I think a huge swathe of the playerbase have a tendency to heavily exaggerate the state of weapon balance.

[plucky spade]

Yep, and then the hivemind begins its journey

I should spend less time in the discord server and reddit, bad for blood pressure

[muted condor]

I made a guess what weapon they would witch hunt after the cl40 but I forgot what it was

[plucky spade]

After riot shield the next one will be dual blades trust, embark will make the deflect work better, bronzies will get domed by their own bullet and start crying

[muted condor]

They will increase the third strike rang damage and make deflect work

[plucky spade]

first strike should deal 110 total, it's hard to land both strikes

[muted condor]

There will be a crying and gnashing of teeth

[placid slate]

Just remove the third, quick melee fills in all the breakpoints it covers

[sudden pewter]

Pretty sure it was FCAR?

Some medium weapon, vaguely remember the conversation

[rich dragon]

hi

[muted condor]

I wouldn’t have said fcar because it’s a AR

[sudden pewter]

Yeah it’s a basic AR and the cries for nerfs don’t follow logic

If it got popular again The lights would absolutely cry for it to be Nerfed

[normal ice]

As everyone knows, every single full-auto gun in the game has the highest skill floor and ceiling in the game, and they never deserve any nerfs unless they're doing 25 damage a bullet. 😋

[obsidian nexus]

light class has too much going for it, this class single handedly ruined the game for so many casual players. a fast moving target thats 12 pixels long and thats dashing, invis, infini-ammo, instakilling. aint fun to play against for the majority of the playerbase

[dim flume]

People will say skill issue to that but I believe the game is healthier when light is the least popular class

dash is problematic and unfun to play against (same way nobody ever enjoyed playing against genji in overwatch and the devs regretted their mistake)

and dematerializer dilutes the essence of the finals and counteracts too many mechanics and gadgets for it to remain as is

[clear rivet]

thats medium

[dim flume]

no no demat is a light spec know your place I've been here since playtest 0

[clear rivet]

sorry

[soft berry]

It turns mediums into lights

[tidal urchin]

fix the riot shield omg.. thought this was a fps game

last 2 games ive played in world tour has been a mele game

[next stump]

anyone go crazy with reshaper?

[thick holly]

Riot shield has remained almost exactly the same since season 1 lol

[vocal saddle]

I wanna send it as soon as I am able to tweak some of the wording and structure of it, but I made a literal 4 page review on how to buff the dual blades. I have played it for so long that I'm level 10 on them

[stoic garden]

prepare for it to be ignored by embark

[tidal urchin]

false.. they updated the mele for last update

[thick holly]

That's only damage, not mechanics

[vocal saddle]

I'm tempted to ping lol

[thick holly]

all the major changes for riot shield has been damage wise

[vocal saddle]

My main want for the dual blades is to have that last X swing be at the front of the combo

That way you get rewarded for sneaking up on someone

[muted condor]

Fellow duel blades brother 🤝

[boreal laurel]

Me! I love that gadget, so fun to grief turrets 😎

[vocal saddle]

Yes! 🤝
Us rare specimens are still out there 😎

[muted condor]

I main the spear but the duel blades are a close second

[vocal saddle]

I'm level 10 on dual blades and on my way to getting them maxed

[void ice]

Is it really that difficult to have at least average mechanical skill?

[plucky spade]

Codbrain has to relive their ptsd from mw2 shield except it's worse here

[plucky spade]

If turret was buffed data reshaper would get buffed too

[humble nacelle]

I kinda would like a ray gun skin for the ak-m

I would also love more body shapes for the medium and light class like they have for the heavy i know it makes sense for the heavy but i would still like it for the medium and light

[slender bear]

At this rate I don't care if they take the multihit off of sword as long as they do the same for spear.

[rapid glade]

Nerf riot shield

[shell sonnet]

Why does everyone seem so obsessed with the literal definition of fps, when its pretty clear other things can join the roster

By that logic, grenades etc would be excluded too

[weak kernel]

i don't think that's ever not been the case, is the thing. light was popular and considered strong by casuals even when old RPG that insta-swatted them existed.

I do to an extent feel like a lot of things in this game have gotten less fun to play casually especially for like, Heavy even if the balance has probably objectively gotten tighter, but Light's playstyle of needing to outposition and outmaneuver fits so nicely and feels so good to play in this game and I feel like it's a skill issue that has to be accepted to a degree. I don't think we should be jumping to gut anything the average shooter player struggles to deal with in a game where not being an average shooter is the appeal.

I could see a dash rework happening, I'll say. Same with Demat and Winch, although they all share the problem that all three of those specs have weapons that feel balanced around them. I'd really like to see a Demat rework because it completely kills fortification as a potential thing. Fighting mediums went from "they have shit breach, let's fortify as much as we can it'll piss them off" to "they have a medium, don't even bother fortifying" in like a day.

[shell sonnet]

What if demat was on heavy or light?
They have more breaching tools anyways, so its less appealing

On light specifically it would work very well with their get in get out playstyle

Personally rather light, because heavy cheesing survival might be a bit more annoying, since light is more likely to just barely get out anyways and gains less from survival

[weak kernel]

i feel like if light should have anything like that it should be something like a grenade launcher gadget that gives you an instant breach with one charge, so you can blow a wall down and immediately go in, kinda like a mini-RPG that's no good for combat. Even that I think would plausibly be a little too annoying if demat was gone. I don't know if I think anyone should have demat's kind of breach in this game

[shell sonnet]

I think demat feels really nice, and im not really annoyed at it most of the time
But sometimes someone is barely dead, insta demats and just runs for 20 second or escapes using jumppad, which i find annoying

I wouldnt mind a rework, but i havent really seen any ideas floating around

[plucky spade]

So better thermal bore

[weak kernel]

shorter range with one charge at a time so light can't really deal with suspended platforms and without the QoL of burning gas and goo but in a lot of ways yes lol, but I only really thought of it because medium having better mobility and dive indoors seemed kinda dumb

[shell sonnet]

Kinda
Would compete too much
And part of what makes demat good is bring able to rematetialize

[plucky spade]

Reduce demat charges to 2

There's your solution, and if need be
Decrease the recharge rate by a bit

[tired fractal]

probably just because of risk + reward

[livid cloud]

the medium's shield should make it break for a certain amount of time, it can hold up to an RPG and the 3 firing nerfs, what should not be nerfed and what they should nerf, they do not do is a riot shield, not a bunker so that it cannot be destroyed

[tired fractal]

not a good idea, riot is already quite underpowered in comparison to other weapons

[hexed marsh]

bring back sword movement

[placid slate]

You will fall asleep spamming m1 and you will like it

[dim flume]

I think we mostly agree, yes
My biggest gripe is definitely demat for exactly the reason you said, this specialization has been such a detriment to the creativity in the game that I just wish they had never added it

I completely agree with light needing to out position and outmanoeuver and that's precisely where I feel like dash is a problematic crutch. I believe it also participates in encouraging a meta around automatic weapons

I don't know how they could rework it but I really hope they do

To be honest I think demat participates in making the game confusing and a bit boring to watch too, it worries me for the tournament they're organising. Shouldn't the game be about clever plays and strategizing around destruction, not just no clipping around? I didn't even say anything about the awful one way visibility of dematerialized walls, that stuff is a desk slammer

[shell sonnet]

speaking of aweful visibility on demat walls
what if you couldnt see through it at all?

so you can get into a heavily fortified position easily, but you cant shoot from behind the cover of the partially existent wall, and need to risk more by getting closer
in ranked specifically i could imagine the focus fire you'd receive could make it a choice to consider more

not a solution to the actual problem, but might help

thoughts?

[dim flume]

it would be an improvement but I still see that as a bandaid with everything else it does

I am just hoping embark follows through on what they said in that stream, making very wide and deep changes to the game to shake up the meta, and that deleting dematerializer in its current form is a part of it

But the mere mention of nerfing it gets people all hands up in the sky

"embark nerfs everything fun!!!!"

it was also fun to abuse recon senses back in beta and season 1

[storm hedge]

Are people seriously complaining about demat now? When we have things like the double barrel…

[shell sonnet]

who said db is fine?

[weak kernel]

double barrel's impact on the meta relative to demat makes the double barrel look like dual blades

demat is fun to use like any good mobility but I've thought it was annoying how it just completely steps over the destruction mechanics of the game from day 1

[restive plover]

Double barrel is fine.

[storm hedge]

Then cry about it. Demat is not the problem

[bleak radish]

love all thje gadgets

[weak kernel]

and of course a b-tier light weapon is

[storm hedge]

Your gold 4 is showing

[normal ice]

my guy, it doesn't take a Bronze 4 to tell you Demat is the most impactful Specialization in the game

every team composition needs a form of breaching to be viable, and Demat isn't just demolition -- it's even better

in fact, it can even act as anti-demolition

NOTHING else in the game can provide (or counteract) the utility Demat gives you

[weak kernel]

if i were bad i actually would be complaining about the double barrel, lol

[storm hedge]

And? It’s working exactly how it’s supposed to.

[normal ice]

If your idea of balance is that Demat is "supposed to" be meta, then sure. I guess it's fine if one Medium Specialization alone is bordering on must-pick for your team to win as a whole while the other two choices are redundant at best or completely useless at worst.

[weak kernel]

i just liked it more when demolition and fortification was a thing people actually sometimes thought about and not completely irrelevant because the jack of all trades probably has noclip on

[brittle shuttle]

bru i had a game where 5 people where using riot shields it shoudl not give you 1k for WT

[boreal laurel]

I’m just sad that riot shield used to be a high-skill weapon that people respected you for using, kind of like bow or KS-23 or 93R. But now that everyone’s using it, everyone thinks it’s a lamer weapon

[placid slate]

Demat powercreeps several gadgets due to it being a straight up better version of destruction

[normal ice]

No, the best counter to Demat is Demat.

Demolition doesn't counter Demat's ability to create and close holes anywhere (that largely give skewed benefits to the user) -- demolition just makes permanent holes that can be used by either team (and are NOT as team-skewed as Demat's holes are).

You can create a permanent opening to the ceiling where a Demat Medium may be camping, but they're just going to move over a few feet and camp another part of the ceiling. They can always dive to another story or wall. You can't usually destroy the ENTIRE BUILDING, and even if you do, the random debris still favors Demat because Demat recharges much faster and can't hurt yourself when compared to most demolition/debris clearing.

[weak kernel]

also part of the reason you might fortify is to try to force close range encounters and leveling the building and making tons of new sightlines doesn't exactly address that problem

[indigo nexus]

Well, it's a lot more "meta" than the db...

[fallen forum]

What's the best melee weapon in the game so far according to people? What's the funnest?

[indigo nexus]

I'm not sure, honestly... some people would say riot shield, and the latter is quite variable

personally I like spear but I can't really say why.

[fallen forum]

Spear looks fun, I saw a heavy use it to demolish a team. That AOE attack is terrifying.

[indigo nexus]

when it actually registers, yeah...

good for killing unwise lights who believe they can push you due to a dps advantage or whatever

[fallen forum]

The riot shield looks interesting. I've had a few run ins with riot shield players and it can be pretty annoying trying to stop em when they have an invulnerable shield they have raised.

[tulip jolt]

nerf doble barrel

[indigo nexus]

it's never really that invulnerable but a lot of players seem to not put in any thought when trying to fight against it

[fallen forum]

Nah, from the time I've played so far, which I know isn't much, throwing knives are OP.

[fallen forum]

True, one of them I just shot his ankles into oblivion.

[indigo nexus]

very swift with a bit of correct anticipation

[tulip jolt]

nerf that shit too

[indigo nexus]

They're ok but really only a small number of players use them well

[raw cave]

sword, sledge

[compact tundra]

I think throwing knives are both strong and boring. I wouldn't say there OP due to how rare they are, but they do 1 shot (technically 2 shot) on head. Which as a sword player is very frustrating, especially now that I'm locked into lunging in a perfectly straight line. But I also just hate how boring their alt fire is. You just charge and throw a shot. I think they need a more interesting alt fire and maybe to lose headshots with a body shot buff, but I also don't like when games let a lot of weapons head shot, I feel like that should be reserved for only certain weapons.

[compact tundra]

Eh, new sword is good but I wouldn't say it's great. Works really well on a support light but isn't great for head on fights anymore.

[placid slate]

spear is goated in my very biased opinion, knowledge gap between new and seasoned spears is pretty large tho

[compact tundra]

EDIT:
This rework is wrong, for some reason I convinced myself QM was 60 and not 40

I think the double barrel should be rebalanced to have a bit smaller of a spread, to make meat shotting a bit easier. then maybe have the damage fall off start at about 8 meters to prevent it from working a mid range, and then have its full meat shot damage nerfed to deal 145. So now
Lights; 1 shot + Quick Melee
Mediums; 2 shot
Heavies; 2 shot + quick Melee

Still only requires 2 shots on everyone but now it doesn't one shot lights and requires a little extra boost against heavies, I think 2 shotting mediums is fair

[fallen forum]

Sledge is fun, slow but it hits hard, honestly seems better at destruction than killing players. It's good for breaking walls.

[plucky spade]

if sword is to exist, double barrel should not

[fallen forum]

My favorite melee weapon so far is the dual swords. It's awesome reflecting bullets back into players.

[sudden pewter]

Double Barrel shouldn’t exist*

At least not on Light 🤓

[compact tundra]

I think my rework would greatly help that match up, now both weapons require a 1 shot + quick Melee

[compact tundra]

They are sooooo fun, but they need to fix how consistent they are. Like they just did with riot shield

[fallen forum]

Yeah. It seems like sometimes they reflect and sometimes they don't.

[compact tundra]

But reflecting snipers is one of the most satisfying game experiences of my life. I reflect headshotted a dirty rat on top of the church one time and I genuinely about nutted.

[compact tundra]

They're just super inconsistent, like many things in this game. But it seems there looking to fix inconsistent weapons at the moment

[fallen forum]

That's good.

[fallen forum]

I'll have to try reflecting snipers more. That sounds fun as hell. Being able to reflect bullets or harmful stuff in games just always seems sick as heck and fun. (Cough Cough Ultrakill)

[normal ice]

No, no, no... Matter already has the same breakpoints against L and M. The only reason to use SH1900 anymore with that change would be deal more damage to Heavy, but 145+145+40 is not even lethal like you claim.

SH1900 needs at LEAST 155 damage to be worth using at all compared to Matter

[compact tundra]

Wait I'm genuinely stupid, for some reason I convinced myself that Melee was 60. I'm dumb, especially since I main sword and have a whole fucking paragraph on different sword combos all with the correct 40dmg Melee. Big oops on my part

[normal ice]

It's okay lol. Happens to us all

[compact tundra]

Also that makes this far more difficult, I do think the healthiest place for DB would be 1 shot + qm for light, 2 shot for medium, 2 shot + qm for heavy. But with 40dmg melees that's not possible

[normal ice]

Personally, I don't think it one-shotting Light is that big of a deal, especially if you're making it more difficult to do so by lowering the damage and forcing more pellets to be hit

[compact tundra]

It's a big problem with light melees which is a reason people don't like it. DB hard counters sword

[normal ice]

Well, lowering the damage across the pellets means the DB's range is nerfed

And honestly, Light is just a good counter to Sword in general -- not even specifically DB

[ripe whale]

double barrel isn’t really used in high ranks. Just get gud

[normal ice]

Why even bother getting into Sword's range when you can oneshot them from even longer distances with other weapons?

[compact tundra]

You are very right, but on its current form, a DB light that can aim is basically impossible to kill with sword if they see you

[normal ice]

I think DB could do with, like, 1 less damage per pellet or a slight spread increase, but otherwise I think it's okay

The MAIN thing that needs to be changed about it is its stupid pellet pattern

[compact tundra]

I think spread increased might be best to really force that breath smelling distance play style, and give the matter some room to breath

[compact tundra]

Agreed it's the dumbest pattern ever. Just make it a fucking rectangle, why is it this slanted rhombus like shape

[indigo nexus]

They reflect if the bullet hits the hitbox. If you are quite close to them, they may shoot under, over, to the sides of it etc depending on where exactly you are facing.
It's a cone which narrows as it gets to you.

[compact tundra]

They should really make like a tutorial video in the equipment menu explaining that. They do it for other weapons, I had no idea that Dual Blade required distance to work

[fallen forum]

So if you are close to them, you may not reflect as well?

[indigo nexus]

basically yes

[fallen forum]

Ok, thanks.

What are people's opinions on the Cerberus 12 gauge for medium? While I think it's cool basically having a dragons breath shotgun. It does not do much damage and seems to take long to reload.

[compact tundra]

It's pretty good at breath smelling distance. Use it like the double barrel on light and it's pretty damn good, only problem is your medium and not light

[indigo nexus]

It kills enemies very fast.

You just need to be precise; it is not very forgiving

[fallen forum]

Ok, thanks.

[sudden pewter]

Called it

[compact tundra]

Fuck you, I think a spear throw would be a cool idea, but I also think the AOE should stay on spear that's like it's whole thing. It'd be a different weapon without it

[sudden pewter]

Rather than bastardizing a melee weapon just make javelins a new one.

[compact tundra]

But having a rat pegger on spear would be cool

[sudden pewter]

Giving melee weapons a ranged component has got to be one of the least creative ideas to balancing them. Especially since it doesn’t balance them, just adds more issues

[compact tundra]

But Im also biased since in my weapon rebalance manifesto I had the idea of having a thrown alt fire on spear so I'm kinda married to the idea

[sudden pewter]

I know

Your only saving grace is you haven’t put it in your name

Shoutout to the “flamethrower fireball” guy

[compact tundra]

It's more of giving spear, which before the Melee massacre was underperforming, a new tool to separate it from flamethrower and sledge, since it was being outcompeted by those two at the time

[sudden pewter]

Because the secondary spin and ramping damage combo isn’t enough?

[fallen forum]

What are people's opinions on the dagger?

[sudden pewter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1182330547234684989/1397081229911785552/kJXz8C18O6bQyrWiq_ZLcTUyDyU8Udwn3h2YsveA3.mp4?ex=6898d089&is=68977f09&hm=a01dbe76bcca87d6c9cc0cea26dd1522692b88dc91b873aa45941ec0e4de9963&

balace-wise it’s fine, but due to server performance and desync it’s very annoying to fight against

[compact tundra]

I also had that idea, but I don't really care enough about that spear idea to rename myself for it. Even flamethrower thermite ball which I like a lot isn't really worth its own name.

[compact tundra]

Not good enough, it should have 360 backstab capabilities

[compact tundra]

I think it's fine, maybe a little under powered. But dagger suffers from the same problem as the butterfly knife in TF2. Your camera is client side and your hit box is server side, so bullshit is bound to happen.

[fallen forum]

I see

[sudden pewter]

More server-side checks could alleviate the issue slightly but it’s a poorly designed weapon for the type of game The Finals is, and it’s on the most mobile archetype no less

I don’t want it removed, I don’t think many players do (at least unironically) but it’s frustrating to randomly die to a backstab when the light is in front of you

But that’s just a part of multiplayer online games tbh

[compact tundra]

I think for it to even work it'd have to be on light. Heavy ain't gonna get no backstabs, medium maybe but really it'd only even have a chance of being viable on light. And I agree it doesn't really fit the finals, tho I guess that's up to opinion since I think the same thing about turrets and sniper.

[sudden pewter]

Unironically it would make the most sense on Heavy. Low general mobility and not enough movement tech that Desync would be an issue. The other two archetypes outrun heavy 100% of the time so the backstab(punish) makes sense

Saying that; Heavy already has sledge and I don’t want dagger on Heavy.

I want fighting the dagger to not be a diceroll the majority of the time based on the Lights ping

[compact tundra]

But it would be so ass tho, it'd have to be a really funny weapon for anyone to use it that way. I think granting it rag dolls or something like that could be a very fun way to make fat spy work, not viable wise but entertainment wise.
But I get what you're saying about ping, but like I can't imagine trying to catch or strafe someone on heavy, that'd be so frustrating without a really good reward.

[sudden pewter]

Yes, desync affects things other than dagger. (I have been killed by guns behind walls before)
The difference is:

• Other melee weapons don’t instakill you
• If you’re dying to guns chances are you were in a bad position, doesn’t excuse the death but it’s more understandable

[compact tundra]

I agree, just dagger on heavy would be so damn hard to use. Now I will say tho i love dagger I am absolute duky with it, so I'm not the best source on how it'd fair on an even harder to use class.

[sudden pewter]

If the dagger was on Heavy at launch the weapon would be significantly less frustrating to fight. Unfortunately for all involved it went to Light

Dagger was always about fun not effectiveness. If Lights want to be getting kills they’d equip the double barrel.

[opal cedar]

Why all the class didn't have one weapon of each category, let me explain, the medium have a sniper, the light have a sniper, why not the heavy, the light have machine gun, the heavy have machine gun, why not the medium.

[compact tundra]

Fair but dagger is so much more fun, which I guess is your point. But putting it on heavy might actually put it into a similar tier as the old 93R, probably not as bad since it'd 1 shot everyone, but still probably would be for laughs and nothing else. But to argue for you, the triple stack heavy dagger would be amazing and I kinda want it on heavy for that reason alone

[compact tundra]

That would break the game and the restrictions that limit each class

[sudden pewter]

Because some weapon archetypes don’t make sense for some classes.

Light has a sniper because once they’re located, their low healthpool forces them to relocate to a new area.

If Heavy had a sniper, they could fortify the area and make themselves very difficult to push or move due to their defensive utilities.

Heavy gets LMG’s, Light doesn’t because they’re the most mobile and their weapons have the lowest TTK’s in the game. An LMG would remove the need to reload in most engagements and would make Lights even more annoying

Weapons we have available are (to varying degrees) made with consideration to the class they’re going to.

[compact tundra]

Heavy sniper would be fucking awful to fight. Light has SMG's not an actual minigun, and if light did have a minigun I would honestly foam at the mouth. And medium doesn't have a sniper, they have rifles, which are still good at sniping, but not the one shit kills a proper sniper is.

[sudden pewter]

I understand confusing the pike with a sniper as they both specialize at long ranges but the pike is not a sniper.

Heavy (for the reasons mentioned above) does not need a sniper.

Light does not need LMG’s or god forbid an MG.

[opal cedar]

Ok thanks you for your explanation

[sudden pewter]

👍

[bleak radish]

gadgets r great.

[compact tundra]

Bros tryin to level up

[bleak radish]

i am

[compact tundra]

The fuck, that was quick

[sudden pewter]

Just go to light hangout and say you don’t think winch is OP

[compact tundra]

Bro rage baiting an argument is actually a great leveling tool

Tell lights that the pike is fair and balanced, they'll actually have a stroke.

[sudden pewter]

“I don’t think the double barrel should 2 tap Heavy”

[stoic garden]

in fact, it should one tap

[compact tundra]

What would you guys think about removing headshots off of revolver, tightening the hip spread, and maybe buffing the body shots a bit. I really like quick draw revolver and I think I'd like that version more, plus I think it steps on repeaters and pikes toes a little much for it being so different design wise

[stoic garden]

not op, just severely janky and annoying to fight ❤️

[compact tundra]

Oh God we summoned them, we curled the monkeys paw

[sudden pewter]

The only jank I see on it is people not expecting the return pull

[stoic garden]

very rational response indeed

[sudden pewter]

I’ve seen some pretty wild desync with it though, which I understand being frustrated by

[sudden pewter]

I don’t think that’s wise. The revolvers power comes from its headshot damage. If you take that away it’s just a faster firing repeater with less ammo

[compact tundra]

I get that, I just don't like all the toe stepping with these weapons, and I just feel like revolver should be hop fired. Maybe we can buff the hip fire and keep headshots, I'm just not a big fan of headshots in general. Tho to be fair my favorite shooter of all time is Shadowrun 2007 and when I can blackmail my friends into playing we use a no snipers, no rifles rule.

[stoic garden]

also every single light would complain about being two tapped

[compact tundra]

Yea I get that, I just really wanna hip fire it

[sudden pewter]

Model exists

[compact tundra]

Booo, I wanna do it with revolver

[stoic garden]

i really like revolver's gimmick of being one of the fastest killing weapons if you tap heads ngl

[compact tundra]

Yea I just really want a quick draw revolver, maybe it work better as a separate weapon. Maybe even with an alt fire that lets you fan the hammer and dump bullets into someone.

[stoic garden]

embark would never do that

[sudden pewter]

Weapons that allow you to keep your mobility while pumping out insane damage have to be kept on a very tight leash

Movement is survivability in The Finals and accuracy while firing from the hip for everything but shotguns is generally lackluster outside CQC

[stoic garden]

s1 sa12 was a raging pitbull in an orphanage with no leash

☺️

[compact tundra]

I'm aware, I member the beta flamethrower

We learned our lesson.

But still, a lower damage fast firing revolver could be fun. Tight hip spread and a fanning alt fire that lets you dump like 3 bullets into someone could be cool.

[sudden pewter]

SA12 will never not be at least viable until Embark decides to cut its head off and send it for rabies testing

[turbid tide]

Listen I think it would be pretty cool if heavy got a Barret .50 cal next season.

[sudden pewter]

Why are so many whites adamant that Heavy needs a sniper

[turbid tide]

Because it'd be cool

[sudden pewter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/437863525965365249/1399490368285835475/mauzy.carrd.co_watermark_dupecut_20fps.gif

No regards for balance Ishallah. You will be stoned.

[turbid tide]

Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs first

[lapis field]

Medium need that f2000🥀

[turbid tide]

That would be pretty cool

[lapis field]

Coming from battlefield background this would be perfect ngl

[turbid tide]

It would make it medium 3rd full auto tho

[lapis field]

It needs it honestly

Could be 40 bullet mag for 19 damage 24 critical/headshot 2.4 reload speed good bull pup animations

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/take-this-rock-gif-9267856630793442480

[turbid tide]

Honestly I don't do good with specifics but it could maybe be a faster fire rate gun that could be close range

[lapis field]

That’s why I said such a low damage , would be faster than the akm

Or g36c or bizon

[compact tundra]

Big dog if you hit perfect head shots you could kill like 2.8 heavies with that clip. Just body shots does 760dmg. If that thing can dump people it'd be busted as fuck

[muted condor]

Do we really need more ARs

[compact tundra]

I think it's an SMG but could be wrong, either way it'd probably play like an SMG

Na I looked into it, it's an AR. But still it'd play like an SMG with that quick fire and fucking MASSIVE burst damage

[chrome ember]

finally someone who gets it

[spark igloo]

I think u can do that anywhere and get a reaction

[dusty reef]

Make it to where the light class utterly gutted of thermal and smoke.

[boreal laurel]

Conspiracy theory time: what if Embark is using this WT event thing to force people to play underused weapons so they can figure out what they want to nerf next? 🤔

[modest lynx]

Or just rebalancing in general

[sharp viper]

No, they need a railgun

But tbf, if Heavies ever going to get a sniper rifle, I doubt Embark will give them snipers with high DPS

[plucky spade]

I don't think heavy's character fits a sniper ngl.
Even med """""sniper"""" is a repurposed lh1, it doesn't reach sniper status

[plucky spade]

Bro invented discord racism

[versed ivy]

Is the pike underrated?

[torn finch]

I hate the new sword it's just a stick someone swings at you and runs around in circles while doing so

[indigo nexus]

It’s considered meta so I’d say no?

[mossy ibex]

The TTK of the riot shield is even shorter than that of the sledgehammer, and it can even block bullets. Might as well just remove the sledgehammer.

[indigo nexus]

They’re not on the same class, a direct comparison makes little sense

but that is not a generally accurate statement to make regardless, unless you assume the right click attack doesn’t exist

[placid slate]

It isn't tho

[verbal flower]

I like this games meta rn

[weak kernel]

"creating more sightlines to control" only is only helpful if you're using a strong ranged weapon and medium, the guy with demat, is the class that has the lion's share of the strong ranged weapons. before you could actually frustrate/counter a triple medium stack by fortifying because recon sense isn't all that useful if you can't successfully breach to take advantage of the info.

like, I can count on one hand the amount of times I've pre-emptively destroyed my own cover and concealment to stop someone from from dematting it to use as an angle later- part of the reason demat flanks and pushes are so strong is because they're instantly completely deleting the cover that you are obligated to use. You can't just not take cover, especially if you're running close range.

Like pre-demat there were layers to the destruction and fortification gameplay- goo could patch and wall off spaces, fire burned it, smoke stopped goo from being engulfed in flames. breaching tools like C4, RPG, and breaching charge can get you in, but APS can deny you. Sledge gives you unrestricted destruction at the cost of leaving you forced to fight at point blank.

demat just ignores all of that, at the moment there's little reason not to take it. Every medium (and there's going to be mediums in every match) can walk through walls. Nobody is denying that it's fun to use, but it completely contorts the game around it and not in a way that I feel is worth it.

[normal ice]

1. You're missing one of my key points. By creating more permanent sightlines with demolition for yourself, you're giving the enemy more sightlines, too. It's not always strictly beneficial for you to create holes. It doesn't "counter" Demat -- yes, you may be giving them a few less places to peak out from, but by sacrificing YOUR cover, too. By comparison, using Demat yourself doesn't have this issue.

2. Your example ignores that Demat has 3 charges, works instantly, is relatively quiet, and recharges quickly. Also, although it's universally useful, it's best used for defending a cashout, not stealing it.

3. I never said Demat discourages destruction or that it's uncharacteristic of the game... I just said it's usually superior to destruction, is meta, and deserves a slight nerf to lessen the need to rely on it.

Also, per your reply to mac: the enemy using your own Dematted walls is not always possible, especially if you just position better, and unless by happenstance they are preemptively staring at the wall you Demat, there is physically no way for an enemy to react to where you have Dematted and then shoot at you faster than it takes you the Dematter to spot and shoot someone.

[weak kernel]

it's really not that slow dude and "other people can use the holes you make too!" isn't a serious weakness considering the one way filter over the hole you make+that's a stronger weakness on actual demolition where patching the hole is something difficult to reliably do.

Like on one level, yeah, demat attempting to flank me compels me to reposition, typically by going down or preferably up a floor. That doesn't mean it "actually encourages destruction" when it largely nullifies and skips around the fortification minigame I mentioned that you seemingly just ignored. Comps don't need to take destruction when they have demat handling breach. No medium seriously takes their new breaching charge because they have demat, which does the job strictly better.

The problem is that it just does so much. It steps on the toes of tons of other specs, gadgets, and potential strategies, and IMO not in an interesting enough way to say well, it's okay that it's that versatile. It's a top tier chase tool. It's a top tier escape tool. It's a top tier flanking tool. It's great at stealing the cashbox. It's great at defending the cashbox.

If it had very direct points of counterplay like goo, another extremely versatile gadget, maybe it would be different- but it doesn't. maybe you can goo off the flank they've made. Maybe you can pre-emptively take the box to the bottom floor they can't just attempt to demat steal it, but the way cashbox defense is in this game this IMO encourages you to take ranged hitscan, something demat already does by allowing people to instantly generate lengthy sightlines on you.

[foggy ruin]

Hey what do yall think of a Medi gun buff for medium

[versed finch]

It's kind of needed to keep the healing gun competitive

Considering that that the H+ Infuser and Healing Emitter are just as powerful

[compact oak]

does anyone else think heavy should get a claymore

[foggy ruin]

yeah thats what i was thinking, I started playing light more bc med was getting boring for me, and the H+ is so much better fr

[versed finch]

I don't think the H+ Infuser or Healing Emitter should be more powerful than a specialization. I also don't think nerfing Healing Emitter and H+ Infuser is the answer. They just need to give Healing Beam a buff, giving it more health to give, and a slightly faster heal speed. The Healing Beam right now just feels like a weaker combination of the 2 healing gadgets. It does have the auto tracking beam so you can't miss, unlike the H+ Infuser, and it gives health faster than the Healing Emitter, but that's about where the good stuff stops. The Healing Emitter can hand out infinite health, and the H+ Infuser has infinite range and an insanely fast speed. Embark just needs to Buff the Healing Beam, if they want to keep it relevant.

[indigo nexus]

I’m ok with that, but just a small buff…

[versed finch]

I'm not saying anything insane, I'm just disappointed when my specilization gets beaten by a gadget

I would also like to see a long range option for heavy. The Deagles feel too inaccurate, the Lewis and M60's recoil makes to very difficult, along with their damage drop-off, the Minigun just can't reach that far and deal any damage, and I guess the KS-23 can work for now, but the accuracy drop-off when basically moving, along with the fact that it's projectile and has no scope makes it hard to use beyond 50m for me personally. I would just love to see a Hitscan weapon for heavy. I am basically willing to work with anything at this point.

[foggy ruin]

Yeah that was exactly the buff i was thinking of
also heavy .50 cal?

[normal ice]

heavy is designed to be restricted to short range

[weak kernel]

they can give heavy a long range weapon as a treat as long as it's a sort of clumsy gimmick that has to be specifically played around kinda like the minigun

[frank sorrel]

deagles
👁️ 👁️
👄

[versed finch]

I think that if they don't rework or buff both healing beam and guardian turret, they should give medium a new specialization. I hate playing medic, because most of the time, my teammates die 5 seconds after I heal them, and healing beam makes you sacrifice your life to heal someone else. Guardian Turret is counter by jumping over it, and I literally never use demat. I don't know what they could add, but giving players another choice would be nice, as mediums specializations are much weaker than heavy's and light's

[raw cave]

demat is actually really good, especially with other specs of med, but yeah, when gadget is better than spec - there's a problem

[plucky spade]

Demat just needs two charges and it's immediately better balanced

[raw cave]

then make dash also two

[raw cave]

and demat not the problem here, i think its ok as it is

[foggy ruin]

Ngl i dont think dash needs a nerf, I dont understand why people want it nerfed so much tbh.

[sudden pewter]

Dash and Demat have the same issue. They’re both so good they overshadow the other options. They aren’t OP, but why bring anything else?

[raw cave]

i just don't want for demat to be nerfed, so i typed something toxic

[foggy ruin]

pluh

[foggy ruin]

I use grap hook alot as light and i ussually use medi beam just bc i like support even if its not the best option (and also tf2 medi gun is funny)

[compact tundra]

I kinda hate the nerf mindset some people are in right now. Don't nerf dash and demat. Buff others, come up with concepts for specs that can compete, make other options not just gut what people enjoy using in this game.

[foggy ruin]

Yeah thats acctually a w take

[compact tundra]

Also Moist critical made a video on the finals last night and within the first 20 minutes it had like 165k views, so we are probably about to see a fucking ocean of whites. Now that is a good thing, but I'm just prepared for the possibility of like 3 weeks of #👂┇game-feedback takes in this chat

[foggy ruin]

ngl i look in the game feedback when i want to be entertained, its really friggin funny most of the time (altho there are some good takes in there sometimes)

[compact tundra]

#👂┇game-feedback is basically a slur in this discord. There are some good takes there but it's a sea of brainrot

[foggy ruin]

fr, its mostly people getting killed by a weapon and then going on there and just saying
Nerf so and so weapon

[compact tundra]

Bruh half the time they don't even bother with nerf ideas, they just say delete it. The amount of times I've seen delete sword or delete CL-40, even in there current state, actually makes my mind go numb

[versed finch]

Most weapons that have been asked to be nerfed don't need to be nerfed, their competitors need to be buffed

When the competition can't keep up with a weapon, it should be a sign that other weapons should be adjusted so they can compete

[compact tundra]

Hell I don't even think some of them fall into that category, medium has alot of good options, same with light. The AR's are fine, not great but fine. the repeater, pike, and revolver, are all great l. Cerberus and model are good if played right. And then every weapon on light besides sword and dagger is fucking great. It's really just people not knowing how to fight these weapons with different play styles that don't involve just click and mow down.

Cl-40 and sword are a positioning check, not a movement or cover check. And people can't learn how to position

[versed finch]

Definitely. I personally don't like playing the model, but I don't scream for it to be buffed immediately. I think people should just play the weapons they're better at more

[sudden pewter]

Not disagreeing with the mentality but if the healbeam gets buffed a bit it’ll be OP

[versed finch]

It also is annoying when people say some weapons are underpowered, when they use them wrong. The Cerberus isn't meant to be used like a sniper

[compact tundra]

Model probably don't need no buff, haven't played it much since season 5 but I don't think they've changed it since it's nerf in season 4, and it's been fine since. It's just a shotgun that's medium ranged rather than breath smelling ranged like every other shotgun. It requires a different playstyle so people don't play it as much now that it's not super meta

[compact tundra]

Oh I agree, heal beam and turret are in weird spots where they suck to fight if there good

I honestly think they just might need the nullifier treatment, or maybe just some kinda lighter rework. Either way straight buffing would probably suck

[compact tundra]

I agree, as a sword light I can tell you that thing fucking meat shots. It's mean as hell if you use it right

[versed finch]

The Nullifier rework was great. I think Embark definitely has the capability to fix the healing beam and guardian turret, so if they decide to do so, I'll be interested in the results

[compact tundra]

I actually had a TDM game the other day where I ended up dropping a 30 bomb on sword. So on the 3rd round half there team switched to Cerberus, hard countered my ass.

So I switched to "Dagger"

[sudden pewter]

Turret could definitely use buffs, lights will adapt or be filtered

[compact tundra]

I agree but if it's too good it gets oppressive. I don't really like turrets in games that aren't TF2 because they all miss what made their sentry work, the fact that it has to be maintained.

[royal thicket]

Facts. Right now, you can't even maintain your turrets. Yes. you can pick them up and place them down again, but that's not maintaining, that's just resetting

[weak kernel]

tbh i still hate sentries in TF2, engies are the fun police

oh you thought you were going to play something other than soldier or demo? not 2day

[foggy ruin]

I think it would be cool if there were different modes for the turret so you could interact with it in different situations, it starts out just on the default one that is the one we have right not, we could just call this guard mode or whatever, then we could press the spec button to switch to an auto fire mode, it fires directly in the place you had set it, but at a lower rate to make it not as powerful, other stuff like that yk (the reason i didnt post this in game feedback is bc im still on time lmao)

[foggy ruin]

also i only play medic, no matter what

[compact tundra]

I mean yes turtling is too viable, but thats honestly a dispenser problem, not a sentry problem. And most classes without explosives really shouldn't be pushing where sentries are anyways. Besides heavies but heavies certainly have ways of dealing with sentries.

[sudden pewter]

Engineers are designed to slow the game. I hate comparing TF2 to The Finals due to them being completely different in the way they’re supposed to work but it’s very easy to point out what does/doesn’t work

[compact tundra]

You have a good point, but turrets on the finals are literally just place and forget, hell I main turret when on medium and half the time I end up even forgetting to pick it up. I think on the finals turrets should be more of an area to retreat to rather than a tool for fights. I get having maintained turrets in this game wouldn't really work but that's honestly a reason they shouldn't have been added in the first place. Tho there's not much that can be done about that now

[sudden pewter]

It’s place & forget because they’re easily dealt with most of the time. Goo, glitch, melee weapons knock them off their perch, avoiding LoS, shooting them, etc.

If we want Terry to be competitive as a specialization it’ll probably need a rework tbh

[compact tundra]

But that's also why there weak rn

[compact tundra]

I agree, it's why I said give it a rework and maybe the nullifier treatment

[grave narwhal]

I think medium needs a stun type gadget or ability, or just to get glitch grenades. Using melee, or even guns on medium is frustrating because heavy has lock bolt shields and winch, light has dash grapple and invisibility, but medium?… besides flashbangs or smoke (which both other classes have and hardly do the trick) medium is kind of stuck when it comes to an encounter against lights or heavies.

[compact tundra]

I think that's fine tho, medium is more team based and worse at 1v1's. I think if mediums had as many DM tools as lights and heavies they'd dominate the game again.

[sudden pewter]

Absolutely not.

[grave narwhal]

Fair, but I’m referring to melee more specifically, I think something needs to be done to help the dual blades and a nerf needs to happen the the shields hit box

[compact tundra]

I think melees not going through mesh now is dumb, and dual blades honestly just need the blocking hit boxes to make more sense. It's more of an understanding issue rather than them not working. But the dual blades also create another problem, they turn medium into a 1v1'er. Dual blades are countered by focus fire, so they work best when you single someone out and force them into a 1v1

I think they're good if you can get your team to take pressure off of you, but they are heavily countered by just being shot at from 2 angles

[grave narwhal]

I feel like the dual blades are weak in the current meta in general, did they get nerfed?

[sudden pewter]

No, desync issues have been rampant since S7 launch and have affected all melee weapons, but deflects have also been affected which is Dual Blades survival gimmick

[placid slate]

Yeah they caught a nerf in 7.6.0

[sudden pewter]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/291185557789343744/1133442719210033192/ezgif-2-3e88c53a56.gif

Did they really?

Yes. But also buffed.

I mean even the “nerf” was to make it more reliable

[placid slate]

Decreasing the inner width causes no regs if you hit an object

[sudden pewter]

Embark made the weapon worse by trying to fix an issue? Say it ain’t so!

[placid slate]

Fixed the imaginary issue of a melee with multihit hitting multiple things

[shell sonnet]

what could we do tho?

im trying to think of ways other games did it

tf2 with strong leveled sentries and mini sentries
gw has pre placed sentries, so that likely wouldnt work? but the concept of many low damage sentries that deal low chip damage, but SPECIFICALLY to an enemy on low hp to finish them off might be something
then there is bfn turret which recycles ammo and increases rof, tho i doubt that would go over well
no experience with OW, but maybe thats different?

[sudden pewter]

Just noticed the KS23 bullet points are significantly larger 🤡

Dunno if it’s a gag or not

[shell sonnet]

gw has pre placed sentries, so that likely wouldnt work? but the concept of many low damage sentries that deal low chip damage, but SPECIFICALLY to an enemy on low hp to finish them off might be something
like, it would specifically abuse weakpoints that are there for a reason
like how revolver barely doesnt 2-shot lights/1-shot to the head
might make it frustrating, but i dunno, is that an idea?

[sudden pewter]

Light breakpoints exist purely because lights whinge incessantly and you want a specialization to break the dam holding them back?

Frankly I’m all for it. Let them suffer.

[shell sonnet]

weeeeeell, theyre still part of the eco system, we kinda need players
wouldnt wanna drive others off

[placid slate]

I mean it's pretty obvious why breakpoints are the way they are, light would be abysmal dogshit if they were ignored entirely

[sudden pewter]

Not disagreeing

[placid slate]

Like revolver, there's a reason shit doesn't do 75 damage, 0.43 ttk would be bullshit

[sudden pewter]

Just pointing out Lights shit & piss everywhere when they get 1/2 tapped but it’s totally fine when they do the same to other archetypes

[placid slate]

Only real 1/2 tap issue would be double barrel, rets of the shot is fine because of downtime

[sudden pewter]

Tru

[placid slate]

Even then double barrel was ass when it couldn't crack more than 300 damage a mag

[sudden pewter]

Reload is long, as it should be

[placid slate]

Reload is the reason it 2 taps heavies

If it doesn't 2 tap, then the ttk goes to being worse than flamethrower

Needs some way to get a 3rd round without reloading through some kind of gimmick if they wanna drop the damage alone

[sudden pewter]

IMO I’d prefer all pellets + QM to kill Heavy

It’s weird to me that Medium/Heavy are both 2 tap

[shell sonnet]

same

[sudden pewter]

I don’t feel it would totally break the weapon given the size discrepancy between Lights & Heavies (Heavies are bigger targets and significantly less mobile)

[shell sonnet]

i know we get enough complaints that medium gets too few items
but what if turret got s light hp nerf or something and was turned into a gadget

its cost it too high for what little it does
but its too frustrating to a bunch of players to nerf
so reduce the cost by turning it a gadget
thoughts?

[sudden pewter]

I don’t feel turning it into a gadget is the play, especially when Medium only has 3 specs

[shell sonnet]

add a spec in return?
no idea what, but surely that can be done again

if possible id like it to stay a special, but i havent heard a suggestion that works

[shell sonnet]

wait, what other reasons do you see against it beyond the "would only have 2 specs" thing?

[sudden pewter]

Honestly? Not a lot. Aside from maybe the turret doing too much for a gadget 🤷‍♂️

Specializations are supposed to be something you can define a playstyle with, or be some integral component of how you play

[shell sonnet]

thats why im asking for further nerf
enough to be fit for a gadget

[sudden pewter]

If it gets nerfed more it’s useless. Not even worth a gadget slot

It definitely needs a rework because buffing it outright would bar lights from play until it’s dealt with.

[shell sonnet]

so its too much for a gadget
but nerfing it more makes it too weak, even for a gadget
so there must be a perfect middle area, right?

[sudden pewter]

Probably yeah, where it’s viable enough to not outright kill enemies but help when fighting them, react fast enough to threats without being what is essentially a 4th teammate, and have enough health to not be super annoying to target but enough to not be easily dealt with

Where that middle area is though? I don’t know. And clearly neither does Embark.

[shell sonnet]

we've had trial and error balancing before
just set the bar low so it doesnt get a "break the game week", and gradually buff up until its fine

[sudden pewter]

The problem with that is time. They’re only allowed to push patches out so fast (part of the issues with console is any update has to be vetted and approved)

[shell sonnet]

doesnt need to fullfil all of those at once tho
it could be in the extremes of those instead

maybe its lethal, but has really low hp and slow reaction time
or it has high hp and is fast, but has only barely enough damage to pressure to finish someone off

they could also work with reducing its range, making a slightly more deadly "dont get close"
tho this would have me worried about melee

[sudden pewter]

Haha man if only there was some sort of….testing branch….

[normal ice]

They can't even run production servers well. Ain't no way they're getting test servers lol

[grave narwhal]

They should add a high risk high reward type of long ranged weapon to heavy, like a 50bmg with really slow reload and fire rate

Make it look like a Barrett 50 cal or some type of Gauss rifle

Maybe another ability to light or medium that’s a kind of team support? Like a gas mask or force field armor that protects from fire/gas? the two classes both have one less main then heavy, I feel like it would balance it out a bit, especially with heavy gaining heals this season

You could give the armor to teammates and it would only last for a couple (like 5-15) seconds

[shell sonnet]

messes with ttk and htk
we just went through a rollercoaster because cl-40 couldnt 1 mag heavies if they didnt get full damage

[grave narwhal]

Not armor armor, I meant like fire and gas protection (the message above)

[sudden pewter]

Heavy doesn’t t need a sniper

[compact tundra]

So this is completely biased and only based on how I've personally played the turret most effectively. To me the turret is best suited to cover lesser used flanks and to make an area you can retreat to. So you can either bait people into to 1v2ing you and your sentry, or retreat there if you're losing a fight and have it protect you.

I think the turret should have a DPS of ~50.
-3 sec kill a light
-5 sec kill a medium
-7 sec kill a heavy
Probably like a 12-15M range to really focus on the retreat aspect since that would make it easier to chip down in bigger areas.
I think it should also heal in a 5M radius at the same rate as the heal barrel. So it's not much but a good boost to retreat to after a fight.
It should be visible through walls for all teammates
And lastly maybe have it ping enemies it's shooting at, so you can see where they are.

Alternatively if we want the sentry to have a similar role to the one it does now I think 70dmg a second could work well but it may be way too powerful
-2.2sec to kill a light
-3.6sec to kill a medium
-5sec to kill a heavy
This makes turrets a force to be recorded with while not killing anyone before they can react. If we do this tho then cloaking as a light should make the turret stop shooting at you so cloak lights don't get fucked and all lights can run vanish if they want extra survivability against turrets.
Also it should probably have a longer deploy time so you can't jump people with the turret

Don't know how well these would go over and they would need heavy play testing but these are the ideas I had

[muted condor]

We need more weird weapons you don’t see as primaries in other games, this is the fucking Finals not COD so why do people want boring snipers, AR, and smgs when we already have mini guns, swords, and grenade launchers? If we get any more weapons they shouldn’t be basic stuff

[sudden pewter]

Embark seems hesitant to lean into the quirky VR side of the aesthetic which I partially understand because it’s a super slippery slope

[compact tundra]

Pike, not the gun, and actual pike. Fucking 15 meter Melee baby

[muted condor]

That would be funny

[sudden pewter]

We have gundam cosmetics and it’ll only take so long before we get full-body furry cosmetics because “It’s a literal virtual avatar”

[compact tundra]

It would actually be about 4-5 meters since pikes were 12-16 feet

[muted condor]

Give me a literal cannon as a weapon

[sudden pewter]

I would love to see more pirate stuff

[muted condor]

The church cannon from blood born

[sudden pewter]

Since we’re getting Viking cosmetics in the future I’d hope we see more historical cosmetics, perhaps European Medieval armor or Spanish stuff

[muted condor]

That would be a peak heavy weapon

[sudden pewter]

I would unironically love a Capirote or a Kettle Helm

[grave narwhal]

Maybe like a mythic skin for the rpg?

[muted condor]

If we do get a historical western season a cannon for heavy and javelins/throwing axes for medium would be sick

[muted condor]

Naw a primary weapon

[sudden pewter]

Calling it now, the Viking cosmetics will have a shield on the back for upper body

[compact tundra]

The maps server has been rallying behind a medieval themed season or at minimum a medieval map. They have a guy gathering "signatures" just to count how many people want it, I was 216 I believe. We should join together

[sudden pewter]

I’d rather die than join such a Reddit coded movement

[compact tundra]

Fuck the reddit, let's rally the discord behind our medival plans

[grave narwhal]

They should make it like a slow reload mix between the gernade launcher and the KS shotgun

[sudden pewter]

Wish you guys the best but I have principals I stand behind

[muted condor]

We already have a shit load of eastern cosmetics so I love medieval stuff

[sudden pewter]

Someone remove this man from the kitchen lest he burn water

[compact tundra]

I'm not on the reddit, I only care about the discord guys

[grave narwhal]

It wasn’t my idea

[sudden pewter]

We have that Ivada helm which seems to be European Medieval inspired but it’s attached to a Zoro-esque outfit which doesn’t fit

[muted condor]

We only have one knight cosmetic 😭

[sudden pewter]

Yeah that’s the one

[compact tundra]

We also have that one weird football skin with the medieval style mask

[muted condor]

It hardly matches anything too

[sudden pewter]

I think it’s technically a bassinet?

[muted condor]

I’m not sure

[sudden pewter]

They have the opportunity to do such cool things with the VR excuse, futuristic knight armor and shit and it’s a shame they don’t take advantage of it

[grave narwhal]

Dude the amount of potential for a medieval season… just weapon skins alone.

[sudden pewter]

Give me tacticool-Knights with Kevlar plates and ammo holsters fuck it just go balls to the wall

[muted condor]

Actually give medium a gun Lance :)

[sudden pewter]

That helmet isn’t from that cosmetic set

[versed finch]

I think adding the M202 would be cool

[grave narwhal]

Absolute perfection

[muted condor]

We already have it as a skin sadly

[compact tundra]

Oh shit your right, I've ran that skin so long I actually forgot

[sudden pewter]

I’m always right 🤓

[compact tundra]

You sure are my big strong man

[muted condor]

Now what I would kill for above all else for them to add is servers that actually work

Now wouldn’t that be peak

[versed finch]

Season 8 revealed?

[grave narwhal]

What do you guys think they should make the fourth ability for medium and light be?

[muted condor]

Season 8 patch notes be like: “We care about melee and want it to be viable so we are lowering all melee damage by 50% and causing a movement penalty if you are wielding a melee weapon”

[grave narwhal]

Dual blade lore

[compact tundra]

Honestly got no clue, haven't even come up with any ideas for those, I should do that

[muted condor]

Actually they are making duel blades heal the enemy next patch

[grave narwhal]

I gave my suggestion about the fire/gas resistance armor

Maybe another ability to light or medium that’s a kind of team support? Like a gas mask or force field armor that protects from fire/gas? the two classes both have one less main then heavy, I feel like it would balance it out a bit, especially with heavy gaining heals this season(copied)

[muted condor]

Time stop for medium that temporarily freezes all projectiles that hit the feild

[versed finch]

"Dual Blades now damage the user when swinging"

[grave narwhal]

A bit too similar to demat, maybe make it a gadget instead? Like the grav trap

[compact tundra]

I think fucking with the ttk in this game is kinda a bad idea. I mean like if it's just fire/gas that could work but both fire and gas already aren't great, there more of a deterrence than anything

And it'd fuck flamethrower over, and he doesn't any more beatings

[grave narwhal]

The flamethrower is bad? Haven’t used it lately

[muted condor]

Fuck flamethrower all my dual blade homies hate flamethrower

[lyric nebula]

Pls fix the riot shield

[grave narwhal]

The flamethrower doesn’t have any counters.

[muted condor]

Leave riot shield until dagger face stabs are fixed :)

[grave narwhal]

You mean nerf, right?

[versed finch]

Does smoke not counter flamethrower?

[lyric nebula]

U can counter flamethrower, just keep distance

[grave narwhal]

No

[muted condor]

Smokes, range, and literally 90% of the weapons in the game

[lyric nebula]

Yea that's exactly what I mean

[versed finch]

Still, if you're more than 10 meters away, flame can't do anything, and considering heavy takes 30 years to move from one side of the map to the other, I'd say it's fine

[muted condor]

The only weapons that really struggle against flamethrower are dual blades, spear, and some of the shotguns

[sudden pewter]

Smoke

[muted condor]

But dual blades and spear struggle against everything for different reasons

[versed finch]

Dual Blades counters itself at this point. It's in desperate need of a buff

[grave narwhal]

Smoke doesn’t stop flamethrowers last I checked

[sudden pewter]

It stops you from burning

[muted condor]

That’s like 1/3 of the flamethrowers damage

[sudden pewter]

Correct

[muted condor]

And it already has shit TTK

[sudden pewter]

So true 💅

[muted condor]

I think it’s in a good spot tho

[sudden pewter]

It’s not a terrible weapon at all

[grave narwhal]

I’m kind of a medium only player so I can’t really talk 😭

[muted condor]

It’s a easy to use weapon that helps players with bad aim keep up without being oppressive or out performing weapons that require more skill

[sudden pewter]

Is it the best option for Heavy? No.
Is it a bad weapon? No.

[versed finch]

Really, most of heavy's weapons do what they're supposed to

[grave narwhal]

No trust me, I’ve used it, just not lately.

[sudden pewter]

NO! NO! NO! IT NEEDS TO SHOOT FIREBALLS OR THROW GASOLINE OR WHATEVER

[versed finch]

I can't say I love all of them, but none of them are just outright bad

[muted condor]

Except the spear (please embark save my child the spear)

[versed finch]

Dual Blades are gonna be buffed before spear at this point

Sledge, Riot, Sword, and Dagger are usable. Dual Blades and Spear...

[muted condor]

Me when hit detection

[grave narwhal]

Stupid idea- a tech/glitch themed pistol for medium that applies a random affect with each bullet, (pure rng) for example gas clouds fire ticks emp, a goo blob instead of bullets, or if you’re lucky exploding rounds

[muted condor]

Dagger isn’t really usable tbh

[versed finch]

Only if everyone is sitting still and is blind

[grave narwhal]

Like the chaos pistol from cyberpunk 2077 (look it up)

[versed finch]

Sword still cooks. Riot can be dangerous in specific circumstances, and sledge is light's worst nightmare especially when paired with winch

[muted condor]

And spear would be perfect if hit detection wasn’t so bad and they made spin cancel not require a emot

[grave narwhal]

Lowkey cooked with that, but it would probably insanely complicated to add probably idk

[versed finch]

My luck would have every bullet heal the opponent and damage me

[sudden pewter]

STOP IM BEGGING

https://tenor.com/view/cat-shoo-away-gif-13653609800890535042

[grave narwhal]

How crazy did they think Thomas Edison was when he went through countless days and resources making the first lightbulb?

[sudden pewter]

You don’t need to be a cook to know when food tastes bad. And I’m telling you right now. This is an undercooked. It’s outright raw. It’s still mooing.

[muted condor]

Thomas Edison stole the light bulb so…

[grave narwhal]

And I got the idea from cyberpunk 2077. Your point?

[compact tundra]

Caught between two worlds, I have many an hour on both Flame thrower and dual blades.

[muted condor]

Mooing and shitting as we speak

[grave narwhal]

Twin what did I do😭 I’m trying to be creative

[compact tundra]

Great ltm, awful weapon. That would be so ass to fight

[muted condor]

We will get a dual blades rework in season 17 i swear 😭 🙏

[compact tundra]

Your optimism is inspiring

[grave narwhal]

I feel like if the pistol also had a chance to heal your opponent it could be balanced

[wheat jetty]

None of my guns do a decend amount of damage annymore ...nerfed to death

[muted condor]

https://tenor.com/view/evil-superman-gif-632723218522114279

[compact tundra]

If my stupid ass light teammate could heal the enemy I would actually beat him with a studded belt

[muted condor]

RNG in a game like the finals will always ether completely suck or be dog shit to fight

[sudden pewter]

Permanently barred from the kitchen.

[grave narwhal]

Strangle your light teammate through the screen update

[wheat jetty]

Hmm maybe water pistols ..would be a better choice

[sudden pewter]

Summer Update & we finally get swimsuits and bare feet

[wheat jetty]

Potatoe gun

[grave narwhal]

I did say the pistol was a stupid joke idea in the first place. You bolded those letters. And I’m banned?

[compact tundra]

That wouldn't hurt enough

[sudden pewter]

You immediately followed up with “lowkey cooked with that”

Which you most certainly did not

[muted condor]

Which guns?

[grave narwhal]

You most certainly did not deny the fact you bolded, and I quote “bare feet”

[wheat jetty]

M11 ak47 pistol cant hit fore aimed shit either ...

[grave narwhal]

[sudden pewter]

What

[wheat jetty]

Shoot into a condenced group of 4 people aimed shot not one hit full ammoclip

[muted condor]

Tf is the AK47 pistol

[grave narwhal]

Nama tama most likely does NOT approve😭

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/skill-issue-the-finals-skill-issue-gif-9109889277599560089

[muted condor]

I’m confused is this person saying the M11, AKM, and silenced people have bad damage?

[sudden pewter]

If you can’t hit anyone while ADSing I firmly suggest you go to the training room and shoot at bots for 5 minutes

[compact tundra]

You mean like 2 of the better guns in the game, and the AK isn't terrible either, it's actually pretty good if you can control the recoil

[grave narwhal]

Flamethrower main lore:

[sudden pewter]

AKM has recoil yes but controlling that is part of the skill curve

As for the M11? Why are you ADSING? Hipfire that shii dawg

[magic falcon]

Hey what's do you guys think about giving medium an axes

[uncut zephyr]

battle axe

[magic falcon]

Or a one handed weapon

[wheat jetty]

K

[compact tundra]

Melee on medium doesn't work terribly well since they lack movement and health. And Melee is usually more of a 1v1 tool and mediums kinda lack in that department. They don't have glitch, shield, dome, winch, goo gun, ect....

Riot shield and dual blades work because they give the medium extra survivability

[muted condor]

Dual blades work? 🤨

[foggy ruin]

ngl i kinda wish i coul do that, but my muscle memory is too built in for every other weapon that requires ads

[magic falcon]

I see were you a coming from but i would like to see medium have a one handed weapon

[compact tundra]

I added an extra message there

[muted condor]

Remove medium from the game ong 🗣️ 🔥 🔥 🔥

[sudden pewter]

Play KS-23 or SA and you will break the cycle

[magic falcon]

Why

[foggy ruin]

Hell nah

[compact tundra]

I've found the model really helped me learn to hip fire

[muted condor]

Because I play heavy and don’t like fighting triple medium teams :)

[foggy ruin]

Medium and light are my fav to play

[grave narwhal]

Discord users when someone says something satirical

[foggy ruin]

Does anyone lmao

[muted condor]

Remove light as well

[compact tundra]

Wait no now it effects me

[magic falcon]

I like playing like medic from tf2

[muted condor]

Leave only heavy and the game will be 5x better

[grave narwhal]

[foggy ruin]

Hell yeah

[magic falcon]

You can see why medium is so fun to play

[placid slate]

Utopian society where defib and demat doesn't exist

[compact tundra]

Also @sudden pewter, where the fuck do you get all those gifs. Like you have a new goofy ass gif for like every conversation

[muted condor]

https://tenor.com/view/mundo-feliz-onetreehsll-world-if-gif-14071235670792471304

[sudden pewter]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1036749402053816371/1050278808911085658/TheWorstThingToEverHappenToMe-1-1-1-1-1.gif

[grave narwhal]

Medium needs a new weapon, revolver pike and cowboy all are sniper esq weapons, fcar ak and famas are all the same thing, model and Cerberus are okay, riot shield is… riot shield. And dual blades are underpowered.

[sudden pewter]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1009830578545246213/1393085421482672138/speechmemified_pasteimage.gif

I’m gunna pull a Big Ben I can’t take it anymore

[grave narwhal]

Medium needs a more non typical weapon. And don’t even start on the gl-40.

[muted condor]

The image that can win any argument regardless of who’s right

[placid slate]

"Your majesty a second bus is heading towards Big Ben"

[placid slate]

Boo

[sudden pewter]

Wait did I fuck up? Is his name not Big Ben

[placid slate]

Not the scary kind, the disapproval one

[sudden pewter]

It has Ben in it

[placid slate]

Oh the only other spear fella?

[sudden pewter]

No, the idiot with the terrible takes

[placid slate]

Different person ok

[sudden pewter]

The dude that thinks Demat is destruction

[placid slate]

Almost is, more so a powercreeping version of it

[sudden pewter]

He got absolutely roasted in main and I stole the blocked message image because he publicly said he was blocking someone and everyone dogpiled like there was blood in the water

[muted condor]

Demat completely goes against the spirit of the finals imo

[sudden pewter]

It was honestly beautiful

[compact tundra]

Huh, it's a really unique take on destruction and map altering

[sudden pewter]

I don’t think so, it’s just too applicable to every possible situation

[placid slate]

Demat for pussies now

[compact tundra]

I swear to God you have to be a furry, how the fuck do you have all of these and your not a furry

[placid slate]

To fuck with people

[muted condor]

It’s supposed to be a super exciting game show with explosions and shit but the demat is the most anti climactic item ever

[sudden pewter]

I’m very hairy, and I’m not a furry. Like Urchin said my gifs are purely to get reactions out of people

[compact tundra]

I don't accept that answer any more form him, I need an explanation

[sudden pewter]

Turning any geometry into what is essentially a door seems pretty The Finals to me idk

[muted condor]

Specs should be flashy, explosive, or wacky

[compact tundra]

I'm going to forcefully and completely platonically make out with you.

This is a threat

[muted condor]

Me first please

[grave narwhal]

Yeah but if the demat was like a charge that just straight up exploded structures it would stick with the theme better

[compact tundra]

It wouldn't be platonic with you my big dual blades man

[compact tundra]

It would just be C4 or breach charge as a spec then

[grave narwhal]

Yeah. Pretty much.

[muted condor]

I do not demat I do not defib and I do not run pike
I use dual blades with turret and if I lose so be it

[sudden pewter]

https://tenor.com/view/boykisser-you-like-kissing-boys-don't-you-cat-lowpoly-3d-gif-9960745507421464646

[placid slate]

Just like me fr fr

[sudden pewter]

The HealBeam is my most used spec on Medium ngl

[muted condor]

Actually having it charge a wall you target and the longer you charge it the bigger the explosion gets would be sick

[compact tundra]

Mines turret with heal beam in a close second. I like de-matty but I just cannot get the hang of it. It just does not fit my playstyle

[placid slate]

Demat existing is literally almost the sole reason people think breach drill is ass

[muted condor]

Yo that would actually be fucking bad ass

[sudden pewter]

True

[muted condor]

So you can ether blow up a small hole in a wall or literally detonate the entire floor to a room

[placid slate]

Like if demat didn't exist and it went off cooldown 5 seconds faster it would be minimum b tier

[muted condor]

I think you might have actually cooked here, would need a lot of tuning but it could be awesome

[sudden pewter]

But in what scenario would that be useful?