💣┇weapons-gadgets

[ruby olive]

RIP LIGHT PLAYERS? No... *RIP Cowardly players, all light players have the same skill, stun and invisibility to attack from behind because they have no fps skill 😂😂😂, light players have to play with other skills, those who use medium or heavy in rank or in normal matches always change the way they play with other skills and other strategies, those who use light only use the same thing making the matches tiring and disgusting, light players! Improve your fps skills! i'll love this big change, great job Embark ❤👏👏👏

[arctic fog]

:(

[formal monolith]

Bro you are so wrong in many different levels bro...

[ruby olive]

Staying more than 10 meters from an opponent and doing an invisible stun is being a pro player?
Why don't they use dash? Those who use dash have skill,
I'm glad that light is being nerfed, you guys need to stop being too dependent on those two skills, it's like a drug, there are streamers who can't take 2 steps without becoming invisible

[formal monolith]

Ok, hear me out for sec every class on the fianls have purpose, little is to flack, medium is support and heavy is to tank

And with class has power little has invisible, grappling hook and dash.

And medium has sentry guy, healing beam and dematerializer

Heavy is charge dome and goow gun

My point is that mediums and heavy have a power they can turn to while little is limited cuz how bad their power are. With nerf

[ruby olive]

Light has invisibility 2x, he has it in the special ability and in the invisibility grenade, it doesn't make sense

[broken ledge]

Light has the highest DPS weapons, so he's supposed to hit and run, choose their fights intelligently

[formal monolith]

Which is what the little need cuz he easy to kill.

[ruby olive]

How come they don't want to be nerfed?

[broken ledge]

Light isn't a support class, it's the assassin class

If you give him support stuff then the others won't have their niche, and if you give them more damage he'll be broken

[formal monolith]

Also 0perational, I disagree I think the F-Car has high DPS

[formal monolith]

Cuz, their survival rate is now deceased, now

[sand monolith]

it makes sense now

[ruby olive]

In my opinion I think that this makes the game more competitive, when I use light I use katana + dash + invisibility grenade, and the grenade pays off because you can even help your teammates, the problem is that there are players who in addition to normal invisibility still use invisibility grenade, if you look closely even locators the light has 2x

[gray bridge]

imagine a time machine bomb where it sends people back 10 seconds

[ruby olive]

Want to play a few games?

[sand monolith]

i am writing a paper unfortunately

[formal monolith]

Is that the only build you run with light?

[ruby olive]

I use sniper + zip line + c4 and flame grenade in open maps like sys horizon or monaco

[ornate furnace]

just came back to see this- bro they're the only 2 specializations

[arctic fog]

Maybe they should remove the invisible cloak as an ability but keep the vanish bomb. They could add new ability that implements stealth and movement, but not quite as good as cloak.

[fleet brook]

It has the same uptime (they said) just no more toggling

Commit to your plays/ pre plan and if you can't be creative it's what light is about

[ruby olive]

I use the three categories to balance the team according to the players who make my team

[fleet brook]

Am I the only light player not calling the cloak "unusable"

[formal monolith]

If there going to remove invisible then they should buff grappling hook and maybe dash in that case

[ornate furnace]

🤨 brother using an invis grenade stops your normal invis CD you cant use them simultaneously

[fleet brook]

Dash + sword users would become actual cancer

[ruby olive]

But you can use it when normal invisibility runs out

[ornate furnace]

dude you know what scares me? A light player using a sword, like oh my god its terrifying, when I see a light with a sword I think its so OP

[fleet brook]

My opinion is invis doesn't feel terrible you just can't use it for stupidly long periods of time

[ornate furnace]

buffing dash or grapple will not make that the problem if anything buffing anything with light will be good, its not cancer or bad if it already does nothing, a slight buff to whatever light has wont make it cancer if EVERYTHIGN else is still better

[fleet brook]

Just time your invis/ engage/ disengage better

[formal monolith]

It's not Op their just very very skilled.

[ornate furnace]

Okay, but then what happens after your 2 second invis runs out and your normal invis CD is at 0, then you're just a sitting duck??

[ornate furnace]

this was sarcasm-

[fleet brook]

You my sir have not gone against a good sword light they're the only light class I have high respect for as someone who plays light

[ornate furnace]

I am the sword light 😭, Infact im worse than a sword light I use DAGGER

[formal monolith]

Beside little are easy to kill anyways so...

[fleet brook]

I use dagger for meme tf2 spy

[ornate furnace]

you know what happens when you run dash and dagger, its a feast or famine, same thing with sword, you either kill everything or blow up and die, making dash better wont exactly stop light from having 150 hp

[ornate furnace]

if invis or dagger worked anything like tf2 spy it would be great but these devs are scared of cb2 dagger 😔

[fleet brook]

Lights whole thing is being hard to hit

[fleet brook]

I just wish dagger had better hit reg for what is a "back"

[ornate furnace]

whats so hard about hitting a light besides whenever they have dash (3)? sorry to say but rn you can kinda track a light dashing, or just..blow them up mid dash-

Light isn't like medium in terms of "we should be scared to buff this" buffing light would literally just make it actually viable instead of it having a ridiculously high skill gap, theres a reason running 3 lights would be considered "throwing" while running 3 heavies or mediums isn't

[formal monolith]

Their hitbox is not that hard to hit

[ruby olive]

In my opinion they could replace the invisibility skill with a healing skill like rogue company or bloodhunt, for example a syringe that increases hp by 30 or 40% which would allow lights to have more chances of being able to fight directly vs heavy or medium should be able to be used simultaneously with the invisibility grenade to be able to inject.

[ornate furnace]

im not saying light isn't good, im saying that it takes way too much work as a light to do anything when every other class can counter it, get a kill as a light, defib! Fight anyone as a light potential chance of being blown up by an rpg or lasered hmmm... 54%

[ornate furnace]

I dont think it should be a specialization, then everyone would run it, if anything make it a passive probably, Now THAT would be busted

[formal monolith]

Idk, little job is supposed go behind their opponents. Not stay close with their team.

But a healing gun for little sound like a great tool. 👍

[ruby olive]

That's your style of play, I like to protect the cashout with a sniper in tall buildings 🧐

[ruby olive]

Sometimes I can get away with 1 hp and it takes a long time for the hp to go back up, which I think is unfair in the light category because it's the most fragile, so I came up with this idea

But as for invisibility, I think it's about time it was nerfed, this combination with the stun gun is very OP

[formal monolith]

Idk invisible now feel so so so unuseble, I rather they nerf stun gun instead. Or buff the power of little...

[fading crater]

How you find light nerfs this update?

[steady mauve]

hmm

[broken ledge]

The Nerf was fine, you just have to actually think about when to use it now

Light was massively buffed this season by the nuke and heavy nerf

Sometimes a class gets a big buff by everyone else getting nerfed, lol

[sand monolith]

Invis wasn’t ever strong. Good players can always see it

At best it was a pub stomper

[formal monolith]

No you just got a lot skill then

I can image. Do you use F-Car?

[sand monolith]

This is likely placebo. The patch notes were mistyped and the nerf didn’t change any breakpoints from distance

[formal monolith]

Nice to know you switch thing up a bit, you have my respect. 👍

[sand monolith]

It said it changed the multiplier from 60 something to 50% but the multiplier was already set to 55% in the 2.0 update

Yeah from 0.67 to 0.5

But if you look at patch 2.0 it was set to 0.55 already

Which I don’t think is any different in terms of breakpoints from 0.5, given the base damage is 25

Maybe yeah

I wish they would give it a proper niche and weakness instead of just making it stupid until you have to reload

[bitter ingot]

Fuck the big three

It’s just big me

These are amazing dude 😭🙏🏻🙏🏻🧴

😂😂😂

I don’t fw people with ppl with cat pfps

The finals community is cooked

[dusty bison]

Does flamethrower get blocked by shields?

[warped quiver]

yes

[dusty bison]

ok ty

[restive plover]

[glass torrent]

What weapons do you recommend for the rankings?

Or gadgets

[wise briar]

Add a 50. Cal sniper for M so that we can finally counter those annoying lights

[soft juniper]

cool ran into a cheater who is not only prefiring but was having perfect aim no mater how much was showing on you

[foggy snow]

Zafferman's Weapon Master Sheet (2.5.0)

Contains the following (CORRECT) stats for all weapons:

• Damage values (body and head)
• Fire rate
• Reload times (empty and tactical)
• Time-to-kill calculations vs. all classes
• Damage dropoff ranges/modifiers

All stats are based on exhaustive frame-by-frame analysis, whose scratch work is also visible in the different tabs of this sheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ud7Rdl3AgMw9mmfDwW2LtDMnzZQ9IIhnqSE4ivsaMTs/edit?usp=sharing

I'm tired of people spreading misinformation about the M60 killing faster than Lewis (among other things that came from certain incorrect spreadsheets)

so I went and did the math + video analysis on my own

Many of these values are also present in iTz_Nao's CNS bot (and I helped him with that, too).

[frank eagle]

The new v9s skin is so fire would be great with fcar in the same style

[supple oracle]

No wonder i dint feel much difference when getting shot by both lewis and F-CAR, they both do 25 damage per shot

only difference is that FCAR has more rate of fire and lewis a bigger mag to spray

[foggy snow]

Fun fact: both of Heavy's LMGs kill faster than the AKM and FAMAS.

which is bonkers when you'd expect Heavy to have the slowest killing guns, to balance out his tankiness.

[supple oracle]

and thats not counting the health difference?

[foggy snow]

I mean in general.

[supple oracle]

im dumb, forget what i said

[foggy snow]

this is why you see so many players cling onto the FCAR

it's not just Medium's best performing, and best feeling gun.

it's Medium's ONLY gun that makes firefights vs. other classes fair.

[supple oracle]

thats a hard pill to swallow...

[foggy snow]

killing faster than Heavy's guns, but still slower than Light's guns (barely)

[mellow lodge]

[mellow lodge]

mfw heavy mains cry for a better gun

[foggy snow]

heavy mains have no excuses tbh

[sleek pond]

? which heavy mains?? tbh heavy has very good gun options

[mellow lodge]

seen a lot of people come here crying about heavy being weak and underpowered

mf's actin like heavy ain't the most op class in the game

[sleek pond]

weird i always see people complaining about how heavy is overpowered

[mellow lodge]

yeah because those pople have brains, i'm talking about the idiots lmao

also i cannot believe people say the sa12 got a big nerf 😔

[soft juniper]

I wish lights had some kinda of explosive main weapon

an explosive crossbow could be something but thats just me dreaming

[untold quest]

I been thinking about that and tbh sound like a good idea and also fits with the light gameplay

[soft juniper]

I mostly say this because I dont know why but my aim is bad but Im cracked as a melee player with the exception of explosive main weapons

[untold quest]

Got it but its a great idea in my opinion since mediun and heavy have granade launchers and stuff

[soft juniper]

yeah would be nice to see that in new season too

[mellow lodge]

if the game lives till then

[soft juniper]

this wont turn into another Gundam evolution

[supple oracle]

still wishing for a non-double barrel shotgun for light...
i just want a normal shotgun

weeeell, a TAURUS JUDGE ain't exactly a normal looking shotgun, but i believe its perfect for light

[soft juniper]

If anything to make the sawed off better they could give it a faster reload or let you have the power to load one shell in and then shoot right away like the others

[supple oracle]

what?...

i dont get the last one...

[viscid depot]

either fix hit registration or buff shotguns to compensate for its shoddiness

[sturdy reef]

i wish the iron sight from the revolver is a little bit thinner.

[fleet brook]

Who?

All I've seen from heavies is giving back 2 c4

[mellow lodge]

idiots that come into this chat here and now and people in game feedback sometimes

[fleet brook]

Eh I just want more destruction options maybe another ranged one

If you don't want to give another one buff the ks is destruction

[fleet brook]

Wish we had more options to customize sights

Even if it's just basic

Holo

Dot

Etc

[fading crater]

This would cause picking only one weapon with the highest dmg. The more different they are, the more likely someone will pick something else

[mellow lodge]

you act like people pick different weapons in this game

also the best weapons in the game have sights

[fleet brook]

How so?

It'd make revolver bearable

[tacit zinc]

the heavy class is so powerful that it is the medium class which is the most represented.

[junior python]

Pov embark trying to make content for anything but the akm

[covert parcel]

question about weapon EXP
throwing knives level 1 > 2 is 20K EXP
every other weapon i have is 2 > 3 is 9K EXP

is this a bug?

[soft shale]

Heavy is not the most OP class at all. But it doesn't really need buffs right now. Heavies are still powerhouses with 1/2 Mediums support.

I'd revert the C4 count to 2 (I don't use and don't see C4 being used at all in S2) and try to fix KS23 some more. I actually liked it better at release. It was a slow gun that hit hard, which felt more rewarding to play, and could be devastating if you had a team mate by your side to finish off targets.

I think Medium is and always will be the main pick, that's pretty much the point of an all-around class. To me the FCAR needs to be toned down a little, it should be weaker in CQC. Hipfire at least needs to be nerfed, so that the AKM can shine. The FAMAS while not that bad, does not really convince me compared to the other two.

[arctic fog]

Famas needs a buff and it can't just be recoil again. It should have been in the meta on s2's release but it'a too weak.

[mellow lodge]

heavies are the most op class because of health, 2 shields, rpg, very high ttk

[sleek pond]

i very much agree with your points , c4 really got overnerfed and fcar is a lil bit too good

[mellow lodge]

yeah c4 needs 2 charges gain

[mellow lodge]

not a lil bit, its better by a long shot

[mellow lodge]

if only any of the season 2 weapons were good 😔

[sleek bramble]

I love powershift for spamming granades

[sleek bramble]

Same. I loved two c4

[mellow lodge]

the basically just mad it a breach charge

[sleek bramble]

Nuke is over so why not two c4 charges again

[sleek bramble]

I used c4 a lot but ı now use gravity, no c4 :((

[soft shale]

They're also bigger, slower bullet magnets. They're very strong in close to mid range head-on fights, but not so much beyond mid range: either they can't hit the enemy at all (sledge/flamer), or they can't hit accurately and deal damage fast enough due to recoil/damage drop off (shotguns, LMG).

RPG is debatable: it usually won't be fired twice in the same fight because of the cooldown, can be game changing in the right circumstances (low HP enemies) or miss entirely or not be enough to take the advantage. I think it's fine the way it is.

Defensive stuff is what the Heavy class is meant to provide to the team, mesh shield nerf is fine, dome shield nerf also fine. It can be beaten/countered. The strongest defensive tool right now is the barricade... but it can't be moved or thrown.

[mellow lodge]

lmgs have insane range if you can controle recoil which isn't that difficult on the lewis gun, current meta is MHH so two heavies which rpg delete you from a fight instantly and even if there is one heavy 140 damage instantly requiring no skill will always win you the fight, there is tanking and then there is just literally never dying

also this is a close quarters combat game 90% of the time

bigger and slower, sure but they also have a medium up their ass with a heal beam 95% of the time

[ornate furnace]

rare common sense based post, heavies ttk is actually too damn much, I use to think it was better than lights till I looked at the wiki and realized most heavy weapons fall short of lights dps by like 50, its still crazy to me that they can do 207 dps if they have good aim

with like a 40 mag that should be considered more than 207 dps it feels like fucking 400 dps 💀

[balmy rivet]

the sword is amazing

[red dove]

Where my dagger mains at🗣️🗣️🗣️

[ornate furnace]

😼

[fleet brook]

Lights have always had the best DPS and depending on weapon heavies ttk is either long or short

Also medium has the best gadgets makes sense there guns suffer

Also I've decided it become a degenerate and run shotgun invis stun and I've been destroying pubs so ej

Also light is made for short fights

Heavy is meant to stay in a engagements for long times with very little disengage if they run sheilds

[boreal laurel]

Funny thing is, I would say mediums have really good weapons. The trick is that they all deal high damage per shot, but they shoot slower than H or L. Thus they make you rely more on skill than the other two classes.

[fleet brook]

The AK is a trash starter weapon tho

Like they have higher damage per shot meaning they can force disenchantments if you hit the head

[boreal laurel]

Agreed—you can get good with it but it’s not easy. At least it’s got a bottomless magazine so it’s forgiving if you can’t aim. FCAR or shotgun would be better for starters

[fleet brook]

Mediums also outrange both light and heavy (not counting sniper)

[sleek pond]

🙏 i would like a medium to try and duel me in a Lewis fight in range ye

[fleet brook]

Cool play cover you can't destroy it from that far away without utilizing utility

They also move faster than you so chase down isn't an option and they can reposition faster than you can deal with it and you're a large target grenade launcher let's them focus on movement while chipping away at your health and just staying out of your range whilst chipping your health and using cover

As long as they don't just stand there like a bot and use there brains and gadgets they could and usually win

[sleek pond]

ye but they dont outrange Lewis or even m60

[fleet brook]

I know asking people to use brain cells is hard

[fleet brook]

Maybe I dedicated too much times to grenades but archs and hitting beside you if your using cover does

Medium also has more ways of approaching a fight and a smaller hitbox

[meager crow]

get rid of invis...

ik thats a core gadget or specialtie but i feel like with the removal of recon theres really no defense to it

espically when they switch sonar from med to light

[velvet escarp]

valid point but what are they gonna replace it with

[meager crow]

how tf did u get that role....
i want

[soft shale]

You can't hit sh** long range with M60 or even Lewis. At least not consistently/accurately enough to drop any half decent player quickly. That's not the point of these guns anyway. FCAR/FAMAS/LH1/Sniper are all much better suited for that kind of fight. Which is why you have team mates.

[velvet escarp]

what role

[meager crow]

Light main

[velvet escarp]

honestly i dont remember lmao

[fleet brook]

I was just pointing out mediums outrange heavies is all

[meager crow]

remember then...

[soft shale]

I agree 100% and that is perfectly normal.

[meager crow]

anyways idk just invis is way to op and doesnt belong in the game espically when the only counter is with the build that has invis

[soft shale]

But apparently Heavies have insane range lol. If you've played Heavy a bit, you know that's really not the strength of that class. Like not at all.

[meager crow]

heavies who play up close🙊

[restive plover]

You can see and definitely hear them when the move, or use fire/gas to keep them from using it in a specific area since it drops when they take damage.

[soft shale]

As I said, it's very good at head-on close to mid range fights.

[fleet brook]

Any dot

[meager crow]

ik but theres alsop ppl who do nothing but sit in a corner and rat and when u combine that with invis..

[fleet brook]

Oh that person was saying that they're heavy would win a longer range engagement with a medium

[fleet brook]

Nades

Arena destruction just keeping keen

[meager crow]

i know but honestly i main light and i just wnat something else invis is sooo cringe and honestly doesnt really belong int he game tbh because light is more for movement and shit idk i just fee like there's better options then invis

[velvet escarp]

hear me out: light with recon senses?

[restive plover]

We don't have to have only three specializations.

[velvet escarp]

it would be way more fair on light rather than medium

[meager crow]

yoooo!!!!!!!!!! u might be onto something..........

[meager crow]

each main only has 3 wdym...

[soft shale]

Honestly in most discussions here, I feel like people forget it's a team game sometimes. Any class, weapon or gadget should be looked at individually, but also in the context of team play. Using grenades/focus fire and/or different angles can melt any class including Heavies in the blink of an eye.

[restive plover]

I mean going forward. We shouldn't have to get rid of cloak to get something else.

[meager crow]

true but ppl who solo queue dont have that type of communication

[soft shale]

I'm a bit tired of listening to solo Q players tbh. Yes they're part of the community and should have a voice too. But this game is definitely geared towards team play. Heavies are only unbreakable if you're solo queuing with two randoms, one being braindead and the other being a Light sniper camping the other side of the map. If you stick together and fight together with complimentary kits, everything dies very fast. Unless you're facing other stacked teams... in which case most fights are pretty even. It goes to show that balance isn't as disastrous as people pretend.

[meager crow]

ok cool point still stands and theres always going to be solo queue players in every game

[soft shale]

But your experience as a solo queue player will be vastly different in Battlefield where you're drowned in a team of 32/64, so individual skill or good communication matter less, compared to The Finals where each guy is a third of the team.

[barren prawn]

had a break of the game is the ak or the famas meta for medium?

[soft shale]

The Finals will never really be a satisfying experience for solo queue players, except the few with enough skill to tip the balance of the game in their favor, no matter the odds.

I'm pretty sure all the arguing about cloaking device comes from solo queue players.

[restive plover]

Neither, the scar is still on top.

The ak is better than the famas however.

[barren prawn]

thank you :)

[lilac swift]

I'm at about 80 soloq hours and I don't find it an issue, I mean the experience is 5x better with a full squad but soloq isn't as miserable as people make it out to be (except in ranked, i have had some horrendous experiences)

[honest willow]

i actually enjoy solo qing too, u can meet some cool people. Obviously had my fair share of toxic teammates, but most of the time it’s not terribly unbalanced. Just my experience tho

[lime tendon]

i think sword + dash was viable before but it might be the only thing light has going for it lol

[lilac swift]

I know statistically it sucks but i've been running duos a lot recently and the cl-40 seems significantly underrated. The ability to two-shot a light without having to be slightly accurate just shuts down so many options for them (such as stun or dash), and if you play cover well it's on par with the revolver or 1887 for 1v1s

[balmy rivet]

yeah

[sleek pond]

never seen cool people nor toxic people nor anyone that opened the mic from the start of this season

[junior sable]

if they drop invis they have to increase light hp tho, invis is the biggest survival factor for lights

and insanely good for positioning

[lilac swift]

Unironically the best buff for light would be an fcar nerf

nothing more upsetting than peeking for 0.5 seconds and being beamed down instantly

[sacred cypress]

What is the best mine to use

[rough carbon]

Two explosive stacked on each other

Put an orange barrel nearby for extra oomph

[arctic fog]

They should give light a second breach charge bc it's not too utilized

And it's not good as c4 so it wouldn't be too op

[winter herald]

devs please make me play better ;_; . For real tho , finished the champ level contracts and all i got was a arm tattoo. Cmon

[formal monolith]

Exactly the F-Car is the most annoying weapon to fight up against, that weapon has the Highest DPS in the game!

[shell ore]

Fcar nerf burst pistol buff when

[upbeat totem]

With the FCAR, is it better to tap shots at long range?

[shell ore]

No after 5 bullets it’s a laser

[upbeat totem]

Theres only recoil for the first 5 bullets?

[shell ore]

Im pretty sure unless they changed it

Try in training mode, pull down and left for 5 bullets and then just laser

[formal monolith]

Bro the F-Car should not be little killer.

[fleet brook]

Breach is good enough I run it

Maybe decrease the arming time a bit

[sullen tree]

I do really hate it when this kind of rhetoric starts, it's always the same in games like D2, where it starts as "well you know it's a team game" and ends with people utterly dismissing any solo player. (not saying you're doing it, just saying that I can see the warning signs)

it's like when people get annoyed that casual players are asking for buffs/nerfs

[soft shale]

Input from casual/solo players isn't valued as much because they *usually *lack the playtime/experience/skill. If you've only played 40 hours of solo queue with one class, needless to say you have not really experienced The Finals. My personal experience with this game was as follows:

• solo is generally horrendous due to bad team compositions, lack of team play, skills, understanding of the game, communication, you name it;
• duo + random is slightly better, but if the third player plays on his own, he's still pretty much a dead weight ruining your efforts;
• trio is the most enjoyable for obvious reasons

[digital saddle]

which is why a 5 player game mode like Power Shift shines.

[soft shale]

More players per team equals less reliance on individual skill and coordination. Yet a stacked team in PS will run circles around a team of randoms any day, because complimentary use of kits, being able to communicate makes a world of difference.

[sullen tree]

I still think it should be judged based on the value of the argument.
To simply dismiss or devalue someone's opinion because it comes from someone with less playtime is a textbook genetic fallacy.

A person doesn't need to play comp or with a team to understand that nukes were busted, or Fcar is causing a stale meta. You don't need to play comp to know that Dagger and Throwing knives are drastically underperforming and need a buff.

We should focus on the arguments instead of simply dismissing people's opinions out of hand because of where they come from. If they're truly inexperienced, their arguments will reflect that, and be easy to knock down

[digital saddle]

undeniably so

[obsidian nexus]

i dont think grapple on light needs that long of a cooldown. just a lil thought. i think if it was a little less cooldown it would actually be a good specialization

[sullen tree]

100%, either less cooldown or two charges

same with dash actually, it's a 7 second recharge for 1 dash

[formal monolith]

Better idea give the light 2 chagre for the grappling hook and the range should medium instead of it have very long range.

[arctic fog]

Grapple is pretty fun to use, although cooldown shouldn't be quite as long as it is.

[soft shale]

A new player can indeed give good input, because he may have prior experience from similar games. Playtime is not all.

But there are many bad players, many whose experience is limited to solo queue with randoms against stacked teams. I've played with them, I've played against them. I wouldn't listen to a word some of them have to say, based on how terrible they are in game, as they clearly fail to grasp how this game is meant to be played.

[sullen tree]

of course, but that inexperience will show through their arguments if they're prodded at even slightly

[soft shale]

If you've ever worked retail, you'll know that unsatisfied customers are always the most vocal, while satisfied customers remain silent for the most part. This is one of many reasons why I take all feedback discussions on games with a big grain of salt.

If you're getting fried time after time in every match you play, it's very tempting, and easier, to blame it on game balance, cheaters or whatnot rather than on yourself.

[sullen tree]

absolutely, I worked at McDonalds for 3 years, and that's just common sense anyhow

we should take these things with a grain of salt, but we can't simply dismiss an argument because of where it came from

[limber gull]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1230220487712440360/1230647914217476096/caption.gif

[covert parcel]

question about weapon EXP
throwing knives level 1 > 2 is 20K EXP
every other weapon i have is 2 > 3 is 9K EXP

is this a bug?

[digital saddle]

level 7 left out, too. it was noticed. but no explanation yet, I think.

[twin monolith]

I love weapons and gadgets

[arctic fog]

Another weapon/gadget enjoyer, I see.

[viscid orchid]

Weapons and gadgets are some of my favorite ways to play The Finals.

[waxen tartan]

Finals, at this point just delete light class, its gonna be easier for you.

[arctic fog]

sometimes it's fun to play without weapons and gadgets entirely

a lot of playstyles when you do that

[fading crater]

I myself pick different weapons and i see others too

[supple steppe]

The new first reload animation for the AKM in store is it faster than other isnt it?

[cerulean storm]

I doubt it

[supple oracle]

why should it be

[limber gull]

Cloak Nerfs are going to ruin the ability to run Dagger hit and runs like this: *btw my teammate was insane with dagger lol ❤️
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uJp9d20tFE0

[mellow lodge]

Good dagger players don't even run cloak though so doesn't change anything for dagger

[runic belfry]

hey i can’t remove the “overhand rack” animation from the akm. any help?
the animation is pay to lose lol but now i’m stuck with it on.
if the animation was exclusive to when i spawn i wouldn’t mind it.
sorry if this is wrong channel

[limber gull]

So you want to bully others for using cloak with dagger by claiming "only good players don't use cloak with dagger"?

If cloak is only used by bad players, then you'd have no problem defending against it and those "bad players" right?

[mellow lodge]

I'm saying that dagger with dash is infinitely better than cloak

Also I never said only bad players use cloak with dagger

[limber gull]

You could be better with it, but another person could be better with cloak. You're bullying others over their choice in gameplay style. That's terrible.

Yes, you did say it. Direct quote. "Good dagger players don't even run cloak though so doesn't change anything for dagger"

[mellow lodge]

Ah yes I'm bullying people 😂

Also a cloak dagger vs a dash dagger, dash will win 100% of the time

[limber gull]

Yes, calling other people bad players for their personal choice of equipment is bullying.

[mellow lodge]

When did I call someone bad?

I said good dagger players, never said you can't be average with it

[limber gull]

"Good dagger players don't even run cloak though so doesn't change anything for dagger"

When you say good dagger players don't run cloak it implies that whoever runs cloak is not a good player.

[mellow lodge]

Yes they are not good they are mid is what I'm saying

As someone with dash dagger will do infinitely more for a team

[limber gull]

Yes, you are a bully for calling them mid. It is only your personal opinion that dash is better, your personal opinion does not make it fact.

[unique ivy]

grapple hook gang

[ornate furnace]

this is sadly true? Kinda?? Dash and dagger is only good because aim assist makes doing the akiba step thing super easy, without it you'd have to put alot more effort with getting backstabs, I feel like dagger was meant for cloak with a more spy-ish gameplay in mind, maybe not since they havent fixed or nerfed dagger its prob intentional game design, but I def think its 50/50 for both

[mellow lodge]

Aim assist makes akiba step more inconsistent

[limber gull]

I'm not saying either is better for dagger because it's dependant on the player and their own personal style. Dagger gameplay feels inherently more akin to cloaked gameplay because of it's assassination style attack approach, but a player could use either dash or cloak. The nerf to cloak not only hurts the ability itself by making it lamer, but it hurts legitimate playstyles and tactics for a class that is already being bullied by toxic players.

[mellow lodge]

Ok so every single diamond dagger in light builds opinion also doesn't matter?

[ornate furnace]

I sat in the range and figured out that its actually the aim assist that makes it work, sure its inconsistent but pulling off the akiba step is impossible w/o it, I think you're mixing up Dash stabbing and the akiba step, two very diff techs

dash stabbing is where you dash around them and backstab, akiba is where you dash straight through them and backstab

[mellow lodge]

Which one is akiba step cause I have no clue since the name is stupid

[ornate furnace]

if you're close enough you right click then dash and it just works, thats the akiba https://youtu.be/Bo-IMmjdlAQ?t=185

[mellow lodge]

So front dash stab?

[ornate furnace]

yeah, you cant actually pull that off w/o the aimassist

bc it locking is what allows it to register as a backstab apparently ?? In every other case of trying to do it it didn't work w/o the lock on

[mellow lodge]

And how do you know that? You can't turn off the aim assist

[limber gull]

I think using a ranking to claim superiority in opinions is a terrible mindset just as it is to bully another player for choosing cloak instead of dash.

[ornate furnace]

Distance and timing kinda tell that, if you're at a distance you have to dash first, till you're in range then right click, then dash again, you literally cant do it unless you're in aim assist range

thats why its inconsistent because it relies on the buggy ass aim assist

but also why its op asf 💀 because you literally cant miss if you do it right

[mellow lodge]

So a hard stuck bronze player is good at the game with your logic?

[ornate furnace]

🤨 I think using ranked as a claim is the best example because you're going up against people who're competent, anyone whos like Diamond and they say that something they use is underpowered or hard to work with is probably right..They're diamond.

[limber gull]

I think someone who is only focused on ranks is going to inherently miss out on the enjoyment of the game itself.

[limber gull]

Balancing the game around the opinons and skills of top players is a terrible idea, and other games have proved this true.

[mellow lodge]

this isn't a conversation about enjoyment

this is a convo about me saying good dagger players use dash and you crying about me "bullying" people for calling them mid

[ornate furnace]

Okay well not in this situation, the quickplay players clearly dictate everything, nobody asked for a cloak nerf 💀

[limber gull]

I enjoy this game with stun, cloak, turrets, etc... I don't want them changed drastically or weakened to a point of uselessness. I would not enjoy this game if it adapted to the stale style of other ability shooters. I love the fast paced destructive and creative style this game offers. This is entirely about enjoyment. I enjoy the game as it currently plays, and the people crying for nerfs do not enjoy the game.

[ornate furnace]

well alot of things on the list you just stated got nerfed to uselessness, its so bad im seeing people use grapple

[limber gull]

I'm worried about the state of the game after a year of "balancing" updates.

[mellow lodge]

cloak is going to lose it's place in ranked and grapple will actually be a better pick

the casual players experience means jack shit when it comes to balancing really

since if every single pro player swaps to 93r and destorys with it, people will cry for a nerf

[limber gull]

https://tenor.com/view/thumbs-up-gamer-boy-derek-suit-typing-gif-20669184

[mellow lodge]

all the nerfs that have happened were because of casual players crying

sure stun is annoying, wanna know how to make it not annoying? play with your team

your argument is enjoyment has full rights over game balance

enjoyment has the right of deleting somethings existence, not nerfing

[woeful agate]

melee weapons/quick melee should not go through riot shield

[mellow lodge]

like the devs don't know how to nerf something as well

[limber gull]

Yes, if skilled players are destroying with certain equipment. This doesn't mean the equipment is broke. I agree with what you said about casual players adding unneeded nerfs with their opinions as well. You can read what I think here. #👂┇game-feedback message

[broken ledge]

No, the casual player is almost exactly as important as the competitive player.

Competitive players around the longest and so they are important, and probably more likely on average to pay for cosmetics.

But casual players are the lifeblood, and you can't ignore them, except at your peril.

[ornate furnace]

LITERALLY, casual joe #50000 whined that he got one clipped by a light while hes wandering off somewhere aimlessly and says its impossible to beat

[mellow lodge]

ok since we have begun agreing' i'll aplogise for the statements i made earlier about the cloak daggers being not good

i just come from the point of view of dagger dash being able to do more and require more skill

[mellow lodge]

yet with this game they don't care about the ranked players at all, the game is dying

depending on next patch determins if light in ranked is unplayable for solo q at least

[ornate furnace]

Idk, its a game built with being competetive in mind, balancing it outside of a competitive environment isn't entirely smart, I dont see why listening to the comp players more would be negative for the casual players,

Nerf heavy = every happy
Removing defib or reworking it = big smile on everyones face

[limber gull]

I appreciate your understanding and ability to consider the alternative. They both require skill to use and they are both fun.

[ornate furnace]

I dont think casual players enjoy triple medium team inf defib suck off heal beam

[mellow lodge]

like you can't argue that the devs of this game care about ranked at all, saying the devs care about their ranked players is just lying to yourself

we have had a meta that has almost never changed

light was viable in meta for about 2-3 weeks and then they nerfed it, the only actual meta changes we've had is recon is gone and so is nuking

streamers are what makes a multiplayer game popular now days, it's just how it is

[limber gull]

I play entirely casual and have no problem with facing a defib heal stack. I've had encounters where I laughed hard fighting them, and I've or a teammate have countered them easily by stopping the defib with stun or placing mines around enemy trophies, or glitching them. We've succesfully countered them in a variety of ways. The defib teams often get stuck having to reload after being revived allowing for us to easily coin the newly revived enemy player.

[mellow lodge]

yeah thats in casual, ranked it an entirely different story where everyone is trying their hardest

[ornate furnace]

I do, I entirely do, I have fun but I cant turn my face away against blatant cheese for the sake of fun

[mellow lodge]

i find this game incredibly fun, but not when i have to fight against the meta of this game

i wish this game did well and was popular

[ornate furnace]

I find this game fun up until I get rpg'd by a heavy and one shot, I find this game fun until I sweat my balls off killing a team just for them to defib stack eachother

[broken ledge]

I really don't feel like light is as weak as it sounds like you do

[ornate furnace]

a fight shouldn't like 4 minutes because a team keeps inf defibbing eachother it just shouldn't

[mellow lodge]

you play ranked? or have any friends who play ranked, or watch ranked?

[broken ledge]

I'm plat as light solo q

[ornate furnace]

idk, if light was any sort of strong running 3 lights wouldn't be considered throwing

[formal monolith]

Then are weaker then they where before.

[mellow lodge]

wdym a fight is never 4 minutes, your 2 team mates are instantly deleted by the 2 heavies with rpg's

[limber gull]

It's not cheese though. It's entirely manageable when you play counters.

-stun defib player
-mine trophies
-glitch defib/heal team
-goo gun stun defib
-shooting at the revived player before the revive finishes
-shields
-turrets

All these are enormous at countering defib/heal teams. There's more too but I'm just quickly typing.

[ornate furnace]

oh shit you're right, I forgot heavy is just better

[mellow lodge]

then if you think light isn't complete shit, good for you honestly, keep enjoying this game, avoid these chats, have fun is all i can wish you

[ornate furnace]

lmfao, shield and heal beam, whats stunning the defibbing player gonna do when their teamate is sucking them off, god forbid I get close to 2 mediums when they can both snap at me and beam me, its almost like stun gun does NOTHING TO MEDIUMS!!

[mellow lodge]

yeah in ranked where the averahe skill level is higher, stun does nothing, 2 mediums are either inside their heavies ass helaing them, or you are instantly dead to 2 rpg's

[ornate furnace]

mining trophies is a 50 50, if you just res someone whos trophy is mined they actually tp off of the mines when fully resed, the devs have built in counterplay to that, and shooting a resed player is fine I GUESS but lets all be fr, how many times can you get away with that without being lasered down

this is all from the perspective of a light btw, maybe heavy and medium have better times managing this,

I heavily doubt it though because people have been asking for role lock/item lock for a while now

[formal monolith]

Yea, especially with F-Car andGrenada launcher that kill lights.

[mellow lodge]

that would be shit for the game

[ornate furnace]

yeah god forbid I have the gull to think I can beat a grenade launching medium, even if hes low hp I still have a 20% success rate

[ornate furnace]

I still think item lock would be good, get rid of triple turret teams, ONE person run turret, ONE person run heal, and ONE person run demat, a triple medium shouldn't have ALL DEFIBS its dumb, and it takes the true diversity out of the game, you cant promote diversity in kits then have everyone running the same ass kits

[mellow lodge]

wdym you don't love tripple turret, or triple heal beam defib fcar

[ornate furnace]

no dude I love it, honestly they should just remove every class and have it be The "triple medium" not the Finals

[limber gull]

I've coined both players because they were busy "beaming each other" instead of shooting.

You're always going to be inherently disadvantaged in a 1v2 against any class and equipment combo, but you can win also it's not entirely unwinnable.

The shield can be used to throw over the revived player so they can't quickly shoot, or to cover yourself. Healing beams do not go through enemy shields, so they can be used to stop heals as well.

[mellow lodge]

like when people say this game isn't like other shooters, go play cod, i think like bruh this game is becoming cod

[ornate furnace]

I have this bug where my mediums dont have brain damage, im sorry to say

I think it needs to be patched yk, smart mediums remove that from the game

[ornate furnace]

also I dont entirely think so, imagine going up against a turret and a defib user team, I think thats easier to manage than 3 turrets or 3 heal beams

[mellow lodge]

yo i have the same bug

[formal monolith]

I think it best if light and heavy have a way to support each other instead like a tool or power

[mellow lodge]

lights only way of supporting it's team is playing like a rat to stop objective or throwing a glitch grenade at a shield

[ornate furnace]

this is true, but I think lights need to support their teams by picking off players of importance, I feel like if light was better at killing things instead of dying it would be more viable, its damage is fine, light shreds, but they keep nerfing the only thing light really has against other classes (its gadgets and tools...), light has nothing, it only had cloak and that clunky ass dash, taking those away kinda guts it because not it has to choose between buggy, or useless....and grapple.

[limber gull]

I enjoy playing as and fighting against stacks. I love watching a team play as mechanical goons with triple turrets, aps, and mines. It's awesome, and I think it's fun watching a team of medics get coined and scramble for panic revives.

[ornate furnace]

light being a dps is completely fine, but light doesn't play like a dps, it plays like a fucking suicide bomber, you cant dps as light without being punished for doing anything, light is in danger 24/7 by just being light

it promotes smarter gameplay sure, but nobody else has smarter gameplay, name the smartest thing a heavy or a medium has to do to support their team

[ornate furnace]

yeah nobody likes going up against stacks unless they're in a stack themselves, which is another problem this game has I think, idrc I play solo in alot of fps games, but this game falls short because again, its designed around a competetive environment

[limber gull]

Fun first over competitive gaming

[ornate furnace]

We listen to embark?

[formal monolith]

I think each team in the Finals should work well if it was like the class in Deep Rock Galactic where each has a set of tool and power in their own way. That be a good way to balancing.

[mellow lodge]

LMAO WHAT A JOKE OF A POST BY THE DEVS

[ornate furnace]

i was abt to say, because call me insane but last time I checked this game isn't very fun half of the time-

[mellow lodge]

safe and fair gameplay? getting things working right?

like genuinely the dumbest thing i've seen a dev post be 😂

[limber gull]

They listened to terrible balancing opinions from the fanbase and that's what has led to an imbalance in the game.

[ornate furnace]

I like embark! dont get me wrong, but safe and fair until lights have to play in the matrix

safe and fair gameplay till lil ol me has to suffer from a heavy player pressing a button

[mellow lodge]

i love this game but every single thing in that screenshot is no where near true

[ornate furnace]

maybe in a few years it'll be true if fortune favors but MAN.

[formal monolith]

I don't like epic games.

[mellow lodge]

this game has awful optimization for playing it as a pc player, safe and fair? honestly you know what that part is true as long as you play heavy and medium, things working right? hit reg bug be like lmao

[limber gull]

https://tenor.com/view/big-beat-manifesto-superhans-peepshow-manifesto-peep-gif-11588677

[ornate furnace]

you have a hit reg bug? I cant even hit things bro my gun decides it doesn't feel like shooting

[mellow lodge]

oh right yep forgot about the reload bug

[ornate furnace]

Its crazy we call it safe and fair when my gun has more depression than me /shrug

your gun gives up FOR you, intentional game design from Embark Dusty im sure this is the safe and fair environment he imagined

[mellow lodge]

like i've just started thinking of light as tank from ow 2

it's never going to be fixed, never going to be fun in comp, never going to be useful

[ornate furnace]

DUDE. THIS IS THE MOST TRUE STATEMENT IN THE WORLD, im hanging this up on my wall rn

this is gonna be my phone background 😭 Neither can have fun

[mellow lodge]

wait no light is a bit better because in this game i can adjust MY FUCKING FOV

dumbass bs console overwatch not having fov slider

[ornate furnace]

😭 cant have shit

[mellow lodge]

light really can't have shit in this game

they buffed glitch only to gut it

like 5 seconds? the only thing it has is it being a shield breaker

[ornate furnace]

its too strong man

[mellow lodge]

omg guys i disable a shield, pls nerf, make it no longer impact

[ornate furnace]

Turning off a heavys 750 hp shield, 500 something hp dome shield, and a mediums defib to stop them from doing the gay cycle?! Man, nerf that shit we dont need it

[sand monolith]

Genuinely the only issue with light is that the fcar, Lewis, and rpg exist

[ornate furnace]

and other lights

[sand monolith]

Light v light is fine

[ornate furnace]

is it really

[sand monolith]

Yeah I play a ton of light and I’ve never had an issue with it

[ornate furnace]

if the only thing deciding a light 1v1 is who tracks better or who can get the stun off first I dont think thats fun or engaging gameplay, ofcourse its an even playing field but again you kinda get sharted on for existing

[sand monolith]

Well stun is getting reworked

[mellow lodge]

it may be, could also just get a huge nerf

[sand monolith]

At this point idm

[ornate furnace]

what could it possible be

[sand monolith]

As long as it cancels cashouts I don’t mind

[ornate furnace]

its rework, how are they gonna make this better or worse im interested to see

[mellow lodge]

i have the same mindset

[sand monolith]

Hopefully a revert to the closed beta

[ornate furnace]

thats not a rework thats a buff 😭 I dont think embark likes light, I think embark studios is 80% heavies and 30% mediums

[sand monolith]

That is a sidegrade at best

Closed beta stun was not really objectively better. They were very different

Not open beta, that was just objectively better

[ornate furnace]

The only thing I want back from cb2 is prob dagger, I like that it wasn't super clunky but I also didnt like how charging it slowed you down, I thought it was counterintuitive gameplay

[sand monolith]

Cb1 holdable dome…..

[ornate furnace]

Idk I liked cb1 cloak. I liked quiet but visible cloak, I also want the crowd like roaring in the back and the commentator, I wish they didn't replace it/make it sound worse, alot of things got taken away that could've probably have been turned into settings

[sand monolith]

Cb1 cloak was fine and it’s never been good since sound was added

[ornate furnace]

again casual players being hand held because they cant see visible time and space moving right infront of them

[sand monolith]

Literally true

I played so much cloak before the sound was added and it’s so sad seeing it nerfed every patch

[broken ledge]

This is a kind of weird position for them to have because the actual game itself is very high skill ceiling, and a very punishing death system.
I think they're absolutely correct to cater a great deal to a casual audience, but they're kind of somewhere in the middle right now.

[ornate furnace]

casual players can find reasons to nerf cloak better than they can find reasons to nerf heavy and defib I swear

[ornate furnace]

and being in the middle is always the worse

[broken ledge]

Cloak stun is the most anti-fun thing in the game imo

[vocal thunder]

Just get them faster xD

[broken ledge]

Heavy absolutely needed a nerf, defib absolutely needed a nerf

I feel like heavy is still the strongest class even after all the nerfs

[mellow lodge]

they aren't in the middle, they don't care about ranked

[mellow lodge]

rpg is more anti fun

[broken ledge]

RPG is pretty disgusting, very true

[ornate furnace]

cloak? Just listen for them, stun?? Just shoot them if you're a medium or a light, stun is only a threat to heavy

[vocal thunder]

i think there fine now as long as you dont play the range they want

[broken ledge]

They're not totally broken, except RPG. They're way closer to balanced now, for sure

I think RPG really is the thing that needs changed the most.

Maybe give it a much longer draw time? Or straight up nerf it so you can't one-shot lights. That really is something that is keeping the light class down.

There's probably a lot of healthy ways they could rebalance the RPG where it's still gets a lot of value but isn't fun destroying for lights, and too easy to make a game-winning play with.

[vocal thunder]

it only does like 120 cant 1sh light

[broken ledge]

Word, it feels like I do get fully deleted sometimes though

[mellow lodge]

nah stun is only a threat to melee and liights

[mellow lodge]

yeah cause it does 140

so a bullet from any distence can kill you instantly after an rpg

[broken ledge]

Yeah, make it 120 then

[vocal thunder]

best way would probably to decrease the damage spread

[mellow lodge]

it needs to be 100

[fleet brook]

It's not that lights kit feels bad on the receiving end (60% of the time) coming from someone who plays light it's not good to get invis stunned shotgunned (the build I started running today)

[vocal thunder]

would do to little to M and H then

[fleet brook]

Give it better arena destruction

[vocal thunder]

scale damage from 140-80 depending on how good you hit ?

[broken ledge]

Decrease the Cool down then?

[sand monolith]

Yeah I said that assuming the stun gun rework is good

[vocal thunder]

just a tiny bit i guess

[fleet brook]

No one in videogame history has gotten stunned into being killed and said "that was good gameplay and had tons of counterplay and an even exchange" it always confuses me when devs add "stuns"

Especially when it's on the highest DPS class

[sand monolith]

In closed beta the stungun would stop you from shooting but would end when you took any damage. It was not a free kill and felt much better to play against

[ornate furnace]

heavies cant flick during stun, medium and lights can

[mellow lodge]

dps means jack shit in this game, ttk is where it matters and medium is the highest ttk class

[vocal thunder]

As long as its no full cc problem atm is that stun hardcounters every hammer or sword build

[ornate furnace]

weirldy true? You'd think it'd be light

[mellow lodge]

fcar ttk go brrrrrrrrrrr

[vocal thunder]

based on the gun

[fleet brook]

Heavies turning is severely cut

[broken ledge]

If it weren't for FCAR I think light would be the fastest TTK. It has the highest DPS If you were including reloads

[fleet brook]

Most of lights guns have faster ttks then mediums

[vocal thunder]

and the Fcar is overrated

[mellow lodge]

yes but fcar go brrrrrrrrrr

[broken ledge]

Only if you one clip

[fleet brook]

I know people forget the shotgun exist I run it and it can two shit most things

[mellow lodge]

https://tenor.com/view/bait-thats-gif-18806029

[ornate furnace]

fcar literally had to get nerfed bc of how fucking nasty it was

[fleet brook]

Crazy part is just hit your shots

[broken ledge]

Once you include for reload speed the f car becomes one of the highest DPS weapons

[mellow lodge]

fcar hasn't been nerfed yet, idc what anyone says that shit still fucking disgusting

[fleet brook]

If you miss against a stunned target you need eye help

[mellow lodge]

fcar has the second fastest ttk in the game

[ornate furnace]

TRUE but its harder to control

[mellow lodge]

oh no my gun is 1% harder to control, guys pls buff fcar is is now the worst gun 😭

[fleet brook]

And my point stands

[formal monolith]

NERF THE F-CAR, IT TAKES 0 SKILL!!!

[mellow lodge]

yeah thats why even overwatch was nerfed

[broken ledge]

I'd have to do algebra to check, but I feel like as a heavy if I get stunned I can still win most duels against lights if both are full HP

[fleet brook]

Shotgun light stuns you two taps you whilst using movement because your slow ass can't turn well or ads

[ornate furnace]

😭 Im grasping at straws here bro let me think medium is a little weaker than it actually is, ill be in a fucking psych ward if I dont

[broken ledge]

It's not zero skill, but it's too low skill

[ornate furnace]

whats that? I haven't heard that since the dark ages.

[vocal thunder]

i mean it dirty on mid-high range but thats it

[fleet brook]

Am I the only light that uses shotgun and gets results?

[sand monolith]

It’s not 0 skill it’s 0 weaknesses

[mellow lodge]

wait you actually think fcar is not completely op close range?

[formal monolith]

Fine, right, but I still have NO Respect for them.

[ornate furnace]

since it got nerfed? yes. I loved double barrel so much but now it just feels like...Useless??

[vocal thunder]

Well or 95% of the fcar players are "great" including me ? xD

[mellow lodge]

yeah the only thing that actually takes no skill in this game is heavy's rpg

[fleet brook]

Still two taps all classes

[mellow lodge]

nope db is useless against a heavy

[fleet brook]

With stun they can't even move to avoid it or shoot back well

[vocal thunder]

nope ?

[formal monolith]

I have more RESPECT for revlovor, and shotgun main, and maybe Akms.

[fleet brook]

It two taps heavys no or it has been for me today

[mellow lodge]

it was removedm each shot can do max 150, so even with quickmelee you can't kill with it

[fleet brook]

Two center mass shots usually kill a heavy no issue and if not leaves him super low for my medium too finish it

Huh guess I've been getting lucky

[ornate furnace]

I have this bug where they would never let me get that close even with invis

its like when I run invis my enemies get 2x more competent

[vocal thunder]

i think if you give closerange jumping hs you can kill a heavy

[fleet brook]

Any competent enemy shits on invis yeah

[mellow lodge]

shotguns have no headshot multiplyer

[fleet brook]

I still get results with it so meh

[ornate furnace]

I wish I got the results I use to get 💀 It only kills lights, but everything does that so is it really a feat?

[fleet brook]

And even if I don't finish the kill they're super low they have to retreat or my teammate will finish the job

[slow crane]

im pretty sure they do

[mellow lodge]

they do not

[ornate furnace]

no? why would a shotgun have a headshot multiplyer in ANY fps game

[slow crane]

really? I'll stop aiming for the head then

[vocal thunder]

50 hp is not that low

[fleet brook]

It's a good gun for pressure and if I don't finish the job I'm fine with pressure or the assist

Most medium guns can dish that out quick no problem

[slow crane]

Destiny 2 has it

[ornate furnace]

we still play destiny 2?

[fleet brook]

Hell even heavy guns can deal 50 hp pretty fast

[vocal thunder]

not just medium all

[mellow lodge]

no because games a pile of shit lead by the greediest assholes on the planet

[ornate furnace]

ding ding ding ding!! another correct answer!

[slow crane]

i do

[ornate furnace]

oh!

[vocal thunder]

and btw someone asked yes famas is a lot more fun on close range

[formal monolith]

The Fps area isn't looking to hot with game now.

[fleet brook]

Unless the tip is lying it does say "any build with two shots"

I'm not in game how much health is heavy packing?

[formal monolith]

It Companies like EA or Respawn Entertainment and Epic games, that make Fps game look bad 👎.

[vocal thunder]

350 just tested it it does not

[mellow lodge]

no it's companies like embark who can't balance that make fps games look bad 😂

[vocal thunder]

Well its 1 of the best balanced fps shooters out there atm

[ornate furnace]

it takes 3 shots with a double barrel to kill a heavy

[mellow lodge]

are you a professional comedian?

[formal monolith]

True, But I still hope the Embark Fixes their mistake tho. Cuz their still small company tho.

[mellow lodge]

or 2 shots 2 quick melees

thats proof how bad it is

[ornate furnace]

by time you shoot them once you're already in danger, 2 quick melees is PUSHING it

[vocal thunder]

No clue why you are that toxic but no i'm serious the game has by far the biggest %/implemented of playable things from all the games i know of and there is no hard meta

[mellow lodge]

this game has no hard meta? ...

[ornate furnace]

i think what hes trying to say is that its not, embark struggles with balancing tremendously, and they get bullied by the community alot into making dumber decisions, the finals players are more segregated than races in the 1900's

[mellow lodge]

this game is one of the most punishing games out there for running off meta

[ornate furnace]

the only REALLY good thing about the finals is that it uses counterplay in an interesting way most games dont exactly do, I like how everything "supposedly" has a counter, its just that some things still take more to counter than they should..

[sand monolith]

And fcar doesn’t have a counter

Neither does holding rpg at all times

[formal monolith]

It would been better remove temporary and see thing turn out

[sand monolith]

True

[formal monolith]

Actually there is a counter, just grab a goo can and hold it then you take less impact damage.

[sand monolith]

Holding a goo can at all times isn’t really counterplay

[formal monolith]

It still work tho, if you plan on not fighting the heavy.

[vocal thunder]

Ok then tell me that hard meta cause i cant see 1 yea the Fcar is a good gun but its not like you cant win against it

[mellow lodge]

heal beam, fcar, defib, jump pad, aps, THen heavy is lewis/sa12, mesh, dome, barricade, rpg x2

your right we don't have a hard meta we have an iron clad meta

[formal monolith]

Unless your light tho. Cuz it basically shared down lights

[ornate furnace]

are you a casual player, perchance?

[vocal thunder]

I mostly play M11 light and Famas medium

[sick imp]

we found the famas player holy shit

[vocal thunder]

like im nothing that special when it comes to skill but im not a potato whit a headset ?

[mellow lodge]

ok so you're a casual player no wonder you think this game doesn't have a hard meta

[sick imp]

fcar is basically a laser beam version of the AKM just by trading off 16 bullets, it's bumps up the effective range from close-mid range with the AKM to mid-long range

also, headshots.

[mellow lodge]

fcar has close-mid-long range

[sick imp]

yeah but it somewhat loses effectiveness on close range due to the smaller mag size

then again 20 bullets is enough to kill medium/light

[vocal thunder]

i know does 25 damage each hit so half a clip to kill a medium if you hit every shoot on body

[sick imp]

now factor in headshots

[mellow lodge]

and enough to kill a heavy, plus quick reload time, and insane hipfire

[formal monolith]

Let ask chat Question.

[sick imp]

tbh @vocal thunder play with what weapon you want, the metas are mainly applicable to high ranked anyways, we be here in quickplay having fun

[mellow lodge]

wait you guys get to have fun in quickplay? mine is just cl40 or hard meta comps

[sick imp]

(or ruining peoples fun)
looks at stun gun/sword

[vocal thunder]

even in ranked only the top end and you can still be a goat on other stuff

[sick imp]

i ran a full random team of lights with throwing knives

shit's great

[mellow lodge]

and even then because there are other people at your skill level you still get fucked by meta

[sick imp]

tbh i don't have a problem with fcar or cl40 users

riot shields however...

[vocal thunder]

Big version hammer mesh shield is a lot less fun for light builds xD

[ornate furnace]

mmmh..I think riot is dumb for 2 reasons, I've stunned a riot shield user just for them to slightly turn and still block my bullets, I dont think the shield should be tangible outside of blocking, ive also seen riot shield users accidentally block my mines w/o even blocking

its a get out of jail free card attached to you lol

[sick imp]

we can outrun heavies quickly at least since their mesh shield slows them down considerably

[vocal thunder]

its not full side cover shoot the pinkie toe

[sick imp]

a regenerative shield instead of a hard shield would be amazing to fight against
like yeah they can hunker down for a while, but it will break after a while,
and the attackers needs to be agrressive to not let the shield regenerate if they run away

[ornate furnace]

that'd be cool like you have it then it disappears for a bit, like a minecraft shield lol

[sick imp]

brother have you tried stabbing the toe with throwing knives

shit's got arcs

also a little bit of verticality can hide the toe too

[sick imp]

i'm thinking more like halo shield, but handheld

[ornate furnace]

i dont wanna say it but it feels like embark never tests these things thoroughly, like they say they do but then it releases and its like..faulty

[vocal thunder]

my throwing knife aim in game is worse then in rl and i hit myself last time i tryed

[formal monolith]

Who would WIN a Heavy any weapon or 2 Medium with F-Car? ( Pick NOW )

[ornate furnace]

heavy if they're good

[sick imp]

2 mediums.

[mellow lodge]

heavy as rpg go boom

[vocal thunder]

I mean shield does eat a few hits and then you only block a % of the damage as far as i know

[ornate furnace]

I fought a heavy who put down cover so fast it was like he was playing fornite, he instant put down barricade and then headglitched you 😭

[formal monolith]

Correct. 👐

[formal monolith]

Wrong the F-Car 2 can definitely shared down one heavy even with charge for Heavy.

[vocal thunder]

i mean winning a 2v1 as the 1 is hard

[mellow lodge]

the heavy playes fortnite with barricades and rpg them

[vocal thunder]

doesn't rly matter what you have

[ornate furnace]

its always been one sided, thats one thing I say about this game, it turns into fucking jjk when its a 2v1

but it shouldnt take 2 mediums or 2 lights to beat 1 heavy thats absurd 💀

[vocal thunder]

take a gas can and smoke them out thats how i solo heavys if you let them bunker ofc they win ?

[ornate furnace]

yeah gas the 350 hp flamethrower heavy out that'll help

most comps run fire nade, oh wait dome blocks out gas!

your counterplay is situational and your point isn't very clear, do tell how you beat these villainous heavies

[vocal thunder]

isn't everything situational ...

[ornate furnace]

Not getting rpg'd clearly

not a defib denying your hard work and sacrifice, clearly

[formal monolith]

Wait, why do heavy HAVE TO BE Good?

[sand monolith]

Every class should be good

[ornate furnace]

I have to put the distinction because casual heavies make heavy look balanced

ive seen alot of potato heavies

[formal monolith]

Why is 3 medium meta, but not 1 medium and 2 lights?

[ornate furnace]

🥲

[mellow lodge]

3 mediums ins't meta though it's MHH or MMH

[ornate furnace]

no no, 3 medium is busted im sorry, if you're all healing in tandem and defibbing and defib fragging its literally impossible to kill you, to properly deal with that you have to literally CHASE them around

its not hard to understand that like, running a light just significantly reduces your chances to win, light just has to do so much

[mellow lodge]

yeah that true

[vocal thunder]

i mean its a dexterity class its very skill intense isn't that what it is supposed to be ?

[mellow lodge]

but beijg so skilled at it doesn't make it do anything better than the other classes is the problem

[ornate furnace]

yeah thats what its supposed to be but look at other games with the same archetype, and tell me its not that bad

I have a better time playing overwatch dps than I do playing Light in the finals, hell even tf2 spy is a better time, and those two have the SAME hp

[mellow lodge]

look at tracer from overwatch for example as well same health as light but has been amazing since launch and good to play and use

[vocal thunder]

Problem whit overwatch is the balance based on the best players and not based on 95% of the players and that's the big difference here

[ornate furnace]

so is the finals tbh

[mellow lodge]

no

[ornate furnace]

? Idk I think I read into what he said wrong

[mellow lodge]

he said overwatch balances for the pro's

[ornate furnace]

oh

[vocal thunder]

they do the exact opposite they try to balance the big skill mid

[mellow lodge]

this game balances for the casual players and like bronze and silver players

[ornate furnace]

I see

[vocal thunder]

Finals is balanced for casual and they try to balance for comp whit out destroying that balance and thats a lot harder then just balancing for the top 2% and there meta that's what overwatch is doing

and what makes finals hard to balance as well are simply the options you have in the game

[ornate furnace]

idk, I was always a person of pick a poison, I think when they choose which one to cater the game will be better for said demographic, they already chose pc players over console players, now I wish they chose between comp or casual

[mellow lodge]

well we already know the devs chose casual for this game though

which is dumb move to make lmao

[vocal thunder]

they try to balance it that is hard but not a bad thing they try to make it fun for everyone but most are casual so they put there priority there

[ornate furnace]

i REFUSE to believe they chose casual I just cant see it

[mellow lodge]

well meta doesn't change in ranked, and light is unviable in ranked

i can't see how they care about ranked, especially with the new dogshit system

[ornate furnace]

Idk the finals players are allergic to dps's doing damage, and the only way to really change that is to either make everyone have the same hp, give light hp and less mobility, or them realizing that they this class doesn't need 75 nerfs

[mellow lodge]

or make fcar ttk slower and heavy guns less op

[ornate furnace]

but they cant make everyone happy that way because for some reason the tank needs to be doing 30000 dmg???

like idk we nerfed heavy's damage once and all they did was cry to their mommy embark

[vocal thunder]

give them time from what i have seen so far they are actually trying and aren't just after the money

[ornate furnace]

time isn't the issue its just the refusal to be transparent of it? like nobody knew they were looking into a cloak nerf cause why????

[vocal thunder]

im asking that myself a bit more transparency is always nice

[ornate furnace]

if they asked "do you guys think cloak needs a nerf" im sure half of the community would've shouted NO in their face

[vocal thunder]

i mean they have the intern data and can analyse it i can imagine that in the lower skill areas cloak overperformed higher visibility would probably have been the better option ill play the game as long as its fun that's all i can say

[formal monolith]

We agree that cloak needs to be back to where it was 👍.

[red dove]

Where my dagger trckstab tech at schlawg?🗣️🗣️🗣️

[lilac swift]

not here 😭

i missed 3 backstabs in a row once and i'm not gonna blame the auto-aim, but if i were to blame something, it would be the auto aim

[arctic fog]

sounds like an issue of skill

but I can not be talkin lol

[sick imp]

fr the auto-aim is horrendous

against heavies, sure.

but light and medium? nah the auto-aim be tweakin

[granite badge]

I’m back

[meager spade]

What did they nerf?

[sleek pond]

no that is just you ... only like 20% would have said so

[sick imp]

33% ability cost per cloak activation

meaning you can't spam it, or go back into cloak after being shot too many times

[sleek pond]

who even had fun fighting lights that spam cloak mid fight you are delusional

[meager spade]

Holy that's too big!! I guess the bomb will be useful now

[sick imp]

the problem is more about the latter part ngl

[upbeat totem]

Do mines count for the grenade damage challenge?

[exotic hare]

The Heavy class should get a Desert Eagle imo

[cosmic slate]

what do you guys think about the LH1?

[supple oracle]

No, not even the grenade launchers count (CL-40 & MGL32)

[blissful steppe]

Playing mostly medium no big problems with lights: cloacking is easy to see when they move + cloak is canceled when they get shot afaik?

[fading crater]

I am, they are visible as hell and its always fun to see those midgets trying to escape thinking they are safe

Im concerning a propability of uneven issue with the ones skill

[mellow lodge]

well next update they are becoming more visible

[fading crater]

If now lights get deleted when cloaked, next update there will be no reason to pick it

[sacred cypress]

Pls give Lewis gun a buff with range and accuracy and a buff for dome shield and maybe more mag for fcar and sniper and more customizable options like new body types and facial hair

[exotic hare]

Desert Eagle is perfect imo

[sacred cypress]

I feel like heavy needs a machine gun with high structure damage that's something to think ab

[torn mantle]

Which is better, FCAR or AKM?

[exotic hare]

Personal preference, I love the AKM

[mellow lodge]

fcar by miles

[hasty pivot]

THAT WOULD BE SO SICK
Dessert eagles are my favorite i use them in any game tht has em i would kill for that

What attachments do you think it should have/attributes
Like red dot,laser sight,being able to break walls

[mellow lodge]

i'm a deagle hater because in every single game they are better than the revolver in every single way

[fleet brook]

Most have higher recoil/ kickback

[mellow lodge]

=_=

[fleet brook]

Also depending on the game worse iron sights

[mellow lodge]

still that doesn't matter that much

deagles always have faster fire rate, more damage, more mag size

[fleet brook]

As someone who plays alot of games on console that does In fact matter

[mellow lodge]

i also play console, it does not matter that much

[fleet brook]

Certain "just pull down guns" in games don't work well on console

[mellow lodge]

really? i've found pull down the easiest kind of guns

[fleet brook]

Smg 11

[mellow lodge]

what game?

[fleet brook]

Siege but that's a "just pull down gun in the community

Smg 11 is great on PC on console it's only really good for burst fire

[mellow lodge]

smg 11 is a pull down gun?

[fleet brook]

Yeah that's most of the recoil is vertical

It's just insane vertical recoil (pre buffs and even a little after)

Also re aligning s high kick low fire rate gun sucks on console

PC it's just a wrist flick console depending on game your flick speed is largely slowed

[tough isle]

Guys how do i get the lever action shotgun for medium to do the cool animation

[fleet brook]

The spin reload?

[tough isle]

Ye

[restive plover]

That's specific to the dough wrangler skin.

[tough isle]

Aw shit is that from the bp?

[restive plover]

No, you can buy it for 800 multi bucks.

me need more shotguns for medium

[exotic hare]

Definitely a laser, ability to break walls like the KS-23

[rough carbon]

A shorter cooldown for small distances would be good too

[fresh mesa]

Facial hair is coming they said.

I love the bat. That is all.

[formal monolith]

Yea, that way the grappling hook can be used 2 time and light can save up one grappling hook in case, plus this would help light get in and out of battles.

[fiery beacon]

Fr, one hook is just annoying, we need two

Bow and Arrows would be nice

[fiery beacon]

What do you think about this?

[supple oracle]

whatever the most exotic bow & arrow or Crossbow possible

a simple bow and arrow would just be lost oppoortunity

[formal monolith]

Someone already made that idea thought 3D Model with each arrow having a different element like gas, fire and etc...

[sleek pond]

ye it would be nice but it wouldnt be good just like throwing knives

[fathom charm]

where is the post with 3D model?@formal monolith

[formal monolith]

Better call Saul man, it is in the fanart# channel in the finals Discord.

[fathom charm]

Tanks

[zealous timber]

Gadget/canister idea - freeze bomb
This is a grenade which works kinda like the pyro grenade,you throw it and as soon as it makes impact with anything it explodes into ice, which slows down enemies for 5s if they were in the area of effect when the grenade exploded, and it makes the ground slippery for 10s,

It can also counter fire, and fire can counter it

(The canister looks like the smoke canister but works like the gadget)

[fleet brook]

Nah the different dots could make it busted

[tired cedar]

Hey, quick question

Anyone know if smoke grenades counter the damage of flamethrowers?
If not, a good flamethrower nerf may be a smoke buff

[wise yacht]

I haven't seen the lewis gun used in months. Did they nerf it to the ground or something?

[wise yacht]

Depends if they're good at tracking with it or not.

[sleek pond]

i dont think anyone would want to get hit by an arrow that procs fire 🙏

[wicked apex]

GET THE DAGGER AND SWORD OUT OF THE GAME! The dagger should not be a 1 hit kill to a medium

[real tartan]

Hey chill on Sword - he my buddy

[hushed crown]

does anyone use the gas mine? i have never once seen anyone use it
i mean its not very good but still

or gas grenade

[minor hound]

I would call both of those fairly common

[zealous timber]

This is a png of the freeze bomb

[fathom charm]

https://tenor.com/view/disappear-pokemon-heisenberg-walther-white-walther-gif-5376551

[verbal apex]

I'd say its the best mine

Only one I use when I play medium. Gassing a cashout is very useful, or closing off a doorway. Often I also just shoot the mine to make it go off, a lot more reliable than having someone step on it.

I'd say pyromine is yucky tho

[hushed crown]

personally i like explosive mine, but i never thought that you can shoot the mines to make then go off
kind of like a secondary gas/pyro/frag grenade
i might have to try gas mine again

[verbal apex]

Problem with explosive is they're not great for cashout since people can just shoot them before starting to steal, or if you shoot it while they're stealing it can be blocked if the cashout is in the way. A gas mine doesn't care about cover, last 10 sec I believe so discourages for a lil while, if they shoot it they do your job for you, and you can even go on the floor under the cashout and just put the mine on the roof and shoot it to protect the cashout. Ofc the downside is if someone has fire to ignite the gas, but you can also find a smokecanister to pair the gas with to make it impossible for someone to steal unless they're actively being healed by a medium

[blissful steppe]

I see it a lot, more than explosive, especially on ranked

[night stratus]

Haven't played finals in a hot minute, is xp-54 still the best gun for light?

[foggy snow]

XP-54 and LH1 would be your best choices on Light

great balance between damage output and range

[night stratus]

alright thanks, so im assuming meta for weapons hasn't changed to much then (at least for lights)

[foggy snow]

I guess Sword is starting to pick up due to emote-cancelling tech

M11 and V9S are also not bad. they're Light's fastest killing guns, but they require you to hard-commit to close range to get value from them (due to low damage dropoff range).

[night stratus]

ah ok

[night stratus]

emote-cancelling tech? interesting...

[soft shale]

I actually see it used way more often than the M60.

[foggy snow]

Vain786 is soloing to diamond with sword only, and he's the best sword player

it's actually insane how slippery and lethal you can be with it

[night stratus]

👀

maybe i should try out sword

[soft shale]

You'll be disappointed. It isn't that easy to use.

[night stratus]

well ye skill ceiling for most melee weapons are pretty high

[soft shale]

Howevever, it's very annoying to counter if played right.

[night stratus]

time to start the grind

[autumn dirge]

Honestly I think sword dash might be the best light build after these nerfs. Even though its not that good. Cloak+xp light needs strong gadgets because of low hp and right now its so much worse than any fcar medium build

[sweet badger]

Why tf are these guys nerfing everything to the ground, now cloaking device, next tazer. After this season Im done with this game after 200hrs played, nothing is fun anymore everything is nerfed and boring

[foggy snow]

I can guarantee you that getting stunned outta nowhere was also not fun for many casual players.

light needs a full rework

[arctic fog]

I think stun is annoying but I didn't think they needed to attack cloaking.

[autumn dirge]

Honestly its really rare that I get killed while stun

Most of the time it just gives me a heads up that im going to get jumped by a light . Most ppl dont use it right

[neon nebula]

Added a suggestion for the Light's Gateway gadget under #👂┇game-feedback. Let me know what y'all think!

Suggestion:
With the Gateway, pressing Reload with only one portal node out should reset that portal, sending it back to your inventory. Could possibly put the gadget on a short CD to compensate if needed.

Reasoning:
Throwing your first portal and having it bounce into an awkward spot or otherwise end up in a bad location means that you have to just throw the 2nd portal wherever and wait for it to go off CD. This feels clunky and can be very frustrating.
I often like to keep one portal up and I can throw the 2nd one to activate it when needed. If the fight ends and I haven't used the 2nd portal, I then have to remember to throw it just to put it on CD. There's no other way of resetting it and it again feels awkward as a result.

This would serve as a nice low-effort QoL change for the Gateway, improving its general gamefeel.

[ornate furnace]

couldn't you also just glitch nade your own portal to make it go away, but thats also just still as tedious, I like this idea

[wise yacht]

Skill issue.

[wise yacht]

I gotta try that shit in PS.

[obsidian nexus]

FCAR FCAR FCAR, when will i see anything other than fcar

[runic plover]

bought the akm animation set. Really wish there was a way to have the game randomize between different animations so I can see more than one animation while playing.

[regal igloo]

You won’t 😅

[obsidian nexus]

big sadge

[pine escarp]

sledgehammer underrated, but please fix the buggy hit reg plz

[fleet brook]

That's a personal issue and stun is annoying

Cc in gun games is usually mega annoying if I doesn't take high skill

[ornate furnace]

idk why people keep saying stun is annoying if you're not a heavy just turn around and shoot the light stunning you, its the only CC ive ever seen that LETS you fight back

I stg these are heavy player opinions 😭

Like if you're a heavy just say so

[fleet brook]

It also screws your movement doesn't it?

[fleet brook]

Shotgun light two tap most classes (and can dual heavy with stun)

[ornate furnace]

You need movement to shoot? you need movement to turn around and hipfire kill the 150 hp gremlin whos probably standing still, and kill them, you have damage to kill a light in 2 seconds before they can even pull their gun out to do damage off the stun 😭

[fleet brook]

So once I stun a person by the time they're able to just turn around I've taken half there health at least also what light just stands still after stunning you

[ornate furnace]

the shotgun doesn't 2 tap man we're delusional, nobody's running shotgun anymore, you're the legendary 1%

[fleet brook]

Also I main light

[fleet brook]

Shotgun two taps most things besides heavies consistently at closer range and definitely two taps an enemy light

Which is who I stun because without movement lights are easy targets especially sword lights

[ornate furnace]

what plastic lobbies are you fighting, are you fighting mark in the quickplay games? is it philip in bronze?? Like, dude, be so fr. https://youtu.be/NlUBKwTJS2M?t=38

[fleet brook]

What does the second half of that message even mean

[ornate furnace]

https://youtu.be/NlUBKwTJS2M?t=320 Im asking you if you're fighting against potato's or people with 1/4th of a braincell

[fleet brook]

Also you can use stun for teamplay?

[ornate furnace]

sure, I never said you couldn't but it isn't a cc, this isn't overwatch where the moment anything gets shutdown its an insta loss, like stun gun isn't that strong im sorry to say

[fleet brook]

What are you linking and if I'm not seeing success with flank stun then I can just team fight with it

[fleet brook]

Not strong annoying paired with invis it's just annoying

[ornate furnace]

if 3 people shoot at you, you die regardless of stun or not be so fr, you dont need a stun gun for teamplay, its meant to help lights at their already tedious job of picking off someone

[fleet brook]

Light apologist when they can't kill someone in 0.1 seconds

Also I use shotgun to grind rank for fun

[ornate furnace]

Im a medium and a light player, and tbf whenever I get stunned on medium I do this really cool thing called, turning around and shooting, and in lobbies where my enemies have this cool bug called competence, when I stun them, they flick around and sneeze on me

[fleet brook]

I like having to be creative with my movement and DPS ya know the reason I picked light in the first place

[ornate furnace]

idk, if stun gun was a full CC like it is on heavies to every other class, then i'd be like, okay..maybe its a little busted, but the fact that medium has 360 range with it is kinda crazy

[ornate furnace]

creative, meanwhile 3 stack triple medium defib heal beam squads:

its creative till you open your eyes, and brother your eyes are closed rn

[fleet brook]

It is weird that light does just have an option to hard counter the class that's supposed to counter it

[fleet brook]

Damn sorry I'm not a meta slave

[ornate furnace]

if you want creative lets give light more things before nerfing everything else into the ground, idk, if light had more options that worked then i wouldnt be so opposed to this but its like, its already not viable and snatching what else it has is like taking candy from an infant

[fleet brook]

How dare you have creativity in your build when everyone else is meta slaving

[ornate furnace]

Im pointing out its not creative, the game isn't as creative as it could be, narratively its creative, but gameplay wise it isn't

[fleet brook]

How dare you adapt to nerfs rather than bitching about them like everyone else

How dare you find success with the shotgun don't you know everyone thinks it's bad

[ornate furnace]

🧏‍♂️

We get it you feel special with the shotgun

anything else you wanna tell us?

[fleet brook]

Nah you called me special

[ornate furnace]

no you called yourself creative, its not. Im saying light is underpowered, and that its role isn't as good as it could be with what its doing, its not as effective, or viable, and while we're on the topic of viable lets question, why is this meta? 🤨

[violet grotto]

did they nerf cloaking device?

[ornate furnace]

yeah

[violet grotto]

bra 💀

[fleet brook]

1 "legendary 1%"

2 light is good at 1v1s

3 you have a skill issue

4 because healing in a gun game especially fast healing is valuable especially if you can heal someone mid fight

5 bringing back a list teammate quickly then being able to go back to what you were doing seamlessly erases the mistake of losing the first teammate

[ornate furnace]

WHAT!? LIGHT IS GOOD AT 1V1S!?!?!?? AGAINST ANOTHER LIGHT MAYBE BUT HUH!?!?!?

[fleet brook]

Making it "safe" usually in videogames safe things are meta

[fleet brook]

They're also the fastest class meaning they choose when to engage

Stop picking bad times

[ornate furnace]

the easiest light 1v1 is if the opponent has no hands, or if its another light player, lights entire thing is "taking unfair fights"

[ornate furnace]

why can you heal in a gun game anyway lol

[fleet brook]

You can see the enemys health use your brain before just assuming since they're alone it's a free pick

Use cover

Lights choose when to start a fight

[fleet brook]

Tons of gun games have healing it's just usually slower and unstack able

Apex has lifeline

Cod has stim

Battlefield has the medic class

Etc

[ornate furnace]

yeah and people complain about all of them 💀

[fleet brook]

Complaining about lifeline pre season 12 in apex was a meme

And complaining about medic class in battlefield is laughable pre battlefield 2020 something

Lifeline still isn't even "strong" for her healing it's her self rez and her ability to kit her team which makes her strong so it isn't her healing that an issue

You're actually crazy if you thought people complained about lifelines heal

[ornate furnace]

people dont complain about heals in apex because it takes 2 fucking eons to heal, lifeline's heal also is slow too, yk how long it takes to heal someone in the finals, like a second 💀 it doesnt take forever

[fleet brook]

Damn it's almost like that was my point

[fleet brook]

Also untrue I picked things besides cods heal that were specifically not bitched about

[ornate furnace]

so you cherry picked, and yeah its fine, and even in your own examples it still cancer, like what? you think people still aren't running lifeline and doing res, and even lifeline has counterplay, unlike medium 💀 you can just shoot the person, you're still get so much value, what value does light have compared to medium or heavy, who do practically NOTHING to get value, the mesh shield nerf was slightly okay, but mesh shields value is when it gets shot, so your team can just easily fire back or push when the other team has to reload, your comparisons dont excacly take into consideration the value of these things

people still complain abt lifeline res because of the level of value it provides for a slight risk, but imo id rather deal w/ that then whatever the hell defib is

[ornate furnace]

Light gets the slightest bit of value and we riot like bruh 💀 meanwhile the defib just exists

[fleet brook]

The ability to slip in and out of a fight

Stealth

Better at setting there team up

Recon and intel

Also lifelines res is soft intintinf depending on where you start it at

Not even soft it's just full inting if you start the res in public it's also really loud

Lifelines value for the longest time was her ult

It used to be res when it had the shield it lost that

[ornate furnace]

its "stealth" is getting gutted through the wazoo, Recon and "intel" are things other classes can do, heavy can just throw down a motion senser on the point and it'll gey more value than 2 recon grenades, light???? setting its team up?? You can set your team up by not playing light lol

lights biggest set up is existing

[fleet brook]

Also hasn't defib been nerfed?

Like twice?

[ornate furnace]

thats a nerf? LOL?? It wouldve been a better nerf to just let glitch grenade cancel it, its still a denial of any effort, what has more effort, what has more value, a medium charging in and defibbing its teammate to continue a fight, or a light running in to the fray to get its teamates statue and run to just sit still in one spot risking its life

my light player running away to grab a trophy will never be as valuable as a defib, and it getting out of a fight is..okay?? fine?? wow thats wonderful...who cares??

it doesn't matter, you know what matters, literally any other character just poking, running away isn't value, you get like SLOW value from resing a trophy, or making your team coin back in, lights value is finite, its there for a split second and its hard as hell to get it, thats my argument, how much effort you need to put in for value

[fleet brook]

Okay you nerd defib and fcar into the ground what value does medium bring

[ornate furnace]

more than light apparently, I can explain it to you in 50 ways and you'll just not get it, atp you're blind, deaf and dumb

[fleet brook]

So true not just you disagreeing with whatever I say and then being dead wrong but calling me stupid

[ornate furnace]

they have turret, a healbeam, they have jump pads, mines, ziplines, they have an aps turret, nobody else can do that, the akm, the grenade launcher (Light bane) the famas, the riot shield, all these things still fuck lights, now unless you wanna tell me that Defib and fcar is all that medium has, like..do you really wanna go there? that without those two things medium is dogshit?

light, mediums healbeaming eachother, a medium healbeaming a heavy, like are we playing the same game??

[fleet brook]

You outed yourself as bad when you called lifeline (largely a troll pick for most of apex after losing her rez shield) good and people pick her for the rez

Should've known you had nothing of value to say when you said people picked lifeline for her rez and not her care package

[ornate furnace]

troll pick btw

🧏‍♂️ someones a dumbass!

[fleet brook]

Which season is that stupid

[ornate furnace]

the current season Lol

??? why would I go to an older season for the pickrate??

[fleet brook]

Re read my message until season 10-11 ya blind shit and do you even know why she's good

It's not her auto rez or her heal

It's because when they changed evo armors

Something I doubt you know about

After the change to golden knock down shields she's the only person with a self rez to the entire squad

You can even see her pickrate has gone up from prior seasons with the little green arrow

[ornate furnace]

why do we care about the season?? was that in a state around the game being the most balanced? The healing is op in this game, CURRENTLY, and lifeline is strong CURRENTLY, why are we going back to the past??? Wow guys black ops healing back then was so useless it was useless?? who cares 🤨

[fleet brook]

Lifeline isn't strong she is better than she was her healing is still bad

Her ult is still the best value in her kit

[ornate furnace]

bros grasping at straws to do everything to avoid admitting that heavy and medium are infinitely stronger than light, and that light needs to stop being nerfed or atleast reconsider its playstyle so it can actually be usefull in any scenario

[fleet brook]

You're trying to point stuff out without knowing what makes the character strong and you're plain incorrect

[ornate furnace]

what makes light strong is what other characters can do infinitely better, heavy and medium can be dps, heavy and medium can give info, heavy and medium can get picks, heavy and medium can do everryythinggg

[fleet brook]

You switched the topic with trying to call my previous arguments wrong when I'm right you just lack context of other games and using your inexperience as a way to say I'm wrong with just going pickrate went up must mean she op

[ornate furnace]

name one thing light is useful at doing than dying 😭, you can even use a guardian turret for info and LOS

[fleet brook]

I could you'd just bitch and say another class can also do it

[ornate furnace]

you literally cant mention anything outside of the things I just mentioned that heavy and medium can do better than light. . . but okay, this conversations done you're more than blind

[fleet brook]

Done you more than blind?

[wise briar]

Can we have arrows/bolts related weapons as new arsenals? That be sick

On 2nd thought. Nah. That would mean a single shot kill on the head.

[warped quiver]

the devs themselves talked about a bow & arrow during a podcast held in the second closed beta it was I think?

I know the combat team we have have talked about all manner of ideas before, and one of the guys is very, very, very keen to have a bow and arrow at some point in future, which I just think is inevitable at some point. And so more Melee weapons, I think that will definitely happen at some point. It's just a question of when and what. I do like the idea of a chainsaw, putting people into coins. That sounds pretty cool. But yeah, nothing to leak right now on that front. We'll see where we go. But it's absolutely our intent to keep expanding that stuff.
https://www.thefinals.wiki/wiki/Meet_The_Makersː_Direction_and_Design

[wise briar]

I was thinking about a full auto crossbow but not as high damage as u think ( like the Xbow in clash of clans ). Thats what i was going for but then i realized it would suck to have a 1 shot kill for bows on the head but im sure they'll figure it out to make it more balanced. Wow chainsaw would be sick too! But somehow, it still needs a reload animation since chainsaws are using fuels to power them. Im still hoping for a katana for M that could block 50% incoming bullets with the right click and a dash AOE slash infront of you when holding the left click

[warped quiver]

the katana with the blocking mechanic sounds cool

[ornate furnace]

I thought the sword was gonna have a katana skin huh

[warped quiver]

doesn't even have one already? not sure right now. but still i like that suggestion

[fading crater]

Catching and finishing escaping enemies, saving time by teleporting allies and cashboxes, making constant pressure, giving paranoia, safely stoping cashout steals with stun, countering shields, defib and other gadgets

The list go on and of couse you can live without light in team, but on those aspects medium and heavy are far behind, so dont forget who to call when you cant pierce threw double mesh shield or medium stop mediums from reviving each other

Every class can do greatly multiple roles that outrank others. Not seeing them doesnt mean they dont exist

[ornate furnace]

dont shoot the mesh shield, or use a glitch mine that medium has-

🤨 and "countering defib" yeah that 1 second interval but 9/10 nobody's gonna just defib while you're standing there they're either protected or they just get the last second defib off, and lets say you stun gun a defibbing medium, they just turn around and kill you ?? ?

[ripe vigil]

Saving time with the portal and stopping cash out with stun and countering double shield are great points however catching and finishing escaping enemies can be done just as well by mediums because if the enemy’s are so far away that you need a grapple or dash to get to them then there already to far and are not worth it and even if they were worth it bounce pad and zip should get you as far as you need to get to kill them. Giving paranoia is just not true nobody is getting ptsd because a light is in the lobby and you can very easily hear the invis (when it’s not bugged because embark doesn’t want to fix it) also you can rarely ever safely stop the cash out with stun against a good team unless you start with a flash bang because you’ll just be lasered instantly also the counter to defib can be done with any role that has acces to grenades and knows how to time it or flame grenade which requires zero timing

[ornate furnace]

And why are we nerfing lights gadgets if its gadgets are all it has 💀 your points are its reliant on its gadgets yet we're letting them be nerfed

[ripe vigil]

When did I say nerf lights

[ornate furnace]

and safely stopping a cashout my ass, theres like a 30% chance you get out of there alive after stopping the cashout, or they just rotate the cashout and someone else steals it

[ornate furnace]

not you I was talking abt him I was just agreeing w/ you, I forgot how the reply feature works sometimes

[ripe vigil]

Alr

[ornate furnace]

if you're paranoid by a light you're beyond cooked, lights are like spiders they're more scared of you than you are of them

[ripe vigil]

I think a buff to the sh19 and throwing knives would be nice since they are gravely underutilized I would say the dagger as well but it would be hard to buff without it becoming a absolutely one shoting machine that wipes teams in seconds also maybe buff grapple I don’t know it’s fun but not heavily used

[ornate furnace]

and I just dont see anything light can do that other classes cant, iml other than pressing W on an enemy but every class can ALSO DO THAT, is mobility is the only thing it actually really has but its not hard to laser a light it just isn't

[ornate furnace]

I think reverting dagger back to cb2 would be good, no aim assist and its more reliant on if you're sneaky and can actually get behind teams, light in close beta relied on its teamates giving some sort of a distraction for backstabs I think that was more healthy for the dagger than now, dagger just feels like what sword should be

[ripe vigil]

The problem with the dagger now is hit reg is inconsistent so many onshot hits don’t and ones that shouldn’t do so it’s not reliable and you’ll die if you mess up your one chance

[ornate furnace]

I think also lowering grapples CD might make it better, its solid for what it is but nobody uses it because its not that great for engagements only leaving a fight which is a 50/50 for lights

[ripe vigil]

Yes or give two uses

[ornate furnace]

The hit reg comes from latency and the server issues this game has with the server sided destruction, it would be hard to fix that so a counter measure would just be removing the charge off dagger and just making it a quick little backstab and not something that takes 2 years to do

[fading crater]

Stoping cash is actually really easy. Doing it very often very rarely die. Catching is good with dash on close combat actually, like buildings. U can close gap with narrow jumps, but extra speed also helped me stoping enemy team from starting last extra cashout. And paranoia really helps, because if enemy is desoriented and trying to shoot you, they cant shoot your allies at the same time. Its just teamwork and none other class can jump from 3 different angles that fast, taking that precious focus of enemy away

[ornate furnace]

Do you 3 stack

Answer that first, before anything else please, it would help seeing your perspective

[ripe vigil]

I know it’s the servers and it will likely never be good unless the servers change which is unlikely for a long time if ever or if they get a rework which I think is heavily needed but the problem is they have to be different than the sword Batan and sledge with already have most areas covered my only Idea is that it could get a damage buff and instead of doing 340 back stab damage you could charge it up to do bleed damage any side instead that takes longer to heal via making healbeam heal less for it or increasing regeneratation time for the damage done by bleed

[fading crater]

Well, then i can say none other class can do anything light cant. Light can revive, shoot, move and take dmg

[ornate furnace]

because a medium and a heavy dont need "teamwork" to be as annoying as they are, now in a competetive setting, they're even more annoying to deal with BECAUSE of teamwork, lights dont have that virtue though even with teamwork they can still die, get bombed, sneezed on, its an over excersion of effort that light requires that most classes dont thats the issue, not that it cant do these things its that these things

[ornate furnace]

yeah it can revive by getting itself killed, move intot he enemy teams rocket, and take 2billion damage, The best way to play light in this version of the game is by not playing light atall, and thats why it needs to be more viable

Lights most unique feature is blowing up into a billion coins- oh wait..other classes do that too

[fading crater]

Well, why should i waste time speaking to wall if one line does trick. Playing light, still winning. Skill issue

[ornate furnace]

face a good heavy or a good medium and you're literally put in a 30:80 lmfao

casual joe shouldn't be your point of reference, are you even in gold with the comp?

[ripe vigil]

I have to ask if you play comp and what rank because at higher ranks often times people will body block the stealer so you are forced to get in close to hit the stun often times leading to you not being able to escape as long as the opponents are competent

[ornate furnace]

Dude you also have that bug? competent opponents??

[fading crater]

I am, almost every game. Im just utilizing non existing favors of class

[ripe vigil]

?

[ornate furnace]

Nothing favors the class though 🤨 ?

[fading crater]

Plat elo with dash. Dash in, stun, dash out. Simple as that.

[arctic fog]

Light is meant to be a glass cannon. That's why it has cloak to avoid getting constantly beamed by opponents or dash and grapple to evade.

[ripe vigil]

It’s glass but not a cannon

[ornate furnace]

Why are the finals players scared of the dps being strong?? its a dps, why do we keep nerfing the things dps has, its meant to be a glass cannon but the cannon is already in shambles because it cant have shit

Heavy is just fat light, go play that lmfao

medium is just support light, go play that why would I be a glass cannon that has nothing when I can be a cannon that can do everything

[arctic fog]

That's true. Right now devs are more focused on nerfing meta weapons and gadgets rather than giving other gadgets and weapons a leg up into that meta

[ornate furnace]

while I do think light having more stuff would fix the issue of it having nothing rn, I also just think this game needs to reconsider what these classes have, like if mediums gonna be a support make it a support and not a jack of all trades

[ripe vigil]

I think the sh19 needs to be buffed by one damage per pellet or add one more pellet because two perfect shots and two punches to kill a heavy on a weapon that has poor range and only two bullets is obnoxious

[ornate furnace]

like the shotgun invis meta wasn't that bad, shotgun did need a nerf but thats how dps work, everything everyones saying about light and what it does applied to cb2-3 but ever since season 1 lights just been underpowered as shit

[unreal oar]

You guys need to let go of this limited Tank, DPS, Support mindset…. I spoke with someone in a match of mine and he said his first shooter was overwatch growing up—- I think I see the problem

[formal monolith]

( if you guys want balance help the dev's watch this video ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyB-jDsuZdY

[ripe vigil]

I would say this is somewhat true heavy is most definitely a tank mixed with a dps in the current meta at least with how prominent double shield is however I completely agree with you when it comes to light and medium which both are very diverse depending on your play style (obviously heavy can be diverse to but the devs have certainly leaned into his defensive ability with 3 different shields) I know you meant the three classes can have different jobs than just tank dps heal but when talking about the changes you would like to see to a game you have to have some sort of goal/standard to reference and the most common reference would be dps heal and tank and the light class right now is underpowered in all of those aspects so the community just wants it to accele at something

[arctic fog]

If they're going to nerf cloaking into the ground next update they might as well replace it with a specialization that's very offense and maybe even damaging but still have movement aspect

[wise briar]

Thats a different type of sword. Just like how the dagger and throwing knives are different.

[ripe vigil]

The Katana idea sound cool but I can’t imagine it either extremely broken or underpowered if we’re to have a aoe and blocking attack the chainsaw sounds sick maybe it could have a bleed affect that they could also give the dagger to buff the dagger as well

I would love if they added a nail gun that has very quick damage drop off and shoot off in a arc shape or a sword similar to a light saber or heat sword that can make cuts in walls doing less damage (obviously)

[arctic fog]

It'd have to be a pretty wacky season to fit those in tho

[wise briar]

Well it is a melee weapon. It has to be compensated for not having a ranged damage. What i meant for the aoe damage was it can hit multiple enemies infront of you but only few meters away ( like a horizontal slash ) instead of the strike through like the sword from the Light class. You're right about the dagger tho, it does seems like it needs some kind of an after effect. That weapon is so underrated not so many people are using it. But still, pros have been cheesing it for insta kills with the evasion skills i cant really say if its really that OP or UP.

[wise briar]

Wow light saber swords would look sick tho. I can imagine it would have higher damage on shields and turrets but i think it should have higher damage on the arena, just like how H were given the shotgun for arena damage.

[ripe vigil]

Sorry that’s what I meant I probably caused confusion when I said lower damage because I was talking about to players the environmental damage increase was what I was going for maybe cut out holes similar to the dematerializer but in parts or just regular destruction the increased damaged to shield sounds great and would be a good counter to shields which currently are only countered by glitch grenade maybe it could also have lower up front damage than the sword but have aditional burn damage that makes it so close to but still slightly less damage than it

Sorry for spamming But I also have a idea for a gadget/type of gadget aimed at arena destruction it would be a deployable similar to ram from siege (I only play siege when my friends force me to so I might have messed up the character) where you place down the little roomba and it destroys the floor below it or it could be in the form of a grenade that sends out something similar to breach stun ability from Val where theres a earthquake in front of it (it wouldn’t stun but the visual could be something like that it would just destroy the environment)

[vital kindle]

visual bug in weapon overview that AKM is supposed to have higher rate of fire than the fcar?

[sand monolith]

@hexed olive

[hexed olive]

love that i got a ping in this servwr and immediately guessed it was you

[sand monolith]

[arctic fog]

Why

[fleet meadow]

u should buff the m11 and xp54 and then debuff the stun gun

[winged galleon]

They should buff the pyro nade honestly best weapon in the game

[sleek pond]

if it is the best why should they buff it?

[winged galleon]

Things can always be better. There’s always room for improvement

[sour cloak]

whats meta for light?

[supple oracle]

Xp-54 needs a nerf lmao, not a buff, that thing is already a laser beam

but until light gets buff to his other gadgets and lacking weapons (Double barrel, 93r, dagger, etc) unfortunately best to keep it the way it is

[reef sage]

Lh1 needs a small buff: glowing sights

[winged galleon]

Lh1 is my favourite light weapon apart from the sniper and dagger but like those other weapons I’m only good at them half the time oh no I’m only good at light half the time

[clear sphinx]

Isn't DB already good? I mean, just position yourself and you'll get a free kill

[mellow lodge]

db sucks because heavies exist

[lilac swift]

Yeah I mean if light ever becomes too strong the xp54 will be the first thing to be tuned, it's more consistent than any other light weapon bc of the dps and being effective at any range

[sand monolith]

Lh1 needs nerfs it’s the best weapon in the game

[left marsh]

not playing light

[exotic hare]

Cloaking should take longer to run out when stood still. Like for stealth or evasion in general.

[final lotus]

@sand monolith rather than be toxic why don't you discuss what you don't like, 90% of the time I see you in the server all you do is shit on people for wanting stuff balanced.

[sand monolith]

https://tenor.com/view/this-peaks-memes-gif-16921095133411355177

Ok I will go through every point and give my personal opinion on it hold on

[final lotus]

Let's discuss one at a time

[sand monolith]

OK the throwing knives one is good

[final lotus]

Don't barrage me with 20 points

[sand monolith]

The dagger one is kinda bad imo. I don’t think the dagger needs any number buffs. It would be a good weapon if it had the QoL of holding charge (which you did say) and also if it like actually worked consistently

[final lotus]

I played with the dagger a lot, the slow ass time it takes to perform a backstab is what makes it wildly inconsistent, because during 700ms, so much movement and bs happens, not to mention it gives enemies a window of opportunity to turn around when you begin a stab, and getting behind and close to people without them knowing you're there is extremely difficult.

[sand monolith]

Yeah but with dash it’s insane. You can literally just teleport behind people and they’re dead

[final lotus]

You can do that regardless of the buff I propose, and not to mention, the positioning and timing is narrow, it's not something that can be pulled off easily, which is why you see it way less often than sword.

[sand monolith]

It is a one shot so it shouldn’t be super easy to pull off imo. I don’t really think dagger should ever be buffed with the point of being as viable as the other weapons because of how incredibly frustrating it would be to play against if it was good

It should probably just be a niche map pick for close quarters

But it should definitely be fixed