people dont play dark because of the confsuig mechanics
#endgame-lounge
wintry ridge
scenic patrol
Central job mechanic for 2 expansions
Yeah let's delete it
wintry ridge
with DA and the mana BS makes it just pretty lame
stable basin
a lot of people are stupid
wintry ridge
further
torn kindle
That sounds like a people problem and not a job problem.
errant kayak
i thought people play drk because it looks cool
wintry ridge
tanks should not have ciounter play or pentalty
scenic patrol
For saying that
stable basin
lacks damage ๐ค
wintry ridge
outside of runing drit shield oath etc
wintry ridge
more emnity for sacing 20 percent damage and getting a def buff
scenic patrol
torn kindle
actually using tank stance
errant kayak
tbn: am i a joke to you?
scenic patrol
Warrior is fucking trash in mitigating Final Omega
wintry ridge
so for tanks with xpac coming we will have 4
stable basin
tank stance comfy in teraflare
wintry ridge
so they need to rework them to either a) make all 4 viable
or b) make 2 MT viable 2 OT viable
torn kindle
man it's almost like that's what they're doing!
wet stag
drk
Literally be the turtle tank
"Lacks defensive buffs"
errant kayak
implying they aren't viable right now
wintry ridge
with melee dps, NIN DRG SAM MNK shoudl all give same raid utility and debuff on boss so you can play whatever you like
wet stag
scenic patrol
Anyhow muh dude, stop browsing reddit to form opinions
wintry ridge
same with BRD DNC and MCH for refreshes and utility
and same with healers and same with casters
errant kayak
oh yes lets make all jobs provide the exact same thing
wintry ridge
not the exact same thing, they will play different
errant kayak
wintry ridge
but forcing jobs out for lacking utility is just not good
wet stag
They already bring similar rdps to the average group
errant kayak
you do realize how ridiculous you sound right now right?
wintry ridge
its a stigma thing and because of parsing and logs
people want higher parses so they wont bring something that wont increase the log damage
torn kindle
only noobs force out jobs for reasons besides already having one on the team.
wintry ridge
ots truth
errant kayak
not all people parse
stable basin
where's that clip of momo saying drk is meta in ucob
scenic patrol
WHM is currently the worst job in the game and even then, it has some strengths that are unique to it
wintry ridge
is always because no utility for example
if you make melee interchangeable you get rid of that BS
scenic patrol
No
wintry ridge
same for healers casters and ranged
scenic patrol
There will always be a meta
stable basin
I'm basically a DRK onetrick and the one time I've seen someone complain about what I play they got mercilessly mocked
And it turns out
DRK is OP in ultimate
wintry ridge
its the stigma and effects a lot of players from raiding
errant kayak
no one's complaining
torn kindle
Meta is a constantly changing thing. Attempting to "break" the meta just replaces it with another meta.
wintry ridge
you queue up and get instakicked as a SAM BLM WHM etc
torn kindle
OF is full of idiots.
steady pebble
i've never seen anyone kicked from a duty finder group because of their job
scenic patrol
Wut?
stable basin
The forums think it happens all the time
People who play the game never see it happen
๐ค
errant kayak
there's a thick line between what you read and what actually happens
wintry ridge
if you have a top raid guild / FC you can take 2 warriors 2 whm and 4 SAM and clear everything
errant kayak
THICK LINE
wintry ridge
player skill will always trump meta
torn kindle
I've seen people on the forums wanting Balmung to not be congested simply because they aren't on there.
scenic patrol
With echo sure
errant kayak
what even is your argument now
wintry ridge
but the majority of the base is not in those types of FCs
scenic patrol
You won't clear with this comp week 1
wintry ridge
thus they get the boot for playig something off meta
not talking about week 1
week 1 progression comp is always
errant kayak
the majority of the base doesn't go for week 1 clears
the majority of the base ain't even raiding
errant kayak
yes, so?
wintry ridge
it branches off from that as raid gets geared
wintry ridge
we arent talking about week 1 BS
we are talking about the stigma and what 85 percent of the players use
errant kayak
to be frank, i don't know what you're talking about
wet stag
I can't believe calculator got added to the game
stable basin
Dunno if I'll make it but I'm going for week 1 eden savage on drk
wintry ridge
SAMs BLMs WHMs etc dont get in or get instakicked because they are off meta
errant kayak
the stigma exists yes, what's you're argument
wintry ridge
that dps and tanks and casters should be interchangable
errant kayak
i've never seen a sam,blm, or whm get kicked from a pf
steady pebble
errant kayak
unless it's a parse party, which most of the time the job will be prelocked
stable basin
If you do want to parse on blm just make a pf yourself
errant kayak
what statement are you trying to make, that this stigma is bad and the devs should make all jobs within the same class provide the same utility?
wet stag
Not to mention blm is meta in some comps lol
Double caster is legit
Well smn/blm is legit
brazen crater
I haven't been kicked from endgame stuff as SAM
wet stag
Oh does it
scenic patrol
To make BLM good
wet stag
Til
wintry ridge
melee should all offer or divide slash and pierce etc along with other utility, casters and ranged should all also same
so it comes down to player preferance
and player skill
wet stag
You mean like it already does 
stable basin
"take slashing away from nin" "melee should all offer slash or pierce" ๐ค
scenic patrol
Player skill is already valued over job choice
errant kayak
^
wintry ridge
lot of players that play DRG for example would love to play a SAM or other class same with NIN, lot of NIN out there want to play SAM or another class
errant kayak
nah
scenic patrol
And tbh, I'd rather get a player that is flexible
errant kayak
i like nin
wintry ridge
if you dont see that
errant kayak
thx
wet stag
How dare you enjoy playing nin
errant kayak
lot of players that play DRG for example would love to play a SAM or other class same with NIN, lot of NIN out there want to play SAM or another class
wet stag
You're only supposed to play nin to be a meta slave
brazen crater
shit u rite
errant kayak
source plz
wintry ridge
then you are either some bubble boy or clueless. Sure there are peopel that like all the classes. For different reasons. BUt what if the class you loved had a hard time finding stuff for endgame because they lacked a debuff or a form of utility?
so why not just make it so more of the classes offer the same things that affect the rdps of group so more classes are vilable in the meta
stable basin
What if I onetricked a class with no utility and got asked to join two different ultimate statics on it
brazen crater
then congrats
wintry ridge
you are talking about the exception not the rule
wet stag
What if I one tricked a class with no utility and was in 3 ultimate statics on it ๐
scenic patrol
What's your raiding experience aside from reading the OF again?
wintry ridge
ive cleared everything
wet stag
Is it time to break out the w word
torn kindle
!whois @wintry ridge
wintry ridge
and everything is maxed out all my jobs
storm frostBOT
wet stag
Oh that's not the w word I was thinking of
scenic patrol
And yet you say DRK has bad mitigation
torn kindle
Character name?
wintry ridge
its not "bad" its just not as good
wet stag
Lmao what
wintry ridge
why in logs do you see PLD and WAR more represented
wet stag
Dark mind and tbn say hello
wintry ridge
and DPS being higher on those 2?
wet stag
Drk dps beats pld
scenic patrol
Warrior is naturally skewed to be higher
stable basin
gee if only I had some mitigation skills https://gfycat.com/veneratedcriminalcaracal
wintry ridge
not on the logs i see
errant kayak
because drk is harder to play
errant kayak
doesn't mean people like to play it
wintry ridge
but lets face it it can have better phys
errant kayak
@torn kindle oh and rip, ignored
wet stag
Just tbn on cd lol
torn kindle
wet stag
Take 0 damage
stable basin
drk is pretty comfy even in o10s
scenic patrol
Physical CDs is barely relevant in high damage intake fights
wet stag
Dark mind for exaflares 
stable basin
If you had one tank eat all seven tail ends, DRK would take the least damage
wintry ridge
at its core
scenic patrol
Oh shit I can CD autos every 90 secs with RI
wintry ridge
casual high end and mid range players
torn kindle
...and then paladin overtakes at gret parses
stable basin
unless you count the fact that it records full dmg against LD but 0 against hallow
wintry ridge
vs what looks the coolest (because this kind of matters to peopel lol)
wet stag
Yeah I was gonna say
torn kindle
If I'm forced to play a class then I'm not playing with those people.
errant kayak
^
wintry ridge
DRK would be the most played minus DA mana BS and maybe needs 1 more Osht button
scenic patrol
stable basin
DRK would be stupid op with another mitigation button lol
wintry ridge
I like DRK, I think its the coolest tank just not in as good a place as war and PLD.
wet stag
I mean ultimately it's about clearing the content isn't it
I went war in ucob even though I don't enjoy it because it's better for prog
Bc it's so braindead lol
errant kayak
nothing is every going to be completely balanced
wintry ridge
exactly and what would you have wanted to play
if all 3 were viable MY for progression
MT
wet stag
Drk, but I already played drk in uwu
scenic patrol
Fuck MT/OT
stable basin
I went DRK in UCOB because I like having a big sword
wet stag
Too big brain for me
wintry ridge
look im making a point for the majority of base, not just the top 5 percent of game
i get once you funnel things change
steady pebble
your point for the majority of the playerbase is wrong anyway
majority plays what they want
errant kayak
look im making a point for the majority of base
not one person here is agreeing with your arguments
wet stag
Also drk is in a very good spot
steady pebble
and don't fucking care about the meta
wet stag
So
wintry ridge
its like being a millionaire or billionaire and even if you were casual and not wealthy once, you forget what its like for the average joe after a year or two
stable basin
There's one plummet htat comes right when C&S comes off cd, pretty annoying cause I have to TBN on that gcd instead
wintry ridge
thats just normal
wet stag
Kael doesn't raid
wintry ridge
but its hurtign the game
wintry ridge
No I understand them just fine
torn kindle
I'm a pretty filthy casual player too.
steady pebble
Most people literally do not care about your job
zinc vortex
the average person doesn't even raid lmao
torn kindle
My last serious raiding experience was final coil
wintry ridge
the average person wanting to raid,
torn kindle
with a bit of dabbling in A1S and O9S
steady pebble
Will raid on the job they enjoy
zinc vortex
the majority of the playerbase literally doesn't give a shit
scenic patrol
Avarage player is using perfom in Limsa as its most hardcore activity
steady pebble
so your point is moot
scenic patrol
Lul no
wintry ridge
again these people getting kicked or forced to play classes they really dont want to play
zinc vortex
ah i see we're moving the goalposts now eh
steady pebble
No...they won't
steady pebble
Most PF groups are going to take what they can get
wintry ridge
it doesnt matter
scenic patrol
You haven't talked to casual players if you think even 20% of them want to raid
torn kindle
The only kicking I see is for duplicate classes and they don't want to change
mainly for byakko when he was relevant.
wintry ridge
ive seen wayyyy to many groups
say we need a bard sorry blackmage
or sorry SAM we need a DRG
and kick that person when one came into queue
and in SAM case, its far more popular than DRG
scenic patrol
I've tried raiding without a refresh bot, it feels like shit as a healer
wet stag
Yeah kicking a blm when you need a brd if you don't already have mch is fair
Bc healers are gonna run out of mp
wintry ridge
SO if DNC MCH and BRD all have refresh etc then you could use all the 3 and its preference
stable basin
Only time I remember getting kicked from a PF is when I came in on RDM to try to carry some random dude in o10s who already had a RDM in the party
wintry ridge
same with casters
stable basin
But he was barking up the wrong tree there
wet stag
Like this guy is barking up the wrong tree here
scenic patrol
If I am gonna rank importance of having certain stuff
Slashing>Refresh>STR buff
wet stag
Yeah
scenic patrol
That's the baseline
stable basin
And was doing week 1 tank damage on monk in o9s so obviously didn't understand what he was doing
wintry ridge
i mean there are really only 8 slots
and we are getting 2 more classes so metas form without classes offering more utility. Being a bit more inclusive would be good for the game I think
zinc vortex
ill consider it
wintry ridge
or take it a differen tdirection, have all the class have a super unique buff
that in the end balances rdps
point is more classes represented end game and expanse of the meta
thats all
regal halo
The job stigmas are caused by the lack of public's knowledge on their own jobs, and in return, the so called "meta" is shaped by it - it has nothing to do with how bad the jobs are considering it's already widely considered viable.
If you can't handle any job well, then it's your problem.
wintry ridge
lets see like pierce
if SAM and DRG had it
who would you bring?
or could both come now?
wet stag
The best 8
wintry ridge
equal skill
wet stag
The most skilled 8
wintry ridge
equal gear
scenic patrol
I want to clear raids while retaining the min reqs
scenic patrol
Of course it's gonna be meta comp
regal halo
Dude, my static ran SAM NIN BRD RDM. Tell me why did that matter.
wintry ridge
you'd take the DRG to increase rdps
errant kayak
so i'm not the one to call out something like this, and I don't want to start a witch hunt but...
wintry ridge
again exception not the rule
torn kindle
but you didn't say there was a DRG
errant kayak
you say you've cleared all fights
errant kayak
i can't find 1 single log except for o1s
wintry ridge
I have 3 accounts
I will load up my other acocunt on this
account gah
I started playing this game in London when it launched
errant kayak
ah, that explains, sorry for the misunderstanding
wintry ridge
switched in NA when I moved back to NY
and have another account from my time in Okinawa haha
zinc vortex
wintry ridge
so with 2 more classes coming and 8 slots, having more viable in meta
would be cool
thats all I am saying
zinc vortex
"more viable"
wintry ridge
because if this continues
zinc vortex
wintry ridge
you will have 8 slots with like 18 -20 classes by the time the game ends
wintry ridge
can lessen the hurt by making some of the synergy redundant on the different classes
wet stag
I just looked up top speed kills of final omefa
errant kayak
wintry ridge
the peopel in top guilds
torn kindle
The plot thickens
wet stag
Then 21sr
wet stag
Yeah but you're talking about meta
zinc vortex
...
wet stag
Which only applies to those people anyway
wintry ridge
those guys skill cap are way above most of us
wintry ridge
well myself at least
zinc vortex
LMAO
stable basin
๐ค
wintry ridge
not sure where you all stack
zinc vortex
wet stag
There's a whm in 5th and 8th
errant kayak
i love this conversation
wintry ridge
I mean yes if you really want to PLAY SAM, you can form your own static recruit post draft, keep at it until you get a group and hope they arent wiping for hours .. sure you can do that
zinc vortex
probably got kicked on SAM or whatever having shit logs and blames the meta
wintry ridge
but yes it is an issue, and a lot of people get pigeonholed into playing a class they woudl rather not play
wet stag
Bruh the strawmanning is incredible
stable basin
I heard playing SAM with no vit melds is a very good and wholesome way to clear UCOB
zinc vortex
wet stag
errant kayak
scenic patrol
errant kayak
๐ค
zinc vortex
wintry ridge
on NA, I just got nack from London
vernal swallow
scenic patrol
wintry ridge
would you like my entire chat log haha
tripplicity you can see my london trip ๐ on IG
scenic patrol
No, I want to see your ultimate logs
zinc vortex
i dont care about your london trip wtf
wet stag
I wanna know the character you cleared ucob on
zinc vortex
how does that help your argument in any way
scenic patrol
Show us the parses
regal halo
Ok, Vedicc, you may want to stop trolling.
wintry ridge
anyway 330 am here in NY, going to bed, go on my IG look up my character and see the parses. Also after this maint this week I will knock out all the same stuff with my NA account on my static.
errant kayak
k hon, night, don't sleep too late
wintry ridge
I will parse 3 tanks and 3 melee to prove the point since you refuse to believe this is an actual issue
wet stag
Ok
scenic patrol
Wut?
wet stag
What's the character
errant kayak
oh and for all of you who don't want to go flipping through this person's chat
wintry ridge
I gave you the info scroll up and look it up lmao. nite
errant kayak
wet stag
Two first names lmao
wintry ridge
go on tripp or sinius
zinc vortex
!charlogs Gilgamesh William Ryan
wet stag
Very nice logs
storm frostBOT
zinc vortex
regal halo
Alright. Enough.
scenic patrol
regal halo
one more time. @wintry ridge
If you want to prove your case, please present them in a way that will convince anyone, otherwise continuing like this is just going to ask for trouble.
scenic patrol
Cleared all content btw
regal halo
Otherwise, drop this topic.
hybrid rapids
stone ledge
boo-le-an?
torn kindle
uhhh I don't think that's appropriate for this channel
regal halo
keru, please don't.
errant kayak
i'll drop it, mb
barren prawn
to lighten the mood
velvet nova
So just so I know going forward in terms of difficulty it would be o10s<o11s yes?
stable basin
11 is harder but less of a jump than 9 to 10 imo
boreal edge
velvet nova
Healers on the line strat face away from the orb correct?
dull radish
no
the source of the knockback is the ranged dps, so they face away from them, which happens to be facing towards the orb
velvet nova
Makes sense
dull radish
no need to do anything but keep hitting the orb throughout the phase with line strat, as tank/healer. Everything just gets resolved for you
velvet nova
I appreciate you explaining, I've done it many times, but info on what healers do was very limited for some reason.
dull radish
that's because there's nothing to do~ haha
but yeah, fair enough
the only people that have to actually do anything is the melee dps/caster need to hit anti-knockback
velvet nova
unless poor brd at C then he/she is off for a ride
dull radish
well, still don't have to do anything haha
unless you knock them too close to where the tanks/healers get knocked to, then they either need to move slightly to group up with the tanks/healers/melee, or move away to not get hit by water
either way, pretty trivial movement if needed at all
foggy latch
I'm looking at fflogs from different statics, and a lot of them have a bard and a MCH, is that normal? I thought they were both kind of support classes?
lyric summit
there's no support classes
foggy latch
ah
lyric summit
brd has a lot of utility, plus damage scales off crit, so with it being the end of the expansion it's one of the strongest dps
mch got buffed in like 4.5 and it competes with smn for the last slot
foggy latch
why does the end of the expansion affect the crit? is it because they (the bards) basically all have BIS ?
lyric summit
you just have way more crit in i400 than in i340 at the start of the expansion
foggy latch
ah i see
lyric summit
higher ilvl = more secondaries
polar iron
Is it still possible to find people willing to run the savage raids
foggy latch
gotcha
polar iron
Or are they dead conte t
foggy latch
thx
torn kindle
crit scales semi-exponentially, since more crit makes crit hit harder and more often.
(i think that's the right term)
lyric summit
you probably can if you look hard enough, make a static with other savage first timers, put up practice PFs etc @polar iron
it's been out for 8 months so people just kinda cleared or got bored a while ago
so if you wanted a group it'd most likely be new players
polar iron
Yeah fine by me guess i'll try making my own
A lot of new players are coming still and i think many of us want to experience the content still
- im a BLM so its probably hard for me to find a group in the first place for anything endgame
lyric summit
job doesn't matter
if people lock you out of content just because of your job they're bad
polar iron
A lot of the static advertisements or such ive seen never feature anything else than the usual nin drg brd smn or whatever it is
torn kindle
People think that having meta jobs will make them do better. ๐คท
lyric summit
that's the most common comp but that doesn't mean it's the only viable one
polar iron
Yeah, i get that damage buffs and whatnot make encounters have more breathing room in a sense though
But id rather learn it properly
Well in my case i have to since my DPS relies on how well i know it lol
lyric summit
that also depends on the group, just because you have all the utility and raid buffs in the world but don't know how to time them or profit off of them doesn't make you better than a group of good players on nonmeta jobs with like one raid buff
polar iron
Yeah
bold jungle
Don't know if this should be here since it's endgame related or questions and help, but... Anyway to look for linkshells for savage raiding and all that?
polar iron
Theres #494379215420915712 here, one in balance discord too i guess, and you could make a post/find one on reddit or put up a party finder or just shout in big cities
bold jungle
Cool, I'll try that. It's mainly for the next expansion, I wanna get into ''hardcore'' raiding and see how it is. Thanks!
polar iron
Yeah, ive seen a lot of people look for additions to their groups in reddit and party finder
wet stag
@torn kindle quadratically
Crit chance is linear, crit damage is linear
Put them together and you get quadratic
torn kindle
:o
torn kindle
Ok.
wet stag
!whologs @wintry ridge
storm frostBOT
wet stag
Nice logs
errant kayak
oh no let's not do this again 
scenic patrol
he did clear Alphascape savage on said alt
wintry ridge
!whologs
storm frostBOT
wintry ridge
umm no .. and you just showed your true colors
scenic patrol
what true color?
wintry ridge
you are just a sour cry baby and some internet leetist tough guy, just going to mute you
hate toxic people
scenic patrol
lul
wintry ridge
much better
zinc vortex
here we go again 
wintry ridge
anyway, found out more info about Gunbreaker from JP site
but not sure about translation
wintry ridge
wonder if they will pigeonhole 2 tanks to OT 2 tanks to MT
or if warrior will just be defacto MT and other 3 fight for OT lol
guessing the latter
warrior MT 4 life Warrior Fantasy 14
torn kindle
I think that's a bit presumptuous without seeing the changes in the next live letter
I for one would like to see WAR not be the 'best' tank for once.
wintry ridge
ya same, I'd like to see all viable as MTs
just not sure how they would balance that .. DRK and PLD would need compleye rebalancing and overhaul
torn kindle
They will anyway since they use both MP and TP in their rotation.
Same for RDM and BRD kinda.
wintry ridge
RDM is in a weird spot competing with BLM and SMN for raid slot
wintry ridge
?
torn kindle
Tank swaps for tank busters. ๐
wintry ridge
Ya but the majority of uptime is on MT
errant kayak
rdm fulfills a completely different role than blm and smn
wintry ridge
hence OT is usally one that can do some extra damage or offer raid utility. Warrior is MT uptime because they burst and have the kit for it
thorn bear
and guess what, you swap aggro quite often in some fights, there is no "main" tank
errant kayak
blm and smn's kit have literally nothing in common
wintry ridge
2 tanks gone 3 healers gone
4 remaining slots usually 3 ranged 1 melee or 2 melee 2 ranged
brd / caster for example
so competion for that slot
torn kindle
what do you mean gone?
wintry ridge
like slot taken
8 slots
4 go to healers and tanks
leaves 4 slots for 3 casters 2 ranged and 4 melee
torn kindle
Also I've rarely seen 1 melee 3 ranged comps.
wintry ridge
its rare
torn kindle
at least in parse padding runs.
wintry ridge
ive seena few
errant kayak
gotta run brd+mch for that solo ast uwu
wintry ridge
usually its BRD and a caster with DRG and monk or NIN
errant kayak
i'm still amazed
cold ember
in pugs 2 caster 1 range and 1 melee is ok
wintry ridge
for caster slot
sweet blade
Yes, thats typically how teams work
torn kindle
Progression
errant kayak
why would you not
thorn bear
in pugs or prog
sweet blade
RDM can chain rez and heal
thorn bear
in pugs comp literally don't matter
ocean forge
RDM has quick rez, which allows progressing groups to see just one more mechanics
sweet blade
Also some people like playing RDM
wintry ridge
not talking for progression
those comps usually the BLM or SUN switches
same person
until they get on farm and they switch back to SMN usually
sweet blade
*SMN
wintry ridge
eh to a degree unless they are going for world best parse
thorn bear
if its weeklies getting the clear is number 1 lol
errant kayak
"farm"
cold ember
yeah
errant kayak
"world best parse"
thorn bear
if it's for a parse then you just run the best possible comp
errant kayak
"incoherent speech"
wintry ridge
well if you are farming content really the only fun you have is trying to get your damage highest and logged haha
sweet blade
Or your farming for gear
wintry ridge
transitioning from progression to "farm" sure
stable basin
DRK is funny with the TP removal thing because it's the one physical class that would notice absolutely no difference whatsoever if you just straight-up deleted TP
wintry ridge
after you gear out mains i'm sure people gear up the alt
so you'll see some off meta comps with the same players
sweet blade
So what is the point your trying to make with all this?
wintry ridge
ya TP is strange wish they would just roll it into MP / class abilities
stable basin
Well they are removing it in ShB
wintry ridge
original point RDM weird spot end game
cold ember
drk will prob be burning through more mp without tp?
sweet blade
RDM is fine
errant kayak
rdm is in a great spot
wintry ridge
If you wanted to amin one you'd be in for progression then back to BLM or SMN
cold ember
it will be 1 less dark arts i think
thorn bear
rdm does its job fine
errant kayak
embolden: am i a joke to you?
sweet blade
Most people wont care if you play RDM
thorn bear
if you want high parses then sure go smn
sweet blade
And wont make you switch
wintry ridge
except when they jump in
thorn bear
but rdm is perfectly fine for non speedrun/99th parse farming groups
wintry ridge
and get ROFLstomped
scenic patrol
RDM has a better raid buff anyhow
stable basin
Single-target TP consumption is negligible for most classes so if they only make AoE skills cost TP you change pretty much nothing
sweet blade
Who gets Rolfstomped, RDM?
cold ember
pile of cats ur forgetting that darkside prevents mp restoration
stable basin
That's the common guess on what they're going to do with TP removal
wintry ridge
i saw the youtube video haha
RDM was trying to get highest parse of RDM and jumped into a mechanic
stable basin
I don't see why that's relevant
wintry ridge
and died lol
stable basin
If you made single-target free then DRK notices 0 difference
Because it's already free
cold ember
yeah but if it has a cost then wat
sweet blade
Ah, so a single RDM made a mistake so the entire class is bad?
stable basin
So make single-target free for physical jobs
errant kayak
i mean, then again should the jobs be punished for aoe?
sweet blade
Also wtf does a random youtube video have to do with anything
wintry ridge
or make broad assumptions
so all these groups not bringing RDM, there is no reason then
its just coincidence ..
got it
errant kayak
the one thing i'm more concerned about is that if they don't make physical skills cost tp
sweet blade
Ah, I see whats going on now
jolly sluice
why does everyone assume weaponskills are going to cost MP? That's ridiculous
errant kayak
then casters will be punished for casting too much, although that rarely does happen
wintry ridge
eh WS system is a bit antiquated
thorn bear
there isn't a reason lmao
wintry ridge
for a modern MMO
sweet blade
They'll probably just be free like in PvP
jolly sluice
Yeah, that
wintry ridge
having 2 resources plus a gauge and combo system
stable basin
They won't make physical skills cost TP because they're removing TP ๐ค
errant kayak
so it's a weird balance
wintry ridge
is just too much
sweet blade
And only have certain skills cost MP
wintry ridge
they should just remove TP
sweet blade
They are
errant kayak
they are
wintry ridge
oh they are?
jolly sluice
yes!!
sweet blade
Holy shit
jolly sluice
wintry ridge
oh sweet then thats perfect lol
wintry ridge
was just reading about why TP was bad didn't see anything about removal
thorn bear
rdm isn't brought sometimes for numerous reasons, but the job is fine lol
wintry ridge
the job is fine ... I agree, just tons more groups for one reason or other picking SMN or BLM over it for caster slot by a huge margin
thorn bear
because people think that taking the meta comp will make them good
also
people find rdm boring
errant kayak
i'll take my brd+mch ty
wintry ridge
thats why I said weird place, the caveat to that statement then for end game non progression raiding
errant kayak
i need my crits and vuln up
wintry ridge
thats a crappy defined role then
errant kayak
and the most fabulous
thorn bear
no it isn't
sweet blade
Prog is super important
thorn bear
not every job need to be a jack of all trades best at everything job
wintry ridge
original point all classes should be represented more evenly end game
sweet blade
Thats impossible
jolly sluice
unfortunately, not possible and would lead to a very boring game if they did
thorn bear
and its also impossible
wintry ridge
wow did a good job of it
sweet blade
Wtf, no they didnt
sweet blade
Wow has some of the worst class balancing for MMOs
wintry ridge
like DRG for example is like perma slotted into groups
errant kayak
mchs are very black and white
sweet blade
Go ask a ret Paladin what they think of WoWs balance
wintry ridge
that shouldn't be a thing when you have all other melee competing for 1 slot for example
torn kindle
Isn't Feral Druid in the red right now for WoW?
errant kayak
i have yet to see anything in between
wintry ridge
class balance and who gives what buffs / defuffs 2 seperate things
sweet blade
Not really
torn kindle
I'd say they're somewhat the same thing.
sweet blade
Some classes provide utility while some bring more damage
Thats what is called Class balance
wintry ridge
say DRG SAM and MNK all gave pierce and crit buff, the difference was tether vs slashing and brotherhood
who would you bring for the slot
is what I am getting at
sweet blade
All of them can clear the content
wintry ridge
i get that with high enough skill 4 warriors 2 whms and 2 BLM
can clear content
minus a few cheese fights
talking overall with the data we have and classes that are represented more than others
by a large margin
thorn bear
you know why
wintry ridge
that design is not good for the game
thorn bear
because 99.9% of people
think that meta will help them in some significant way
when it won't
wintry ridge
so if you give more classes utility and buff / debuff options
sweet blade
Meta means nothing if you dont have the skill
wintry ridge
and the difference being different small utility
thorn bear
and sheep will follow along
wintry ridge
it would open it up more
errant kayak
just git gud
sweet blade
Youre talking about the 1% of the 1%
wintry ridge
and thats something that cannot ever really be balanced entirely if they are trying to balance pvp and pve .. if they gear the game around pve only maybe ..
errant kayak
imagine getting a high parse without solo balance
wintry ridge
i dont pvp in this game so i dont know how that scene is
sweet blade
Who are irrelevant to the majority of the community
wintry ridge
not the skills
thorn bear
gear doens't matter
wintry ridge
your base unless all pvp is removed off base
then i guess this game is just balanced around pve
like i said i dont pvp
sweet blade
PvP and PvE have absolutely no overlap
wintry ridge
but if its just pve then it should be very easy
thorn bear
you don't raid either apparently if you think homogenizing every job is a good idea
errant kayak
imagine balancing jobs being easy
sweet blade
Haven't you only been back in the game for 2 weeks after taking a 2 year break?
wintry ridge
homogenizing is not what I am advocating
thorn bear
dragoon is only necessary because it gives piercing
wintry ridge
like give 1-2 more classes pierce
errant kayak
but mah tether
wintry ridge
then see what it does to meta
wintry ridge
tether is just ok not a biggie
thorn bear
its not just cool
wintry ridge
so take some spread it around
wintry ridge
the delineating factor should be minor class specific utility like tether etc
where some classes have it other have something different
but spread the important ones around more
slash in NIN SAM WAR
thorn bear
wintry ridge
pierce can be DRG and something else for example
wintry ridge
monk meta lol
sweet blade
DNC will probably be slashing
scenic patrol
why the fuck does Slashing need to be even more BS
thorn bear
why are you talking about meta changing gameplay when you don't even raid my guy
scenic patrol
imagine wanting to have even more restrictive meta comps because of debuffs
wintry ridge
I do raid
torn kindle
They could also just remove resistances entirely. ๐คท
scenic patrol
no he clearly raids with his no logs "alt"
thorn bear
how tf you already i380 minimum
cold ember
yeah or make all the melee classes do phys vuln instead?
sweet blade
Wouldnt that make TA redundant?
wintry ridge
on NA yes, I was in London playing EU for a bit but not full time. I was raising capital for team rubicon and building solar grids in Tanzania and a few other countries
but like I said
thorn bear
that has nothing to do with what I've asked
wintry ridge
this applies not to raiding for the 1 percent
cold ember
ah Ta is vuln for both mg and physica3l though?
wintry ridge
but the like 90 percent of the people the logged content
thorn bear
no this only applies to the 1%
wintry ridge
its literally the same 9 classes
sweet blade
Well its damage resistance down
errant kayak
right, 2 years ago
scenic patrol
the fuck does your irl shit have anything to do with your extremely questionable skill
thorn bear
comp doens't apply
errant kayak
well to start
thorn bear
to randoms
wintry ridge
log after log after log
wintry ridge
BRD has and will always be perma slot
thorn bear
no it isn't
wintry ridge
and thats cool I'm ok with that
wintry ridge
if they balance MCH cool and I guess DNC now too
thorn bear
and my uwu group runs mch
errant kayak
who needs troub when you run pld drk
wintry ridge
but your meta with 8 comes down to 2 melee 2 ranged 1 melee 3 ranged
thorn bear
3 ranged?
wintry ridge
and you have now another class competign for 4 slots
thorn bear
since literally when
torn kindle
I've seen triple melee more than triple ranged.
wintry ridge
i see BRD/MCH Caster logs
sweet blade
What comp takes 3 ranged
thorn bear
where
wintry ridge
not a lot but they are in there
sweet blade
Also ranged does not equal caster
wintry ridge
and a few weird comps that have high speed clears with SAM
i dont know what that is about
assume LB or something?
sweet blade
Theyre completely separate rolls
torn kindle
Because SAM does big dick damage
thorn bear
bruh you are out here claiming the meta is triple ranged
errant kayak
implying sam cant spdrun
errant kayak
nomenclature
thorn bear
imagine not taking TA
errant kayak
thorn bear
the skill that literally everyone plans rotations around
opal hollow
Hi friendly reminder this is an endgame content discussion channel, flaunting your real life experiences can be done in #not-ffxiv-discussion
thorn bear
and in 99% of groups
errant kayak
yes, but no
wintry ridge
Again going off data from logs 1000s of fights and groups
thorn bear
bro
wintry ridge
and that trickles down to general public
wintry ridge
so that is the reality
sweet blade
I think this argument is going in circles
errant kayak
as it wasn't before yesterday night
regal halo
Alright
wintry ridge
and then you give reasons for it, and im saying those reason for a design end game content perspective is not really that great.
regal halo
Someone please fill me in what this argument is about?
wintry ridge
general raiding public
errant kayak
idk tbh
sweet blade
I honestly have no idea anynore
cold ember
Vedicc are u talking abt rf?
wintry ridge
like say for every raid group / person that clears savage / ex content, there is what, x2 that tries and fails?
torn kindle
I think meta comps and class balance/utility?
sweet blade
Something like that
regal halo
What was the argument about?
wintry ridge
but all those who try and fail or try and succeed the comps are linear they do not change at all
and with 9 classes competing for 4 slots and the reason coming down to something like pierce ... or similar ability is just no bueno in my opinion
agree / disagree if you will but that is my feeling about it as it applies to end game
torn kindle
Again, SE is doing something about resistances in 5.0, with my bet being them removing them.
wintry ridge
i'd like to see more variety represented in end game
torn kindle
which will help relax the meta
heavy mist
Plenty of variety
thorn bear
people take what's good and what's fun
wintry ridge
Bravo
thorn bear
lots of people don't find mch fun
torn kindle
There's already lots of variety, you're only looking at the deep end of parse runs and padding runs.
wintry ridge
if that were true
wintry ridge
really true
thorn bear
even if machinist was better than bard
heavy mist
It's pretty true
errant kayak
i mean, you're basing you argument that endgame has no variety off the tiny portion of the raiding community
wintry ridge
there wouldnt be a meta and there wouldnt be 10000000 linear logs lol
torn kindle
WHM and RDM are 'meta' for progression.
thorn bear
there can be both a meta and jobs that are played for fun
regal halo
Ok
errant kayak
when the raiding community is but a small part of the general community
thorn bear
lol
regal halo
Question for you, @wintry ridge
wintry ridge
even if it were say 60 percent used DRG instead of 95 percent or SAM and MNK got in say 30 percent more comps
i'd be happy
regal halo
What are you trying to prove here?
wintry ridge
im proving that the bulk of the groups that raid parse, progress clear whatever have you bring more times than not, the same few classes
and some of the reasons for it
thorn bear
your reasons only apply
heavy mist
People who restrict comps that aren't like world prog or aim for top speedrun ๐ ๐
thorn bear
to 1% of the raiding pop
wintry ridge
should be addressed namely the buff distribution / inclusion
heavy mist
uncut charm
tbh I don't think "true balance" will be achievable anyways, because people at the top will always try to find the most optimized comp which will in turn being popularized as the meta
and people who are never relavant to what these "meta comps" are for will always keep harping about "balance"
ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
errant kayak
but i like balances
regal halo
You would have to present your case, in links and logs, etc
wintry ridge
I mean you can run thru all the FLOGS
regal halo
But okay, let's use FFLOGS for example.
torn kindle
don't put the burden of proof on us.
errant kayak
F
heavy mist
F
regal halo
No
regal halo
Let's that the entire tier as an example.
wintry ridge
ok fine
thorn bear
lemme blow your mind rn dawg
thorn bear
despite samurai not having any place in the meta
it has almost as many parses as ninja for final omega
sweet blade
3 ranged is not standard
thorn bear
a job that is just as necessary as dragoon in a "meta comp"
errant kayak
nor is 3 meele
thorn bear
?????????????
wintry ridge
represented in a large enough sample
standard deviation but acceptable
but more to point
errant kayak
sorry, what sample?
wintry ridge
lets take the 2/2/2/2 samples
and the parses for the entire tier
non speed clears
ie
no LB cheese
and no progression which is the first month
errant kayak
imagine not lb cheesing o11s
wintry ridge
lets take the bulk of the expansion and raid time
uncut charm
uhhhhh
errant kayak
@uncut charm we're just as lost as you are, dw
uncut charm
"meta" matters for the midcore casual groups?
sweet blade
Welcome to the last 30 minutes of this chat
wintry ridge
and who swaps in for x reason on a fight
wintry ridge
so i get DRG with pierce for example. Fine. Now give pierce to SAM as well
errant kayak
you know what this reminds me of? like an analogy
wintry ridge
who do you bring
errant kayak
antivaxxers
wintry ridge
for that raid slot then?
torn kindle
Why would SAM have pierce if they do 0 pierce damage
sweet blade
Why are you asking us?
rigid iris
Where's the DoT in that
wintry ridge
DRG still or do you go SAM?
torn kindle
why not just remove resistances at that point.
regal halo
keru, let's not. Really.
wintry ridge
im asking because if all of you say for example still DRG
sweet blade
You're the one who is meant to proveyour point
thorn bear
again, this doesn't apply to any of the people you are talking about
ie
the majority
torn kindle
what point???
regal halo
????
torn kindle
I'll take the better player, not the job.
regal halo
^
uncut charm
+1
wintry ridge
oh my
uncut charm
I will take a BLM that does 8k dps
errant kayak
like the entire chat has been going on for the past hour
rigid iris
i'm still playing as drg
uncut charm
than a DRG that does 5k dps
regal halo
It doesn't matter what job you play
if you do 3k dps
I'm not going to take you
no matter what job you play
errant kayak
meta applies to a very small population
wintry ridge
everyone is god tier player with equal gear lol. assume that for this point.
you give SAM and MNK pierce
torn kindle
Then I take the first one who applies.