limpid laurel
Why do engineers need to repair?
let me revise it further:
Remove dmg penalty form engines and balloon
Why?
The goal also shouldnt be to remove engineers alltogther, but switch from a G - E - E crew to a G - G - E crew instead
strange lily
You could also increase the amount of health guns/engines gain from repair and/or make them faster to rebuild. By making it less punishable to neglect components engineers can also spend more time on a gun.
But does engineering really suck? I always thought it is a partial misconception that only engineers have to repair and on certain ships they really are just another gunner, and another gunner just another engineer. But I guess on some of those ships you may still need 1 engi to focus on repairs.
There is a fun engi role on Goldfish that sometimes has nothing to do. You have a gunner on front and a 2nd engi with FSK+buff. What does the first engi do? Sometimes having to do less repairs may actually make it more boring.
Another example is a Pyra bottom engineer without the dmg penalty on components. Suddenly they are demanded to spend their time buffing or chemming instead of FSK-ing, which is not really an approvement to FSK repairs. Same applies to Shrike, Breaker, Squid, and probably some other niche cases.
On Spire, Mobula and Breaker I find that they can usually shoot quite a lot.
strange lily
The goal also shouldnt be to remove engineers alltogther, but switch from a G - ...
2nd engi tool on gunner kinda gets there. The normal engineer loadout of Mallet, Spanner, anti-fire tool can be reduced to just Mallet/Spanner if there is a low amount of fire weapons, or if you think you can risk it for optimal ammo types.
I think a fundamental difference is you want to weaken the need for engineer tools, but all the engineer tools are better than the gunner tools. So I believe that even if there is less need for them, there will be more need for an engi than for a 2nd gunner
limpid laurel
You could also increase the amount of health guns/engines gain from repair and/o...
mhm ... okay, I was mainly thinking about slaves. But I guess those are mostly specific to certain ships only and also arise from a lack of guns to shoot from.
This could only be alleviated with changing gun arcs to accomodate a 3rd shooting person, which would then require a readjustment of .. everything essentially ,,, mhm
ships include stormbreaker, pyra, corsair, shrike, squid
strange lily
Yeah, some ships really do play into the fsk-slave role more. Certain guns and tools make that unfortunately necessary. A Squid could do without infinite FSK-ing if it didn't constantly need that Moonshine speed to escape every single Artemis and Hwacha.
I like gun arc increases a lot. Pyra briefly had the 4th gun aim more forwards, Junker still has all side guns aim 15° more forwards. And certain guns could be more "engineer friendly" by being easy enough to use without gunner stamina. Like Detonator and Tempest have been suggested to get more arc and rotation speed, so it is easy to hop on, do something, and get on with what you wanted to do
But that is maybe the opposite of enabling the GGE crew setup you wanted
limpid laurel
thats because its very hard to pull off.
If its made easier and can accommodate more guns, a trifecta is more likely to become the norm than the exception.
limpid laurel
But that is maybe the opposite of enabling the GGE crew setup you wanted
upon inspection, I dont loathe G - E - E, but rather G - E - S (or G - G -S/E - E - S)
strange lily
That is different from what is originally suggested. In your example not a single component could have taken an ounce of damage and your pilot may still not have turned your gun into arc. You would be bored. The only solution for a case like this is to fundamentally change the game to allow all 3-4 crewmembers to shoot simultaneously, but that is a very big endeavour, and may not be realistic when as soon as your ship faces a Squid and you have to use pilot tools to keep it in arc and you are exactly at the point where Nerdhector suggests to improve the experience
Accidental bot usage lol
Something like this was actually already done to the balloon component (all ships). We treat it as if it had 1200 hp, but really it has 900 something hp and some damage reduction. Since rebuild time is tied to a component's hp (smart idea by the og devs) a lower hp balloon was faster to rebuild, and the dmg reduction also meant that you gain more repair for the same damage, without having to change all the guns to fit this new balance
My examples were to point out that there are a lot more cases where engineers aren't FSK slaves, or where even if they are they can still have fun shooting. I hate FSK-ing a Goldfish, but I like it on a Stormbreaker. It's anectodal, loadout dependent, but the examples are necessary to talk about what is actually needed. A Spire using 3 guns is not an "extreme case", it is the most normal case of the ship, and you can even play it without FSK on a high competitive level if you want to.
I think the ships were there is a "slave" are those very exact ships designed to limit the crew in that way. In theory a Squid can have all 3 crew shoot guns, not at the same time but by "switching" the roles briefly where the aft engineer shoots the aft gun for 1 clip and then goes back to repairing as the pilot turns the front gun back into arc. But that is a "perfect" scenario, and may not even be necessary to do in the first place. The very design of ships like Squid, Shrike and Fish makes it hard for a 3rd gun to shoot, it makes it hard for that non-shooting engineer to do anything but... engineer
A hyper niche case is FSK on Mobula. Where the gunner, if you want one, is actually repairing the armor, one engi on the balloon side and the FSK engi repairing all 3 engines. That FSK engine has a ton of freedom where they could bring a buff hammer and uber-charge (literally) all components with FSK+buff or spend their time using any of the top guns. This is also doable in a competitive setting, but probably also only there
It's always weird to talk about people with less experience. Whenever I get a non-competitive player on my ship who doesn't have a prestige level, they usually spend their time on guns more than not. Particularly on Spire it is easy for those players to forget that they have to repair. I think that is the case on most ships actually
Yeah, personally getting hit by a good Hwacha and having to somehow rebuild 5 components is my least fun engineer moment
Theoretically you can pre-build them so that a 2nd Hwacha clip doesn't destroy some of the components again (since they are still destroyed), but sometimes you can't afford to do that. Some of the engines have to work
I have played some of Sea of Thieves, but not recently
abstract flax
Sounds like you want to remove shatter damage
limpid laurel
A) you cannot have all crew shot guns at the same target on shrike, squid, pyra for 98% and corsair, which basicly dooms one crewmember to slave away.
B) Well, that 1 engineer on board with nothing to do only has so few options. The most effective one rn is to enter the hamster wheel. Then there is hoping to shoot at another ship thats just happening to be in arc. Or just standing there, watching the "landscape" for the 101st time or watching for things to unfold, at which point you might as well sit in the spectator.
that might work for the first 3 matches, but gets boring real quick. Also, if you keep the player occupied with actually playing the game they A) learn the game and get better at it B) might find smth interesting and new to them after more than 300 matches on the same map and C)not be shooting into the air, let alone lay mines out of boredom that is bordering on griefing due to boredom.
Thats exactly what I mean! if they had shit to do, they might just end up sticking around for 300 matches!
🤔 yeah, thats what I've been complaining about ... and what I've proposed to fix here
brave ice
Sounds like you want to remove shatter damage
I think it's more like shatter damage is exactly the same, but negative effects on damaged components are removed: like remove decrease in turning speed, firing speed on damaged guns and remove speed decrease on damaged engines. so you can moonshine at 100% speed until the engines break.
for engines it would probably reduce the amount of captains complaining about fsk engineers. It would probably be a buff to faster ships and a nerf to disable builds/guns.
oh, and a buff to lochnagar 😉
limpid laurel
I think it's more like shatter damage is exactly the same, but negative effects ...
yraj exactly
but cause players sit on guns anyhow, the debuffs on guns could remain
abstract flax
What I mean is if you make this change, you are effectively removing shatter, since kill builds would be better, and fast ships wouldn't be slowed. Shatter is not used in pve at all due to similar reasons.
Alao, I personally realy like engineering. I also like Factorio.
limpid laurel
nah, guns keep their debuffs, exactly for that reason
abstract flax
Disable makes engineering hell,
Hmm. I don't think guns and engines can be separated, since they are both 'mechanical' type.
strange lily
Honestly I don't think it makes a big difference for most disable builds. Most use an Art or Hwacha to outright destroy one or more components to give themselves an advantage. One ship has Gat/Mortar and could get a kill in 1 armor break, but the other has Gat/Art and that Art can keep disabling those guns indefinitely. Nuances of mobility and additional (different) guns come in here for a mini game of "killing a ship before you get disabled" or "avoiding all (necessary) shots to keep yourself alive long enough to get that kill"
I think the guns most hit by this would actually be the Carronades, Lumberjack, Banshee and Mine. Maintaining a balloon at full hp has always been "difficult" against those guns and ensuring the balloon is always at 100% changes a lot of how that will play out. Can you ever catch a Squid or Junker if they can triple rebuild the balloon so easily for that instant 100% speed hydro? What about Mag and Crusader which are currently in a very strong place?
Ships that care a lot about engines being available are usually fast enough (with any combination of FSK, Moonshine and. Drift) that they tend to avoid those breaking entirely or have other means to avoid follow-up damage (vertical dodging or drifting to safety). The other ships usually have enough going for them that they don't actually care about them breaking that much (Mag and Galleon still have 6 guns, something is bound to be in arc somewhere)
If engines and guns can't be separated from this change it may also be a stealth nerf to Gatling vs heavy gunns like Hwacha, but that is a niche situation. The whole thing might be a big buff to Spire though
brave ice
if you want to give components more health, you can always add the crowbar to pvp 
abstract flax
You monster
vestal widget
I skimmed through all of that and I disagree with both engineers being encouraged to shoot more. The need for constant repairs in close combat requires decisionmaking on the engineer, which is the main repair (whether fsk or mallet).
Take for example a crusader: Let's say your opponent disables engines. The pilot-engineer duo/trio should then decide what to prioritise, shooting or repairing. It can be beneficial to ignore the engines or even the armor in certain situation but making this less risky by removing the stress is moving the game away from cooperative ship crewing and would be a bad decision. Yes, new players struggle with the learning curve. Making repairing less stressful and therefore giving much more time to shoot will maybe retain a few more players, but will alienate much more experienced players and drive them away in the mid term.
Current crew roles are for the most part great. No need to change that or introduce silly tools (like the PVE armorkit in its current form) It caters also to the people (like me and many others) who enjoy repairing and optimising routes and mitigating risks.
lusty ibex
I skimmed through all of that and I disagree with both engineers being encourage...
I agree with bestvon. I think the depth of play for engineering in Guns of Icarus is far deeper than it's usually given credit. It's a different experience than piloting or gunning, and not everyone enjoys it, but then, not everyone enjoys piloting or gunning. I know people who absolutely hate piloting, but I wouldn't cite them as proof that piloting is fundamentally flawed and not fun and needs to be reworked, they just play the game for different reasons than pilots do. The same is true with engineering. Many people enjoy the split-second decision-making, the prioritisation, or even the rhythm you get into when "fail-slaving". For my own part, I enjoy failsafing, it's like playing a rhythm game to me, especially when I turn on some Eurobeat while doing it.
abstract flax
What is really needed is what I proposed to Muse quite some time ago. A faster, more explody introduction mode with smaller ships, no armor, generalized guns , and smaller crews.
Fast spawns, small maps, etc.
Reduce the game down to its arcade roots and my "No repairs until one of us is dead." infamous order.
limpid laurel
But how would generalized guns and not having to worry about repairs help as an introduction?
new people would have to focus on one aspect less. Get accustomed to the overall concept of 4 people on one ship, where noone can really carry the game on their own. Get accustomed to basic teamwork, crew and ship lvl, to ships, guns and ammos.
And then throw in a wrench^^
abstract flax
People would keep playing the 'simpler' mode. That was the point of the suggestion. However, enough people would also move into the more complex mode, and perhaps even a hardcore mode (that has been requested a lot over the years).
having different ways to play a game you like is what makes it more alive. Look at Warcraft as a prime example of lots of ways to play.
Aside from that, the 'start simple and expand' is the core aspect of countless games. GOI does not do that in any way.
Imagine if GOI offered everything from single seat 'dogfight' airships to full crew carrier battles.
This is all start over from scratch stuff, however.