Concerns about the effects of P15 on currently acquired gear.

[sacred shell]

It is my opinion, that whatever the 'ancient' tier is that requires crafting, is what our current gear should be set to when this update drops, seeing as we did collect components and craft it.

DE, I hope you're reading this, because I know a lot of people who are going to be pissed if their dewelion or gathannan gets converted into a "common tier" weapon after they went through the frankly horrendous grinds to get them.

If we crafted it already, it needs to just go ahead and be the best version IMO. I am open to hearing reasons why this shouldn't be the case, but they better be good damn reasons.

I didn't farm >100 stags to get gathannan to be told I have to do it all over again, probably with heavily diluted drop tables filled with lesser versions, to get the "real" version.

Edit: Additional factors to consider:

• Some people spent money on weapons, and may not have if they thought it wasn't the best version of that weapon. I don't think I would have bought anything short of ancient tier. I'm sure other people feel the same way.
• Some of us have already put in significant effort towards acquiring top-tier weapons like the gathannan or dewelion. Cheapening our efforts while simutaneously telling us to do it again will not bode well, as I pointed out above.
• Some folks have spent money rushing craft times. Us warframe vets recommend against this, but it does happen a fair bit, obviously, or else you guys at DE wouldn't have put it into this game as well I think. It's not going to sit well with folks to hear that the weapon they paid to craft is now a no-craft weapon, on top of everything else.

[tender badger]

we have no idea how the system will be for now, so it's best to not get riled up already. the only things that would do is make you irrationally bitter

[sacred shell]

I can't help it if this is the kinds of things they tend to overlook when they come up with these ideas.
I'm raising it as a potential issue now, and how I would want it resolved ahead of time.
The only point at which this feedback becomes irrelivant is when we know for sure they they were planning to do this all along. Until then, it's quite relevant, and I will continue to supply it.
The fact they were overly vague about it is a problem unto itself. They shouldn't tell us anything about these systems if we aren't supposed to talk about it ahead of time.
The fact that they did tell us about it, in my mind, gives us license to point out any issue we can think of ahead of time for consideration, while the iron is hot.

[night sparrow]

The reason they were overly vague about it is because the system is not yet set in stone.
We don't know drop rates
We don't know craft requirements
We don't know what stats the gear will have
We don't know how the rng will affect those stats
We only know they're not happy with current loot and gear system and they want to change it.

[waxen veldt]

If we crafted it already, it needs to just go ahead and be the best version
we crafted everything, get middle of the road. if we want the best can go farm it.
seems along the lines of the fomo converstaions 'you got in early so your privelge more then others who wanted got in late' etc blah

the farming however many stags. dont kno what your motivation was (im lil over 100 for p13 and p12's were about the same but no bear to compete wiuth and high population running them so didnt geel so bad.)
that you farmed to get X and got X. and want the time respected. by X remaining X

dont see why we get auto-magically elevated otherwise
hopefully concious and careful about this, somethings will take a hit so is it only the things that dont have 2-3 spare copies of which is only gath on p13 accoutn. the rest have multiples of marrow bane and gath dwel built and ready + fragments to spare

these all acquired before the faction grind finished which my current standard as would be playing anyway

[sacred shell]

What about people who bought a weapon?
You think they're going to be happy to find out they spent money once and now DE says "sorry, do it again"?

Why should we be the ones taking a loss because they decided to change something when we shouldn't have to take that loss?

Yes, any weapon short of the best version will be trash in p15. That's not minmaxer talk, that's just how it goes when we have super limited inventory. Nothing will be worth more than minimal investment to many people unless it's the ancient version, and telling people that their current investments are effectively trash is not going to go over well.

[sacred shell]

I have two (2) seathorns, for instance, that I farmed, and then I leveled, and then I put top-end joinery on, (one of them is grace, the other spirit) and leveled them again, and that took considerable time and effort.
Nevermind the difficulty getting some of these joineries. Feybalt is still notoriously hard to get.
If this update drops, and I have to effectively do that all over again but with rarer 'ancient' drops, and it turns out my feybalt went to waste, that's going to royally suck.

If you want a "compromise" that isn't just "make them all ancient"... I still don't like this idea, but they could make 3star weapons ancient, 2stars noble, and 1stars common. I would still end up throwing out most of my arsenal (and probably not re-crafting most of it to save on slots) which would suck, but at least the super rare things I worked hard to get and invested time into getting the way I want won't be trash that way.

The only other idea I have that could remedy this would be some kind of "valence fusion" type system (like the one for nemesis weapons in warframe) where if I craft an ancient version of a weapon, I can fuse it with the one I already have, to upgrade it.

I might keep most things under that condition. They would also need to either fix the drop rates on the dewelion and gathannan so that I could get ancient fragments for those weapons again relatively easy, but that would defeat the point of making the ancient tier the rarest tier, so I would still prefer some of those weapons be automatically converted across to ancient by virtue of how rare they are in current patches.

[tender badger]

again, but, we don'T know what the system will be. wait to have actual info before starting to fearmonger about what is effectively made up things.

This is also an alpha, things change, that's what everyone sign for

[sacred shell]

A year ago, if they told me they were wiping our weapons and we had to start over I would have understood. No money had been taken, and it was still a relatively closed test environment with few people.
Since then, they've said no more wipes, and they've opened the game up and taken people's money in exchange for these goods.
If they don't handle this right, it could easily be a softwipe, and I see that as a problem. Again, I'm raising that concern early because I think it'll be easier for them to fix now than after the update is here and everyone is screaming about it. All they have to do for now is tell us they're not going to effectively steal from us by making our existing weapons inferior, and we're good to go.

[sudden shore]

I don't agree they should give everyone the higher tier version if the changes are similar to what you say.

Firstly it's pre alpha. We all went in knowing things could change.

Second that removes gameplay from all of us. The main gameplay loop is grinding content to look for drops. Craft weapons. Rinse and repeat. I actually enjoy this. Why would I want to have everything straight away? What else is there to do? Gives me another reason to play.

People got what they paid for at the time. They can't let that stop them from releasing better weapons because people chose to pay for something available to all of us in game.

[sacred shell]

Releasing better new weapons, sure.
Redefining my already bought or farmed weapons as inferior to draw the grind back out is lazy at best and a straight up cash grab if they dare to sell ancient versions directly.

[tender badger]

IF

Again, you are getting yourself worked up on something we know jack shite about outside of the general concept. calm yourself down. heck, they actually even mentionned that tuvalkane would have a roll in upgrading our items, so there is already a plan for what you are panicking about.

calm down

[sacred shell]

She already has a role in upgrades with joinery. You're assuming they meant more than that, when they didn't say.

Also, it is apparently some people's opinion that we shouldn't have ancient tier weapons from what we already have.
So now it's not just a what-if, it's also a disagreement with that opinion.

Also, please stop projecting emotions onto what I am saying. I'm relatively calm and chilling in my living room waiting on lunch to finish in my air fryer. It's not like I'm swing from the rafters in a frenzy over here.

[tender badger]

it was ;lieterally on screen. at this point it jsut feel like you are assuming the devs are dumb and don't know what they're doing

[sacred shell]

I know and have read this.
Joinery counts as an upgrade and they didn't elaborate on anything beyond joineries.

You're still making assumptions.

[tender badger]

and you aren't

?

[sacred shell]

I am concerned about how they handle this.
I'll admit my fears may be baseless. (And I hope they are) But unlike you I'm not trying to push my assumptions as fact.

[tender badger]

me i'm jsut applying good ol' occam,s razor here. they said there would be no reset, they mentionned tuval would be part of the upgrade system of the new found objects, and they are experienced devs

[sacred shell]

I'm a Warframe Founder. I'm quite experienced with DEs updates and what they tend to overlook.
The odds that they would have made the right decision here without us saying anything is around 50/50 imo. I'm probably not raising those odds much, but I'm doing what I can.

And to their credit, I do think if they do push out this update in a way that hurts people's investments, and people complain about it, that they'll fix it eventually.
I would just rather have it fixed up front.

[tender badger]

Holy armchair game designer, that is one hell of a statment. Claiming devs with years of experience would only make correct choices half the time without the glorious knowledge of the mighty Kyle the gamer is wild

[hearty sparrow]

that attitude doesn't help

[sacred shell]

Sometimes they make and stick to the wrong decision even when we give them good input.
And once, they even tried to pin the blame for one of their bad decisions on the design council.
I've been here, watching them make good and bad decisions for nearly 13 years now. My attitude on this is tempered in over a decade of experience.

I like DE a lot, to be clear, but Im not going to be convinced they're infallible at this point.

And I am certainly not going to just shut up and let them do whatever without raising any concerns about their plans just because someone on discord thinks they know better.

I've heard this "we don't know so we shouldn't talk about it yet" nonsense before, several times now, and I still disagree and will keep talking about things regardless of how much or how little we know. If you don't like that then you are free to go somewhere else and not respond to it.

It has been my experience, that people who don't like what I have to say often try to find any way they can to silence me, and this is often attempted as one of the main vectors for that.
If you have a valid disagreement, feel free to articulate it, otherwise give it up, because I won't.

[tiny salmon]

So anyways about the forum... it does sound a bit left field and at least the way it seems to be interpreted is as you mentioned, there is the common version of that weapon. And who knows maybe its not gonna be bad, doubt anyone will complain about the best version of vetch dropping. Now if its like the royal tines or even 2 star weps like igne mora... this personally doesn't feel like a system like this belongs in soulframe.

I think I even remember Steve saying this is the common system used in looter shooters. That is not this game, even Warframe (yes im aware of lich and tenet weps) for the most part have fixed values at base. I just feel like this loot change doesn't fit with this slower grounded style of game.

[hybrid bison]

I'm not as concerned about this stuff, but that's mostly because as someone trying to return to the game, the prism system has already made 95% of my gear useless anyway.

[hardy wave]

I'd be extremely suprised if there wasn't some form of compensation for even the joinery changes, hasn't there been a proven record of arcs being given when time has been made redundant, could be wrong

[sacred shell]

If they want to give me enough arcs to replace my whole arsenal, then... wow, ok, that's a lot, but I would still rather just have the crafting, farming, leveling & re-leveling times I already spent on my current arsenal respected directly rather than replaced with some arc value.

Also, I bought at least a couple of the weapons I have. If they intend on selling ancient versions of weapons (which they likely do) then the ones I bought, at the very least, need to also be ancient, or else that's just a straight-up ripoff.

Compensation is one thing, but when you start taking people's money, you need to be more aware of the long term effects of your decisions. If they weren't happy with the system, then they shouldn't have been selling it IMO.

This does obviously affect people who have one or more of literally every weapon a lot more than people who have either been tossing weapons they don't want or who are just starting the game. If I hadn't just finally finished a few of the hardest grinds to get the last few weapons to polish off a full set, I might not be as bothered by the idea as I am.
But the thing is, I did do 100+ stags for gath, and idk how many bosses for dewelion, and right now, the versions of those I have are the best versions. I do not like hearing that I may have to return to either of those grinds for ancient fragments, and also don't like hearing that all of the joineries I've spent on a bunch of my weapons may be completely wasted. All because DE decided to change the loot system to flood our drop tables with inferior no-craft weapons for some reason.
A change I not only don't see any value in, but did not ask for. Starfield did this RNG modifier crap with their loot, and it's the most boring loot system ever. None of the modifiers will make any real impact, and if they do then they'll automatically become meta, and we'll just have another riven system.

The way they presented it, it sounded like they just wanted people to be able to get their hands on inferior versions easier so they wouldn't have to make some of the harder grinds easier, but people could still get the mastery if that's all they wanted.

In my ideal vision for this, they would respect all of our existing grinds by making current weapons and fragments into the ancient variety, and simply adding lower tiers below that. This doesn't screw people who put in the work, but makes it easier for new players to get their hands on weapons for mastery and basic use purposes without having to devote their lives to insane grinds like some of us have up to this point.
Those of us who are completionists will still grind for the best versions, which take the place of the current version, and folks who care less and just want specific playstyles and the rest are throw-away mastery fodder anyway, can run the game that way without so much wasted effort and time.

Yet, there's a chance they're really just reaching for a lazy reset button that isn't labeled as an "account wipe" to keep us all engaged while they work on stuff, and worse: some envoys seem to like this idea for some reason.
My take on that is that if those envoys want to farm the same weapons over again, they're free to delete their own arsenal and start fresh. You don't have to have DE do that for you, and the rest of us shouldn't have to if we don't want to.

Some have said something along the lines of: "But then they won't have enough people testing the new system."
Yes, they will. For one, DE will keep making new weapons, and us veterans who have everything now will still get to use the system on those new weapons. But also, new people, and people who haven't acquired everything yet still make up the vast majority of the player base. There will be lots of testers.

Also I, for one, intend on testing the new system to figure out its mechanics and assist in data collection for the wiki project. I really hope I won't need to do that testing across my entire existing arsenal to accomplish that goal, but even in the event that we do end up doing that, we can share that load; one person might go get a second dewelion while I re-farm gath or something. Forcing us all to do that across our entire arsenals is just creating a lot of wasted effort.

[sacred shell]

Another potential outcome:
If even ancient weapons have rollable stats, and there's some kind of reroll system, then automatically setting our existing gear to ancient won't automatically exclude that gear from the system.
And if not, and they're more static, and the rollable stats on nobel weapons are pretty good, then there may still be a reason for us to go back and get noble versions of some weapons for some specific rolls.
I'm not sure how likely either of these events are, but the point is that there's still plenty of room to still make the system engaging for those of us who are at that point currently Without ripping anyone off or invalidating anyone's work thus far.

[tawdry falcon]

Bringing real money in a pre alpha is already biting them in the ass. Cannot wait for people to tell us off for voicing our concerns about real life currency because DE needs to introduce such a system this early on.

[tame mortar]

We're playing an alpha.

I don't reget the time i've spent in the game even if they completely rework entire systems.

There aren't going to be any account resets, but there's going to be multiple situations where things are removed, changed, or made easier.

There's inevitably going to be something better than the gathannan in the future anyways

[night sparrow]

Did you buy your entire arsenal with arcs? Otherwise why would they refund you for it?

[lean meadow]

Major changes that upend builds or invalidate previous investment, monetary or not, have typically come with compensation.

WF does it with forma, SF has done it with moonsteel

[night sparrow]

Compensation yes, but don't expect to be reinbursed your entire inventory's worth of arcs if you bought one or two weapons

This is for Anova

We'll be reimbursed for whatever was drastically changed that we bought via Arcs and maybe resources for the crafted stuff.

[sacred shell]

I was responding to someone else talking about general reimbursement for things that change, which have not, in the past, been dependent on whether we bought or farmed a thing.
As this affects my whole arsenal, that suggestion brought to mind the frankly ridiculous idea of reimbursing me for my entire arsenal.
I said it that way to point out how silly of an idea it is that you can reimburse someone for a change this big, that affects our entire arsenal at this point.
I never actually expected this to happen, and I kinda hope it doesn't: as I said, I would much rather have a situation that does not require reimbursement.

Besides, farmed or not, if they're selling an item for a given arcs value, then whether that thing is bought for arcs or not, it should be treated as having that value.
The moment you start giving benefits to people who bought a weapon, over people who farmed it, you'll have a whole new crowd of folks with torches and pitchforks after you.

That is almost literally the definition of PayToWin and folks in this community HATE anything that even looks that direction with a vengeance.

The only thing more anger-inducing than having our entire arsenals redefined as trash in a lazy attempt to make us farm it again, would be to find out that the whales who paid for them instead, got to bypass that problem. That would be a betrayal of epic proportions.

So if they're smart, in my opinion, they'll reimburse everyone equally for whatever weapons they have, regardless of their source.

If they're really smart, they'll avoid situations that would require reimbursement.

[night sparrow]

Ah, my apologies, I just quickly skimmed through the comments to catch up on the thread and missed the bigger context.
When it comes to compensation, in Warframe when they rework something they usually give you back your investment of forma for that piece of gear so if we're compensated in arcs, I'd expect it to be similar in value to that.

Likely enough to cover slots / bestitching.

[sacred shell]

If they want to reimburse me with an item (like a forma) I can use to upgrade everything to ancient tier, then great I guess, but also why do what I'm asking for with extra steps?
We can't bestitch weapons (though I guess they could add that between now and then) and giving me more slots doesn't compensate for this change in, basically, any way. (though I suspect they will increase our base pool of slots to handle the vast numbers of crappy weapons we're going to be handling)

At a minimum, I expect the founder weapons will have to be ancient tier. It wouldn't make sense for them not to be, and folks will complain about it if they aren't.
Likewise, then, I also suspect they're going to be selling ancient tier weapons in the shop. If the noble and standard versions drop redily, then why would anyone buy them?
So again, I'll restate what I just said: They basically have to set our weapons and armor up as ancient tier. Not doing so means either people who bought things previously are getting ripped off, and doing it only for people who bought a thing is P2W.

[hardy wave]

Tbf I didn't mean your whole inventories worth of arcs

Personally feel like its kinda your choice for putting arcs into a weapon with how fluid the game is rn. Weapons system could, and very likely will completely change, this has been a thing people have discussed for a while now. We play it and grind weapons, put joineries on them, build them, with the expectation that the systems and weapons that we're using aren't concrete in any way. Or at least I have, and as such for me a blanket compensation like with every other inconvenience would be plenty enough if anything.

If they wanted to change how totems worked would every player need to be refunded the amount of investment they've put into them?

Not that I don't get your point or what you're saying. People are gonna get annoyed by it much like every large change, sure this should have more of a precedent as it involves real world money, similar to if moonsteel threads were reworked or removed. Also just happen to think it was a predictable if not necessary change.

[sacred shell]

They already trashed the mote system before, and I was here for that. It's a bit different because they weren't selling motes, and they didn't have hours of grind to rank them. They just were.

[hardy wave]

Yeah hence me mentioning precedent

[sacred shell]

The thing is, we also didn't farm motes, because they were awarded for map completion, and map completion is still rewarding on its own, so it's not like any of that work went to waste either.

But yeah, I do understand your point as well, I just don't think there's actually any precident for the situation this presents.

They've kinda jumped the gun selling us stuff if this is still going to be liquid to the point that they might just take those things away again. It doesn't matter if it's their right to do it, or if it's in the EULA either. It'll feel shitty to everyone affected by it.

It's not my fault for assuming that if they're selling me something, that that thing is at a point where they feel comfortable selling it, because it's "complete" to a degree.

There's no disclaimer on the buy page, after all.

And it's not just about me and my like, one or two weapons that I bought with arcs. This is a concern that affects a lot of people.

And like, I was a good sport about loosing the fey pact EXP. They gave us our choice of a replacement, and I did level that thing at a time when they weren't selling it to us and things were a lot more in flux. I didn't feel like I actually lost all that much, even though I do still miss having the fey pact.
But now we're talking about something they have sold, repeatedly, to a lot of people. The game is much more public now. And this represents a significantly larger portion of the game in terms of time investment than motes or the fey pact ever did, even combined.
They can call it pre-alpha all they want, but if they jack up a bunch of things people paid hard cash for, in this economy? yeah, that'll hurt a lot of people's faith in the game. If they're not ready to commit to their decisions because it's pre-alpha, then they need to stop taking people's money for it, because it's pre-alpha. If the game isn't ready to be sold, then they need to stop selling it, basically.

[sacred shell]

To answer this question directly: if the change in question was the same as telling people their existing totems would all need to be thrown out in favor of new, better versions, then yes.
If they're capable of compensating me down to the last resources over-spent on my railjack, when they changed that, then they can do that here too and give me back 100% of the harmony I apparently wasted in such a situation.
This becomes doubly important if we were to assume that some people were buying totems. (I know you can't, but, just trying to make the analogy fit the current situation)

The thing is, there's no easy resource we spend on getting weapons. There's no pity shop they can send us to with a stack of special credits, and no amount of resources will replace the time I apparently now wasted grinding out the rarer weapons on the list.
The only 'compensation' that makes any sense, in my opinion, is to just let us have ancient weapons from the get-go. Treat our existing fragment farms as ancient fragment farms, and the weapons crafted as ancient weapons. I don't see a problem with doing that, and I dont' see why anyone else would either.

[restive silo]

I do think the concerns are very valid

The proposed solution I’m not 100% sure on

But at minimum I think whatever stuff they add cannot nerf the gear

Whatever quality would have similar stats is what I think the gear should be moved to

With some material/fragment comp for the time/effort

Maybe you get comped with ancient fragments or something to reduce the new grind

Just my two cents

[sacred shell]

They have to be moved to whatever quality they decide to sell in the shop. Anything less means people who bought stuff get ripped off, and treating people who didn't buy stuff differently will also make people mad for obvious P2W reasons.

And I don't think they'll sell much of the no-craft stuff in the shop very well.

Otherwise, if money weren't involved in the game yet, I could almost see where you're coming from.

[restive silo]

Maybe premium currency comp? Might be annoying but they could refund the premium spent on buying stuff and maybe rushes

Just the effort of checking purchase history

Which I’d think is doable

I’ve only been playing for about a week and a half now

So I’m not the most educated

[sacred shell]

If you mean only refunding people who spent money, but people who farmed get shafted, then no. No thanks. I did bust my butt the hard way for gath and dew.

[restive silo]

On the whole ordeal

[restive silo]

Fair

[wary latch]

I may be quite wrong, but another way to take the way they talked about it was that 'ancient' gear was meaning the more unique stuff like the Garren Rood or Bromius equipment set rather than common soldier gear like leather armors and sollos sword, or fancy noble gear like the knightmaiden or mendicant equipment?

This way I understand they may be thinking of turning it more into a looter game like diablo, to have a more elder scrolls style loot-sourcing system where even though we aren't looting bodies the same way, we might actually get the common gear from the common enemies, some of which will be better than others based on faction/area/level, and the same with noble gear from heavy units or minibosses, which could still be worse than common gear situationally, and then 'ancient' gear makes sense to be more challenging to work toward but could still potentially be worse than common or noble, I don't know.

I know that I don't want to have to do inventory management, and I know that already having to swap the entire everything I have equipped in p13 because everything has different build requirements is annoying and having to complicate that further doesn't sound good, so I really hope they don't entirely mess us around when p15 comes, this might actually be a make it or break it change that I can see them backtracking on or entirely changing the idea around by the time it comes to releasing it after hearing all our feedback like they have done before.

And as far as our current equipment, I imagine we'd keep it all as it is, either with no modifiers or random modifiers applied, and if we want other variants of it we'd have to go get it ourselves but we wouldn't lose our current arsenal of options

[restive silo]

Yeah, the whole new system is 100% going to mess up peoples time/effort/money no matter what they do tbh

[sacred shell]

Yeah, my only issue with that theory is that it's basically what they have now with the 1/2/3 star rarity system. They would effectively just be changing the 1 and 2 stars to no-crafts and adding some rng bonuses.
The way I took what they talked about is that we would have standard, noble, and ancient versions of, say, the sollos sword.

And so on for all other weapons.

One of their goals seems to be to make things that are currently hard to farm, because they're rare, easier to aquire an inferior version of, but that's just my take.

[restive silo]

I would imagine standard would be the easy to get, noble would be the current version, and ancient be a stronger version?

And that you can upgrade noble gear to ancient

And standard to noble?

Maybe

[sacred shell]

Noble and standard are just random drops, no crafting, no frags, you'll just get them from doing whatever content.

They did have a footnote about "upgrading gear" but it's unclear whether that was just about the joineries, which count as gear upgrades, or some new thing they didn't elaborate on.

And also, the "ancient fragments" sounded, to me, like what we currently have for a fragment system. So I would then need to go get more gath ancient frags, probably from that dang stag, AGAIN and I'm just not here for that.

[wary latch]

I think having common/noble/ancient versions of everything would be a cheap sidestep to adding an armor upgrade system, and I'm not sure I can imagine them taking that path instead, I can imagine them considering that nobody wants to farm the exact same item 100 times for slightly better stats versions, so I have to assume and hope they're not going to pull that on us

[sacred shell]

That's literally what they said they wanted. They wanted us swapping into new gear frequently becuase we got slightly better rolls at after clearing a camp.

[restive silo]

Especially with the long crafting times

[sacred shell]

It's hundreds of the same gear, over and over.

[restive silo]

Would suck to wait a day or two on a time just for it to be a worse version

[sacred shell]

Would suck to have to wait to craft something I've alredy spent time waiting to craft.

I baked everything once already. I should not have to do it again.

[wary latch]

It does seem like they want a more diablo style looter system, but what I meant to say is that I think it will be more about modifiers on equipment rather than completely randomized stats, the way they talked about having found cool things to switch to makes me think there will be gear with like.. passive ability triggers on them or something but the quality and quirks is more likely to be like this gives you +15% courage and -15% grace or +15% armor but -15% movement speed, changing stats after the fact rather being random base stats of the gear

Very scared for p15 update either way, this could be too big of a change for a lot of people, I dunno

[cunning kettle]

The screenshot was already posted in this thread about DE mentioning slashing crafting times for p15.

[hardy wave]

So you mean like when we upgraded our initial runes just to have better ones released on cogah? Don't understand that much tbh there's certainly a way to phrase it but not like that. Thats just game design for an mmo is it not, throwing away a worse thing for something better.

Like if you were to say in a made up scenario that doesn't reflect the actual game, buy normal fang in warframe, then fang prime was released, would you need to be compensated for your fang purchase because theres something better now

In fact doesn't that just apply to the situation as a whole, whats the difference between an upgrade via having a wyld version get released and having the p15 versions be better, either way you brought something that has no guarantee to stay as the better version of it and are wanting compensation if it turns out to not be? Maybe it's just having post work brain rn but I'm rethinking it and understanding the viewpoint less

[hardy wave]

Like in my opinion logic would dictate that if they have a version in the prelude plan that uses the current fragment system, it would be what our weapons would be exchanged for. They wouldn't be a standard baseline version because thats not a thing anymore, so you wouldn't be farming anything more than you have unless they completely removed every single weapon from every players inventory which they won't do without discussion.

And if thats the logical thing for them to do, at the very least in my eyes, then what is the worry about. What scenario are you imagining where your purchase becomes genuinely redundant and the weapons in the shop becomes different to the one you payed for, because I just can't see it realistically happening.

And because messages intent can be misread especially when opposing opinions, I'm not trying to be dismissive or rude in this, just genuinely don't understand upon reflection

[sacred shell]

They're not just releasing a stand-alone upgrade to a few runes or weapons or whatever though. They're reworking an entire system, and if they redefine things I've already farmed hard for, as easy to get with zero craft time, and then put the Same Item back up in its original place with the same hard farm again, then that's not the same as releasing a prime, or adding a few mods.

In such a scenario, they're not just inching the treadmill's belt forward a few inches, they're saying we've been on the wrong treadmill the entire time. Or rather, they've redefined the treadmill we've been on to be the wrong one, and now we have to start over on a different one.

Do not compare this to a prime mod or prime weapon, because that's not what this is. If they were saying we're releasing prime versions of everything, they would not be putting the fragments back in the same places, or using the same models, or the same base stats. They would have a new place to put those things, new mastery to get, and new unique quirks on at least most of them.

The way I see it, what I have is already "ancient", just due to their nature as being crafted from fragments, some of which are already extremely hard to get. Anything less is a downgrade.

And that's just the F2P side of the argument. I've already stated mutiple times that I'm pretty sure the cash shop alone is going to force their hand.

[sacred shell]

I hope you're right and my fears are unfounded. That's the best case scenario.

The only tier to use fragments in the new proposed system is the ancient tier. The standard and noble tiers are both supposed to drop as immediately usable weapons and go into some kind of "booty chest". I suspect it'll be similar to how railjack weapons and components are currently stored -- statless at first -- with effects and stats rolled at the time you appraise them so they can stack and take up less DB space up until that point.

Instead of having thousands of Vasp-IV fragments, we'll have thousands of standard and noble Vasp-IVs in a 'booty chest' to sift through if we want a noble one for whatever reason.
And then, separate to that, there will be Vasp-IV Ancient Fragments that we'll use to craft the ancient version, which will presumably drop from the same place(s) the current fragments do now, though they may make them rarer? I'm really not sure what to expect out of the currently super common weapons.

There's already too many weapons to have dedicated places (like bosses or whatever) to put their ancient fragments for some kind of farm. So I suspect in most cases the standard and noble versions will simply take some of the drop table space away from the current fragments, making them rarer, but still attainable in the same way as before.

There is also the possibility that they won't change the current drop tables at all and will just add additional drops to things for standard and noble weapons. they were talking like they wanted us to get something "new" out of every tiny encounter, and the most sure-fire way to make sure we get a new standard or noble chunk of gear every time is to put it in its own drop event so it doesn't have to compete with existing items.

[sacred shell]

Also something to consider, though we might not think about it:
Some people DO, IN FACT, spend a lot of arcs on rushing crafts. They farmed it the f2p way, but don't mind spending money, for whatever reason, to have it now.
Is it really, truely, fair to them to take their money to craft a weapon and then re-define that weapon as not needing crafting at all and ON TOP OF THAT tell them to go get more fragments and craft it again if they want the real version?

Someone was either joking or serious about actually spending arcs on rushing crafts in one of the discussion channels, and it brought this question to my mind.

[restive silo]

As someone who rushes, yes

And unfortunately I was not joking

[sacred shell]

Well, noble and standard, as far as we know at the moment, will be no-craft-time-required drops in p15, and only the ancient tier will have a craft time. So if I were you I would slow down a bit on spending on rushing crafts, knowing you might be asked to do it again anyway.

No point in paying double if you don't have to, after all.

[toxic echo]

In theory both dwellion and gath are of ancient origin and grade as they're associated to the fey and the omen beats respectively

Dropped ones, as far as i can tell, would be the likes of vetch, sollos, etc

[eager flume]

I am just going to say: I hate the random substats and gear from games like D2, so I am really not wanting it in Soulfrane. I hat the "Oh no, you got shit rolls from a heavily weighted pool, better go farm 100+ more to get a decent roll!"
Leave that shit out of Soulframe.

[sacred shell]

There's some ambiguity there, for sure. That said, I'm of the opinion that they meant they would make standard/noble/ancient versions of each weapon, not just change the names on their existing rarity system. (currently we have 1/2/3 stars on a weapon to denote rarity)
That said, if that's all they meant, and the rarities themselves aren't changing, then great, because that means effectively nothing changes about our arsenals.

[sacred shell]

I'm mostly indifferent about it, I don't really want it or not want it, it just is. I have the same concerns about it as everyone else though, in that it may create a new riven-like situation where people have "god roll" weapons, and some other RNG tomfoolery starts becoming an issue when combined with it.
Notably, I'm concerned about them inflating the drop tables with all of the "new" weapons.

[eager flume]

• Riven issue all over again.
• Inflates tables.
• Exacerbates weapon inventory slots.
• Creates unnecessary grinds.
• Will be a pain to balance around.

[sacred shell]

All valid complaints, for sure. This particular thread is to raise concerns with what happens to our existing arsenal, but there's a lot of odd problems with this idea to solve if they want to impliment it gracefully.

• They just need to straight up grant everyone more inventory slots if they do this, or do away with that system entirely to avoid issues. One of the two. The starting amount is far too small for a system like this. Heck, some would argue it's too small even today.
• The RNG stats need to be something we can re-roll and manipulate, preferrably with some kind of pity system so we will get what we want eventually one way or another.
• Table inflation can be handled by handling all weapon drops as a separate drop from the ordinary ones.
• Whether a grind is unnecessary or not is subjective, but yeah, it can absolutely inflate grind for no additional real reward.
• This whole game is a pain to balance around. They keep trying to use simple math everywhere and it keeps causing problems. lol (not to invalidate the point ofc, just saying it's on brand for soulframe thus far. lol)

In my opinion, these things are all "solvable", or can at least be heavily mitigated to the point that they're merely mildly inconvenient at worst. It is our job to continue to give good feedback on these things to ensure they get solved early and often. 🙂

The main issue I wish to see them solve ahead of time, in this thread, is the handling of our exisitng inventory. I want to hear from them that our existing game time and money spent isn't getting 'wasted' by effectively re-defining our existing gear as trash to be replaced.

[eager flume]

Oh no for sure, the do need to make sure the stuff we worked for already gets folded into the system in a good way should they move ahead with it.

I am just stating that they also do not have to move ahead with the system.
It is a common thought across threads that once they say it we just have to accept that it is coming regardless of what the community feels on the matter (e.g. prisms). There is always the options of them not going forward with it.

[sacred shell]

Agreed! It's certainly an option to say "nah, actually, that's a silly idea" and go in an entirely different direciton. I just don't think they're going to do that.

[eager flume]

I would hope they would listen to all sides as feedback is a little pointless when it is always "We are going to do this whether the community as a whole likes it or not, just tell us how you would like it."
That would be like telling us to color a drawing but only giving us a green crayon.
(Just to be clear, I am not trying to be argumentative. I have been told I come off as that. I am just trying to discuss the topic.)

[sacred shell]

-# (Understandable, I get the same comments for various reasons. No idea what to do about it. I apparently also just tripped over the content filter, but idk why. Such is life. I'm going to try again, removing some words that maaaaybe will let it through?)
Anyway, I think it's a bit more like giving us a paint-by-numbers and a full set of watercolors, and then saying to paint what we want. Like, yeah, sure, we can paint what color we want, but it's still going to be a butterfly.
Like, we can say how we want parts of this new system to turn out, and they'll probably listen to that, but saying we don't want it entirely is probably going to get ignored unless everyone gets on board saying that it's a bad idea.

-# (oh good, it worked that time. Weird.)

[tame mortar]

How would it be wasted?
Its inevitable that better gear is going to come out in the future, even if this game was fully released, and or that entire systems are going to change and morph until they've settled on completed concepts for a 1.0 launch.

I think we'll just have to wait and see how the actual system works.

[eager flume]

(Yeah, the filters mess with me sometimes too lol.)

Yeah, I get that. I just hope that we don't get such an rng heavy system that encourages no life spamming for a single decent weapon out of a sea of weapons that all feel the same. Like, I rather just have fewer weapons that are unique against each other with more robust upgrading systems. Like each weapon has exp that gives points to spend in a unique sphere grid per weapon that can be expanded as the game goes on. That way if you have a weapon you really like it can be carried forward. Joineries are ok as a start but what about being able to socket weapons and put gems in to boost certain stats? Really just giving players tools that let builds and weapons become their own. The sphere grid are sockets are easily expandable as well, so it is a system that is future proof.
Right now, with what we know about the RNG slop system it just sets up a really shaky foundation going forward.

[sacred shell]

I've answered that question already. There's a very big difference between what this system proposes to do and the natrual flow of new gear. I've been clear about that already. I'm not going to repeat myself, again.
Feel free to wait and see all you want. I'm still going to raise concerns I have early and often. I believe that was the intent of telling us about this, this far ahead of time.

[sacred shell]

Yeah, having a flatter system that allowed old weapons to carry forward would be nice, but I also doubt that will happen. The power creep is strong with DE. It's why duviri's RNG loadout system is such a controversial topic. Lots of older weapons are complete trash, and have been outmoded too hard for it to work consistently at high levels, and people with less patience or time to deal with that for any reason are less likely to enjoy it for explicitly that reason alone.
I strongly suspect they'll make the same mistake here and bump up the stats on all new weapons to help sell it as the next big thing. It's kinda their whole MO.

I'm not a fan of the RNG added stats either. Few games do anything close to that in any way that actually helps or makes sense. Inevitably, many effects in the RNG pools are garbage 99% of the time and only a few become meta. It happened with rivens, and it'll happen again here, almost certainly.

[eager flume]

See, and you would think they would have learned with rivens. Also, to the needless power creep you would have though they would have learned about that from warframe and prime mods. It just feels like we are inching closer to the same mistakes they have made in the past and the hand break doesn't exist in this vehicle.

[cunning kettle]

I might regret this question but what sort of mathematical difference do you expect? The desire for perfect gear piece is understandable but the top damage is like around 200 on something Purity/Gathann currently. What sort of damage difference do you expect? I suspect it would eb 20 points at most. Outside of optimisation, which is its own game, would it matter in non-cogah run?

[sacred shell]

The simple answer to this is that I don't know, but the reason I don't know is because any system like this is going to require a rebalance of the rest of the game around it.
Simply put, I want my top-of-the-line weapons to stay top of the line in the new system. I don't want DE to shove me back down the ladder in the name of "creating content" that is really just a mass copy/paste of existing content I've actually already completed.

Good question btw. Got me to maybe, hopefully, articulate part of why this bugs me in a way that's clearer.

If they want me to farm a 'new' version of an existing weapon from some new farm or new boss or whatever then fine, great, it'll have some higher base stats and that'll be just fine.
I've already killed the stag a billion times, and the rest of the bosses more times than I can count. I do not want to be told to go back and do it again for the ancient version. I likely will not do it again out of sheer frustration.

It's not a new weapon, it's not a new farm, it's not a new anything. They will have just moved some numbers around on a spreadsheet. There's nothing new here, but I still take the loss for no reason.

[cunning kettle]

Thank you.
From my f2p side I don't feel, mm... threatened, I suppose. I play some in the morning and some in the night. By my approximation I've spent around, say, 300 hours give or take and I've levelled up everything f2p currently is allowed to. The only achievements left for me are two or three cogah runes, that's in. When I kill yet another Ode I feel like I'm wasting xp. I use little slots, only necessities for my builds, which are six slots, two per+1-2 errants. Such a change would given me something to do, however silly that may sound. Although, granted, I'd prefer ancient gear to be replacing current one free of charge.
I understand collector's intent, certainly, but for an average player I'm not sure how much difference new system is going to make. But, I admit, due to lack of information, this is a controversial point.

[sacred shell]

Yeah if you haven't kept most of the gear then this is far less of a problem for you. I've spent money on slots and kept everything so far.

But even so, if I only had a handful of slots to my name, but I had my favorite weapons all sorted out, I would still be annoyed to be told to toss them and put all of that back together again just because someone at DE wanted to shift some numbers around.

[cunning kettle]

That is understandable, doubly so if you were to spend irl money on your new blade. But, then again. we do not yet know the mathematical difference. I had a bit of a chuckle when I realised that my Purity(Mora) and Gathann(Mora) on my build were 1 damage away from each other. Given how strange damage variables are I do not expect difference of more than 20 points of damage between common and ancient for now. Yet there is a conterpoint. If this system were to implement dilution of stars, so to speak, in that I can get Vasp-IV kind of as strong as Gathann I think it'd be fine, as well as you are(maybe). But that's, you know, a topic I brought up some time ago in a separate thread.

[sacred shell]

Yeah, there's obviously a strong upside to the system if we can get what are currently common weapons in rare/legendary formats where they compete at those higher levels. Would love me an Ancient Igne Mora that actually held its own next to the other rarer 3-star 1h blades.

[cunning kettle]

By Mora, I wish!

[tame mortar]

The natural flow of gear currently is just the same system was warframe. it leaves you on an infinite treadmill of gathering stuff just for your mastery rank.

Having lower tier gear that you can just get and use is a really good idea especially for the type of game they seem to be aiming for. It would also most likely help with the eventual "mastery fodder" issue.

You're entitled to raise concerns, I just don't entirely understand the logic of the concern I guess since we have such little information to go off of and I don't really see the cons to a more lax system for getting gear in a more natural, rpg-like way, and being able to try out more things earlier on in the game experience without having to grind out resources to craft them

[sacred shell]

I've always loved the effects on that sword. I have a Fenn Jotar build that just uses mora themed gear. Spent the arcs on a special loadout slot for it.

[sacred shell]

My concern is not with the new flow of gear. My concern is what happens to the gear we already have.

[cunning kettle]

The lack of relevant data and the intent is precisely the root of concern, I'm afraid.

[tame mortar]

nothing happens to the gear we already have

[sacred shell]

If they treat it all as ancient, then sure. We crafted it from fragments, and ancient tier gear is the only tier crafted from fragments. So if they honor that, then yeah, no problem.

But it has to fall into the new rarity system somewhere, and that's what raises my potential problems with it.

Again, I've been over this several times now. You can just read above if you want to see my book-length posts on this part of the topic.

[cunning kettle]

Allow me to play Ode'n advocate here. There, hypothetically, could be cases of weapons of noble quality with specific quirks that could, in s[ecific situations, perform better than noble ones. That's a hypothetical from my side. Gotta consider the possibility.

[sacred shell]

better than ancient you mean? yeah sure

that's possible, probably

it's hard to say without the actual numbers in front of us, and i don't expect that to happen with most weapons regardless

[tame mortar]

I don't think they're going to treat all of it as ancient. I don't think that would really make sense either based on the devstream.

The items directly associated with pacts are most likely to be the ancient gear and then maybe also the Purity and Mendicant king set.

To directly quote Steve:

"Rather than RNG just adding time, it will add spice....There will be random attributes and pre-built gear dropping.....The fragment system will remain but it will be for more of the "ancient" tier of gear. A lot of the crafting experience will be instant or nearly instant except for crucial gear. Tulvakane will still be able to upgrade your pre-built gear in the world."

I don't think this should take a book's worth of commentary.

If you're concerned about your time/effort/arcs being "wasted" because of what you invested in no longer being meta sometime in the future, especially during an alpha, they would have to basically stop making content or make all future content have the same stats to resolve that concern

[cunning kettle]

Of course, thank you.

[sacred shell]

I hardly follow meta, and I don't mind reapplying a few joineries if that's all it turns out to be. As I've said several times I'm concerned with the weapons themselves and having to farm them all over again.

It's starting to look like you're just not reading what I say at all.

[tame mortar]

Why would you have to farm them again? why would that be reasonable to think.

Do you think the normal and noble version are going to have different mastery?

[sacred shell]

They're going to have inferior stats, and not require the crafting time I already spent on the ones I have. In addition to being easier to aquire. If they downshift me to noble (or god forbid standard) then it's a huge loss of my investment in time and resources.

I'm getting tired of answering these same questions over and over. You seem to think I'll say something new. Address one of my actual points please, or I'm done talking. To you at least.

[cunning kettle]

As far as I understand situation is as follows, hypothethically:
Ancient=100% stats
Noble=75% stats
Standard 50%
That's max. Therefore, potentially nerfing currently possessed equipment.

[sacred shell]

Yeah, because like I said, a system rework of this scale also requires a rebalance of the rest of the game around it. I'm at 100% now.

I want to be at 100% after.

Same weapons.

If they add new ones, as they do, then fine, I don't want them to just give me those. But I already have these.

A few tweaks to meta pushing me down to 95% or so is fine, but overall I shouldn't be down at noble or standard class. That's too far off.

[tame mortar]

They're going to have inferior stats
So you do care about meta.

We don't even know how much of a difference there will be between the normal and noble weapons, or what kind of random modifiers they're going to roll, or how much Tulvakane can upgrade them.

If you really like a certain weapon and its not ancient, you're most likely going to have to grind out one that rolls good modifiers and is noble.

If they just gave everyone before the update "noble" weapons then they really wouldnt have a reason to engage with the system until new weapons are released and they didn't do that for people who invested in joineries so I wouldn't really expect it to be done in this case either.

You don't know how big of a difference noble:standard is going to be.

[sacred shell]

I've already addressed all of this above.

P14's changes to joinery is going to kick everyone off meta. I'm not complaining about that. That's fine.
I do care about meta just as much as anyone else does, and that's not a crime, but it's not my concern with this change.
Stats matter regardless. The Wuldur is quite inferior, for example, despite having the same stance as many weapons that aren't.

[tame mortar]

If you're playing a game in alpha, a lot of your time is going to be "wasted".
I chose to waste like 100+ hours grinding faction exp when the system was horrible even though I knew it would be improved in the future.

On the other hand, I sat on the newer joineries through like 2 preludes because I was anticipating inevitable changes.

You're most likely going to have to backtrack or re-farm things more than once until the game is in beta and they stop making large changes to core systems

That's all I really wanted to say. That and you should probably wait until we have more information to be so concerned.

I wont comment any further.

[sacred shell]

I've already explained why I'm raising my concerns now as well. You're not going to get me to shut up, no matter how much you might not like my points.
They laid out this information this far forward of the prelude it arrives in because they wanted us to talk about it, and I intend on doing just that.

[hardy wave]

So what I'm gathering, is that what you will have an issue with, is if they release the ancient set as something you have to farm fragments for and wait to have crafted, while giving no meaningful reason to do it, as in our current weapons either having almost identical stats to ancient, or our current weapons being significantly nerfed so ancient can take its place. Because it would be redundant and just be the exact same grind we've done for previous weapons be effectively doubled for the same item. Either that or worse case nightmare scenario they completely remove all our weapons besides our starters or something similar. And this is just putting it out there so they can see you have concerns about it and are thinking of it so that theres less of a chance of it genuinely happening even if it isn't likely.

[restive silo]

Another issue, not sure if you said anything. Is people who spent Arcs on gear. Either rushing or outright buying gear just for it to be gained way easier

Basically just wasting the money

[sacred shell]

Yeah basically. Like Doom just said, there's also the issue of people who spent money on this in one way or another.
I get that it's alpha, but they're also taking money now for something a lot of us have thought was a mostly completed part of the game in terms of systems design. To completely upend that now, in the name of basically just creating more RNG bloat, does not justify invalidating our time or our expense.

And yeah, I'm throwing this out here early in the hopes that we avoid this scenario.

No point waiting to hit this iceburg if we can call it out to those behind the wheel early.

[tame mortar]

Would be a waste either way. Its inevitable that better gear will be introduced to the game. (I said i wouldnt comment on this thread anymore, but the logic here really doesn't make sense and its been mentioned too many times)

[sacred shell]

Better NEW gear DOES NOT equal redefining our gear as less and then making us farm the same gear again from the same sources.

Idk how to say it any simpler than that.

This system change is not additional content, it's a different way to inflate existing content, and my concern is that they'll do it in a way that effectively nerfs what we already have in the name of making us re-do content we've already done for no reason.

At a minimum, it's lazy, and really, it has the possibility to be quite toxic unless handled with care.

[restive silo]

Yes. But when I rush something in Warframe or buy it straight. It doesn’t get nerfed later on or acquisition extremely simplified to such a degree. I’m not saying it will be out done, I’m saying that they will devalue the item without comp

I even brought up a easy fix would to just be look at player purchase history and refund arcs for items that get nerfed or easier to get

I don’t think the new system is a problem. In fact I think it could be pretty good

I’m saying that they are basically just going, womp womp. To anyone who invested Arcs on any gear that gets affected by the new system.

Yes, it’s a Pre-Alpha, changes happen

I get that

But when you introduce money spending in the game you lose that excuse when it comes to anything that costs money

And equipment costs money

The smallest Arc pack I believe is 4.99

So about 5 bucks

So assuming someone spent all 150 of those arcs on gear, that’s five dollars down the drain

@sacred shell does this explanation make sense? Just trying to make sure I’m not misscommunicating anything

[tame mortar]

Having better alternatives added to the game isnt the same as an item being nerfed.

Acquisition in warframe is simplified constantly. What are you going to say to the people that dumped thousands of plat, hundreds of dollars, on arcanes? womp womp

You chose to spend your arcs/money. Its not a womp womp as much as you get what you pay for. Eventually better things will come out. That's the womp womp.

As soon as you have access to something better the arcs are basically down the drain.

[restive silo]

1: Exactly. That’s my point.

2: Maybe so, don’t know enough to comment. But in WF you still have to get materials, and craft the item, or rush/buy, no instant access for a majority of stuff.

3: Again, I have ZERO issue with better gear releasing. My issue is old gear being nerfed or extremely trivialized.

3B: I genuinely think you’re just not understanding what I mean, so imma try a clarify.

I have a Sollos
I rushed the sollos, I spent the 5 Arcs
If later down the line the Sollos just goes from a item you need to craft to just a item that drops and you get it. Sollos is fundamentally devalued as an item, which means I lose money.

If new gear is released, Sollos is not devalued, but the new item simply has higher value.

4: Maybe, but that goes back to part 3.

It just feels like you’re just ignoring what I’m trying to say. I’m not trying to be rude, it’s just how your response looks

[tame mortar]

Im not ignoring what you're saying. We view things differently on a fundamental level.

Ultimately, any arcs spent to skip the grind in the game are a waste.

It's impossible for something new to have higher value without devaluing the Sollos in your example. Maybe not to you on a personal level, but especially to someone who has neither, the sollos has less value

It would be different if you bought a cosmetic for a lot of arcs and they just decided to give it to everyone for funzies

[sacred shell]

Right, there's a normal flow of power creep in DE's games. New weapons out class later ones, generally, except when they don't.
The most recent sword added, for instance, is not the best sword.
So your argument already has holes.

Even if we assume you have a point, however, there's a vast difference between the problem we're talking about and DE adding something actually new.
If you disagree, then fine. But you're not doing anything to make us see it your way, you're just ignoring our points and repeating yourself.

[tawdry falcon]

After reading most of this thread, I believe a good middle ground is keeping our gear as standard, and, following their "fun" metrics as shown in the chart, adding new interactions instead of simple stat adjustments. However, as things seem to be for the near future with P14 and their reskins, reuse of already existing models and animations, their focus on churning new gear as fast as they can to pad content at the expense of quality new gear, I really doubt it.

It could all be placeholder and they are planning something big with gear in general when it comes to the future, and for now are focusing on the systems to which a player acquires gear, but until they mention it, I will voice my concerns.

[sacred shell]

Dude, they're not adding "new interactions". Nothing they said indicated anything that elaborate. In all likelihood, the new stats are just going to be more of what we had on joineries. +% lifesteal, +throw-speed, +headshotDamage, etc. (and I say "had" because these are getting removed in p14, so by p15 they'll be gone.)
I also obviously disagree overall. I didn't farm and craft a standard gathannan or dewelion. I didn't buy a second standard seathorn, and wouldn't have bought it if I knew it was going to be. These are all rare weapons, and AT A MINIMUM currently rare weapons need to be ancient tier, since that's taking their place. Downgrading them to the equivalent of 1 or 2 star rarity, when they're currently 3-star makes absolutely no sense.

As I have stated, many times before, due to the nature of these items on the market, and the nature of how we farmed and crafted them up until now, and the way money has been taken in exchange for expiditing these processes, I firmly believe all of our existing weapons should be treated as ancient.

[obtuse yoke]

+1 look at this https://discord.com/channels/998758139405029478/1488769411774025759

[tawdry falcon]

This is feedback section of where we, the players, voice our concerns and what we hope to see from them when they release content following their announcement. It does not matter what they stated as it is a long ways from release, which is the perfect time for us to help inform them of what we want to see.

No one needs another reskin with slight iteration for their new gear. I assume the player expects new gear, with new design, animation and flavour. Different tiers offering new mechanics, etc...

I am not sure you understand a single thing I stated in my feedback, but hey, you do you.

[toxic echo]

OP you raise a pretty good point about money spent on gear and i agree with you to that extent

But the way they said in the devstream is most likely that mundane weapons will be dropped and legendary weapons (as in of legends) such as igne mora, gathannan, dwellion etc will be crafted through fragments

They just dont see a reason to have our inventory filled to the brim with vasp and sollos fragments when we could be getting them as weapons with semi randomized stats that keep looting interesting

An argument can be made for giving pre crafted gear the strongest buff possible but depending on the nature of these bonuses there might not even be an objectively better one

[sacred shell]

I kinda hope you're right, because at least then the 3-star items we already have, stay "ancient". Another example of if my concerns are entirely invalid, it's the best case scenario. I win more, if I'm more wrong about any of this.
My interpretation was different, hence my concerns. The way I took it, was that they intended on making standard/noble/ancient variants of all existing weapons. I was hoping that we would have the opportunity to also get legendary versions of some of the lower-tier weapons. It would be a way to make 'low tier' weapons have 'high tier' counterparts if we liked them for some reason.
Also, the whole system doesn't seem nearly as impressive if it's just a rename to their rarity system and a removal of craft times from 1 and 2 star weapons with some RNG bonuses thrown on top.

[sacred shell]

None of us need another reskin. I'll agree, that the whole idea of creating duplicate versions of our existing weapon list sounds silly to me, but that is exactly what it sounded like, to me, that they wanted and intended on doing.
I'm also concerned with what they said they intended on doing in this thread, not theorycrafting what we would like or expect to see so much, unless it's a proposed solution to the concerns in this thread.
I do respect the idea of giving feedback, even about things we don't have full details on, but this thread does also have a scope to it, so there's a balance to be had here.

[tawdry falcon]

Which is why I am voicing my feedback now before they release it and find out how much the player base does not need it as their "fun" idea. Fun is not exact copies with different stats. I would be playing PoE for that and have a much better time if I was looking for that type of loot chase. I am here for Soulframe.

[sacred shell]

For sure. I'm not here to advocate that this is a good idea overall. There are upsides and downsides to it (more downsides by my count) so you won't here me entirely run it through the mud, but at the same time I'm not making this thread to advocate for it.
I'm just concerned with what happens when it gets here, if this is indeed their intent.

[tawdry falcon]

No need for us to wait for them to implement it when we can state, "Hey, I would like to see this in the game". People already added their suggestions regarding non-existent concepts in the countless threads. This one is no different as you have clarified multiple times. It could all be baseless, it could all be meaningless pessimism, but it could also be fruitful in helping DE avoid a massive blunder.

They are constantly asking us to bombard them with feedback and I expect them for us to be as brutally honest as possible for the betterment of their game. No need for us to shy away from what could be because if it becomes a reality, and it will be received poorly, it will cost them time and money, and I assure you they do not want that. However, if all of it was just us slinging mud around and it turns out to be something different, then hey, at least DE knows we do not want that type of system in the future, if ever, especially if it is a fundamental change to the entire system.

[sacred shell]

Oh I agree entirely, I just think maybe that's a different thread from this one.
This one thread is concerned, specifically, with: if we are getting multiple tiers of the same weapons, then "what happens with our existing weapons?"
If the entire premise of this thread turns out to be incorrect, and they go a different way, or if you would like to suggest an entirely different system, then my concerns in this thread evaporate. (probably to be replaced with new ones 😄 )
But new concerns with that other system would be a different thread. Suggesting that other system, would also be a different thread. I'm never going to tell you not to give feedback, as I agree with basically all of the points you made. I'm just trying to keep this thread on target. 😉

[tawdry falcon]

Mine was, again to reiterate my original suggestion from earlier, for clarity: Keep our standard gear (do not mix the general standard with their new system's "standard") as is, so people's money is not wasted nor their effort. Add a different interaction/mechanic, or a side grade for the other announced tiers (Ancient, Noble), that way, we do not lose anything, but also have options to try out for variety. Now, instead of a numbers game, it becomes a preference and style choice. 3 in 1 type of deal.

[sacred shell]

Ok, so a 4th tier, basically, consisting of our existing weapons in an unmodified state? And then we side-grade them into one of the other three suggested tiers if we want later?
I mean, sure, but I'll just sidegrade all of mine into ancient if I'm given that option. Wouldn't everyone?

[tawdry falcon]

If Ancient is simply a different style, and it becomes your preference, then go for it. Your gear is still there to use, and this Ancient tier gear style weapon is there if you are feeling like trying something different. Think of it like how Warframe does skins. You have your original skin, but you also have deluxe which is a different take on your skin. It is all subjective.

[sacred shell]

Ok, so you're also suggesting the tiers not be linear upgrades of one another, but stylistic choices. That's... not what DE was saying they were planning on doing. But it's an interesting idea.

Again, we're getting off into 'make a thread for this suggestion' territory, because you're inventing new things and redefining the situation that makes this thread even valid.

[tawdry falcon]

Not exactly style only. Another take on the weapon with its own balanced stats relative to the original, animation, mechanics and of course skin. As stated, it would be 3 in 1.

[tawdry falcon]

I keep trying to clarify my original suggestion in this thread related to your original post. No clue what you want me to do here. If I made a new post, it would not really be another thread as it is related to your original post, again.

[sacred shell]

The premise I've been operating on so far is that we would have 3 tiers: Standard, Noble, and Ancient. With Ancient being the highest, rarest, and most expensive with the best stats generally speaking. (some nobles might be "better" in niche situations, but that's beyond my points in this thread)
DE did not call these Wyld or Prime variant weapons, they're the same weapons we already have with different rarity tiers and some RNG stats tacked on for "variety" and "spice" and "joy" reasons.
If you want to make a thread saying you want to see more distinction between tiers of the same weapon, then go for it. I would love to see our existing lineup of weapons effectively tripled with unique skins, effects, and other things for each and every one.
There's no way that's going to happen between now and p15, but it's a cool suggestion. And while it would theoretically solve my problems in this thread, that's where the overlap with this thread begins and ends I think.

In such a situation, where they're adding real new improvements to higher tiers of our weapons, I could see us keeping ours as standard, sure. I would hope they would compensate us for the mass of materials we spent crafting these things if that's what they did, but whatever.
But they didn't suggest real new improvements, just some RNG stat modifiers added to existing weapons. Theyr'e the same thing, with RNG paint, tripled because RNG bloat is one of DE's favorite dev-time-saving devices apparently.

[tawdry falcon]

I am trying so hard to understand what the issue is here. Why do you believe things will be set in stone, and why do you think DE will not change what they stated in their dev stream from our feedback? Maybe not in P15, maybe later, but it does not mean that what I suggested or someone else suggested would not help them change their new proposed system.

You keep repeating that I should make a different post for something relevant to your post about preserving our effort, money and grind, but I see that as redundant. The rest of my replies/comments are clarifications of my original point, so I am not seeing what the point of me making a new thread about your concern is. If every suggestion on here is a new thread, it just sounds like chaos to me.

If you think my suggestion does not tie in to your post, even after all the clarifications, then I think I am done trying.

[sacred shell]

If I didn't believe they could change, I wouldn't be giving feedback myself.
That said, I put P15 directly in the title. If they do your thing in p16, it would still be outside the scope of this thread.

I don't want you to make a new thread about my concern. I think you should make a new thread suggesting wider differences between tiers, than just some RNG riven stats.

[tawdry falcon]

I think there is a communication problem between us, bud. It is clear to me, that this is the end of our discussion. Crazy that after all this time, we end up where we started.

[sacred shell]

Yep, good talk.

[restive silo]

Do you have any ideas about how to compensate for money spent? I brought up earlier just refunding people who rushed or bought gear that ends up being added to the drop table. Any other ideas?

[onyx tree]

-1
The only gear I will agree with this on is the tier 3 weapons and the Paragon Greatsword as those are VERY difficult to get or can only be obtained via real money. And I DO NOT think those should even be the "God Rolls" of what we get.

This would almost certainly nulify the concept they are trying to reach by just handing everyone god rolls.

Then you end up with the same issue where new players are just 100% behind and existing players say "there's nothing to do and no incentive to log in for."

To close all of this up, other than the Paragon GS, spending our arcs on these weapons was 100% our choice as all of this gear was farmable in the first place.

[sacred shell]

I'd be willing to compromise down to 3star==Ancient, 2star==Noble, & 1star==Standard for the conversion of our existing inventory. Others have suggested it, and while I don't 100% like it, I can at least see the merits of that point of view.
There's still a lot of wasted resources and time on the lower tier weapons, so at least some resource refund would be nice in this scenario, and not without precedent, since they did do that for railjack back in the day.
Saying it was "our choice" to spend arcs on weapons knowing it was "alpha," is a bit too much IMO though. It was also a bit underhanded for them to open the game up to more people and start accepting money for something they knew they might want to change later.
I still maintain that, regardless of the "alpha" or "beta" labels (because DE left the "beta" lable on warframe for literal years) that they slap onto it, DE still has a certain degree of responsibility to their customers. Treating them badly has no excuse.

[onyx tree]

I mean I just started with P13 and didn't purchase the Paragon pack until about 30 hours in. And while I don't have ALL weapons and armor, the only ones I decided to spend arcs on the weapons I didn't really have time to farm.

The only weapon's still eluding me are the Dwellion and Marrow's Bane.

And I don't think it was underhanded at all. It is the EXACT same system as Warframe, and now based on player feedback they are choosing to change it.

TBH, the choice to make weapons RNG drops has me wanting to spend another $100 to keep supporting DE. I know that is not everyone's opinion, but I think that is the best feedback they have taken yet, regardless of how many arcs I've used for this that or the other.

DE didn't point a gun at you and say "Spend your arcs because we don't want you to grind this weapon." If you spent arcs on weapons that is 10,000% on the individual that did it. EVERYTHING but Paragon is farmable.

[sacred shell]

So, I'm going to construct a bit of a strawman, but also something that will likely happen to someone, so please bear with me:
There will be someone (probably many someones) who doesn't keep up with updates in this discord like you or I do, but they play because their friends play. And they'll buy, idk, dewelion, or some odd end weapon the last day of p14 -- right before p15 lands and everything shifts.
Is it right that they're allowed to buy a weapon, and the very next day have that weapon redefined with no notice, not nothing given to them ingame, no check, nothing stopping them and saying "hey, this is about to change"? Does it sound OK to you that such a person would log in the next day, see their purchase as "standard" or whatever, and look at the market and see the offering they just bought has changed to point at the same thing but effectively better?
Your judgement, I feel, is at least slightly coming from the perspective of people that have already bought weapons prior to today, and that have kept abreast on every little thing happening in soulframe.
But it affects people who don't fit either of those assumptions. Their customer base is much wider than people who practically live in this discord constantly, or watch every single stream.
At a minimum, those people's weapons need to be equivalent tier to what they bought. Really though, if they could have farmed a noble or standard version of the weapon easier, they might not have bought it at all.

[sacred shell]

I'm going to guess you're also a fan of rivens and the riven system seems like the best thing since sliced bread to you. That's... not a common take AT ALL, and for many reasons I won't get off into.
Suffice to say, I fairly strongly disagree that tacking on RNG stat modifiers is a good idea, or that it'll result in a net positive for the game. I could be wrong, and they could surprise me, but I really doubt that at this point.

[restive silo]

I agree, DE loses the it’s a Pre-Alpha excuse when it comes to anything we can spend money on. If the founder packs or arc bundles weren’t available yet I’d have little issue with the update

[tame mortar]

You're in control of how you spend your money though at the end of the day.

Buying items instead of grinding them is a personal choice and its ultimately a waste since you can get them for free

[restive silo]

Yes, I’m aware, but again. Money got involved

[sacred shell]

I started grinding in earnest when I saw those because I took it (apparently mistakenly according to some people) as a sign the game had solidified the way it was handling those systems.

[tame mortar]

You're aware but you're ignoring it. Better gear is going to come out. The arcs will be "wasted" either way

[restive silo]

No. You misunderstand

There is a difference between devaluing a product and a product with more value in what I’m trying to say

[sacred shell]

"better gear" != System Rework
Already covered this, and you already said you were done in here.

[tame mortar]

the products will lose value over time regardless.

[restive silo]

Over time

Over years

Not over a single update

[tame mortar]

Oh so you want updates to be years apart?

I give up

[restive silo]

Now you’re just putting words in my mouth?

Why are you being so aggressive with this?

[tame mortar]

The game is still being formed. Dramatic reworks and shifts in meta are expected and even welcomed. We're testing out to see what is or isnt working or what will or wont be good for the game. The prelude isnt even out yet.

If this game was in a full release it would make more sense for them to spend a lot of time testing things internally, but the point of an alpha is to just ship it and let people mess around with stuff to give feedback on. Things can always be changed/reverted if its not working

[restive silo]

Yes, but that’s not the problem. The problem I have is that it essentially means we wasted money

[onyx tree]

Replying to both points here, smaller one first.

Actually I am not a big fan of Warframe's system as a whole. I got about 1/2 way through steel path and decides the game wasn't for me due to the lack of "fully crafted" items dropping.
The RNG and full item drops fits in the ARPG genre. Can I ask if you dislike the concept because of the thought of "god rolls"?
Because in the same vein as your point above, the people that don't come the to discord or watch/read guides will have 0 clue there is a "god roll" to chase.
Additionally, if implemented right, there will be MANY god rolls that are all fairly equal.

To circle back to your longer point, in short, no I do not think that is okay. That is where it is DE's responsibility to create in-game pop ups for when you first start the game or when you buy an item that says "Hey P15 will be changing gear to RNG drops. Are you sure you want to buy this?" But then EVERY veteran player is going to complain about the pop ups.

The alternative is that 2 weeks to 1 month prior to P15, DE disables the ability to purchase weapons for Arcs OR you can still purchase and get a random roll.

I am not advocating for depreciating our hard earned/paid for gear, but I am advocating for players to support the game if they enjoy it whether that is with time, discussions like this, or money.
There is a happy medium where DE says "Hey, we can't just give the best gear to everyone that has been here because it harms those that will come. So, we will take your current gear and roll out an update that brings them into the new system at 'X' rarity, which is NOT our highest rarity."

The amount of times I see "There is no reason to log in" could be a significant reason for the change.

Any change will come with growing pains. But that means DE should have eyes on posts like this.

[restive silo]

When you buy a car for say 50 grand, but later on the cars price gets lowered to 100 bucks because they felt like it, you wasted money

[lime vector]

@onyx tree you’re on YouTube eh, and based on the profile icon you’ve played borderlands, using BL3 as the best example I well and truly believe that shows how useless and terrible RNG systems are as a concept, anything below the max rarity isn’t going together et used and modifiers never added to expressions only numbers it really feels like a downgrade and I’m hoping you agree with that, I know I personally wouldn’t like to see the same thing happen here

I absolutely adore borderlands as a franchise it’s the main game I grew up on but those systems never added to the expression the way modding a fully crafted weapon did in warframe for me

To me it isn’t even about the value of the item as much so much as it is legitimately just a worse and also very unoriginal system

Also if someone finds out the highest version of a weapon isn’t purchasable how does the store remain a sustainable form of income for DE if the value of buying a weapon does become simply not worth it

I think it’s better to buy weapons as blank templates and be able to express how it functions through gameplay systems as individuals

Two people can have the same weapons in warframe and ply them totally opposite and I’ve always loved that over rng

[obtuse yoke]

Disagree, however you used Borderlands and it is a terrible example for this. I made a post about how this system can work well both for those who like the market, those who do not want randomness, and those who want to leave their mark on the game, to have a weapon exactly the way they like. The system seems to be great if well implemented. https://discord.com/channels/998758139405029478/1488769411774025759

[lime vector]

I’ll have to check it out in a moment I’m curious to see Hellen’s thoughts I liked his YouTube videos

[onyx tree]

Played Destiny since the D1 beta and BL3, Tiny Tina's and BL4. I FULLY WELCOME the grind but that is how I like to play. I know that isn't everyones cup of tea, that isn't what I'm saying.

The only issue I have with your response is that BL4 offset that a LOT with the manufacurer parts system. If DE does the same with the "Qualities" and "Quirks" (like boons and banes hopefully) they could nail that RNG and letting say a Noble feel better or more powerful than an ancient.

As for the highest weapons not being purchasable, you could still get pacts, armor, and talismans from the store. If we ever get an expanded runes/totems system those could be added as well. Not promoting this, but it is an option for "sustainment."

[obtuse yoke]

grind is the way GRIND IS LIFE

[onyx tree]

Gunna take a look at this now.

[onyx tree]

THIS ONE GETS IT lol

[lime vector]

Makes enough sense tho the grind seems very artificial to me I’d rather grind for those manufactured parts in borderlands and choose to equip them myself then have the rng of it dropping on the item

[tame mortar]

my pfp is from a different game.

Borderlands 2 is one of the greatest games of all time.

Grinding for good rolls on legendaries is really the only replayability to the game.

That being said, if Soulframe has "legendaries" based on Steve's post, they wont have randomized stats so its irrelevant.

I think being able to have some gear that just drops a "plug and play" experience is a lot better than people getting through the intro fables and just being walled by needing to craft things constantly and constantly running out of resources.

It would also let people try out more grips sooner with less investment

[lime vector]

And I also love the grind in games as well

[onyx tree]

You don't equip them though. The weapons drop with random parts and you have to farm the weapon still with that additional RNG in mind. Granted their 30 billion guns is TOO MUCH but the concept is solid

Think of it like stats just extra parts

[lime vector]

I know I’ve played it and that’s the singular part that killed B4 for me

[onyx tree]

That was what drew me to the game lol

[sacred shell]

I don't play these games for the grind, and I think that's a bit silly that anyone would, but ya'll have fun I guess.
I'm here because I want more buildcraft. So my priorities about having my builds and time respected are significantly more important to me than some weird draw you all share toward more mindless grind time.

[lime vector]

I love the idea but the execution felt like it didn’t respect my time

And also anything that wasn’t purple or gold felt useless unless it had an op underbarrel

As usual in borderlands games honestly

[sacred shell]

I have a real job, this game will never be it.

[lime vector]

So do I I’m working while I type

lol

[onyx tree]

RNG creates more buildcraft though. That's where I don't understand the issue here.

Imagine getting a weapon that dealt fire damage. How good is that with Mora's Hand?

I mean like a Sword or Bow WITHOUT Runes

[lime vector]

Yes but imagine getting an rng mod like in warframe that lets you choose to equip fire damage to something instead

[sacred shell]

hardwired RNG stats aren't buildcraft, they're hardwired RNG stats. Rivens were horrible for warframe's buildcraft. They created situations where you had to play a weapon a set way, or else you were vastly inferior.

[lime vector]

The lack of choice and purposeful expression is what I hate

[sacred shell]

I would rather have a totem that just adds fire damage if I want it

[lime vector]

And getting that totem would still require grinding and rng

[sacred shell]

A bit, sure, but it's also applicable to more than one weapon.

[lime vector]

Even puzzles maybe like in warframes curropted mods

[sacred shell]

And i don't have to use it, I could put something for ice damage instead

[obtuse yoke]

It took me a while to write it. I tried to keep things grounded in reality and within the game scope, and if even half of what I wrote in the thread happens, the system will work for everyone.

[lime vector]

It doesn’t have to be easy to acquire but once you have it you get to decide how it’s implemented which makes the expression vastly more interesting then I wasted thousands of hours to get lucky

[sacred shell]

buildcraft requires player agency -- forced RNG removes player agency

I want more player agency

I'm not ok with less

[tame mortar]

F2P models kind of have to have grind and rng that can be skipped or circumvented with mtx in order to exist as a sustainable product.

Sure they can make a lot of revenue on cosmetics, but those are 1 time purchases.

[lime vector]

Which is why Forma was such an intelligent system

[tame mortar]

yeah forma makes them big money

[onyx tree]

I don't like Rivens, so I agree they are bad, but no, people following YouTubers builds as gospel is what ruins buildcraft.

Someone mentioned I'm on YT, and yes that's true, and I support every other creator but you dont NEED to go to YT to get a "good build." We love to min-max the game, and we love any new or extra options in the realm of min-maxing. That doesn't mean the option we didnt make a video on is not "good." That's just how WE enjoy playing and like to share those ideas for like-minded people.

Legit ANY fire damage weapon in the new system will be OP on Mora's Hand because it buffs the second passive and your lethality, EVEN if that is a "Stanrad" rarity. In theory it'll be even better than a maxed out Dwellion or Gathanan.

[sacred shell]

Rivens were not good for buildcraft, regardless of youtubers.

[obtuse yoke]

+1 more build craft
-copy in builds and + identity

[lime vector]

So then to your logic why not just allow players to farm something that lets them choose to put fire on their favorite weapon instead of farming 500 weapons

Saves the devaluing drama and creates the same expression while letting the player choose

[sacred shell]

They're literally removing added stat modifiers from joinery in p14 so they can add back RNG ones in p15. It's cheap grind extension.

At the expense of player agency.

[lime vector]

Also I mentioned you’re on YouTube just cause I like your vids

[obtuse yoke]

Most people here have a very rigid view of what the system will be, and they are far too comfortable with 15 years of the same mechanic: collect parts, combine parts, and wait 24 hours for it to be completed.

[wicked nimbus]

Yeah, forma is great. Especially in retrospect - a good way to add MTXable grind that was different from the norm and kept the tasks fun. The grind to re-level things is pretty fun compared to sifting through trash for something useful.

[onyx tree]

Beacuse it is much more dangerous from a design perspective and 100% will create a "meta" vs multiple variants of rolls.

I don't disagree that it is a good system, but that in and of itself creates the issue of "should tiered wepaons have more slots?" then you just created a meta because you added more, and if you don't add any more per tier, then the other half of the community will be up in arms.

[lime vector]

It never felt like I was wasting my time resetting my weapon because I always had something new I wanted to build and try and combine and tweak on the same weapon

[obtuse yoke]

I'm not tagging my thread for self-promotion, but rather for you to see how the system can please all players if the idea is well executed. https://discord.com/channels/998758139405029478/1488769411774025759 Take a look at it with a different perspective, folks!!!

[onyx tree]

This isn't just from a player's perspective, you need to think on a long term design front too.

Just go check out weapon mods in Destiny and tell me people use more than 3-5 of the like 20 available.

[onyx tree]

Reading now

[lime vector]

The destiny 2 mods system killed it for me it’s basically the same as borderlands

Otho g useful except the modifier you’re wasting your life monotonously grinding for

[tame mortar]

Approaching identity that doesnt just lead to meta/gaming and copying builds gets pretty difficult. Like, I don't think any game has done it that has any kind of modular system or like a Tab Target mmo with optimal rotations.

For soulframe, maybe they could do that with customizable animation sets? Its tricky, cause people will still min-max things like frame data/animation cancels/ stagger damage

I think if they spend more time brainstorming on the rune system there could also be some potential there

[sacred shell]

Somehow we've gotten fairly far from the topic. This topic is about issues with what happens to our gear when p15, specifically, drops. Talking about wider game design where relevant is fine, but I do believe we've drifted a good bit at this point.

[lime vector]

There’s always going to be people who follow some meta even In The most rng system of all time

Some will waste their time trying to get the exact rolls as someone else

[tame mortar]

cough PoE community cough

[sacred shell]

Yeah RNG doesn't remove meta, it just means only people who can no-life the game (or pay through the nose on the riven market) get it.

[lime vector]

And it just makes it harder for them to enjoy the game with the fun item they wanna play with for no benefit

Grind is good but making it a soulless grind to try and play with things other people rolled because they were able to make a min maxed god rolled build isn’t a good thing, and like Anova has said numerous times player agency is very important

[obtuse yoke]

see with another eyes...

[sacred shell]

My biggest beefs with warframe to date are places like duviri or EDA/ETA where they specifically removed player agency in one way or another in exchange for RNG, due to some misguided idea that RNG is automatically fun and spicy. This exact misconception has led them to their worst ideas.
And in recent years, they've done a lot of rolling back those ideas to add pity systems because they've finally had to admit it was a problem.

I hope that someday they do the same for duviri and EDA/ETA, but by then they'll have some new misguided over-RNG system to bug me with.

Heck, they've even toned back a few things around the riven system for the same reasons. Though not as much as many of us would want. There's too much money in the riven market I think.

Anyway, yeah:

• Our gear needs to retain equivalent tier of rarity and effectiveness post-conversion to the new system. I contend that our resource, time, and fragment investments would make everything ancient tier, but at least converting 1:1 the current rarity system to the new rarities would be tolerable.
• People have spent, and continue to spend money on all of this, and will likely continue to do so right up until p15 comes around. Their purchases also need to be respected.

-# trying to reel us back into the OG topic

[toxic echo]

they probably dont have that Log to refund people who rushed. maybe they do for people who bought weapons, but i doubt it. all in all, if they're going to make semi randomized stats and bonuses for weapons of 1 and 2 star rarity, they could just let players who already have the item choose what sort of bonus their item will get.

and i mean it not as a band aid fix, but as a system where you can indeed choose which bonuses your weapon get. this system could then be applied to every weapon bought from the store as to justify buying it instead of farming, as well as have an item that you can buy and/or farm that lets you reselect the bonuses you got for that weapon. that way you have something akin to forma to be desired and bought that also allows players to avoid the rng if they so desire, as it can be a turn off for some people

this way they have:

• a way to compensate those who spent money
• a way to address those who spent time to farm
• another source of income that's not too intrusive
• foundation to build more systems around customizable gear at a base level

[sacred shell]

Yeah they just said "gear upgrades" on their little graphic and didn't elaborate much if they meant the existing joinery upgrades or something new. I'm also hoping there's a clean upgrade system, and it would suffice if they just gave us a stack of free rarity upgrades to apply ourselves or something as you suggest. That's certainly one way they could handle it.

[toxic echo]

main concern i have with this whole idea of random'esque drops is how they'll tie in with weapon slots
the less optimistic side of me thinks this is a way for them to get even more from weapon slots, since they're now tied to how many weapons they've released.
on another hand, i can see how this was just an oversight on their part, as the idea of this system is really cool and makes it so i'll always end a run with something interesting to be gained.

[sacred shell]

"Interesting" for the first month maybe. Once you've seen the whole list of possible modifiers, it'll still get old.

"Oh look, another vasp with +throwspeed, whatever..."

Into the trash it goes

[toxic echo]

one way would be to just do away with weapon slots. They kinda feel bad in this game more than warframe

[sacred shell]

They don't just have weapon slots in either game as a way for income. It's also to limit DB space use. Keeping up with an unlimited number of uniquely modified items has caused them pain in the past. It's also why our riven inventory is limited, but our mod inventory is not.

If they did remove slots as something to purchase, they would still have to set some limit of some kind.

[toxic echo]

another more realistic way could be that weapons of the same name could occupy the same slot, at least until you try to equip them to which they'll pull out a screen where you can select which version to keep (with an option to buy a slot)

or they could just go to the forge on the "to claim" tab which is most likely the case since they do this with lich weapons

(mentioning lichs here just made me realise how cool the lich system could be in this game.... hell now i'm hyped for something that was never mentioned once)

[obtuse yoke]

https://discord.com/channels/998758139405029478/1488769411774025759 look with another eyes

[toxic echo]

Honestly, i dont see how this relates at all to what you've replied to

Unless yiu're replying to my comments as a whole, to which i say yeah, i guess, those are solid propositions but i still dont think we're getting 3 versions of the same weapon

So i dont have much of a say in whether those changes would be good or bad

When they said "ancient" in the devstream my mind immediately read is as soulframe's word for "legendary" or "unique" or "exotic". It just means that lore relevant weapons like the seathorn, igne mora, dwellion, gathanan etc will be craftable with static stuff while common stuff like sollos, vasp and vetch will be dropped with random rolls

[toxic echo]

What is written in the devstream, word for word, capitalization and all:

• Prebuilt ('Standard' and 'Noble') gear drops.
• Even Standards have Qualities & Quirks (RNG).
• Slash crafting requirements, time, moments.
• Fragments for 'Ancients' gear.
• Slot use only on 'Booty Trunk' transfer.
• Tuvalkane still useful (upgrade found weapons).

Notable point 1:
Quality and Quirk being capitalized implies they're not descriptions, but the actual name of the bonuses in game

Quality most likely being referred to stats and Quirk most likely being refered to passives and mechanics

Notable point 2:
'Ancients' keeping the 's' even when refering to gear (singular) implies that the 's' is of either class or possession

The Ancients' gear
As i gear from those who came before (most likely before the ode.)

Which includes Fenn Jotar's Igne Mora, Garen Rood's envoy's Gathanan, they Fey blade Dwellion and its sister blade Witan etc.

Notable point 3:
'Booty Trunk' transfer most likely refers to a new system where found loot goes towards this 'Booty Trunk' in your nightfold, which could be what Mestra Carmo's function within the nightfold as she's the pirate ancestor

Notable point 4:
Upgrade found weapon could either mean we're getting rid of the weapon level through experience, which for the standard and noble weapons would be good as we'd be getting various drops of them

Or it could mean we would be able to reroll and/or upgrade the Qualities and Quirks on the weapons we rolled

[sacred shell]

The booty trunk is likely something we start with, since we'll be getting standard and noble weapons from the very start, and it's probably referring to the concept in warframe where we have stacks of unspecific rivens ("melee riven", "rifle riven", etc) that don't get decided until we decide to take one off the stack.
In other words, it's a place like the "finished crafting" section of our forge. It's just not associated with the forge because we don't start with the forge.

I'm pretty sure Mestra Carmo's function will have to do with the weapon arts rework we've been promised for some time now, but that's also just conjecture at this point based on what they said.

[sacred shell]

Or this could just be referring to the ability to continue using joineries on all weapons at every tier. They didn't elaborate, so... yeah, who knows.

[sacred shell]

"Ancients" as a rarity class above noble, whether it indicates possession or otherwise, doesn't change that there could be "Ancients" quality Sollos-I fragments, for example. It doesn't disprove that that's possible, though I understand how some folks could read it that way.
It's quite possible that "Ancients", "Noble", and "Standard" are the Qualities, referenced in their second point, and Quirks are the RNG stats they mentioned verbally in the stream. In fact, that's what I took away from this.

[sacred shell]

Thanks for typing this out. I'm going to pin it. 😉 --- Edit: or not, because I can't apparently.

That's all I had to add, I agree and see your points otherwise. 🙂

[toxic echo]

Fair enough, that was an oversight in my part, about it being part of Carmo's addition

But the part you mention it is like veiled rivens... I dont think it has merit.

Steve stated it stays in the trunk until you decide to commit to it, so we have to know what it rolled with before commiting or it defeats the whole point.

Also, having it roll only when taking it out of the trunk defeats the purpose of having the reward be after a run, psychologically speaking

[toxic echo]

Feel free to copy it and add it to the main body of the post if you want to!!

[sacred shell]

Yeah, idk, I assumed they wanted it in a trunk so it wouldn't mean storing so much unique randomness in the database.

They seemed to have that problem with rivens and such, so... idk.

[toxic echo]

Fair enough

[sacred shell]

The thing about Carmo, is that it's all conjecture. Your theory is just as likely as mine, so it's fine.

The thing is, overall, I hope you're right and we don't get 3x weapons of every tier. If they just preserve existing rarities, then my entire problem I'm talking about in this thread vanishes and we're good to go.

So by all means, I hope your interpretation is the correct one.

I just fear mine is, and that's the problem.

[toxic echo]

Doubt that because the other two are without an S

Its "of Ancients tier" not "of Ancient tier"

So it implies, unlike Standard and Noble which means the weapon is Standar and Noble, that an Ancients weapon is one that belonged to the Ancients, not that it is an Ancient weapon as in old

Could be a typo, could be an oversight, but i doubt it as steve said as such too, with that distinction

[sacred shell]

There's nothing saying one of the ancients couldn't have owned a Sollos-I at some point.

🤷

Regardless, I do see your point. I just am concerned there's too much wiggle room for misinterpreting this at this time.

Some clarification from DE will either give my concerns merit, or eleminate them entirely.

[toxic echo]

Also, it's almost impossible that Qualities refer to the tiers, as

Standard in "Even Standars will have Qualities & Quirks" Standars is capitalized, refering to the tier of Standar weapons they're defining.

Its not them saying "Even the standard weapons of today will have a Standar, Noble, and Ancients tier with RNG rolls",

it's them saying "Even the Standard gear (the lowest of the 3) will be desireable and exciting through Qualities and Quirks

[sacred shell]

Oooh, good point, so Qualities would have to be a separate thing then.

[toxic echo]

That makes sense, but it also defeats the purpose of having a trunk in the first place since the moment i "open" the weapon i'll need to have a slot ready for it or replace my old one

[sacred shell]

It's possible the open-weapon dialogue would show you the stats and ask if you wanted to keep it or trash/sell it.

But yeah, you wouldn't want to open weapons without slots.

[toxic echo]

That's a really fair point lol
After all i'm just being optimistic and, in doing so, trying to find evidence of it for my minds sake

[sacred shell]

I'm generally a pretty optimistic person, but this thought crossed my mind shortly after the announcement, so I had to make a thread to talk about it. It's a situation I really want to avoid.

[toxic echo]

If they follow their lore, there is.

Everything that talks about something being old in a good and powerful way within the game is referring to a time before the Ode

The Sollos is an Ode weapon, or at least one forged after the Ode

And this time they kinda have no Eternalism to justify it

[sacred shell]

I want to say the ode did visit once before, but I can't remember where that idea came from, so it's possible I just dreamed it. lol

But yeah, fair enough. That said, you said yourself the weapon doesn't have to be old to be owned by an Ancient.

So... idk, maybe there's a few Ancients walking around today? Maybe one picked up a Sollos and infused it with their Magicks? who knows.

[toxic echo]

Im considering it would be like the riven reroll screen where it shows you the old one and the new one, but also have a button to keep both provided you have a slot

I just don't like it cause it feels less like i got a new thing and more like i got the rights to reroll my old one

[sacred shell]

Often these kinds of systems bend the lore a bit if you think about them too hard in other games too, so just becuase we find an "Ancients Sollos-I" doesn't mean it's got any cannon meaning Lore-wise.

[toxic echo]

And it is a really useful thread seen by how many people had a different interpretation from mine

[sacred shell]

Glad to hear that. I do feel better overall hearing from others that they had more optimistic interpretations than mine was.
-# there are also those that have made me more concerned because their take is much more grind-heavy in the near future

I just wish I knew which way DE was leaning on the topic. That's what matters at the end of the day, after all.

[toxic echo]

Ooohhh okay
What i mean by ancient is powerful people from before the Ode invasion.

Fenn Jotar is still around in a ghostly form and Garen Rood is still around period. But i believe there's a difference between Gathannan and Royal Thines, as one would be of Ancients and one would be Noble

That said, there could be Ancients tier of ode weapons but they'd have to come from pretty prominent figures of the Ode

Though, as i brough up knce before in another thread, there's nothing stopping the Ode from establishing an Ancients of their own through the Spellsong, so your argument does hold about an Ancients Sollos

[sacred shell]

Yeah, both sides have equal value/odds in my mind. I'm hoping DE leans your way! 😄

[hardy wave]

I don't think liking rivens is an uncommon take tbh, never seen much dislike for them certainly not as vocal as your opposition is. It allows for weapons that would typically be undervalued and redundant to have use and playability. There is issues for sure, such as there being an evident meta god roll that players will always roll for, but its not outright necessary to get use out of them. Soulframe has an opportunity to upgrade and streamline it, making sure there isn't a clear meta and everything is viable which they can't do with warframe. The one issue I can truly think of is that its not a mod system that you can slot on every version of the weapon, instead its a whole type of the weapon having the rng attributes. That could be extremely problematic in the distinction between ancient and the rng roll ones and thats what I think is important to focus on, not rng bad shouldn't be a thing.

As example, I would typically never built fully for synoid gammacor, the weapon has direct upgrades that make it redundant. But I got a riven recenty and have messed around around with buildcrafting it because it made me genuinely curious and incentived to do so. I understand if you don't like it but some of your points about it are things I've never really seen through the warframe community, such as having a job being problematic or the rng system of it being inherently detrimental to buildcrafting

[sacred shell]

Being vocal and being correct are, often, entirely separate things.
In the circles I frequent, mostly filled with veterans and buildcrafty types, rivens are generally held in some manner of contempt. We use them, when they fit or if we get our hands on a decent one, and a few of us will even shoot for one for a particularly loved weapon, but generally as a mechanic we tend to agree they probably weren't an overall net-positive thing for the game. They're sometimes compared to when kubros had a lottery system for their colors and patterns, which was also a needlessly garbage mechanic.
However, if you hang around people who trade rivens for profit and/or for whatever reason seem to enjoy the endless kuva grind, then, like crypto bros who think their NFTs are the coolest thing, you'll hear much more positive talk about them. It's not that they're correct, they just have opinions, and are vocal.
The whole "God Roll" thing and the market for trading them alone should tell you something is horribly, terribly, wrong with the idea. Anytime a market gets that lop-sided, you just know something unhealthy is going on.

Further, rivens go against my principal that all aspects of the game's gameplay should be accessible in some form to everyone. Yes, I'm a founder, but I have believed for some time that DE should have made at least a stat-identical spin of excal, lato, and skana prime availible to the f2p side of the game. Rivens basically serve as tradable, yet limited, reusable tickets to rides in the warframe theme park, and if you want to meddle with certain mechanics, you often have to have just the right riven to make it work. You're screwed if you can't afford it, or RNG just doesn't decide to smile on you, and that's horrible by itself.

It has been my experience that people who like them either think they're going to make bank on it, or get some kind of weird high out of having something they think few other people can get. Neither of which help the game itself. It's just there to feed egos.

[hardy wave]

I disagree, I don't trade rivens full stop and get no high out of it yet enjoy the system and find it beneficial and I'm fairly confident that's not a minority opinion. Theres so many sources of kuva that its hardly a difficultly rolling one weapon to be at least decent.

[sacred shell]

Good for you.

[hardy wave]

You can get what like 100k kuva a week just from the weekly stores, its by no means horrible to try to use

Especially for accessibility I can't see what you;re saying. The modding system in general is much less accessible to newer players than the riven system is. The endo and credit grind alone is much more difficult than getting enough kuva for a decent riven, and with the amount of mods in the game for the amount of things you need them for, rivens are hardly more inaccessible. If you pick and choose how to see it and only view it as ego than fair enough do what you want, but there's certainly a merit to how the system works regardless of its flaws that I'm not ignoring. I also don't get what content you're locked out of without a perfect riven for your build, theres many weapons that a riven wouldn't even help due to low disposition that you could use for pretty much any content in the game and get away with it.

You meaning that a specific weapons riven is locked to you and not explicitly accessible without rng or buying it, if so I get that.

[sacred shell]

• Nobody cares about getting "a riven" but everyone wants that specific one for that one build, weapon, or idea they want to try out a specific way. Talking in generalities about just any old riven is a waste of time.
• Rivens are mods that also cost endo and credits to level, so anything bad you want to say about the modding system directly applies to rivens by nature of rivens being a child feature of that parent system.

If a new player gets through the game and lets say he reaches steel path and is working on getting his galvanized mod set together, but maybe he's got one good favorite zaw he's been using to carry himself along but he's feeling like it's lacking some punch for steel path content. He decides he wants a riven for it. How long does it take for him to get a godroll for his specific zaw without opening his wallet and trading for one?
Would he be better off grinding ducats and/or reaching for endo to max out more melee mods, or ginding out better zaw/melee arcanes? I think he would be. By far.

Rivens don't add any meaningful progression. The build options they do add could easily be added via some other less RNG way and get the same effect. (and in fact most are added by mods or some other gear item) The riven disposition isn't even based on how powerful the weapon is, but rather how much it's used. That's why there's rivens for things that now have incarnons, and still have insanely high riven dispositions.
It was never about balance, it was a failed attempt at managing weapon popularity at a higher level by trying to create fluidity around the meta. The problem was that it was too hard to get 'meta' rivens, so it didn't actually do anything on that front. It just created a weirdly inflated riven market for whales, and added power-creep for these select few 'elite' players with deeper plat pockets.

Their combined RNG, scarcity, and cost make them elitist fodder the majority of the time.

Bringing this back to the main topic, at least tangentially, one of the fears is that these new RNG stat rolls will be just as finicky to get good rolls on, and will be meaningless a majority of the time as a result, except for those few elite players that either grind or get lucky and have the "god rolls".
People who have high hopes for such a system have some kind of reason to think they'll be one of the ones with a godroll. And to their credit, they may no-life the game until they get one.
But, like I've said before, I have a day job already. This game isn't it. So in the same way, such a grind just isn't going to make me happy at all.

I don't expect to see a lot of value, personally, and my friend group likely won't either, out of the new RNG stats. Again, they could surprise me with a solid system with good pity thresholds so getting the modifiers you want isn't a nightmare, but I really expect the opposite from past experience with DE on systems like this.

Honestly the biggest upside to me, if this system comes in the way I expect, will be being able to get low-quality versions of rarer weapons for mastery so I only have to expend that effort on weapons I actually care about.

DE adds another rare sword? No problem, I'll grab a standard copy, beat it into enemies until it hits 30, toss it and move on.

Does that cheapen the mastery grind? you betcha.

Do I think that's a good thing for the game? No.

Am I going to use it anyway to shorten the amount of grind I personally have to deal with? Absolutely.

But that also means that, unless there's a fairly easy upgrade path to reach ancient tier, I won't have a reason to hold onto hardly anything in my inventory that isn't ancient tier. I'll probably keep the magic weapons, since those are one of my things, along with the bows and like one of each melee weapon until I can replace them all with ancient versions.
I don't want to see large swaths of my current arsenal become landfill fodder though. There's a lot of my very limited time in this at this point. It's taken me a year, off and on around my work and life schedules, to get to this point.

And, I did buy a second seathorn. If they don't define that as an ancient weapon, I'll probably never spend arcs on a weapon again, because that's a ripoff. I'm positive I'm not the only one who will feel that way on the day this lands.

And that's part of this right: I'm here talking about this now, as a potential problem, months in advance because I have kept up to date with the game and I have that connection with it to have that kind of foresight.
When the update gets here, if they do demolish a large portion of their player's arsenals with this change, you better believe a ton of people will show up to complain. It won't be pretty.

We can talk about it peacefully now, but if that day comes this place will almost literally catch fire.

There's almost always at least one person asking somewhere in this discord about whether or not there will be more wipes. Why? Becasue they want to know how much their investment into this game will stick around. They get told "de said not unless something exceptional happens" or something to that effect.
Then they log in and see DE is taking money for some things, and assume like I did, that they wouldn't be selling aspects of the game that weren't basically set in stone at this point. Sure, they might have to nerf an individual pact or weapon a bit, here or there, but in general most things in the market should be safe, right?

This new system, if they convert people's arsenals to it poorly, has the opportunity to be a 'soft' wipe. Sure, we technically "keep" everything, but in that nightmare scenario nothing we keep is worth keeping.

[zinc dew]

+1

[next sun]

+1 The concern is very real when it comes to real life money on the line. If they actually want to implement the "new system" as is it should come only for future weapons and the current existing ones should be the best tier ( since punishing the current players that invested their time to get their arsenal is a big no no )

BUT, there will always be people complaining about that new extra rng on rng system

[bleak sedge]

Or they can just refund a portion of currency for those that bought anything being changed. It doesn’t make sense to give everyone a “best tier” of every weapon they earned prior to this change if it happens. Time will be invested regardless, who’s to say the grind to get the best won’t be much longer?

[cunning kettle]

Duhk Halic and Juniper are examples of quest weapons that you get after completing certain things. What aout them?

[warm surge]

-1
Its your fault for overfarming something in a pre alpha game

Spending money on the game out of your imptience with a game that doesnt have much content anyways is also your fault

[restive silo]

Maybe so, but again. Once real money is introduced, the excuse that it is a pre-alpha is no longer acceptable.

If you spend fifty bucks on a product in real life, and the product is only in its first wave. Is it acceptable when people show up to your house, take the product away, and don’t refund you? Is that okay?

What would you say if someone spent a hundred on the paragon pack, but then all the paragon items got removed from the game, and anyone who spent the money just wasted it?

They gave stuff in the game a monetary value. That has to be considered now

[sacred shell]

The entire idea that I'm somehow at fault and should be punished for supporting a game in alpha is just so bent.
I really don't get how people somehow get themselves to believe that.

That said, the lack of transparency here is discouraging me from investing any time or money into the game further than I have, until I hear what's going to happen for real.

I do wish DE would notice this threads and others like it and make a note on a hotfix or say something in a stream somewhere soon.

[toxic echo]

What in the world is wrong with you?

"its your fault for supporting the game"

[sacred shell]

It's an opinion born out of cynicism. I know I said I don't get it, but I somewhat do, I just have a hard time wrapping my own head around it a lot of the time. He's not the only person who's said something to that effect so far in this thread.
That sentiment comes from regularly getting screwed in other games by other developers. It's a deep seated form of mistrust that tells them that investing in anything "too early" is foolish. What sucks is that there is a good reason to feel that way about games these days.
The sad part is that if people don't invest in games like this early, then they don't happen. A kind of trust has to be extended by someone, or else nothing can be built.
I might be a fool for investing in this game too early. I still don't think that means I was at fault and "deserve" whatever happens to me as a result.

DE made a choice to use their extensive community as unpaid testing manpower, and then recently they made the choice to take our money for ingame items. Both choices have strong upsides, but they also come with a certain weight of responsibility DE now has to live up to.
I don't see that as a problem. They've lived up to it just fine in the past, and I expect they will again. Respecting people's time and money spent, is part of their responsibility.

That said, as one of those unpaid testers and a customer, I also realize it's my responsibility to raise a red flag and say something when I see a potential problem coming. Preferably in advance, as I'm attempting to do here, so they can compensate for it early. Before it becomes a problem. So long as DE hold up their end of the deal, I'll hold up mine.

[tawdry falcon]

It is just sad seeing the community making it harder for DE to make a good game. DE is no saint either. They knew what they were doing when they made the money move.

The pre-alpha excuses, and now the "You bought it in a pre-alpha. That is on you". Just imagine, if they truly cared for this game's success, and subsequently DE's, that they would think about who is keeping their lights on, and who is this "foolish" individual believing in them early, that they would be more understanding of the situation. If it was not for us supporting the game, and the same with Warframe, would these people have a game to discuss?

I am beyond irritated with people afraid to hurt the multi million dollar company's feelings for simply being critical of its flaws for no other reason than to help it improve. You see it in almost every highly-critical thread.

[bleak sedge]

An rng system is pointless if we are just going to give everyone prior to P15 the best version of everything meanwhile any new player (keep in mind it’s still pre-alpha) will have to farm normally. Sounds like a participation award to me

[warm surge]

I dont thing weapons that were rare are gonna be removed, but its in normal progression of the game that something better comes out

[warm surge]

Youre twisting my words. You should support the game, but you shouldnt cry over money you spent because what you bought isnt the strongest anymore

[warm surge]

You are not right. All i said is that if you bought an in game item this early in the game ( just for the item itself, and not for supporting the game ) thats on you. You cant expect it to be the strongest thing ever for god knows how long.

Im saying you should support the game, but shouldnt expect for someone to hold ur hand cuz u gava a few pennies

[sacred shell]

If they were adding some new 4-star weapons that surpassed the 3star ones I have, I'd be fine with it. That's not what this is, and you know it.
They're not creating new weapons, they're redefining the scales. I simply want to be in the same place I am now after the redefinition.
From my point of view, with the time and resource investment I've put in so far, I see myself as having the equivalent of ancient gear at the moment. I'm just asking to have that carry over.
I'm not asking for future weapons or what have you to be gifted to me.

[sleek belfry]

whatever the 'ancient' tier is that requires crafting, is what our current gear should be set to when this update drops

I think this assumes one of two possible implementations, but we don't know what the system will be yet.

My assumption is that rare gear (3 stars), like Gathannan and Igne Mora, will be Ancient items, which have to be crafted. It makes sense, because they're ancient relics.

Then common/uncommon gear (1/2 stars) will be Standard and Noble, since they're not ancient relics. You can find a Nettle in a chest, or loot a Vasp-IV off a Sinecure.

-# (I can't really imagine an 'ancient nettle' - what is that, lore-wise? This is why I think this is how the system works)

Until we know what the system is, this will all be speculative for now!

[sacred shell]

Yeah, some others have suggested they're just renaming the current rarity system like that. That seems less likely to me, since... idk, what's the point? It's far less of a big deal if they're just saying "oh, 1 and 2 stars won't have to be crafted, and also we're renaming the rarity tiers".
So idk why they would be talking about it this early if that's all it was.
Still, if that's what it turns out to be, then my issue here is irrelivant and/or already fixed, depending on how you look at it.

idk, maybe they were more concerned with the idea of RNG stats added to weapons.

Frankly I don't need or want RNG gear. I've stated before I didn't like rivens, and similar systems are rarely implimented in a way that respects anyone's time.

Gambling with no monetary payout, is still a form of gambling. It still acts as a fishhook in people's brains, and not for the good reasons.

Traders and youtubers love it, because it creates a kind of irrational demand as a result of that effect.

Regardless, I don't expect to have the "best gear" in p15. They'll probably introduce new weapons in that update as well, and possibly new armor and pacts. But I do want what I have now to translate into an equivalent. And what I have right now is top tier, so I would expect it to be relatively top tier post-rework of this rarity system. New gear will drop, and I'll have to farm that, (and some of it will likely be better than what I have, which is fine) but turning our current set into scrap isn't something I think we should tolerate.

[warm surge]

I mean im sure it will be better off than having a tier 2 weapon.

The only rpg ive played that had big changes was WoW, and when the new expansion comes you have a significant advantage in going throu the new content if u had top tier weapons. No one is crazy to just de-lvl a weapon or armor for no reason to be worse than the others lol

[sacred shell]

I left WoW for this exact reason. Realizing they would power creep every expansion and then crush our levels every so often was a massive turnoff.
Regardless: This is not a new WoW expansion. It's not even close to the same thing. It's a rework of some mechanics. Having my gear made irrelivant by the same gear copy/pasted without so much as a new skin is a fundamentally insane concept in even the most egregiously anti-player games.

[warm surge]

I think hard grinding and getting feelings for smth this early is not smart unless you do it for fun.
Your feelings about your invested time shouldnt get in the way of game progress.

[sacred shell]

How does my feelings for how my gear should be preserved across to the new update stop or slow game progress?
They're still allowed to do whatever they're going to do. Whether I land on the other side with standard or noble or ancient gear doesn't change the update for anyone else.
If you get to the other side with ancient gear you don't want, you're free to delete it and start over. I'll allow it. 😄

[warm surge]

Im sure the gear present will keep the rarity it has

[sacred shell]

Good for you, I'm obviously not 100% certain, hence this thread.

[toxic echo]

you should and here's why:
prior to this update gear had no variance. So whatever it is you bought from the store, you knew the state it would be in. It was an informed choice.
If something you bought turns out to be the worst version of itself, this should be disclosed at checkout. Plus, people who already spent money could not take into consideration that this sort of randomness would ever be a thing, and depending on how bad the bad roll is compared to the good ones, it might as well be as if they just took your stuff away

If bought stuff turns out to be worse once p15 comes around, i might as well never spend a dime on this game, since that's the company saying the money i spent is not being respected

so yes, you're saying "that's on you for supporting the game"

[toxic echo]

You're then mistaking powercreep for a rug pull:

if i bought the "Erstroot" thinking it to be the strongest staff, and the Ode staff turns out to be way stronger on launch, that's on me for not understanding powercreep

if i bought the "Dwellion" because i like the sword and it is a pain to farm, and they make the one i paid for weaker than it already is for the sake of adding a stronger version of itself, that's a rug pull and the trust between developer and consumer is broken

[sleek belfry]

If bought stuff turns out to be worse once p15 comes around

It sounds like the P15 upgrade system might make sure that it's the opposite? Like you can upgrade all gear to be endgame viable? (I hope that's how it'll be at least!)

[toxic echo]

they said for the first 2 tiers of weapons we'll be getting them as drops with somewhat random "Quirks & Qualities" whatever that turns out to be. The 3rd tier will be farmed through fragments and presumably not that randomized

no mention of upgrading or rerolling randomized gear as of yet

though it is most likely coming

the point of this thread is that it would feel horrible if people who bought stuff with arcs had their stuff downgraded for the sake of favoring the new system

[sleek belfry]

It was the bottom bullet point, it said Tuvalkane will still have a purpose as she can upgrade our found weapons 😄 #1487627973749243965 message

[toxic echo]

my bad, upgrade yeah but reroll not so sure

i took that upgrade as a stand in for leveling up our weapons. since well be getting plenty more weapons to go about, having to level each and every one of them through activities could become tiresome

that said, that's just me thinking a bit too deep, no proof of that

[sleek belfry]

yeah no idea about rerolls for the randomised stuff, we'll have to see how it turns out but what I'm hoping is that we can upgrade the randomised stuff in kind of a 'diminishing returns' system, where if you reeeally invest into a weapon you can get great stats, but it takes a lot of resources so it still feels exciting to find good stats from the get go

and if that's the case then I do hope people's existing standard/noble gear gets placed onto mid-high stat rolls in the update, it seems only fair!

[warped badge]

DE have made it SUPER clear over and over again that we are playing the early access version of the game and it is subject to significant ongoing changes throughout that time. Any purchase made or time dedicated to farming was made in this knowledge. You can't have a whinge about that time and money going to "waste" when you have known the entire time that the outcome of that time and money could completely change.

[zinc dew]

To be fair, it would be DE fault, don't sell things that early in development then.

Not saying I have a problem with it, but they should know that once real money is involved they lose the agency to do whatever they want with this stuff.
Either it's a pre-alpha OR you make money selling things, you can't just have the privileges of being both released and unreleased.

This whole thread would not exist in that case, or at least have less implications.
---)

[bleak sedge]

Unless they changed the weapon to a literal piece of cheese none of that can be used here. Every weapon will still be the same weapon you bought as far as mechanics. Whether they are weaker or not it really doesn’t matter things get nerfed/changed in any game, yes even things you spent money on.

They have already said systems as a whole will changed throughout preludes so anyone spending money atm is setting themselves up for disappointment if they overlook that.

[warped badge]

"It would be DE fault"

"they lost the agency to do whatever they want"

Both of these statements are categorically false. It would be the fault of the person using their paid currency during the experimental development phase where DE has made it clear things will change drastically and constantly. They absolutely retain the agency to do whatever they want throughout the entire Preludes and until the game enters a phase where they change their messaging of drastic and constant change.

As for this bizarre idea that being in early access means they can't introduce paid currency, that the choice is between being in pre-alpha or selling things, you do realise paid early access exists right? And paid currency during early access exists. Neither of these are new or particularly heinous concepts.

[toxic echo]

It was too early to add microtransaction, still is. Founders pack? Okay, i get it. But buying arcs straight up? Buying slots and weapons? Was a problem waiting to happen

[toxic echo]

Yeah seeling stuff in early access exists. The game is in "pre-alpha".

Not early access, pre-alpha.
If the company considers the game to be this early in development, adding all of these microtransaction strategies while a ton of stuff is either unfinished or missing is:

1 - sending a clear message about the game's direction and list of priorities

2 - setting itself for problems like this since money spent this early in dev is not being respected

[hearty sparrow]

there are laws against this type of thing, maybe not exactly what DE is doing, but you do understand that just cause DE said something, doesn't mean it's automatically right

[toxic echo]

Now just so you understand the problem at hand.

It would be one thing for them to nerf a weapon that's too strong. People who bought it knew it was subject to balance

It would be one thing to buy a weapon and have it change drastically to improve it's performance like the bow rework. Many things in the game are subject to change.

But the issue OP is raising is as follow:

In his interpretation of the changes planned for p15, they will add 3 variations of each weapon. 2 with random drop and stats, one that will be craftable through fragments, which will necessarily be stronger.

It would be extremely disrespectful on DE's part to make the weapons we currently have, which many have bought, underperform for them to add the same thing we had again at a cost.

Would be paying twice for the same thing, either with money or time

Cause think with me, if you were to buy something from the store in p15, you would expect the item to either come in its best state, or have the odds of it being so disclosed to you so you can make an informed decision at the very least. None of which people who already bought will be subject to once the update drops

[toxic echo]

Saying stuff like this and being complacent this way will only be harmful in the long run. I was already having a hard time convincing myself to spend money on this game which i do like. If it turns out that stuff people bought are made worse for the sake of this system i might as well never spend a dime on this game

[toxic echo]

Also, it's not a nerf if the same weapon you bought still exists and performs the exact same way it did. All OP is asking for is that the stuff people bought will not be the worst version of itself on e this update drops

Cause as i said, in p15 stuff you buy from the store will either be the best version of it, or will have the odds of it being the best disclosed so peopel can make an informed decision

[warped badge]

“There are laws against this type of thing.”

“Maybe not exactly what DE is doing.”

Then what is it? Are they breaking a law or not? And if the answer is they’re not breaking a law, what was the point in this comment? 😂

[next sun]

Pretty sure the point here isnt about law breaking but about the future of players simply not spending any money ever because everything can and will be changed drastically ( which inevitably kill soulframe )

[warped badge]

“Just so you understand” don’t be so condescending 😂 I understand perfectly well what OP was saying, and I understand what you’re all saying - your point is not as complex as you think it is.

What I’m saying is that DE has made it clear over and over again throughout Preludes and in the terms we all agreed to when we started playing that everything from individual items to major systems are eligible for constant and significant change, and an individual’s decision to purchase paid currency and use it in a pre-alpha to buy content knowing it is likely to change and being mad about it is on you, not DE.

Don’t like the paid currency? Don’t buy it. Don’t like the gameplay decisions they’re making? Don’t play - or wait till the stable end product to make your decision.

You’re free to personally not like what they’re doing, but to act like it’s some great evil - that DE are at any kind of objective fault, or like an individual’s decision to buy and use paid currency is their fault - is asinine.

For the love God have some bloody accountability.

[toxic echo]

There are laws agains this kind of practice you're defending

We do not know if that's what DE will do as the update is not around yet. After all, most of this thread is just speculation

[restive silo]

The thing is though, DE introduced premium currency. Everything that can be bought with Arcs now has monetary value

[warped badge]

You say this like Soulframe 1.0 is going to be as in-flux as Preludes is and there’s never going to be a point where you have a pretty good idea of what your money is going to buy. Do you genuinely think that will be the case?

[restive silo]

This is the same thing as if you buy a new coffee maker, then someone breaks into your house, swaps it for a worse one, and says, we changed the model.

Rough but simple comparison

[next sun]

The case can be that soulframe wont even reach 1.0 since its apparent DE needs to start making money from these preludes versions ( if they didnt there wouldn't even be a premium shop)

[warped badge]

I’m begging you to show me the law that shows DE is acting illegally and I’ll be right there with you filing the class action lawsuit against them 😂

[toxic echo]

Aaaaand you once again missed the point

[hearty sparrow]

right now laws about that are still murky, which is one of the many concerns

[toxic echo]

Try "reading" it'll help you greatly

[hearty sparrow]

this isn't some conspiracy theory, companies have and will find loopholes and grey areas to make as much profit as they can without getting themselves in trouble

until one of them makes a mistake and the law is able to set a precedent

after that whoever does it next can be held accountable

[restive silo]

I doubt DE intentionally did any of this maliciously, I think they just didn’t plan ahead when adding Arcs in full

But it is still a issue now

[warped badge]

I didn’t miss your point, you ignored mine so you could yammer on, and you continue to now.

[hearty sparrow]

i just dont get it, it's a prealpha, so many things are subject to change, the founders program is more than enough, and they're well funded with warframe

[warped badge]

Oh no I’m just such a dumb dumb, I can’t read. So please, since you know of this law that prohibits what DE is doing, again, I’m asking you to cite it.

Or could it be that you’re actually talking out of your ass and what they’re doing ain’t actually illegal lol.

[toxic echo]

I do too, i dont think this is malicious which is why it is so important we share feedback about this

Its just so weird to me that some people seem to be complacent with anything that comes their way

[next sun]

Ok you guys should stop going for personal attacks. ( no point doing it here in a feedback page)

[restive silo]

Agreed. This is for sharing opinions, not necessarily debating

We shouldn’t be getting aggressive or hostile

[hearty sparrow]

and what about all the times companies have done things that were technically legal at the time, only to be made illegal in the future?

does that mean it was ok for them to do what they did?

[warped badge]

Not complacent, just have the discernment and accountability to hold my Arx until the game launches or accept responsibility for anything I do purchase in the meantime. It’s not difficult.

[toxic echo]

I understand why:
They already introduced some core mechanics of DE's business model to soulframe.

Slots and rushing cost arcs. Before there was no way of buying it, so we had to deal with what they gave us.

But they wanted to add arcs to the founders pack to increase its perceived value.

Only they couldn't make the only way to acquire arcs at the moment to be through the founder packs, as they're expensive, so they added in the option to buy only just

It was not greedy or malicious in any regard, but it was a move that fundamentally change how the game should be handled

[warped badge]

Not my point. They keep saying it’s illegal, I’m asking them to cite the law that prohibits it. Apparently it’s out there and so obvious, so I’m asking them to cite it.

It’s important for us to provide feedback right? If it’s illegal, and someone can actually point to the law that prohibits it, shouldn’t we want to know that so we can tell DE straight away and they can try to fix it?

[restive silo]

Just going to copy paste this since it goes along with this:

The thing is though, DE introduced premium currency. Everything that can be bought with Arcs now has monetary value

That monetary value now needs to be considered

It’s a product

[toxic echo]

Try "reading" because i was "translating" what the other guy said to you, not saying they're breaking any laws

[hearty sparrow]

I don't think anyone is saying it's definitively illegal, but questionable at best, and it leaves a bad taste
Stuff like this takes a lot of research to make an actual conclusion on legality, but our feelings on this topic are singnificant and raise a valid concern

and we can only use other instances in the industry as an example to compare and explain the point

[next sun]

you do understand by having this debate about laws breaking or not you make this feedback page with actual concerns into trash talking chat?

[hearty sparrow]

if this was clear cut illegal, we wouldn't be talking about this and there would already be a lawsuit

[toxic echo]

But if you actually want it, various consumer protection acts around the world prohibits unfair, fraudulent and/or deceptive business practices, which this could fall under depending how it is handled which is why we're bringing it up 2 preludes away

[warped badge]

People literally said “there are laws prohibiting this”, a definitive statement

[warped badge]

Oh and look, that not so definitive little “could” worms it’s way in

[restive silo]

Always depends on the court. So yes. Law is a lot of, could.

Lawsuit would follow, beyond reasonable doubt. (At least in the US), so it would be up to the judge to decide

[hearty sparrow]

Prohibiting this "kind of practice" as in similar practices

[toxic echo]

Completely agree

[hearty sparrow]

Again, this is how these things start making their way to become a certainty, people who have malicious intent and want to make money will not make it blatant and expose themselves to legal action, they'll find loopholes
Which means it takes discussions and a lot of looking under the hood to determine if things are done lawfully

And even if things are done according to the law they still won't always be morally right

[warped badge]

I absolutely agree. I think the legal arguments that were first made were inaccurate and derail the conversation from any meaningful feedback. That’s the entire reason I pressed the point.

[hearty sparrow]

Which is what prompts law changes

[warped badge]

Because there is no law that definitely prohibits what’s happened here, and to insinuate that there is, is really crappy behaviour towards DE.

[hearty sparrow]

I mean adding mtx only makes this a more valid feedback

Lol, so DE can't make mistakes?

[toxic echo]

"there are laws agains this kind of thing you're defending" does not mean they're doing it

That's why it "could"

Cause if they do, it will, but they're not as far as we can tell and we have to wait for the update to be sure

[warped badge]

I think it was a faux pas that they added microtransactions so early, likely to sweeten the deal for Founders - but it’s not illegal.

At some point as players playing a pre-alpha game subject to change, when you make the individual decision to purchase paid currency, and you use that paid currency in a pre-alpha knowing things will change, you should accept some responsibility for your individual actions.

[hearty sparrow]

How many game companies were praised by players only to become utterly hated?
There's precedent to this atleast

What about adding weapons to be purchased with arcs?

[next sun]

Guys please, arguing about consumer laws in this feedback page is really not productive. (this page was made to talk about DE "maybe" making current preludes version gear trash by implementing the same gear but with better stats you need to re-farm/re-buy in P15)

[toxic echo]

Hey, i'll drop the law argument, it wasn't even mine to begin with.

I agree with the responsibility thing at a personal level, really do. That's why i haven't even bought the founders pack even though i love this game.

But this thread is not at the personal level, it's feedback on how to conduct business going forward.

Because i dont know about you, but making everything people bought worse by default, not due to balancing, not doing to powercreep, but as a way to justify the new system where you can buy it all again would be such a rug pull i would consider never spending money on this game.

And i know this is just me, but at least in this thread there are enough people who sorta share this view, and as a business that would not feel yood for anyone.

It's a trust that should not be broken, specially this lightly

[next sun]

Exactly this^ nice summary

[toxic echo]

I dont believe this will happend. If you roll way up you'll see i'm in this thread because i thought op's interpretation was wrong and wanted to add a different view

[next sun]

Yes this whole long feedback is made so this type of rug pull wont even happen in the hope DE see this and see the future problems that might happen

[warped badge]

I mean, they’re likely to look at the threads with the most messages, so maybe it’ll help? 😂

[toxic echo]

Do believe it too, that's why the +1 started

Honestly, at this point they should've added the upvote and down vote to the feedback forum a long time ago

[next sun]

true that would initially show DE what the views of the majority without reading long long feedback pages

[warped badge]

I agree with the moral argument and I personally think Arx implementation was messy, and I’m watching the implementation of this new system closely. If it’s mishandled, I’ll be raising hell like everyone else.

I just don’t like legal arguments around these topics where there’s not actually a specific currently applicable law that definitively prohibits something. It’s important that legal arguments are separated from moral or personal arguments.

God forbid a claim that there’s laws prohibiting what they’ve done where a specific law can’t be cited actually did lead to people not spending money on the game, because that could be considered defamation, which absolutely has a legal precedent 😅

Anyway, this isn’t me trying to “get the last word”, it’s me trying to say from a moral and personal perspective I agree that Arx were mishandled and I hope this new system is implemented responsibly.

Don’t know how I’d feel about us say getting max rolls because we played early enough in Preludes, but stuff that’s good enough to still handle endgame would be ideal.

[toxic echo]

Honestly, fair enough!

[toxic echo]

Oh, totally, though i do think what we have right now should be equivalent to what's sold on the store when p15 launchs, as that'd be set to be the standard

Unless they're thinking of making every weapon a gacha for stats, at which point that's a whole 'nother problem too big for thes post lol

[sacred shell]

Legally DE can do whatever they want. I haven't looked specifically in the EULA for soulframe, but most games these days, for the purposes of moderation, have a clause somewhere in them that basically says they reserve the right to refuse and remove services to someone at any time at their own discretion.
So legally, yeah, sure, they can probably toast our entire accounts if they want and be fine.
But doing that en-mass to people who didn't do anything wrong also isn't good business practices. It would alienate a lot of people.
Just because something flies in judicial court, does not mean it will pass the court of public opinion.

The concern here is that this could easily become a soft-wipe if handled improperly. Sure, we technically keep what we have now, but if the entire game gets re-balanced around a new power-crept system, and our existing gear doesn't get scaled up to match, then we've effectively been reset back to square one.
This sucks hard for anyone who has invested time or money into the game expecting their gear to at least hold its place in current content. Knowing it's alpha is one thing, but they did also say no more wipes. I know there was a * attached to that, and they might need to make an exception here or there, but when they start taking money for something on top of that, you will just have to forgive me for assuming that meant they were confident in that part of the game not getting wiped again.
In my mind, when DE starts taking money for something, they have a duty to be responsible with how they handle that thing. "Alpha" be damned.

And to be clear, I don't think it's their intent to be irresponsible with it. I just think sometimes things get overlooked, and I want to make sure this isn't one of those things.

[warm surge]

Exactly

[warm surge]

Paying for stuff in a pre alpha game is like donations basically

[warm surge]

Laws against putting the numbers down on a virtual sword?

[hearty sparrow]

yes, it falls under the consumer protection law, specifically the competition act

[warm surge]

So if i go to warframe ans buy sirin prime and it gets merfed i can suo someone? Givr me a break

[hearty sparrow]

i'm just telling you what i found so far when researching this

[warm surge]

What would u do if i got league of legends or smth and bought a skin and it got reworked, snd u end up not liking it?

[hearty sparrow]

i think i gave you enough information to make your own inquiry

cause i dont wanna drag the convo away from this thread's original point again

[zinc dew]

If the skin is reworked within 1 to 2 year of you buying it depending on the nature of the change, yes, an European customer is entitled to full reimbursement.
I know multiple people that indeed have been reimbursed LOL skins.

And those laws makes perfect sense.
They assure you that, if you for some weird reason decide to buy for thousand of euros of random digital goods, those can't be taken from you or significantly altered (at least the first year).
It is also true in term of mechanics (again feel free to check), if the item is explicitly advised as having X or Y or property.

Is it pertinent ? No.
But it definitely exists and is applied, which is good, more protection for customers.

[zinc dew]

Call it donations then.

From an in-game perspective that is just a cash shop, most players aren't even on this discord.
There is also no disclaimer if you try to purchase anything in game (those are here and on the website) nor are there any disclaimers during arc purchase.

Well, that is besides the point, but don't pretend this is normal to have a functioning cash shop allowing you to buy what is basically WIP items.
This is not a released game, there are no certainity about how those systems will look in time, and therefore they should not be purchasable with real money.
Especially with so little time between the potential purchases and modifications of said systems.

To stay on the subject, I don't even think P15 will radically change what anyone as acquired thus far (and don't even care if it does).
It simply should not feel like a full reset.

Not because I think a full reset would be bad, but because DE promised "ideally, no more resets" and jumping around words to do one regardless would not be the best PR stunt, that's all.

[sacred shell]

I do think they were premature in adding a cash shop to the game.
That said, that is the decision they made, and they should be ready to live with the consequences of making it. If it causes them inconvenience in development, then that should have been a factor they considered when making that decision.
It's not my fault they jumped the gun for profit.

I did buy a founders pack back in warframe's beta as a donation. Didn't even really care all that much about excal at the time. I knew the game and the company were navigating some funding issues. That's what the founder pack then was advertised as being - a way for them to get funding without fickle investors.
I liked their ideas and backed them out of sheer faith, and the hope that they would make something cool. They did, and I count that as a solid investment.

Soulframe is in no such situation where it needs donations to survive to my knowledge. If they're taking money, it's for profit and nothing else, and should signal the game is stable enough to be selling those things without screwing over their customer base. Even their founders packs are not the same as the ones warframe had in that regard.

Also, side note, I don't care what they call it at this point. Its in a semi-open beta where you ether pay or get an invite to play. Calling it "Alpha" is just a marketing ruse, and everyone should just own up to that at this point. Same as how warframe was basically fully released for years with a beta tag still on it from DE. It's marketing semantics, not hard facts about anything tangible.
Alpha testing, by definition, is much closer to what they're doing in-house on their dev branch before we see it out here.
Someone might have been able to make an argument for it still being alpha when DE had full control over the invites being sent out, but even then those were random, not carefully selected, and the users have never been anything more than random people.

"Alpha Testing" is supposed to be a hand-selected group of folks who are especially good and dedicated to testing the finer points of the game. Usually this is in-house QA testers, but sometimes it can be a tiny subset of the eventual customer base, if you can find some who are particularly dedicated to the task. Usually comes with special testing tools and backdoor access to some parts of the system for testing purposes. Only the earliest preludes actually fit the definition of an alpha test, really, and even then it's a stretch.

Beta testing is anything given to a wider, less-dedicated group, with any or no requirements on the testers to return anything useful from their testing, and usually no special tools or access granted. Usually this turns up more broad issues with performance and accessibility. It's what we're doing now.

Anyone saying "but it's alpha" will be replied to with: "no it's not"
It's entirely false, and I'm tired of hearing it.

[tame mortar]

This thread is still going in circles.

I just want to reiterate that if you chose to spend Arcs(plat) to rush items or skip grinds then you're chosing to "waste" arcs either way.

It doesnt matter how long those items are meta for. You chose to skip the grind in a live service product where better items are inevitable.

If you think they shouldn't have put MTX in a game in Alpha, thats fine, but that's also an entirely different conversation and I don't expect them to revert anything like that.

It's kind of childish to have the mindset of "I spent MTX to skip the grind for this item, so the developers have to make sure that this item is relevant just for me".

Also this has all just spiraled out of control on speculations.

[sacred shell]

Yay character attacks now? calling us childish? Really?
You can say whatever you want as many times as you want, it's not going to make you correct morally or factually.

[zinc dew]

Weirdly I kinda agree on one point, it is too soon for this thread.

For the Arcs point I would say it's less black and white than that.
Some people spend arc to skip grind in the live service game to get items that they feel are -relevant to them- and will be for at least a short time.
I will never say that an item must be kept relevant, but I do say that once you start selling those items you should not make drastic changes under too short notice.
... Which is exactly why you shouldn't have cash shop in unreleased games, it adds a pressure to not alter things too wildly, while altering things is supposedly the point of having an open-beta.

Still, you are right, this is not the subject and only wild speculations.
We'll see when we have more precise information about what will happen.

It effectively spiraled out of control and we'll all try to stay on point next time I hope 😁

[sacred shell]

Yep, it's speculation. It's in the title. P15. Can't be anything but speculation at this point.
That said, what they said about that prelude, early, so we could talk about it, raised concerns for me, and for others, clearly.
So if you think this thread is "too soon" you are free to cease engaging with it. I think they intended for us to have these conversations, so I obviously disagree with that take outright.

I did try to keep it on topic at one point but people like Raion here keep coming back with the same questions and arguments over and over again trying to drive it off course.

If you don't think talking about whether a cash shop should be in the game is on-topic, then stop reiterating points on that topic and get back on the main topic.

You absolutely do not get to post your points, then say other people are off topic as a way to keep them from being challenged.

[zinc dew]

Maybe you are right and they intend for us to discuss P15. It just feels, at least to me, that we don't have enough information to have a meaningful position on the subject besides:
"A big change to a core mechanic is scary, especially if we have invested mountains of hours and/or money.
We need information to know what it would entails."
Which I would hope they already know.

Regarding the cash-shop I'm simply saying that it aggravates this thread, and it would be easier to ponder drastic mechanics/acquired inventories changes if it wasn't in the equation.
Therefore it is not the subject, but it sometimes can be brought back, ideally fast in passing, when -cow-boys 🤠- forget that some people are financially invested. (Without opening the can of worms of "should they have been to begin with ?", some of us are not warframe veterans and fall in pitfalls, or simply, do not realise how fast things change and new items appears.
As pointed out earlier, there are no in-game disclaimers at any point in the cash shop.)

I'm sorry for inadvertently diverting your topic.

I indeed hope, like you, that our actual gear will by default be of ancient rarity, or whatever will ultimately be the -best- aka the only one that will be used in time.
I'm just not that mad if it isn't, and think it would be terribly bad PR, by being a soft reset, something they said wouldn't happen.
I guess DE knows it and therefore will not needlessly trigger it's player-base by changing crafted items into randomly determined or common rarity ones (even tho, we can't say anything for sure).

[toxic echo]

hey Raion, dont you think that, if they're making multiple versions, the items we already have should be the ones on the store front the day p15 releases?

i mean, factoring in randomness, most likely the storefront one will be of a decent roll. Unless they want to turn every weapon in the store into its own gacha, or let us pick what we want on the weapon.

it'd be just making what we got now on par with what they'll be selling in p15 for the exact same price

[restive silo]

If they do random stats/rolls for weapons I imagine the store would do it like the MK1s in Warframe

You can by a shitty version with Dracs, and a high quality version with Arcs

[hearty sparrow]

it better not be just lower and higher numbers of the same stats

that's just boring

[warm surge]

I think people that bought gear should get some rare skin to shut them up and thats it

[restive silo]

👀

[night sparrow]

Hah, not a chance, I can't even begin to imagine the uproar that would cause.

[warm surge]

What wouldnt cause an uproar? That the one time payment makes the player op for the rest of the game? Lmfao

[night sparrow]

Since we're still on this subject, I have to ask, where did some of you guys get this expectation that just because you bought a piece of gear with real money then that item should never go through drastic changes? It's honestly the first time I've ever seen this opinion in any game.

[warm surge]

Same

[night sparrow]

It's downright absurd to expect gear to never change just because you chose to skip the grind for it.

[warm surge]

The company was clear that everything might change, and that buying shit is just for supporting the game

You get a little something for ur donation

[night sparrow]

And let me be clear, you didn't buy a weapon, you skipped the grind for it.

The fact that said gear can be obtained ingame means you didn't buy the gear, you bought a shortcut to obtaining it.

[warm surge]

A shortcut on a game with 50hrs of content in total..

[hearty sparrow]

nope, using currency to buy a weapon is just that, which as ive said before, is protected by the the consumer protection law

[night sparrow]

That's another point I wanted to make, this game barely has any story in it's current state, if you can't be bothered to grind for the loot, what are you even doing in the game? You can only chase so many animals before you get tired or it.

[warm surge]

This is the first time ive heard it.
Ive seen wow expansion upon expansion - tougher shit appears and the weapons ppl bought become weaker

Same with skins in smth like league of legends, they were for money only earlier, now u can get them free, plus a lot of them got changwd

Honestly i think these are mostly some kids pissed abt their lunch money

[night sparrow]

I don't recall wow selling actual gear in the store but the league skins point is a good one, over the years they have reworked champions and some skins look nothing like they did before, people were unhappy with it too, guess what RIOT did? Nothing, they're under no obligation to keep the digital good identical to how it was when we purchased it.

[warm surge]

Or war*ame players

[hearty sparrow]

what exactly are you refuting here?

i've stated the name of the law just look it up to understand what im trying to say

[hearty sparrow]

??

[warm surge]

They can change whatever they want, you bought stuff to support the game. If you bought stuff for the exact stuff it is - its on u

[hearty sparrow]

they can't change whatever they want without following certain laws

thats the point

[toxic echo]

that was about the founders pack, not the arcs

[night sparrow]

Where were all these complaints when they changed the virtue system and obliterated many builds?

[toxic echo]

also, why are you so sad quikk?

[hearty sparrow]

so many feedback posts were made

just search them up, write "prism" or "build diversity"

[toxic echo]

they're here, just look at how many posts are there talking about it

[hearty sparrow]

the devs said absolutely nothing about that, they swept it under the rug

and i even pointed that out

[night sparrow]

Yea but the feedback was on the weapons, not on lost monetary value.

[warm surge]

Arcs u use for inv slots etc, skipping the grind on gear is your fault and ur fault only.
You can go into warf*ame now and buy plat and get scammed out of it, or buy the shittest weapons there

[night sparrow]

All I see here is complaints that we've wasted our arcs if the gear we have right now isn't immediately upgraded to ancient tier.

[hearty sparrow]

what? im talking about this Where were all these complaints when they changed the virtue system and obliterated many builds?

[toxic echo]

because the item itself is essentially the same, just that the overarchin system doesn't allow for certain combinations anymore

[hearty sparrow]

no stats changed on the items themselves

[toxic echo]

this post is solely worrying about them making all items we have now worse by default to sell the same thing again in a better state

[warm surge]

You can complain about it, but acting like something is TAKEN AWAY from you is wild

[toxic echo]

but if i do so in warframe that's an informed decision on what im getting

[hearty sparrow]

im pointing out the controversies here, never did i act like something was taken away from me

[night sparrow]

And the items right now would likely still be the same, it's just that weaker/stronger versions of them will be added.

[hearty sparrow]

as this thread is for P15, nothing was taken away

[night sparrow]

Or are we to say that Lex Primes is a no-no because someone bought the normal Lex with plat before it was added?

[hearty sparrow]

is that what the tiers will be

[night sparrow]

There are too many ways to interpret this upcoming system that can leave all the complaints moot.

[hearty sparrow]

a prime version? cause i dont so

[toxic echo]

if i bought something in p13 prior to the devstream it would also have been an informed decision, then they announced something that in OP's eyes could lead to that informed decision being disrespected

[night sparrow]

I used that as an example.

[night sparrow]

Umm, your informed decision of the past has no bearing on the future unfortunately.

[hearty sparrow]

honestly idk why they decided to give, yet again vague information about content 2 preludes away
This is exactly like trying to explain the virtue system to us before the update, leaving people opening threads, speculating and arguing for little reason

instead of addressing issues about existing content that people make feedback about, they talk about stuff thats barely has bones

[night sparrow]

You can gather all the information you want before buying something, there's no guarantee that purchase will maintain it's value 1 month from now.

[toxic echo]

think with me:
you bought something p13 for 250 arcs
they announce this
p15 drops and that something is classified as of Standard variant
p15 also updates the store, having the exact same item, still priced at 250, of the Ancients variety

i dont know about you, i would not feel good about it

[night sparrow]

Hell look at Highguard and other releases that died within weeks of releasing.

[hearty sparrow]

again, a percentage of guarantee is protected by the law, otherwise it starts bordering deceptive behavior

[night sparrow]

Cool assumptions but that's all they are, assumptions. For all we know, the store could have all gear removed from it when P15 hits.

Honestly it would make sense with the system they're going for.

[hearty sparrow]

and people were refunded for purchasing currency from the shop

what's your point here?

[night sparrow]

My point was that no purchase is guaranteed value.

[toxic echo]

lex introduced in 2012
lex prime introduced in 2014

i'd say that's enough time

[night sparrow]

You want a better example? Ashes of Creation, thousands in founder packs anc early access, down the drain, no refunds beyond the guys that got it on steam.

[hearty sparrow]

so we should strive to prevent that sort of thing from happening again right?

learn from other people's mistakes so they don't happen again

[night sparrow]

Sure, but the problem is here you're not getting your item taken away, it's getting changed.

[toxic echo]

but that's what this post is at a baseline:
assuming the worst and voicing their concerns about it, which are valid
you guys could be arguing about how their assumptions are wrong but instead yall keep choosing to go with the argument of "that's on you bro"

[night sparrow]

They can chalk it up to reworked system and balance changes and we can complain all we want but we're not owed refunds. Would be cool if they did, I don't care much honestly, but I'm not expecting it.

[toxic echo]

completely agree with you on this, but doubt it will ever happen as that's one of the core elements of DE's business model

[hearty sparrow]

yeah it's different but the idea is the same, there has to be a certain degree of guarantee

[toxic echo]

widely* considered as a scam btw

[hearty sparrow]

i mean OP has spoke so much about his point here that i think it's a little too much, being concerned is one thing but i think he's too worried

[night sparrow]

From what we know the system extends only to weapons and armor. Slots, talismans and joineries could still be in the shop, alongside whatever else they might add that doesn't come in the standard-noble-ancient format.

[toxic echo]

now that i think about it, they should've just left weapons as is and have "joineries" be the "random stat thingy" they're doing with weapons

cause like, much easier to handle and has a bit of quality of life baked into it

[night sparrow]

The biggest revenue generators in warframe I believe are actually forma and slots, not gear itself.

It's always gonna be the consumables that will bring the bulk of the money, they can likely remove the RNG gear from store without incurring a big loss.

[zinc dew]

Nobody asked that.

[zinc dew]

That is not has been said.
Yes, if you buy something you are entitled to the thing.
The extreme example of this would be you buying a digital good worth thousand dollars and it being deleted the next day.

This is just not how the world works.

[warm surge]

Even virtual goods change their value. U know how many ppl lost money on nfts?

[zinc dew]

Nobody expect gear to stop evolving.
What is expected is a time notice (legally it's one year), I don't even ask it, I don't care.
Just you can't just do whatever with digital goods because they're digital.

[zinc dew]

Of course !
I'm not saying the contrary.
Just that ideally there actually exist a legal framework where the good should be altered.

And it's obvious, you would not be happy if someone just deleted you LOL skins or whatever.

[warm surge]

You were also informed that everything is subject to change

[night sparrow]

But the gear is not getting deleted, and we did get notified ahead of time technically.

[warm surge]

No one is gonna delete ur gear lol

[zinc dew]

This is not legal protection.
I can make you sign a contract that says "you allow me to kill you", if I kill you after that I'll still end in jail.

[zinc dew]

True !

I don't think here there is any problem. Again, I'm not even concerned.

I'm just saying that involving real money was a bad idea.

[warm surge]

Perfectly legal if the game stated everything is subject to change

[night sparrow]

And on the lol skins comparisons, some reworks basically deleted the champions and skins people bought because they became unrecognisable in both looks and gameplay, no refunds were issued because the content is still there, just in another form.

[zinc dew]

Absolutely not.

If I sell you a car and state that the car can be altered, then remove functions of the car you can take me in court.

Again, extreme case for the example.

[zinc dew]

Refund are issued if it's under a year (Europe, again) between the purchase and the alteration.
I litteraly live with someone that got LOL skins refunded...

[warm surge]

If u sell me a black car with a sticker " CAR SUBJECT TO CHANGE " and the car turns pink after raining i cant sue u

[hearty sparrow]

he can, that sticker is vague

disclaimers need to be clear and specific

[night sparrow]

Uuh, I think there can be a legal dispute there because in the example the seller knew ahead of time what the change could be and didn't disclose it.

[zinc dew]

Well it's more complicated than that.
In this case, a judge will need to take the decision.

But usually, precise information must handed over berforehand, at least where I live.

[warm surge]

I think eula has protection against that

[hearty sparrow]

again this falls under consumer protection laws, which ive said for the 3rd time now, take a few minutes to read up on it

[night sparrow]

But we're not talking physical goods here, we're talking digital goods inside another digital good.

[hearty sparrow]

just because a company's own rules say something doesn't mean it's automatically legal, it can still be challenged

[zinc dew]

Eula don't trump over laws.

Again I can make you sign that you're ok with me killing you, it's only valid in the framework of legal actions.
Therefore the EULA can say you're ok with me killing you, I still legally can't (because it will conflict with the law).

[hearty sparrow]

and it can still be wrong

this whole idea that companies have the final say because "they told you so" or "it's in their rules" is not logical

[warm surge]

You can sign a mutual combat agreement and that you take the responsibility for anything that happens to you
And if you die i dont take any blame

[night sparrow]

I'm not disagreeing with your example per say, but if we're making comparisons they need to somewhat equal, pixels on a screen =/= life & death.

[warm surge]

Games have changed paid and bought goods time and time again, its really common

I just feel this is picking at DE for how generous they are

[zinc dew]

Well, in Belgium, no you can't, you can't put me in a dangerous situation even with my consent unless very very specific frameworks.

[zinc dew]

True.

[zinc dew]

It's true too.

[warm surge]

I am unsure,
But i know thats how sports work

[toxic echo]

have it your way, i give up

[hearty sparrow]

this is the only alpha game im participating in, so you'll excuse me if im holding the only company i chose to support to a higher standard

[zinc dew]

Well I personally have bought founder, do not regret it, don't care if they take everything back.
I like the game and enjoy my time on it.

[warm surge]

Exactly

You buy the stuff in an alpha game in order to support the game

[sacred shell]

I'm so sick of reiterating over the same points again and again. I'm sick of you trolls showing up in here re-dressing the situation as something it isn't to "make a point" that doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny and then just bailing out on the conversation immediately after only to show up hours later to say the same dang thing all over again.
This is not a weapon, or a singular anything getting a balance tweak. This is not new weapons outclassing old ones. This is not any of the things you all try to compare it to. It just isn't.
It's theoretically either nothing but a simple rename of the rarity system(in which case I have no problem) or a massive overhaul affecting every weapon in game right now, and the balance of the difficulty of the game itself in which case we all have a lot of potential problems.
But either way, it's not what you all keep trying to make it out to be.

I honestly think a lot of you want to see everyone start over from near the beginning in terms of progression for some reason. I don't know why, but that's what I get from your comments.
I don't want to start over. That's it. I want my current gear to remain just as effective after this change as it is before this change. I'm not asking for some huge windfall of things I don't have. I'm not asking for power or weapons I don't have.
I just know a change this big means re-balancing everything else too, so I want and expect my gear to get re-balanced to where it is now, relatively speaking, in the new system.
At a minimum, in my mind, that means making current rare weapons "Ancient" tier. Ideally, I would hope it would mean making them all Ancient tier, just due to our time, resource, and monetary investments, but at the very minimum their star rating needs to carry over to the new rarities.
If you can't agree with that, then that's fine, but just accept I'll never see eye to eye with you.

Going in circles about legalities is only relevant to people living in those jurisdictions.
The monetary cost is only part of my overall argument.
Whatever else ya'll are on about is only fragments of the overall point. Sure, it's tangentially on-topic, but it's not really adding anything of merit to the overall conversation.

[hoary laurel]

thread current status

[sacred shell]

Sure, thanks, I'm sure a spider-man meme will help clear things up. Thanks for saving us with your great wisdom.
But yeah, I'm starting to think everything that can be said, has been said, and it's basically devolved into trolls trying to get cheap kicks by saying outrageous things to get reactions.
Nobody actually thinks we should all start over with standard gear, it's just fun to troll people with the idea right? Surely that's all it is.

[hoary laurel]

Well luckily for those who are serious, it seems this is a well known concern that has been brought up in multiple post, so even without going deep into conversation you can see that this is an issue a lot of users are concerned about.

There have been several suggestions.
Various concerns have been raised.

[sacred shell]

👍 Good to know. I've hardly had time to browse much of the other threads. Every time I have time away from work I end up back in here because I'm the OP in this one, and folks really like to drag us off in circles way the heck off topic.

[next sun]

ngl this page needs to get locked up. the same arguments get pointed again and again xD

[sacred shell]

I wouldn't argue with it at this point. It's kinda exhausting to deal with.

[hoary laurel]

@sacred shell or Mod can lock it

[next sun]

anyone can ping a mod somehow to lock it ?

[sacred shell]

Is that the same as closing the post? It's the only option I see that looks like it might do that. Not super savvy with discord's forum system.

[next sun]

"maybe" it just disables future comments

because this page was the pinnacle of drama these last days xD

[sacred shell]

Well, if it's the center of the storm, I'll deal with it if it means getting attention on the issues I've raised.
I was hoping other posts had taken that mantle, at least partially.

[next sun]

1 thing is certain, DE most likely seen this page and got the attention to it. ( you dont stumble upon feedback pages with over 700 messages everyday)

[sacred shell]

That reinforces the idea that if they're being silent on the interpretation I'm working off of, then it's on purpose.

[next sun]

most likely because of this feedback we will get more concrete info on the next devstream

[sacred shell]

Yeah that almost goes without saying, but like, they did mention some soulframe stuff in today's warframe dev short. I didn't catch 100% of it, but I don't think they alluded to anything covered in here.

Granted they didn't have a lot of time to cover anything like this in depth, but if it was as simple as saying "we're just converting the star rarities over to new names" then how hard could it have been to clear up?

[next sun]

that cant be the case because they said "rng stats" too

[hoary laurel]

Or they can do like they did on prisms and have a soul short

[next sun]

BUT from my own understanding. ancient gear is the one you craft. and the rng ones are the ones that drop fully built with rng stats but less then ancient ( to get the feel of the weapon)

guess time will tell

[sacred shell]

I mean, my initial understanding was that they were effectively creating 3 version of all existing weapons. So like, you could find a 'standard' dewelion, for example.
But apparently some people think it's just a direct conversion of existing rarities, so dewelion would only ever be ancient tier.

That one clarification could make or break this entire thread.

[next sun]

i dont think so. i think what they meant was that all weapons can be dropped fully built with rng stats like (railjack gear from warframe) and you choose if you want to "fix and upgrade it") but the ones you build with fragments are always ancient

hence the whole "grace slots to not use your actual weapon slots"

[sacred shell]

They were also vague on the upgrade system, which could also affect this thread at least a fair bit.
They either mean we just get to keep applying joineries, which count as upgrades, or they mean there's going to be a way to influence the RNG stats, or maybe they mean we can upgrade to higher tiers. No idea, because they didn't elaborate.

[next sun]

yup why imo best to ask a mod to lock this page from future messages and pause the drama till theres more info in the next devstream

[hoary laurel]

DE has said there will be no FOMO.
Also if new weapons are weaker then current weapons{then dont be surprised if they nerf stats on current stuff ingame to match the new stuff).
My logic behind statement is what they plan to do in the upcoming p14 with fey xp, rather than buff everyone with that xp they plan to remove it from ingame. so new players will not be at a disadvantage.

[next sun]

since we are lucky that change coming in P15 and we still got time

[sacred shell]

*Drama Engine Goes BRRRRRRRRRR*

like yeah, I don't like the drama either, but also, attention on issues is important.

[next sun]

700+ messages page is enough attention i think xD