Avex heavy attack is pointless.

[patent hare]

I will try to keep this short but as it stands there is no reason to have a melee attack on a bow. We have sidearms. If melee is that imperative for the situation then players can just swap to their sidearm and stab the enemy. There is no purpose, it doesn't do anything to help the bow, it literally adds nothing.

Now, Avex is an Ode bow, the Ode archers have that explosive shot. Just give Avex that for its heavy if we want it to be unique because at least that does something useful.

If the bow NEEDS to keep melee then here are a couple of melee options:

Option 1: the arrow stab puts a bleed DoT on the target. Bleeding targets take more damage from your shots.

Option 2: the bow itself in swing in a wide arc knocking back and slowing all targets hit.

Inb4 "Oh but it is unique!"
Unique doesn't mean good, it doesn't mean helpful, it doesn't mean it has a place.
We can have unique and good at the same time, it doesn't need to be one or the other. We need to remember that sacrificing Arrow Hail needs to have a trade-off that adds something to the bow overall, not takes away from it.

So yes, Avex is a cool looking bow, needs a hefty split of virtues to use, and its heavy attack is utter trash. Please replace the heavy with something that is functional and useful.

Edited to add melee centric options.

[loud oasis]

+1

[proven token]

+1 I 100% agree the heavy attack is very underwhelming.

[visual egret]

+1

[open wyvern]

+1

[steel sierra]

+1 not to mention your better of shooting pointblank anyway lol 😄 aswel as the arrow is backwards so your stabbing with the back end and shooting it backwards also 😄

[brittle adder]

too slow relative to the finishers

am ok melee, if effective,

the bow does well in feel to its lore
Clicking cranks spin with the power of planets. 🤘
Sinecure hunters boast of Avex’s charged shot, powerful enough to puncture through a doe to kill the fawn behind her 👍

seems toforgets wielded as dagger

could it keep the spirit of arrow raainv like 3-4 stab?
or abandon melee and lean into Clicking cranks spin with the power of planets/charged shot, powerful enough clicks a gear and a slower windup...like greatsword speed? but rip somethings appart and infinite body punchthru kinda of thing

thematic: the force of a fully drawn string small sonic boom.
stunning? or work like clash? open up to fnisher?.
reward grace.
cant really go ham with it cuz of the long windup

attention drailing thjought: C= +draw speed? 16C=~8% ?30C=~15%?

[fair iris]

+1
Ugh yeah, like why going back to the heavy attack that bows had few preludes ago, it's really underwhelming for a 3 star bow at that

[hardy stone]

It does need work, but would not call it pointless. If they were to make it a much faster bow, considering it is mechanical, but with shorter range and lower accuracy, and lower damage to compensate for speed, it could be an interesting combo with the heavy melee for close quarter play.

Buff the interaction range on the melee and make it deal decent damage for how slow it is. Make clicking versus holding turn from regular stabs with the arrow turn from quick to thrusting to visualise impact, and damage actually reflecting the two speeds. Now, you end up with 2 weapons in one, a true hybrid.

[orchid knoll]

+1 explosive shot. Just the built in damage to surrounding enemies totem would be cool

[undone aspen]

+1
Hail of Arrow is better on all fronts, and Sidearm can be the melee option if you are going for an archer playstile
I remember when all bows were basically melee weapons, and the feedback was mostly negative, so when they changed them to how they are now it was a huge improvement
Only for now to kind of go back to that version of bows with the Avex
The explosive shot would be a much better alternative for its heavy attack, but maybe they are keeping it for a Bow Rune

[solid frigate]

If they want to keep the melee part in, then it needs to be more rewarding to actually melee instead of shooting.

Here are some suggestions I can think of right now:

1. An attack that leaves the arrow in and bleeds the enemy for damage over time.
2. A simultaneous backstep+attack, keeping distance between you and the enemy while getting an attack in.

[strong stone]

-1, the Melee is unique and interesting, I do think it could do with some improvement but I wouldn't want to see it removed.

[orchid knoll]

It’s not unique at all. We have sidearms that provide the exact same thing but do it better

[frail cypress]

+1 Great looking bow but DE wasted their 1st 3-star bow on one which has a weak, heavy melee attack? I normally stick a joinery on all the new weapons I think I will enjoy using but I'll pass on this bow because of the useless melee attack.

[strong stone]

I disagree, but I'm not debating on it.

[viral quest]

-1
Love the melee bow, even if the second attack is currently bugged.
Hope the Martial Arts rework does come with slottable heavy attacks so people that do enjoy this can use it on all bows.

Also a point the OP did not consider, if admittedly an edge case:
Having a melee attack can free you to use a Magick sidearm and still have a melee option.

[patent hare]

Again, to all the "it is unique!" defense: it doesn't add anything swapping to your sidearm doesn't do now. "It's unique!" Isn't a good argument for it. A square tire is unique, doesn't mean it works, a wrence made out of paper is unique, doesn't mean it is effective, a bathing suit made out of cotton candy is unique, doesn't mean it serves a purpose. We can have unique, but it has to add something.
I don't want to set the standard with DE that "players will take a useless skill as long as it is unique." That is a horrible standard to set.

[still oasis]

Game doesn’t let you play all 3 at once with how the virtue system works unless you want to roleplay as tickle me elmo.

Heavy melee attack on a bow is bad, which gets amplified with how strong rain + torrent is it just makes it look like a silly decision

[patent hare]

You are literally better off using the slow on Arrow Hail and then spaming your magic side arm than using the melee attack. It isn't even close. The melee still isn't effective nor does it serve a purpose in this scenario.

[viral quest]

Ah, right, didn't consider the Virtue requirement.

[viral quest]

As I don't use Arrow Hail, and I do use the melee, it is much more effective for me.

I don't believe only the meta option should be available, not everyone like to play that way.

I don't like Flyblades at all and I struggle to find a way to make them useful, but that is not an argument for removal.

[still oasis]

That’s valid, but not for the first 3 star bow. They should have used the melee for a different one if they really wanted it out.

[viral quest]

🤷‍♂️
As I said, let's hope the Martial Arts rework comes with selectable heavies and everyone can be happy with the option they prefer.

[patent hare]

It isn't that it isn't meta, the melee is actively worse than just swapping to a sidearm.
It gives the bow no AoE.
It does less damage that a light attack on a sidearm.
It has a terrible hitbox.
It does not add anything to bow's playstyle.
It isn't that it isn't meta, and my original suggestion wasn't even a "meta" suggestion. The melee is just bad and adds nothing to the bow.

[viral quest]

I don't really find the hitbox to be that bad.
-# Second attack aside, that is clearly a bug.

[viral quest]

I do have an use case after all:
Using Magick/Flyblades for defense Totems (no need to meet the requirement then), while keeping the melee option.
-# Unless the sidearm totems no longer apply, do they?

[prime frigate]

+100

[patent hare]

That isn't a use. That is force a square peg in a round hole. You can make anything g "work". That doesn't mean it is effective.
If you are using flyblades to remove armor then you need to be close. If you are one you should just use a melee primary since melee primaries have better damage and light and heavy melee attacks. If you want range then you can just throw the flyblades.
Using the bow melee in this situation is actively worse than just using a one star melee weapon.

[viral quest]

Except I'm not doing any of those things, and I'm using the bow melee.

Should and will is not the same thing.

You keep arguing about what is most effective, but that does not matter to me if I don't have fun playing it.

[orchid knoll]

💯

[patent hare]

I am not even arguing about most effective, that is what you are missing. I am stating that it does not do anything that swapping to a melee sidearm doesn't. It does not add anything to bow, it only takes away from bow.
You can use it all you want but at the end of the day the fact still stands that the melee is less useful than just swapping to your sidearm, and you lose utility not having a better heavy attack.

[viral quest]

You are contradicting yourself.

[patent hare]

Nope, I am not. You are arguing from an aesthetic position and not from a mechanics position and that is fine. I have said my piece, you have failed to hear it or consider it, so me continuing to respond to you won't add anything.

[orchid knoll]

💯 i don’t think this bow should have arrow hail, but it should also not have a heavy melee. Give it something unique that makes sense for a bow. Explosive shot was a great suggestion. And the heavy attack should do significantly more damage than a non charged light attack

[viral quest]

I did not fail to consider it, I fail to find it convincing.

The statement:

I am not even arguing about most effective

The contradictions:

the melee is less useful than just swapping to your sidearm

you lose utility not having a better heavy attack

[patent hare]

Exactly! It doesn't need arrow hail, just something that adds to bow's playstyle
The explosive shot, a netting shot, mine you plant, a fan or arrows, etc. There are so many better options.

[viral quest]

I do like those options as well, let's hope those get implemented as well.

[patent hare]

No "useful" and "most effective" are not, in fact, the same thing.
No contradiction in anything I said.
Useful can be anything that serves a purpose, while most effective is the number one option for a specific purpose.

[viral quest]

If you keep eliminating options because they are less useful, you will remain with the most effective as the only one.

[elfin pivot]

Most people don't eliminate everything but the best, they eliminate everything below a threshold of what feels good to play for them. That threshold is obviously individual, but it is still a factor to consider.

[viral quest]

Fair, in that prospective melee bows sits above that threshold in my opinion.

[elfin pivot]

Which is a fine opinion to have. I can't say much because mine hasn't finished building, although I don't anticipate myself using it a lot, but I will certainly try it out to see if maybe I like it after all.

[patent hare]

And that is fine to have that opinion. I am asking for an argument to why bows should have melee. What does bow melee do that swapping to a sidearm doesn't? What does bow melee add to the bow gameplay loop? If we can answer those questions then we might have something. If there is a way to modify it to where it adds something to the bow playstyle then cool. Right now? It doesn't.
If stabbing the enemy with an arrow gave them a bleed DoT and if shooting bleeding targets caused them to take more damage from your shots? Then yeah, it may serve a purpose to enforce a in-and-out melee ranged rotation that could be super effective on single targets.
If it was a wide sweeping attack with the bow itself that knocked enemies back and slowed them? Then yeah, that adds nice utility to the bow.
But right now? It doesn't add enough to warrant it's usage over just swapping to a melee sidearm.

[viral quest]

You argue that it needs to be more useful.
I find stabbing Sinecure that get too close when I'm aiming at someone far useful enough.

We have made our argument, and neither of our positions have managed to convince the other, is there a reason to continue?

[patent hare]

Apparently not. I even gave melee centric suggestions to try and work with the idea and make it function better with the bow gameplay loop. If that isn't helping then I guess we have said what we needed to.

[viral quest]

👍

[patent hare]

Edited the original post to add melee centric options.

[harsh surge]

First thing i said when i saw the reveal was why? There is no point in using melee attack with a bow when u have secondary weapon that is melee.

[patent hare]

I am just as confused as you are bro.

[orchid knoll]

💯 my theory is they were being “frugal” and simply decided to refresh the old bow melee that was removed previously. Because it was easier than designing a truly new, unique and on-theme bow heavy.

[reef scaffold]

+1

[silk phoenix]

+1.

It doesnt even do good damage or like, insane stagger.

It makes the bow very disappointing for me unfortunately.

I don't see why they couldn't have added the melee attack as a separate thing for all bows.

You also straight up miss out on the other core features/combos to bow gameplay by not having the arrow hail

[proven token]

What they could have done is a bow that transforms into a melee weapon when the heavy attack is used once turning into a melee weapon like say a bo staff mode and then use it again to turn it back to bow mode and whenever you do the heavy attack when it transforms into the bo staff it does like a heavy slam on the enemy knocking them to the ground. And when it turns back into the bow with another heavy attack it fire a ranged explosive voltaic attack, like what the ode archers fire for their heavy attack.

[patent hare]

Yeah, it baffles me how this made it through the initial pass. Again, if it did something that added to bows and that wasn't solved by just swapping to a melee sidearm then cool. Right now it just doesn't do anything and takes away from the weapon.

[craggy sable]

"Now, Avex is an Ode bow, the Ode archers have that explosive shot. Just give Avex that for its heavy if we want it to be unique because at least that does something useful."

That is lowkey genius, probably need to change these archers to use the avex as well instead of the blitzel tho.

[crystal orchid]

A shower thought i had is that melee weapons get temporary regainable health when damaged and bows dont. if this bow has melee attacks it should have regainable health that is healable by using the heavy melee. this would incentivize allowing enemies into melee range as otherwise ranged builds struggle with getting hit.

[patent hare]

Yeah but right now of they get into melee you can swap to a melee sidearm and benefit from the melee regenerable grey health.
The bow's melee needs to do more or else it is hard to appropriate not swapping to your melee sidearm.

[crystal orchid]

It's not the issue if they get into melee. The scenario is as such: imagine you are fighting a ranged fight and get hit. Currently it chips your health with no temp hp. I say avex should behave like melee and give regainable temp hp that is regeneratable with heavy attack. Then you can be more agressive in close range with this bow since you can potentially take a hit and recover, and not get a permanent chip dmg

Swapping to sidearm is too late to regenerate if you are already hit

This also synergizes with the punchthrough as repositioning to hit multiple targets often has you vulnerable to hits

[patent hare]

That could be a fine addition but I do think the melee would still need a little bit more to it. We're giving up AoE for the melee so it needs to feel worth that.

[crystal orchid]

of course the melee would need to feel good to use, but it would make it have a use case that isnt just oops someone is close to me, better stab em

[patent hare]

I think if we also add the melee marking targets so they take more damage from the bow shots then that would help as it adds to the bow rotation as well.

[rich meadow]

+1

[rigid knot]

wouldnt it be better to have the bow mark for melee, so that you start ranged and close the distance to melee finish your opponents. Plus they need to make the melee more lungeable to close distance. That second strike is absolutely not worth it, stabbing at the toes rarely making contact. wasted animation at this point. needs more flurry type striking with the arrow. Also in case people havent noticed the arrow is reversed in graphics you shoot the flight instead of the arrow head first etc. plenty to work on

[fervent gorge]

+1
I tried Avex a couple of levels, the melee is pointless indeed, feels weird.

[elfin pivot]

Having now tried it, it's not terrible. It happens often enough that an enemy closes in with just a sliver of HP left, and this is decent to finish them off when switching for one attack isn't worth it. That said, it still feels very lackluster, especially compared to what it replaces. I get the idea of making the Courage bow more melee focused, but at the very least I'd use the effect of arrows sticking in enemies and exploding when hit with a charged shot that they already have and apply a larger version of that to the melee.

[alpine sky]

+1 It’s way way weak, heavy attacks are already weak but this one is extra bad

[final swan]

honestly i dont think it is that much of an issue avex seems more like a heavy bow then a normal bow and it is good like its good not to spam arrow hail all the time

[patent hare]

Again, not asking for Arrow Hail. What I am asking for is if we are losing it on Avex then we should get something comparable in utility.
If the current heavy on it is worse than a normal melee light attack from your sidearm then that is not an acceptable replacement.

[final swan]

True tbh I get that if I understood wrong before xs

[patent hare]

Yeah, I think we should have different heavy attacks and there should be options, it is always good to have more options. They should just be in the same realm of usefulness. One can me more AoE focused, one more single target focuse, one more utility focused, etc. But if you are giving up X, then Y should feel like a good replacement.

[final swan]

True

Well maybe along the way will get a hotfix that does something like that

[patent hare]

Yeah, and that is why I am up for ideas.
We are here to give feedback and help shape the game. If Avex is to have a melee heavy then cool, let us give feedback and make it better. If more people don't feel like the melee is great? Cool, let's come up with something that feels good.

[bleak hinge]

+1
Actually, I had been looking forward to the bow ... then the huge disappointment ... why did the devs cripple the bow so much? This melee attack is so useless... that's exactly what we have sidearms for! Especially since these are also much more effective than this useless bow heavy attack could ever be. I really hope they revise the bow, otherwise it is unfortunately useless ... compared to the other bows ... with a useful heavy attack.

[limber fog]

+1 in its current state it adds literally nothing to bows kit and barely lands as is, I like the experimental idea but it’s super underwhelming in its implementation that it may as well not added it to the game currently.

It simply needs to do more to warrant replacing hail, I’m expecting it to either get buffed/ reworked or just be a 4 pip MR fodder which would be a waste but ehh, not a huge fan of the split requirements anyway, I’d imagine they can rework it to preform and feel much better down the line.

[ember marsh]

+1 was disappointed after finally building it. We should at least have the ability to switch between heavy melee attack and arrow hail/something else