#Magic Builds don't feel like a "mage" at all

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

vernal palm
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Normally, when I want to play a mage (wizard/sorcerer) in any game, it's because the spells the character can use are powerful but slow to cast and mainly very flashy (who doesn't know that Fireball is what everyone thinks when speaking about mages?), while their use of "weapons" is usually more like a stat-stick or has very low gameplay-impact outside passive stat buffs.

In Soulframe, since Preludes 13, magic builds revolve around the Virtue of Spirit, since it grants a cooldown reduction for the arcanics, and our magic weapons got nerfed to the ground (miss you old Feybalt) so now the weapons are not impactful at all as they should... But the Pacts that could be considered to have flashy/powerful arcanics enough to play like a mage, their flashy and powerful arcanics do not scale with Spirit. Examples:

  • Oscelda, Garren Rood, and Mora's Hand: 1st and 3rd arcanic: scale with Courage and Grace.
  • Ode Tempest 1st arcanic: scales with Courage.

And I understand that we have very few Pacts because this is a pre-alpha version and that maybe in the future we'll get more mage-type Pacts. But right now, with the nerf to magic weapons + our flat armor system, and how damage dealing arcanics don’t scale with Spirit, the reality is that it’s not viable at all (if not impossible) to play as a mage.

last mauve
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Magic weapons do need some work. One idea would be to make the current charge attack be bound to holding left click like bow and then having a unique "spell" for each of the magic weapons on the current heavy. I find that magic weapons are actually very powerful right now if you aim for headshots, especially if you do spirit grace builds. Hopefully they will add more things for the mage to make them feel more mage like.

vernal palm
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Well, since ranged weapons now have "sneak attack" damage multiplier, Grace also gives more headshot damage with any weapon, and all Grace attuned weapons (by default) have a small damage increase for each point in Grace (extra to the virtue attunement).

I think they could give these 2 things to magic weapons:

  1. Arcanic potency multiplier: to make the arcanics more impactful in mage builds.

  2. An increased smite chance" to Spirit attuned weapons (by default) or to the magic weapon totems, so we can cast more arcanics now that our weapons are nerfed.

worthy gyro
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It'd be nice if the "magic" weapons were more than just "weaker bows" like slowing on hit, burning on hit, electrocuting on hit, freezing, bounching (projectiles bounce between enemies), etc. The "heavy attack" should be something flashy like a fire nova, aoe fire ball, etc like the bow "hail of arrows" but you know, other magic stuff. One staff could put mobs to sleep. The sky's the limit!

south olive
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There is definitely a challenge with designing magic weapons and effects because everyone also has access to new Pacts. If any player can use every single ability in any pact, then the magic weapons AND the pacts need to have something a little bit unique (e.g if you have a magic weapon that silences people, will it be distinct from a pact ability that silences people).

neon obsidian
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If Feybalt made magic weapons good, then magic weapons weren’t good, Feybalt was.

Spirit CD reduction affects all ability’s in the pact, which is a bonus beyond the other virtues that only effect 1 power in the pact.

I agree we do need an actual mage pact, and Staffs/Mage weapons need a lot of help overall, but staffs have never been good, and will probably never be good, without any AOE tied to their class. The heavy attack AOE requires way too much to make it line up and work properly, especially when compared to bows.

sage holly
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Mage weapons need widely differing charged attacks. Chain lightnings, water sprouts, fireballs etc. These would both be feasible in terms of development time, and unique enough between every weapon to warrant using it.

earnest tundra
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They should update the way Magic as a weapon type functions before worrying about Magic pacts. At the moment, it's the same as every other weapon where you just spam light attacks or heavy attacks, but you can't block.

Instead, Magic should be about making spells by stringing attacks together to form combos. As an example, a Courage based staff has a light attack with a spell called Fire Ball (shoots a fire ball) and its heavy attack is a spell called Flame Blade (shoots blades of fire).

Doing light and heavy attacks in specific combinations will trigger combined spells specific to the staff with their own cooldowns:

  • Light + Light = Blazing Reign (AoE like Arrow Rain, but buffs allies).
  • Heavy + Heavy = Departed Star (Summons a delayed meteor to drop).
  • Light + Heavy = Supple Harvest (AoE Heal)

This would make playing magic feel different and give their weapons a distinguished identity. It becomes inherently more strategic by being given more options, playing into the wizard fantasy.

keen oracle
unborn knoll
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yeah a mage should have abilties outside of the 3 repetitive pact abilities

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yawn

sacred atlas
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A "simple" enhancement would be to somehow bolt on a teleport spell that doesn't count as "movement". We get enhancements that revolve around standing still and maintaining combo, so if they want to stick with that, giving us a magical way to move around a bit during combat that doesn't break our flow would be ideal.

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I like the idea of moving the heavy swings to a charge effect on primary fire, and then doing things with the alt fire. A teleport selector would fit nice here.
Different staves could also have different on-teleport effects, like leaving behind AoEs or setting off an AoE effect on arrival.

earnest tundra
keen oracle
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yee, tbh i don't think magick should be able to parry melee attacks.
blocking? sure, you get knocked over after blocking like 3-5 hits so you can do it but it's not some crazy saviour of the day.

warm geyser
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Even if they don't do unique heavy attacks, they could have more runes unique runes specific to magic weapons that alter the way it works. Maybe you shoot a wave attack or lob explosive magical grenades with attacks. I have been really enjoying the Archstorm rune on my magic weapons.

stray hemlock
pale hazel
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The fact that secondary weapons feel pretty much obsolete for mages gameplay wise is quite a downer imho. There currently is mostly no reason to switch from your primary mage weapon to the secondary as the attack pattern feels the same, it's all just ranged and secondaries are always lacking in damage compared to the primary weapons.

I think it would be nice if primaries would be for damage and secondaries for functionality. E.g. while you do the damage with your primary, you use secondaries for buffing/debuffing/healing/shielding. So you have a choice of damage element on the primary and a choice of utility on the secondary.

south quarry
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+1 to the general idea, the 3 types of combat should be intrinsically different in playstyle, a shotgun is not a longbow is not a hammer after all

Maybe even 6 types of combat counting secondaries as unique types, I like @pale hazel 's idea of magic secondaries being buff tools

Agreed that while using a magic weapon I don't feel like I am engaging with a different playstyle than my friend who is using a bow next to me, we're both doing basically identical gameplay

This also wraps into a growing problem with the Mastery system, why try a new weapon if I know that it's just going to be the same gameplay as the 20 other weapons I've already used? Unless it's a gear treadmill for stats (ew) or I'm a completionist I'd just stick to the one I already have. A weapon needs to offer something that the other weapons don't, besides stats.

sacred atlas
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But yeah, basically agree with you. No real point in getting all swords and leveling them, outside of the gear treadmill for stats, because they're all just the same weapon copy/pasted again and again.

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The only good news on that front is that map and pact completion seems to count for a lot more than weapon mastery does toward envoy rank. So if we get more maps in the future, we should probably prioritize unlocking as many locations as possible early on, and new pacts should absolutely get priority leveling.

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Also we're due for an arts rework at some point.

solar bramble
oblique rover
keen oracle
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How you gonna block tho if you got a spell or something on right click? 👀

oblique rover
keen oracle
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Not mouse and kb specific really.
Just talking about how you have the ability to block attacks even with magick weapons thas all

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Default for heavy attacks atm on mnkb is middle click on mouse so

oblique rover
keen oracle
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Ooook

oblique rover
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Yeah sorry for the confusion

keen oracle
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You goood

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Tho one thing about that is how would uncharged and charged heavy attacks be differentiated

oblique rover
keen oracle
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Ya but with the current system it's just a tap needed for an uncharged.
There'd be atleast some sort of a delay with the short hold = uncharged, long hold = charged

slender spruce
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Because there do be reason to throw an uncharged heavy. (being the piercing function while still being faster than a full charge heavy)

oblique rover
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I get that, and while there would be a sligh delay for an unchanged heavy the added utility of a "spell" would help in that regard.
A staff may have a line spell that damages and slows enemies, or one that is an aoe burst, or one that is a wave that pushes enemies away from you.
But I do get what you are saying.

flint shale
dull basalt
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A charge attack to the head actually does some really nice damage, especially out of combat when you are engaging in a fight or when you use an arcanic.

Currently you can get Seathorn to max damage with a 23/20 split build and also get about 37 phys defense with orengall's armor.

I know the problem is still spirit and pacts in general with how they synergize with Spirit, but just wanted to put it out there since it changed my approach to how to play caster in SF.

rancid crater
sage holly
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Tbh the bows ate the breakfast, lunch and dinner of magic weapons. I do agree that they can have some kind of fancy AoE shot, but the current arrow hail simply trumps any other ability in the game.

If magic weapons are given unique AoE charged attacks depending on their elemental, that can make things significantly better. I do not think we’ll ever get complex spell casting systems for weapons alone, it sounds like a nightmare to produce and balance. But varied charged attacks sound like a very decent alternative.

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Off-topic: Also I love how the first suggested search for “arrow hail” on google was “arrow hail Soulframe” Avakot

sacred atlas
dull basalt
sacred atlas
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They shifted several things in this update to magic damage, and Mockery armor both gives a higher total and more balanced numbers across the board for a split grace/spirit build.

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But yeah, if you want more phys armor, then that's valid.

sage holly
# sacred atlas They shifted several things in this update to magic damage, and Mockery armor bo...

The only time I genuinely risk dying in Cogah is getting caught by a melee physical attack that I didn’t see coming. For example, a single hit from the generic whatchacallem knights (little versions of the Knell Knight) can oneshot a grace/spirit player in the Mockery armor. And they did. There are probably magical attacks that can do the same to a full courage Arbearer set wearing envoy, but the Mockery set doesn’t even have the lowest physical defenses, that’s the point. It’s pretty balanced across all 3 stats.

Anyway, I don’t think the discussion of armor is anything but a thought experiment until we see how they change the armor system in the future versions. I am, for one, excited, and 99% certain it will make almost all weapons viable. Damage types still have a ton of untapped potential in this game.

dull basalt
# sage holly The only time I genuinely risk dying in Cogah is getting caught by a melee physi...

I agree with the thought experiment part. Either way though, it's still a matter of preferences.

Something I think would be a good addition for magick weapons is to introduce more damage types. Saw someone else post a suggestions of making the charge attack work more like bows and let what is the charge right now actually be a more unique attack to the weapon.

I personally use uncharged heavies quite often but I still think thats a good suggestion

sage holly
sacred atlas
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Alt idea on the magic casting front:
What if we replaced the kick button with a spell of some kind? Ranged weapons are rarely close enough to kick. Why not put an effect there?

gritty summit
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can we make that an option? like if I prefer to kick I wanna kick, but if YOU prefer an effect or spell u can do that? so BOTH? just saying

sick vessel
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+1

One idea I can definitely support for the lack of sidearm identity is to have some sidearms more utility focused. At the moment, there's little functional difference between magick gauntlets and magick staves but it would be fun if we had a sidearm (or main) weapon focused on passive or coordinated attacks such as the flyblades.

Could likewise look like tomes or some sort of floating "totem" (for lack of a better term) that channels magicks.

south olive
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If they are considering different archetypes I was hoping that weapons like Odiac can also be built for hand to hand melee, but with whatever arcanaic or elemental damage they use.

stray raft
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the heavy attack has utility also with the slow totem, but i wish it stacked faster since the attack speed is so low

sacred atlas
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Could also do combo keys. Magic weapons don't use block+heavy to throw like other weapons, so something could go there.

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They could also add something like block+kick on shields for a shieldbash move, which would be cool. Could have something bound to that as well for other weapons like magic weapons. There's a lot of options here really.

stray raft
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we already have shield bash on block+light in game

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but special long cast time aoe spell would be cool on throw with magic

sacred atlas
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...seriously? now I need to try that. Is that only shields that get that move?
-# I guess it would make the most sense

stray raft
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idk what stagger values are on it but it is underpowered a bit. like not worth using most of the time. should bonk their skull in

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but having different staves have different casts would be very cool

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like maybe have the erstroot summon spiders

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and seathorn send a knockback wave

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(like a sea wave)

sacred atlas
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And yeah, only shields do that.

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Non-shield weapons need a move that's bound to the same input I think. Having unique keybinds for certain subsets of weapons is going to get confusing fast.

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Magic weapons really have the fewest attacks then. They have a 3-shot combo and a wind-up heavy, and a basic weak-AF shield, and that's basically it.

stray raft
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although i just realized that block heavy is also aim heavy and assigning a cast to it would disable the ability to make heavy headshots

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which currently is the way to kill agari

sacred atlas
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If they move current heavies to a charge-up light attack like bows have, and add a unique heavy, then it's not a problem to put guard+heavy as another move.

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If anything, magic weapons should be the most flexible, not the least flexible.

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I'm also OK with us giving up headshot and sneak bonuses on specifically magic weapons so long as we get other damage multipliers like various DoTs from fire or poison. So if they wanted to go that route, it could be awesome.

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It kinda ruins the point of having auto-aim and homing attacks if the way to use them is to override those effects and make headshots anyway.

stray raft
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the ability to aim should be a thing, especially when you want to make a wide punchthrough shot on a mass of enemies. however i agree that making auto aim be worse is frustrating

sacred atlas
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So really, IMO, they need to ether give up on auto-aim and homing and let us get headshots the hard way like bows, which invalidates this problem, or they need to remove the incentive to make headshots and replace it with something else.

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Yeah, I think they could just remove auto-aim on heavies outright, since they're usually wider area of effect moves anyway.

stray raft
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if they add a reticle when heavy casting like with bow charged shots then it could work

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and free up a binding for casts

sacred atlas
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At any rate, I would rather magic weapons be the most flexible weapon class rather than the least flexible as they are now. So I hope DE is reading this. lol

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Grace/bows/daggers should be big spikey damage under conditions like sneak attacks and headshots. I'm cool with that. Courage/shields/swords/spears should be warrior class constant lower damage and a lot of good tanking and aggro options. That's also freaking cool.
Magic should be the flexible wizard class with utility out the wazoo.

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fixing some kind of misty-step-like movement ability directly into the caster weapons would be awesome, but it seems like we also need at least one good AoE option like bows have for some lingering effect in an area options.

stray raft
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i kinda want to workshop casts for all of the different staves/gloves we have as it is an interesting concept. the fire gloves can cast a spiral fire tornado pillar at the targeted location (very anime), odiac could cast chain lightning stun. gwelyn or whatever its name could heal allies in a pulse and give a small shield for one or two hits. erstroot summoning spider minions like the wazzard does would fit the theme. and seathorn wave is not the best idea but its what i got rn

desert lake
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When the magick weapons were introduced, DE stated they were intended to be a more casual weapon playstyle. Making the heavy attacks more varied would be a good way to give tool options in the equip menu, such as maybe a charged up beam or maybe letting you lay down an AoE trap

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That way, the basic attack spam is still a very casual playstyle, and then the heavy is a tool piece that you can swap by changing your equipped staff.

sacred atlas
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I'm so weak with magic weapons rn that I wouldn't call it casual. it's basically melee I start at midrange. lol

desert lake
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For example, Odiac could lay down shock traps with the heavy that stun enemies allowing you to stand still and build stacks of the primary fire

sacred atlas
desert lake
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It would also encourage equipping two Magick weapons

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Because then you have 2 heavy attack tools

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Whereas right now it feels pointless to equip two of what are basically the same weapon

sacred atlas
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But I really do think if we're going to be encouraged to stand still, we need a teleport or some kind of movement-on-a-cooldown option that allows us to get out of the way without breaking our buff for standing still and casting.

stray raft
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having your neutral dodge be a blink backwards would be cool

desert lake
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Perhaps that could be a Tier 4 weapon's heavy cast, where the heavy hits you TP to without losing your stacks

sacred atlas
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Yeah having different utility options on secondary magic weapons also helps the multiclassers get some utility for carrying a magic alt.

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There's those ode casters that sling heals at allies and themselves. Would be an awesome option.

desert lake
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It is 100% difficult right now to stand still and build stacks, but imo that's not necessarily a bad thing because if the heavies become more utility, it could be worth taking utilities that prevent you from needing to move as much

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Ooh, yes, a healing heavy attack would be awesome

sacred atlas
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Yeah, could also have more options like Ice effects that slow incoming enemies to allow more casting from a static position.

desert lake
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Even something like the Basker's Wrest heavy laying down a fire zone that ignites enemies that approach, while less defensive, could be a nice way to build synergies (such as with the bonuses to ignited enemies from Mora's Hand)

stray raft
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the thing is due to the nature of the game heavies are required to deal with armored enemies. i think that making block casts specials would fit better with the overall design

desert lake
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Perhaps chaging the firing method of the primary attack to something similar to a bow

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Tap for a quick shot, hold to charge a "heavy" cast

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Then the alt fire is the utility

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That way block cast can remain the "manual target"

sacred atlas
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And then block+altFire could be a universal movement tech 😄

desert lake
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Some players like using the magicks with more control, others like the more casual autolock

stray raft
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there should be a way to bypass the autolock always since it is janky sometimes

desert lake
desert lake
sacred atlas
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Yeah I know, if they gave us something like that, people would start saying magic weapons are required for travel lol

desert lake
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Could, as said, appreciate something like that as a utility tool for a high rarity Magick primary

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But not as just a universal for all Magick weapons tool, it's just too much on one weapon imo

stray raft
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heavy/special casts aside, returning to the topic op brought up, is that spirit doesnt scale pact abilities enough to be the glass cannon caster. i know current virtue scaling is one arcanic per virtue, but maybe like grace has universal sneak attack modifier, spirit will have universal spell amplitude modifier. the meta wouldnt be full spirit still since mages are very squishy, but it would at least feel like casting does something

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pacts still require a thorough look to figure out how to scale and synergize kits correctly because many things arent working right now, but as a general notion spirit should be able to squeeze out more value out of arcanic spam

flint mortar
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What if magic weapons gave you another pact ability to make them feel unique which would still align with keeping them simple but synergies specifically with spirit reducing that cool down. I know this would be a radical change but would really make you feel like a mage. Maybe even keep them less powerful to make up for it.

sacred atlas
eternal ginkgo
boreal elm
frail sluice
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I don't know about you, but to me, the animation/swing speed of the light attacks feels somehow out of sync. I regularly notice that I land 2-3 kicks without them having any effect because part of the strike animation isn't finished. This means that I'm very conscious of every kick, which is extremely annoying. This out-of-sync clicking sometimes leads to stupid extra clicks.

Why not add a left-click-and-hold function? Then the character can swing around as slowly as they want, but you save yourself unnecessary kicks (especially with the staffs).

Standing still passive is also a bit of a rough idea; every smite pull lets you build up the stacks again. You rarely provoke anything with this passive (at least in solo gameplay and without a wolf blocker).

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I won't even get started on the Faybalt issue. It puts me in a bad mood.
My first thought was: maybe they'll now bring the weapons into line bit by bit. Well, we know how that turned out.

tender holly
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+1

vale zodiac
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+1

long moss
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Speaking of magic, I would love me some continuously casting magic items. Something like a summoning circle with auto targeting spirits/ghosts that target enemies within range. It is limited in that you cannot move, but it packs a punch.

elfin field
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Hmmm, I am probably in the minority of this, but I am fine with how magic works in this game. I think the magic weapons need work, but I like that their take on magic isn't spells, sorcery or "mages."

Traditionally, the thought of mages and spells are stationary and slow casting. ... Yup, I already don't like the sound of that in this game.

Magic is more of a damage type in Soulframe, from how I see it. It has auto-lock on if you spec into it and no benefits from parrying. It does benefit from spectre strikes, but imo, this should be buffed more given the lack of benefit from parrying (and probably from the lack of HP a spirit build would have, I'm not keen in asking for parry benefits).

I would like to see more innate status added to the magic/arcane tree. Slows, poisons, armor stripping, damage bypass, piercing. We already get benefits from standing still, if you put those slots in, but you really only get to benefit from that if you're in multiplayer or make use of Orengall's packhunter.

I'd also not mind seeing better multi-hit with magic. Most bows have arrow hail, but I wouldn't mind a charged heavy with magic not only pierce, but perhaps add additional attacks with how long you can/ are willing to hold the attack. With a cap, of course.

I very much don't want to see yet another iteration of the classical elements.

elfin field
# stray raft pacts still require a thorough look to figure out how to scale and synergize kit...

I can't speak for all pacts of course, but at least Orengall still scales well with spirit. Forgot the threshold, but yeah, hitting at least 38 spirit, I get 4 wolves for packhunter. They're all tanky and do a lot of damage. Thanks to the soulbound passive, they get further buffed. Haven't gotten this seathorn to rank 30 yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't just a bit shy of 200 in a glass cannon build.

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I would ask DE to swap the positions of Scry and Smitten on the magic tree, though.

sacred atlas
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If you rank all of the magic weapons, you can just fill out the whole tree with some points left over.

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By the time they get around to swapping anything, they might as well rework the weapon arts system so it's not just entirely irreilvant past ~7 weapons in a class.