#About Buildcrafting & Virtues

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molten zenith
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Been seeing a lot of tension recently around the Virtue system and Prisms, and i'm here to share my thoughts..Restrictions are not about reducing buildcrafting, it's about making choices matter.

Firstly i get why people are frustrated, it always feels bad when a player feels like they are losing options. But i’d argue this system has more depth to it than it might seem. The system is a good route for a world of multiple metas instead of one Meta, and hear me out here. If you are available to dump anything into any stat you want, it’s easy not to feel the downsides. But with the way prims now are introduced you WILL feel those downsides more, but that’s not a bad thing imo.

Let’s take the example I did read about, you want to use the Marrow’s Bane specifically, which is the highest courage weapon in the game. Meaning you’ll do a ton of normal weapon damage, trade off is that the prisms aren’t gonna let you get more stats into either Spirit or Grace for using this. This is the system asking you what you want to be good at. There’s a clear downside to the build, raw power for less ability uptime and lethality. So you’ll have to think properly if this is the way you want to build.

Or you can instead use both Courage and Spirit you might have to opt out for a slightly weaker sword meaning you’ll lose on weapon damage. But in turn you’ll gain that power in other places. Build crafting should be all about give and take, now I would be with you if we could make weapons/armor even more interesting by having perks (or like some weapons have different animations).

I understand that having full freedom maybe fulfills the power fantasy for the player, but it’s more likely to end up in one solved meta anyways. With restrictions we might see more variety, and/or that players will team up more to fulfill the gaps they can’t alone.

Would love to chat with any of you, i know this might be a hot take but i love these discussions.

prism.png
regal snow
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The best courage/spirit weapon is the Gathannan, it natively scales with both. Using the Knight o'Paladine Prism, you cannot use it, because your courage isn't high enough. The numbers are badly thought out right now, even if you don't dislike the principle of the system.

molten zenith
magic sparrow
rough kernel
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The numbers are badly thought out, and the faction grind for access to build functionality is frankly a punishment. Want to access a weapons full functionality or dmg potential? Hope you grinded factions to get that high tier split prism

molten zenith
rough kernel
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That would smooth having to go throw yourself into the horrendous faction grinds just to access weapon functionality for a variety of weapons

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I have all weapons except P13, all armor pacts etc. What's the point in theory or build crafting if I can't access 2/3rds of somethings dmg potential because I haven't gone to pick up a prism that should be available from the start so you can even access the features you're supposed to have at the start which is the ability to effectively use a weapon

molten zenith
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I'll answer to the best of my ability, but i dont get why we bringing up the prisms and how to get them, as i didnt mention that ^^'

rough kernel
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You didn't, no. But they're tied into the virtue requirements intrinsically. I'm not trying to be rude, I just simply want to be able to use the weapons I spent so long leveling.. I want to have access to the content that I grinded for. Having that taken away because of stat requirements begs the issue, how do you fill those stat requirements to use the equipment? Hence the virtue inclusion.

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My gripe is the systems feel messy, poorly thought out and they cripple each other rather than synergize. The system we had before sucked because of the courage meta. This system sucks because it gates you from even trying new tools effectively unless you engage with the extremely unfun faction content. I've leveled all factions to max. They aren't fun. They aren't engaging. They aren't rewarding. They're time sinks and you can feel it while playing

molten zenith
# rough kernel My gripe is the systems feel messy, poorly thought out and they cripple each oth...

Nono your not rude. I'd say its a fair point with the prisms and how to get them, and i completely agree with that part. Locking prisms behind faction level 4 is ridiculously. I'm focused more on stat identity and tradeoffs, not progression gating.

But i do feel like i have better build versatility now then i did back then, is it perfect? No, not at all. But to me it's a step in the right direction.

left anchor
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+1, before this update it felt like melee was severely underpowered vs range. My wife played the mage pact and I started melee, and at times it felt like we were playing two different games in terms of difficulty.

Balancing ranged and melee combat is hard, because ranged is inherently better than melee. This means that, inevitably, if you can use whatever at the same power level then melee will always be worse since it puts you in more danger. This creates a very difficult problem for game balance, which it feels this update goes toward solving - making you inherently tankier than builds that want to use ranged weapons.

That doesn't mean I disagree with all of the complaints that others mention, but I enjoy having to have meaningful choice in "class", essentially, and not feeling punished for fighting in melee. I also 1000% agree that even basic hybrid prisms should be much easier to get to encourage playing with options.

I can definitely understand how it feels worse if you loved the old system, but I think the general design direction makes the "class" feel more impactful and is better for meaningful variety in metas in the long run.

I do also second faction grind being waaay too much right now, but I think is partially an issue with it being alpha and not a lot of content so they leave it as filler.

molten zenith
rough kernel
# molten zenith Nono your not rude. I'd say its a fair point with the prisms and how to get them...

Completely valid, and I appreciate the clarification. I agree that this is a better step towards the direction of stat identity and choices that matter in builds. I think those aspects are very important, I also feel these systems just needed more time in the oven. More play testing, more something. They just seem and feel so unfriendly to user choice on the tin. Archetypes in games can be fun, but this isn't Dungeons and Drsgons. I want player choice in builds that feels like it expands player identity not archetype identity. So, to sum it up I just hope they keep working on it as we know they will

rough kernel
molten zenith
rough kernel
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Cheers to that, hopeful indeed PrayVakot

upbeat wind
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Overall, I agree with you. I like the prisms and the archetypes they represent, and I think these first nine (not counting Wylds) offer a good spread (setting aside acquiring them). You're correct that downsides and upsides are what makes choice meaningful. I think DE did a good job branching the meta and making each virtue feel like it's worth having, though I have my concerns with Grace, since it feels like the extra damage scaling on Grace weapons directly led to certain weapon types being tied into certain virtues, which is my actual big issue this update:

My pain point with this new system isn't the limitations of choice but (edit: that the choices are so limited they practically don't exist)

Let's say I want to run a full spirit mage/healer build but don't want to use gauntlets and staff at the same time because it feels like having two of the same weapon (same runes+combat arts, similar attack pattern, both ranged) and gives no reason to actually swap weapons. There are other sidearms that scale, at least partially, with spirit. If I use blessed joinery on Virdigris, I can make it scale more with spirit than with grace. But I still can't hit the grace-only virtue requirement. I need to hybridize my build just to have a ritual dagger, which should be fully in theme with an arcane caster archetype. full spirit has no meaningful sidearm choice, just magical gauntlet A or B?

Similarly, there is only one sidearm that is courage and it's 1) founders locked and 2) flyblades, which SHOULD be grace if DE applied their system consistently. Someone who, like your example, put all points into courage to use Marrows Bane isn't just losing out in the ability to have cool down reduction or finisher bonuses, they're losing out in the ability to have a meaningful sidearm choice at all.

if virtue requirements were split like the scalings are, or if players could change the requirement with blessed joinery, we would still have choices to make but we'd be able to make them.

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lil off topic of the prisms and virtues themselves, I suppose, but it's tricky when the systems all tie together

cloud matrix
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I see a lot of people making your point OP that the prism system is better because it forces trade offs.
But as someone who is happy to have trade offs I still feel like prisms are a mistake.

Prisms take away player agency in choosing the trade offs we make. Players have countless trade offs they would be willing to make but prisms force you into such a limited number of builds.

Other rpgs successfully let people choose their stats and have trade offs without forcing a limited number of stat ratios.

In the long run to satisfy people DE will either have to provide countless prisms or have to reduce stat requirements due to the inflexibility of the prism system.

regal snow
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I still think the stat requirements either need to go completely or to refer to focus grades instead of numbers.

finite mauve
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-1

molten zenith
# cloud matrix I see a lot of people making your point OP that the prism system is better becau...

I agree with you partly, i do wish for more prisms later down the line. But i just don't think the system they did have before had any noticeable tradeoffs, or rather that the tradeoffs weren't sufficent enough to be felt. Espicially considering how dominant Courage was, though it would of been interesting to see a partly reworked system of the three virtues before they opted to Prisms potenially.

But yeah i don't think the goal is to limit builds forever, it's just a step forward trying to make stat identity actually matter.

cloud matrix
# molten zenith I agree with you partly, i do wish for more prisms later down the line. But i ju...

I mean ultimately I you hit the nail on the head for my response.
We could have gotten all these changes to the virtue and armour systems without virtue prisms added in on top.

If people were forgetting to add virtue points then create a notification on level up.

In a system where people assign their own points you can still have restrictions DE just has to play with the numbers a bit more.

But prisms especially those locked behind a grind or tied to currently paid only packs feel like going in the worst of all directions. (I say this even as a paragon owner who has all the available prims.)

Honestly if the game looked like this when i first saw it i would never have joined.

molten zenith
# cloud matrix I mean ultimately I you hit the nail on the head for my response. We could have...

I'll agree that prisms shouldn't be time gated (especially behind faction level 4), not even sure why as paragons we do get prisms i think that's a bit silly. Cause they are either gonna be just a weaker version of already existing, or stronger and better varied. Either way it's bad, but that's a separate issue worth criticizing.

But wheter the old system could've of worked or not is mostly speculation. From personal experiences the tradeoffs in that system felt next to non-existent. Which is why i think the shift towards clearer stat identity is a step in the right direction.

And hey totally fair, expectations is a huge role in how changes feel. And i think that's why there are so many mixed reactions right now. I'm mostly trying to look at it from a systems perspective rather than how it feels to earlier versions.

molten zenith
# upbeat wind Overall, I agree with you. I like the prisms and the archetypes they represent, ...

Off the bat definitely please give us more courage sidearms, it's fair criticism that there is only one purely courage scaling one, which is locked behind a paywall.

But here is how i see it, like you said you'd like to go a Healing/Mage Build (love the choice btw). That is gonna give you a clear build path, you're gonna specialize in support from afar with magical attacks, spells and healings. Downsides are that you're likely to be more susceptible to attacks from enemies and sidearms matter less for that build. To me that's not necessarily a bad thing though, you've picked what you specialize in and you can choose to lean heavily into that, or sacrifice a little bit of magic power for a stronger sidearm and better survivability.

And even if you do pick Druid of Iridis you still do have access to the worst grace scaling sidearms, like Precklies, or Nettle. It's all a give or take. To me sidearms are generally more of a bonus you can use, if your main weapon isn't already strong. Like Marrow's bane doesn't need a sidearm as much, and you can still put Precklies with The Tireless, which makes it so they reduce enemy armor. No damage needed.

And I'm not trying to say sidearms doesn't matter, but their role changes depending on the build.

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**Sidenote: **Adding elemental effects like fire burns over time, water slows, etc. Would be great incentive to wield both staffs and sidearms.

cloud matrix
# molten zenith I'll agree that prisms shouldn't be time gated (especially behind faction level ...

I’ve been looking at it from systems perspective as well which is why this has been so confusing.
My personal opinion from that view echoes your early post in that I think they should have brought in all the current changes without prisms then balanced the overall system around that.

Do I think that would have worked off the bat no I doubt it. But eventually they could get somewhere healthy with it. Without destroying player agency simultaneously.

I think if you look at it from a systems perspective you can see that prisms aren’t necessary for tradeoffs to exist they make it easier for the devs for sure.

But is it worth it for the player who now ends up feeling a lot more frustration. If you look at most rpgs you can see that devs while imposing restrictions have still taken the player agency route.

cursive locust
cursive locust
molten zenith
# cloud matrix I’ve been looking at it from systems perspective as well which is why this has b...

I think we just have different perspectives in design. As i'm not against player agency but i prefer value systems that enforce clearer tradeoffs, cause i believe it creates stronger build identity for the long term. But i can definitely see why someone would prioritize freedom would dislike this system.

At the end of the day i just wanna make sure we give sufficient enough feedback to the developers, to make the current system they have now it's best possible solution. And hey it's still super early in the making of this game, who knows what the future holds. Avakot

molten zenith
cloud matrix
cursive locust
# molten zenith that would honestly be fire

crossbows always requires like double the strength to draw it compared to a normal bow so it would make sense to be courage cuz strength ( and then imma eat my words if they make it grace and as a grace player, i dont think we need another grace range weapon at the moment )

regal snow
cursive locust
regal snow
molten zenith
cloud matrix
# molten zenith I agree, honestly we might just need more depth in other places before we can pr...

Fully with you on that, they still have the pact and weapon arts reworks. Making different damage types impactful (elemental system?) and the ode infamy system. I can also see them adding more items such as rings, boots, earings as well as more prisms plus prisms with special rewards. I hope that they keep in mind the new player experience as well as player agency/ tradeoffs when making these changes.

upbeat wind
# molten zenith **Sidenote: **Adding elemental effects like fire burns over time, water slows, e...

You've made a fair point about technically being able to use Nettle or Precklies, or using any flyblades for smite and armor reduction without caring about damage. And last night, I landed on building a staff with harrowing for AoE and gauntlets with the fire rune for more single target, so there's still some room for the weapons to have different purposes in a full spirit build. (I also have to admit I forgot I was using the Preludes Honor for the flowers, and I totally could reach the grace requirement for Virdigris/Witan if I wasn't intentionally nerfing myself lol)

You are right. My pain point comes down less to the actual virtues/prisms and more to the limited selection of weapons. I really like that most weapons are split scaling now, and I'm not opposed to virtue requirements. I do want a magical vibe for this loadout. I've had fun working on other builds, like a Grace Sirin who has soooo many weapon options and Courage/Spirit hybrid Mora's Hand. It IS very nice to feel like I can split my stats more than in the old system.

The pain point I'm encountering would, at least for me, be resolved if they add magic weapons with different casting styles (one with an AoE around you, one with a channeled beam, etc) and give courage any non-paid sidearm. I do also think your idea of elemental effects would go a long way in making the different weapons feel more distinct.

Overall, I've played around with it more and I think the system is a good base. I would still like there to be some support for swapping the requirement by using blessed joinery to change what the weapon scales with most, but that's largely a reflection of the limited choice in weapons. If there were several types of magic weapons, it would feel less strangling and more like meaningful decisions made in the process of crafting a build. This extends to armor, which I feel is just "make build, put on best numbers you can hit with that build" and not an actual interesting choice.

dense cloud
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I agree with OP, for me making a build now feels like I'm actually having to think things through instead of using whatever has the highest numbers which personally speaking is much more fun. I do think the system as is feels a bit like a rough draft which makes sense for the first iteration, but I see a lot of potential for refinement and additions later on to help with some of the friction points. I also agree with the others pointing out the stat requirements on split scaling items in particular feels too high, I've said the same myself elsewhere.

cyan nest
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Just an across-the-board 20-30% cut on the size of the virtue requirements would get rid of a lot of the pain of this update.

cursive locust
cold briar
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+1 I agree with OP. You can start with your weapon and build around that, or you can start with your virtue playstyle and build around that, or even build around a pact ability. But any choice you make limits you in a really good way.

Want to use a bow? Well you need grace but you have options with hybrids if your level is high enough. Really want the spirit playstyle AND a bow, a hybrid prism and a talisman might be able to do it.

But no you can't use a polearm with zero courage investment and you can't use a bow with zero grace investment.

Any other game (let's use elden ring as an example because its earned its fame) early played are very limited. As you get more equipment and levels you get more freedom. But elden ring has stat requirements for both spells and weapons, and some of the weapon types and items are only available mid to late game. You can't even redo your stats u till late game and its a consumable item.

Soulframe still gives you the freedom to swap prisms at any time (out of combat) so you still have flexibility.

As the game grows, high MR will allow players to reach those minimum virtue requirements easier. Not to mention that +6 talismen are now very important to hitting those requirements.

This is the new system, I feel its best to compare p13 to other games and not compare it to p12, the devs knew what they were doing with these restrictions and the systems before were placeholders.

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Do you not like that elden ring has stat requirements for weapons and spells? Or are you mad you can't change your stats at bonfires for free? Or that some spells and weapons arent available till mid to late game?

A lot of peoples major issues with p13 are just normal video game restrictions for me. Its hilarious

molten zenith
cyan nest
# cold briar Do you not like that elden ring has stat requirements for weapons and spells? Or...

Of course. Because previously, Soulframe gave you freedom. You weren't forced to play with mage weapons if you wanted to focus on Spirit builds and be kind of magey. You could use a magic bow with a ritual dagger while still being an oscelda support mage. This update straight up removed that kind of versatility. If you want to try that, now the only ability you have is a stagger-building ability.

cold briar
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And to be critical of the fresh new system instead of just defending it from doom posters.

Split scaling weapons having 2 virtue requirements would be easier.

But what's to say we dont get a polearm in the future that has a spirit requirement, solving this issue and making a weapon unique.

cyan nest
molten zenith
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But yeah i felt like most people were critizing the system, so i felt the need to protect it. Because i do see alot of good in it.

cold briar
cold briar
# molten zenith But yeah i felt like most people were critizing the system, so i felt the need t...

It absolutely IS good, I dont think they would have givin us a bad system. Its something they have been working on for a super long time with meetings and balance and we the players dont even know most of the road map. They know what the future holds for the game.

We will be seeing several major systems reworks, by the end of the year it will be a very different game, and mages with greatswords will still be possible.

molten zenith
finite mauve
# cold briar Do you not like that elden ring has stat requirements for weapons and spells? Or...

Yet the requirements are really restricted compared to elden ring, if you were going for that comparison, elden ring has more variety of weapns that scale on one end VS another, instead of being entirely based on grip type, aswell as actually having player choice by having you allocate your points beyond what presesntly is at most 2 choices, with one being IMO, not even worthwhile.

Either A: you virtue stack one weapon by equipping a prism, which is really the only thing that gives virtues with how pacts give next to nothing. Or B: you virtue stack for an ability by equipping a prism-... Except I found virtue stacking abilities to be much worse than weapon stacking.

I say that because, I have no reason to go spirit focus osc, I have no reason to go grace focus orengal, I have no reason for ETC. I went courage stacking with OSC. Why did I go courage stacking? Because really the only 'choice' that mattered was weapon (armor sure as suns arse doesn't mean anything because all of them reach around the same defense levels at the end of their virtue allotment)

cold briar
cyan nest
cold briar
# finite mauve Yet the requirements are really restricted compared to elden ring, if you were g...

Makes sense. You have your pact, next you choose your weapon, then the prism for the weapon. Last is armor (armor doesnt matter right now).

Now depending on your weapon choice you might have a couple prisms to choose from. Certainly within that grip type you have some full and some hybrids.

Before if you wanted a polearm, there was only one good option, every grip type literally had a single best option.

Now we have choices depending on what virtues we want.

drifting fern
finite mauve
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I said that you could argue it, however in practice, it is worthless when it comes to virtue points

cold briar
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Also id like to think that a grace bromius would feel different than a courage bromius. Both cool for different reason.

finite mauve
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So, it's perfectly okay for the spiritual healer to be carrying the biggest greatsword, but the greatsword can't be used with a gnarly sword sized 'knife'.

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Okay.

cold briar
# drifting fern Super long? Doubtful. They 1 to 1 copied the benefits given by virtues from a th...

I've seen virtue rework threads since p8 when I started. People have never liked the courage meta and have had been suggesting different options for over a year (possibly longer, im only p8)

You may have seen a new p12 thread that said courage HP, spirit Cooldown, grace finishers. But it definitely wasnt the first time.

Most people actually suggested grace be attack/movement speed. But we have seen many variations being suggested.

light ice
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Again, and I have said this in multiple threads: I am ok with requirements on gear, I am not ok with prisms. We have a limited amount of points to work with and we already have to use said points to work towards the builds we want. We don't need prisms making that task even harder because they do not spread the points well.
It is restrictive and openly hostile towards build crafting.
Also, this new update made it to where each pact ability is only effected by a singular virtue; which, after testing, means one ability feels like it did pre-patch and the other two feel worse.
I think prisms could be used to give unique passive that encourage builds.
Additionally, you have less HP than before the patch, and with testing we don't even know how much Courage actually effects HP because I have two prisms that give me the exact same amount of courage but each gives me a different amount of HP which shouldn't be happening.
Health should be based on a per point spent basis with Courage giving additional health but it is pretty telling when across the board in all builds we have less HP than before.
Currently it is not it chief, at all. If their purpose with this update was to nuke build crafting then they succeeded.

cyan nest
light ice
molten zenith
balmy trench
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I agree with the sentiment and that’s why I’m also broadly in favour of this system, but right now the numbers at the very least are not very well balanced

quartz valley
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The main spirit and grace builds are prone to dying in hard mod.In hard mode, survival is the most important thing.

wind rose
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Based on what others have said in some other threads, it appears we do get HP from all virtues. Spirit is +3/point, grace is +6 and courage is +12 I think.

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So even though two prisms have the same courage, if the grace/spirit balance shifts, your HP will too.

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-# I haven't crunched these numbers myself, so if they're off by a bit, sorry. I just know spirit only gives a little, grace gives more, and courage gives the most.

balmy trench
balmy trench
molten zenith
regal snow
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Grace is amazing on bows, it just needs to be more relevant in melee

lucid tusk
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it seems like there's not much purpose in having strict virtue requirements for weapons when scaling is already a soft virtue requirement; additionally, if the virtues are going to impact other gameplay considerations (defenses, cooldowns, etc), then it makes more sense to me to have flexibility in what you can equip

tame pagoda
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If they wanted to add a gate for weapons that are meant to be more of late game weapons, I think it'd be better for them to copy Warframe with the MR requirements for some weapons

lucid tusk
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🔥

light ice
balmy trench
# light ice You would still have to balance virtues with the points system. What is making t...

While that is true, I think interacting with it through the prism system is more interesting and generally allows for more interesting game design down the line. That’s why I favour loosening the virtue reqs a bit instead. But you are correct that keeping the current virtue reqs and instead getting rid of prisms would also be away of fixing the current problem. I just prefer the prisms

light ice
# balmy trench While that is true, I think interacting with it through the prism system is more...

I think they could be interesting, just not for virtue allocation.
If they instead had virtue requirements and upon meeting those requirements it gave unique passive that shaped builds then that would be cool and actually add something to the game.
Right now? It just makes a system a mess by adding an extra item that is more restrictive and doesn't allow for fine tuning to meet required virtue thresholds.

balmy trench
# light ice I think they could be interesting, just not for virtue allocation. If they inste...

That a cool idea too, and while I do understand why some might find the lack of fine tuning annoying, I personally find it more interesting to find a way to match the requirements through the combination of prism, talisman and skill tree, I think if they change/fix pact skill trees not giving enough virtue points it would be perfectly fine. Again I just don’t find it interesting to meet the requirements if all you need to do is press plus or minus on the virtues, at that point they might as well could auto set them for you according to your gear and then let you set the remaining ones manually.

light ice
swift loom
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Its difficult for the system to have much depth when almost all of the information surrounding it is obfuscated.

I would really like DE to add actual descriptions to everything:

  • How virtues directly impact abilities
  • How many of each virtue is shifted comparing prisims
  • How your virtue points from mastery rank are distributed
  • How weapon scaling with virtues actually work

Leave the exploration and whimsy to the actual world in game. not in the UI.

I can barely get 20 points in 2 virtues at the same time at rank 17 and with a +3 to all talisman

balmy trench
# light ice They are auto setting them for you now... with prisms...

Not the way I meant, you are still choosing the combination of prism and other effects to meet whatever your needs are, which requires trade offs and at least a little bit of thought and with more prisms and talisman and whatever else comes in the future that will effect virtues stats it creates a web of interesting choices one can make to stack virtue points and potential other effects

winter ferry
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Just wanna say that I agree, the new system really makes build choices feel a lot more meaningful. As the base mechanics of combat keep getting polished and new varied weapons and armors are released, I think this system will really begin to shine more and more.

light ice
red verge
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-1000, disagree heavily especially with how the current virtue requirements on weapons operate.

Having all but maybe one of a weapon type have the same virtue requirement feels really bad for build versatility, it means that every polearm, and longsword build for the most part will be in a courage build and that feels really lame because then there will always be a best in slot. But I don't want a best in slot I want to use the weapon that I find cool. My main issue is the virtue requirements of weapons and also the big nerf to joineries.

I think I'd like the current system more if virtue requirements were just flat out removed and if joineries could be used to affect the weapon scaling more as that would vastly improve the current build crafting system which in my humble opinion is just extremely limited as well as being locked behind the most boring grind currently in the game.

lapis shadow
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+1 fully agree with this. I like the choices you have to make