#I am a Founder. This Update Will Lose Me

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

weary crypt
#

Yeah, and also Dark Souls is more of a singleplayer title than anything, Soulframe has the aspect of team play, and many players do want to see how their abilities and kits are influincing their squad's effectiveness.

Sometimes you do want to see how much your ability is healing squad members or how long does it stun enemies for your squad to deal significant damage to them.

#

It made sense for Dark Souls to have a more "organic" look without too many UI's, buff icons, durations, etc. Since the purpose is to immerse you into it's single player world.

While Soulframe also has a similar purpose, it's nature as an MMO should allow for clear and concise information, as cluttery as Warframe's 9000 buff icons can be, they are necessary for players to know what they are buffed with or how long an effect is going to last.

plucky cedar
weary crypt
#

Soulframe shouldn't shy away from this as the number of buffs and effects that could clutter up our screen are quite small in comparison to Warframe, due to it's slower pace and more calm approach on combat it can certaintly allow for these things

#

I would also argue that players would feel more overwhelmed not having enough information of what an ability does or how much value they are getting from a virtue rather than if they where fed the information as soon as they hovered their mouse over the ability description

plucky cedar
#

Even if they wanted limited information, monster hunter still did a lot in UI to tell the player when buffs and such wore off. Either the weapons glowed or your HUD had the necessary information stored away to tell you.

I do think HUD and UI information are essential, but very hard to nail down for a lot of businesses. They either want to give you too much information or they give you too little (IMO, the former problem is my preferred one). Alpha testing should be the perfect time to bring out different types of UI/HUD information to find a balance of what it looks like most players get the best use of (but it would also require a willingness to go back to one that worked the best even if it's not the newest iteration).

olive ledge
#

The broad type requirements/scaling and the prisms are my problem. We had weapons that scales with different attributes inside each weapon type, now we don't. So now I have little incentive to not just spam courage because the weapon types I like all scale with it

pallid terrace
olive vortex
#

devs say its supposed to be an mmo but the funny thing is SF's steam page has the singleplayer and coop tags

#

make of that what you will

olive ledge
#

instanced worlds don't exactly scream MMO to me

errant jetty
#

I mean, from what it feels like they are trying to hybridize MMO and a soulslike

random rune
#

Soulframe is an MMO the same way Warframe is, not all MMO's follow the WOW/FFXIV/etc format

cedar pebble
#

they do..
wdym?

Soulframe1195.jpg
latent ravine
# cedar pebble they do.. wdym?

I think what they mean is a few tweaks to the system, they're suggesting that:

  • Every pact should get 60, not 30
  • Wylds should also share this general 60, similar to how they already work, so no change
  • Wylds should be given something else to differentiate them, like a buff (and then they suggested further down that wyld pacts could give 5 more points, but I'm confused if they're suggesting everything should have 60 because 60 is already max, so Foxx might need to explain that one lol)

Foxx can correct me if I'm wrong but that's how I interpreted their suggestion

plucky cedar
# olive ledge instanced worlds don't exactly scream MMO to me

That all depends entirely on how you define "massively multiplayer online." I define it as a perpetual world where thousands of players can interact, even if this is limited to just chat. I don't bother with splitting hairs of "MMO-lite" or "MMO-like" when they'll have the same structure in the backend anyway.

However, this will split games away from it that do have players interact; games like Monster Hunter clearly aren't MMOs despite them having more and more persistent worlds fairly similarly to how Soulframe does. Key difference is, you're never given the chance to interact with thousands of players at a single time - gathering hall only goes up to, what? 30? Same with those GTA RP servers that are... f-far more popular than I thought. monkaS

Either way, Soulframe and Warframe are just as much MMO to my broad definition as Final Fantasy XIV (everything is instanced) and Black Desert Online (nothing is instanced), yet keep out games that have multiplayer aspects and maybe borrow some MMO themes.

weary crypt
plucky cedar
# cedar pebble they do.. wdym?

Brain is riddled with RE9 stuff right now, but I think this was part of the conversation that had my annoyance with pact points. If I recall my gripe, it was about non-wyld pacts really getting the short end of the stick with the prism system and weapons needing dual virtue requirements.

The suggestion was just giving all pacts 60 points, and from how I read it, splitting wyld and normal versions apart. Not that 120 points would do anything more currently.

Your screenshot of a wyld pact that's been maxed out is exactly why non-wyld pacts are at a disadvantage.

Soulframe0002.jpg
latent ravine
plucky cedar
weary crypt
latent ravine
#

Awesome, thanks both! SootHype

prisma bluff
#

Wylds pacts are stronger and have a slightly higher base virtue already, and already share points with their nonwyld counterparts. And Wyld equipment is NOT supposed to be endgame gear. It's supposed to be a step above starter, and that is exactly what it is.

#

This is because they reflect the pure virtues, I would not expect unique prisms for every Wyld pact.

weary crypt
# prisma bluff Wylds pacts are stronger and have a slightly higher base virtue already, and alr...

If that's the intention of Wylds the it's fundamentally flawed, in Warframe primer are the endgame of a Warrame or weapon, and having better power over it's base counterpart is a crucial aspect of why people go for Primes in that game. Wylds shouldn't be excempt from that rule either, and I think its bogus to not want to have them be a significant increase of power on a pact and the geat it comes with.

Also I feel you are completely skipping by the conversation above where we talk about the clarification of what I meand with Wylds sharing points and the such, without that context you simply are missing the point of my argument.

#

Im not pointing fingers at you or anyone, but I don't get this sentiment or narrative that Wylds shouldn't be significant upgrades in gear in our arsenal. That's the whole point of Wylds, if they where sidegrades then I don't think DE would've bothered giving us early access to them by paying 15 clams for each.

#

Atleast when it comes about Wyld weapons and Armor

#

Maybe Im too Warframe pilled but Prime weapons and gear being an objective upgrade over the base counterpart was not only necessary but also healthy for the game. Weapons have their base variants for early game, and players could then grind for their best version to get them in a more tolerable power level at the point in time they would be able to grind for Primes.

#

I don't see why Soulframe should take that away in favour of just... What? There is no benefit nor a reason for Wylds to not be significant upgrades in comparison to the base counterparts

#

Tell me, why would I want to use Starling if there are many other bows that scale better in damage and have the same grace requirements over it? Why would I want Wyld Oscelda's secondary if we have Odiac and Basker Wrests?

#

Wyld gear wants to be endgame gear so badly yet we are inclined to believe it shouldn't be because... Reasons?

#

If it's a step above starter why do they get this fancy and shiny spectacle of being cool and marketed as the primes from Warframe? If they are supposed to simply be gear we will throw in favour of stronger stuff we get "later" why would we want to farm them when we already have earlier access to gear that is better than it?

#

I just don't see it whenever I tilt my head and squint my eyes hard enough

half narwhal
#

Also, most prime warframes have pretty minor buffs compared to a non-prime, so they're not really a huge jump in power.

#

So this seems fairly equivalent.

weary crypt
# half narwhal There's still an incentive to grind and level both, which is getting the pact ar...

Considering arts will get reworked due to the current issues with the arts system, I don't think that is enough? Unless you mean Pact arts which I still think Wylds being the access to full 60 is still not healthy for the game, specially when if this is going to be like Warframe where it takes 4 years for something to get the Wyld/Prime treatment, I don't think players would be happy having to wait 4 years or even 1 year for their favourite pact to get a Wyld just so they can get access to the 60 points.

60 points should be for all pacts, Wylds just sharing those 60 with their base and offering five or more as additional points to fully max your nodes.

As for the gear argument, I still feel like if they are going to have the same grind as their pacts then they should also have a boost up in power or some feature outside of someone just wanting to collect them all.

weary crypt
half narwhal
#

They have a unique set of perks, the smite gems, but that's about it for power. We don't know how the gear will be earned in game though, it's possible it will be a different source than the Pacts.

#

It's also possible they buff the founders gear after the in game source is added, as right now many players will be starting with founders gear so they may have been made slight upgrades over starting gear to avoid imbalance issues for new players.

weary crypt
#

I think at the end of the day it boils down to advocating for weapons and armor to be unique enough to warrant a reason to be used, outside of say, stuff like starter armour or sets with very easy grinds or very early requirements.

#

Because if everything is just "This has better number than that" I feel we would divulge too dangerously into what made Diablo 4 unbearably bad

ocean dock
#

Ye a lot of things are called placeholders for a reason - like the crafting times we see rn i expect to get increased a ton closer to WF levels, the times are probably low rn just for testing

weary crypt
#

Which is a bloated loot pool of gear and no uniqueness between said gear, just having hundreds upon hundreds of armours or weapons that only provide distinct numerical values

half narwhal
#

Regardless, would agree with making more unique weapons. We have been seeing some progress in that department, but it definitely seems like a backburner thing with only a few experiments right now.

weary crypt
#

I think they did, I personally would say short timers are better because despite understanding the reason why DE gave Warframe 72hr long timers on certain things, Warframes (Specially primes) vary in grind time, and some grinds are more frustrating than others (Looking at you Ash and Equinox) so it feels like a slap on the face to be hit with a 72 hour wait

ocean dock
weary crypt
#

Soulframe has a sweet spot

#

A full day for a pact feels appropiate

#

10-12 hours for a weapon or gear piece also feels reasonable

ocean dock
#

Specifically that i don't see sticking around, they'll probably normalize the crafting times of weps to 24h at least in my guess, cause rarity based crafting times feels weird rn, having some things be 4-9 hours while others are 12-24 in the same category and such

#

Especially while they move things around and change rarities, like when i got Odiac it still had a starting wep crafting time, so it took me a week to get and like 4-9 hours i forget to craft, vs something that took me 10 minutes to get being 12-24 - anyway this is a bit off-topic

weary crypt
#

Specially games with procedually generated stats for randomized weapons

#

(Looking at you Starbound)

prisma bluff
# weary crypt If that's the intention of Wylds the it's fundamentally flawed, in Warframe prim...

even in warframe, a prime doesnt actually offer that much more than the base weapon. And in some cases the prime can actually REMOVE some of the unique features of the weapon (I'm looking at you corinth prime). Most prime warframe only get a 25-50pt bonus to core stats like armor, health, energy, etc., and none have any bonus to str, dur, eff, or range. So yeah, I think the wyld pacts are where they should be.

#

And also, I do feel that the first equipment set that a good 20% of the players are starting with shouldn't be endgame material.

plucky cedar
plucky cedar
weary crypt
#

Im not judging things under the pretense of it being a paid experience to be honest, it is clear Wylds being on founders is a temporary thing and it is mainly early access to this gear because of course the developers will add ways to farm these things in the future, they aren't time exclusive or only buyable permanently, we know this.

#

Which circles back to the next thing Im about to say

weary crypt
#

Excal prime, Skana Prime, Lato Prime are still considerably better than their non-prime variants.

Which, if they where farmable, this means players would still have an MR requirement for Skana and Lato prime and they would have to go through the effort of relic cracking to farm Excal prime, a considerably tedious farm if you are unlucky enough.

#

Players only payed for these to have early access and support the developers out of kindness of your own heart, a new player can still choose a wait for the game to be done and complete to then farm for these in the future (Which is one of many probabilities)

#

The Founder's Pack isn't a cheat to just getting everything early, it's an optional payment you can make to support and fuel the game's future launch

plucky cedar
prisma bluff
#

in P12 ivor was 2nd best in slot even, right behind igne mora

plucky cedar
prisma bluff
#

dambage big for longsword

weary crypt
plucky cedar
#

paperwise, Ivor is better

prisma bluff
#

mb i got them backwards

plucky cedar
prisma bluff
#

yeah ivor on paper was still best in slot unless you really cared about that extra 1% smite chance from nurash over the damage

plucky cedar
weary crypt
#

If it gets updated to P13 I'll check it out, really wished these stats where more present in-game ngl

prisma bluff
#

and this isnt even mentioning that the wylds can permanently hold multiple pact charges

#

including the weapons

weary crypt
#

Wait, Pact charges?

prisma bluff
#

yeah

#

when you pull smite a color

#

at least in p12

#

it gave a stat boost to that virtue

plucky cedar
#

interesting.

prisma bluff
#

normal pacts could temporarily hold 1 charge. Wylds cvould hold up to 3 until death. The wyld weapons could each hold one charge as well until death

#

exception was the paragon, which could hold one of all 3

plucky cedar
#

I wasn't aware of that to even pay attention to it

prisma bluff
#

that is also what the glowies are

#

i thought the persistent glow was a visual bug for a while

plucky cedar
#

Yeah, I noticed the glow in P12, but I assumed it was a bug 'cause alpha and had other visual bugs.

ocean dock
#

In p12 smiting the corresponding virtue from the wyld pacts made your arm glow and give you +10 of the virtue, was removed in p13 tho

#

It just glows now

#

Funny thing is that was mentioned briefly, and never again - and the only reason we knew about it at first was because it bugged out and was setting our virtues to 10 rather than adding them

weary crypt
#

Ngl kinda wish DE made those mechanics clear, they do sound good on paper but I feel because the where bugged they removed them until further notice, or they are present but there's no UI to show us that lol

ocean dock
#

They'd be changing it every prelude basically xD that's probably why

#

That smite mechanic only lasted 1 prelude xD p12>p13

#

Rn they can change things like that at will and it is up to us to figure out, them documenting it makes them need to backtrack 100 times per change or have a massive list to go through and reupdate and recheck especially when things are in different locations, like the virtue page - pact page, inventory probably when you have it active that sorta thing

The weirdest thing to me is still no mastery icon, something they wouldn't need to backtrack through

hollow schooner
#

So let me get this straight:

  • In Warframe, Prime gear is objectively better than base versions. That's the whole point — progression, farming, power.
    - In Soulframe, Wyld gear (the Prime equivalent) was actually good in P12. Ivor was top tier. Wylds had unique mechanics — stacking pact charges, +10 virtue on Smite, visual feedback that actually meant something.
    - Then P13 dropped. They removed the mechanics. Left the glow. Gutted the stats. Now Ivor struggles to compete with common Stultin swords.
    - And Paragon? The $100 "exclusive" sword? It'll be duplicatable. Anyone can get it from a founder. The only "exclusivity" left is a flower in a cemetery and your name on someone else's weapon.
    So what's the point? If Wylds are just skins with worse stats, and "exclusivity" means being a blueprint dispenser for others — why did we pay? To fund development? Fine. But don't call it exclusive. Don't market it as the Prime equivalent. And definitely don't remove mechanics that actually made them special without a word.
    The spreadsheet guys figured this out. Players shouldn't need spreadsheets to know if their paid gear is viable. That's not early access — that's early abandonment.
random rune
#

The Paragon sword was always going to be shareable, that was stated before Founders even launched, and The Ivor was never BIS, and scales better now than in P12

#

Wylds also still provide 60 Pact points as opposed to 30 for non-Wylds, being objectively more powerful than base versions

olive ledge
olive vortex
#

It was

olive ledge
#

Ah, my bad then

ocean dock
#

Ye def was, it activated from lighting up the the wyld visual effects on the arm (Smiting the corresponding virtues to the pact)

fading citrus
ocean dock
#

The skill trees in in general both pact & wep are inline next to get a full rework, but we don't know how exactly, only some concept art for the wep manuals and such

hollow schooner
# random rune Wylds also still provide 60 Pact points as opposed to 30 for non-Wylds, being ob...

Thanks for the response. I actually went and tested the pact point claim — reset my fully upgraded Wyld Tethren pact. Got exactly 30 points. Not 60. So that "60 Pact points" argument doesn't hold up. Maybe you're confusing it with the removed P12 mechanic (stacking charges that gave +10 per virtue) or the starting stat bonuses, but those aren't points.*

As for Ivor never being BIS — funny, because in this very thread, Maleficium and Daeighve said it was top tier in P12. Players clearly disagree, which just shows how opaque the game is. And "scales better now" doesn't mean much when the unique mechanics (like the +10 virtue on Smite) were gutted in P13, leaving just a glow. Excited and Shatter confirmed that was a Wyld-exclusive feature that's now gone.

And Paragon being shareable from the start? Fine. But then don't call it "exclusive" — it's a founder printer. The only real exclusivity left is a flower in a cemetery no one visits.

I'm not here to fight, just to point out that what was sold as a Prime equivalent has been stripped of its unique mechanics, nerfed in stats, and is now just a skin with a tiny starting bonus. That's not what founders signed up for.

random rune
#

You get 60 points when levelling both the base Pact and the Wyld Pact.

The Ivor was never top tier, Dewellion and Marrow's Bane were (and are)

half narwhal
hollow schooner
# random rune You get 60 points when levelling both the base Pact and the Wyld Pact. The Ivor...

So now it's "both pacts combined"? That's a strange way to measure a single pact's power. I can only equip one at a time. Your original claim was that Wylds give 60 points — they don't. They give 30, plus starting bonuses. That's a fact I tested. I appreciate the discussion, but shifting arguments doesn't change the reality: unique Wyld mechanics are gone, stats were nerfed, and what's left is a skin with a tiny head start.

random rune
#

No, if you level both you get 60 points on both Pacts

#

Stats have not been nerfed

glad egret
frosty jetty
#

I realize this is a week old post, and I admit I didn't read your whole post due to the opener. This is not a closed access period, it is not pre alpha. It is early access, with a full cash shop. Like PoE2, Ashes of Creation, etc DE went with the same business model. It should be treated as such. If they wanted the benefit of the pre alpha label they wouldn't be selling founders packs or premium currency. The shifting sentiment is due to this, as it's just not reasonable to ask for leniency due to pre alpha while also having paid goods in this capacity. The age old meme of Warframe being pre alpha still doesn't translate at all, and is just a crutch to lean on. I love this game but I don't play nearly as much and chose to refuse to support via transactions because the transparency has dropped off a cliff. At the start of the new year they committed to more transparency and a better idea of where the game is headed, but so far the biggest news three months in is just showing the devs playing the game and having fun, teasing gear etc. That's awesome and wholesome but not appropriate when the game is having an identity crisis and in the process saying "hey you can spend money, support us!". Defend the game you love sure, but don't defend business decisions that are just not ethical or transparent.

random rune
#

There have been devstreams and extensive patch notes for every update, what are you talking about

#

We had a whole video specifically about the Virtue changes

glad egret
# random rune There have been devstreams and extensive patch notes for every update, what are ...

They're not entirely wrong. While the devs are communicating with us in friendly, community-building ways, a lot of the changes we are presented with follow a design intent that we do not understand, doesn't correspond to the attitudes we are presented with during the streams and seem to conflict with each other. They're changing many things at once which makes testing the effects harder, they nerf things but don't repair broken stuff and don't add basic stuff that's not very expensive like basic UI information we've been begging for a long time. Some changes (and initial drop rates) feel ill to not at all thought out. Some mistakes seem to not be learned from. The game has a vision for what it wants its vibes to be, but in terms of mechanics it feels directionless at times.

And while I do think that SF is genuinely in pre-alpha, having a full price uncapped cash shop in the game during a pre-alpha should indeed open a company to more scrutiny (the founder packs I'm fine with).

I still love this game, I still think it can be pretty great, but it's a valid criticism to have, even if it's often easily discounted because it's frequently written quite angrily and accusatorily.

random rune
#

There was a whole video explaining the design intention.

One of the lines in #soulframe-news message is literally:
Virtue UI Improvements: Increased clarity on how Virtues affect builds.

frosty jetty
glad egret
frosty jetty
random rune
#

Again

#

There was an entire video, explaining the intent

frosty jetty
# random rune There was an entire video, explaining the intent

Communication 101: Effect>Intent. If the intent was to address many of the concerns, the effect is the opposite. Not trying to argue, trying to make it clear that there's a major disconnect between the feedback provided from the community and the changes made to address that feedback.

random rune
#

How is the effect the opposite? The intent was addressing the all Courage meta and many players not engaging with the Virtue system, the introduction of Prisms address both of those issues.

Now, clearly there are Envoys who don't like HOW they were addressed, which is fair and that feedback is appreciated, but "I disagree with how they did it" is not the same as "They weren't clear about their intent"

#

They were, we had oodles of information about how things were changing and what their vision was

glad egret
#

I disagree. The intent communicated in the video is appreciated, but it didn't cover a lot of the actual major changes and it also was the first explanation of that kind of depth we'd gotten pretty much since I joined the game.

hasty field
# frosty jetty I realize this is a week old post, and I admit I didn't read your whole post due...

And again people go tothe same route. I dont agree with all DE does, I have been wuite vocal on the forums regarding a lot of changes and systems faults. But I am not out of mind to just complain and not propose anything. Most of complaints arent followed by feedback, its just "I dont like A or B, revert it back" in a game thats changing a lot in development, its not early access and its closed because, hell yeah, its closed access, you cant register today and get in unless you get a key, because the access is closed to anyone that dont get a key or other means of access.

No one is defending the cash shop here, in the contrary, as a community we were in for Founders but the cash shop is unanimously disliked, to say the least.

Back to my point, if all people know to do is just complain and echo the same things said a lot of time, why not rethink their personal approach and maybe add "this could be solved by adding/removing X, changed to Y, reworked to Z, maybe integrated to D". This isnt difficult to write since a lot of those people seem to be able to write multiple paragraphs of complaints that dont propose solutions.

I am not talking about leniency to DE or defending them blindly. I am talking about pointing what is better to the game and the community in clear terms that they cant ignore, not only that, but thinking in a long time frame manner and not only to the next weekend. A lot of people cant understand that some changes may affect balance in the long term, like they did in Warframe and a miriad other games.

I always try to be civil and polite, but it has been quite difficult in the discord lately.

hasty field
# glad egret I disagree. The intent communicated in the video is appreciated, but it didn't c...

I SLIGHTLY disagree. While some changes werent clear, the prisms and requirements were pretty clear, my Discord even had prepared to major changes in builds and planned tests along (we collect data as to provide a better feedback in the foruns). We didnt like a fair share of them and were preparing a second batch of test data to provide more feedback in the form of suggestions and additions to the current system.

hasty field
# frosty jetty Communication 101: Effect>Intent. If the intent was to address many of the conce...

In the foruns we have a clearer view of this, some wanted things to stay simple, other wanted more layered systems.

There was inherent problems with the old system that was point quite a few times by the community and that would also affect negatively development in future expansions, they addressed the issue with a more layered system, but that is in need of adjustments and they need to better address specific cases were progress ended being basicly halted for many players, that is why those adjustments would be most welcome.

They have a better system base to work upon, but the application of this system rules need, as soon as possible, to follow more reasonable rules and large changes to the prisms are paramount to provide both balance and player freedom of choice. (Ive addressed those and suggested changes in the forums).

Most of us are not happy with a lot of things, me included, but I wont let it cloud my logical judgement.

glad egret
# hasty field I SLIGHTLY disagree. While some changes werent clear, the prisms and requirement...

So, you're kind of touching on my problem here: I often find it difficult to suggest improvements if I don't understand the goal. I have made multiple feedback threads with suggestions (many lost with the preludes discord), always trying to guess at a place where I would like the design but there's also a possibility of DE actually making something similar. I was happiest with my thread about Grace, specifically because it seemed clear what to do now the stat had a strongly implied design intent.

hasty field
# glad egret So, you're kind of touching on my problem here: I often find it difficult to sug...

Thats have been an issue for a while, I find better to post at the forum for the sake of direct intent, here in discord everything gets so dilluted that become almost impractable to suggest anything of content, not only that but there is also a of people that dont want the trouble of suggesting anything at all. I try to discuss changes and suggestions but its not that easy here.

Thanks for working together with the community, we must show DE the way.

iron vine
#

I guess this lack of clear vision is also due to the divide in the playerbase : some want a sandbox farming adventure with OP abilities, others want a solid and balanced RPG with challenging content. Some want a solo game, others want multiplayer...

hasty field
#

PS: sorry if my writing skills arent that good, english is my third language and I happen to make some mistakes.

hasty field
# iron vine I guess this lack of clear vision is also due to the divide in the playerbase : ...

But thats also a problem withsome players.

DE has being clear since the games reveal that is will be a balanced RPG game with focus on cooperative gameplay that can also enjoyed solo. Quite similar to Warframe's model. They both run in the same engine as well.

Steve has also said quite some times that they want all playstyles to be not only viable but satifactory.

People dont see that a game like this being a sandbox will live on a eternal Meta where the most OP build will be what the greater majority of the community will be using, making pointless a large part of the content, for example armors, weapons, pacts and mechanics. It isnt a easy thing to balance and make good adjustments but we cant wiat for DE to decide on everything and complain when it is all done (Warframe again).

We can give feedback based on what we have now, even if it changes later, those changes will have a path influenced by player imput.

dusk knot
#

+1 again

fading citrus
#

+1 just to be sure

prisma bluff
# olive vortex It was

+10 virtue until death is what wylds did. All pacts got +10 temporary virtue. And don't forget, the weapons coulkd also hold more charges of smite!!

prisma bluff
ocean dock
#

Unless you mean the pact skill tree, that is not what we were talking about

hallow ibex
# random rune There was an entire video, explaining the intent

so i may be in an odd part of the boat, but I'm fine with the way they've reworked the virtues, maybe grace should be moreso attack damage than sneak attacks, but in general it seems fine. Where I am not fine is the stupid prisms. The prisms that they spent a grand total of 30 seconds of that video on before moving away from the topic faster than a bullet. It straight up disincentivizes interacting with your virtues at all. I have zero interest in acquiring different virtue configurations from the factions when I should be able to just configure it myself. Leads me to just use one of the Wyld prisms and use pact points to get the bare minimum needed to use whatever weapons im wanting to level. I get that they wanted to make the virtues able to have a "slot" to configure with so the amount of build variance went down, but they knew that change was going to be unpopular. I refuse to believe they would spend so little time going over it unless they absolutely knew the playerbase would hate it.

#

i've spent a good deal of my time since this update came out grinding different stuff and playing the game. I have basically spent zero time even looking at the prisms. I max out all of the virtue nodes on the pacts, or at least what im wanting to use for a weapon. I have no desire to make a build, i just kind of float around to different weapons

#

and once im out of weapons to build, im basically going to drop the game until they add more

round sequoia
# hallow ibex so i may be in an odd part of the boat, but I'm fine with the way they've rework...

My big issue with the update has nothing to do with the reworking of the virtues, and everything to do with requirements and locking.
I agree completely with the Prism argument, though personally I feel it isn't the biggest argument I don't think it's a bad one, basically I'm not disagreeing just adding.

The problem with the update is that, while their stated intent appears to have been "simplifying things", what they've ended up doing is "dumbing things down", and yeah, prisms making you stop even touching your virtues is absolutely a good point as well.

They made things "simpler" by removing a lot of options, and there are a lot of results of that.

left dock
#

This is just straight up incorrect lol

#

Like if you just started out as tethren, sure you might be pushed into courage for a little while, but that's literally the only pact I'm still courage-maxing

#

And even then tethren also loves a full spirit setup so courage isn't even the only way there, either

midnight scroll
#

Yeah don't want to be that guy, but ye some yall kinda missing the point with prisms. I honestly don't know how to explain that would get ppl to: Ohhhh, yeah i'm still not over it, but now makes sense

However, one thing ppl are correct about, is that while majority do like prism system, good portion of ppl are not satisfied with locked stats. I would even dare to say it's 50/50, seen some intense debates, and both sides were true.

Many just want to nudge some stats with equipped prisms, but just some +stats, not in +10 to courage on already existing +30 courage prism for example. Simple between +1 --- +4 maybe

winter patio
meager hemlock
# winter patio Please keep the feedback constructive & not saying you clearly hate everything y...

This guideline feels pretty vague and doesn’t clearly say that people aren’t allowed to express dislike for content. To me, whether something counts as hate or just dislike seems completely up to the moderator’s personal judgment, which doesn’t feel very fair.
After all, people expressing dislike is still a form of feedback. Right now it often feels like moderators just remove feedback based on their own preference. I think DE should probably take another look at these rules and clarify or adjust them.

prisma bluff
meager hemlock
#

I think this is one of the reasons why this post has survived for so long

limber crater
#

+1, got into the alphas awhile ago, sunk ~50 hours into it, and then took a break. came back recently, and prisms are just annoying. I understand what the thought process is behind them, but in the end it really just turns out to feel clunky and really, really limiting more than anything else. Maybe im being short sighted, but i dont think there would be an issue if the system just whent back to where it was, (allocating points as you wished). It would let you make pretty strong builds sure, but so do the prisms that max out one stat.

TLDR: prisms are really frustrutating and honestly make me sad. If you have to keep them, please atleast add a special prisms wich allows you to allocate points as you want, or something similar

hearty totem
#

The issue is not prisms or attunement requirements, it's both at the same time... Prisms are an interesting way to remove min-maxxing, while using the attunement system, forcing users to have minimum stats just makes prisms feel awful, as it locks lower MR players out of using a lot of armor pieces/weapons...

limber crater
#

also, why are people saying min/maxing is bad? If you dont agree with it you dont have to play that way, but that doesnt mean others should be locked out of the option

hearty totem
#

Min-maxxing is not the vibe DE is going with this game, I don't see it as a bad thing, honestly, I will always run the most meta build possible because I like my games comfortable and non-challenging.

limber crater
#

sure sure, it just makes me sad that im locked out of that option for seemingly no reason. I want my stats to go where I want them to go, i dont want them predetermined for me, thats all

hearty totem
#

That's the thing with the prisms, they are going where you want them to go, just in the ratios DE has made prisms for

#

For players starting post-prisms, this will feel natural.

limber crater
#

well, yes, however I dont get while those limmited ratios have to be forced uppon us

meager hemlock
hearty totem
#

I'd say resetting on blessed is too much tbh

hearty totem
limber crater
#

more over, prisms dont really seem to be a scalable system. What happens if the game launches and we still use prisms? people will want more than the, like, dozen there are now (and i know more will be added yeah but still). theres only so many ratios that make sense to be given as pre-determined options

hearty totem
#

It is scalable, because prisms are just ratios of power from your MR, which is fine, but I rather them do MR locks instead of this smoke and mirrors with minimum requirements

meager hemlock
hearty totem
#

I'm sure there will, eventually, be one.

limber crater
#

If people like prisms than great, keep them in, but for those who dont add some option to let us revert. the game is competative or anything, if i use single allocation than thats not going to affect anybody else unless im playing with them

limber crater
hearty totem
#

It's scalable in all ways tbh, takes your account level as a sign of overall progression, scales the numbers off that, they calculate enemy difficulty from a specific ratio of stats and bob's your uncle.

limber crater
#

not in-game stat scaling. I mean litteraly "how long untill this content will get old/boring/outdated and it will need an update" scalable

hearty totem
#

Individual stat assignment doesn't really fix that

limber crater
#

sure it does, it removes the need to worry about the feature all together

hearty totem
#

Then why have stats in the first place?

limber crater
#

?

hearty totem
#

if your goal is to not engage with something, why have it in a game?

limber crater
#

Im not saying we shouldnt engage with stats

#

Im saying that right now there are like 12 prisms. In x years when the game launches, do you think people will have gotten bored of only having 12 choices? if so, then how many more prisms can be added before it becomes redundant?

hearty totem
#

It's not an evergreen system, all relevant prisms will eventually be added, yes. But engaging with the game in different ways to acquire them makes the system more... Engaging

limber crater
#

wait rq, what does evergreen system refer to? Want to make sure i understand what your saying correctly

hearty totem
limber crater
#

ahh gotcha, i see now

hearty totem
#

it'll eventually be obsolete, and more of a "meh, I have the best, move on"

limber crater
#

I suppose so, but theres better way to do it i think. off the top of my head they could use single allocation, but then limmit your max. then, that max could be raised by doing stuff in-world.

hearty totem
#

The issue is the minimum requirements, where on top of having the correct prism to scale your weapons, you need the additional minimum to even enable these scalings, it feels like I'm being cheated out of the item, as maybe I have 2 or 3 spirit, and realistically that'd be a minimal amount of scaling, but still, it's what I can do at that moment, with that MR

limber crater
#

yeah i do agree with that. it really is sort of a situation where minimums and prisms fight against eachother

hearty totem
#

exactly, it feels weird because you have double loss of control on system that feel opposed

#

If you had prisms and low mr, getting a 3 star armor piece would feel like you're not using it to it's full potential yet, BUT it still does something for you.

limber crater
#

sure sure, now though you just cant do shit with anything you unlock unless you have the right prism

hearty totem
#

not even that, once you hit high enough MR with a correct talisman, it really doesn't matter

#

even a starter prism will do

limber crater
#

ah well, i cant speak on that. I only have a couple rn, but ill take your word on it

hearty totem
#

It scales crazy aggressive and rewards unlocking and levelling everything in the game...

#

It's the minimum reqs man, leave a sour taste to unlock this crazy rare and strong armor piece and be 1 virtue point off from using it... Same with weapons.

Let the low scaling work, so low points scale low, and when high, scale high, that simple

limber crater
#

as i said in my first post, i understand why theyve added prisms, but it feels like a bandaid solution more than anything else. If they really want to have a more engaging way to allocate stats than just doing it yourself, there are plenty of other, less restrictive ways to do so

hearty totem
#

like what? 👀

limber crater
#

a little earlier I gave the example of using single point allocation and having stat max capped, but then letting you raise that cap by doing things out in the world. at the most surface level, this could just be like fetch quests or something, but thats boring. Instead it could be things like the hunting grounds in HzD, where you have to complete like x out of y challenges in order to get a big increase to your max.

Alternatively, and this ones a little out there, they devs could take inspiration from like cultivation media and have there be a number of rituals/potion/mcguffins that we would need to raise a cap, but we have to explore the world and/or complete side quests to get the pieces to make said thing. As an example, lets say I want to raise my max courage. to do so, i would need a potion of courage. but, i dont know the recipie or the ingredients. so now i have 2 options, i can either look it up and rush better stats, or explore naturaly. either way, id evantualy find what I would need, craft the potion, and get the stat levels. Then, next time I want to increase courage, i have to find a different mcguffin to do it

#

thats just off the top of my head, theres probably gazzillions more

#

oo you could also probably combine those two ideas

hearty totem
#

so still manual point allocation

limber crater
#

yes, but instead of being to minmax right off the gate you actualy have to engage with the world to do it, just like the prisms

#

maybe im misunderstanding what people like about prisms

hearty totem
#

The prisms just ratio it out, your account progression dictates values. There is never a min-max with prisms, just best for the occasion, with stats you can easily dump all into one, force all your gear(or just use gear that best scales with) and go wild with it

limber crater
#

i mean you can do that with prisms as well

hearty totem
#

They're trying to make you not stat dump, because that's not really "engaging" with the system

limber crater
#

how is it not engaging with the system?

hearty totem
#

Don't take it out on me lol the previous courage meta was discouraging for them apparently

limber crater
#

im looking at what stats work best with the weapons and armor i like, and then allocating points in such a way that lets me use them effectively

hearty totem
#

min-maxxing

limber crater
#

really am curious to know their reasoning as to why thats minmaxxing

hearty totem
#

would need to ask them, they usually answer on forum questions pre-devstream thumbs

limber crater
#

oh for real?

#

huh

#

i just might do that then

hearty totem
#

:)

limber crater
#

okay yeah uppon trying to swap out of the build ive been using my hatred for minimums has grown exponentialy lol

olive ledge
random rune
#

As long as Envoys continue to be constructive in their feedback

meager hemlock
#

The prism system you like is created by the influence of players who raise objections

#

This group of people is the biggest factor that can force the game to improve.

#

If you liked the Prism system from the start, then you'll hate these hotfixes

potent snow
#

I dislike the prism system because I feel it takes my agency away to build my character the way I would like to. Plenty of people addressed that not spending virtue points could have been easily addressed with a popup notification, but the other thing I keep seeing regurgitated about the meta was that everyone was just going full courage. Real ones know that virtue allocation didn't matter in the slightest if you were rocking a bow with Torrent.

This update has discouraged me from playing - specifically with regards to the virtue system and weapon changes. I like minimal limitations and simplifications in my games (one of the reasons I've been more drawn to tabletop systems). I don't think newer players should have to grind out rep to feasibly try out new grip types if they get tired of their current one.

I'm not even asking for free virtue point reallocation at any time like we previously had. And I think prisms could have a place if they reverted back to point spend in the form of amplifying or adding different effects to their respective virtues or combinations. But I don't expect a change from the current system, so I'll probably just sit aside and see what changes the next update brings.

half narwhal
#

I personally liked the prism system from the start, but thought it had some issues with how requirements are set up. I liked the hotfixes because they changed the requirements, and I hope future hotfixes change how one earns prisms, as that's my other concern with the system. So, oddly, I personally would disagree that if you like prisms you hate the hotfixes.

#

I liked prisms for their potential, still do, but I'm also aware of the issues in execution with them when combined with the other changes.

meager hemlock
#

The method of obtaining prisms before hotfix is only a minor issue

olive ledge
#

I didn't go full courage before, but now that all the weapons I like are courage, I'm forced to go full courage

meager hemlock
#

Hotfixes reduce the virtue points required for most weapons, which weakens the purpose of the Prisms system

olive vortex
#

Tying everything together is questionable at best, streamlining weapon types to virtues reduces the ability to mix and match without retaining full bonuses

half narwhal
#

I'd disagree, putting prisms behind factions was something I've been against as it makes it a bit of a hurdle for newer players, but that's just my perspective on what should or shouldn't change

olive ledge
#

They did 3 things at once so it's hard to give feedback on individual systems

olive vortex
#

Prisms on their own and at their current state are not much of an improvement over manual allocation no matter how many excuses people come up with

#

It's what's linked to the virtues

half narwhal
#

Overall, I'd just encourage against making sweeping statements like "if you liked the Prisms you must have hated the hotfixes", as it's not necessarily accurate. One can like a new system while acknowledging flaws in its execution and appreciating fixes that come for issues within.

olive ledge
meager hemlock
#

I have always held a negative view of a system that simultaneously affects weapons,skills and armor.

olive vortex
#

In the devstream they said prisms were gonna be added to fables, well they should've done that to atleast a couple of prisms

#

And definitely not lock some behind faction grind lol

olive ledge
olive vortex
#

For example the two fables where you pick a virtue option, there you can be awarded with an extreme prism towards whichever virtue u chose

#

They know faction grind isn't good and they're acknowledging and improving it

#

So locking prisms behind it leaves a bad taste in my mouth

olive ledge
olive vortex
#

^ you can't control how much weapon bonus damage you lose in favor of whatever else you need to choose whether it's another weapon or an ability

red token
# olive ledge 1: Prisms 2: Making weapon categories determine the scaling attribute instead of...

The only one I disagree with is the locking of categories to certain virtues. I don't mind if all of a category scale off a virtue, like say all short blades scaling off grace, but short blades should not be forced to run grace in order to be effective.

I like the prism system, and while I get the complaint about hitting weapon damage cap and less fine tuning possible, I don't see it being that big of a deal. With the three star weapons it's almost if not entirely impossible to hit the damage cap, and while one star and two star weapons are a lot more manageable to cap out, they're also not as rare or as powerful by design. That feels fine to me.

A common longsword should not be as good as Igne Mora. Now, if there was a way to make that long sword as powerful as Igne Mora, I'd be okay with that too. A way to make any weapon three star would be very welcome

random rune
red token
random rune
#

I would also caution heavily against any belief that "The majority of players like/dislike X" because it's extremely easy to get caught in echo chambers.

Even the most followed threads about this topic have at best a little over a 100 Envoys giving feedback, in the grand scheme of things that is not a large part of the playerbase

olive vortex
#

It's a part that matters since they're willing to voice their opinions and dislikes

tawdry delta
#

I took a bit of a break and came back to the new virtue prism change, and while I am not going to threaten to leave or anything, I was fairly annoyed upon logging in first because I got attacked while trying to read the in-game pop up and so had to go digging into the patch notes to get the info.

I had been playing a spirit build with spirit attuned weapons, and now I only have the starter spirit prism and wyld spirit prism and now cannot reach the minimum requirements for all of the weapons I had been using. I wanted to pop on for a bit of fun and was presented with an entirely new system that requires me to learn quite a bit of new information to try to get back to what I was doing before. This was a moment of disappointment and I ended up shutting the game down because I wasn't in a learning mood

I'll probably look into learning the new system, but also that means I'm going to have to be in a learning mood to boot up the game again, and I'm not sure how much time I'm going to have to spend to get all the different prisms (not sure even how to get them yet) just to be able to use the things I was already using. Just more returning player yells at change, but this seems to be a place for it

fair carbon
random rune
#

Feedback yes, player trends no, 100 odd players are not a viable sample considering the amount of players who have access. Especially in a feedback forum. If you are pleased with a system you are far less likely to give feedback that's just "This is good no notes"

Feedback is important, negative feedback is important, I'm simply saying "Me and these other people don't like it therefore the majority of players must dislike it" is a fallacy. Nor is it needed to give feedback, the playerbase doesn't have to feel the same as you for your feedback to be worthwhile

olive vortex
#

It doesn't have to but it's a relevant fact that others feel the same

left dock
#

But you are making up the "fact" that the majority feels the same, that is the problem

#

If that majority exists it will speak for itself in volumes, it doesn't need anyone to say "the majority feels this way" even when that is true (and verifiable).

olive vortex
#

I didn't make up any fact actually

#

I just pointed out how it can be true

dim seal
#

Yeah I’m pretty chill about it and only sometimes pop in on a few when bored because otherwise I just like the system. A lot of others probably don’t even look at the forums/discord

left dock
dim seal
#

Yeah fact is we’re a small sample size of nerds

olive vortex
#

Cause I don't like baseless personal attacks

left dock
olive vortex
#

You linked a whole thread

#

Saying this is off topic after speaking about what i said outside of this thread is funny

left dock
#

Yep and it's full of you saying things with no source

olive vortex
#

My sources are the devstreams, go have a watch

#

Just to note here that's you're still off topic btw

left dock
#

Then I'm sure you won't have trouble providing links and timestamps 🙂

olive vortex
#

You think I'm gonna spend the effort after you claimed i pull facts out of thin air?

#

Go watch the devstreams

left dock
#

So you can't back up your statements, got it.

#

You can just say that next time instead of deflecting.

#

(I will also gladly take this convo over to that thread if you'll provide the quotes and timestamps I originally asked for there)

olive vortex
#

No one is deflecting, you can't accept how I'm not caving in after you attacked me with no evidence

#

Quit while you're ahead

left dock
#

I linked a whole thread of evidence but sure, you're exonerated. Congrats, Mr. President.

olive vortex
#

You expect me to pull specific timestamps when you won't even pull specific messages I've sent

#

See the problem here?

#

I don't know why you're dragging this on

#

I'm gonna stop now cause this is really stupid

left dock
#

Certainly easier than scouring hours and hours of streams.

olive vortex
#

You're right

half narwhal
#

Alright, that's enough. Let's keep this civil please.

In general, try and avoid making sweeping statements or attacks on others. This goes for everyone in the thread. You're welcome to share your opinion on the game, but keep the criticism on the game, and focus on your personal critiques and feedback.

prisma bluff
scenic cove
#

+1
To be honest, the system as it is will only works long term if we ever get prisms that pass beyond 100% distribution, which would just lead to a power creeping.
I wish I could tell a solution, but I believe a mix of both systems (Prism and points distribution) would be the way I'd like to go. Still not sure exactly how that should works. Maybe you could distribute points like before, but prisms potentialize it by some %

fading citrus
#

But honestly

#

They should just drop the numbers entirely

#

Prisms would work if they were just "which virtue are your character most aligned with" without actual points being involved

olive vortex
#

That's how I first imagined prisms would be

scenic cove
prisma bluff
olive ledge
#

No sliders for the love of god

#

I don't want to spend 20 minutes fidgeting with some slider thing to get the values I want

#

I do agree with virtue distribution being saved to loadouts

fading citrus
prisma bluff
#

I mean the micromanaging is solved by saving the points to loadouts, which I honestly think they should've done instead of prisms

true bobcat
olive ledge
olive ledge
#

Stop trying to fix the prisms and just admit it's a bad system

meager hemlock
meager hemlock
#

A game played by more people is not necessarily a good game, but a game played by very few people, and the game developer will most likely stop dev the game

red token
# tawdry delta I took a bit of a break and came back to the new virtue prism change, and while ...

If no one has told you yet, you get the starter prisms by talking to the associated faction, even without joining. The specialized prisms come from rank 2 of associated factions, and the dual virtues come from each faction that shares a virtue with that prism, at rank 4 I believe. So Rose has all grace related prisms, and shares the grace/spirit prism with alca's children. If you want a prism that is more specialized than starter but not hyper focused like what you get in the faction stores, then you need to get the wyld prisms from founders.

red token
tawdry delta
#

thank you! And yeah, it is more the grip type virtue assignments that annoyed me, as all the spirit attuned blades I was using now have a minimum courage requirement that my prisms can't meet right now

#

I've seen a few soulslike games go with something similar to the Prism system and I do like the concept, but that being combined with the new way the weapons work meant that I was suddenly hit with a bunch of restrictions that did not exist the last time I played

iron vine
#

The more I think about it, the more I feel that the prisms are the method to introduce the corrupted virtues... not that I like them, but maybe this is one of the reason.

olive ledge
half narwhal
#

Talking to the faction heads, whether or not you have the talisman, gives you the basic prism

true bobcat
prisma bluff
prisma bluff
olive ledge
#

That's new since I last tried going to the other enclaves

red token
#

It was added with prisms

red token
scenic cove
red token
prisma bluff
random rune
# red token Yes. The complaint is specifically that all short blades require grace, even if ...

There are already exceptions to this, Dewellion is a Long Blade that scales with Grace, and Thrice Spurned are Flyblades that scale with Courage.

The recent changes to several weapons to give them hybrid requirements also helped a lot. Sure you still need Spirit for Odiac, but at 8 Spirit and 8 Courage you can meet that requirement extremely easily. The Pact Virtue nodes alone give you +6 in each

dim seal
red token
fading citrus
dim seal
random rune
dim seal
red token
dim seal
#

it used to be the spirit sword and had lower scaling, now that its courage it kind lost its place

SollosI.png
half narwhal
#

Would be fine with a 1 star (or 2 star with reduced stats) for each weapon virtue combination, so you have a dedicated option for each other virtue that has less effectiveness.

dim seal
#

yeah that's what I want more of. The best long blades can stay courage

olive vortex
red token
dim seal
#

they're weak then and don't outclsas specific weapons but help out

half narwhal
#

Honestly that could be a fun solution. Make a "universal" common weapon of each grip that's 1 scaling in each virtue. Common means a lower scaling cap and typically worse base stats, but this way players looking to just vibe in lower level content can have more flexibility.

#

And then if they want to try Cogah they learn to engage more with the limits and buildcrafting "puzzle" the devs have as a form of progression.

dim seal
half narwhal
#

Plus it being a rare and having a higher scaling cap as a result.

round sequoia
#

There's a lot of discussion about how it would be fine for things to be locked behind virtues if the cost was just smaller, or if there were more options, but my question will always be what actual improvement does the game get by locking things at all

If you say "It makes the game more interestingly complicated", I will argue that, firstly it does not (extended in the next part), and secondly if that is the goal there are far more ways to do that (for example, there are people in favor of adding more virtues / player stats. That's not my vote, but it is an option)
If you say "it makes you think about your build more" I will happily point out that, again, it does not. If my build is restricted to fewer options, I am not thinking about my build. And in all likelihood, as a player I will try one thing, and either be frustrated that it doesn't work or keep using that thing. This makes me think about my build less in the same way that a shooter with "classes" makes you think about your build less than in ARMA.
If you say "it makes the game simpler", I will argue that the devs have fought tooth and nail to avoid telling people half the stats in the game, and that is a much bigger deal than "I can equip magic and sword on the bow frame"
If you say "it makes virtues matter" I will again point out that there are far more ways to do that than restricting equipment. In fact, I will argue that it makes virtues matter less, because now they are intrinsically tied to what loadout you are capable of using, so there's actually fewer "choices" you can make with virtues. Now it's just a "I want to use a sword, so I put some here"

The lockout doesn't help anything. It just restrict player choice

left dock
#

Why is restriction inherently a bad thing to you?

#

Because I think you'll find that most games have them. And the ones that don't usually all run into the same problem of just defaulting to the single best thing because why wouldn't you.

red token
# round sequoia There's a lot of discussion about how it would be fine for things to be locked b...

Prisms do indeed make you think about your build more. What counters this is the "each grip type gets tied to a virtue" set up that came with it, such as all longswords regardless of moveset being tied to courage, sometimes having an extra scaling virtue. This is where the restrictions truly hit. Prisms interact with pacts in very interesting ways, compounded by the universal buffs you get from the virtues. Grace Ode Tempest plays different from Spirit Ode Tempest plays different from Courage Ode Tempest, and these differences get expanded upon with the dual prisms as well.

pure freedom is a great goal, but frequently that end goal ruins things. These prisms are not perfect, but them existing as a whole does help the game

honest robin
#

I mean the core concept of any game is a defined goal that is achieved through a set of rules that complicate achieving said goal, no? You can only use your feet to handle the ball and score a goal in soccer or else it's not soccer anymore.

Now obviously SF is a much more complicated set of rules around a less defined goal so it's not quite a 1-for 1 here. I do find it odd though, especially in an RPG, to say you'll only try one way of doing something if it's restricted in any way rather than try and figure out what the restrictions do allow. Maybe it's that I approach games in a fundamentally different way so I truly don't get the argument (and I'm not being snarky, this is a genuine possibility), but to me it seems like a refusal to engage with the game on its own terms rather than at least try to figure out what the restrictions are doing in the first place.

olive ledge
red token
sterile nebula
#

I like that all the virtues are actually useful now (grace isn't just a range increase now lmao), though the prisms... I understand why people don't like them. As a high level envoy, prisms haven't weakened me, but that's not a fair estimate when grace used to be a useless range increase.

olive ledge
errant jetty
# red token Prisms do indeed make you think about your build more. What counters this is the...

The requirements on weapons and armor make you think about your virtues more, not prisms.
Prisms are just going to get worse as time goes on since there will be less and less control over where points go as out virtue point maximum climbs.
Also, if we consider them adding passives then is it going to be a passive option for each of the current distributions? If so, since there are 12 virtue distributions then by the time we have 3 passives we will have an additional 36 prisms for a total of 48 prisms. This is a lot of inventory upkeep where players could just, you know, attribute points the way their build requires.
Prisms could still be there to grant passives, but since we will only need one per passive released then that means the number of prisms won't spiral out of control too quickly.
Really, they are my least favorite change and very build crafting unfriendly.

iron vine
#

I would also argue that these complaints seem to come from people that want to specialize heavily without any compromise (example : tanky mage with greatsword throwing fireballs), are low level or don't want to research or change their build.
This is a RPG so there needs to be some restrictions to create balanced and coherent characters. Think of it as a puzzle. We have 8 pacts (excluding wylds), 12 prisms and many weapons... You are supposed to play with those pieces and combine them to make them work somehow, but they don't all fit together.
There is less diversity now, but that is not relevant if 99% of the possibilities are unplayed. Also, remember that pacts are now independent from virtues and that hybrid builds are fun and viable in P13.

round sequoia
# iron vine I would also argue that these complaints seem to come from people that want to s...

One of the most important things you put out is "are low level" (I'll get back to this)
You then go on to say there must be restrictions to create balanced and coherent characters.
Firstly, the simplest balancing thing that a game can do, that will always create perfect balance, is to lock every single dps number. This does not restrict anything at all, and a lot of games do it.
Secondly, Coherent characters?
I'm going to go back to two games: First, Skyrim, second, Warframe.

Neither of those games require a puzzle to restrict the characters.
You can use what you like, and spend points to improve what you like (in one case) or just get better in general (in the other)

I realise it's easy to feel like Warframe is a game that was fun and is old, but warframe is MASSIVE and hugely popular. And it is that for a reason.
That reason is not that it put restrictions everywhere, especially not on low level characters.

Creating a puzzle is great but only if it adds something to the game; Like Modding, for example, or some of the more complex shouts / alchemies in skyrim.

Lastly, You specifically mention "If you're low level"
Yeah. That is one of the biggest reasons people stop playing games; They start the game, they can't do any of the things they want to do, so they stop playing it. It is extremely important that new players dont get ripped to pieces because they picked the "wrong" build at the beginning of the game.
Want another easy Warframe example?
Loki was removed from the starter set of warframes for EXACTLY this reason.
It was way too easy to pick loki, be not great at the game, and learn that the warframe has no offensive or defenseive abilities. This meant the game sucked, and you stopped playing.