What a product is worth - Discussion on pricings and founders packs

[mellow widget]

There have been a couple debates on whether the founders pack is worth its price or not. This post is an attempt at capturing this debate in a format people can be happier with.

Although this is concerning Soulframe and its monetary practices, this is not really "feedback" and more so a discussion post made here for lack of a better place. Still, it might as well be seen as feedback.

[queen wedge]

I think it’s worth the price, because the purpose of the packs are support tiers. Anything you get out of it is a bonus. You’re not required to get higher or lower tiers

[mellow widget]

Just as a reminder, this is the subject of debate

[willow galleon]

Prices are a lot lower than I expected
Worth is also subjective and there's nothing in those packs with actual utility that you won't be able to acquire for free later on. I think they did great!

[mellow widget]

... no there are weapons in this pack that are currently unobtainable in other ways

Many weapons actually

[willow galleon]

That's what I said - "acquire for free later on"

Weapons and Pacts are currently exclusive to supporters. Once these packs are gone, all of it will be available to f2p

[wooden grotto]

someone ping fartagon

[queen wedge]

Is it a discussion on the price? or the ethics/morals of exclusive content to preorders/supporters

Because that’s two different lanes

[mellow widget]

Both, I think you cant discuss one without the other

[queen wedge]

I mean, you can. They’re very distinct questions

“Are the supporter packages worth the amount of money they’re listed for?”

“What are the ethics/morals of putting exclusive items behind a paywall on an unfinished product?”

It’s included already. So it’s not really relevant to the pricing discussion whether or not it’s moral/ethical for practice

Just whether or not it’s exclusivity affects the price

[wooden grotto]

am i tripping or was the conversation not even that heated 😭

[queen wedge]

And in the end, they’re supporter packages. The prices are just to funnel money to DE. It’s like asking if patreon or kickstarter are “worth it”

It’s however much money you feel like you’d wanna donate, and you get a bonus out of it

[mellow widget]

I read "Are they worth [it]" in a more subjective sense (i.e. "Are they worth it to me?") not in a calculateable monetary sense

[queen wedge]

Idk I didn’t see the convo, I joined the server after the convo was already started

[mellow widget]

No it wasnt. But many people - the Warframe community especially - can not handle controversial topic and constructive debate. So every criticism is instead misinterpreted as a personal attack on something they like.

People wouldn't be taking the time to write out a structured critique if they did not care on at least some level..

But whatever, thats not the point

[queen wedge]

Yeah, point is to discuss the value

I think it’s not there, only reason to pitch that much money to it would be to support DE

[wooden grotto]

i just feel like the mods r kinda infantilizing us

[queen wedge]

That’s not relevant to the price point, did yall just wanna make a thread to complain about mods? It started out so well

[wooden grotto]

i said 2 sentences, how r u already complaining oml

[queen wedge]

Kinda childish if the topic can’t be dropped

[wooden grotto]

💀

[queen wedge]

Bc the two sentences were complaints about mods, in a chat discussing the price point

[mellow widget]

The Paragon Founder bundle thing is a bad thing in my opinion.

Essentially developers ask your monetary support for an unfinished product. Better yet, since this is a digital product, you may lose access to the things you paid for at any moment. DE is entitled to ban you on a whim and give you no reason.
I would get it if this was a Kickstarter by a young indie dev asking for support to even make a project possible or something. But it isn't this is a multimillion-dollar company that is internationally traded.

[queen wedge]

That’s fair, they are a titan, they prob don’t need the money. If anything, it’s whale bait

But the option is there

I’d compare it to getting tennocon tickets

[wooden grotto]

thread was made bc "arguing", i mentioned it once, its not a big deal

[queen wedge]

Wait, those were cheaper right?

[wooden grotto]

for what its worth i agree w ur first message

[mellow widget]

They are but they do that everywhere. Especially in settings with corporate bearings.
Discord has normalized putting people into positions of authority over others that have no right being in those positions. And many do not do well in those positions but devolve into authoritarianism.

[queen wedge]

In game ones*

[mellow widget]

DE is very tame in that regard. I have seen faaaaar worse places.

[queen wedge]

Why are we talking about authoritarianism 😂

It’s not that deep

[mellow widget]

Unfortunately it is exactly that deep

[queen wedge]

A discord mod got grouchy with yall. Yall got a space to discuss the topic yall wanted, and now yall still complaining

[wooden grotto]

esp considering u get 85 bucks of premium currency

i dont see the difference between founders and getting plat in wf

this is acc alot better value

[queen wedge]

I’m here for it

[mellow widget]

Tbf, wholy artificial premium currency

[wooden grotto]

u say that like thats not all currency lol

[mellow widget]

And I would question whether or not it is really that legitimate to put microtransactions into what is essentially a closed alpha

[wooden grotto]

u lowk have a point

but personally i like that they added it

[mellow widget]

We are glorified playtesters after all, except we pay THEM so we can report the game bugs and help them fix it

[queen wedge]

I’m here for it, did they say if soulframe was gonna be free on release?

I think freemium is fine

[wooden grotto]

important to note we dont have to pay

[wooden grotto]

yes

[mellow widget]

We dont, no, but many only have access because someone at some point paid

Paying gives you keys to access the game after all

[queen wedge]

Warframe is solid. Money for cosmetics, and “rush” features. It’s not P2W.

I see no issues with turning it into a money maker

[queen wedge]

Well, access to the alpha

[mellow widget]

See, what I am afraid of is this;

[queen wedge]

Game will be available later for free

[mellow widget]

Warframe made its good reputation off of being a game that is incredibly fair to its users.
The premium currency is tradeable, almost everything can be acquired just through gameplay and the grinds aren't atrocious.

I remember seeing that one interview where they said they removed a feature to reroll your Kubrow features for plat because people were using it too much I think?

Going back on this motto of fairness with how deep Warframe is now would be a huuugeee commercial risk

I am afraid that they are using Soulframe - a new game from the ground up - to implement much more predatory monetary practices

What if the premium currency never becomes tradeable? What if non-cosmetic features just.. stay premium only (as is the case now)

Locking the look transmog behind premium currency is already a daring move I think

[wooden grotto]

atp founders is like preordering a free game

[mellow widget]

.. and getting exclusive features

I think it was about six or seven weapons currently that are founders-only

[wooden grotto]

temporarily* exclusive

[mellow widget]

Also the Wyld Pacts

[mellow widget]

We have no guarantee of that

Everything is subject to change, its an alpha. Sure, DE said things, but game devs go back on things they said its not a novelty.

[queen wedge]

Monster Hunter World with their Hunter tickets, thought it was wild

7$ to change ur appearance

[queen wedge]

I’d compare it to kickstarter

[mellow widget]

Even the comparison to kickstarter falls flat

[queen wedge]

Bc they already have money

[mellow widget]

The people on Kickstarter usually really need it.
DE doesn't

People get overly protective of DE as if they were their personal best buddies on Warframe forums. Something about the digital age and asymmetric social relationships...

At the end of the day, they are a company and they want to make money. Especially with Tencent in their backs

[queen wedge]

Yeah, it’s just the closest thing I can see. Or just a paid alpha. Like I said, the different tiers fit the same flavor as a kickstarter or patreon. You’re just throwing money at the company or team, and get something out of it. Most of the time it’s a toss up if it’s worth

Tbh, I’m a whale, I had a lot of disposable income I threw at Warframe, they could’ve just had the flowers and I still woulda got the highest tier.

[mellow widget]

There is no real worth to this. These are immaterial goods that can be revoked at any moment.

[queen wedge]

God, yall remember Evolve

[mellow widget]

But you can also just.. like bad things.

[queen wedge]

Imagine getting the premium preorder for Evolve, buying skins and monsters in the shop, then the servers getting shut down after less than a year

I’d lose my mind

[mellow widget]

Oh yeah that is something that can realistically happen here too

[queen wedge]

Yeah, or the failed kickstarters

Ppl doing outrageous backs on kickstarter then no product ever gets fully released

[mellow widget]

Soulframe is going to come one way or the other. Another difference from Kickstarter

[queen wedge]

I’d say there’s no need to get any of the supporting packages for founder. People hand out free codes on the Reddit, I’ll be handing out free codes on the Reddit.

It’s just a donation button

[wooden grotto]

u get plat to use in the future

tho im ngl

i bought founders before i found out about the arcs lmao

[queen wedge]

My story is a little more embarrassing I think, I’d rather not tell

[wooden grotto]

please do

[queen wedge]

I think the only value these have is the personal feeling of exclusivity

Like the flowers

And even then, the flowers need work, the garden n such

[queen wedge]

I dunno what the games about I just got the founders so I wouldn’t miss out like I did with WF

[mellow widget]

I dropped a LOT of money into Warframe too. Easily like... 400 € over the 10+ years Ive been playing?
I regretted little of it because I always thought the game dev was small, despite being small they were very fair to their customers, the game was modelled in a way that people less financially fortunate than me can still play (and, in a sense, my contribution enables their play) AND DE does multiple, yearly charity projects.
Warframe and DE used to be synonymous - Id argue still are - so the practices of Warframe characterized DE. And that character is what made me want to support that company.

[queen wedge]

I saw a gold flower and that I get everything from the previous tiers and got the big one

[queen wedge]

I like the community projects and that tennogen gives money to artists

[wooden grotto]

i get it lol i basically did the same

[mellow widget]

Now, things changed. Or they could change.
DE isn't small anymore.
They are still fair to their customers but there have been some... questionable outliers lately (i.e. Frost and Mag Heirloom).

[queen wedge]

Tbh my fav package was the green one

Armor looks sick

[mellow widget]

Oh yeah the bulk of my spendings probably went to TennoGen because I liked the idea of supporting independent creators

[queen wedge]

Next best is the wyld, cool helmet

[mellow widget]

And tbh I can respect this a LOT more than what some other people have been spouting here

You know your story is a little dumb but at least youre honest in admitting that it was primarily about the personal value this product had to you

I had a debate with a founder here yesterday who justified flexing their founders title anywhere possible by saying it would make them appear as a beacon of knowledge to future players

And they then started to just straight up shame people for being poor...

[queen wedge]

Wait u get a founder title in game too?

[calm niche]

To me, personally, the Founders pack was worth every penny.

I liked Warframe a lot despite it being a game type that I do not usually like. Fast-phased action shooters were so low on the list; and add space ninja to that and in any normal scenario it would just have been a "nah, pass." But somehow I got stuck anyways, and I've happily spent quite a bit of money in it.

When Soulframe was announced, I knew I wanted to support DE from as early on as I possibly could; and I would have grabbed the Founders pack even if it offered nothing but arcs in return.

Now, unpacking the Founder's pack:

• I think it is perfectly reasonable, and even expected, that the pacts and the weapons should be obtainable by non-founders.
• I am slightly disappointed at the other cosmetics being available (armor + sparrows) at a later date. I think that they founder armor is.... Okay to allow people to achieve ingame... But when it comes to smaller things like the Guide (sparrow) skins, then I wish they'd kept it unique, though it is not a make-or-break point for me.

One of the reason I bought quite a few Prime Access packs for Warframe was for their limited edition value. If SF is not going to walk the same path, then I guess my wallet is going to thank me in the long run. 😅

[modest raptor]

i think founders need something to show they supported early but it has to not have stats to it pure cosmetic stuff be it a founders armor set mount guide just something that is exclusive
i get de dosnt want fomo but it happened with prime garden plots and thew madness that followed and with the prelude honors but when people spend so much for a game so early on it should come with something just for them.... come on most the playerbase are founders and it prob stay open for half a year and those that want it will get it

[deep salmon]

I just wish we could plant the flowers in our Nightfold.

I don't care about the Gardens, I'm never going to visit it. But I'd like a cosmetic representation in the place I'm always going to frequent.

[rancid aspen]

I would not recommend a friend to buy any of the packs at the moment unless they strictly wanted early access to the wyld pacts (which even then, 30 dollars is a big ask for something that is literally a reskin, which isnt even exclusive)

None of the armors look good on masc models, which is getting fixed, but its disappointing that they didnt do this before releasing these. Its like they forgot.

yes it is support tiers, but even support tiers should be giving something worthwhile in return. Patreon and the like give either early access to content or exclusive content. Crowd funding always has rewards that are intended to be worth the investment, such as literally getting the product that would retail at 30 dollars if you spent 30 dollars.

Its an ok deal for the premium currency but theres nothing to really use the premium currency on yet

Im not sure if new players are also getting the free premium currency for slots, but if they are, they have enough slots to get every pact and multiple of every weapon type (they dont have enough of a difference to be worth collecting all weapons, and there are even direct upgrades in the game, the whole rarity system)

The armors being stat armors instead of just cosmetics was weird to me. They clearly gave the cosmetic converters in the packs specifically so you could convert your new armor into cosmetics.

The stats arent even good; they'd be busted for a beginer and like, kinda stinker for anyone who has done any amnt of armor farming progression.

if these armors (weapons too) are intended to be hard to get when they do get added f2p, why not make them actually compete with the better armors (and weapons) ?

the weapons too, they are intended for beginners because they have no innate stat requirement to prevent the reduced damage, but they are scaled to like mid-end game

Getting off topic at this point but armors are gonna need to stop getting added unless they want to add like 3 new rarities eventually; there arent enough unique armor stats, or encounters for the specific resistances, for there to be any diversity in the armors at all

When they were purely cosmetic, sure add as many as you want, but as of rn they arent even cosmetic unless you pay for it, so adding more feels like just begging for money, or it will power creep the hell out of this game.

Nobody gonna read all this yap im just gonna stop before i start pissing myself off 💀

[crystal owl]

I feel like. Whether it's priced correctly or whether it ethical to have this founders pack. Comes partly down to trust aswell. Do you trust DE enough to pay the amount that they are asking.

For me personally. I do trust DE enough to pay for it. Sure DE hasn't always been perfect. But for me they haven't done anything to show me that that trust is misplaced.

If it where a different company that was offering this. I could very have had a very different opinion.

[mellow widget]

Yeah I think this is the most reasonable take though I kind of wish the pack did not even include the armors and weapons

I got paragon founders yesterday and if weapons and armors are implemented in a similar way on full release people will (rightfully) riot.
I already played a lot of Soulframe before I bought founders and in that time my SIrin pact grew special to me and the few weapons I had and liked had meaning. Paragon Founders basically just throws some of the best equipment in the game right now into your lap. That is not only taking away a lot of the "magic" I felt with discovering a new world it is also something we in the trade call "Pay2Win".

Of course, if this stuff becomes available through gameplay later its different but right now it has that sour Pay2Win taste

[mellow widget]

Oh yeah I dont even know what the difference between regular and Wyld pacts is supposed to be. Right now they have more arts capacity but I was told they aren't supposed to

So it seems all that changes is the name of the pact... ?

[golden socket]

Which on the purchase page, it does list all the gameplay features of the founder packs (the wylds equipment) as being obtainable through normal gameplay in the future. It doesn't specify about the cosmetics, and the paragon sword is still a trade item.

[golden socket]

It also has a presently bugged stat boost when you absorb the respective smite soul. it's supposed to boost your stat by 10, but right now sets the stat to 10 instead.

[rancid aspen]

It has different vfx on the skills

The most obvious to me is the butterfly skill

[mellow widget]

The stats got buffed. Oscelda cuirass armor has 2 PDEF and 9 MDEF rn. For comparison, Mendicant King has 9 PDEF and 2 MDEF

[rancid aspen]

well mendicant king is also not that great, the orengal set has a higher stat total

[mellow widget]

But yeah I do hope they rework the moonthread system to be a "magic wardrobe" of some sorts. Its a concept from Elsword, another game I played like.. 15 years ago as a child.
Basically, you pay once to include a piece of armor into this magic wardrobe and once its in there you can apply it for free onto every other look. But it becomes untradeable (which isn't a problem in Soulframe ofc)

[rancid aspen]

and you can get arbearer's set at a similar account progression

[lean palm]

that is how moonthread works

[golden socket]

Mixed sets are better, as individual pieces of each set have different levels.

[rancid aspen]

with objectively better stats

[golden socket]

That's how it is after the rework

[mellow widget]

Oooooh

[lean palm]

you use it on a piece of gear once and you can always use that look

[mellow widget]

I haven't engaged with Moonthreads once because I thought bestitching is a one time thing and you would have to pay every time thats cool

[lean palm]

that would be crazy insane to make people keep paying over and over again lol

to use the same piece of armor over top other armors

[golden socket]

But orengal chest is the prime piece of the set, if you want the highest total stat distribution (for something like bromius's 1), it's arbearer helm, orengal/mockery top, and king pants.

[golden socket]

that's how it was when it first showed up, before people said "yeah no," and they changed it to how it is now,

[lean palm]

yea i know, and i believe they retroactively applied it as well

when they fixed it

but back then it was just play money since no one spent actual money pre-founders soo still experimental

[mellow widget]

Yesss 😂

In that case I take my critique of the moonthread system back

This is very reasonable ofc

[rancid aspen]

Im saying that there are armors that are relatively easy to get which have better stats than the ones from the founders packs, when, in their explanation of how these items will be obtained, they aimed for it to be a longer grind to get the wyld set items.

If its harder to get the wyld set, and none of the items are even good relative to the other stuff, why not just have it be exclusive cosmetics instead of thrusting mid-high tier gear on a new player and/or making an abysmal grind for mediocre items

[mellow widget]

And it also assuages some of my worries about DE loosing some of that fairness as a game dev they are known for

[rancid aspen]

We will also get better armor with new content updates because there is only so much DE can do with a 3 stat statline

[mellow widget]

Yeah I think armors will become a lot more intricate on full release

[lean palm]

I think its hard to critique any armor set right now -- i have to imagine they have a modding type of system in store or something that would make certain armors even if they dont have the best stats more worth it, but well have to see what they have in store in terms of armor customization -- if they got that way

otherwise the game becomes--- wear the best combination of armor stats and all other gear is now cosmetic

[mellow widget]

Also the amount of Moonthread you are getting in relation to how much it costs to bestitch is.. quite generous

[lean palm]

as far as -- Is Founders worth it --- for me yes, 1) it supports DE and 2) you get the value in premium currency alone which is worth it for pact slots/weapon slots if you are a collector the Armor, pacts, and weapons early is just a bonus

[rancid aspen]

well founders get bonus moonthread and you DO have 9 armor pieces that you were given

[golden socket]

I mean, likely they get (presently unconfirmed if, or if not) exclusive(?) cosmetics in addition to the wyld armors and stuff, there hasn't been a thing about the sparrows, or the glyphs or the color palettes, or the paragon talisman (specifically) being an item shared. In addition to the flowers that likely won't be given out to others.

[lean palm]

As far as the "grind" goes they said that for the Wyld Pacts.... I don't recall them saying at all as to how we would grind the related armor sets

[golden socket]

They've specified the Wyld talismans being shared, but the paragon itself is a statstical dupe of the Triune talisman so it reasons that could be held back as exclusive cosmetic.

[rancid aspen]

Im thinking about the, for lack of a better word, showeyness of those items relative to the prime access goods that DE gives to their warframe players.

Sparrow only pops up when you press G or emote, and when it does you can barely see it.

Glyphs dont work properly in the trees, but when they do, thats the only spot you'll see it

Color palettes arent even noticeably different on a vast majority of items because the colors in this game are much less vibrant than warframe (which is GOOD for the theme)

[lean palm]

The Sparrow also shows up sitting on your shoulder outside of pressing G or emoting

[rancid aspen]

If you stand still for a while yeah

Half the time i cant tell the difference between the purple colors and the red colors on some of these armor channels

its like really nothing special to get extra colors

[golden socket]

you sure it's not the armor you're using, since some armors are funky. Others are pretty vibrant.

[rancid aspen]

I know its the armor that gets used, thats why i said its on a majority of items not all items

some of them have vibrant color channels but most of them do not