#the courage problem got worse

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

old tree
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I am very, very confused about what the intent was with the changes to virtue scaling on the starting pacts. The effects of spirit and grace are weaker across the board. All three pacts now scale best with courage, and all three can be built in almost exactly the same way, with the exception of Oscelda not really needing sympathy. I sincerely hope this is a bug.

I have not yet gotten through testing the other pacts, so I cannot yet offer an opinion on how virtues affect them, but when it comes to the three starting pacts, weapon attunement is the only reason to have points in anything other than courage. Base values for duration and range are adequate for almost any situation, and the value gained through adding more spirit or grace simply do not compare to the value gained through adding more courage.

I really like the concept of strength, duration, and range for courage, spirit, and grace. We know from Warframe that these three attributes can work well for ability scaling, but we need that scaling to actually matter in gameplay. If I need to compare two clips side by side to be able to see the difference between range at minimum virtue versus range at maximum virtue on a max rank envoy, then something is not right.

I really hope this is a bug, that somewhere a decimal is out of place, and a hotfix adjusts it soon. This system has a ton of potential. Please don't make me bless my starling with courage. [edited for typos]

vivid wadi
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+1

queen ginkgo
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I agree, at this point I am going full courage on almost everything and it just works, dare I say, feels like everything is built around courage, same way the majority of warframe builds just stack strength.

near holly
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I think the current virtue system is fundamentally flawed in the long term, in multiple ways

Eventually we will have so much life that playing the game with new people will make us gods and essentially playing a different instance to them

Also, despite joineries, I think strength, duration and range are simply not the right choices for virtues

Courage should be strength
Spirit should be duration
Grace should be attack speed or something else utilitarian

Range is not needed in a game like this in any capacity

magic scroll
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+1

slow onyx
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+1,000,000,000,000,000,000 The stat priority being Weapon attunement max>Courage>Spirit>Grace for EVERY build makes build crafting and optimizing each individual pact pointless.

slow onyx
jaunty wyvern
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+1 the scaling is all out of wack and for every pact I have tested Courage is the best and just use damage abilities or heal abilities.

This is part of a bigger problem of damage being all out of wack in the game in general. From both the player and the enemies.

fluid elk
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+1 I kinda agree with what MrJackabin said, honestly. Except for the life part.

frigid walrus
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They hand out virtue points like candy. Pacts can give you up to 10 in all three, (30 total) and we have talismans that grant +3 in all three (9 total). Fables have given them (+2 so far). And of course our envoy rank directly gives us more points. My Oscelda build is maxed (both wyld and normal) and I'm at 35/20/20 at ER15. I can throw a lot of weapons onto this build without caring what they even are, and they'll handle fine, some of them will even be at or near their virtue caps.
Couple that with the way some weapons are capping out their arts points already, and I'm starting to wonder what they expect to drive build diversity in this game if we're supposed to just max everything off?

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(side note for anyone who doesn't know yet: the pact points in wild pacts stack on points from their normal version, so you'll have 60 points total to spend in your pact tree when you max out both)

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Most of our Wyld pacts will look like this, roughly, when we finish leveling them up:

image.png
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Even without courage being the de-facto best virtue, we're going to reach a point soon where we can just have high values of all of them. That's basically what I'm trying to say.

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I guess having courage as BIS virtue makes this worse, because you could drop spending in spirit or grace (or both) to max out the rest of the tree.

limber wave
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Courage should only scale damage in a Courage aligned pact that is focused on combat.

old tree
frigid walrus
# old tree Yeah, at first I liked how your upgrades stacked, but now... I have to wonder if...

They tried to avoid just putting the warframe modding system in their new game, which I can understand and applaud.
So instead, they put in their operator intrinsic tree system, which is basically completely stagnant, and is largely the most boring system in warframe.

The totem/rune system, is just a slightly modified warframe modding system with more specialized slots and fewer of them. It's interesting to a point, but boring because it's less flexible than the original modding system from wf.

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I get that they're trying to avoid just making oldtimey warframe, but that's what this is, and they need to accept that.

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They've kept too many other things to not use the solutions they developed for over a decade now alongside those other systems.

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Especially since their development cycle will likely also include churning out weapons and pacts forever.

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They need systems that allow flexibility and horizontal power, like WF's modding system, rather than vertical ones like most skill trees.

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If they don't, and instead just add-on to existing trees infinitely, then get ready for some serious power creep.

rose finch
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I do agree with OP though, courage being power strength for everyone is not a good idea, Dota 2's approach where your main stat is what determines your damage is the way to go. I think Courage should be given some sort of defensive stat like damage reduction or smth

old tree
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I could see an argument for grace being CDR instead of range. I do not think attack speed is a good idea, as attack speed is a big part of how different grip types are balanced.

rancid stone
rose finch
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Yeah in dota, strength gives stuff like HP for everyone but damage for strength heroes, dexterity gives attack speed, intelligence gives mana, etc

fast tinsel
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+1

fluid elk
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Please, no CDR for Grace. Pacts are already pretty spammy — I don’t want to end up with a skill that has a 1-second cooldown.

If they balance around that, fine, but as things are now, it’s a big no from me.

sturdy eagle
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Grace as CDR would make it another version of damage scaling. Courage being straight damage number. Spirit would increase duration and number of damage ticks. Grace decrease cooldown making you cast more often increasing damage.

But like ExoticPanda said, it makes DE now have to worry about balancing how that scales.

zenith junco
old tree
zenith junco
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Straight up

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Copied

old tree
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at the moment, weapon attunement is the only reason to put points in anything other than courage for the three starting pacts

zenith junco
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Does this affect also the balls pact and the wolves?

old tree
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I have not tested other pacts yet, so I'm not sure

zenith junco
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K

surreal wolf
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what if courage was changed to something other than damage scaling

zenith junco
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So my spear doing absorb amounts of danage is what has beijg making me feel powerful and not spirit beikg any use v:

zenith junco
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Damage scaling must exist trough stats

rancid stone
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hb the idea that ability power scales similarly to weapon attn?

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so it keeps damage scaling, but also allows other stat build to feel useful

zenith junco
old tree
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It would be kind of interesting if your courage ability scaled off courage, spirit ability scaled off spirit, grace ability scaled off grace.

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Tho tbh I'd still run a full courage tethren.

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But there would at least be more interesting choices across the board.

vivid wadi
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tru

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tbh there isnt a winning way to do it atm that i can think of

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not without a lot of retooling

sturdy eagle
light fox
zenith junco
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So with courage investment vs spirit I got a rank 8 shield doing half as much danage as a rank 18 spirit spear when I was spirit investment instead

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358 damage vs over 600

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But also rank 8 vs 18

hexed thistle
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i think this is also a double whammy regarding the new armor system, it makes anything that doesnt do bulk hits kinda worthless so dumping everything into courage helps meet those breakpoints

zenith junco
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Yeah thats why I had to use the spear I used on spirit oscelda

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To brute force trough the armor during the stun

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Im getting to areas where the boss hp are grey and only heavy attacks even dent enemies armor

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And since the spear scaled with spirit i just went full spirit thinking adding duration to her kit was great

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But like 0.13 second duration per poikt is underwhelming

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This makes me want to try other things

haughty isle
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+1

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felt bad realizing that all my pacts were working better with all in courage

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and that i would need to bless my weapons

glossy wigeon
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+1

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its funny how mora's hand, the pact from the courage faction that has +5 courage base is like the only pact that doesnt scale with it

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or with anything other than spirit for one single ability

earnest canyon
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+1 Completely agree, they need to rework virtues, account level and skill trees (we shouldn't be able to max everything, even with a wyld pact), there is way too much powercreep already (people saying the game is too hard are just impatient because once you get to a certain point you can solo most content easily) and build diversity is very limited. I really hope they do something about those gamebreaking issues.

oak fiber
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What about Oscelda?

earnest canyon
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Another problem is that abilities don't scale with Grace and Spirit or have a very generous range and duration by default... so what is the objective?

trail gale
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Because of blessed joineries and ability damage scaling off courage, there's little/no reason to spend points elsewhere. Courage has become the only stat that matters.

left estuary
halcyon steppe
hexed hill
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+1 I've leveled oscelda, orengall, and jarren rood so far and they've all felt best with courage just because the other virtues seem to do almost nothing

digital lion
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saw the youtube. yeah rework needed maybe more general buffs maybe not connected to pacts a little skill tree first you put points in then yeah
courage health and weapon attack damage .... if they made gear have a level of weight to them where your slower the heavier you are the slower could help withj that too
grace help with attack and movement speed and help with stealth eventually sure there is so much more
spirt decent cooldowns on powers maybe even power strength as just the start

we can expand on it haha

clear wolf
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+1

wraith sparrow
torpid lance
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+1

surreal wolf
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if de wanted to keep courage as ability damage I think they would have to increase the effectiveness of spirit and grace

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so like if spirit gave noticably more duration than courage gives damage

hallow mist
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I said this same thing on reddit and got told I was the problem for trying to build for strength.

Like Hello? clearly it's a problem when the single grace class we have is better off swapping all their shit to courage?

surreal wolf
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itd be like if every warframe wanted ability strength and range and duration gave extremely small bonuses

hallow mist
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Except worse since the pacts abilities don't always benefit from the stat they chase.

They change sirins 2 to be a knock back arrow or an arrow that groups enemies? Suddenly it's great cause all that range is huge

But when the grace class wants courage something is wrong lmao

naive frigate
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Just a simple idea:
-> change Courage to either Health or Durability.
(Duration/Range from Oscelda/Sirin are not directly damage related and besides it would fit the meaning of the word courage much better)
We would have to focus way more on weapon-attunement and at the same time abilities would become more of a tactical utility (which they should be) instead of raw damage addition.
Apart of that I really approve of the idea that different pacts should scale with their related virtue (in this case make Garren Rood +5 Grace so we have at least one more besides Wyld-/Sirin).

covert yoke
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Garren Rood actually used to provide a bonus to Grace and it’s weapons were attuned to Grace too. I would like for them to be reverted to fit the already established world-building as well as offer more diversity, especially within the Omen Beast Pacts specifically.

More importantly I’m in favour of decoupling Virtues from Arcanic stats altogether. Because Pacts are less versatile and overall reigned in compared to a Warframe there will always be minimal build variety within a specific Pact. Oscelda is the most well-balanced Pact in my opinion and an Oscelda user will always be interested in petrifying, healing, and exploiting stagger.

Compared to Rhino who may specialise in high Iron Skin numbers and selfish Roar buffs by sacrificing range for strength, moderate Iron Skin numbers, a less powerful Roar but one that can benefit allies in addition to Stomp crowd control with a better balance of stats, or locking down entire tiles by sacrificing ability strength for maximum range.

Having Arcanic Stats isn’t actually promoting build variety, it’s just linear progression for Courage specifically which is a problem. I propose tying Courage, Spirit, and Grace to Physical, Magick, and Stagger defense - which is a theme already present in game. I’d be perfectly content with other attributes only they need to be equally as desirable else we’ll find ourselves in the exact same situation.

tawdry rapids
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+1 to the general vibe; I think part of the problem is that there are too few tie-ins into other aspects of the player character & stats for a system to have this little effect on just the abilities, the poor balance right now just makes it stand out even more. Compare to the traditional STR/INT/DEX of many ARPGs, where attribute requirements can create thresholds people want to reach outside of just stacking a stat for scaling, or ability/weapon/armour choices that do not scale well with attributes, but has other benefits which can be worthwhile to invest into, such as freeing up the opportunity cost of investing into attributes for the requirement.

slow onyx
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I've seen suggestion to make each ability scale with theor respective stat like courage being for the 1 ability spirit being for the 2 ability and grace being for the 3 ability. This would effectively open up at the very least 3 builds for each pact and make stat distribution more of a playstyle choice than a power choice.

wraith sparrow
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like WAY WAY back

rancid stone
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is that why the ability colours are also rgb :o

wraith sparrow
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yeap

zenith junco
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Having my stuff properly scale with spirit on oscelda would be great

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I can easily stack up to 36 points of spirit

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So if it scaled my damage and also my duration it would be fffkikg awsome

fathom olive
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+1 to OP. Scaling needed work, but this feels like a backward step.

zenith junco
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I can always use blessed joineries to force a spirit attuned weapon into existence

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@old tree sorry for the ping but does courage increase the damage MULTIPLIER...not the base damage of osceldas stun

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Like does it make the next hit from the weapon to 2x..3x ?x damage scale at all

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Or is it just the base damage gets +40

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?

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This is important information