Mid Season Balance Patch

[burnt elm]

Those need nerfs

[plain gust]

the way I see it all strats are viable rn

[merry zephyr]

cause I definitely agree about the lattice anxiety point

[echo hawk]

Give my Rosa some attack stat plz

[honest cairn]

I'm not gonna be debating on this topic to avoid scrutiny and hate from the community though. I'm exhausted. Thanks for understanding. I've done enough thinking behind the scenes to have faith in the ideas I've pushed.

[plain gust]

it's just too snowbally when one strat works

[wet pier]

right now yes, but if you tune down overall damage, it'll put those units more in line

and then you can buff those weaker units in the balance adjustment

[merry zephyr]

all good g

[honest cairn]

I hope the developers listen is all

we'll see.

[burnt elm]

that’s fair yea

[echo hawk]

Send us their names c

[merry zephyr]

I will still die on the kazuyo hill though. That's the one unit I believe needs to be addressed directly

kazuyo S1 is not ok

[surreal cove]

i find it so weird.. one second, people are complaining the meta is slow and a snoozefest. the next.. its too much damagae, too overtuned, CC too strong into eff makes CC too inconsistent.... EVERYTHING too overtuned... we will never make everyone happy..

[burnt elm]

kazuya and liliam and lily imo

[honest cairn]

agreed SR units can be buffed/nerfed since they don't twist emotions and investments much

[echo hawk]

Literally evil is defined as Kaz

[burnt elm]

obol you can get less use with more bulwarks

[plain gust]

even if obol lands his stuns he goes in cd when he can't control anymore

[burnt elm]

liliam has a ridonkulous overloaded kit

[merry zephyr]

main thing that makes obol so OP in addition to his multihit stun, is the fact that he has a strip in his kit

[plain gust]

but that demon kaz just keep going

[merry zephyr]

bulwark is arguably NOT effective against obol

[thick thunder]

liliam is like 3 SSRs combined into 1 xD

[wet pier]

liliam isnt as broken as people think now for bruiser gameplay

[burnt elm]

she covers all her weaknesses with certain shells

[solar lintel]

Best solution, but probably the most work, is likely a pvp version of a skill or effect or shell or whatever it may be. Just to avoid angering people over pve nerfs for no reason except cuz people are angy in arena.

[wet pier]

lily absolutely destroys liliam

[plain gust]

viper also hurts her

[burnt elm]

and yet, people just draft them together and you have little counterplay

[plain gust]

u can just kill her

[wet pier]

yes but the only way to get them together is to pick them 1,2 as second pick

and then that has counterplay

[burnt elm]

im an unlucky f2p player, it’s miserable trying to counter draft premium unit spam

They dont have proper non-premium counters is the issue

[wet pier]

you give up both the top tier healers for it for example

[merry zephyr]

same premium unit spam makes the floor for pvp extremely high

[plain gust]

viper

[surreal cove]

viper, holden

rahu

[merry zephyr]

especially once people play against you and start last picking LDs that you cannot contest in draft

[surreal cove]

sania

[plain gust]

but lily is too oppressive in bruiser mirror tbh

[merry zephyr]

which is another reason why we need streamer mode

[versed tapir]

Did you recently make a new account or something? I'm f2p as well, but was still able to pity both the LD units

[plain gust]

they just cycle aorund u

[merry zephyr]

we should be able to turn off our names during draft so we don't get target banned and picked

[plain gust]

and all bruiser s1 are op af

[wet pier]

mostly cuz damage is so high yeah

[surreal cove]

im f2p, and was able to spend 180 on liliam banner... and still got yeli etc

[merry zephyr]

draft against the game, not the player

[burnt elm]

you pitied 6+ ld units? lmao

[wet pier]

i dont even use s3 on lily alot of the time lol

[surreal cove]

the game gives enough currency for the rate of release

[wet pier]

its a waste XD

[plain gust]

same

[burnt elm]

you dont get that many ld summoms f2p

[surreal cove]

same

[surreal cove]

i just told u, i spent 180 on liliam.....

[versed tapir]

I said both the LD units, where did 6+ come from

[surreal cove]

only ld im missing is mio

and i over spent on liliam banner for 1 dupe

[surreal cove]

instead of getting lattice from summon shop, go for ld pulls

if f2p

[echo hawk]

5 a month

[magic cloak]

i’m f2p pretty much

and i have all lds

except doki

massiah has 2 dupes

hein 1 dupe

sania 2 dupes

[plain gust]

also f2p and only messing yeli

cuz I chose to skip her

[wet pier]

im whale and im missing heinrich

main reason why i cant play cc/cleave effectively and am turn 2 cuck

[magic cloak]

Even though c said he told dev team

best believe eaint shit gonna happen

that guy is the king of empty words and false hope

[plain gust]

I tried using hein in t2 with bb build

he still just dies to bruisers

[burnt elm]

i get them, just unlucky is all

[wet pier]

pretty much

if your base hp isnt 15k+ or your base def isnt 900+ (or a mixture of the two)

[burnt elm]

and a lot of people are unlucky

[wet pier]

u just get 2-3 shot by everything

[burnt elm]

there should be unlucky-based counters

[surreal cove]

I got 2 dupes in hein... but don't wanna lattice his s3 if I can't get him 325 speed atlrast

[burnt elm]

doesnt make sense if the only viable counters are timegated premium units

[wet pier]

hein doesnt need to be that fast

you only really pick him in banprotect vs turn 2 players

[plain gust]

yeah I really wanted to play this immortal bb meta everyone is complaining about

[wet pier]

not really when speed contesting

[surreal cove]

True. But I have a habit of forcing units just to use them sometimes.. I had same issue in e7

[merry zephyr]

I think the main issue with dmg being too high and too bursty is the fact that it makes HP and Def fake stats

HP and Def stacking means so little in the current ecosystem

[burnt elm]

core gameplay issue imo

[neon mesa]

Pee pee poo poo

[burnt elm]

the numbers for hp/def are SUPER low

[plain gust]

yeah it's core

cuz even the bruisers are bursting

[burnt elm]

it was a weird transition coming from Summoner’s war where each roll is 4-8%

[plain gust]

it's not just cleavers

[neon mesa]

Yeah man my rahu hits for 20k+

[merry zephyr]

guildmates be like

[surreal cove]

It gonna be hard to balance single target damage without gutting cleave if we not doing unit specific nerfs

[neon mesa]

Why my bruiser doing that

[burnt elm]

here, i barely see any 20% subs anywhere

[plain gust]

rahu is a fking demon

[wet pier]

while not being his turn

[fiery void]

Can we just agree audacity cant read and move on?

[burnt elm]

rahu my goat

[neon mesa]

Truuuuuueeeee

[burnt elm]

cachi the goat + rahu

besties for life

[wet pier]

i built rahu and went from masters to mythic insta with 90+% w/r

its funny because hes an answer to holden first pick

[surreal cove]

I'm blind

[merry zephyr]

I cower in fear at 5/5/5 rahus

[wet pier]

if they end up going bruiser playstyle

[burnt elm]

what shell? been trying mine on amber

[wet pier]

you just ban protect him and ban holden and u win

[merry zephyr]

agreed

[wet pier]

artisan

[merry zephyr]

x2

[burnt elm]

then sniping highest damage dealers

[plain gust]

perma banned

[wet pier]

on rahu's artisan proc you just giga nuke everything

[plain gust]

literally u just lose into that lmao

[fiery void]

The issue is cleave damage is too damn high, so BB is mandatory. My suggestion (and it may not even be correct) is to tie anti-cleave mechanics to units so it becomes a draft issue

[wet pier]

i went into the same guy 5 times in a row

and the draft evolved into fp rahu lol

[burnt elm]

when i have rahu , my winrate immediately doubles

[wet pier]

for the last 2 games

[burnt elm]

he’s cracked. 4/4/4 atm

[surreal cove]

My statement is very relevant considering c stated they don't want to do unit specific nerfs, and will use etharena buff to balance pvp..

[merry zephyr]

games are so swingy atm too

it doesn't matter if you get their entire team to 1 hp

[fiery void]

Add more passives/skills that are anti-cleave

[merry zephyr]

if they're not dead, nothing matters

[wet pier]

i mean to be fair there isnt really a unit that is just so over tuned atm

everything is overtuned with some units being stronger

[fiery void]

I suggested helkid having a 40% dmg mitigation when shield is up, which can be stripped or broken

But its not so braindead that u can auto-draft such a skill into any comp

[plain gust]

yeah I think it's mostly fine tbh

[merry zephyr]

I think the current issues are mostly related to core game issues

[plain gust]

it's just too snowbally

[merry zephyr]

not unit specific issues

[wet pier]

the biggest reason why holden is fp everygame is mostly because he fits into every playstyle

[plain gust]

and feels bad when ure getting stomped

[wet pier]

which is fixed by having more units released into the game

honestly i tihnk there are sleeper units that are very strong but

just people havent invested into them

like celince

i could see her being very strong if you max her

[fiery void]

Do buffs then. Add more units with anti-cleave or buff current units with anti-cleave mechanics, but make it conditional or tie it to long cooldowns

[merry zephyr]

also new units and a wider roster doesn't even really fix things. If we have 0 lattices and they continue to release characters at the speed they are, we can't build any of them

theoretically it does

[fiery void]

Ffs stop clinging onto BB. It's so boring to play

[uneven summit]

latticeeconomyentersthechat

[plain gust]

pretty much

[merry zephyr]

but the resource economy turns off that balance lever that the devs could pull

[wet pier]

nah i thought that too but i think you can catch up actually

its just that most of the 'pve units' cant be used in pvp

especially in this meta

[merry zephyr]

I'm feeling THIS especially hard

[wet pier]

if i reset yeli and massiah (which i dont use in pve or pvp anymore) i ccould have all my bruisers built with change leftover

[merry zephyr]

in my current situation, it really feels impossible to catch up

[magic cloak]

a doki doki banner would be nice

[wet pier]

like if you look at bread, he full invested into pvp units mostly even last season

[plain gust]

that would reqiure a reset event tho

[magic cloak]

pve isn’t hard though

lmao

[merry zephyr]

I was forced to build PvE only units, and now I'm perma behind

[fiery void]

The real big brain play

PVE wasnt the problem

[wet pier]

pve isnt hard, but because of how 2x works in this game

[merry zephyr]

I'm building the baseline, fundamental characters needed in this meta

[wet pier]

its actually better in the long run to invest into semi-fast teams at least

[fiery void]

Not with x4 event though

[merry zephyr]

while other people are advancing into niche picks and counter draft units

[burnt elm]

Bruisers final form is semi-fast mixed with cc

[wet pier]

for the '4x' event for example if you have really fast teams, you can now start max capping 10 days beforehand

[fiery void]

Safe teams might be better in the long run

[wet pier]

nah its same for 4x, i'm gonna start capping 10-15 days before

[merry zephyr]

wait how does 2x event change anything?

[wet pier]

next 2x is most likely first week of october

[magic cloak]

if you can’t clear every threshold in under a minute what are you doing

[wet pier]

you can stack more stam beforehand because you can burn through it all during 2x

[burnt elm]

you dont have to clear sub 1 minute tbh, since we’re all capped in stab per day

[merry zephyr]

but if you can't farm inferno that doesn't matter

[magic cloak]

we are deep into this game mfs gotta lock in

[fiery void]

Doubles the efficiency bcos the natural stamina regen isn't great anyway

[plain gust]

casual players are still struggling

[wet pier]

yea i mean for late game players investing into fast teams is still good long run

[magic cloak]

i can clear every inferno content in this game in under a minute

[merry zephyr]

the lattice investment required to farm inferno is extremely high if you're missing even 1-2 key units

[magic cloak]

duh

[wet pier]

yea i mean for tryhards <1min runs is standard

[merry zephyr]

and if you invest even a little into PvE it really feels like you're perma behind in pvp

[wet pier]

im going for 30s aurora run though

[plain gust]

it's not good we want more ppl in rta

[burnt elm]

its more than high, it’s ridiculous. Fully f2p, no lily/liliam/yeli/kloss. I clear everything

[fiery void]

Already stam capping for upcoming x4 event?

[burnt elm]

it is an absolute lame-o slog

[plain gust]

shouldn't gatekeep at farming stages

[magic cloak]

these devs don’t care

about anything

[wet pier]

yeah, i am

[burnt elm]

and you have to hard-invest into everything for every boss

[magic cloak]

devs are coke heads

no sense of direction

[wet pier]

nah thats pretty extreme

[magic cloak]

it’s true?

i can’t think of a single good thing

about this game

[thick thunder]

really hard to get coke in china tho

[magic cloak]

idek why i’m playing

[wet pier]

thats because ur bias at this point

[magic cloak]

i’m mad i gave these guys 100$

[burnt elm]

https://tenor.com/view/chud-chudjak-wojak-soyjak-marcvin5-gif-13903021270190271130

[magic cloak]

i should’ve given it to a homeless guy

[honest cairn]

another core issue of how this game was marketed. Unfortunately bc of how it’s marketed a lot of people rushed into pvp investments and the game isn’t forgiving enough to support it :/ It’s a PvE game firsthand and pvp is risky to invest into early otherwise u can get stuck at moments

[burnt elm]

doomposting omega syndrome

[fiery void]

Try other pvp gachas

[merry zephyr]

also now that I have tons of inferno gear and many more units, I could easily reset my Rosa and Khloros and even probably Yeli and still clear sub 1 min for all infernos. But no reset event means that I'm stuck at -18 lattice or more compared to other players

[fiery void]

You'll see why they're so bad

[merry zephyr]

due to not having Lily + diting

[honest cairn]

Core issues, marketing issues. Lots of stuff contribute

[magic cloak]

false promises 😉

[merry zephyr]

I have so many units I want to build and so much theory crafted and things I want to try

[honest cairn]

but yeah trying my best to push this and ignoring the ppl hating

[merry zephyr]

but I cannot

[wet pier]

i openly voice what i think should be improved in the game, but i wont downplay the good changes they've made

[magic cloak]

setting high hopes 😉

[burnt elm]

I mean.. they started the game with a PvP tournament. This is a pvp game first and foremost

[plain gust]

no lily or doki is brutal tbh

[burnt elm]

they cranked pve up to 11 during launch for some reason

from beta, pve seemed fun/reasonable

[magic cloak]

We’ve also got something pretty special on the way guys 😁😁😁😁🙏🙏🙏

[burnt elm]

even just 10% over that would be ok

[trim terrace]

They quietly changed course somewhere between then and now and that was their biggest mistake by a mile

[plain gust]

c vs cc again

let's go

[wet pier]

being a cm here must be fkin hell man

i just block trolls and he's forced to monitor them

😂

[merry zephyr]

the thing is I didn't even rush in pvp. I pretty much ignored pvp and fully focused on clearing infero as fast as posisble while investing as little as possible. I got there, but missing key LD units forces you to overinvest lattices compared to other players. I have great gear and plenty of it compared to those who rushed PvP, but it doesn't matter. Lattices matter too much for characters, and I can barely build enough units to compete

[magic cloak]

Dang it wish I got to find out what the something special he had on the way was D:

[merry zephyr]

I'm stuck always playing catch up with the meta

[wet pier]

i mean if it makes u feel better

when game launches in asia, they are all catching up to you

[trim terrace]

That's really the mods job, CM should just be communicating with us and providing feedback to the devs

Mods really let a lot of garbage behavior fester

[wet pier]

if you're talking about lattice investment which I assume you are

[merry zephyr]

maybe a year from now this won't be an issue for me because I'll have a wide enough roster built and will be able to make due. But I don't want to wait a year to compete at a baseline level in the draft

[merry zephyr]

yeah

[merry zephyr]

it's going to be awful for them for sure

[wet pier]

ehh there's more info about what to invest in for them so it won't be as bad

[honest cairn]

It’s bc of continued harrassment and complaints of mod abuse etc. It’s not easy banning people who are toxic and hurt the community

[wet pier]

but you'll still be ahead for pvp

[plain gust]

I'm currently in diamond and most of my units are under latticed

[wet pier]

shit was crazy when the game launched in CN like 2 years after global release in epic seven, cn players were crying for like 500 molagora/lattice lol

[plain gust]

feels ok so far

rahu destroying at 1/1/1

[wet pier]

not everything needs to be maxed to be playable which is what i think alot of people think is the case

[merry zephyr]

oh god I cannot imagine how bad that would be. 2 years of catchup would be insane

[wet pier]

last season there were people in top 10 with 1/1/1 tiamat

[honest cairn]

but yeah gonna be cracking down on it more bc it’s passed a point where it ruins the community for others trying to have peaceful discussions and critiques

[echo hawk]

I won't use my lattice unless is 12/12 a character. Dont @ me

[trim terrace]

Eh disagree, I've run some large communities, if people know there's 0 tolerance they behave. People have been really awful in a lot of these threads and that culture has been allowed to develop

I've talked with some mods here about it, they feel really understaffed and cannot keep up with how much activity there is

[honest cairn]

yes

we’re gonna be more strict

[merry zephyr]

ty

[wet pier]

thank god

[honest cairn]

ppl are gonna make 40 alt accounts, start mod abuse agendas, smear campaigns, etc. but this environment can’t continue

[echo hawk]

🙏 purge general chat of the nonstop sinners 🤣

[plain gust]

yeah ppl just need to just give it a try with what they currently have

[merry zephyr]

the main cord has devolved to becoming very toxic

[plain gust]

but seems most are not bothering to try

[trim terrace]

I mentioned to fool setting these threads to slow mode will help a lot, very happy to see that happened

Existing threads don't get converted, that's why this one isn't, but once these older ones get replaced things will improve a lot under slow mode

[honest cairn]

it’s fine to be lenient during peaceful times, but when devs are making decisions we have no control of and people are angry and irrational… that behavior festers

[honest cairn]

yeah I changed it last week and was confused

[wet pier]

i honestly was surprised people were upset with the meta besides it being slow

cleave is just a damage check so if you are missing lattice on key units you cant really win ever

bruiser/standard is way more lenient on your stats

and more about drafting correctly

atleast until like top 100 where people know how to draft very well

[trim terrace]

Oh nice. Now we just wait for those to take over, or start turning it on here

I do suspect people will stay in the non slow mode threads bc they can go crazy there, but they'll at least function as containment zones

[echo hawk]

I think 90% of people think playing 10 matches a week is "experiencing" the meta

[magic cloak]

New packs patch notes hits different

[plain gust]

nah they just read from doomers here and on reddit

everymatch is 20 min long

[echo hawk]

That too. They just parrot what they hear

[plain gust]

with everything being unkilliable with bb lighthouse

when in reality lighthouse is actually rarely used atm

[magic cloak]

Is it possible to have 100% sub minute rengo runs

i’m at 80-90%

[echo hawk]

Why are you asking that here tho

[magic cloak]

if boss goes opposite element and inertia ur dps gg

[plain gust]

I'm still running viper sania

can't be bothered to upgrade

[burnt elm]

yes

[wet pier]

i use kazuyo liliam lily dinah

[magic cloak]

how though

[wet pier]

most consistent speed team ive seen so far/tried

[magic cloak]

if boss goes opposite element

he can one tap ur dps

new girls shield does nothing

[burnt elm]

most dont use new girl tbh

i saw a liliam, lily, kloss, cachi team that was consistent

[magic cloak]

i wonder what went on in ld hq

when they said they tested new characters in rengoktsu

😂

what a company man

https://tenor.com/view/sensational-gif-4975652

[uneven summit]

obv they tested with p5 full latticed

[magic cloak]

even then

her shield is terrible

[uneven summit]

disagree

if you have full invested in her

shes solos

[magic cloak]

rengo can. onetap ur dps on opposite element with shield on them

[uneven summit]

not if shes full invested

read

[magic cloak]

my guy

[uneven summit]

her p dupes

[magic cloak]

i have 5 lattice her

[magic cloak]

her dupes

will increase her shield

by like nothing

[wet pier]

just use this team, u only fail if kaz misses sleep

[uneven summit]

• double base hp% scaling

[magic cloak]

not double

10%

[uneven summit]

?

[dense moth]

can i abuse you instead? for stealing my right to buy red shadowprint and give module event i deserve my purple tofu

[magic cloak]

from dupes

i have lattice in her s3

and her shield

[wet pier]

and its 40s team

[burnt elm]

tested with lily

[magic cloak]

will not let ur dps live against opposite

[uneven summit]

ur clueless lol

[magic cloak]

even with lily

[magic cloak]

show me a video

[dense moth]

what is cc shitting about

[burnt elm]

again, a lot of these infernos are balanced assuming you have premium units

[magic cloak]

of ur dps surviving opposite element rengo attack

[dense moth]

oh

[burnt elm]

which is why they all need a nerf

[magic cloak]

unless it was changed

[uneven summit]

do you think I have her p5 555? XD

[dense moth]

yeah ninfo is ass but she still do what its supposed to do in rengo

[uneven summit]

obv no

[dense moth]

just require LILY

[magic cloak]

p5 doesn’t mean anything

all that matters is the lattice

[uneven summit]

XD

[magic cloak]

for the shield

lmao

[uneven summit]

clueless as I said

[magic cloak]

no

[dense moth]

p3 does

[magic cloak]

ur the clueloess lone

[uneven summit]

u prolly havent read her abilities at all

[dense moth]

have fun arguing cuties

[burnt elm]

why yall always gotta start being mean

just chillax

[burnt elm]

did you watch that recent code geass movie?

well , the most recent one

[dense moth]

which one

if its not related to main story no

i tend to wait a year or two before watching side stories

[magic cloak]

code geass is first anime i watched

tuff

[burnt elm]

Re;surrection

[dense moth]

yeah i did

[burnt elm]

was it good? gonna watch em this week

[dense moth]

was there any bad code geass movie?

so yeah its good. its always good

[burnt elm]

https://tenor.com/view/you-know-what-right-gif-24291739

[versed tapir]

How many of you play only bruisers or mainly bruisers in pvp?

[haughty crown]

[versed tapir]

Because when you play a cleave unit you'll likely see 1-2 lighthouse on healers

[merry zephyr]

I’ve given up focusing on RTA until last 10 days of season cause I just don’t have fun with RTA rn

Focusing purely on GvG for the time being

[merry lantern]

only option you've got when the game won't give you speed

[burnt elm]

what do you think about celince?

[versed tapir]

Yeah I was only responding to the person who said there're rarely any lighthouses

[merry lantern]

shit shield scaling and shit base hp is really annoying

[merry lantern]

they're right in the sense that a lot of shit is just on giga now

[merry zephyr]

I think she has a ton of potential in GvG especially

But requires a lot of lattices to be on par with other characters

Meaning it’s kind of a dead unit

[wet pier]

lighthouse is very bad in bruiser mirror

i see 0

because if u just ignore that unit (usually a healer) they do nothing

only unit i use it on now is tia

[versed tapir]

I'm talking about when you draft cleave

[wet pier]

it's same thing no?

people that play bruiser wont have lighthouse on their healers really

also to climb into high ranks as a 'cleave' player you need to have cc ready as well

[versed tapir]

Is there a streamer or youtuber who drafts cleave/cc all the way to mythic?

[wet pier]

lighthouse is legit the worst thing in the game vs cc

[burnt elm]

i already latticed her because i thought sleep functioned like other games here

[wet pier]

only building a box of cleave with no cc pivots will get you stuck

[burnt elm]

at the start of the game

my old habits betrayed me and now tryna shoehorn her everywhere lol

[versed tapir]

Yeah in the first season, I poured most of my resources into cleave and I had to fight like 90% lighthouses

I had no resources left for cc or bruisers

[wet pier]

season 0 yeah most people just spammed lighthouse

nowadays its all gigabyte

gigabyte + eff res healers

to counter cc

u can build kazuyo obol kraken as sr ccers and its enough

just ban protect obol/heinrich if you pivot to cc for the strip

[versed tapir]

Yeah that's what I've been doing so I can't really understand the hate to cc

It's the only way I can even climb if I don't want to play bruiser

[wet pier]

its probably cuz when u lose to cc it feels terrible

but its the weakest playstyle atm

[thick thunder]

really fun to get 100+ turn games x kazuyo obol lily

i just turn auto on and let the guy click away for 15min

[wet pier]

gigabyte interaction with cc makes cc not that good tbh

[thick thunder]

yeah, but if you put gigabyte into every single unit ur just way worse versus cleave right? (i know no one plays cleave at mythic but at diamond its still pretty common)

[wet pier]

nah gigabyte still good vs cleave

[versed tapir]

I understand, but then I'd be forced to play bruiser meta too and who would want to play a game with only bruisers in arena

[wet pier]

just play with what u have fun with

cleave/cc is viable

just go private profile if u play cc

[versed tapir]

I already have my profile private 👍

[wet pier]

and yeongeo streams he plays only cleave/cc

[versed tapir]

Alright thanks

But yeah cc is terrible to play against, but I'd rather have that than every comp using only bruisers

[burnt elm]

bruiser supremacy

[versed tapir]

I'd quit if this game was bruiser supremacy

[copper gorge]

with cc it's just casino gameplay x1000

pray u hit through all the eff res

also 1 side is basically doing nothing

and when they do get a turn better hope u dodged Lily's CD increase

[merry zephyr]

the Lily cooldown increase is usually what does me in

zero counterplay against it if it lands

really sucks

[burnt elm]

thats how most pvp gachas end up tbh

it’s a miracle sw ended up being as versatile as it is ngl

[burnt elm]

i think lily doesnt need cd increase

and liliam doesn’t need injury

[copper gorge]

not needing to religiously speed chase is just really nice for bruisers

[burnt elm]

if she’s truly anti cc

[copper gorge]

speed is still nice but not the end all be all

[burnt elm]

they tend to also have more build variety imo

[magic cloak]

good rolls

[copper gorge]

bruiser shells are also like much more varied

DPS ones are just u deal more burst DMG different ways

except like law

[granite valley]

I've read enough, buff Holden

[dense oyster]

yea let just hp bruiser run the game...its 100% better lol

its kind of funny that i try to land def break,use rev and have ninfo buff...but the hp bruiser dont even die

because BB

[burnt elm]

Well there’s only 1 hp bruiser tbh

The rest are def-based

[dense oyster]

yea but its not like they wont add more

[burnt elm]

and it’s not like other characters cant have injury?

she doesnt need it tho if her job is “nuke these squishy cc units”

[merry lantern]

Liliam will have to be tuned down in like 6 weeks or something

They fucked themselves by buffing her before the banner ended

[burnt elm]

if her job is “injury these bruisers” she needs something else removed from her kit

[copper gorge]

fr tho

buffing mid banner and then nerfing her once it ends

after going back on their no rta changes until end of season

not a good look

[merry lantern]

that was a good thing to go back on tbh

it was a dumb commitment that nobody asked for

[copper gorge]

fair

[merry lantern]

"no more sneak pve nerfs and 'bugfixes'"

"got it, balance only between seasons like you asked!"

fuck off!

[burnt elm]

also the “reset if we nerf” commitment

that’s backwards

Sometimes your investment takes a temporary L, that’s aight

[merry zephyr]

lol they've backed themselves into a corner that no one was telling them to go into

they're shadow boxing with themselves

[merry lantern]

I think they were trying really hard to save face

[merry zephyr]

fr

[merry lantern]

And had nobody to tell them/didn't care that GL doesn't care about or interact with face dynamics like their domestic playerbase would

[merry zephyr]

when all they needed to do was say "hey we're sorry here's 2 lattice in the mail"

we still have had zero apology rewards I believe

they ran an animus reset and x2 event based off backlash, but other than that I don't remember anything

very afraid to give us any resources

and toss us any bones

[dense oyster]

yea but injury is based on dmg right? so every injury character will still nuke the squisy unit

and why your solution is either bruiser or cc...you know you can just cleave her?

[burnt elm]

Not true

there’s a similar mechanic in other games

in the game i play, it’s often tanky bruisers, grinding out other bruisers or hp-based healers (like hitting sanias)

[dense oyster]

Oh so bb liliam?

[burnt elm]

mm no

but she can be used that way because that shouldnt be in her kit

it’d be more like, veronika or tiamat with hp damage and small injury ticks that add up

[merry lantern]

what, sw?

with destroy sets?

[dense oyster]

Only veronika hp based dmg on s2...like how many turn would you like then

[burnt elm]

destroy, blue karnal, some others

fire 2a cat was anti-skogul when that was popular in siege

[merry lantern]

blue karnal

i love when they don't get their own names

[burnt elm]

like 500 units lmao

[merry lantern]

yeah

he's blue Sagar to me

[burnt elm]

thats kinda the point, if youre destroying hp by 100% damage, you usually have some condition or limiter

not just “oh you just DO it regardless of what’s going on”

with some of the highest multipliers in the game and having ignore -res utility when following up

[dense oyster]

But you never can destroy 100% hp with liliam lol,even with def break,at most she do like 75% or less

And that is with her self attack buff

[burnt elm]

That’s not the same

she’s converting 100% damage into injury

just because she isn’t 100% killing everything doesnt mean she isnt converting it into injury

and again, she’s a self-buffing dps that ignores cc and punishes bruisers, and can be used in cleave

if she’s anti-bruiser, keep the injury, remove the stuns

if she’s anti-cc, remove the injury, but keep the stuns

etc etc

supposed to be. tradeoff to sit in your niche

this is like if lingluo increased her max hp every ult and on s1 she automatically removes 15% of her max hp from the target

and her s2 had a passive where she self-cleanses

[dense oyster]

Only reason she do injury is to keep bruiser in check,now we have limited option vs bruiser

Its either bruiser vs bruiser or you need massiah for cleave,if you take liliam away then who are you pick if you dont have bruiser ready for yourself?

And who use her in cleave...she kill nobody even with def break since they use bb,and if they have no bb other char can snipe them away

Like the trade off is she squisy,so you just kill her with with raw dmg,she is not that tanky.

[burnt elm]

yea, but the solution is to give that to other units

not to an unit with an already overloaded kit

you see what im saying

also, she’s technically tanker than kloss off of base stats too

((just barely tho))

she’s not that squishy on bloodbath either, while also buffing herself for two turns

[dense oyster]

Then let her have that until they nerf bruiser or give more unit to counter them...right now literally bruiser can just free pick 2 bruiser+2 healer and 1 counter pick

[burnt elm]

what im saying is it shoulda never happened to begin with

she was good enough before they juiced her up with Leibuz secret sauce

a lotta of their balancing choices have been super heavy-handed, unnecessarily so imo

[dense oyster]

Alright man right now cc unit is not really a problem,but its bruiser...only reason for her buff is because how stupid bruiser rn

If they still dont have answer with this stupid bruiser meta then they need to keep her there...100% injury is not a problem for any other comp except bruiser becsuse they die to her raw dmg anyway

[burnt elm]

bruiser isnt as big a problem as double healer keeping them alive

cc is still a huge gatekeep in lower ranks

with no ban-protect/pre-ban you’re just stuck eating lily + liliam + double cc + whatever nonsense

dokidoki, whoever whoever whoever

[dense oyster]

WDYM cc is huge gatekeep on low rlo...im playin on low elo and most pick are fckin bruiser

Cc can still be counter if you outspeed them

[burnt elm]

Most pick cc tbh

[dense oyster]

Not they arent

[haughty crown]

Good luck outspeeding them thought

[dense oyster]

We have set called bulwark too

[burnt elm]

Kazuya > lily > obol > whatever whatever

[merry lantern]

I had to message somebody today to build strippers if they were going to keep drafting Mio

[burnt elm]

yea.. bulwark the great liliam-stopper lol

[haughty crown]

Bulwark won't do anything if you have speed

[dense oyster]

Dokidoki with bulwark > ban obol

[burnt elm]

Did you just say you use dokidoki with bulwark to counter obols

[dense oyster]

i ban the obol

i pick the kazuyo...if they go first pick lily

[merry lantern]

I think he meant "and then"

[burnt elm]

you have a lily to steal from them

[dense oyster]

yea both of us have lily at this point on low elo

[burnt elm]

thats what im saying, if you don’t have premium ssrs to yoink from them, its just lily > kaz > obol > yadda yadda

[dense oyster]

if they first pick lily i go kazuyo and dokidoki

[dense oyster]

yea then its not CC problem....its owning unit problem

[burnt elm]

which comes back to being a cc problem lol

“you need to steal this premium unit first to disable cc, if you dont have it, sucks to suck ig” is basically what youre saying

[dense oyster]

both are problem if you dont have lily...if you cant outspeed you either get cc-ed or get cleaved

so does cleave a problem too then?

[burnt elm]

and im telling you that that situation enables oppressive cc comps without pre-ban/protects

[burnt elm]

now youre getting it lmao

[dense oyster]

there is hellkid for anti cc too

he is 127 base speed like lily

[haughty crown]

Lily is too strong compared to Hellkid

[burnt elm]

^

[dense oyster]

both CC and Cleaved are just unit problem...but they still need to think their pick

mean while bruiser just...2 bruiser/2 healer + 1 counter pick...you dont steal my bruiser? thats not problem again

[haughty crown]

Hellkid barrier relies on his ATK

[dense oyster]

then release more 127 base speed unit again

[haughty crown]

Even if he has 350 speed, his shield will be like 6k

[burnt elm]

^

[haughty crown]

Will disappear in 2 seconds and Lily will just make whole team play again

[dense oyster]

but anyway this is like a no conversation

[haughty crown]

It's just a matter of speed ngl

[dense oyster]

low elo rn have bunch of lily

because every time i do vs non-bruiser they will always pick lily if they are on first pick

[burnt elm]

bro you keep dancing around the point but we’re agreeing 😭

[dense oyster]

and the one who doesnt have it cant even contest speed with my tsukiyomi

yea its speed problem rather than CC imo

[burnt elm]

it’s a lily into op cc comp issue or a dokidoki into strong cc/dps or whatever

[dense oyster]

low elo is always a speed problem...if you out speed then you win,but now bruiser problem not because they can take turn-2 but how braindead they are vs cc or cleave

[burnt elm]

what you’re describing is that you are hard-unit locked from engaging into pvp

if you dont have them you cant even fully counterplay without bans

[dense oyster]

but that just how it is...im on gold rn so pretty much they all have decent speed

but sometimes i have lily who get outspeed by my dokidoki

so just because they pick liily doesnt mean they are guarantee first turn

which come back to speed dif again

[merry zephyr]

https://youtu.be/ZUl2WQvme5s?si=U7dQQyb6Zr4lmaRn

Great video from ronny talking about the CC issue

We don’t have enough tools to fight control, and control units are waaayyyy too strong

And eff res just feels terrible

[broken ginkgo]

They gotta buff alicorn ngl

[merry zephyr]

Alicorn is such a fake shell rn

Not sure why it got nerfed to 2 debuffs at launch

[broken ginkgo]

Idk why, its just another layer of rng on if you debuff the stun or not

[subtle quarry]

Is a full cleanse too op?

[merry zephyr]

It might be a bit strong

Would maybe need some compensation nerfs

[broken ginkgo]

I think it should be 3 debuffs and prioritize stuns

[main ermine]

prioritizing cc would be really good

[merry lantern]

Way too OP, no? Instant complete tempo flip from one shell passive

I think even prioritizing cc would probably be crazier than people think

[subtle quarry]

i mean if we prioritize cc, it might be a full cleanse cuz a couple dots are not gonna swing the fight. but having to go alicorn is the tradeoff no?

[merry lantern]

It has really good sets on it, idk

One of the more flexible shells for sets

[main ermine]

yeah alicorn has great sets

[merry lantern]

Support sets anyway

[subtle quarry]

ahh nvm then. i just oonga boonga cleave anyway

[merry lantern]

I see a lot of Alicorn Lilies these days, presumably for that tempo flip option. Idk if it's worth anything though

Also golden lion ones, dunno where that's from

I saw a really interesting suggestion in the RTA server of making insight just work for res, I think? Leaving gaze? But making it harder to seal off an entire match instantly without massive damage backing you up

By tilting the balance in favor of res

For the opening turns

[lilac wagon]

i run alicorn on mine just because its +20 speed

[burnt elm]

Unironically , sharon has some of the best matrix spreads

[surreal cove]

my main issue with cc, is that cleansing is random.... thats such bad game design. Or atleast it SEEMS random.

[eternal yacht]

I like the idea of this post but a lot of the suggested unit nerfs are extremely heavy handed in my opinion. Several of these units would go from fairly strong to absolute bums very quickly.

The eff res rework is nice though, I feel like that should have been the case since the start.

[cosmic pumice]

I think shells are too busted in this game that I don't think this game will ever be balanced unless they drastically reduce the effect that shells can have. It should be meant to be a little bonus, a little tech to screw opponent over like E7 artifact, and not make a character's kit bat shit insane. I mean codex reseting cooldown right away without any downsides? That's just fundamentally broken. Same to rev, bloodbath, and other lesser use shells as well like outlaw and lighthouse if they have their number changed a bit. The effect is fun in pve and necessary in pve because pve content are way too overtuned for repeatable farming content, but way too good in pvp.

It also helps the games health in the long run, because people can't just spend a lot of stamina just to have their account bricked every balance patch. Take a long hard time to bring shells power level down to set in stone point, and we can start balancing character's kit from there.

[merry zephyr]

nah I think shells are sick. It makes gearing and skill expression with characters way higher

your choice in shell affects so much, and that's really cool imo.

[main ermine]

I agree

Just hell to farm

Fix that and it's cool

[burnt elm]

I see what they mean

shells are kinda overloaded when it comes to where you get a lot of stats and such from

having slight downsides to it would be interesting

like after using codex, your skill goes on cooldown + 3 or something

Stuff like that

because anytime they release an unit with a strong s3, they can codex dump on your face for free

[main ermine]

codex is already somewhat balanced with its ultra long cd though

[burnt elm]

Not really

because you get a spd boost, double your ult

and then if it’s on short cooldown, you cycle back to your ult again

and it has some of the best matrix spread

which is a good and bad thing

[dense oyster]

The speed boost are minimal and its more like early turn shell,because at the next refresh big chance it wont align with your skill

[burnt elm]

It’s additive

i’m just saying

stuff like that leads to a lot of balancing issues down the line

why they had to quickly nerf rev and such

[north shoal]

@merry zephyr only thing I’d change is the part about recruiting (we would take you in CLS main guild)

Rest of it is on point (except cc, outside of two cc users rest feel ass, I’d love for more CCers to be viable outside of the multi hitters (rc77 mio etc)

[merry zephyr]

yeah if it's not a multihit CC user, then it feels terrible

[burnt elm]

Give Nahor deep freeze instead of freeze

[merry zephyr]

which isn't good, because then all future CC character releases almost have to be multihit unless something changes about the way CC works

[burnt elm]

i feel like giving single hitters stronger cc is a good tradeoff

[merry zephyr]

and if a ton of multihit CC characters start coming out, then eff res becomes even worse

current eff res vs. eff acc mechanics need to be changed for sure

[merry zephyr]

I agree that single hitters need something to make them stand out, otherwise they don't feel strong enough

[burnt elm]

make nahor s2 a passive

why not lmao

[lavish phoenix]

Everything's too OP. Every archetype when built correctly would quickly become cancerous (bruisers immortal, cleave oneshots, perma-CC). Another downside to making everything too OP is most of the time the game is decided through draft instead of battle strategy. So when you spectate a tournament most casual spectators would skip through the draft part (even though it's where the mind games happen) to watch the battle (they expect those to be the meat of the game)... only to get one-sided stomps.

[merry zephyr]

totally agree that everything feels too OP and extreme rn. Chip dmg just isn't a thing rn

[balmy sun]

I’m totally fine with single target nuking we kinda have that going for E7 atm but this mass getting one buff and my entire team dying is uh fun

[plain gust]

Sword of convalria was also like this

The strong units do more aoe dmg than weaker single target ones

[surreal cove]

sounds like every RTA gacha i know...

SW and E7 work the same way

if EVERYTHING is op... then EVERYTHING is balanced..

[merry zephyr]

Wasn’t talking about single target dps. Was talking about single hit CC characters

[merry lantern]

Ehh do they though

[dense oyster]

Well sw have those violent set...fkin funny

[merry lantern]

Yeah man Vio and 15% is so funny fr fr

[eternal yacht]

tbh I don't think Massiah is really out of place, he's just unnaturally strong at this point because people are stacking eff res or def% and he hard counters both (and cleave hard counters eff res in general)

Add more hp% bruisers and he floats to a more normal spot but can't expect a FP Holden or a Rahu to survive an ignore defense nuke imo

[burnt elm]

nah sw is pretty balanced tbh

all things considered

You have lots of viable strategies at the top end and bottom end

lots of decision-making and player expression etc etc

so most things can feel strong while having “simpler” kits

Here, there’s less units so everything has to be unique and strong yadda yadda

will improve with more SR and R units added to the pool

[trim terrace]

Yep, have made this same point. There's way too few shells and they're way too impactful. A lot of games come down to how shells line up vs enemy teams

It's a cool idea but they all need to be dialed way back

[main ermine]

adding a new shell dungeon and module dungeon would certainly shake up the meta

although maybe in a few months, seems early for that now

[trim terrace]

Yea that's what I think would be best. They still need to tune down damage and healing though

Bb shouldn't be procing vs 97% of units that can build DPS